Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: DracoOmega on March 29, 2010, 04:27:45 PM
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I'm getting tired of being totally abysmal at deathbombing. Frequently, it's not even that I don't just hit the button fast enough, but half the time I don't even attempt to hit it at all. It's like I just stare dumbstruck as I die, and only realize several seconds later that I should have tried to bomb. So, dying with full bombs in stock is quite common. In fact, at lot of recent PCB lunatic 1cc attempts have ended with something like 10 misses, 11 bombs, and I'm using Sakuya, who has 4 bombs per life. So that's more than 30 unused bombs. If I manage to use half of my bombs in a run, I'm actually doing quite a bit better than usual.
I was wondering if anyone had any tips on how I could try to improve my reflexes at this? I've 1cc'd every windows game on hard, and can repeat many of them fairly consistently. I feel like my ability at this is disproportionately bad compared to my overall Touhou skills.
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Deathbombing is not the reason you use your bombs. Deathbombing is the game's way of telling you "you screwed up, I'll give you a last chance to redeem yourself from being an utter failure". You bomb in advance when you're stressed (in which case you might deathbomb anyways!), not when you realize you died. You'd think a Lunatic player would figure this out :/
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Not to mention a Lunatic player definitely has the required reflexes to bomb in time very often.
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You can't just react to the sound the game makes when you get hit. The timing window is usually too short. For me, what really makes deathbombing possible is being able to recognize when a bullet is without a doubt going to hit me, before it hits me (essentially looking within a small space around my hitbox for any bullets that come too close). This of course depends on trajectories and speeds, and varies from one attack to another, so being familiar with the bullet patterns will make it easier to recognize when death is unavoidable.
When you say you don't even attempt to hit the bomb button, I get the impression that you're hesitant to bomb in general. This isn't like going for a perfect run or anything. In a 1cc attempt, if you feel even the slightest bit uncomfortable in your positioning, bomb. Doesn't matter if it's a regular bomb or deathbomb, it's better to lose that one bomb than to lose a life AND whatever bombs you had left. Obviously, bombing every attack will get you nowhere, but you get the idea.
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Deathbombing? What's that? :V
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In all seriousness, try arcade shmups for a while. In those, you have bombs, and you have deaths. If you get hit, you are dead, no questions asked, so it's pretty much 'build up good bombing habits or die horribly'. :V Alternatively, go try something like no-death clearing Extra stages, where you have to keep your guard up over a long time period and use your bombs wisely. Generally you're going to want to use someone other than Reimu for this, since she has a more lenient deathbomb timer and smaller hitbox in some games - i.e. crutches you're sometimes going to have to do without.
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Watching around your character and not playing IN are the best solutions.
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Play as Reimu.
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Obviously, bombing every attack will get you nowhere, but you get the idea.
sure
use bombs wisely
sure
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One thing I do when I know I'm about to die/bomb for score is to ram the nearest bullet and bomb the instant I get hit. It's a habit I picked up from scorerunning MoF, since deathbombing keeps you from losing Faith. It helps you learn to realize when you need to bomb and helps you learn your deathbomb timing window (ie, how you have basically none).
Alternatively, play a SHMUP that doesn't have deathbombing. You'll learn the hard way when to bomb.
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BARREL ROLL
:V
srs post : do you have V-sync? that'll make your job easier.
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Being a rather new but still average-to-terribad player (depending on my mood, the time of the day, the weather, the number of times I had to ragequit and restart due to stupid deaths in the first three stages, whether the planets are aligned or not, etc), I have found that the only way I can deathbomb consistently is when I know I'm going to get hit. Otherwise, it's just my face going "WTF JUST KILLED ME" and not hitting the button at all, or hitting it way off the time window.
This, unfortunately, happens to me a lot during the early stages since I know I can pretty much perfect stages 1-3 in every game (bar from SA) consistently if I concentrate enough, which leads me to being lazy and complacent, thus suffering from constant stupid clipdeaths. Otherwise, when I'm reaching the more challenging stages 4-6, my deathbombing skills suddenly skyrocket since I'm expecting to get hit all the time.
Also, if you're playing PCB without the vsync patch, deathbombing was nigh impossible, at least for me. Not only PCB became actually playable for me when I tried it, but I realized I could, actually, deathbomb in that game (PCB was the second game I played, after IN whose deathbomb windows is obvious enough).
PS: also, fast patterns are noticeably easier to deathbomb than slow patterns. Slow patterns usually mean clipdeath for me if I screw up since OMG THIS IS EASY I CAN DO IT
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Deathbombing can be quite important. Reasons to deathbomb: EoSD Rank reset. MoF scoring.
Okay fine that's not a very large list, but good enough, the first one is quite important, actually.
The problem about deathbombing on reaction is you are reacting to something that shouldn't happen. Unless you are sitting there thinking "I am about to die" you are going to pretty much be doing it all on reaction, and it's hard. If you're trying to dodge, you don't expect to be hit, and when you do, lol. Always be attentive, when you see a dodge you can't make, and you are sure about this, it can actually be better to bodyslam the bullet, and then deathbomb. This is only in EoSD though. Maybe PCB too, but don't EVER deathbomb in IN, it's quite a terrible thing.
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Actually, during particular times I have known to be dangerous I automatically expect being hit. So that's a good suggestion, find places where you die often, it's easier to see what hit you and respond when you expect it.
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You'd think a Lunatic player would figure this out :/
Not to mention a Lunatic player definitely has the required reflexes to bomb in time very often.
Hey, don't give me too much credit. Just because I'm playing on lunatic doesn't mean I'm lunatic player material, yet. But I'm working on it.
srs post : do you have V-sync? that'll make your job easier.
Yes. The old games are downright unpleasant to play on my computer without it.
Play as Reimu.
Interestingly, that doesn't help as much as you might think. I actually played a bunch with her in PCB a couple days ago, for variety's sake, and was amazed at how visibly longer it took to die from the point of being hit. I even said 'it should be easy to hit THAT window'. And yet, I didn't seem any better at it, over the course of a whole playthrough. In fact, the larger window made my lack of hitting the bomb button even more obvious, and was part of the motivation to figure out how to train myself to at least ATTEMPT to deathbomb consistently.
When you say you don't even attempt to hit the bomb button, I get the impression that you're hesitant to bomb in general.
I think you're right, in that this may be part of the problem. Well, you're definitely right that I'm hesitant to bomb in general. To me, the point is to do everything without bombs, if you can, and use them only as a last resort. So I will very rarely premeditatively bomb anything unless I'm nearly certain I'm about to die. Even on things that nearly always kill me. As long as I think that there's a chance that I can make it, I try to. Frankly, I think I'd be happiest if I could manage to never bomb at all except for deathbombing, although there are a small handful of places that I will do so most of the time (such as those walling fairies in MoF stage 4, for example)
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I have the same problem. I die with multiple bombs in stock on a regular basis *EXCEPT* EoSD (which ironicly has the least forgiving deathbomb timer I believe),which I frequently deahtbomb successfully.
Thing is as someone said, just bomb when you're feeling uncertain...That's what you should do once you are proficient. Of course this is amazingly stupid when you're new and you really aren't able to reliably capture most spellcards still (the fact that you say you play sakuya suggests that you're not at a level of play for that mentality yet).
Anyway I've played EoSD at one time more than any other Touhou, I made sure I could one cc it on lunatic before I attempted any others on hard, now I kinda take turns between hards, lunatics, and fan games for the entire series, so everything is still hard to remember. And if I don't remember it, I don't feel comfortable with it. So I'm forced to bomb when I hear my death pretty much (or when I see a giant wall approaching that I know I cannot dodge).
One thing I KNOW will help is use stage practice mode. Stop trying to 1cc the entire game over and over. Stage practice each and every stage over and over 1 at a time until you memorize them. Then you get a feel for which cards you should expect to have to blow a bomb on, and which ones you know you should just go "ARGH I FUCKING SUCK" and restart if you die on. Make sure the amount of bombs you "budget" in the sum of every stage is a good 6 (more is better) less than what you'd need for the whole game.. Generally on first 1cc's, you need to bomb more than you should because you get all hyped up and unable to control your shaking hands and whatnot >=P.
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Basically what everyone else said- DON'T deathbomb. Deathbombs should be accidental.
Unless you're playing IN, at least. I purposefully deathbomb several of the tougher cards there, it's pretty easy to do reflexively. :V
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Whether you should deathbomb or not depends on what you are doing. If you're playing for score you need to weigh the consequences that deathbombing has on your score, versus dying or versus any score-related bonuses you get from death/bombing in a given situation.
If you are playing for survival, then you should never deathbomb, unless you truly have an accidental collision and are quick enough to react in time. Deathbombing persuades you into holding out until the very last moment, until your survival is dependent on your reflexes alone. When it comes down to this, it's highly likely that you'll just mistime it and die. When you find yourself in a situation where you just know you are fucked, bomb. Holding out until the very last moment is risky because chances are that 1) you won't survived on dumb luck alone; 2) the opening you're waiting for won't appear; and 3) if that opening does appear, you won't be able to navigate to it because you lack time or finesse.
Why risk deathbombing when normal bombing has no impact on your run? In fact, you only jeopardize your run because you lose any bombs you have in stock when you die: bombs can be used like extends. I can't count how many times I've blown it at the final boss because I was stingy with my bombs earlier in the run.
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I was wondering if anyone had any tips on how I could try to improve my reflexes at this?
deathbombing != reflexes
Just bomb when you're not sure what you're doing anymore. If you are getting hit when you think you know what you're doing, stop thinking you know what you're doing when you aren't :V
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I have the same problem. I die with multiple bombs in stock on a regular basis *EXCEPT* EoSD (which ironicly has the least forgiving deathbomb timer I believe),which I frequently deahtbomb successfully.
Thing is as someone said, just bomb when you're feeling uncertain...That's what you should do once you are proficient. Of course this is amazingly stupid when you're new and you really aren't able to reliably capture most spellcards still (the fact that you say you play sakuya suggests that you're not at a level of play for that mentality yet).
Out of honest curiosity, how does playing Sakuya suggest something about my proficiency? (I'm not claiming that I am sufficiently proficient, mind you). I gravitated towards playing her (SakuyaA) initially after finding that I generally did better with her than other shot types.
Generally on first 1cc's, you need to bomb more than you should because you get all hyped up and unable to control your shaking hands and whatnot >=P.
Incidentally, I'm not sure I've found this to be the case. Well, I'll certainly admit to the whole pounding heart thing, when I've managed to get thaaaat close to pulling something off, but I've often performed better than I would if I was more relaxed and what I was doing didn't 'matter'. (As in, I frequently do worse on stage practice than when doing the same stage in a normal run)
When you find yourself in a situation where you just know you are fucked, bomb.
Well, I suppose some of the problem is that most of my deaths surprise me. Sure, I may realize that the section I'm doing is quite challenging to me, but I didn't think I was in a worse position at that very moment than any other time during the same attack. If I see something incoming that I'm pretty sure is beyond my ability to dodge, I do bomb. Unfortunately, I die plenty of other times, when I thought I was ok until I the moment I wasn't, just the same ^^;
Just bomb when you're not sure what you're doing anymore. If you are getting hit when you think you know what you're doing, stop thinking you know what you're doing when you aren't :V
Haha. Perhaps there's a very long list of things that I may not actually know what I'm doing, after all ^^;
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Out of honest curiosity, how does playing Sakuya suggest something about my proficiency? (I'm not claiming that I am sufficiently proficient, mind you). I gravitated towards playing her (SakuyaA) initially after finding that I generally did better with her than other shot types.
She's the best when it comes to raw survival, but one of the worst when it comes to 'high-level' play, that is stuff like capturing cards and scoring. Most players eventually switch to one of the forward types since they can out-perform her with some extra practice.
Well, I suppose some of the problem is that most of my deaths surprise me. Sure, I may realize that the section I'm doing is quite challenging to me, but I didn't think I was in a worse position at that very moment than any other time during the same attack. If I see something incoming that I'm pretty sure is beyond my ability to dodge, I do bomb. Unfortunately, I die plenty of other times, when I thought I was ok until I the moment I wasn't, just the same ^^;
Just curious, but are you planning out all of your bombs beforehand? I've found that in order to make the best use of bombs, you should decide when to use them before you even begin your run. Think to yourself, 'what attacks/patterns tend to kill me more than half the times I face them?' and ALWAYS use a bomb on it, no questions asked. It might sound too obvious, but your chances of using a bomb correctly are far greater if you actually know for certain that you're going to bomb an attack before you actually face it.
Of course, dumb clipdeaths will still happen, and always will, but going in with a solid gameplan will always help you, no matter what kind of silly mistakes you make along the way.
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deathbombing != reflexes
Just bomb when you're not sure what you're doing anymore. If you are getting hit when you think you know what you're doing, stop thinking you know what you're doing when you aren't :V
I think I know what you mean lol, when all of your carefully planned bullet tracking goes out the window and all you can see now is a wall of bullets with too little time to make an informed decision. Sometimes ill just try and go with it anyway. suprisingly, sometimes I get away with it. like that horrible spell the prismrivers do with the blue bits and the red notes, I just cant track that for some reason and just end up legging it from one location to the other in bouts of confusion :V Guess sometimes If you dont try and push through oh shit oh shit i dunno whats going on bomb out thing then you wont know, but If you do find out you cant, you just damaged your chances of a 1cc / completion :V tough choices!
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She's the best when it comes to raw survival, but one of the worst when it comes to 'high-level' play, that is stuff like capturing cards and scoring. Most players eventually switch to one of the forward types since they can out-perform her with some extra practice.
Lies. (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=2071)
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Lies. (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=2071)
The problem isn't SakuyaB.
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She's the best when it comes to raw survival, but one of the worst when it comes to 'high-level' play, that is stuff like capturing cards and scoring. Most players eventually switch to one of the forward types since they can out-perform her with some extra practice.
SakuyaA, yeah, but SakuyaB far and away the best for the "high-level" play that you're talking about.
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SakuyaA, yeah, but SakuyaB far and away the best for the "high-level" play that you're talking about.
SakuyaB is still a poor choice for "I'm still trying to 1cc lunatic for my first time" thing though....It's more of a "I no-bomb 1cc'd lunatic blindfolded" character >=P
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SakuyaA, yeah, but SakuyaB far and away the best for the "high-level" play that you're talking about.
Oh trust me, I know. :P Notice, he/she was referring specifically to using SakuyaA in their post.
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http://www.fetchfido.co.uk/games/reaction/reaction_test.htm
:V
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She's the best when it comes to raw survival, but one of the worst when it comes to 'high-level' play, that is stuff like capturing cards and scoring. Most players eventually switch to one of the forward types since they can out-perform her with some extra practice.
How can something be better at survival and yet worse at capturing? (Unless you're just talking about bombs, I guess). Personally, I find that being able to do full damage to the boss from almost any position allows you to end cards that involve a lot of movement quicker than a forward-focus type can, and it frees me up from worrying about saying beneath the boss, which gives you more dodging options, and one less distraction. I suppose that this wouldn't necessarily be an issue for a better player.
Just curious, but are you planning out all of your bombs beforehand? I've found that in order to make the best use of bombs, you should decide when to use them before you even begin your run. Think to yourself, 'what attacks/patterns tend to kill me more than half the times I face them?' and ALWAYS use a bomb on it, no questions asked. It might sound too obvious, but your chances of using a bomb correctly are far greater if you actually know for certain that you're going to bomb an attack before you actually face it.
I think my planning has always generally involved NOT bombing. Sure, I'm aware of which spots frequently kill me (some of them significantly more than half the time), but I don't think I've ever said "I'm going to bomb this attack, when it happens.". Well, actually, a couple of times I did say that, and ended up not bombing, anyway... and dying, of course. >.>
This thread has been thought provoking, though. I think I'd thought that after you reached a certain level of skill, you ideally never bombed unless it was a deathbomb (possibly barring IN, of course), since I assumed that most of the better players could do this nearly on command.
But the more I thought about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that my aversion to bombing in general is at least partially the cause, here. If bombing is something you really don't want to do, most of the time, then it's probably hard for it to also be an instinctual reaction. Of course, I could try to work towards bombing whenever I feel especially pressed, but I might be forced to admit that I'm even worse than I thought I was. ^^;
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http://www.fetchfido.co.uk/games/reaction/reaction_test.htm
:V
Hmmm... I get from 0.22 to 0.25. How long is the actual deathbomb window? ^^;
Although hitting it when you're waiting for it to happen isn't really the issue. It's doing so while your attention is intensely focused on something else.
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The deathbomb window is usually within 0.1~0.3 seconds of getting hit, IIRC.
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http://www.fetchfido.co.uk/games/reaction/reaction_test.htm
The deathbomb window is usually within 0.1~0.3 seconds of getting hit, IIRC.
lmao my reaction time is 0.316
:colonveeplusalpha:
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The deathbomb window is usually within 0.1~0.3 seconds of getting hit, IIRC.
Hmmm... I get from 0.22 to 0.25. How long is the actual deathbomb window? ^^;
.1-.133 for EoSD, .133-.15 for the rest, save for SoEW. There's also a little bit more if you're using PCB!Reimu, IN!Border and LLS / MS (though the last ones [LLS / MS] are only really minor differences).
Oh, and I have a reflex of .14 on average.
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How can you check your reflexes? I wanna know mine.
Also, what everyone says. You can't react on sound alone, you have to know in advance you're going to die. What you CAN semi-consistently deathbomb with is the knowledge that a bullet has hit you, rather than listening for a sound.
NVM, found a reflex tester myself. on this test at least, my reflexes average around 0.2
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How can you check your reflexes? I wanna know mine.
Also, what everyone says. You can't react on sound alone, you have to know in advance you're going to die. What you CAN semi-consistently deathbomb with is the knowledge that a bullet has hit you, rather than listening for a sound.
NVM, found a reflex tester myself. on this test at least, my reflexes average around 0.2
http://getyourwebsitehere.com/jswb/rttest01.html
Right here.
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SakuyaB is still a poor choice for "I'm still trying to 1cc lunatic for my first time" thing though....It's more of a "I no-bomb 1cc'd lunatic blindfolded" character >=P
Grraaaaah I hate it when people say that SakuyaB isn't usable unless you're going for score or challenge or some crap. I can use SakuyaB better than I can MarisaA, and nearly matches ReimuB. Rapes stages thoroughly mainly because of her powerful and free-angled shot, but also since her bombs have even more invincibility time than Master Spark (although they do shit for damage). I wouldn't recommend her to people, no, but it doesn't mean she's difficult to use.
i would like to say however that merlin's opener is absolute bullshit with b
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I got 0.171 on my mouse, and 0.22 on my keyboard (with both hands), perhaps using an old 1980s keyboard is a bad idea for shmups, seriously, I wonder if I can improve my Touhou skills by a simple new keyboard...I like this board though >=(
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0.277
lol I'm an embarrassment to all lunatic players.
2 AM is probably not the best time to do this.
However, this is not a bad thing. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/86742-Beware-Gamers-Fast-Reflexes-Means-Short-Sex) :V
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Deathbombs are essentially pointless, because panic bombing itself will become pointless.
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Did the reflex test out of curiosity/boredom, got 0.195.
Not that something like this is useful, of course. The fact that I'm actively paying attention for something to happen will skew the results, plus that deathbombing in Touhou requires prior knowledge that a bullet is going to hit me (thus somewhat widening the window for me to react).
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Grraaaaah I hate it when people say that SakuyaB isn't usable unless you're going for score or challenge or some crap. I can use SakuyaB better than I can MarisaA, and nearly matches ReimuB. Rapes stages thoroughly mainly because of her powerful and free-angled shot, but also since her bombs have even more invincibility time than Master Spark (although they do shit for damage). I wouldn't recommend her to people, no, but it doesn't mean she's difficult to use.
i would like to say however that merlin's opener is absolute bullshit with b
I'm using SakuyaB on my first tries 1cc'ing PCB. It's a toss up between using her and Reimu, Sakuya is probably better because of the extra speed.
Which attack do you refer to as opener, the very first non spellcard of the bossfight? If so I absolutely agree.
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0.277
lol I'm an embarrassment to all lunatic players.
2 AM is probably not the best time to do this.
However, this is not a bad thing. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/86742-Beware-Gamers-Fast-Reflexes-Means-Short-Sex) :V
0.264 but I play easy modo :V
I had to attempt it twice though as I have trigger happy mouse sydrome, and whenever I use a mouse for anything I occasionally just click for no reason, And I did on the test at an absolute coincidence, the exact same moment the dot changed colour.
So for one the first time around I got a reaction time of 0.005 :V or maybe I'm just godlike and don't realise it?
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That reflex test made me realize why deathbombing is never a viable option for me.
Panicbombing is the way to go. :V
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Reflex tests are a really silly way to test your actual reflexes. Like it says at the end, your startle reflex is much faster (faster than even the test suggests), and Touhou is all about the panic reflexes. In a test, where everything is controlled and most of the time you're not putting nearly as much effort into is as you could be (even if you think you are, you're not), your reflexes are much more relaxed and thus slower than what you would use in videogames or something similar.
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Reflex tests are a really silly way to test your actual reflexes. Like it says at the end, your startle reflex is much faster (faster than even the test suggests), and Touhou is all about the panic reflexes. In a test, where everything is controlled and most of the time you're not putting nearly as much effort into is as you could be (even if you think you are, you're not), your reflexes are much more relaxed and thus slower than what you would use in videogames or something similar.
this, but at the same time, there are 2 situations where you deathbomb in Touhou. The first is where you actually meant to bomb before you die, but just so happen to bomb after you die, this is how you SHOULD death bomb most of the time... The other one is when you die, and you try and bomb. The thing with the second one is that due to bullets having hitboxes, and players having hitboxes, and other things. Chances are nobody ever deathbombs after they SEE themselfs get hit, and do it when they hear that "you're hit" noise. Sound-reflexes I believe are slower than visual reflexes.
So while the test might be slower than normal because you're not in high-andrenaline mode, it's also faster because you're looking for a clear-cut digital visual queue with no mistaking.