Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Demonbman on June 21, 2010, 10:15:43 PM
-
One thing important to playing Touhou and other shumps is learning and practising Dodging Techniques. My current project right now is making a Dodging Dojo in danmakufu. This dojo is going to be packed with scripts that help increase your dodging abilities. So, in order for this to work, I need the techniques that you, the player, need to work on most. Such as Streaming, Micro-tapping, etc. etc.
-
If you want to succeed, you need to know how to move around spastically, the RIGHT way. Think you can come up with scripts to teach artistic spazzing?
-
Spastically? You mean just hitting the key out of spite? If I try enough I should get somethings to work.
EDIT: Could you give some examples from the Touhou Series of attacks you would need this skill?
-
UFO requires it a lot. :3
And no, I mean making spastic movements that while they look like you're hitting random directions you're making orderly movements. Kind of like the shmup equivalent of drunken boxing. A good example would be Flying Fantastica/Legendary Flying Saucer
-
OOOOOOOOOOOOh, that kind of dodging. Well, I'll see what I can do.
-
So it's something like YGS2000? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUgn5FRptNY)
-
So it's something like YGS2000? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUgn5FRptNY)
In a sense, but not quite. This dojo will be more personal that that, such as giving you tips and such, rather than raw dodging.
-
UFO requires it a lot. :3
And no, I mean making spastic movements that while they look like you're hitting random directions you're making orderly movements. Kind of like the shmup equivalent of drunken boxing. A good example would be Flying Fantastica/Legendary Flying Saucer
Easiest script I can think of requiring moving around spastically or something is:
spawn lots of round bullet of arbitrary speed and direction from random locations.
That is, assuming I understand what donut means.
Also try to recreate something like BoWaP, BoLaD, or VoWG I guess... randomized so you have to read quick
-
HOMING BULLETS. *dies*
I usually have trouble with ambiguous hitboxes- e.g. the large bubbles that won't hurt you until you touch the colored center.
And if you could throw in some curving bullet streams/lasers, I'd love you forever.
Try to stay away from static patterns- memorization won't help raw dodging skill much.
-
Microtapping is my weakest area, mostly because this stick I'm using is completely worthless. How many times has it been when I try to tap to the right and end up going 10 pixels too far (into a bullet)? Way too many. :V
-
Do some manic dodging stages. Not a skill Touhou players use often, but helps with reflexes when working to cap VoWG.
I also suggest some "walling" type attacks like Kaguya's first nonspell. Players complain about walls alot, when few actually exist. Like in Sanae's first nonspell, it's kind of hard to avoid getting hit by a blue wall of bullets, but there are gaps, and a level centered around squeezing through gaps/avoiding them entirely might be a good idea.
Streaming through a pattern is also a nice skill to work on. Might try EX-Keine as a staring point.
-
Do some manic dodging stages. Not a skill Touhou players use often, but helps with reflexes when working to cap VoWG.
I also suggest some "walling" type attacks like Kaguya's first nonspell. Players complain about walls alot, when few actually exist. Like in Sanae's first nonspell, it's kind of hard to avoid getting hit by a blue wall of bullets, but there are gaps, and a level centered around squeezing through gaps/avoiding them entirely might be a good idea.
Streaming through a pattern is also a nice skill to work on. Might try EX-Keine as a staring point.
I'm one of those people you just mentioned. Sanae throws walls I tells ya! So yes, something with that kind of dodging would be good.
I'd also recommend something like Lunasa's attacks, claustrophobic with a very small/limited dodging space.
-
How about making some really dense patterns that force you to master the hitboxes?
Do some manic dodging stages. Not a skill Touhou players use often, but helps with reflexes when working to cap VoWG.
Yes that might be helpful. Touhou needs some more of those anyway.
-
Shotgunning - Or alternatively, taking a pattern from close to the boss. ReimuC in MoF is a pretty decent character, but people are afraid to get close to bosses so they don't take advantage of loldamage. Off the top of my head, I think it would be nice to handle stuff like the midboss card, Autumn Sky (squeeze through gaps fast before they close), and stuff like Storm Day and Unnatural Phenomena from SA, where most of the difficulty is circumvented by staying close and moving precisely.
-
I don't know if it'd help much... most of my ability to tackle most difficult attacks and stages comes more with practice, memorization and understanding what exactly to do in them than any sort of raw dodging skill. Sightread is about 10% of what makes a successful run for me.
-
U streaming
wait you don't need that in toohoo
-
Learn Japanese
Play Moedan
:3
-
Learn Japanese
Play Moedan
:3
What?
-
What?
Moedan is a game that teaches you danmaku skills (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Moedan). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IS2O7MUJtQ)
-
Learn Japanese
Play Moedan
:3
Moedan's Double QED timeout phase is brutal.
*pokes around Moedan some more
-
U streaming
wait you don't need that in toohoo
Says who? Try and beat the post-Momizi spam without U-streaming.
-
Says who? Try and beat the post-Momizi spam without U-streaming.
There is no space to U-stream :V
-
I've found Touhou's very own PoFV to be an excellent venue for training your dodging skills. If you can dodge danmaku free-style you can dodge anything else as well. :)
-
There is no space to U-stream :V
The same basic principle applies. It's merely in a smaller arc.
-
U streaming
wait you don't need that in toohoo
SoEW :V
-
The same basic principle applies. It's merely in a smaller arc.
post a video or something
-
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9280
Here, go nuts.
-
Says who? Try and beat the post-Momizi spam without U-streaming.
Couple of days ago i managed to misredirect the bullets by reversing the stream by dashing.
-
Dodging is a myth, memorize everything
-
Dodging is a myth, memorize everything
Some of us do need help, and there are some skills that it would be helpful to address. I get that you're joking, but memorizing is not always a viable option. Plus, doesn't it feel cooler to dodge on the fly?
Keep working on it, Bman. I'm getting Danmakufu just for this.
-
Oh, survival cards too. While doing timeouts for cards, I find that dodging the patterns for longer periods of time than you're typically intended to help you learn the patterns better, and also help improve how you deal with long, high-pressure situations.
-
Could you guys give examples of the attacks that use these skills? Like which attacks on what game and what diffuculty ? So this way I can examine them and make the patterns needed
-
Claustrophobia!
All of Lunasa's spells and nonspells. I play on Normal but I believe she works generally the same way on any other difficulty.
Eirin's Galaxy in a Pot.
Most of Mystia's night-blindness spellcards.
Those are the only ones that I can think of off the top of my head at the moment. The basic idea is that these limit your dodging area or just generally surround you with dense amounts of bullets. Grinding some practice on these types of attacks could help reading skills immensely.
-
touhou-related:
- herding (luring) bullets to create space for you to escape when/if necessary (space is necessary for games such as Twinklestar Sprites, bosses are helpful for taking space from the opponent)
- foreseeing which areas are going to be filled by bullets (useful against Kaguya's/Nitori's/Yugi's lasers, or Sariel's grenades.. or against some patterned wall of bullets in IN's Extra Stage)
- ability to dodge random bullets (which involve seeing which areas have less bullets than others; useful in PoFV, can be coupled with foresight against Aya, for example)
- ability to be able to watch for far away attacks (fast attacks require that you are aware of them, kinda rewarding anticipation over reaction)
- ability to maneuver through slow but dense masses of bullets (this involves coordination and to a certain extent, ability to keep yourself under control; the feeling of blaming random attacks can be reduced if you use patterned attacks instead)
- ability of using fairies to clear bullets while maintaining your chain meter (in PoFV, this means not killing fairies as soon as you see them, and not spamming shots, and foreseeing placement of masses of bullets and fairies and your potential future routes). It's not really hard to feel the timing of your chain in PoFV; if you can manage it well enough, you'll have enough free time after a fairy formation is finished
- bullet-cancelling (timed boss takedowns -- there's bullet-cancelling through bombs, though this means memorization, I don't like it..)
- decision of when to attack or not, or which enemies to attack (familiar masters in IN, bullet-cancelling fairies in EoSD's 4th stage, Orin's zombie fairies, suicide-bullet spawning orbs in SA's 5th stage)
- ability to graze through streams (no point-blanking or hugging bosses, please! It's restrictive and frustrating, and not rewarding -- being successfull at point-blank grazing feels like a minimum requirement for scoring well, and frustrating, restart-worthy if you fail it)
- survival spellcards, and/or milking nonspells (either by grazing or shooting familiars during them, bullet-cancelling, etc..)
- ability to deal with aimed and patterned shots
- ability to deal with shots coming from varied directions
- ability to deal with shots of varying speeds
- ability to avoid getting walled by certain patterns
- ability to deal with some patterns which demand better reaction (Mima's final spellcard in Phantasm Romance 2.5 Plus' Another Mode)
- ability to deal with distraction-based attacks (Yuka's final spellcard in Phantasm Romance 2.5 Plus' Another Mode's 2nd stage)
- ability to dodge through thinner gaps by your side, when there's larger gaps available (which may be sometimes not be the best option, if the enemy uses aimed attacks which block that option, for example; Garra's final pattern in ESP Ra.De is an example)
there are more which I can remember, though not really useful in Touhou..
-
What about dodging patterns while having to stay under a boss at low power?
I mean, with SA's cruel bomb system and UFO's -.93 per death, dealing with a boss at 1 or even 0 power might be necessary.
-
What about dodging patterns while having to stay under a boss at low power?
I mean, with SA's cruel bomb system and UFO's -.93 per death, dealing with a boss at 1 or even 0 power might be necessary.
:objection!:
Well the power on the games is balanced so you don't really need 5 hours to take out a nonspell at zero power.
The only difference in powerlevels is a slight power increase eg 200 dps to 230 dps
Ordered by Power (forward shots only, not close)
12.0/18.0 Yukari F
12.5/18.0 Alice UF Far (*4)
15.0/22.0 Nitori F
15.0/23.0 Alice F Far (*5)
16.0/24.0 Nitori UF (*17)
17.0/25.0 Patch Fire
17.0/25.0 Suika UF (*1)
17.5/23.0/(26.0) Aya F Far
17.5/25.5 Suika F
18.0/26.0 Patch Water Med (*6)
19.0/28.0 Yukari UF
21.0/32.0 Patch Wood Diag only (*7)
23.5/34.0 Any char, 0 power (*18)
Look at how the difference between the weakest and strongest is only about 10s which is not really that much suffering unless you're playing lunatic :V
Take a look at the shot/bomb analysis thread.
UFO also has a similar balance.
:V
Oh boy, i'm totaly gonna get flamed