Nue Quest Alter Code 6: A Z-Machine Adventure

[Hello Purvis]

> Was her assistant working on it at all?

>She didn't mention who or what was working on it, only that it would be hard for her to say how long it would take to get a translation.

>_

[Kilgamayan]

More stuff, since I'm going to bed soon.

[23:05:57] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Oh, that reminds me
[23:05:58] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,10609.msg702479.html#msg702479
[23:06:01] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Read from there on
[23:06:51] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Forgive shit that doesn't make English sense, I wrote those posts on my phone
[23:07:02] <DracoOmega> I did, already. I'm not sure I fully buy into this 'clash of faith' business, at least in this manner. I do agree that stopping him here only treats a symptom, of course
[23:07:26] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Depends on how he's stopped.
[23:07:39] <DracoOmega> Well, stopping him via force of some kind
[23:07:52] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> If we stop him by freezing him, that treats a symptom. If we stop him buy drinking his Kool-Aid and still coming out on top, that treats the disease.
[23:08:44] <DracoOmega> Perhaps I don't really understand what you mean by the latter. If we bargain with him, and use this to somehow beat him, isn't that SUPPORTING his views?
[23:09:11] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> It depends on what he has planned for when we get there.
[23:09:50] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> I think the bargaining to get to him at all is a means rather than an end, though it's also a pretty powerful demonstration of faith in the capitalist system in its own right.
[23:12:08] <DracoOmega> Howso?
[23:12:29] <DracoOmega> Isn't it a demonstration of the faith in the barter system, that we could gain what progress we made only a result of these metaphysical trades?
[23:13:28] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> If it's the "only" way, then that's not faith in the system, it's a forced choice.
[23:13:46] <DracoOmega> But I still don't see how it serves to convince him it's wrong
[23:14:01] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> [23:09:50] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> I think the bargaining to get to him at all is a means rather than an end
[23:14:16] <DracoOmega> Oh. Then what did you have in mind after that?
[23:14:33] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Get to him, see what he lays out as his test of faith, and beat him at it.
[23:14:54] <DracoOmega> ...did he say anything about a test of faith? Did I miss that bit?
[23:15:43] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> I presume there would be one.
[23:16:43] <DracoOmega> Why? I'm not being facetious here, but what leads you to think so?
[23:17:07] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> A combination of a couple things.
[23:17:11] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> >"I suppose your devotion isn't as strong as you claimed, then,"
[23:17:19] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> That's one of them, when we said there are certian things we wouldn't give up.
[23:17:44] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> There's also the question of what he would hope to prove with a fist fight.
[23:18:02] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> With a little girl that's lacking danmaku, spellcards, and, presumably, her polearm.
[23:18:54] <DracoOmega> Does he have anything to prove in that regard? Couldn't he simply carry on ignoring us, or subdue us if we tried something and had traded away too much power to do it?
[23:19:26] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> He could, but it would accomplish just as much in changing our minds as we would accomplish in changing his by mashing him into the ceiling.
[23:20:09] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> We are historically a pain in the ass to people in power, and we're here to keep on annoying him despite everything that's been thrown in our way so far. We're not going to go away unless he convinces us he's right.
[23:20:13] <DracoOmega> Is he TRYING to change our mind? Or, rather, does he expect anyone's mind to be changed until they live in this world of his for a while? He wouldn't be trying to be so clandestine if he didn't think that MOST people would resist it
[23:20:43] <DracoOmega> Us being stubborn should not be surprising to him
[23:21:28] <DracoOmega> Nor do I think he would think that Nue continuting to be stubborn implies he's wrong, just that we're stubborn. Fanatics are pretty convinced of their right-ness, after all
[23:21:52] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> I'm not sure what either of those has to do with the point I was making, but okay. <_<
[23:22:06] <DracoOmega> It's possible I may still be misunderstanding. I apologize =/
[23:22:21] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> [23:20:09] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> We are historically a pain in the ass to people in power...We're not going to go away unless he convinces us he's right.
[23:23:15] <DracoOmega> Yes, this is probably true. But I don't see how us refusing to be convinced will, in and of itself, change his mind. No matter the extraordinary lengths we go to to remain unconvinced
[23:23:39] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Who said anything about us resisting changing his mind? This is all justification for why I don't think he has a fist fight planned.
[23:24:10] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Because it wouldn't convince us he's right, and it owuldn't make us go away, unless he's prepared to kill us outright, and that would lead to bad bad things from a lot of other people in Gensokyo.
[23:24:18] <DracoOmega> I thought you were saying that once we got in melee range, he would have some test of faith for us that we could somehow 'win'
[23:24:28] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Pretty much.
[23:24:45] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> It is the opportunity both of us want to shatter the faith of the other.
[23:25:04] <DracoOmega> And, as I said, how exactly are we supposed to shatter his faith?
[23:25:19] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> If I knew that, I would have commanded us into the war zone by now.
[23:25:33] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> But I don't know that, largely because I don't know what the test would be, largely because we're not there yet. >_>
[23:26:08] <DracoOmega> Fair enough. I guess I don't seem him posing any situation for us that we could somehow solve in a way that changes his mind. At least one that wouldn't already apply at this distance
[23:26:55] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> I do, if only because this game's premise would be pretty dumb if it were impossible to change his mind.
[23:27:15] <DracoOmega> It may be, but I don't think that however we're able to do it requires getting into melee range first
[23:27:35] <DracoOmega> And whatever it is we're supposed to do could be done without bargaining for physical distance
[23:27:51] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> You wanna find a logical loophole of an insane person that's so dedicated he's changing reality?
[23:28:07] <DracoOmega> Well, I sort of figure that would be what's required, unfortunately
[23:28:22] <DracoOmega> Incidentally, did you ever get a translation of the sword inscription from Patchy?
[23:28:25] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> What guarantee do you have that he won't respond with anything other than "Think what you will", anyway?
[23:28:28] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> No, she can't read Celtic.
[23:28:34] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> At least, not off the top of her head.
[23:28:46] <DracoOmega> She said she was setting Petit on the problem
[23:28:49] <DracoOmega> Well, she said she MIGHT
[23:29:17] <DracoOmega> I guess the question was never asked while you were at the SDM the following day?
[23:29:40] <Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> I honestly do not remember any of this.

Which lead to the previous two commands.

For the record, I think Nue's 'faith' is not so much faith that the capitalist system is the best system, but that the proposed new system is a terrible system given the initial hyper-imbalance and method of bringing it about. To be perfectly honest, if everyone started with the same spark volume and same ability to harvest them, I imagine I wouldn't have a problem with it as a player, much less as Nue.

[GuyYouMetOnline]

Or we could try this:

>"You claim that you're doing this for the good of everyone, correct? Not for your own benefit?"
>If yes: "Then proove it. Proove that you're not doing this for your own benefit."
>When he asks how to do so: "Simple. You can proove it by right here, right now, trading away your ability to benefit from this change. You can do it by trading away your ability to harvest the sparks."

[Kilgamayan]

I'm not sure he feels like he has anything to prove, but I suppose it's worth a shot.

[Hello Purvis]

>"You claim that you're doing this for the good of everyone, correct? Not for your own benefit?"
>If yes: "Then proove it. Proove that you're not doing this for your own benefit."
>When he asks how to do so: "Simple. You can proove it by right here, right now, trading away your ability to benefit from this change. You can do it by trading away your ability to harvest the sparks."

>"Those are not mutually exclusive," he says. "My goal is to improve the world, now and forever. In this, we shall all be uplifted."
>When you press him to prove it, he grins slightly. "Proof does not work that way, Miss Houjuu. I would put it to you to prove I am not doing it for exactly the reasons I say. You'll find it is impossible to conclusively prove a lack of a thing."
>Rinnosuke frowns as you suggest a way. "Perhaps you would take a bird's feathers, next?" he says. "Would you help yourself to my soul, perhaps? I hear that is becoming fashionable in some circles."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

Anything on any of that? From anyone?

> Is that the first time Rinnosuke has changed his expression?

[Hello Purvis]

> Is that the first time Rinnosuke has changed his expression?

>Maybe. You're a lot closer now, and can see his face better.

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> Take a look at Rinnosuke's hands as best we can from our current position.

[Hello Purvis]

> Take a look at Rinnosuke's hands as best we can from our current position.

>Rinnosuke's hands are folded in front of him, fingers interlaced. You think he may be holding something between his thumbs and forefingers, something long and flat. The table obscures his lower fingers.

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> We can't tell the color of his hands from here?

[Hello Purvis]

> We can't tell the color of his hands from here?

>They're rather pale. While you've never sat around to watch someone freeze to death, you have the suspicion he's on his way at least a little.

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "So...if I do decide to do this exchange thing to get to you, would you allow an audience member?"

[Hello Purvis]

> "So...if I do decide to do this exchange thing to get to you, would you allow an audience member?"

>"They would be as limited as you are now," he says.

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "Yeah, I'd expect as much. I just wanted to know if you'd have a direct objection for some reason."

[Hello Purvis]

> "Yeah, I'd expect as much. I just wanted to know if you'd have a direct objection for some reason."

>"To be honest, I would prefer that it just be the two of us," he says.

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "All right. I doubt you'd ask for the thing I'd want someone down here for anyway, given your stated lack of interest in other things."
> "And while I'm thinking about it, after this is over, regardless of the result, would you object to some more alcohol in return for that Tiger? I'd understand if you didn't trust comestibles coming from me, but it's probably the most useful thing to you I have to offer. Unless you're a decent lockpick, I guess."

[Hello Purvis]

> "All right. I doubt you'd ask for the thing I'd want someone down here for anyway, given your stated lack of interest in other things."
> "And while I'm thinking about it, after this is over, regardless of the result, would you object to some more alcohol in return for that Tiger? I'd understand if you didn't trust comestibles coming from me, but it's probably the most useful thing to you I have to offer. Unless you're a decent lockpick, I guess."

>"I will require six bottles of the prior quality," says Rinnosuke, "As repayment for the damages."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "Okay, I'll make restocking those a priority. Any flavor preferences?"

[Hello Purvis]

> "Okay, I'll make restocking those a priority. Any flavor preferences?"

>"An even mix will do," he says.

>_

[GuyYouMetOnline]

Why aren't we countering his 'proove I'm not doing it for the sake of others' claim? We do, after all, have plenty that would seem to indicate that he is doing it for his own benefit.

Also, my idea with that was based on the assumption that Rinnosuke would decline the proposal. We'd press him more, the idea being to get him to ask himself if what he's doing truly is for everyone's benefit. I expect that he'd say it was, but if I remember correctly, getting him to question himself would be enough to break the effect.

[Kilgamayan]

Do you have proof that he's not doing it for the sake of others, outside of evidence we've already mentioned?

[GuyYouMetOnline]

Proof, no. Evidence, yes. Proof would really only be obtainable through mind-reading, but since everyone else seems to have this aversion to asking Satori for anything, I didn't even bother mentioning it.

[Kilgamayan]

If you think you have an idea for how to get him to question himself, such a specific question of morality that hasn't been addressed yet, then go ahead and ask it. I don't think repeatedly reminding him that his methods are highly questionable is going to do it, given he's said he's made peace with that, and he knows we're gonna try whatever we can to get him to stop, but I may have missed something else.

[GuyYouMetOnline]

Well, the conversation's moved on, so I think we've missed our chance (although another one may present itself).

[Kilgamayan]

We usually go smoothly back and forth between conversations because Purvis knows it's not one person with one set of ideas playing. If you have an idea, go for it.

[GuyYouMetOnline]

'Kay.

>"I never said that you would not benefit from this change. If everyone benefits, then you obviously would as well. My concern, though, is that you're doing it because of the benefits it would offer you, not because of those it would offer others. After all, you would be the only one able to fully use your new system, at least for a while. That makes your claim of motive a bit suspicious. If you truly care more about the change's overall benefits then you do about its benefits to you, then trade me your ability to benefit from it. If you do that, I will accept what you say, and will not act against you any further."

[Rin Kagamine]

1. Prove, not proove.
2. Honestly I could care less about trying to do anything with Rinnosuke right now and would be fully content to leave him to freeze to death under the assumption that one of two things happens: he either actually freezes to death and we are now free to solve the incident at our leisure or he values his own life highly enough that he stops his current conversion and goes upstairs to warm up during which time he'd be captured and likely incapacitated by Byakuren and Mokou.
3. I propose leaving him now because we'll never be able to reason with him ever, so our only options are either action by accepting his deal or inaction on our part by waiting for the cold to affect him.  If we're just going to wait, I'd rather leave entirely and head back to Tewi and get an absolutely full confession out of her starting at his first contact with Rinnosuke right up until she lost our cards.
4. Because Tewi kept referring to the debtkeeper in the plural as opposed to the singular, so there is a chance that Rinnosuke is not acting alone in all this.  A slim chance of course, but I'm entertaining all possibilities.  I can't see him as being roped into this though, so he'd have to be an equal partner if there are any others.

Then again, considering that the deal was presented at all is pretty much proof that we should take it.  So uh, w/e

[Hello Purvis]

>"I never said that you would not benefit from this change. If everyone benefits, then you obviously would as well. My concern, though, is that you're doing it because of the benefits it would offer you, not because of those it would offer others. After all, you would be the only one able to fully use your new system, at least for a while. That makes your claim of motive a bit suspicious. If you truly care more about the change's overall benefits then you do about its benefits to you, then trade me your ability to benefit from it. If you do that, I will accept what you say, and will not act against you any further."

>"Perhaps next you shall ask a bear for its teeth?" says Rinnosuke. "Moreover, how do you propose to afford such a thing?"

>_

[GuyYouMetOnline]

>"That's not the point. What I want is a demonstration. I intend to return the ability to you once I am satisfied, but you, of course, don't know if I'm telling the truth. So think of it as a show of resolve. Are you willing to sacrifice your own position in your new system in order to bring that system about?"

Yeah, I don't think this is going to work (we really did miss our chance), so do whatever.

[Hello Purvis]

>"That's not the point. What I want is a demonstration. I intend to return the ability to you once I am satisfied, but you, of course, don't know if I'm telling the truth. So think of it as a show of resolve. Are you willing to sacrifice your own position in your new system in order to bring that system about?"

>"It saddens me to say, then, that you miss the point if you were to cast away whether you could afford what you desire," says Rinnosuke. "Such things are not to be disregarded merely because you find them inconvenient."

>_