Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: ArteShy on July 31, 2010, 08:09:52 PM

Title: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: ArteShy on July 31, 2010, 08:09:52 PM: I just got to the UFO stage 6 and i just realized, that Reimu wants to exterminate every youkai (And human!) she meets. Hijiri says that she wants peace and Reimu is like : "I must kill all youkai, they are cruel and will kill all the humans!"
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Anon on July 31, 2010, 08:14:13 PM: Extermination has lost its meaning in the current world of Gensokyo. Tokiko got "exterminated", but she broke down the door of Kourindou minutes later.

Reimu also has youkai hang around her shrine. The lower level one youkai bosses even helped out with a Guts trial there.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Cadmas on July 31, 2010, 08:15:54 PM: Might just be an example of the canon stepping on its own toes.
Even if Reimu killed them all they would just become ghosts and possibly get reincarnated.
Its not like the number of youkai is static.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Tengukami on July 31, 2010, 08:23:30 PM: Yeah, "extermination" does not mean the same thing in Gensokyo. That's why they have the spellcard rules.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: ArteShy on July 31, 2010, 08:26:34 PM: Yea, but Reimu attacks almost everyone she meets.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Ayuka on July 31, 2010, 08:28:56 PM: But they show up again later perfectly fine. You don't get called a murderer for smacking your friends in the head. Or even for smacking random strangers in the head (although you might get sent to jail for it). More or less it's Reimu's job to take care of the situation and she chooses to do it by beating up everyone she comes across in a spell card duel.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Iced Fairy on July 31, 2010, 08:31:16 PM: Danmaku is the standard greeting in Gensoukyo. Especially during incident time.

In all seriousness NOT fighting every youkai she blundered across would be worse. Most Youkai need to use their powers to survive. If Reimu wasn't wandering around attacking people (and getting attacked by people) a lot of youkai would die.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Ghaleon on July 31, 2010, 11:03:58 PM: The whole extermination/murder thing really confused me too at first. I've learned never to take anything from a Touhou game at face value, or else it'll just confuse you. I remember in EoSD stage 6 Remilia was all like "so you murdered my maid" And Reimu was like "Just cuz I killed 1 person doesn't mean I'm a serial killer don't worry". Yet Sakuya was A-ok at the end. wut? I just guess that kill/murder/exterminate/slay/whatever in Gensokyo is just pretty much our way of saying something like "pwnt".
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Lord Phantasm Satori on July 31, 2010, 11:18:36 PM: I found out just now that they weren't the same. I suppose that makes her more like a typical "I must beat X in battle!" characters. X being all of something or a specific person.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Drake on July 31, 2010, 11:20:57 PM: The japanese text literally talks about murdering, but considering the spellcard rules Remilia likely just dramatized it and Reimu went along, which is why she replied so nonchalantly. "Extermination" in the case of youkai likely means "stop them from causing trouble" or something similar and ambiguous.

As long as the spellcard rules are in effect, Nobody dies during conflicts (However, I'm sure there are youkai that don't follow the rules and are thusly exterminated to keep peace). The point is that eventually everyone will follow the rules and killing will not (no longer?) be a factor in Gensokyo, keeping it a paradise. Reimu's job is to make sure Gensokyo doesn't fall into chaos, pretty much. As PCB showed, excessive chaos weakens the Hakurei border.

EDIT: I'm going to just throw out an odd comparison. When a spellcard duel is finished and the loser explodes, it is much like when a pokemon is sent into a pokeball. I wouldn't delve into it too much.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: orinrin on July 31, 2010, 11:46:20 PM: Quote from: Drake on July 31, 2010, 11:20:57 PM
EDIT: I'm going to just throw out an odd comparison. When a spellcard duel is finished and the loser explodes, it is much like when a pokemon is sent into a pokeball. I wouldn't delve into it too much.
Might wanna work on that analogy. :V
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Hello Purvis on August 01, 2010, 04:18:14 AM: Yeah, me and Antoine were playing each other on Shoddy last week, and I totally raped him with a Gyarados.

^^^^
It's kinda like that.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Sabino on August 01, 2010, 05:45:19 AM: More ever, about beating up anybody in sight, that's one thing so much people like about Reimu.
She doesn't differentiate between human and Youkai, and although it's on a different vector than the "equality" that Hijiri was aiming for, that's equality for Reimu.

It was funny because on NND play through of the stage lots of people commented "TsundeReimu" for that :D
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: ArteShy on August 01, 2010, 07:29:20 AM: We really need English-Gensokyo dictionary. Anyway, thanks for all the answers.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Napalnman1231 on August 02, 2010, 03:22:45 AM: Quote from: Drake on July 31, 2010, 11:20:57 PM
The japanese text literally talks about murdering, but considering the spellcard rules Remilia likely just dramatized it and Reimu went along, which is why she replied so nonchalantly. "Extermination" in the case of youkai likely means "stop them from causing trouble" or something similar and ambiguous.

As long as the spellcard rules are in effect, Nobody dies during conflicts (However, I'm sure there are youkai that don't follow the rules and are thusly exterminated to keep peace). The point is that eventually everyone will follow the rules and killing will not (no longer?) be a factor in Gensokyo, keeping it a paradise. Reimu's job is to make sure Gensokyo doesn't fall into chaos, pretty much. As PCB showed, excessive chaos weakens the Hakurei border.

EDIT: I'm going to just throw out an odd comparison. When a spellcard duel is finished and the loser explodes, it is much like when a pokemon is sent into a pokeball. I wouldn't delve into it too much.

so, in that case, "extermination" as a word, by his own meaning, don't need to fit here, also, not all youkai are bad, and we should consider the fact that it has to be called Neutralization
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Drake on August 02, 2010, 03:56:25 AM: p much what i'm saying

Because of the spellcard system you can't take words like "kill", "murder", "exterminate", "destroy" etc as their denotative meanings.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Tamer Anode/Cathode on August 02, 2010, 04:52:28 AM: Quote from: Drake on August 02, 2010, 03:56:25 AM
Because of the spellcard system you can't take words like "kill", "murder", "exterminate", "destroy" etc as their denotative meanings.
What about before Spell Cards? What happened to youkai like Orange?
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Tiamat on August 02, 2010, 05:03:55 AM: Quote from: Colossal, Abridged on August 02, 2010, 04:52:28 AM
What about before Spell Cards? What happened to youkai like Orange?

She joined Reimilia and got renamed to Mei Ling, if I had to guess.

In all (non?)seriousness, ZUN said you could ignore the old PC98 Touhou games when it came to "derivative works" if you wanted to (although even he's not listening to that advice. That's ZUN for ya)
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: swamp147 on August 02, 2010, 05:04:25 AM: Quote from: Colossal, Abridged on August 02, 2010, 04:52:28 AM
What about before Spell Cards? What happened to youkai like Orange?
I think it's ambiguous. She could've just been beat up, and then recovered. She could've been 'sealed', like Byakuren, or a less extreme form of sealing. Or she could've been killed. This seems unlikely, though, since she has dialogue after the battle.

Some of them, you can tell what happened.
Mystic Square spoilers
You see Yumeko and Shinki visit Reimu in Gensokyo in Reimu's good ending. So they probably just got beat up in a fight.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Drake on August 02, 2010, 05:57:40 AM: Pretty sure ZUN was just doing whatever came to mind during the PC98 games. The only works to obtain information from were the games, and the only semblance of continuity those had were reoccurring characters (Reimu, Marisa, Mima, Yuka, Alice, Genjii). In my opinion, it's safe to say that any attempt to apply logic to the PC98 games is pretty fruitless.

PMiSS states that the first use of the Spell Card rules was during EoSD, but this brings up another thing.

At around 1885AD, the Great Hakurei Border was built. Obviously, Reimu was not alive at this time. Sometime before 1998AD, the Vampire Incident occurred.

Originally, attacking humans was the point of the youkai existence, but since the erection of the Great Barrier it's become troublesome for them to do so, and they've had to find sources of food outside their normal choices; consequently, the collective willpower of the youkai began to drop.
It was into this situation that a powerful youkai from outside, a vampire, appeared, and quickly amassed a great number of subordinates.

These two events were more than 100 years apart. There must have been Hakurei maidens since the creation of the Great Border, and so if they were all human, it could be said that there have been at least three maidens, possibly including Reimu or not. In addition, the Vampire Incident was a good five years before EoSD, where the Spell Card rules were first used. Reimu did not know who Remilia was before the events of EoSD, and I'm fairly certain she had not previously fought any other vampires. However, the Hakurei maiden had defeated the vampire of the Vampire Incident to stop the youkai rebellion. This is the point at which the Spell Card rules were created, after the original contract was rejected by stronger youkai. It is doubtful that Reimu could have come to terms with so many youkai and have written such a deal. Mystic Square, circa 1998 (after the Vampire Incident), also did not use the Spell Card rules. So, if Reimu did not use the Spell Card rules that (presumably) she created, immediately after its creation, and no other incidents have occurred between MS and EoSD that Reimu did not resolve, who created the rules?

Reimu's mother, most likely.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Lord Phantasm Satori on August 02, 2010, 06:26:34 AM: shinki went back to makai, after all. speaking of which, Zun missed a great opportunity to bring her back in Touhou 12. She could've replaced the midbosses of levels 5 or 6.

the perfect example of what Drake is saying can be seen in Touhou 2. level 2 has nothing to do with anything as far as the story goes, and in Touhou 4's (I think) Extra, where you fight these random twins that have nothing to do with anything and lurk in their own dimension.

and to Drake about Mysitc Square, obviously the incident was so serious that the spell card thing had to be delayed. and what do you mean, mother? everyone knows that people in gensyoko just spring out of the ground! DUH! :P
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: game2011 on August 02, 2010, 11:44:05 AM: I've always wondered about Mystia getting eaten by Yuyuko and then returning alive in Touhou 9...
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Tengukami on August 02, 2010, 01:47:57 PM: Quote from: game2010 on August 02, 2010, 11:44:05 AM
I've always wondered about Mystia getting eaten by Yuyuko and then showing up alive in Touhou 9...

My pet theory is that since Yuyuko is a ghost, she doesn't really digest the things that she eats. You probably just sit inside her for a while before being rezzed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Hideki on August 02, 2010, 05:30:40 PM: Either that, or Yuyu was just joking.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Tengukami on August 02, 2010, 05:36:12 PM: There is a very strong possibility that that is the case.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Lord Phantasm Satori on August 02, 2010, 11:53:11 PM: I could never understand the whole concept of a Youkai eating a human, or a Youkai eating another Youkai. How on earth could you eat something that looks so much like yourself?... and you know who Reimu actually murdered? Rin. Enough said. :P
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Hello Purvis on August 03, 2010, 12:36:52 AM: I prefer to think Yuyuko was being ~~nonsensical~~ mettyforical as usual.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Drake on August 03, 2010, 12:38:02 AM: Quote from: Lord Phantasm Satori on August 02, 2010, 11:53:11 PM
I could never understand the whole concept of a Youkai eating a human, or a Youkai eating another Youkai. How on earth could you eat something that looks so much like yourself?
Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense :P
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Ayuka on August 03, 2010, 12:48:10 AM: Quote from: Lord Phantasm Satori on August 02, 2010, 11:53:11 PM
I could never understand the whole concept of a Youkai eating a human, or a Youkai eating another Youkai. How on earth could you eat something that looks so much like yourself?... and you know who Reimu actually murdered? Rin. Enough said. :P
Unless I'm horribly, horribly wrong (which I have been known to be), most youkai only take on a human form for the sake of convenience, so maybe they don't really see humans as 'looking like them'. But then again if they grew up looking like humans maybe they would see humans as looking like them?
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Hashmalum on August 03, 2010, 01:41:49 AM: I suspect that the bird that Yuyuko ate at the end of IN stage 2 was actually Mystia's familiar, which would likely be another bird (much like Aya has that crow; whatever it is, one of the spellcard comments indicates that her familiar can sing). Or else Yuyuko only ate part of Mystia like a wing or something before she was able to get away, but she was able to regenerate due to youkai canonically having much better powers of healing than normal humans. But I think the familiar thing is more likely.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Drake on August 03, 2010, 01:48:05 AM: Or the former likelihood of Yuyuko just trolling Youmu and Mystia.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Shizzo on August 03, 2010, 02:24:15 AM: I one thought of a bone flying out of nowhere and Yuyuko eating it, but it sounds too meeh
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: swamp147 on August 03, 2010, 02:56:50 AM: Quote from: Lord Phantasm Satori on August 02, 2010, 06:26:34 AM
shinki went back to makai, after all. speaking of which, Zun missed a great opportunity to bring her back in Touhou 12. She could've replaced the midbosses of levels 5 or 6.
Whaaaaat
Shinki would be like Phantasm boss. Yuki and Mai can be her midbosses. Yumeko can be Extra boss. Nue, get out.
Oh, and Luize can be Yumeko's midboss. Just because I love her.

I'll stop fantasizing now.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Tiamat on August 03, 2010, 04:18:37 PM: Quote from: Drake on August 02, 2010, 05:57:40 AM
However, the Hakurei maiden had defeated the vampire of the Vampire Incident to stop the youkai rebellion.

That's a mistranslation in the wiki. It was actually "powerful youkai" that beat the "vampire" in the Vampire Incident, not "the shrine maiden" in Reimu's Perfect Memento section.

The correct translation (a youkai(s) defeating the vampire, NOT the shrine maiden) removes the contradiction.
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on August 03, 2010, 06:24:25 PM: <Yuyuk> They see me trollin' ... they flamin' ... I know they all thinkin' that I'm typin' dirty~
Title: Re: Reimu Hakurei : Murderer of Youkai?
Post by: Drake on August 03, 2010, 11:50:41 PM: Quote from: Tiamat on August 03, 2010, 04:18:37 PM
That's a mistranslation in the wiki. It was actually "powerful youkai" that beat the "vampire" in the Vampire Incident, not "the shrine maiden" in Reimu's Perfect Memento section. The correct translation (a youkai(s) defeating the vampire, NOT the shrine maiden) removes the contradiction.
Even if the shrine maiden didn't beat up the vampire, the youkai who didn't like the original contract came to discuss it with the shrine maiden. Again, this was still a few years before EoSD. Even though the shrine maiden described (tired of no shenanigans) sounds like Reimu, I still have to wonder.