[WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS

~Beyond the Border~ > Genji's Battle Arena

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Rikter:

--- Quote from: Dular on August 01, 2011, 06:36:32 PM ---Edit: On a side note, can we do an HJ first? Just so we know where everything is and yadda yadda, for the future?

--- End quote ---

The triggers and dummy abilities are actually organized relatively well (Items are the worst though) so it wouldn't be to hard to do both. HJ is just bloated values on everything anyways.

I would personally rather try a balanced version because I personally find HJ unfun but i would gladly do it first if it means people would discuss balanced as well

kactaplb:
HJ plz.

Is it really all that much of a problem? If we don't like it, we just simply ban it(camera,etc). Or just not be jerks? This "balance" shouldn't change the way we play.

Also, dangerous road, trying to balance map yourself. Inb4 more raeg, this time internal. Blaming dots devs is all fun and games after all cuz who cares anyway.
Anywho, good luck.

Rikter:
Okay so after trying to make the map not screw itself over and load how I wanted it all I managed was a map with some changes I wanted but no trees anywhere at all and broken strings everywhere resulting in no hotkeys.

That should not be a problem much longer though and I should at least have something to show. After some discussion and derping around in jasscraft these changes are what I think most of us will agree with for a basic first release.

Rumia F slow reduced to 15%/22.5%/30%/37.5% from 25%/30%/35%/40%
Rumia W rescaled to +3 per hero kill with no bonus STR for creeps due to immediate limitations may be readded if needed - line 21912 through 21920
Rumia W cooldown changed to 54/45/36 seconds
Wriggle D rescaled to (20+lvl*5)/(30+lvl*7)/(40+lvl*9)/(50+lvl*11) - Line 25657 (Dular's scaling idea)
Wriggle W reverted to 3/2/1 fade time
Murasa R doesn't check for Mokou's D for scaling. -Line 26574
Shou W deals damage as it should have. 220/330/440 -> 250/375/500
Disable all Physical Damage can crit Trigger

These are just soley focused on Rumia and Wriggle and the devs being best devs. Rumia's changes I discussed with M-Reimu and recived some opinions from Dular on the previous ideas for changes. Crit change just seems to be disliked in general

I want to implement some of these ideas of my own and probably a few of Dular's/M-Reimu's but I would like to see ideas that other people could think of because several things could still be considered for a first release.

Suwako reverted to 315 ms
Aya R Chance to activate changed from 24% to 20% and damage scaling changed from 20 + AGI * 0.8/28 + AGI * 1.0/36 + AGI * 1.2/44 + AGI * 1.4 to AGI*.7/AGI/AGI*1.3/AGI*1.6
Remove Aya's current W and replace it with her current C only.
Momiji D wolves rescaled to 400/450/500/550 HP with 1 Regen per second and 0 armor.

Captain Infinity:
I should probably be more involved in these silly changes and such, and be more active about DotS overall.

FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, I seriously suggest you guys reconsider and rethink things before you even begin to try and make changes. I don't think you guys thought this through nearly as much as it needs to be and I'm having doubts about this already.

Secondly, Wriggle's W isn't what made her OP, which I've been saying since the beginning. What made her OP was her current D (I at first didn't think it was bad until I managed to get a score of something like 46 kills and like 8 deaths or so, and considering it's me, the worst player, that's something huge so I admit I was wrong there, Amra, Dormio) and her ability to farm incredibly fast (due to beetles and great last hitting ability) combined with her forcing people to buy detection items (that alone wouldn't really be too bad, but when you got her being able to get a Watermelon sword in 10 mins or less easily while her opponents have to buy baby Tengus/wards that's an issue).

Thirdly Yuyuko and Suwako's MS boosts were pretty pointless and didn't affect gameplay much, why did we bother with reverting them?

Fourthly and definitely more importantly than any other point, Dormio you suck ApharmdB why did you have to do this qq, I was hoping it wouldn't come to this really, which was one of the reasons I never bothered with the deprotection of the map.

ApharmdB:
Orz... I didn't set out tinkering with the map with the goal of balancing it or anything :(

I should explain that I initially deprotected it to get at the stats. I wasn't too successful at all, but I did get to read the stats off the map at least. Didn't do anything with the map nor did I want to do anything with the map for the longest time, until the devs started dragging their feet on the Yamame bug. Then I learnt some JASS to fix the thing and of course that involved learning a bit more about map deprotection. Then I found DotA templates and vJASS and before my hols ended, I had a working map with Reimu in it, with Fantasy Seal, Evil Sealing Circle, Duplex Barrier and FANTASY HEAVEN, AS SHE SHOULD HAVE DAMMIT. Now I want to learn vJASS.. HELP ME STOP THIS MADNESS. Anyway, I don't know much about all this and Rikter would probably know that I'm also just tinkering with things and figuring things out myself at the moment. I just figured that since others have use of whatever I've figured out over the course of the last two months or so, I might as well share it.

Regarding my opinions on DotS balance, I don't agree with the idea that DotS can be balanced by tweaking numbers around. That's one reason why even though the idea crossed my mind a long time ago, I held off on giving it any more attention. Another reason is that I get the idea that while some of us rage at the game, we don't really care enough about the imbalance since we just cool off and come back for more anyway. It's a silly silly game. But the most important reason is, of course, ethics. That's why I've never shared my full listfile for the map.

Now, maybe number tweaking works for some heros and items, but not all. The concepts behind some heros and items are so bad that I don't think any amount of number-tweaking will help - Satori, Aya, Camera, Katana come to mind immediately. Ace and Rikter are probably finding out that even number tweaking isn't easy and how easy it is to make players rage. It's far too easy to swing things the other way and nerf something from being horribly overpowered to the pits of uselessness with just a few minor changes, e.g. Rumia. That's why I suggested that if they do carry on with this, they ought to get input from a select few experienced individuals instead of opening discussion up to anyone and everyone and do extensive playtesting because some skills are only really clearly broken when put in practice and combined with other skills from the same hero - Wriggle's D wouldn't be so brutal if she didn't also have permanent invisibility that prevented her from being attacked normally. Going one step further involves altering elements of the characters' designs (seriously, the Komeiji sisters need help) and for that, I like to look to Valve's Axiomatic Design philosophy - set a list of principles that the game should adhere to, e.g. hero abilities must show evidence of their canon character design (haha Koishi), or all heros must be pose a significant threat in end game team battles (haha Satori), and ensure that skills/items/stats are designed with that in mind (definitely not easy!) But hey, it's a fun learning experience if nothing else, and who knows, they might even eventually come up with a better Touhou DotA on their own, so why hold back on the knowledge (about map deprotecting) right? I learnt JASS by mostly by staring at DotS triggers myself.

Well, that's a whole load of words with nothing really relevant to the topic, so... /end

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