Author Topic: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?  (Read 3332 times)

Paul Debrion

  • Highroller
  • Back again for more!
Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« on: June 18, 2010, 06:12:57 PM »
This was partly inspired by this blog post:
http://iloapp.quelsolaar.com/blog/news?NewComment&post=70#
Quote
This is the key to procedural game design; let the player improvise. Instead of having one key to the castle, have five, then it doesn't matter if a few of them are in the castle. Statistics will tell you that it will work even if you cant actually test it. It doesn't even matter if the players can figure out that you can just climb a tree and jump over the castle walls and skip the need for a key altogether. What would be a broken game under normal circumstances becomes a better one. What does it matter if the player can skip your puzzle if you didn't spend any time making it? The goal is not to have the player see what you have created, but to feel like THEY came up with their own solution. That creates a true emergent gameplay experience.



In most video games you usually have well defined problems which have well defined solutions which have well defined results. Even most so called "open ended" or "sandbox" games don't really change this much. They usually just have more well defined problems, with more well defined solutions, with more well defined results. The difference is they just run in parallel.

That can seem to be a good thing sometimes. I would be a bit frustrated if I ran around for half an hour to find a switch to open a door only to find that it didn't work for whatever random reason. However, I also can't help but think that it's also holding things back. There is this underlying sense of monotony that comes with a lot of games, and I can't help but think some things would be better with a little chaos involved. Perhaps some things would be more interesting if they weren't so neat and tidy.

One thing I've liked about X-Com: UFO Defense, Terror from the Deep, and Apocalypse is that missions are very random. It wasn't about finding a solution that always worked, it was about finding a solution that worked most of the time. Every once in a while you got a mission that was truly not winnable, but that made things more interesting. You didn't have to succeed at every single mission, the definition of success in that game was more flexible than that and as long as you won most of the time you were doing fine. What makes the game fun is that there isn't a single definite always-successful solution and it leaves you room to come up with your own way of doing things. It means that you're not stopped completely just because you can't a certain single task or mission well.

I also liked this sort of thing in tactical shooters like Rainbow Six 3 and SWAT 4 with random placement of enemies. Again, it wasn't about finding solutions that always worked, it was about finding one that was more likely to work. Even with the best tactics didn't guarentee success on every single playthrough. Sometimes some tango would be in the right place at the right time to get the right shot to really screw you over, but that was part of the experience. It causes some frustration here and there, but it makes for a lot of re-playability. You play the same missions over and over to refine your methods and tactics in order to achieve ever greater probability of success.


Some games have tried to go even further with this with procedural or randomized level layouts, but a lot of the time they seem to be limited by the fact that they always have to check that everything is doable, and their definition of "solvable" is so narrow that the end result doesn't have as much variety as it could have.

However, what if not every puzzle, quest, or path has to be passable? If the game was open ended in that there were multiple ways to solve the same problem, you wouldn't have to make sure that they were all possible. In that case you'd just have to make sure that they were solvable most of the time and that most of the solutions generated would be possible, then statistically you'd always have several solutions that would work.

I think if games could really go beyond the idea of simply having a single problem with a single solution with a single result, then it can open up all sorts of interesting possibilities. What do you think?





« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 08:01:52 PM by Professor Paul1290 »
I'll come up with an evil scheme later. First, it's time to build a giant robot!

You can't have a good evil scheme without a giant robot!

Third Eye Lem

  • Time Ticker
  • Castle Bal
Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 07:07:30 PM »
It would potentially be a good idea, yes, but the problems with multiple solutions is that one solution may be easier than the other, but not always the easiest one. Players could still get bottlenecked into a specific solution because the others could be more difficult, or they don't know how to execute a specific solution.

Paul Debrion

  • Highroller
  • Back again for more!
Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 07:30:28 PM »
It would potentially be a good idea, yes, but the problems with multiple solutions is that one solution may be easier than the other, but not always the easiest one. Players could still get bottlenecked into a specific solution because the others could be more difficult, or they don't know how to execute a specific solution.

I don't really see this as a "problem". I actually think this is a good thing.

It wouldn't be very interesting if you tried to enforce uniform difficulty among all the solutions to a problem. Not only would this be absurdly difficult, but it would sort of defeat the point of multiple solutions and trying to generate them procedurally to begin with.
Now if you happen to have an easy way through that consistently and predictably shows up every single time then you may have to tweak a few things, but one-offs should be treated as a welcome change of pace, not a as a problem to fix. If the player can recognize and take advantage of such an opportunity then they should be rewarded for it.

Your solutions shouldn't all have to be very obvious or immediately either. Again you want to reward players for being observant and taking advantage of opportunities. Not everyone goes into the sewer to save Ford Shick when they first play Deus Ex, and it wouldn't be as interesting if everyone did.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 07:36:00 PM by Professor Paul1290 »
I'll come up with an evil scheme later. First, it's time to build a giant robot!

You can't have a good evil scheme without a giant robot!

Third Eye Lem

  • Time Ticker
  • Castle Bal
Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 08:08:12 PM »
True, I'm just saying that care has to be made when placing multiple paths for players to follow. But hey, I'd be willing to play a game if it gave me that kind of freedom.

MysTeariousYukari

  • Nomnomnom~
  • Hooray~
Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2010, 04:33:38 AM »
Freedom like that, when done well(of course) is awesome. "Instead of having one key to the castle, have five, then it doesn't matter if a few of them are in the castle. Statistics will tell you that it will work even if you cant actually test it. It doesn't even matter if the players can figure out that you can just climb a tree and jump over the castle walls and skip the need for a key altogether."

Freedom like that, is awesome. Heck, I'll make up reasoning for either option to make you consider that option.

Get the key: You can have a lower battle rate/less enemies to deal with when busting through the castle, or access to a decent shop and a save point at the start.
Skip the key, jump the wall: More enemies to deal with, but might allow an over-all faster path to the target in the castle.

Sorta like that, your given the option to get a key or jump the wall, jumping the wall is faster overall, but has a higher risk, getting the key takes longer, but the risk is lower. That is what you mean, right?

Azure Lazuline

  • Looooove!!
  • PM me for free huggles and love!
    • Entanma Project - indie game development
Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2010, 10:20:59 PM »
You have a very interesting and valid point. I can't think of any games that do exactly what you're saying, but the first thing that came to mind was Metroid (specifically: Super, Zero Mission, and Prime). Under normal circumstances, you get most items in a fairly fixed order. However, there are glitches that let you bypass things like that, so you're free to do the game in whatever order you want, skipping most items.
This  "sequence breaking" is extremely fun, and it's one of the main reasons I play Metroid games - on multiple playthroughs, there's always new ways to do things, especially if you take glitching into account. The alternate methods might be harder, but they make other sections of the game easier or faster (such as skipping a boss entirely), so there's lots of choice and reasoning involved.
An entire game based on this sequence breaking would be amazing, and I might try making one sometime...

Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 05:45:17 AM »
Dynamic Systems did that unintentionally; if you check their walkthrough, their solutions are all complicated, when in reality you can just put a bounce block underneath the ball and get it inside the hoop in 3 seconds...

That's basically what made the game fun for me, thinking that the programmer was somewhat braindead...

...Or maybe that's just me :/

Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 01:45:43 AM »
Still waiting on a PC adaptation of DND where you can have over 100 choices for each encounter.


"The gate to the castle is locked!?"
You decide to:
1. Find another way around.
2. Brute force it.
3. Use a divination spell to find out that there is no castle.  It's all an illusion.
4. Cast a teleportation spell.
5. Tunnel underneath it with 60-meter Gnomish drill and enter through the basement.
6. Give up the quest and leave.
7. Burn the castle and hope whatever you were looking for remains intact.
8. Wait for the gate to become unlocked.(?)
9. Nuke it from orbit. (With 87 bajillion meteors of course.)

Helion

  • I am the very model of a scientist salarian
Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2010, 12:36:11 PM »
I think spelunky is a perfect example of emergent gameplay. While there is quite often a clear way to the exit, you'll find walls, and you'll use whatever tools you find to break through and avoid traps.

moozooh

  • Your grandfather
    • Touhou world record tracker
Re: Does tab A always have to fit in slot B?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2010, 09:27:14 PM »
Roguelikes proved this point decades ago, it's just that they have a persistent problem that turns most people off: playing such a game by its rules (random starting characteristics, no continuation upon death) without any attempts to modify them takes by far the biggest balls it can ever take in a videogame world. This is like an arcade game that is highly random, highly taxing on brainpower, and very long, all at the same time. Some games also cleverly implement things analogous to rank in arcade games, where the better you play the tougher the enemies become. It is truly an awesome genre of games that is so often and so undeservedly overlooked. Spelunky owes everything that makes it such a cool game to this genre.

Super Metroid was one of the first games (or maybe the first) that actually legitimized sequencebreaking. It would urge you to take a more-or-less fixed route at first, but as you beat the game and see the attract mode demos, it dawns upon you that there's a gajillion of undocumented abilities that change the game completely and make it possible to have at least 2-3 solutions to every obstacle on your way. This was why the game was so great and this was why Castlevania went that exact way with SotN (which, aside from extremely poor power balance, did everything perfectly in that respect).

I still play Super from time to time, and maintain a trick page about it on TASVideos.org, which is, even though incomplete, by far the most comprehensive list of advanced Super Metroid techniques on the web. Needless to say I came to dislike Fusion after I realized it's completely and utterly linear in pretty much every respect. It's a Zelda game, not a Metroid game. And Retro were a bunch of douches for artificially limiting Prime series' sequencebreaking. That was an utterly retarded thing to do, as if they didn't even understand what made Super and Prime as good and lasting as they had proven to be.

But there is another point to consider. Take Scribblenauts, the game that was initially heralded as the most impressive sandbox game released to date, with lots of lasting appeal, etc., which seemed far-fetched initially (because making such claims is a pretty stupid thing to do, as history has proven repeatedly). And what was the result? The game is a one-trick pony. As soon as the novelty wears off you realize there is no challenge whatsoever because there are always several obvious solutions that work 99% of the time. A good puzzle game would never make its solutions obvious past the first few levels, which is precisely why everything known as a good puzzle game has lasting appeal. The guys that screamed how great Scribblenauts was at release should've known such a simple thing.

Another classic example of excessive open-endedness ruining replayability is Portal. I mean, I know Valve has to cater to people who aren't that good with puzzles to expand their audience, but hardly anybody denies that the only challenge the game presented initially was technical (doing a sequence of movements in a short time frame), and not conceptual. The puzzles were, in fact, really really simple. If not for the great atmosphere, humor, and challenge levels (which were hardly a challenge to speak of, but still far better than the original versions), I wouldn't even like it at all. The game was only made fun by artificially making it more challenging, like limiting the amount of portals per map, or playing it for speed (and thus facilitating more efficient solutions). I'm now waiting for Portal 2 with a hope that it'll make things more interesting from the get-go.

What does that mean? I think that having several solutions to any given problem is a good thing. But human attention and love are still needed to make solving problems fun. Fun comes from challenge (as a reward) and the fact that you've come up with something that works (as an affirmation of your capability, which overly simple games rather tend to insult). Procedural design with lots of leeway thrown in will never by itself grant the game its replay value. Spelunky would have been a forgettable experience for me if not for the challenge and the fact that I've stopped playing it for survival as soon as I beat it the first time. Since then I only played it for speed, and achieved remarkable results. I purposefully played the game the only way it was fun for me from that point, which is the reason it never had a chance to become boring.

On the other hand, if a game is deep, challenging, and allows for applications of out-of-the-box thinking well, like ADoM or Nethack, it becomes a remarkable experience that makes learning it a neverending process, because you will always stumble upon a thing you haven't tried before. I wish more games (obviously aside from puzzles, since it's their job to begin with) were like that. Since Super Metroid, Fallout 2 has probably come the closest. Aside from that? Dunno, Worms? Out of indie games, Within the Deep Forest and Iji have done the best, I believe.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 09:38:48 PM by moozooh »
<nintendonut888> Mountain of Faith, or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb."