Loved

[Kuma]

I'm pretty sure it's about abusive relationships or something.
Like how that one VN, I think it was called "air pressure", was about drug addiction, but everyone thinks it's about cutting yourself

[JT]

On the actual topic: I find no problem with the existence of these artsy games.  If a particular artist chooses to express himself through a somewhat interactive game, so be it, that's his artistic choice.  It may not necessarily make for a fun game, but it still has a right to exist as a piece of art.

I don't have a problem with artsy games. I dislike this particular game, though, because its "artsy" elements are shallow and devoid of meaning. As has already been pointed out by several people, the whole obedience/disobedience dynamic is pretty flat and inconsequential, and it's all the game has.

Not trying to seem harsh. I just feel like the guy who made this was just trying to seem artsy rather than actually say something.

[Stuffman]

Now, Eversion, that has a narrative without having to throw abuse at the player

Define abuse, because that game is evil :V

[Fightest]

Define abuse, because that game is evil :V

Evil? I don't know what you're talking about! It's all happy sunshine and rainbows! A fun world of jumping-puzzle adventure! Of course, best played alone in a dark room, for optimal enjoyment.

[Helion]

Evil? I don't know what you're talking about! It's all happy sunshine and rainbows!

AND HANDS
THE HANDS MAN

[Krimmydoodle]

AND HANDS
THE HANDS MAN

*ahem, we now return to our regularly scheduled discussion.

I dislike this particular game, though, because its "artsy" elements are shallow and devoid of meaning.

Not trying to seem harsh. I just feel like the guy who made this was just trying to seem artsy rather than actually say something.

And therein lies the problem with art.  It's all open to interpretation, and whether you choose to read into a bunch of symbolism or just see it as a pointless arrangement of pixels on your screen, no side is necessarily correct.  That said, I think it's better to assume that he was indeed trying to say something, even if his execution in conveying his message is imperfect.  There's nothing wrong with not finding meaning in someone's work, but it's awfully dismissive to accuse someone of "trying to seem artsy" when there's possibly something much deeper at the root of it all.

[Fightest]

but it's awfully dismissive to accuse someone of "trying to seem artsy" when there's possibly something much deeper at the root of it all.

I would like to think that the people here are capable of making a sound judgement on a piece of work. Now, professional art critics we ain't (unless someone knows something I don't know), but I'm certain we come close, hence the accusation of "trying to seem artsy," I feel, is valid.

[Krimmydoodle]

The distinction I'm trying to make is the difference between judging the art and judging the artist.  The art is something we can observe and make a judgement on.  We can pick at concrete words and images and analyze them for meaning (or the lack of such).  The artist's mind, and the original ideas contained within it, however, are more abstract, and are things we lack the ability to perceive with our own senses.  They can't necessarily be perfectly grasped, and we can't judge something that lacks a more definite form.

[Fightest]

The distinction I'm trying to make is the difference between judging the art and judging the artist.  The art is something we can observe and make a judgement on.  We can pick at concrete words and images and analyze them for meaning (or the lack of such).  The artist's mind, and the original ideas contained within it, however, are more abstract, and are things we lack the ability to perceive with our own senses.  They can't necessarily be perfectly grasped, and we can't judge something that lacks a more definite form.

Perhaps, but we can certainly judge the artist's ability to get across whatever he is trying to say. In this case I feel it can then be said that either the artist's presentation of the idea was clumsy, or that he had a poor grasp on it in the first place. Now we have arrived at the distinction we cannot really make without further evidence, but neither of the two options is positive. Still, it's possible to optimistically lean to the former conclusion.

[Suikama]

I'm pretty sure it's about abusive relationships or something.
Like how that one VN, I think it was called "air pressure", was about drug addiction, but everyone thinks it's about cutting yourself

Air Pressure was cool though because it was totally unexpected, yet it still made sense (mostly :V)

[WHMZakeri]

The end result is much like that of a painting. If you stare head on, you can see the imagery within and all of it's beauty, but if you look from the side all you see is a thin layer of paint.

I understand if the message or imagery you got from the game gives you a bad feeling since I'm certain it's suppose to give you a bad feeling, But to then complain about the game engine and how you wouldn't play more than twice... Makes it seem like you're intentionally missing the point. When using games as your canvas, the gameplay is basically the equivalent of the picture frame in the case I made above in quotes. It's just a nice placeholder to compliment the picture, and prevent people from staring at the angle where it's just "A thin layer of paint."

The Artist get's his point across fine enough, considering all of the thoughtful posts made earlier in the topic, and it's obviously invoked a strong feeling in people (Which is the ultimate goal of any piece of media.) so you can't say that the artist failed to get their point across. All of the pieces needed to wrap the player into those feelings are there - The multiple choice questions, the written abuse, the sometimes absurd commands, and they all all used to give you a single, certain feeling that it nurtures all game.

Complaining that the gameplay is only added to the game to serve the above conventions, rather than to be exciting, fun, and to be able to stand out on it's own ... it's sounds like people are trying to imply the artist is a snooty know-nothing just because his picture frame isn't ornate enough.

[Helion]

This game did manage to get a message across, which boils down to: "would you kill yourself because you were ordered to or if you believed some good was to come out of it?". To me, this question is both about normal life and about religion. Indeed, the part of the game where you're ordered to suicide seemed a pretty good parallel for religion: following orders towards an unknown end, in hopes of a reward much, much later on. And the question is: would you do it?

[Fightest]

To me, this question is both about normal life and about religion. Indeed, the part of the game where you're ordered to suicide seemed a pretty good parallel for religion: following orders towards an unknown end, in hopes of a reward much, much later on. And the question is: would you do it?

You... have a very interesting take on religion, there.

[Helion]

You... have a very interesting take on religion, there.

I know that my description of religion is simplistic and incomplete at best, but please do try to look at what I'm saying.
EDIT: I also had one religion in particular in mind, when looking at the suicide part.

[RainfallYoshi]

As some other people have said, I see the game as portraying 2 different ways to go about life.

The first way is to go by society's mold. You follow what is generally acceptable. You follow the expectations that are put forth to you. You keep yourself safe by making yourself blend in. While your world and goals might be crystal clear and it will be very hard to stray, the path is dull and gray. It's monotonous. There's nothing but what you are told.

The second way is to go by your own beliefs and ideals. You don't accepts anybody's expectations, you form your own. You don't mold into society to blend in. Your world is colorful and exciting, but it's very hard to see where to go. The path is blurry and hard to see. You will probably stumble and stray off the path many times.

I think the idea that the author is trying to get across is this: Do you accept what you are told and obey to form a clear path and goal? Or do you stumble and fall as you clear your own path ahead?

[Fightest]

The second way is to go by your own beliefs and ideals. You don't accepts anybody's expectations, you form your own. You don't mold into society to blend in. Your world is colorful and exciting, but it's very hard to see where to go. The path is blurry and hard to see. You will probably stumble and stray off the path many times.

The thing is, there is no other way to follow "one's own" path other than to capriciously and systematically do the exact opposite of what is being commanded. At some point it stops being one's own choice, instead becoming a simple tantrum of disobedience, one giant "you're not the boss of me" scenario. Even worse, in terms of commanding the player to do stuff, this other path is as equally manipulative as the obedient one - the player is still utterly controlled by the commands, he's merely doing exactly the opposite thing this time.

Ultimately, by presenting the player with choice, it completely strips it from him by making it utterly binary. People growing up in the Soviet Union tell stories such as this - during elections, there was only one person to vote for. You had a choice - you could vote for him, or you could not vote. I probably do not need to explain that this is not actually choice, and the same applies to this game: there's no way to go against the grain, as the grain is all there is, no matter how you might try to travel along it. Bioshock presents this beautifully and with a healthy dose of self-irony. Loved attempts to present the point straight, and, I feel, falls far short of being able to really pull it off.

[RainfallYoshi]

Well to be quite honest, it would be rather hard to make the concept less binary in a small game like this. It's either obey or not. Obviously real life is a lot less black and white than this, and I think the author is trying to get this point across in what way he is able within the confines of creating a short, simple game.

[Fightest]

Well to be quite honest, it would be rather hard to make the concept less binary in a small game like this. It's either obey or not. Obviously real life is a lot less black and white than this, and I think the author is trying to get this point across in what way he is able within the confines of creating a short, simple game.

Yeah, the expectations implied in my statement are exceedingly steep, you're right. Still, I don't think the author put quite as much thought as he should have into the subject matter.