Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Beyond the Border~ => Akyu's Arcade => Topic started by: trancehime on July 05, 2010, 11:42:45 AM
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So, uh, a specific post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=6518.msg376893#msg376893) prompted me to make this thread, because it pushed me over my boiling point. I'm usually quite silent about my virulence towards such people, but I've just had it up to this point. Just about the time I've posted this thread, someone mentioned this in #touhou-meido:
19:33:15 (Rabbit) I can think of 3 possible reasons
19:33:29 (Rabbit) 1) approximately 85% of all people who play DotA are assholes
19:33:33 (Rabbit) 2) High learning curve
19:33:53 (Rabbit) 3) It takes up space on Battle.net that could be used for playing normal skirmish games :V
Number 1 is a double-edged sword - in this case, it is a perfectly valid reason to hate the game because everyone you play with are assholes. But calling the game shitty because the people are assholes is completely backwards logic because the people who play the game do not determine the quality of the game. Only the people who MAKE the game determine the quality of the game. Guinsoo was not an asshole (he went on to help develop League of Legends at Riot, a more casual and more laidback and friendly version of DotA - hardcore DotA players do not appreciate it very much but I know many people do), Eul was not an asshole, and IceFrog was not an asshole. DotA is definitely not a shitty game in and of itself.
Number 2 is the only valid reason I will truly acknowledge there for BOTH hating the game and considering the game is bad. Since the game itself requires a LOT of mechanics knowledge and practice to be able to become competent at the game, and the fact there are assholes being assholes, it's hard to get in practice games in public servers. However, you can circumvent the asshole problem by simply finding friends you know who do play. For instance, I played a 1v1 game with Pesco the other day via Hamachi. Sure, there was sick delay, but we managed a game and I'm pretty sure there was no swearing involved at all. And don't give me that bullshit saying everyone everywhere is an asshole - in the Philippines, one of the most commonly played PC games include Warcraft 3 TFT - only because everyone and their mom plays DotA, and aren't assholes about it in LAN games. I've played many games with Chinese people - they aren't assholes. Actually, most Asian DotA players aren't assholes - except the warhungry freaks on Garena, but LOL PUBLIC SERVERS. And there are only a few of those anyway, so it's not enough to be a hindrance.
19:34:33 (Rabbit) I don't know what kind of sunshine lollipops world you live in and I wish I could go there.
19:34:46 (Rabbit) A place where people play DotA for fun?
19:34:50 (EthlinHime) Yes?
19:34:58 (Rabbit) Holy shit sign me up
Number 3 is complete bias and I'm pretty sure that was a joke :V
Either way, I'm really curious as to why people hate DotA so damn much, or why they consider it the shittiest map ever made. I hate it, especially considering I'm a DotA player. Am I an elitist asshole? Maybe, but I don't consider myself one.
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As far as I can tell, DotA is a good map. Despite this, I dislike it for all of the three resons presented.
Reasoning number three is not a joke, though. Sometimes the game list is like 2/3 DotA and 1/3 awful TDs. There are many great maps that are not DotA, and if your network situation is such that you cannot host games online, you will rarely get a chance to play them because nobody hosts them.
Now, what really gets on my nerves is "Mauls". 90% of them are terribly imbalanced, made simply because somebody had the glorious idea that "a TD with buildings named after stuff from show/game/book/whatever would be sso cool ololol!".
Um, yeah, I guess that was a little off topic. Proceed.
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Reasoning number three is not a joke, though. Sometimes the game list is like 2/3 DotA and 1/3 awful TDs. There are many great maps that are not DotA, and if your network situation is such that you cannot host games online, you will rarely get a chance to play them because nobody hosts them.
I am sadly unaware of this fate because I do not have access to Battle.net, forgive me for my blatant ignorance and how much the times have changed. Last time I was on Battle.net, only 30% of the game list was DotA!
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I am sadly unaware of this fate because I do not have access to Battle.net, forgive me for my blatant ignorance and how much the times have changed. Last time I was on Battle.net, only 30% of the game list was DotA!
Well, last time I was on battle net was 2 or so years ago as well... :V
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Well, last time I was on battle net was 2 or so years ago as well... :V
For me it was 4-ish years ago when it was still Guinsoo et. al handling it. Or so.
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Pretty much what rabbit said.
The learning curve is huge, and the elitist players that go along with the game don't help you to learn any.
I played Naruto Wars as a stand in. It was a little less complex and more easily understood since I had prior Naruto knowledge before hand.
But nobody makes forum topics about, "Hey lets play Naruto Wars!"
No, I wouldn't call Dota in itself a poorly made or too hard game in which would make it bad.
I think the same about COD:MW2. Its commitment I do not have.
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Horrible, horrible community and a gameplay style I do not enjoy. These are my major gripes. Especially the early game grinding thing.
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Relys on stat boosters way to much and makes people claim AotZ sucked. Can't make a large post atm so ask riz if you want more of A similar opinion before I get back.
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Well, I dislike dota, and its overall quality as a game is low IMO, BUT it's not low as a map for a game. I mean I would never ever spend $50 on it like I do other games I enjoy or whatever, and I'd really think dota fans view the game in a better light than it really is. Please don't get upset with me here, I'm just trying to convey why I dislike it, and think it's over-rated
While I agree that calling a game bad because the playerbase is bad (public player base should be considered a given in a game where multiplayer is a MUST sorry) becaue the developers have no control over that, DoTA has both a lack of depth, and drowning amounts of depth. As a player, you get a hero, and your strategies are very limited to that hero, at most you have 4 abilities (some of which you may not even get until the game is already heavily leaning in or against your favor). And while the number of items you can shop for are extensive, again, many of those items are so pricey that by t he time you can afford more than 1 or 2 of the non-minor ones, the game is again already tipped towards one team. Plus the items you SHOULD get given your chosen hero, abilities to level, and playstyle is often very limited in terms of what's a no brainer, what's a good idea, and what's just totally not worth it.
The actual challenge of the game comes from memorizing the absolutely STAGGERING number of enemy heroes and items, yes memorize. It's not about reacting to an enemy's strategy, or using advanced logic to predict what they will do. It's simply knowing their hero, knowing what moves that hero is, and you can pretty much know their strategy right from the start. THIS is why the learning curve is so high. You don't just "twitch" your way to victory against the unknown, it just doesn't happen (unless the enemy doesn't know your hero as well). So in my opinion its learning curve is semi-"fake", because you aren't really given a whole lot of control and options to play with (outside the initial select a hero thing) that are viable, but you're simply required to memorize so much.
DoTA actually reminds me of chess. I think that chess is a joke now. Nobody plays chess on a professional level without actually MEMORIZING EFFING PERMUTATIONS. I mean how stupid is that? Its just not a game at that point. They study a game with millions of permutations for hours into days into years, and it ends up actually being a game based on how much the other studied, and how much they can memorize. It's honestly pretty sad to me where they actually have names for certain permutations and positions and all that, it's really hard for me to see it as a game at that point. Chess as a game, wasn't originally designed so that you are required to be at this level of play to begin with. It just became so popular that it simply happened because of that silly notion that playing chess means your smart and sophisticated. DoTA on the other hand was pretty much designed to be like that.
All that being said, as I said, I don't think DoTA is a bad map, and even if I think it's not worth $50 as a game, I wouldn't really make a fuss if it was priced at the doujin game level (not that it's priced at anything, but people treat it like a commercial $50 game), and it IS a doujin game pretty much (doujin map rather). So I am more critical about it than I am other warcraft 3 maps. It's DEFINITELY way better than plenty of warcraft 3 maps out there that I don't say are bad or whatever. The reason is because people like DoTA too much IMO. I mean you yourself I don't consider one of these people. You're a hardcore gamer, and you spend a lot of time playing TONS of different games, I know that a great deal of the DoTA fanbase on the other hand play DoTA for more than half their free time, and only DoTA, over and over and over, like it's some MMORPG they are hopelessly addicted to. It's just not THAT good.
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The actual challenge of the game comes from memorizing the absolutely STAGGERING number of enemy heroes and items, yes memorize.
never played it but it sucks
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I would prefer the players be playing other AoS maps other than DotA. Everyone I know that plays that map refuses to try any other map because they think it's inferior. The map itself was decent a couple years ago, but then they started piling more heroes into more taverns. Sometimes I like to be able to identify with the hero I'm using. I really don't like having over 80 heroes with skills that overlap with other heroes (20+ versions of Storm Bolt?). I would much rather take a handful of unique heroes that had a lot of thought and work put into them rather than having so many generic ones.
Relys on stat boosters way to much and makes people claim AotZ sucked. Can't make a large post atm so ask riz if you want more of A similar opinion before I get back.
Huh, AotZ is one of my favorite maps in WC3. It is very skill-reliant, whereas DotA is more stats/items reliant. One of the things I liked about AotZ was the fact that every hero had really unique abilities that could never be mistaken for another heroes' skill. I mean, the demon hunter guy had a massive AoE rape spell (by massive I mean it could kill every hero in range, including allied heroes) that took 12 seconds to cast. It may be over the top and unbalanced when you first see it, but then you realize that every other hero has an ability with similar power. Also, heroes have 3 skills and 2 ultimates in that map, where DotA has 3 skills, 1 ultimate, and 1 stat booster. I should point out one more thing about AotZ. It is very visually impressive and has well scripted spells that use JASS. Most of the stuff I see in DotA are mostly GUI ones. I know there are exceptions, but this is what I generally noticed. DotA is not a bad map, it's the fan base that made it unapproachable.
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AotZ's heros all felt awesomely broken but because of that it felt fair. Myriad was A very unique hero that ive not seen done in any other maps.
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I would prefer the players be playing other AoS maps other than DotA. Everyone I know that plays that map refuses to try any other map because they think it's inferior. The map itself was decent a couple years ago, but then they started piling more heroes into more taverns. Sometimes I like to be able to identify with the hero I'm using. I really don't like having over 80 heroes with skills that overlap with other heroes (20+ versions of Storm Bolt?). I would much rather take a handful of unique heroes that had a lot of thought and work put into them rather than having so many generic ones.
BUT BUT BUT SVEN'S STORM BOLT IS /SPECIAL/ IT'S AOE Q_Q
On a serious note, there's nothing I can say about people who consider maps like AotZ and ToB inferior, because I don't associate myself with those people - I mean, Tides of Blood is the goddamn shit but I can't play it with anyone because nobody really plays it nowadays.
DotA is not a bad map, it's the fan base that made it unapproachable.
I'm not going to harp on anyone for finding the game unapproachable because of the fanbase, that's really understandable but calling the game shitty because of it, as I said, is goddamn stupid and one of the most backwards reasonings someone could ever use for calling the game shit. It's like, "hate the player, not the game." Anyway, I'm glad you cleared this up because I seriously thought you found the game shit because of the fanbase not that you actually just didn't really find it fun to play.
Since I don't have enough time to make a good post to discuss Ghaleon's points (I believe I've locked horns with him before over DotA because I am a diehard DotA player with about 4 to 5 years of experience with it) I'll just make one or two important points that I wanted to make clear.
DotA is a game of teamwork. There's barely any depth if you're looking at it as a solo hero. The only time you would ever use a modicum of skill as a single player is in 1v1 matches and those are rarely played unless you're bored as fuck because 1v1 games are pathetic, hands down. There is a REASON why the preferred number of people in a team is the full five, because if you have any less, the strategies you deploy are far more different and you start with far more money. For example, you would never get Rylai's Freezing Field ultimate early on if you were in a 3v3 match, but it's far more viable in a 5v5 match because you would deal far more AoE damage since you're targetting more enemy heroes in a clash.
If you think DotA doesn't require "advanced logic" and "reaction to strategy," you are quite incorrect. In fact, playing mindgames and reacting to on-the-fly strategies is what differentiates a casual player to someone who takes the game seriously - baiting, using skill items like Kelen's Dagger of Escape and using the juke points are all ways in which players can use the map to their advantage when fighting. When you're near death, using things like the Quelling Blade's Tree Chop or Tangoes to clear trees for an escape path and lead the enemy to their own death, is a common strategy in Inhouse games or for higher level players. Pushing one's hero to their limits is something that differentiates higher level players from lower level players. If you have lifesteal and high damage and you're almost dying, fighting back is almost far more preferable to running away. Guess what most common players do? They run away and then die because they are still at low life, so the enemy will just kill them or their teammate will assist. If they stay and fight, they may get a kill, or buy time for their own teammate to assist and kill THEM instead.
While I don't deny that DotA is more items and stats based, and I respect that if that promotes a playstyle you dislike, you wouldn't like it for sure. That's a matter of taste, I would never argue against that. But saying that certain aspects of it are absent even if they aren't shows that you haven't given it enough time to really see that. Of course, I'm not saying it's your fault - if you don't like it, why would you spend time playing it, no? Either way.
I'll discuss this crap in more in-depth when i get home from uni
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I stopped playing DotA for one reason: the cybercafe I used to go to had closed down. :V
This means that I'm really outdated about this map/game, but I too disagree with Ghaleon. Sure, the game's more item/level based, but (besides Trance having mentioned the teamwork) there's quite a lot of possibilities/options. Do you feel that enemies are focusing on you, or do you want to be able to last longer as a strenght hero, so you can attack those who're attacking your nukers or allies with low HP? Invest in more defense (Centaur+Blade Mail and maybe Radiance?). Is your teamwork going well enough so that you as Dwarven Sniper isn't worried about enemies daring to close in to you? What about giving Sange & Yasha to him, to make enemies on range become really slow?
Seriously, I think that I haven't played DotA for as much time as Hime did, but there was really a lot of fun moments.. when I played in said cyber cafe, at least. At one time, for example, an enemy Venomancer died while trading hits with our Demon Witch ( I guess it was my friend's favorite hero, he either got lucky with getting him, or exchanged heroes with our allies ). My friend yelled that he's got him (the Venomancer), while my other friend (the one using Venomancer) said that he was going to die, from the poison. Not long before the Venomancer died, our Demon Witch ran away from that place, and my friend (the Venomancer player) was looking at my friend's monitor (he wanted to watch the Demon Witch die). To his disgust, I (I was using Omniknight, despite sucking at support heroes or him in specific at that time, at least) reached my friend and healed him just enough to allow him to return to our base and recover himself. Lots of laughs came right after. :D (actually, it was my other friend, who was in our team, who saw that situation between my two friends, and has told me to go there, because he felt that the Demon Witch was going to need a heal :p)
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I spent over 5 years playing DotA and other AoS maps. If that isn't enough experience I don't know what is. I need to clarify that I didn't always hate it. Half a decade ago, I would play DotA almost exclusively on Battle.net (literally, I would come home from school, shower, and boot up WC3). Almost 99% of the games I played were in a pub though, so that would obviously affect my judgement when it comes to the game. One of the reasons why I played the map so much was because of how easy it was to win matches against lesser skilled players. I feel horrible for listing that as a reason, but I was obviously quite immature during those times. I didn't necessarily have fun, I just wanted to triumph and gloat over the other players. It was quite easy to completely control a match once you managed to steal almost every kill and stack your hero up with expensive items. It felt incredibly one-sided too. As time passed, I eventually grew over my childish desire to "pwn noobs" (a couple years late though :V ) and moved on to other maps/games.
I still play a couple matches every month or so and the game has gotten much more balanced then it was before (relatively that is). DotA is quite decent if you play in small doses. Every game has it's flaws so why should I expect DotA to be the win-all, perfect game?
Also, to the person that mentioned memorization as a key factor in winning games, that could be quite debatable. When I was steamrolling pubbies by being a complete ass and stealing kills, I could barely remember the names of the spells, let alone know what they did. All I did as spam attack-moves all over the map.
DotA isn't shit (I was being sarcastic in the other topic, I realize it's really, really, hard to tell that over the net, my apologies), it's just I don't want other maps to be overshadowed by it. I seriously become annoyed when people say DotA is the greatest thing since canned meat. Those people have never bothered to try anything else and it really irks me when they claim something so grand.
Note: I did play some pre-made matches and I can tell you that those are nothing like pub matches. In pub matches, there is no skill whatsoever involved. If I could find people to play with that aren't complete assholes like I was when I was young, I totally would.
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i used to love dota a lot, and i still think that it's a briliant game, but i've quit now.
reasons why i don't play anymore:
1) community
it's true, dotards are complete assholes.
2) time
it takes quite a lot of time to finish one game. about 30~50 minutes per match in my time.
Now, many things can go wrong because of this.
1: people leave for whatever reasons
this obviously screws the balance of the match up, by having imbalanced teams / passing their items to their teammates etc.
2: the result could be decided early in the game
it's not uncommon for a side to be winning since the first 15 minutes this means everyone wastes their next 30 minutes
there are more but they're leaking from the top of my head.
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I agree with the "85% of the players are assholes" thing.
In fact, in this here country, it is the main reason kids cut classes.
...apart from laziness, of course.
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While I agree that calling a game bad because the playerbase is bad (public player base should be considered a given in a game where multiplayer is a MUST sorry) becaue the developers have no control over that, DoTA has both a lack of depth, and drowning amounts of depth. As a player, you get a hero, and your strategies are very limited to that hero, at most you have 4 abilities (some of which you may not even get until the game is already heavily leaning in or against your favor). And while the number of items you can shop for are extensive, again, many of those items are so pricey that by t he time you can afford more than 1 or 2 of the non-minor ones, the game is again already tipped towards one team. Plus the items you SHOULD get given your chosen hero, abilities to level, and playstyle is often very limited in terms of what's a no brainer, what's a good idea, and what's just totally not worth it.
Skill builds are as flexible as you make them out to be. Item builds are as flexible as you make them out to be. Let me cite an example of a very popular hero who is used very often both in the competitive scene and in the casual scene - Shendelzare Silkwood, the Vengeful Spirit. She has four very simple skills - a single target stun, a -armor, -damage skill in a line AoE, a +damage aura, and a single target position swapping skill. Each of these skills are very simple to understand, but the power of the skills to level up at what time, and how to use her swap skill - Nether Swap, her ultimate, can be analyzed in more depth.
Her stun, Magic Missile, is a skill most players tend to max out immediately at Level 7 (Lv4 Magic Missile does about 325 damage, stuns for 1.75 seconds, and costs 140 mana or something). I actually do this too in smaller games, because you can afford the INT items needed for mana upkeep early on. However, in a proper situation, you would never max out Magic Missile early-game, because the stun duration is the same at all levels, that is to say, Lv1 Magic Missile and Lv4 Magic Missile both stun for 1.75 seconds. However, Lv1 Magic Missile only costs 95 mana. That's far more spammable than a MM that costs 45 more mana.
Here I will compare two Lv1-7 early-game phase skill builds I snatched from random recent guides.
| Level | Build 1 | Build 2 |
| 1 | Magic Missile (MM) | Magic Missile (MM) |
| 2 | Wave of Terror (WoT) | Wave of Terror (WoT) |
| 3 | MM | WoT |
| 4 | WoT | Command Aura (CA) |
| 5 | MM | WoT |
| 6 | Nether Swap | Nether Swap |
| 7 | MM | WoT |
Summary;
Build 1 - Magic Missile Lv4/Wave of Terror Lv2/Swap Lv1
Build 2 - Magic Missile Lv1/Wave of Terror Lv4/Command Aura Lv1/Swap Lv1
Now, the table is probably meaningless to you, so I will explain what I mean. Build 1 is more viable in smaller games, because you start out with more money to buy the necessary items that allow you to upkeep a 140 Mana stun that early. However, Build 2 is just as reliable in the same game, because Wave of Terror allows you to deal more damage to the enemy by lowering their armor. Furthermore, at Lv4, it deals 100 damage to creeps, allowing you to last hit far more easily and allows you to push faster. You can also take more punishment from the enemies' lowered damage. However, you don't get these benefits with a half-levelled WoT and the most mileage you get out of build 1 is a powerful stun that renders you with virtually no mana unless your ITEM build is compatible with it. Either way, there are many ways to build hero skills, these two builds are not the only one.
This leads me to my next point: Item builds with Shendelzare. There are MANY MANY MANY possibilities. Most competitive games delegate the VS as a pure supporter, handing her extremely minimal gear - Power Treads (STR) or Boots of Travel late-game, packed with a Magic Wand and a lot of Dusts of Appearance and/or Observer/Sentry Wards. Usually, the only item a competitive VS would buy are Boots of Speed and wards, to be able to gank straight at level 1. In public games, VS is built more as a DPSer and/or offensive tank, capitalizing on her stun and the fact she needs to survive enemy focus when she Nether Swaps with a strategic target. Either way, you can be creative with your item builds with ANYONE - you just have to be skilful enough to pull it off.
The actual challenge of the game comes from memorizing the absolutely STAGGERING number of enemy heroes and items, yes memorize. It's not about reacting to an enemy's strategy, or using advanced logic to predict what they will do. It's simply knowing their hero, knowing what moves that hero is, and you can pretty much know their strategy right from the start. THIS is why the learning curve is so high. You don't just "twitch" your way to victory against the unknown, it just doesn't happen (unless the enemy doesn't know your hero as well). So in my opinion its learning curve is semi-"fake", because you aren't really given a whole lot of control and options to play with (outside the initial select a hero thing) that are viable, but you're simply required to memorize so much.
You HAVE to react and adapt to an enemy's strategy to win. How can you win a game if you keep failing against the enemy's strategies if you don't react to it? You'll get tossed around like a ragdoll. You also don't have to memorize how to play every single goddamn hero ever, not everyone in the goddamn world is at Yamateh's level, or Vigoss' level, and those two are like professional players or some shit (Loda's passe, man, and KuroKy's overrated). Let me cite some examples where you have to REACT:
--> Being harassed by a Demon Witch or a Slayer, or any goddamn nuker ever? Get a Hood of Defiance/Khadgar's Pipe of Insight for the team.
--> Are you a good carry and need a silence or a disable? Get an Orchid's Malevolence or a Eul's Sceptre of Divinity
--> Do you need to act as a tank against nukers, and/or save your teammates? Get a Black King Bar
--> Do you need to stop single-target spells like Finger of Death, Laguna Blade, Nether Swap, and a plethora of stuns? Get a Linken's Sphere
--> Are you facing a team that has no nukes or spells at all, and are getting killed? Get a Ghost Scepter
--> Are you facing evasion whores? Get a Monkey King Bar
--> Need to mitigate poison damage or Lucy's Doom? Get a Vanguard or some HP regen items
--> Is the game late, and you don't have enough space for teleport scrolls, and are a carry? Replace your Treads/Phase Boots with a Boots of Travel
--> Is Warlock's Infernal giving you a hard time? Get a Diffusal Blade and use Purge.
--> Do the enemy team have Linken's Spheres? Use a cheap single-target spell to stop it, or use skills like Dwarven Sniper's Shrapnel
--> Need to chase, and Blink Dagger ain't enough? Get either Phase Boots or Lothar's Edge
and the list goes on and on and on. Really, the learning curve IS high, but definitely NOT because of memorization. It is because you need to get in many games at once to learn how to REALLY play, and learn how to react to certain situations that take place in the game, and learn counters, and learn how to stop a lot of bad things from happening to you. And the general consensus here is that - LOL DOTARDS ARE ASSHOLES THEY WON'T LET ME PLAY BAWWWWWW. Seriously, I have NEVER had such an issue, maybe it's because I was "blessed" with friends who are more obsessed than I am with the game. Anyway.
DoTA actually reminds me of chess. I think that chess is a joke now. Nobody plays chess on a professional level without actually MEMORIZING EFFING PERMUTATIONS. I mean how stupid is that? Its just not a game at that point. They study a game with millions of permutations for hours into days into years, and it ends up actually being a game based on how much the other studied, and how much they can memorize. It's honestly pretty sad to me where they actually have names for certain permutations and positions and all that, it's really hard for me to see it as a game at that point. Chess as a game, wasn't originally designed so that you are required to be at this level of play to begin with. It just became so popular that it simply happened because of that silly notion that playing chess means your smart and sophisticated. DoTA on the other hand was pretty much designed to be like that.
DotA was NOT designed to be like Chess, what the fuck? You're blatantly making assumptions, assumptions that aren't even true! DotA was designed to be a hero-based, co-operative competitive game, like Counterstrike except in some sort of weird RTS format. On a professional level, the team who wins in a DotA game is not based on "how much they studied," it's based on "how much they planned," and "how well they played," and "how often they practiced." DotA wasn't designed so that you are required to be at a professional level of play EITHER, that doesn't explain the millions and millions of public games that are being hosted every day. Kingsurf is a team that lots of players hype because they are genuinely good, but they have their bad days when Yamateh fails as a carry for some reason or whatever. CH (City Hunters) is a popular team as well, they aren't always in top form. MYM (Meet Your Makers) are also a very hyped team, mainly because of maelk, but maelk ain't always at the best either. Either way, professional games in DotA are just like professional SPORTS - it requires practice, and teams don't always perform at their best even if they are considered a very good team, just like in basketball, in football, in baseball... I don't see how you can compare DotA, a competitive game with a healthy metagame with Chess, a game that doesn't have much of a developing metagame PERIOD.
All that being said, as I said, I don't think DoTA is a bad map, and even if I think it's not worth $50 as a game, I wouldn't really make a fuss if it was priced at the doujin game level (not that it's priced at anything, but people treat it like a commercial $50 game), and it IS a doujin game pretty much (doujin map rather). So I am more critical about it than I am other warcraft 3 maps. It's DEFINITELY way better than plenty of warcraft 3 maps out there that I don't say are bad or whatever. The reason is because people like DoTA too much IMO. I mean you yourself I don't consider one of these people. You're a hardcore gamer, and you spend a lot of time playing TONS of different games, I know that a great deal of the DoTA fanbase on the other hand play DoTA for more than half their free time, and only DoTA, over and over and over, like it's some MMORPG they are hopelessly addicted to. It's just not THAT good.
HoN, which is basically a DotA rip-off, is actually priced at around $30, for what it's worth. I know for sure I'm not paying money for that game. Anyway, that aside, I think it's more that too many people like DotA rather than people liking it too much. I can see why you're critical of the game but ehhhhh I disagree with too much of what you're saying, I'm sorry.
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My view of DotA:
On a high level of play; really, really a test of teamwork. If you play with friends it is very possible screw up your real life relationship with them.
People around my area are however more than happy to pass the time with this map for some reason, be it public or inhouse.
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Maybe it's just me, but when people use the phrase "DotA-styled map", it really pisses me off. The genre name is Aeon of Strife for Christ's sake. I sure as hell don't refer to every shmup as "that Touhou-look-alike game". I'm not sure if people understand this gripe, but I'll just leave it up for debate.
I'm curious to know what everyone's first encounter with DotA was though. I believe mine was roughly 8-9 years ago (I feel old school now)when I was still playing RoC. There were less than a dozen heroes per side and we used circles of power to select them instead of taverns. Those were good times. I wish DotA could switch back to having around 8 heroes per side. I'm pretty sure most people agree that all the heroes added afterwards were pretty unneeded. I mean, why can't we just improve on the older heroes instead of making new ones? It sounds to me like they just wanted a way to vent their creativity (not that I have any problem with that).
Note: Aeon of Strife was coined from the Starcraft map AFAIK. I only played it a couple times but it was really groundbreaking at the time.
Edit: WC3 did not invent TDs. Just throwing that out there.
Another Edit: Wikipedia says the first version came out in 2003, yet mine dates back to 2002. ???
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I call Heroes of Newerth a "DotA ripoff" because it is practically a copy of DotA aside from the reskinning.
League of Legends is much more suited to be called an Aeon of Strife styled map because champions are all original, aside from HoN which is practically a carbon copy of DotA. Anyway, I played Aeon of Strife before I moved on to RoC DotA for a while. I learned about Guinsoo's Allstars and gave that a shot, and then I was hooked~ Cue now~
I'm pretty sure most people agree that all the heroes added afterwards were pretty unneeded.
I would get pretty bored of the same 8 heroes all the goddamn time actually.
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I don't want to argue much on matters of taste, but there are some things that irk me because I don't think I really made my point properly.
Build 1 - Magic Missile Lv4/Wave of Terror Lv2/Swap Lv1
Build 2 - Magic Missile Lv1/Wave of Terror Lv4/Command Aura Lv1/Swap Lv1
Either way, there are many ways to build hero skills, these two builds are not the only one.
That may be true, but I just think in a game where you only have 1 hero to play with, and no smaller units (asides from temporary minions your hero summons), the level of customization is really quite poor. Again, this is a MAP not a standalone game, so that's forgiveable. But I don't really see why people would want to invest several hours a day several days a week for years on end on such a game, I'd much rather play a game with far greater customization for my solo-hero.
You HAVE to react and adapt to an enemy's strategy to win. How can you win a game if you keep failing against the enemy's strategies if you don't react to it? You'll get tossed around like a ragdoll. You also don't have to memorize how to play every single goddamn hero ever, not everyone in the goddamn world is at Yamateh's level, or Vigoss' level, and those two are like professional players or some shit (Loda's passe, man, and KuroKy's overrated). Let me cite some examples where you have to REACT:
Obviously you can't be a sleeping afker and expect to win. I'm not talking about extremes here. But I'm sorry, I still think you need more memorization than simple reflexes and smart reactions in order to win. This isn't about memorizing your OWN hero so much as the enemies.
A new player gets into a game of DoTA, therefore he hasn't memorized anything.
1: He gets killed because he had no clue that that abomination could grab him thru the forest into the waiting maws of an enemy hero and his ally, what a stupid noob, l2play.
2: He didn't know that even if he's a fairly powerful melee oriented hero, that going against that troll axe thrower who can swap to melee is not a good idea unless you have an ally who can dps while you get stunlocked (or vice versa)
3: He doesn't know that even if you have full health, and the enemy is at 1%, going after him alone is a VERY bad idea when that enemy is that blademaster.
4: He doesn't know that attacking that axe hero early in the game is a bad idea because of counter attack
5: He doesn't know that lucifer can silence and place a very powerful dot on you with spell that lasts #@%@#%ing forever...Oh, and that lucifer can pretty much 1-shot you if you aren't a high-health hero as soon as you hit level 4/5 with that level-nuke thing.
6: He doesn't know which heros can stun or snare or slow or whatever, and hence, doesn't know which heroes he can run away from without the assistance of run away artifacts, and which he can.
If you don't know these things, you can have the reflexes of a cat, and if you find yourself in such a situation above that you didn't memorize in advance, you're DEAD. THIS is what makes the learning curve so bad.
Furthermore, you talk about "reacting" to certain situations by buying items....Buying items requires a degree of memorization in itself. A very experienced player can buy like 3 items, and a scroll to create an end-game item in like 5 seconds. Knowing in advance how much the total cost will be. A not so experienced player will be fumbling around at the shop for up to a full minute, sometimes failing to realize that they can't even afford the item quite yet, wasting precious time. This matters a LOT.
DotA was NOT designed to be like Chess, what the fuck? You're blatantly making assumptions, assumptions that aren't even true! DotA was designed to be a hero-based, co-operative competitive game, like Counterstrike except in some sort of weird RTS format.
I didn't say DoTA was designed to be like chess itself. I meant that it was designed (in its current state of 100+ heroes, I'm not talking about AoS here or whatever) in a way that players are absolutely required to have heaps of experience and/or studytime regarding the game itself in order to even have a fighting change at it against a pub full of supposed noobs. Sure you can have a fair game if you're brand new (like chess) if you're playing with a close friend or your mom or something, but as soon as you enter a bottom-tier game on the public level, you'll find yourself getting owned by people who clearly know all the heroes, and EXPECT you to too. They'll KICK YOU from the "noobs only" game if they find out that you didn't know that hero #78 has ability #385.
Now I know the game designers didn't design the crowd playing it to be assholes. But the point is they designed it so that you MUST spend days on it to even figure out HOW to play every (or even 1/4, and against 1/4, let alone all) hero.
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See, this is why I play Demigod. :V
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1: He gets killed because he had no clue that that abomination could grab him thru the forest into the waiting maws of an enemy hero and his ally, what a stupid noob, l2play.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. If you get grabbed once, for fuck's sake you don't let it happen to you again. Most people yell "L2PLAY" at shitty hooks, not at people who get caught by the hooks. Even if you DO know that Pudge can grab you through the forest, a very good Pudge can predict where you're running and grab you ANYWAY, so you still have to know where that hook's going to come out. Letting yourself get grabbed by a hook or something isn't necessarily "noobish," but you WILL get yelled at if you consistently miss your hooks and make predictable, shitty hooks, this is why I don't play that hero because I don't feel like practicing it.
2: He didn't know that even if he's a fairly powerful melee oriented hero, that going against that troll axe thrower who can swap to melee is not a good idea unless you have an ally who can dps while you get stunlocked (or vice versa)
3: He doesn't know that even if you have full health, and the enemy is at 1%, going after him alone is a VERY bad idea when that enemy is that blademaster.
4: He doesn't know that attacking that axe hero early in the game is a bad idea because of counter attack
These are all cases that, if they happen once, you won't necessarily get yelled at.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. If you get grabbed once, for fuck's sake you don't let it happen to you again.
Rinse and repeat for points 2 to 4. Either way, most people, even if tehy are assholes, will cry foul to feeders, not people who die once because they didn't know that particular skill.
5: He doesn't know that lucifer can silence and place a very powerful dot on you with spell that lasts #@%@#%ing forever...Oh, and that lucifer can pretty much 1-shot you if you aren't a high-health hero as soon as you hit level 4/5 with that level-nuke thing.
Getting Doomed? Buy Vanguard
Getting LVL? Death'd? Buy Hood of Defiance, alternatively the 300+ HP boost from VG is enough
6: He doesn't know which heros can stun or snare or slow or whatever, and hence, doesn't know which heroes he can run away from without the assistance of run away artifacts, and which he can.
You don't need run away artifacts to run away. Though I have to admit you need to spend one or two games to know the map itself. =w=
The point is, I don't think they designed it so you must spend AGES for it either - I bet they designed it because it seemed like a fun and cool idea at the time. The community TURNED it into something popular, into something that warranted e-sports status. I'm trying my best not to sound like an elitist here because I'm actually one of those players who memorize item costs (While I was playing LAN with my cousins, one of them asked me how much the Linken's Sphere recipe was even if she was my enemy, so I told her because I'm nice~). Either way,
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>> 1: He gets killed because he had no clue that that abomination could grab him thru the forest into the waiting maws of an enemy hero and his ally, what a stupid noob, l2play.
believe me, once you get to know the heroes' potentials, you'll have a lot of fun foreseeing the possibilities from both your team and maybe the opponent's, and even more fun when your plan works well. Everybody have to start somewhere, some learn faster than others, but that time doesn't matter, once you've gotten past the basic learning stage. I mean, it's fun when you play against someone of your same degree of skill.
Don't be turned down from being defeated, as long as you had fun exercising your mind. "A lesson learned from a defeat is much more valuable than an empty victory."
>> 2: : He didn't know that even if he's a fairly powerful melee oriented hero, that going against that troll axe thrower who can swap to melee is not a good idea unless you have an ally who can dps while you get stunlocked (or vice versa)
there are other situations similar to this one as well (trying to finish off Omniknight without knowing about his defense-boosting Ultimate, or trying to finish a certain hero which I've forgotten, but can swap hps with enemies and allies.. or trying to finish a strength character who can stun you or outlast you or some character who can simply get away if the situation becomes too dangerous..), but they're quite easy to learn, and not as frustrating if you're playing and learning from friends.. and doesn't care as much about defeats as you care for learning and exercising your mind.
I think I got an easy entry to the game, through friends, and felt that playing and learning was worth the effort.
#3 and #5 have some remarkable moments (nothing new to more experienced players, though. Basically, counters to blademaster's ulti and.. me wanting to cry -- okay, not really crying, but you get the idea :p -- , the moment that I found out that me as Lucy couldn't take much advantage from his ulti, when the opposing team had both the Omniknight and the Lord of Avernus, both of them being able to cancel my ultimate entirely with simpler skills :V ).. okay. I'll admit that my Treant Protector was owning someday, breaking the other team, and then one of my friends playing as Lucy has countered me by disabling my skills with his ulti, which turned the match's balance to their favor.. it was a fun match, even if I lost it.
#6 takes a bit of uncompromised practice (3 vs 3 or 1 vs 1, speaking of personal experience) to solve :p (some friends' advice do help here.. as long as they aren't close minded and thus limit themselves to their own playstyles)
>> If you don't know these things, you can have the reflexes of a cat, and if you find yourself in such a situation above that you didn't memorize in advance, you're DEAD. THIS is what makes the learning curve so bad.
it's easy to learn those, if you have friends and is interested about seeing the game's potential.. once you've learned enough, then reflexes will be more and more important, but not the sole attribute for winning. Really, when I played DotA, I felt I had so little to keep in mind (perhaps the "don'ts" from previous matches, which occur naturally to me, effortlessly), and was just freestyling, feeling for example what I would need for my hero and how to make that possible (I don't know if it's okay to buy items for other players, though :p )
>> Sure you can have a fair game if you're brand new (like chess) if you're playing with a close friend or your mom or something, but as soon as you enter a bottom-tier game on the public level, you'll find yourself getting owned by people who clearly know all the heroes, and EXPECT you to too. They'll KICK YOU from the "noobs only" game if they find out that you didn't know that hero #78 has ability #385.
most competitive games will have similar situations as well :p
A good player wouldn't care about winning against people who can't defend themselves as well as they can, these players you mentioned are bullies in my book (which would likely run away from better players, as the latter don't make them feel better), if they knew that it was a newbie-only game/room. I wouldn't recommend getting tutored online, as that can be a long task.. but would recommend getting a friend to play with you, and learning slowly.
Even today, if I were to play the old versions again (from where I stopped. I think it's over 2 years ago, the Geomancer was one of the latest heroes), I could get back in quite a short time, and my memorization isn't something that I'm proud of, mind you.
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Yes, I'm aware that it's generally a good idea to learn from your mistakes. But I think you guys are failing to realize that if you're not a diehard DOTA fan to begin with, the amount of time you have to invest to learn all the potential mistakes with and against all 100ish of the heroes is actually quite significant. I'm sorry but you're simply being stubborn if you refuse to believe that.
The game's learning curve isn't high because it takes awhile for people to understand the depth of hp, spelldamage, creep killing, denying, pushing, map watching, etc. It takes awhile because almost every game has over 10 deadly things that you will get owned by if you don't know about it in advance, and unless you have memory superpowers, chances are you wont remember them all, especially with the stress that is included with the bad attitude everyone has in public.
I never denied that all this can be greatly reduced if you learned in private with a good friend, so there's really no point arguing that point. But the problem is that's not exactly an option for everyone.
Ever played an MMORPG? More often than not when a new dungeon is released, the whole crowd is like ZOMG THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE NERF IT NOWWW!!!.
Then when some new guy with far worse gear than what everyone had when that dungeon was released (because they are still leveling up and didn't have the opportunity to get top-quality gear for that level range because they were capped at the time) makes a mistake or claims something is difficult, the masses are like "LOL NO ITS EZ"...The funny thing is 90% of the time the people who claim it's easy are being carried and really aren't even capable of doing it with a group of equal skill to themselves too.
memorizing the costs and locations of the item shop isn't hardcore, it's standard, and expected, even in a "noobs only" game in terms of pubs. Right from the entry point, you're expected to know stuff by heart without thought that can only be learned from the amount of time it takes to complete your average JRPG in its entirety. So while this may not be a problem with friends or family or something, it certainly is in a public game, which is the majority of games.
If I wanted to play DOTA (and I don't, not because of the reasons I mentioned, I actually have learned a fair amount now already anyway, I just don't like the style of gameplay.. solo-hero control RTS maps just aren't my cup of tea), and I was invited to some friendly matches with some people on these forums, I'd accept, and all these points would probably make no difference, but unfortunately, for most people this isn't an option.
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I was never a "diehard DotA fan to begin with."
Look at me now.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge your points, I am simply stating that they aren't very strong points in calling the design choices of the game bad.
And you mentioning that you MUST start games already knowing these things because people will call you shitty is a community fault. Again, that's leading to the whole - THE COMMUNITY SUX THEREFORE THE GAME SUX and that logic is horrrrribly backwards. I never started the game good, I never started the game knowing all the prices in heart, I didn't know in 5v5 you start with 715 gold if you pick a hero and don't -random, I never knew Yurnero's Omnislash would rape your face if you were alone. I never had the issues that you were stating.
You want to know why? Because I don't bother memorizing all 90+ heroes. Why the fuck would I do that? I'll stick to heroes I like to play. I'll stick to heroes I have a natural aptitude to using. At most, I'll practice within a pool of about 5 to 7 heroes. Is that a lot compared to the mountain you're claiming? Not at all! Furthermore, you don't need "memory superpowers" to know that Doom will rape your face and stop you from casting spells or using items. You don't need "memory superpowers" to know that when Terrorblade becomes a big goddamn demon his attacks become ranged. There are many key things to know in the game that don't require obscene memorization at all. While it does require some of that so called memory superpower to know that Akasha's Blink's range is 1200 and if you click on an area further than 1200 you only travel about 900 distance instead of 1200, or that Slardar's Slithereen Crush is actually 175 Physical damage and therefore gets amplified by his ultimate Amplify Damage skill, and has an area which doesn't Stun, but actually just Slows...
I think, what shadowbringer and I are trying to say is, you're refusing to acknowledge the fact that memorization is NOT the only factor in being good in this game. You're being just as stubborn as you claim we are if you refuse to acknowledge that you don't need to memorize everything in the goddamn game ever to be good. I know an extremely skilled player who doesn't memorize a lot of things at all =w=
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Dota to begin with didn't have 90+ heroes, it had fewer. Then as it gained popularity, more and more came out. I understand that it's not a design problem that the community sucks. But the fact is each time more gets added, THAT problem gets exacerbated. What's funny is there is easymode or whatever. I forget. That thing that increases the experience you get, and I think it increases gold somehow too, I forget. It's like the designer acknowledges that the game is rough on new people, but that isn't the solution (that itself makes it worse actually since an early death makes the guy fall like 2-4 levels behind really fast, and it just goes downhill from there FAST).
I never said that memorization was all you needed, I'm simply saying it's a huge first step. When I was first playing this game, and I don't mean 1 or 2 games, I mean 10-30. I was no match against people I know who are pretty bad gamers in comparison, but were dota fans because of this issue. I understand you can stick with a select few heroes you know, but as I said the problem isn't learning how to use each hero quite as much as how to play against the other heroes (or work with your teammate's heroes). You don't need memory superpowers to remember each fact about a hero, but you DO need them if you you expect to learn and remember them all after 1 or 2 times of falling prey to it. With 90+ heroes, it's easy to do the math.
I'm sorry but you have to understand that people in general do not have the patience to spend that much time simply learning how to play something to the fullest. That's why TV commercials are so short. People know that you generally want to get someone's attention in less than a minute or whatever. Videogames are obviously different, people are a bit more patient with them, but it generally is a very bad idea to make a game have a learning curve greater than 1 hour. Dota is wildly popular despite this (probably because of the simpler starting roots I guess), so it's not really in a position to change now but this is a simple fact of why many people who aren't already into the game don't like it. You can try and call me a hypocrite all you want, but the fact is this is a valid reason why people complain about it or consider it bad.
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Demigod has a total of 8 heroes ATM. It makes you wonder why I play that instead.
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People not having the patience to want to play a shitton of games is something I can get down with, I never ignored that, it's just your points didn't make that exactly clear, all I gathered was that "LOL YOU MUST MEMORIZE TO SUCCEED" which really isn't everything. And when you mention that the issue of the fanbase getting worse as the game itself develops is more accentuated, I really cannot argue that it does get worse, but it's absolutely no reason to call out on the game except "Damn, everyone who plays that game is a goddamn asshole why should I play it" instead of "That game is horrid because of so-and-so." Also, you don't seem to acknowledge that DotA never started out with a learning curve that crazy. It only became hard because the metagame developed and forced players to practice and become good as there are superior players and such.
I am also very relieved that despite my massive fanboying over DotA no one has called me some sort of elitist faggot asshole.
Demigod has a total of 8 heroes ATM. It makes you wonder why I play that instead.
I actually did play Demigod for a while, I thought it was really good but I stopped because the same 8 heroes all the time gets really boring for me really fast. :<
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I am also very relieved that despite my massive fanboying over DotA no one has called me some sort of elitist faggot asshole.
This is a touhou forum, so we'd have to be highly hypocritical for that, wouldn't we? BV
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Deep inside everyone, DotA is a good game! There's a reason why its probably the most popular game in my country at the moment.
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It spawned that goddamn Basshunter song that everyone at my school overplays :(
I actually have never played DotA but I also have never had any interest in playing it. But if people want to play, let them play, it's just a game.
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>> I'm sorry but you have to understand that people in general do not have the patience to spend that much time simply learning how to play something to the fullest.
I'm really far from knowing how to play DotA to its fullest, and that doesn't prevent me from having fun learning and exercising my virtues (and trying to work around my deficiencies.. memory not being an issue, thankfully). Anyways, it's normal that someone who has more knowledge and developed skill in a game (and have compatible virtues) will have an advantage over those who're lacking in them. This example you gave, about learning how to deal with the other heroes and how to do teamwork could apply to other games as well (the former, mostly; the latter.. not as much), such as fighting games.
Perhaps where we're seeing potential (I mean, the fun in seeing possibilities in the game/map), you're seeing a huge, unenjoyable barrier to entry. I would recommend (again, for this reason -- the barrier to entry feeling) that you don't try to learn too much at a time.. (you could read this (http://zenosip.blogspot.com/2009/05/brick-wall.html) article) ..and try to enjoy the ride, rather than focusing only in getting to the point where you can play the game "fully" (which is a relative notion, anyways. There's a long, endless road, and you're supposed to be enjoying it, rather than trying to pretend it didn't existed like the bullies do :p)
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Perhaps where we're seeing potential (I mean, the fun in seeing possibilities in the game/map), you're seeing a huge, unenjoyable barrier to entry. I would recommend (again, for this reason -- the barrier to entry feeling) that you don't try to learn too much at a time.. (you could read this (http://zenosip.blogspot.com/2009/05/brick-wall.html) article) ..and try to enjoy the ride, rather than focusing only in getting to the point where you can play the game "fully" (which is a relative notion, anyways. There's a long, endless road, and you're supposed to be enjoying it, rather than trying to pretend it didn't existed like the bullies do :p)
I'm not saying that's why *I* personally dislike dota. This entire thread is asking why people hate DoTA, I did give my own personal reasons (largest being RTS games involving use of playing a single hero being just not being the kind of game I like). But I'm talking about this learning curve business because it was brought up to begin with on the first post, and I wanted to communicate that that learning curve is actually a VERY valid reason to not like the game in the eyes of most people. Most people don't like learning games, you are playing some card game with 5 guys, and some new guy wants to play, he wants to learn it in 1 game or 2. DoTA simply is not that kind of game.
I personally love complicated games (dota I wouldn't call complicated though, just a large selection of heroes with abilities, and a large shop).
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But I'm talking about this learning curve business because it was brought up to begin with on the first post, and I wanted to communicate that that learning curve is actually a VERY valid reason to not like the game in the eyes of most people.
:derp:
I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T A VALID REASON THOUGH
:derp:
i could fix that for you if you like
no
(i asked for that anyway(
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I like playing DOTA with friends casually just to kill time and laugh at each other. It's a great multiplayer game but yeah, I sucked very badly when I was starting out. It takes a bit to get past the learning curve but it's nothing insurmountable and there are places to go to read up on the game to learn the ropes yeah?
As far as the whole 'assholes' thing goes...that is why I rarely play with random strangers. Even when I do, I make sure I stay quiet and just play the game.
Friendly 6 vs 6 matches are a great way to pass the afternoon if you don't have anything else to do.