Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Bunbunmaru News~ => Front Page Headlines => Topic started by: Letty Whiterock on February 14, 2011, 02:57:40 pm

Title: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Letty Whiterock on February 14, 2011, 02:57:40 pm
http://kourindou.exblog.jp/14218252/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/0003-89-10/tohou-project-creator-restricts-commercial-works-anime

Quote from: Anime News Network
"Team Shanghai Alice," the creator of the Touhou Project dōjin (self-published) game series, posted revised 2011 guidelines for the use of copyrighted Touhou Project materials on Monday. The creator asked those who wish to make commercial goods based on Touhou Project to request permission.

He asked that the applicants exercise "discretion" in regards to commercial goods with sexual connotations (such as dakimakura or hugging pillows with sexual connotations). He later clarified that the guideline on sexual content applied only to commercial goods, and said that he does not think that the existing noncommercial dōjin contents have been problematic so far.

He then specifically restricted the development of commercial anime projects. He added that the new restriction applies to "cel animation"; the restriction did not apply to works created with 3D software or to illustrations and special effects.

The creator also placed restrictions on the sale of works — both dōjin and commercial — on the XBox Live Indie Games marketplace for the XBox 360 console, Apple's App Store for the iPhone and other iOS devices, and Android Market for phones and other devices. Another restriction applies to sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works. Finally he restricted "overly sexual depictions and defamation against certain individuals, groups, or races that are determined to go against common decency."

The anime studio ufotable announced last September that it was producing an anime project with the ANIMATE store chain's mascot character and the Touhou Project game characters. At the time, the Touhou Project creator said that he was not involved and that he did not know the details about it. Dōjin circles had previously sold anime with Touhou Project characters at the Comic Market (Comiket) convention.

"Don't be a racist, stop making so much money off my stuff when I don't like it, and cut down on the sex, please." - ZUN
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Iryan on February 14, 2011, 03:00:20 pm
So...

...does this mean the Maikaze anime project is screwed?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 14, 2011, 03:03:21 pm
All it really means is ZUN wants people to ask permission to use Touhou characters in their works, for the most part, with some greater restrictions on sexual content or defamatory material.

Can't say that's unreasonable.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on February 14, 2011, 03:54:24 pm
Well, it's not a bad thing to see ZUN laying out some rules. It's his creation after all, he deserves to keep it within certain limits.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kips McKipzerson on February 14, 2011, 04:43:49 pm
It's not like he's doing anything harsh and saying "YOU CANT MAKE ANYTHING RELATED TO TOUHOU WITHOUT MY PERMISSION." It's just he doesnt want people selling things touhou related, which people shouldn't be doing in the first damned place.
And no, I think the MAIKAZE project is still going to go on, ZUN's only problem with it was that he didnt want fans to think it was official, no?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 05:26:44 pm
The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kips McKipzerson on February 14, 2011, 05:52:58 pm
The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?
Seems like it, unless you wanna release it online which is stupid imo. Either way, They'll just get uploaded somewhere for anyone else to download for free.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 05:54:24 pm
Seems like it, unless you wanna release it online which is stupid imo. Either way, They'll just get uploaded somewhere for anyone else to download for free.
So I'm not allowed to recoup my costs (we're not even talking commercial, just doujin/indy stuff), and I have to deal with rampant piracy because I literally can't sell my game anywhere except at 2 swapmeets?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Edible on February 14, 2011, 05:56:50 pm
The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?

I think the article phrases it wrong.

The way I understand it, you just can't only sell a product digitally - you need to offer a physical copy as well.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 14, 2011, 06:07:18 pm
So I'm not allowed to recoup my costs (we're not even talking commercial, just doujin/indy stuff), and I have to deal with rampant piracy because I literally can't sell my game anywhere except at 2 swapmeets?

You're still allowed to sell your stuff at doujin shops.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Solais on February 14, 2011, 07:25:10 pm
As I understand it, you can still buy the games from the net, as in, ordering a physical copy of it, but can't sell it in places likes that Xbox thing or Steam. At least I thought that's what "digital distribution" means.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Conqueror on February 14, 2011, 07:37:35 pm
I'm guessing the distinction we're drawing here is between digital distribution (buying stuff online) and digital download (Steam, etc).

Any Japanese readers here?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: E-Nazrin on February 14, 2011, 07:38:40 pm
I don't think it's the "more than me" ZUN's concerned about - I think he's worried about Touhou getting overcommercialized in general, and pay-to-download would make things a little too easy for him to be comfortable with... I guess?

I'm a little sad, though, I always liked how much free reign the fandom has been given...
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 14, 2011, 07:42:01 pm
The fandom still does have a tremendous amount of free reign, comparatively. What he's asking for here is far below the standard demands a game-maker would make, and none of it really impedes the doujin community.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Stuffman on February 14, 2011, 07:48:12 pm
TSO, if you're trying to make money off a touhou game then you're missing the point. He doesn't want fanworks to be motivated by profit.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 08:21:38 pm
I think the article phrases it wrong.

The way I understand it, you just can't only sell a product digitally - you need to offer a physical copy as well.
Why?  Why do I have to waste the time and money to provide a physical copy?  I'm not a AAA vendor I'm just trying to get my game out into the public nameshare.

You're still allowed to sell your stuff at doujin shops.
Oh how convenient, I can only sell my stuff at Comiket and Reitaisai (events over in Japanland of course), or in doujin shops like himeya/etc I have to beg to carry my product physically.  The "traditional doujin" distribution system is a joke, period.  Outside of being in Japan your game will go nowhere, and even in Japan your game will end up on Share/PD in minutes and noone will buy it outside of collectors.  Look how big Recettear got just by being on Steam.

TSO, if you're trying to make money off a touhou game then you're missing the point. He doesn't want fanworks to be motivated by profit.
Noone said anything about being motivated for profit.  Some people just want to have the fruits of their labor be worth something, or even just cover their costs and break even.  And note he lumped both commercial and doujin in the same category, so I get the feeling he wasn't thinking about profit when he wrote that.

I'll be honest, the vibe I get is he wanted to add an artificial barrier to distribution in order to limit the potential number of sales doujin groups could generate.  By forcing doujin groups to resort to physical distribution only, he's forcing a huge cost and barrier to entry.  Not only that, on a lot of the platforms he forbade, there ARE no physical distribution options, digital is the only way.  I can't reasonably make a 360 game and get it pressed.  I can't make a physical copy of an IOS or Android game.

Stuff like Steam and Impulse and other digital distribution platforms are amazing for indy developers, as they no longer have to worry about distribution and marketting costs, it's all just part of the system.  It lowers the barrier to entry immensely, and gets their game out to a much wider audience.  His restrictions scream "I don't want you to be successful".
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kips McKipzerson on February 14, 2011, 08:24:12 pm
Well, sorry TSO but I guess you cant sell it just yet. Are you sure theres no way you can make it in a physical form, even if its just some coupon or whatever?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Edible on February 14, 2011, 08:26:51 pm
Why?  Why do I have to waste the time and money to provide a physical copy?  I'm not a AAA vendor I'm just trying to get my game out into the public nameshare.

Uh, not being a "AAA vendor" doesn't prevent countless tiny doujin circles from producing physical material.

I have no idea why you're so up in arms about this, it's not even remotely a big deal.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 08:34:55 pm
The whole point of digital distribution is to empower the developer to be able to distribute without the hassle of going around and appeasing retailers and the traditional publishing chain.  The whole idea of doujin/indy work is to embrace the developer peddling their wares without having to go through any of that shit.  Doesn't digital distribution kind of, I dunno, embody that spirit and empower the devs even moreso?

Digital distribution is one of the single best things to happen to indy developers.  It means they don't have to worry about the expenses of pressing their own discs or maintaining a website and bandwidth costs.  It means they don't have to waste a bunch of time wooing doujin shops or advertising their game.  And yet Lord ZUN has declared this against his wishes.

Uh, not being a "AAA vendor" doesn't prevent countless tiny doujin circles from producing physical material.
It doesn't prevent them, but it also means they'll never see more than a pittance from their efforts.  I'm up in arms because it essentially screams to me that kind of hipster attitude "you have to remain underground, you can't make it big!".  Not only that, digital distribution is the way of the future  and in some cases, the ONLY option for distributing on certain platforms.  It's fine and admirable in a lot of ways he's trying to essentially retain creative control of his creation, but at the same time it just feels like only he's allowed to get successful, noone else.

In the end it doesn't matter, he's shown to be absolutely inept and pathetic at enforcing these restrictions anyways.  I'd like to see him try to stop someone from making an IOS/Android Touhou game.  I respect the guy for what he's done but at some point you gotta say he's just being a stick in the mud for no legitimate reason.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on February 14, 2011, 08:43:42 pm
In terms of 'please stop making money out of porn of my characters', I think ZUN's entitled to crack down on that a little. Likewise for people making an anime with his characters with the intent of making money - note that he specifies commercial anime products.

What I DON'T get, though, is the clamping down on releases through things like Xbox Live. What would something like that do other than make the series more popular and well known? Wouldn't a legitimate, easy-to-reach method of purchasing the games bring around a significant reduction in piracy? I can't understand it, and it seems honestly like he's trying to stop Touhou getting any bigger than it already is.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 08:51:53 pm
In terms of 'please stop making money out of porn of my characters', I think ZUN's entitled to crack down on that a little. Likewise for people making an anime with his characters with the intent of making money - note that he specifies commercial anime products.

What I DON'T get, though, is the clamping down on releases through things like Xbox Live. What would something like that do other than make the series more popular and well known? Wouldn't a legitimate, easy-to-reach method of purchasing the games bring around a significant reduction in piracy? I can't understand it, and it seems honestly like he's trying to stop Touhou getting any bigger than it already is.
His restriction isn't on his games though.  We know he'll never distribute digitally, he's made that very clear.  What he is doing is restricting doujin groups who do want to leverage such technology.  It's one thing to restrict commercial works, but isn't the spirit of doujin to be self-published?  Why block a tool that gives all the keys to the doujin writers and not the publishers?  Doesn't that completely embody what he's trying to do with his own work, retain creative and publishing control over his work?

The ONLY reason I can think of for why he wants to restrict doujin to "traditional" channels is because he wants to add a barrier of entry to doujin works.  He's arguably the most successful doujin game developer in the world.  Yes Notch has made hand over fist worth of money but in pure mindshare Touhou wins.  Yet he doesn't want others to get as successful as he has.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 14, 2011, 08:55:16 pm
His restriction isn't on his games though.  We know he'll never distribute digitally, he's made that very clear.  What he is doing is restricting doujin groups who do want to leverage such technology.  It's one thing to restrict commercial works, but isn't the spirit of doujin to be self-published?  Why block a tool that gives all the keys to the doujin writers and not the publishers?  Doesn't that completely embody what he's trying to do with his own work, retain creative and publishing control over his work?

Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on February 14, 2011, 09:02:52 pm
Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.
It's not so much a sovereign right as he's prohibiting it for no real reason. If there was a decent explanation for why he's banning other people from producing fanworks and digitally selling them there wouldn't be an issue, but what hassle does this cause other than reducing the popularity of events such as Comiket and Reitaisai - which, given the digital age, could easily be argued as outdated?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 09:07:08 pm
Comiket and Reitaisai aren't going anywhere, period.  It's less about the games and more about the "accessories" like comics and costumes and figures and stuff of course, but it's not going to suddenly disappear because Steam exists.

Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.
If it was about the money, why block distribution on Android Market and IOS App Store and XBLIG?   Hell you can distribute for free on Android/IOS/XBLIG (unknown about Steam, but I assume it'd be ok).  Why is it ok for me to sell the game for 20-30 bucks at Comiket but not 5 bucks on Steam?   He could have just stipulated you can't make money beyond covering costs of distribution and I would have agreed with him.

He made a point to mention both commercial and doujin works separately, so clearly it wasn't about the money.  It's either he doesn't like the platforms and thus doesn't want his precious games to show up on the 360 or iPhone (then why make a distinction about digital distributors that "mainly target foreigners"), or he doesn't want people to get as successful as he's gotten.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Iryan on February 14, 2011, 09:09:11 pm
Wait, so, doujin game designers have some sovereign RIGHT to release games digitally using another man's creations? What? Does ZUN not have the right to dictate how other people can use and distribute his own work? I'm really not understanding the outrage here.
I think TSO's point is that, even though yes, that is up to him, the restriction against digital distribution is not really understandable. That he does not want people to just make money off his works without permission is understandable. Not wanting certain problematic material associated with his work is also more than understandable.
Not wanting doujin creators to sell their stuff digitally? Why would he be against that in general?  :/

Edit: Basically what Rou said.

Edit2: Now my posts seems totally pointless...
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Iced Fairy on February 14, 2011, 09:15:56 pm
Speaking as someone who's only hope of getting anything out is digital distribution, I gotta say that's a pain.  Especially for anyone not living in Japan.  I'm certain ZUN wasn't thinking outside that circle of course.  Still even in Japan limiting releases to events with limited space and limited attendees is really only going to hurt your work.

Oh well.  It's a good thing I'm not charging for anything.

Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kips McKipzerson on February 14, 2011, 09:17:03 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks that if something is released in a physical form, it'd somehow stop piracy or something?

Yeah, I dont know. Maybe ZUN had a couple Jack Daniels?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Barrakketh on February 14, 2011, 09:21:41 pm
Yeah, I dont know. Maybe ZUN had a couple Jack Daniels?
*beer*
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 09:25:12 pm
I'm pretty sure he thinks that if something is released in a physical form, it'd somehow stop piracy or something?
Umm, if anything the physical format requirement encourages piracy.  There's literally no legitimate way to get a lot of these doujin games except through pirated releases on Share/PD.  Not everyone has the resources to make it to Comiket/Reitaisai and a good majority of these games will never show up in any of the doujin importer services.  Literally the only time you'll ever see them is at the Comiket or Reitaisai they're released at.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 14, 2011, 09:50:49 pm
Again, these are his creations we're talking about. He can set the terms and call the shots when it comes to using them. It doesn't matter if it's because of the money or he doesn't like the format or he had gas that morning. The doujin community is not entitled to use his work in a manner he doesn't like. And he's not laying down some serious unreasonable stuff here.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Eilaris on February 14, 2011, 10:06:15 pm
In terms of 'please stop making money out of porn of my characters', I think ZUN's entitled to crack down on that a little. Likewise for people making an anime with his characters with the intent of making money - note that he specifies commercial anime products.

What I DON'T get, though, is the clamping down on releases through things like Xbox Live. What would something like that do other than make the series more popular and well known? Wouldn't a legitimate, easy-to-reach method of purchasing the games bring around a significant reduction in piracy? I can't understand it, and it seems honestly like he's trying to stop Touhou getting any bigger than it already is.

Without having actually read up on the specifics of the App Store, XBLA, the Android store, etc., I would assume that this restriction has its roots in licensing issues - namely, a fear that by releasing content in these venues, the creator cedes a degree of control over it to Microsoft or Apple or Google or whoever. 

It's probably a precaution to try to keep Microsoft from claiming legal ownership of the characters if someone releases a Touhou game on XBLA and it turns out to be a smash hit or something. 
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: nintendonut888 on February 14, 2011, 10:13:35 pm
Sorry if it's a little bit off-topic, but I'm more interested in the part of the blog entry that was left out of the OP:

Quote
さてさて、例大祭まであと1ヶ月(と見せかけた2月の罠)。
創作活動、楽しんでいきましょう。
バレーンタイーン!

As for the topic at hand, I can't say I'm familiar enough with the system to make any judgement. :S ZUN probably has his reasons.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on February 14, 2011, 10:17:29 pm
Sorry if it's a little bit off-topic, but I'm more interested in the part of the blog entry that was left out of the OP
Something along the lines of "Enjoy yourselves at the next month's festival".
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: NekoInc Likes Birds on February 14, 2011, 10:19:50 pm
(First time posting in a long time, wow...)

I have to partially agree with TSO here, in that a total ban on digital distribution through sites like DLShop.com, or just running a Paypal link on your own site, is ludicrous, and exceptionally bad for doujin gamemakers in general - forcing physical distribution for all sold goods is not a good thing.

HOWEVER, I do see ZUN's logic when it comes to saying no to releasing on systems beyond the PC (Xbox Live Indie Games, the iOS platform, and Android's MARKET - note that, by my read, games for Android off of the official market may be OK - double-irony, this would also provide a way to handle physical distribution of Android games). Specifically, I kind of think it would be weird that unofficial games of a series become the only things available on that platform - and I suspect that's what he thinks. As his work has traditionally been only on PCs, he orients himself and wants the community to orient themselves to the PC. Which, as a PC fan, I actually like. (And, as the new comments pointed out, legal ownership issues are annoying.)

I also extend this to Steam, Impulse, and Direct2Drive - major, non-doujin-oriented (well, Steam's got a lot of works that would qualify as doujin by reasonable definitions, but it's not their primary focus) systems, for the same reason - at this point, major download stores qualify as full-on platforms.

That said, to block sales on doujin-oriented download services, or the selling of digital-only versions on a doujin gamemaker's own site, does come across as excessive and a bad move to me.

I will state I'm also someone of the POV that, given the scale that the series has attained, ZUN should honestly just bite the bullet and put up digital distribution of the games as a way of reducing ridiculously rampant piracy (due in part to piracy being the only way to get these games in some cases) - yes, being indie is awesome and all, but putting your older works up for $15 on Steam doesn't hurt your indie cred, by any means, in this day and age. (Plus, being able to say to Valve, "Oh hey, I need some quick money, any chance I could get my stuff on front-page by dropping it to $5 for a week?" never hurts. Just ask Introversion Software.)
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 14, 2011, 10:37:44 pm
I have to partially agree with TSO here, in that a total ban on digital distribution through sites like DLShop.com, or just running a Paypal link on your own site, is ludicrous, and exceptionally bad for doujin gamemakers in general - forcing physical distribution for all sold goods is not a good thing. ... That said, to block sales on doujin-oriented download services, or the selling of digital-only versions on a doujin gamemaker's own site, does come across as excessive and a bad move to me.

How is it "excessive" or "ludicrous"? We're talking about doujin game designers using his work. Is ZUN out of line for setting his terms on the use of his works, for whatever reasons he might have?

I seriously don't get the inflated sense of entitlement that comes up whenever it comes to doujin works. ZUN has been gracious and generous to doujin gamers, more so than his counterparts, and he still is.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 10:45:33 pm
Again, these are his creations we're talking about. He can set the terms and call the shots when it comes to using them. It doesn't matter if it's because of the money or he doesn't like the format or he had gas that morning. The doujin community is not entitled to use his work in a manner he doesn't like. And he's not laying down some serious unreasonable stuff here.
Yes he's well within his rights, but doesn't mean he's not being shortsighted and inconsistent in his reasonings.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: NekoInc Likes Birds on February 14, 2011, 10:50:50 pm
How is it "excessive" or "ludicrous"? We're talking about doujin game designers using his work. Is ZUN out of line for setting his terms on the use of his works, for whatever reasons he might have?

I seriously don't get the inflated sense of entitlement that comes up whenever it comes to doujin works. ZUN has been gracious and generous to doujin gamers, more so than his counterparts, and he still is.

As TSO has stated repeatedly, barring digital distribution places a barrier to entry that previously was not there on doujin works, and only serves to encourage piracy of any such work that gets popular, since for many potential fans, piracy may literally become the only way to get that work.

ZUN's logic, as I stated in the post, has at least some sense to it, and I'm not opposed to say the ban on full-scale animations, or the request that permission be a prerequisite for commercial works - however, the blanket ban on digital distribution brings significantly more harm than good to the community - particularly those who like supporting the fangames legitimately.

I'd like to further point out that, under an extreme interpretation, this would even ban free doujin games from being posted on sites that have ads. Given that most free webhosts mandate ads, this increases the barrier to entry for doujin creations even when they are not sold - I think you can see why this might be held as a bad thing.

There's also inevitably going to be significant rankling over ZUN tightening a previously-much-looser leash. Just because the leash is STILL very loose doesn't mean people have no right to be annoyed when it's tightened - especially when it potentially screws over their specific projects.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kinzo the Astro Curious on February 14, 2011, 10:53:41 pm
Was quite worried when I first read the opening post. Then I read it again to clarify a point I was writing, and realised this isn't as bad as I thought it is. He's not even asking cut the porn in general, just if its a commercial good like a danmakura then don't make it marisa getting mushroomed. Considering its discression and not a ban the usual way they are is probably fine still.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 14, 2011, 10:56:29 pm
There's also inevitably going to be significant rankling over ZUN tightening a previously-much-looser leash. Just because the leash is STILL very loose doesn't mean people have no right to be annoyed when it's tightened - especially when it potentially screws over their specific projects.

They actually don't have much right to be annoyed at all, seeing how they're using someone else's work in their own projects, without compensating him, and all he's asking for is that people like, ask permission and not use certain channels of distribution.

But I guess when you're used to totally free reign to rip off another artist as you please, having that artist place any restrictions whatsoever on what people do with his work will make some people flip their shit.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Cadmas on February 14, 2011, 10:59:42 pm
I have my doubts about people cutting down on the hardcore dojins. Not sure Zun's reasons for that maybe he found the waterducts.

But I'm in agreement on creepy things like dakimakura...
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 11:37:08 pm
But I guess when you're used to totally free reign to rip off another artist as you please, having that artist place any restrictions whatsoever on what people do with his work will make some people flip their shit.
Yes clearly every single derivative work is simply just ripping off someone else.  ::)  Would ZUN have ever made a Touhou tower defense?  A fighter?  A platformer?  PatchuCon and IaMP are two of my favorite works out of the Touhouverse and MegaMari and Touhouvania are brilliant games.  Seriously, be reasonable.  You'd have a point if someone was taking the TH games and changing the bullet colors to orange and trying to sell that as "derivative", but there's a lot of legitimately creative work out there that just happen to borrow ZUN's character designs. 

Last I checked ZUN had no interest in making fighting games or tower defense games or the multitude of other imaginative games the series has spawned.  Even then noone's arguing that he doesn't have the right to do so.  I'm arguing that he's being inconsistent with his reasonings.  It's one thing to want to approve/deny fanworks in order to maintain creative control and to enforce a set of "canon" and a consistent structure, but the restrictions against digital distribution are purely arbitrary and serve nothing except put a barrier of entry.  It's OK we use his work but only if we sell it on CD and only distribute it at Reitaisai/Comiket/get ripped off at doujin shops.  What sense does that make?

Here's the other thing, ZUN is guilty of the same "crime" of derivative works too (big shock).  PoFV/PoDD are nothing but ripoffs of Twinkle Star Sprites with Touhou characters.  Why is it ok for him to freely rip off other games but when he restricts games based off of his Universe we're suddenly in the wrong for objecting to them?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Smok, destroyer of thoughts on February 14, 2011, 11:38:49 pm
Truly, ZUN can establish any rules he wishes, yes. If the next day he wakes up and writes down "NO MORE SELLING ANYTHING TOUHOU RELATED" then that becomes a rule that (officially) must not be overlooked.

About the porn.... What might he have in mind? Decency or the profit made by the people making the porn doujins 'n stuff?

EDIT: Sir TSO, while I do understand your anger, please have in mind that although the created and mentioned by you games are genius, their foundation lies in characters made by ZUN.

Imagine you create something and it's cool. Then someone else makes it more awesome. How do you feel?
There exists a possibility of you getting under appreciated for that. Let's say, people will go with "yea, he made it but the guy named XX is the TRUE master and awesome guy!"
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 11:43:03 pm
The vast majority of the money in touhou right now is in the porn stuff (H Doujins/dakimakuras/etc).  Funny thing is it's pointless, the porn industry guys will just recolor a few things and make it Mar*s* fucking R**mu.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 14, 2011, 11:45:24 pm
Yes clearly every single derivative work is simply just ripping off someone else.  ::) 

If you're using someone else's creations in your own work, without compensating them, yeah, that pretty much is ripping them off, to a degree. He's not asking for compensation; he's asking that permission be asked, and that certain distribution channels not be used. He's not going to personally come to your home and throw a steaming hot latté in your face or something. That's why I don't get the howls of outrage here.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kips McKipzerson on February 14, 2011, 11:45:54 pm
Once again, Jack Daniels is a damn powerful thing.

The vast majority of the money in touhou right now is in the porn stuff (H Doujins/dakimakuras/etc).  Funny thing is it's pointless, the porn industry guys will just recolor a few things and make it Mar*s* fucking R**mu.

There's a difference between hentai doujin's and badly made hentai doujins. When its just someone recoloring something from something el- hell, is that even possible? You wouldn't make a profit either way, as theres a lotta sites which have pretty much every Touhou h-doujin for free.

But all that fanmade shit aside the point: Whatever ZUN wants to do with his series he can. Weither you guys think its dumb (jack daniels), It's still his choice. Who knows, maybe he'll retract this statement?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Smok, destroyer of thoughts on February 14, 2011, 11:49:37 pm
I wonder if the porn thing is kinda related to the Tokio ban of porn-or-something-like-that new law to have the eyes of authorities away from him just for shear peace and quiet...
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: E-Nazrin on February 14, 2011, 11:53:27 pm
I have a less conventional question related to the whole indie/doujin download-content spat:

Does ZUN want Touhou to be an economic success?

I can't properly articulate it, but there's been some stuff said elsewhere that makes me think the answer would be something along the lines of "not particularly." Something about making the games based on what he wants to do, rather than what's expected of him. There's a chance that the ways that this request screws over the economic aspect of getting Touhou around are intentional, in order to cool things off a little so he can be more relaxed about what to do with the series and reduce some externally-caused economic influences.

But it's more likely that he's just drunk and worried about things getting out of control. But what way they're getting out of control that ZUN doesn't like... that's not as easy to answer.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 14, 2011, 11:54:37 pm
If you're using someone else's creations in your own work, without compensating them, yeah, that pretty much is ripping them off, to a degree. He's not asking for compensation; he's asking that permission be asked, and that certain distribution channels not be used. He's not going to personally come to your home and throw a steaming hot latté in your face or something. That's why I don't get the howls of outrage here.
The outrage is because with those definitions, it limits the platform to purely PC games.  For those of us who, I dunno, want to respect ZUN's wishes, it limits our options on what we can code for.  Not only that, it limits the exposure we can give our games.  Not all of us can afford a booth at Comiket or Reitaisai, or pay the ransom to get Paletweb/Himeyashop to carry it.

And really, what bothers me more is not the restrictions but how arbitrary and nonsensical they are.  The restriction against "sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works" just screams xenophobia to me too.  Oh you can make a game, but you can only sell it if you can get over to Comiket/Reitaisai to do so, or manage to convince a doujin site to sell it for you.  Which is never going to happen to us Westerners ever.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Suikama on February 14, 2011, 11:59:02 pm
Maybe ZUN just has the wrong idea about online distributions? Like maybe he thinks people can do it without the creators knowing and thus earning 100% profit without paying any royalties or anything, or that people will try it and cause huge shitstorms.

Eh maybe...
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 12:05:49 am
Maybe ZUN just has the wrong idea about online distributions? Like maybe he thinks people can do it without the creators knowing and thus earning 100% profit without paying any royalties or anything, or that people will try it and cause huge shitstorms.

Eh maybe...
Oh I'm sure part of it is just ignorance and lack of knowledge of the way things work.  I'm hoping though that he'd be open to exploring it and letting it on a case by case basis, or at least be willing to look into and educating himself.

Really though, it just upsets me.  I really do want to respect his wishes, creative control over one's own creation is a paramount right in a modern society.  But at the same time, it severely restricts my options and ability to expose my work and the platforms I can develop for.  Add to the fact it completely shuts out the Western community entirely unless by some miracle we were able to get a booth at one of the cons or a ZUN approved store to sell it.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Ryuu on February 15, 2011, 12:07:18 am
Jack Daniels


jack is whiskey


zun drinks beer
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 12:09:32 am
Or does beer drink ZUN?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Suikama on February 15, 2011, 12:10:28 am
Soviet loli for TH13
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 15, 2011, 12:14:28 am
And really, what bothers me more is not the restrictions but how arbitrary and nonsensical they are.  The restriction against "sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works" just screams xenophobia to me too.

So now he's a racist, too? Well, that's keeping the discussion sensible.

I dunno. Seems like a lot of sound and fury to me in the reaction to this.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 12:23:53 am
So now he's a racist, too? Well, that's keeping the discussion sensible.

I dunno. Seems like a lot of sound and fury to me in the reaction to this.
Did I say racist?  No it just sounds like a typical "oldschool" Japanese mentality.  Why else would he specifically single out "sales through overseas downloads", unless it was just a mistake by the translation (I'm going off of ANN's statement).

Seriously though, I want to respect his wishes but this is just stupid.  Maybe you don't see it as a big deal because you don't have a dog in the hunt.  I have no options but to ignore them (I'm toying with an XNA Touhou-based game and a DMF port for the PSP).
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Tengukami on February 15, 2011, 12:28:54 am
Did I say racist?  No it just sounds like a typical "oldschool" Japanese mentality.  Why else would he specifically single out "sales through overseas downloads", unless it was just a mistake by the translation (I'm going off of ANN's statement).

Well, you did say "xenophobic", which in fairness doesn't just include race but also nationality and religion. So it's worse.

And maybe his concerns are with regards to the entire complicated mess of dealing with international copyright law. He's just one dude. He's probably just trying to keep things simple by limiting the means and scope of distribution to the realms that he understands without having to hire an attorney.

To recap, what he's asking for is:

1. If you want to use Touhous, ask permission.
2. If you want to use sexy Touhous, ask permission and be "discreet" about it.
3. Sell your stuff in material form.
4. Don't make Touhous racist or raping each other and shit.

I understand Number 3 being frustrating, sure, but some of the adjectives being thrown around about this make him sound like some kind of monster stealing first-born children from doujin artists.

Touhou is his work. He can set any terms he pleases. And these terms, while maybe frustrating for the western consumer, are not impossible nor are they unreasonable. Just my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Smok, destroyer of thoughts on February 15, 2011, 12:33:42 am
You can't deny that the Japanese don't like sharing their awesome stuff with the westerns, god knows why.
That might wake an accusation of xenophobia.
If we really have anything to do here with THIS, then this ain't as "harsh" as racism here (or as the "xenophobia" you have in mind). Perhaps a mild version of xenophobia.

In this particular I'm trying to justify TSO's anger (about so called xenophobia). Just saying and wondering, no stating objective truth.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 12:45:53 am
They are impossible because I can't press a 360 disc, XBLIG is my only option.  The only reason I was using XNA was the direct and simple port to 360 and PC and leverage XBLIG to distribute.  Of course I have my own capabilities to host the PC version but not many other indy devs have that.

And I'm not coming from the angle of a consumer, I know he's never going to distribute digitally, and while I think he's being shortsighted it's his work and I can't force him to sell on Steam.  But to tell me I can't make a game for the 360 without being able to press a disc (an impossible task) is kind of much, especially if he's fine if I sell my game at Reitaisai for a bajillion dollars.

As for the rest of the commentary, maybe I'm overreacting (I really hope I am), but I'm kinda used to getting treated like a second class citizen.  I hope it was unintentional but still, the propensity to do such things is still pretty high especially in the doujin world.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Paper Conan on February 15, 2011, 01:25:54 am
I fully agree with ZUN on that post.

I'm more than sure that the increase of doujin works really doesn't improve the amount of money that goes in to ZUN, the founder and total/ 100% owner of touhou. Heck, if he were to totally ban all doujin content forever, it still wouldn't/ shouldn't affect him. He has the complete right to be disappointed/angry at other people for  A ) making a profit out of his content and by  B ) limiting the money that should go to him with his own creation.

Now, I don't think touhou's popularity will ever decrease/suffer/die/whatever if ZUN restricts the creation of doujin content even by the slightest. Touhou will still, more than likely, be popular nonetheless.

Oh, and about touhou's growth.
He probably doesn't want touhou to get out-of-hand in the XBLA by some fan who just happened to publish a best-selling touhou doujin game. If ZUN wants to, he can either wait until the right time to go mainstream or he can simply deny the opportunity forever.  It's his choice. This also applies to the creation of a touhou anime.

He has, as I've kept saying, the total right to manage his own creation in whichever way he wants. I just hope that we can all respect this.

Oh, and I don't think that the piracy of official or fanmade content would matter either way. No matter what, there's ALWAYS going to be someone that will upload such content to the internet for anyone to download for free.
Sorta like music. No matter what anyone tries to do, there will still be millions of copies of almost every song everywere. In both real life and on the internet.

TSO, if these new rules are really a problem, maybe you can contact ZUN himself for permission? If he still denies it, maybe you can make your own original doujin content for a profit? Well, whatever happens, I hope everything turns out alright....
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Seventh Holy Scripture on February 15, 2011, 01:29:26 am
The restriction against "sales through overseas downloads and other channels that go beyond traditional means of releasing dōjin works" just screams xenophobia to me too.  Oh you can make a game, but you can only sell it if you can get over to Comiket/Reitaisai to do so, or manage to convince a doujin site to sell it for you.  Which is never going to happen to us Westerners ever.

My first thought was that he might be trying not to step on the toes of some company such as Rockin' Android, which has hinted about attempting to publish Touhou games in the West, IIRC. Or he might have bought into the huge moral panic surrounding eroge and resulting in most 18+ game developers banning overseas visitors from even visiting their websites (which would be stupid.) Or he might be afraid that by having Touhou fangames appear on major platforms such as the Apple Store and XBLA he'll somehow lose control of his rights. I dunno, it is hard to judge the motivation here.

Still, my personal opinion is "it's his setting, and what's the loss?" If someone wants to profiteer off their creations without being beholden to ZUN's new restrictions, they can easily just make something that's not based on Touhou.  Heck, Rosenkreuzstilette was so similar to MegaMari in concept and style it kind of feels like those guys had to do just that when Tasofro beat them to a Touhou MegaMan- or just decided to change the story and setting when they cloned it rather than make a fangame of a fangame. (I forget the precise dates except that MegaMari came first.)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that whatever ZUN wants to do with his own setting can't harm the doujin scene at large, and if the profiteers have to go it on their own from now on it might even lead to greater originality. I probably shouldn't expect much agreement on a Touhou fan-forum, though. :V It's a selfish opinion born of finding it very dreary how Touhou has utterly dominated the doujin world for some time now, particularly in regards music. C'mon, give me some Atelier or Tales or Persona arrangements! Or your own compositions!

Okay, stupid rant over.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Paper Conan on February 15, 2011, 01:36:54 am
My first thought was that he might be trying not to step on the toes of some company such as Rockin' Android, which has hinted about attempting to publish Touhou games in the West, IIRC. Or he might have bought into the huge moral panic surrounding eroge and resulting in most 18+ game developers banning overseas visitors from even visiting their websites (which would be stupid.) Or he might be afraid that by having Touhou fangames appear on major platforms such as the Apple Store and XBLA he'll somehow lose control of his rights. I dunno, it is hard to judge the motivation here.

Still, my personal opinion is "it's his setting, and what's the loss?" If someone wants to profiteer off their creations without being beholden to ZUN's new restrictions, they can easily just make something that's not based on Touhou.  Heck, Rosenkreuzstilette was so similar to MegaMari in concept and style it kind of feels like those guys had to do just that when Tasofro beat them to a Touhou MegaMan- or just decided to change the story and setting when they cloned it rather than make a fangame of a fangame. (I forget the precise dates except that MegaMari came first.)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that whatever ZUN wants to do with his own setting can't harm the doujin scene at large, and if the profiteers have to go it on their own from now on it might even lead to greater originality. I probably shouldn't expect much agreement on a Touhou fan-forum, though. :V It's a selfish opinion born of finding it very dreary how Touhou has utterly dominated the doujin world for some time now, particularly in regards music. C'mon, give me some Atelier or Tales or Persona arrangements! Or your own compositions!

Okay, stupid rant over.


What you said  :3
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 02:32:00 am
I dunno, I wasn't doing it for profit, I was really doing it because hey, programming is fun to me :B  Really any money I'd charge would be to recoup costs.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kilgamayan on February 15, 2011, 04:56:51 am
Then make whatever game you're making with your own characters instead of Toohoos, I guess?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: beaver1231 on February 15, 2011, 06:27:42 am
I dunno, I wasn't doing it for profit, I was really doing it because hey, programming is fun to me :B  Really any money I'd charge would be to recoup costs.
TSO, did you know that some mangaka have their own part-time jobs?

I tried to read the argument but I can't seem to wrap my head around it

You'll just have to deal with it, TSO, there isn't really much you can do now.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Cadmas on February 15, 2011, 06:49:26 am
Then make whatever game you're making with your own characters instead of Toohoos, I guess?

Oringal charcter do not steel  :V
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 15, 2011, 08:10:38 am
The more I read into this, the more I feel he's probably trying to avoid having Touhou works getting wrapped into some copyright clause when he decided to restrict digital distribution, though I do have to say that is still a bit restricting though...
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: N-Forza on February 15, 2011, 09:17:15 am
I knew I should've checked this forum before I went to bed, although the problems aren't the once I was expecting.

ZUN's limitation for 18+ works go only applies to commercial goods. Just getting that out there.

His stipulation to not distribute works via digital download is perfectly understandable. At least if Touhou doujin are sold through events and doujin shops, the buyer understands more than likely that what they are buying is a derivate work. If it is online, there could very well be people unscrupulous enough to try to pass it off as original, and people who don't know any better who believe them. And he wasn't singling out online shops that sell overseas, he was just giving an easily-understandable example. The bottom line is that ZUN is entirely within his own rights to do this, as it is his property first and foremost. Would you be able to get away with selling a game online based on some other property? Fat chance.

The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?
I doubt that ZUN cares that people are getting rich off of his property. Or if he does, he hasn't really complained about it because he knows it comes with the doujin territory. There are still other ways to make lots of money without selling things online.

Mostly because there are many, many, many, many Touhou and even general doujin sales events. Yes, Comiket and Reitaisai are some of the major ones, but if the smaller ones weren't successful as well, there wouldn't be as many of those either.

Yes he's well within his rights, but doesn't mean he's not being shortsighted and inconsistent in his reasonings.
How is he being inconsistent? He doesn't sell his games online either. The fact that he isn't selling them online is somewhat shortsighted, yes, but that's his choice. Maybe he doing something like that would be more work than he's willing to invest in it, regardless of the potential windfall.

Would ZUN have ever made a Touhou tower defense?  A fighter?...  ...PatchuCon and IaMP are two of my favorite works out of the Touhouverse

Last I checked ZUN had no interest in making fighting games...
Does that mean Suika, Iku, Tenshi, and the Giant Catfish are fan-characters that ZUN was gracious enough to allow into the main games (minus the Catfish... so far)? What were you thinking when you wrote this? I know you're upset about it but come on.

The vast majority of the money in touhou right now is in the porn stuff.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Stuffman on February 15, 2011, 09:33:57 am
Actually I have to inquire about the thread title. Is it a reference to the policy changes about third party content WotC made when 4E came out?

I was hoping the thread would be about the new edition of that neat touhou tabletop RPG. D:
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 15, 2011, 09:42:57 am
Actually, I was wondering if commercial cel-animation covers or not covers the current anime projects? I've noticed some people making the argument about the difference between doujin and commercial works in other sections but no-one has brought up the two projects that around are/were going to be released this year.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: N-Forza on February 15, 2011, 10:13:22 am
Yeah, ZUN also said no cell animation projects where you charged money to view without first getting permission, but that somehow excludes 3D animation or other CGI. I guess because traditional cell animation is what is most likely to be mistaken as "official" or something. That does affect quite a few circles, but they haven't made any announcements regarding that just yet.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Ryuu on February 15, 2011, 10:16:29 am
Yeah, ZUN also said no cell animation projects where you charged money to view without first getting permission, but that somehow excludes 3D animation or other CGI. I guess because traditional cell animation is what is most likely to be mistaken as "official" or something. That does affect quite a few circles, but they haven't made any announcements regarding that just yet.

this seems to me to be sparked by anime tenchou thing, which is perfectly reasonable in that case
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Smok, destroyer of thoughts on February 15, 2011, 10:18:57 am
In other words this is ZUN fighting commercialism and injustice in the world of entertainment, is it?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Firestorm29 on February 15, 2011, 10:24:07 am
this seems to me to be sparked by anime tenchou thing, which is perfectly reasonable in that case

My concern is moreso with the Maizake episode 2 anime that appears to be getting primed for release. Those guys seem to always run into tons of potholes. :/

I can understand that tenchou thing since I get the feeling those guys are more pro-like and not even giving as little as a friendly heads up... that's not very cool.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on February 15, 2011, 12:41:40 pm
The more I sit and think about this, the more I understand Ammy's point.

Simple question - if I were to make, say, an FFVII visual novel and sell it commercially, would Square be on my ass with a trillion lawsuits? You bet.

Honestly, it's more of a blessing that ZUN's allowing commercial use of derivative works at all. I'd still support the games themselves being up for digital distribution, but perhaps everything else really does need to be toned down. Easy-to-reach derivates of a not-so-easy-to-reach original game doesn't bode well for the original game.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 02:05:32 pm
His stipulation to not distribute works via digital download is perfectly understandable. At least if Touhou doujin are sold through events and doujin shops, the buyer understands more than likely that what they are buying is a derivate work. If it is online, there could very well be people unscrupulous enough to try to pass it off as original, and people who don't know any better who believe them. And he wasn't singling out online shops that sell overseas, he was just giving an easily-understandable example. The bottom line is that ZUN is entirely within his own rights to do this, as it is his property first and foremost. Would you be able to get away with selling a game online based on some other property? Fat chance.
Then I retract my statement about that.  I assumed from the ANN posting he was singling them out.  If he was using it as an example then I'm sorry I read too much into it.  As for getting away with it on some other property, it depends.  Parody allows quite a bit of creative license (I would consider my XNA game parody).  Would I be willing to goto court over it, probably not.  But at the same time there is a sense of "fair use".

Quote
I doubt that ZUN cares that people are getting rich off of his property. Or if he does, he hasn't really complained about it because he knows it comes with the doujin territory. There are still other ways to make lots of money without selling things online.
Again this is what I'm reading out of it.  The reasons didn't make sense at all to me outside of that.  And again, I'm not trying to make any sort of money off the project, which is why I said I agreed with his stance against commercial works if that was the reason why he's restricting it.  The fact he singled out doujin works as well kind of baffled me.

Quote
Mostly because there are many, many, many, many Touhou and even general doujin sales events. Yes, Comiket and Reitaisai are some of the major ones, but if the smaller ones weren't successful as well, there wouldn't be as many of those either.
The problem is, by restricting to physical sales only and not XBLIG/App Store I literally cannot develop and release for those platforms period.  Android I could get away with since I can distribute pkgs myself, but I'm not interested in Android.  That's where I saw problems with his logic.  The fact he's not really clear in explaining why he doesn't want these outside of "respecting traditional doujin distribution methods" also doesn't help.

Quote
How is he being inconsistent? He doesn't sell his games online either. The fact that he isn't selling them online is somewhat shortsighted, yes, but that's his choice. Maybe he doing something like that would be more work than he's willing to invest in it, regardless of the potential windfall.
I said he was being inconsistent because digital distribution pretty much runs and empowers the indy game scene (at least in the West).  I know things are different in Japan but I'm not able to leverage any of that stuff over there.  And beyond that I know it's his work and he's free to decide how he wants to sell it.

Quote
Does that mean Suika, Iku, Tenshi, and the Giant Catfish are fan-characters that ZUN was gracious enough to allow into the main games (minus the Catfish... so far)? What were you thinking when you wrote this? I know you're upset about it but come on.
Ammy made a comment alluding to the derivative people just ripping off his games.  I was pointing out examples of extremely creative work that used ZUN's characters that were nothing like the original games.  Things that ZUN wouldn't have ever done.  It didn't take away from ZUN's body of work, if anything it enriched it.  The big part of why I like Touhou is because there's no rights holder stamping out anyone who dares to do fan-created stuff like Games Workshop or Harmony Gold.  Really the big reason I'm even wanting to use his characters is as a homage, not to rip him off and avoid having to make my own designs.

Again I am not arguing he's not within his rights to do so at all.  I'm just kinda miffed that I can't make a 360 game now or use Steam to distribute the PC port :/

Quote
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
If it isn't then show me, I thought H Doujins and stuff like that were the big market in commercial Touhou goods (and really the only segment I can think of that's really "commercial").
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Sect on February 15, 2011, 04:50:22 pm
Actually I have to inquire about the thread title. Is it a reference to the policy changes about third party content WotC made when 4E came out?

I was hoping the thread would be about the new edition of that neat touhou tabletop RPG. D:
That was a question I was thinking about asking for a long while: it was especially egregious, considering the Open Game License that 3E had.

And there's a Touhou RPG?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 15, 2011, 04:53:17 pm
And there's a Touhou RPG?
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Danmaku_Yuugi_Flowers
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Sect on February 15, 2011, 10:02:48 pm
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Danmaku_Yuugi_Flowers
You, I love.  :*
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: N-Forza on February 15, 2011, 10:44:25 pm
I said he was being inconsistent because digital distribution pretty much runs and empowers the indy game scene (at least in the West).  I know things are different in Japan but I'm not able to leverage any of that stuff over there.
Again, I don't see how he is inconsistent. He is not a Western developer. He is not obligated to even sell his games at all. I'm not saying it's not stubborn, but digital distribution just has yet to catch on here. There are several reasons for this, but part of it is that most doujin game developers really aren't in it for the profit, and they prefer the social element of selling at events. Maybe they think that if they put it online, fewer people will come. Probably unfounded, but who knows?

I was pointing out examples of extremely creative work that used ZUN's characters that were nothing like the original games.  Things that ZUN wouldn't have ever done.
I'm still really, really confused about how you keep insisting the fighting games were not ZUN's idea or at the very least not endorsed by him. He wrote the plot, wrote new music, designed the characters and was otherwise heavily involved in the creation process. He's mentioned before in interviews that Street Fighter II was one of his favorite games, and one of the first things he wanted to do with the Touhou series was make a fighting game.

If it isn't then show me, I thought H Doujins and stuff like that were the big market in commercial Touhou goods (and really the only segment I can think of that's really "commercial").
Commercial entities don't really make doujin comics, except for maybe Toranoana but those are more collections commissioned by other doujin artists. Walking around the commercial area at the last Reisaitai, I saw practically nothing in the way of 18+ stuff. About 80% of commercial merchandise is figures, and that's a low estimate.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 11:28:39 pm
Again, I don't see how he is inconsistent. He is not a Western developer. He is not obligated to even sell his games at all. I'm not saying it's not stubborn, but digital distribution just has yet to catch on here. There are several reasons for this, but part of it is that most doujin game developers really aren't in it for the profit, and they prefer the social element of selling at events. Maybe they think that if they put it online, fewer people will come. Probably unfounded, but who knows?
I hope it is just ignorance and lack of understanding for how it works here.  I don't think he's an unreasonable and bad person, and maybe he just didn't think about it because it isn't a big deal in the doujin community over there.

Quote
I'm still really, really confused about how you keep insisting the fighting games were not ZUN's idea or at the very least not endorsed by him. He wrote the plot, wrote new music, designed the characters and was otherwise heavily involved in the creation process. He's mentioned before in interviews that Street Fighter II was one of his favorite games, and one of the first things he wanted to do with the Touhou series was make a fighting game.
I never did, I just used it as an example of a game not made by him that isn't a "rip off" of the original games.  I gave tons of other examples like MegaMari and Touhouvania.

Quote
Commercial entities don't really make doujin comics, except for maybe Toranoana but those are more collections commissioned by other doujin artists. Walking around the commercial area at the last Reisaitai, I saw practically nothing in the way of 18+ stuff. About 80% of commercial merchandise is figures, and that's a low estimate.
Ok I wasn't sure, I just assumed given there's not much to commercialize and make money off of that'd be it.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: N-Forza on February 15, 2011, 11:42:25 pm
I never did, I just used it as an example of a game not made by him that isn't a "rip off" of the original games.
But it IS made by him. Just not by himself.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 15, 2011, 11:45:11 pm
But it IS made by him. Just not by himself.
Tasofro made it, is what I was mostly referring to.  If you consider it to be all his ok then it's all his.  I consider it a separate game series because it's not like the rest of the canon games and he wasn't the one that coded it.  That's my opinion.  Why is this such a big deal anyways?  I gave examples that were clearly not his work at all.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: あさらぎシジェ on February 16, 2011, 12:14:28 am
Thread appeared later than I expected.
Honestly I think that restricting the ways people can distro their creations is, in effect, the same thing as restricting the ways people can express themselves in their creations.
Sure, you could make something using OCs rather than it star Reimu and Marisa solving the problem, but if you want it to star a Touhou character then it must be because you like Touhou and think it would be fun if Reimu solved it. There's really no way of putting an end to doujin creations, fanfiction, and parodys.
I think this will do nothing but hurt both business and the fanbase, and that ZUN is just putting a nail in his own coffin by doing this.
It's bad enough Ishihara is trying to screw over the anime and manga industries, but ZUN doesn't need to screw over the doujin industry at the same time.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 16, 2011, 12:25:09 am
Thread appeared later than I expected.
Honestly I think that restricting the ways people can distro their creations is, in effect, the same thing as restricting the ways people can express themselves in their creations.
Sure, you could make something using OCs rather than it star Reimu and Marisa solving the problem, but if you want it to star a Touhou character then it must be because you like Touhou and think it would be fun if Reimu solved it. There's really no way of putting an end to doujin creations, fanfiction, and parodys.
I think this will do nothing but hurt both business and the fanbase, and that ZUN is just putting a nail in his own coffin by doing this.
It's bad enough Ishihara is trying to screw over the anime and manga industries, but ZUN doesn't need to screw over the doujin industry at the same time.

Have you been reading sankaku or something ?  :V
Because the new rules change nothing for the doujin stuff, and as mentioned before, digital distribution is not a big thing in japan.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: あさらぎシジェ on February 16, 2011, 12:36:30 am
Yes, I did read the Sankaku article first. Then I immediately checked his Twitter and blog in a fanpanic for some reason even though I'm very unlikely, no absolutely never going to make a Touhou-related game, and then I checked here to see if there was a thread and was surprised to find there wasn't yet.
I didn't bother reading the article comments though, I never do. Just the article.
Also, why hasn't anyone bothered to just translate the full post for us to scrutinize rather than just give us a summary?
I'd do it myself but... eh, I'd not be much better than Google.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 16, 2011, 12:38:46 am
Yes, I did read the Sankaku article first. Then I immediately checked his Twitter and blog in a fanpanic for some reason even though I'm very unlikely, no absolutely never going to make a Touhou-related game, and then I checked here to see if there was a thread and was surprised to find there wasn't yet.
I didn't bother reading the article comments though, I never do. Just the article.
Also, why hasn't anyone bothered to just translate the full post for us to scrutinize rather than just give us a summary?
I'd do it myself but... eh, I'd not be much better than Google.

Here's the full translation:
http://example.org/archives/1682

Includes translations of his twitter posts in the comments.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: あさらぎシジェ on February 16, 2011, 12:42:29 am
*facepalm*
Of course, I forget to check the site I lurk most.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Eilaris on February 16, 2011, 01:21:53 am
I suppose someone in the West who wants to know what they should do if they want to make a derivative work should do is attempt to contact ZUN directly?

The worst that could happen is that he'd either say no or not answer at all, I guess.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 16, 2011, 01:27:53 am
Eh I'm not too worried about it.  I was far more upset yesterday when it first came out but now I'm like eh I'll ask and if he says no I can just stick to PC.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: µq on February 16, 2011, 02:18:15 am
I'm disappointed that nobody's reading E-Mouse's posts.

It's my understanding that ZUN doesn't especially like that he ~dominates the doujin market at Comiket, etc..  Based on that I sense that ZUN would rather restrain and localize the spread of his brainchild than let it become a brand name that's not unique to his corner of the world.  Or if you want it in Western vernacular, he wants to keep it real.

That, more than appealing to public decency or giving the finger to Westerners, seems like what's driving his requests.  Maybe I'm naive. :umu:
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: HolmCross on February 16, 2011, 02:26:29 am
*current wearing silly hat*

ZUN has woken up and realized how far it his franhcise has evolved without him. It makes sense; last I checked he works for a game developing company  and makes games in his free time between drinks, he probably doesn't have much time to keep a pulse on his creation/monster.

*puts serious hat on*

Or he might be afraid that by having Touhou fangames appear on major platforms such as the Apple Store and XBLA he'll somehow lose control of his rights. I dunno, it is hard to judge the motivation here.

This is a valid point, but I think he's only considering the doujin makers in his home country when he made this rule. Leaving this point aside, there's a possible misundering here. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but has our Kannushi even acknowledged his western fans? It's possible he hasn't even considered his western market when making these rules. Maybe he's not against westerners making works using his franchise and using their main channels of distribution; maybe he hasn't even thought about us or considered the possibility of us creating anything of worth.

One of the things that makes touhou great is the artistic freedom, ZUN has created a framework for all that we love. I'm concerned these rules might break what makes touhou great.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Recon 5 on February 16, 2011, 05:47:07 am
This isn't going to change anything for anyone, not even the big commercial entities. ZUN has complained about this kind of thing more than once before but he has yet to take any action. All he's doing is voicing his tacit disapproval. People may sit up and take notice, but in the end if they decide to ignore him and proceed with whatever they were originally planning nothing much is going to happen.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: N-Forza on February 16, 2011, 07:25:05 am
I consider it a separate game series
So why are they numbered in order with everything else, despite the unusual system? If they really were a completely different series, explain Suika showing up at all in StB, Double Spoiler and SA.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: helvetica on February 16, 2011, 01:56:35 pm
So why are they numbered in order with everything else, despite the unusual system? If they really were a completely different series, explain Suika showing up at all in StB, Double Spoiler and SA.
Again this is MY personal opinion.  I think there's a difference between a fully ZUN made game and a game made by Tasofro with ZUN providing creative input.  I NEVER said they weren't part of the main series, I never made any "canon" arguments, just that ZUN didn't make them.  Why are you making such a big deal about this?  Does it really matter?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: N-Forza on February 17, 2011, 12:20:38 am
That's what I assumed you meant by "separate series", not related to the main story/canon at all.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Berzul on February 17, 2011, 03:09:10 am
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Danmaku_Yuugi_Flowers

This above and... http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Yokai_Subtype_%283.5e_Creature_Subtype%29 ... Oriental adventures. I need to take a quick look into this...

I can see where this is going still would we be interesting to see a campaign in Gensokyou setting, If Zun is ok with this ofc....
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 17, 2011, 10:44:18 pm
Update (http://example.org/archives/1682#comment-150522)
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Doll.S CUBE on February 18, 2011, 01:35:44 am
I heard from someone that ANIMATE tried to take credit for Touhou, maybe that's the reason why he announced this?
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Smok, destroyer of thoughts on February 18, 2011, 01:44:13 am
Update (http://example.org/archives/1682#comment-150522)

So it seems he really is just fending of commercialism and greedy people drooling on his work.

I heard from someone that ANIMATE tried to take credit for Touhou, maybe that's the reason why he announced this?

The bastards! If this is true, then no wonder ZUN decided to get a move on.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Sabino on February 20, 2011, 08:34:34 am
So, if the topic of "the updates of ZUN's guidelines" is still alive, I've typed up an as close as possible translation of the blog post on the Random Translations section.
For topics like extreme content and suggestive contents, please also reference the previous guideline that I also translated in the thread.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Sedrife on February 21, 2011, 12:46:13 am
"I heard from someone that ANIMATE tried to take credit for Touhou, maybe that's the reason why he announced this?"

The bastards! If this is true, then no wonder ZUN decided to get a move on.

From what I know, ANIMATE announced this crossover as a "Collaboration".
The fans thought this meant that ZUN was officially involved in making Touhou as an animation, a premise that ZUN stated in his past that he does not wish to be involved.
You can imagine a great surge of influx ZUN was prodded by enraged fans, asking, "Did you collaborate in an anime project recently?"

I'm guessing ZUN is a bit bitter about it.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Suikama on February 21, 2011, 12:48:45 am
"Goddamn kids, let me drink in peace!"
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: kitenkaiba on February 21, 2011, 03:33:28 am
Call me strange but I honestly think Zun mite be afraid of being too famous, maybe he doesn’t want to be internationally known. Or perhaps he is honestly a little disturbed by some of the stuff coming out, the Marisa B bug comics are horrible to give an example.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Kips McKipzerson on February 21, 2011, 03:37:20 am
Call me strange but I honestly think Zun mite be afraid of being too famous, maybe he doesn’t want to be internationally known. Or perhaps he is honestly a little disturbed by some of the stuff coming out, the Marisa B bug comics are horrible to give an example.

I dont think its because he's afraid of being popular. As someone else said, Hell, two posts or so back, Someone said they were making an anime collab with the touhou project, which is implying ZUN has his hand in it, which he doesnt. I think this is one of those decisions where your only trying to aim at one group, but you say stupid shit and seem like a dick. Also, I'm pretty damned sure ZUN himself knows that Touhou's popularity is 70% fandom. How many people get introduced to mario via a fanfic/other fan work? Maybe 1%. Introduced to touhou via fanfic/PV or something else? Chances are higher then 50%.
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: Suikama on February 21, 2011, 03:54:39 am
Call me strange but I honestly think Zun mite be afraid of being too famous
All the guy wants to do is start his own bar :V
Title: Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
Post by: kitenkaiba on February 21, 2011, 04:48:27 am
Like the Mana Bar maybe, but for Touhou and other like games.  :3