Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Alfred F. Jones on February 01, 2010, 07:49:06 PM
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I am intrigued by the depiction of gods in Touhou.
In Gensokyo, you do not have to look very far to find gods. We have at least three (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Shinki) of (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Kanako_Yasaka) them (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Suwako_Moriya) around, though only the latter two seem to be active these days. However, a question occurred to me this morning while I was writing White Rose. If you will forgive my slight self-promotion:
?[The Kasha] have a lot of strange customs, dear sister,? Satori replied, opening another book. ?First there's the language thing, then they tame minor spirits, mostly zombie fairies, and use them as familiars. They only eat certain kinds of food, and they have some really bizarre religious customs, like monotheism... pretty esoteric stuff.?
Emphasis mine, for the sake of clarity.
When I first began writing this fic, I had been learning too much about the American labor movement, to the point that the Kasha race in White Rose (Orin and the like) are barely-concealed expys of Ashkenazi Jews. As such, they're monotheists. It only recently occurred to me, while watching Battlestar Galactica with my family (if you don't know this: the bad guys/Cylons are monotheists, the good guys/humans are polytheists), that monotheism in Gensokyo would be, for lack of a better phrase, really friggin' weird. In fact, it might be straight-up unjustified, because multiple goddesses exist (Kanako, Suwako, Shinki, Konohana-Sakuya in Mokou's chapter of CiLR). However, this begs the question: is acknowledging the existence of the gods necessarily belief in them? I say no, or else Sanae wouldn't have to work so hard to keep Suwako and Kanako supplied with faith, but I leave it up to discussion.
And to add more scope to this: Gensokyo is a land complete with a shrine maiden who seems to act like a simple punk who just happened to put on the red-whites (UFO, I am looking at you); however, she is anything but an atheist, even though she's capable of beating the gods of the greater Japanese mythological pantheon senseless. Does she believe in them per se? Heck, does Reimu believe in her own Hakurei Shrine deity at all?
I dunno, I just really find the idea of religion in Gensokyo intriguing. I have one question in particular I'd like anyone to answer: is there any potential at all for monotheism in Gensokyo?
Apart from that, I just wanted to start a discussion on something I find interesting. Have at it. Or don't. :S
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You forgot mentioning Shizuha, Minoriko and Hina, by the way.
I think what Satori meant with that the Kasha only believe in one God is that they believe in only one Creator. Sure, there are lots of Gods in Gensokyo, but, with the exception of Shinki, they aren't capable of creating a world. That's the barrier between a normal diety and a true omnipotent God. The Dragon God is apparently the creator of all in the setting of Touhou. This guy obviously stands way higher than the MoF crew, and maybe even higher than Yukari and Shinki (or equal to them). I think I can understand the Kasha. I mean if there are, like, seven youkai (Yukari, Yuuka, Yuyuko, Flandre, Suika, Yuugi and Eirin) and even a couple of mortals (Reimu and Marisa) that can defeat these so called gods, you lose faith in them quickly.
Also, the 'lesser' gods have been created by man's thoughts and faith, and are sustained by them. They werren't around when the world was created. Someone must have done it. Maybe the Kasha just see the the 'lesser' gods as spirits and view their own creator diety as the one true God (may that be the Dragon God, Shinki or somethig entirely different).
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On topic of Reimu's belief, the following comes to my mind:
I'd say she does belive in gods, and especially in the deity of the Hakurei shrine.
Because, what she uses to fight the other gods are tools that are connected to the Hakurei family, which is connected to the Hakurei shrine, which is connected to the Hakurei deity.
So in the end, one may speculate that the Yin-yang-orbs and Reimu's powers as a shrinemaiden are actually granted to her by the deity of her shrine.
And I'd go as far as to say that all of her powers wouldn't work as strong as they do if she didn't believe in her deity.
In fact, her belief might be incredibly strong, despite her never showing any of it, and that's what giver her the power to even beat gods.
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Monotheism arising in Gensokyo would likely create religious wars. Since montheism means there's only one god, that "one god" would declare all the other gods imposters. The believers of the different faiths would take great offense to being called this, and would want to assert their god's position. History pretty much underlines this tendency.
So yeah, I think monotheism would lead to great conflict. Might make an interesting incident though.
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I tend to think of believing and acknowledging as different things. You can be monotheistic and still acknowledge other gods. I think. I may or may not have a couple screws loose in my head.
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You forgot mentioning Shizuha, Minoriko and Hina, by the way.
Hina actually doesn't count, I think. She leads the curse doll army, so she could just be a doll herself, and she is out-right listed on the wiki as not goddess. Its up in the air, but more likely to fall in the not. I just use goddess for her in CDO because it is convenient and overused in MoF, before anyone calls that up.
As far as Theism goes...
Easily, Faith is not believing that a god exists. You can believe a god exists without giving it faith (Or else it wouldn't be a sought for commodity), But it seems to be needed to be given willingly. Therefore, the transfer of faith is probably willingly done via prayer and other methods. This is why Sanae needs to go out to bring faith in (I'd imagine shrines can act as focus points for faith, perhaps even purifiers) and Reimu can collect faith with just the shrine. Faith is probably a secretion or energy that humans and youkai emit.
Does Reimu herself give faith to gods is a good question. Frankly, she has to upkeep the shrine that is holding the entirety of gensokyo together. I don't think she gives much faith, if at all, to other gods. Much like how Sanae probably gives her faith strictly to Kanako and Suwako. What does interest me on Reimu is IF she has a goddess or god to dedicate faith to. The Hakurei Shrine is connected to the barrier, so obviously the barrier takes faith from the shrine. With this in mind, I do believe its possible there IS no Hakurei Shrine god, and Reimu just isn't sure if there is or not (Say what you want on MoF, I'll note its just her wondering what her own damn shrine god is like.). The Hakurei Shrine seems more based on the barrier than an actual god, so if anything, the barrier is probably the 'god' of the shrine. It is fueled by the faith of the Hakurei Shrine, controlled by the Hakurei Shrine, and is based off the Hakurei Shrine.
Obviously, though, Reimu herself believes that other god/goddesses exist, and in fact may encourage belief in some of them. Her shrine just isn't based on one.
As far as Monotheism goes? Possible as all hell. I note that apparently Faith makes a lot of things go around, and people have even brought up Youkai/God similarities like they -matter-. This leads to the possible belief that the two are just the same thing, and gods just get better treatment. So you could believe in one 'true' god that doesn't require things like faith.
You could also take a scientific method to it, and refer to Godesses and Gods as 'Faith-based beings' or 'Faith-based phenomenons'. The claim would be they're things made of faith that happen to have a shitload of power. They require Faith to sustain themselves like food, therefore they are constantly degrading imperfect beings. Thus, not actual 'Gods' if you were to take the 'GOD IS PERFECT' route, but very powerful beings that are called gods for lack of a better term, or belief they are the closest things to gods. They are however, in reality, a naturally occurring phenomenon, nothing more. This could even lead to a field of study on the manner of faith and faith-based beings, but now I'm just rambling.
Ninja: You could just have a dick god claiming all other gods are posers. Religion does tend to exist on complete lack of some senses.
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[...]and she is out-right listed on the wiki as not goddess.
The wiki is more canon than the games...?
I recall she's referred to in-game as a curse goddess who effectively takes curses from others, but I can't remember anything relating to a curse doll army, nor do any of her spellcards involve dolls at all (or at least not on Normal Mode... They mostly refer to bad luck and such). I dunno, there's probably something I'm missing, but I know in-game she's referred to as some kind of goddess (even if just to poke fun at the fact she's not that strong of one like Minoriko).
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A singular, omnipotent Deity is very specifically a creation of Judeo-Christian religion, and a Gensokyan God not being that does not make them inferior or subordinate in any way.
That said, monotheism is impossible in Gensokyo, as no sane human is able to perform the doublethink necessary to outright deny the presence of multiple actual Gods who walk around and partake in shenanigans on their front porch. It goes without saying that such denial is a requirement for monotheism.
As for Reimu... a Youkai is a Youkai is a Youkai. She has her very own special take on the world that is highly irreverent - she denies all authority, and can possibly be described as an extremely militant atheist.
[edit] In the sense that anyone with supernatural power, God or Youkai, whatever they call themselves, they just need a good kicking.
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The wiki is more canon than the games...?
I recall she's referred to in-game as a curse goddess who effectively takes curses from others, but I can't remember anything relating to a curse doll army, nor do any of her spellcards involve dolls at all (or at least not on Normal Mode... They mostly refer to bad luck and such). I dunno, there's probably something I'm missing, but I know in-game she's referred to as some kind of goddess (even if just to poke fun at the fact she's not that strong of one like Minoriko).
When did I say that? I used it as a reason to not think so.
The wiki has faults, I'm sure, but it is mostly good info. :V
Don't take things out of context and expect much.
Also, I swear to god everything on the wiki just changed on me what the crap, but the dolls are mentioned on the wiki. Whatever, It was a side not anyway. Ignore me, Rambling, I guess?
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Hina actually doesn't count, I think. She leads the curse doll army, so she could just be a doll herself, and she is out-right listed on the wiki as not goddess. Its up in the air, but more likely to fall in the not. I just use goddess for her in CDO because it is convenient and overused in MoF, before anyone calls that up.
Ahem, take a look at her wiki profile please.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Hina
Look at the species category. What does it say? What does it say clear as day?
Curse Goddess.
Even her ZUN profile beneath says so. You can't claim that the wiki said she isn't a curse goddess. It stands right there.
My PNP-Theory also tries to explain the Gods as indeed entities based on faith, counter parts to youkai. Sakana, Mew and me also created the theory that Gods are infact ghosts who ascended to godhood because man is in dire need for a god. These gods need faith to keep existing. If they lose faith, they are kicked back into the re?ncarnation cycle.
Shinki on the other hand is pretty much unknown from the world outside Makai, and I don't think getting faith from your own creations counts. She's also the only goddess who can indeed create living beings and worlds. I think Shinki is a different being than the Gods featured in MoF. Either she's a 'Perfect God', an insanely powerful youkai who only took the title of God or Shinki does gain faith, but not from Makai, nor Gensokyo. Where from? The Outside World. Why? What is the greatest evil known to man, which everyone fears, and almost see has a God in and of itself? Satan. Shinki = Satan, and the fear of humans count as her faith. Believers of God believe just as much in the Devil, and this faith goes to Shinki. Perhaps even the faith of beings like Yami and other representations of the devil. And you also ofcourse got Satanist, who actively worship the Devil, only not as an evil entity. And since Christianity, Islam and Judaism are three of the most wide spread religions in the world, Shinki gets loads of power and faith.
And I think the Hakurei Goddess is in fact Yukari. She isn't a true goddess since she's a youkai, not a faith-based being, but her power surpasses those of the Gods, and the Hakurei Barrier, Shrine and maybe even the bloodline are made by her hand. The faith indeed goes to the border, but Yukari is the actual Goddess. Regarding Reimu's power, I think Reimu just summons the strength of well known Shinto Gods, like Amaterasu, Susanoo and Izanagi.
EDIT: And yes, CHAOS, the dolls are still mentioned under fun facts. That part of Hina is still true.
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Ahem, take a look at her wiki profile please.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Hina
Look at the species category. What does it say? What does it say clear as day?
Curse Goddess.
Even her ZUN profile beneath says so. You can't claim that the wiki said she isn't a curse goddess. It stands right there.
EDIT: And yes, CHAOS, the dolls are still mentioned under fun facts. That part of Hina is still true.
'Still?' I don't see why you feel the need to point this out- It is also listed in the Zun Profile.
Also, I already addressed this myself. I can still certainly claim I saw it as otherwise at one point in time, unless you can outright prove it was -never- edited within a determinate amount of time, and it was always stated like that.
I just appear to be wrong now.
On Shinki- If we go by Faith-based theory, Shinki is probably not a god. She creates all of Makai, and holy shit that has to take a lot of faith for a faith-based being. Before she even finished, she'd probably run out of Faith. Even if she did get returns from her creations, it seems like too much for one goddess. We've also established believing = / = giving faith as well, logically. Therefore she ISN'T getting it from the outside world (satanists be damned, I'd like to say that PROBABLY this would result in a being named Satan out of faith, NOT Shinki.). She is probably much like Satori and the rest, a Youkai who controls an area. She is just really damn powerful, no gimmicks about it. She just calls herself a goddess (mostly rightly so) because she owns a land to worship her as one. It makes things far less messy as far as where the hell all her power comes from, and certainly fits the feel she gives as a character.
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'Still?' I don't see why you feel the need to point this out- It is also listed in the Zun Profile.
Also, I already addressed this myself. I can still certainly claim I saw it as otherwise at one point in time, unless you can outright prove it was -never- edited within a determinate amount of time, and it was always stated like that.
I just appear to be wrong now.
Also, I swear to god everything on the wiki just changed on me what the crap, but the dolls are mentioned on the wiki. Whatever, It was a side not anyway. Ignore me, Rambling, I guess?
Sorry, I got the impression that you thought the dolls were removed from her profile. I wanted to reassure you they were still mentioned in the profile, but apparently you already knew that.
And yes, it is most plausible and fitting that Shinki just calls herself a Goddess, while actually being a reality warping youkai of tremendous power. There wouldn't be enough faith in the world for her to create Makai otherwise. Makes me wonder if Shinki's power rivals the likes of Yukari, Yuuka and Suika. Strange she doesn't get that much power respect from fans than those three. Yukari could create a world with her boundary powers, and Suika could make a planet by collecting enough meteors and crush them into a planet with her power of density, but Yuuka can only control plants! Sure, she has by far the greatest magic power and knowledge of all the characters, and that is what she relies on in battles, but she isn't a reality warper or world creator! She could only help Suika fill the new formed oni planet with plant life. Though, Yuuka's mansion is in fact a pocket dimension leading to the Dream World, and her battle arena becomes rather psychedelic in LLS, so maybe she is a reality warper after all?
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Reimu's on good enough terms with the divine to channel gods personally into herself. It really is weird that even she doesn't know much about her own shrine's god, though. (It apparently does have one? Byakuren seemed to be able to sense it in one of UFO's endings.) I'm generally content to let ZUN reveal whatever he feels like, but if there's one mystery I'm eager for him to address, it's the Hakurei shrine.
Anyway, it really is a good idea to remember that Gensokyo's workings are rooted in Shinto, which has a pretty different concept of gods than Western religions tend to, polytheistic or monotheistic. Heck, some consider "god" a bad translation in the first place. I'm no expert on Shinto, though (although Touhou isn't always mythologically faithful anyway, to say the least). I know it's not just polytheistic, it's animistic; there are major players like Amaterasu-omikami, anthropomorphic and full of stories, and then there are spirits of ancestors and spirits within trees and rivers, which it seems can also be enshrined and revered as gods, and everything has one.
So, who knows what can fall within the definition of "god" in Gensokyo? Perfect Memento has an article on the myriad gods of Japan, which spends most of its time talking about the spirits within tools and tsukumogami, and one on spirits of the dead that ascend to godhood after living as gods. The gods, we've been told, are basically spirits. Besides the mentioned god characters, I'm also very interested by the case of Sanae. She's got a god ancestor, she does miracles, she got treated like a god in the outside world, but in Gensokyo she gets considered both a human and a god. But then, even Suwako tells her, "You're not a human, you're a living god," and you'd think she'd know what she's talking about.
Left to my own devices (like if I was writing my own fanfiction... which I've thought about, which is why I've thought this out) I'd want to rule that "god" is just something to call those that are sufficiently godly, and gather enough faith, to warrant it. Course that leaves me the question of where youkai come in.
...And I wonder what Kanako's and Suwako's (and others'?) bodies are.
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S'alright.
This does bring up an interesting point, while the obvious inconsistency between Windows and PC-98 could just simply exist. (Depending if Yuuka's power was defined in LLS or not, I'm not quite sure). Shinki's power isn't given an accurate name- Her power could just be something like creations, but Yuuka brings up an interesting point going by PC-98. Is something like creation of a world somewhat of a standard youkai power? Yuuka's power tends to rely mostly on just being really bitching strong rather than uses of flowers (Master Spark could be an exception ala lol solar beam). It may just be somewhere on the line of progression that most youkai never reach, or usually to a much smaller degree of creation (Like, most youkai only control a home-sized space).
This could put the meaning behind Makai being Shinki's world in a new perspective- This is a full fledged world, while even Yuuka had just a mansion. It is even -inhabited-. This could just simply show what kind of level Shinki really is at, or show just how much a single youkai could do. This could also be kind of a statement on how Shinki loves to show off, while most youkai keep to a practical small area, she expands her power to the fullest. Though, this may also be because of Makai's former use, she just didn't have the time to downsize (This could be why she was deporting people too, she needs them outta there so she can shrink things down). This also explains why shes on the level of other giants, despite the tremendous difference in their 'spaces' size.
With something like this possible, it may be a difference between a faith-based being and youkai. A youkai has a space, a faith-based being has the WORLD as their space, due to being made of faith.
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the kasha faith
I am so going to steal that and use it in White Rose. Thank you.
Now that I am home, I can throw some more ideas. Maybe this is just a crazy theory, but I find it an interesting one: Yumemi is Christian.
Assumption no. 1 is that her crosses are not just for appearance. Assumption no. 2 is that she comes from our world. Assumption no. 3 is that she's religious and also a scientist (which is not as uncommon as the popular media would like to say it is, but w/e). We're also assuming she's Protestant and not Catholic (which is a pretty big assumption, much more than the previous three). But this would make her Gensokyo's one and only monotheist.
For the sake of argument, I shall over-simplify a Gensokyo definition of "God" as "any being that has worshipers and lives on faith". And now I have to wonder if a true god relies on faith at all. Kanako and Suwako came to Gensokyo precisely because they needed faith, but no one in Gensokyo but Mokou knows about Konohana-Sakuya. Then again, she is the goddess of immortality... whether or not she needs faith at all is questionable.
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Konohana-Sakuya. Then again, she is the goddess of immortality... whether or not she needs faith at all is questionable.
Excuse me though, but just who is this Konohana-Sakuya? I've seen several people on MotK mention her name. Does this refer to the cherry tree goddess from Okami? (her name was Sakuya...and she lived in Konohana...) Or is it Sakuya Izayoi's true identity? Or is it a character from one of the novels? When doing a search on her on Touhou Wiki there appeared no profile for her, only a reference in one of the stories. Could someone enlighten me why this is such an important character?
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Personally, I think K-Sakuya can be explained in the fact Mokou is very very very old. I suspect she was probably still worshiped back when Mokou met her. Even then, she could probably put herself into a low-faith using yield for a while- especially inside a mountain her legend is based on.
Assuming she IS still alive, I'm more interested if Faith can get to being inside the Gensokyo border. This would easily explain gods not well known to Gensokyo. This also brings up the pondering of what other gods are hanging out in Gensokyo. I mean, could Reimu just be going along one day and then-
WHAM.
THOR, GOD OF THUNDER ETC. A.K.A. MOTHER FUCKING THOR BITCH WANTS TO BATTLE
Or is he either gone or still hanging out around out here? Hell, Is the mountain K-Sakuya is staying at -in- Gensokyo?
As for Yumemi Christian-
I'd imagine possibly, its certainly possible.
Excuse me though, but just who is this Konohana-Sakuya? I've seen several people on MotK mention her name. Does this refer to the cherry tree goddess from Okami? (her name was Sakuya...and she lived in Konohana...) Or is it Sakuya Izayoi's true identity? Or is it a character from one of the novels? When doing a search on her on Touhou Wiki there appeared no profile for her, only a reference in one of the stories. Could someone enlighten me why this is such an important character?
Shes in one of the Chapters of... Crazy Lunatic Runegate whatever? The one with Mokou's story. Mokou blames her for everything, shes mostly another reference though. Actual god, Wiki it.
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Excuse me though, but just who is this Konohana-Sakuya?
Chao beat me to it, but yes, Konohana-Sakuya is from CiLR. (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate:_Chapter_4) She's also a tremendous bitch partially responsible for Hourai Elixir entering Gensokyo. Oh, and the goddess of immortality.
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I guess that in Gensokyo The gods you belive in is the god you pray too/worship. You can aknowladge the exsistance of other gods, because they are RIGHT THERE, IN THE SAME ROOM, WAVEING AT YOU but you don't really need to be praying to them.
It's like "Yeah, I know Jesus, he's my rad dude, But I'm a Muslim"
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My opinion is that there are tons of 'gods' out there, more than one with the same elemental property. Something like the Yamas. The 'gods' from Gensokyo are only divine beings that have materialized because of the strong desire of the people to explain natural phenomenons. The difference is that in Gensokyo, god can actually be seen by people and youkai, in other words, materialized energy (faith) used by these divine beings to take a shape that humans/youkai can comprehend.
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Now that I am home, I can throw some more ideas. Maybe this is just a crazy theory, but I find it an interesting one: Yumemi is Christian.
Assumption no. 1 is that her crosses are not just for appearance. Assumption no. 2 is that she comes from our world. Assumption no. 3 is that she's religious and also a scientist (which is not as uncommon as the popular media would like to say it is, but w/e). We're also assuming she's Protestant and not Catholic (which is a pretty big assumption, much more than the previous three). But this would make her Gensokyo's one and only monotheist.
also if she were Christian she'd have a little trouble reconciling a unified theory that includes magic with the Bible saying DO NOT DO MAGIC
just saying
I guess that in Gensokyo The gods you belive in is the god you pray too/worship. You can aknowladge the exsistance of other gods, because they are RIGHT THERE, IN THE SAME ROOM, WAVEING AT YOU but you don't really need to be praying to them.
Terry Pratchett quote goes here: "They didn't believe in gods. It would be like believing in the mailman."
The funny - really funny - thing about gods is that they always, always, ALWAYS exist purely as an abstract in this day and age. If you could take a walk outside and wave to your not-so-friendly neighborhood god, it's not the same thing as revering someone and believing in them. Yes, there are fantasy series in which the gods have direct acknowledged influence over the world, but I have to wonder from a purely sociological perspective if the worlds would actually run the way they are portrayed in the book. Having a concrete granter of prayers can have a pretty significant effect on peoples' worldviews.
Terry Pratchett's take on gods is one of the ones I've always found fascinating: if no one believes in them, they lose their power and can cease to exist. Hell, everyone in this thread who hasn't should read Small Gods, it's some excellent food for thought and hilarious to boot.
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Yumemi as a Christian is nonsense. Yumemi uses crosses for the same reason the Romans used crosses: To instill FEAR. And SURPRISE. And because of the BRIGHT RE- oh wait
But seriously, Yumemi just wants to almost murder you. For science.
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Yumemi as a Christian is nonsense. Yumemi uses crosses for the same reason the Romans used crosses: To instill FEAR. And SURPRISE. And because of the BRIGHT RE- oh wait
Yes, and it worked until those goddamned Christians decided to use that symbol as their own. :V Oh well, I still hold on to that theory as being at least remotely plausible (given the lulz-worthy state of PC-98 canon, anyway).
My opinion is that there are tons of 'gods' out there, more than one with the same elemental property. Something like the Yamas.
This brings up something else I was wondering about. Shikieiki's no goddess, she's a Yama, but she seems to be... how to say, outside of the system where she needs faith to be effective. She does not strike me as the type to have faith in the gods, though; she sees their moral failings too easily for that. I always did wonder if Shiki believed in any particular god or goddess, or at least where she gets her authority from in the celestial courts.
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Doubtful. I mean crap and a half, her first instinct upon meeting Kanako would probably be to call her a bitch. That said, I really don't think the Yama courts have authority from -anyone-. They're just there and being complete douches and sticking us in hell or heaven. No one asked them to, they're just there doing their thing. People just never question it because laser desk.
No one else would BOTHER doing her job anyone, and no one feels the need to go out and say 'You're judging -every soul in the fucking world-. Stop. Let them be free. I WILL FIGHT FOR MY PEO(ry' because its too much of a damn hassle. They literally just claimed a single spot of a market no one else wants.
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Yumemi as a Christian is nonsense. Yumemi uses crosses for the same reason the Romans used crosses: To instill FEAR. And SURPRISE. And because of the BRIGHT RE- oh wait
But seriously, Yumemi just wants to almost murder you. For science.
Actually she used it for the same reason that Hideki Anno used them in evangelion: The are foreign, strange but cool in a way. See this pagehttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreepyCoolCrosses (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CreepyCoolCrosses)
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Yeah, I prefer the Pratchett-style-gods version. My personal theory on the PC-98ers is like this:
1. Shinki isn't a god the way Kanako and Minoriko and Hina are. I call her an "Infinite Being" (after her themesong); presumably, she refers to herself as a god because it's quicker and easier than having to explain it every time ("I am the Infinite Being who created Makai, which is sort of like a god except not really!"). Equally-presumably, now that she's created Makai, she has no shortage of people who will worship her, not that she particularly needs it.
2. Mugenkan is a "dream world." It isn't "real" the way Gensokyo and Makai are; it probably isn't very large, and might not always have realistic physics, and if Yuka died or something it would cease to exist. (In fact, since it gets no mention in Windows continuity, this may have already happened.)
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I find it amusing how some comments upthread seemed to quantify the power of faith. Run out of faith indeed. It ain't a particle flux, people, it's an abstract concept with only the most minor correlation to real-world effects.
Regarding Gods and Youkai - this was touched on upthread, but I'll emphasise it, and Byakuren pretty much claimed it as well - the difference is purely semantic. The animistic nature of Gensokyo ensures that, even if there is no faith in a god of something, they will still be there because there needs to be an anthropomorphic manifestation of that something. It's how Gensokyan animism works. If they get faith from humans, that's extra icing on top, and they get to be called a God as well.
As for Mugenkan and whatever place Mugetsu and Gengetsu reside in - they're most certainly as real as Gensokyo is. Where the latter is created from conscious denial of fantasy, the former, being dream worlds and whatnot, are most likely created from the collective unconscious denial of fantasy, and the unconscious is at least as potent as the conscious is, if not more so. These are far less concrete due to the extremely mutable nature of the unconscious.
[edit] What is interesting is that only humans seem to be able to provide faith, not Youkai, no matter how human-like the latter are.
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I find it amusing how some comments upthread seemed to quantify the power of faith. Run out of faith indeed. It ain't a particle flux, people, it's an abstract concept with only the most minor correlation to real-world effects.
Except in Gensokyo, "faith" is treated like a physical thing, or at least an energy to be sought after and gathered. Applying real-world rules to Gensokyan concepts can lead to misundestandings like this.
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Except in Gensokyo, "faith" is treated like a physical thing, or at least an energy to be sought after and gathered. Applying real-world rules to Gensokyan concepts can lead to misundestandings like this.
Thing is, there's no evidence of faith being treated as something expendable. Once you have faith, you have it, and can wield greater powers as a result. Faith determines the size of your engine, as it were, not how much fuel is in it.
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But you can also lose faith. Kanako's story illustrates how faith works in Gensokyo very well.
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But you can also lose faith. Kanako's story illustrates how faith works in Gensokyo very well.
Yeah, this is true, and I didn't express myself too clearly above. My engine analogy is the best way I can express myself - lots of faith = big engine, little faith = small engine, and this is dynamic, based on how many worshipers one has at any given moment.
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Ah, gotcha.
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I just throw up some of my comments here.
- First of all, most who know Shintoism refer to these gods and deities as "kami", because "god" is not the appropriate term for them.
- I don't really think that Yumemi is from "our" world, she used a Dimensional Ship and high-tech, maybe she's from the far future, or another dimension.
- I think Makai is like those dream worlds in LLS and Alice's dream in MS. Shinki is the creator of Makai, as it's her dream; OR Makai already exist in old stories and stuff, and she is just a kami who gained enough faith to create it... or more like the people's faith in Makai created Makai and Shinki in the first place.
- And last, Monotheism is idiotic and stupid.
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- And last, Monotheism is idiotic and stupid.
Oh snap, that's certainly not a comment that will offend anyone, no sir.
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Thing is, there's no evidence of faith being treated as something expendable. Once you have faith, you have it, and can wield greater powers as a result. Faith determines the size of your engine, as it were, not how much fuel is in it.
To be fair, is there any evidence that that shows specifically that faith -isn't- expendible? Because I see both interpretations as equally viable (unless i'm missing some key information here.)
This brings up something else I was wondering about. Shikieiki's no goddess, she's a Yama, but she seems to be... how to say, outside of the system where she needs faith to be effective. She does not strike me as the type to have faith in the gods, though; she sees their moral failings too easily for that. I always did wonder if Shiki believed in any particular god or goddess, or at least where she gets her authority from in the celestial courts.
I know at least one metaverse (*koffkoff exalted*) that renders faith as both currency and power source, with the faith generated from general prayers to no-one specific going to a 'pool' that the Celestial Hierarchy distributes to all of the gods as a sort of salary. It could be like that.
Though if I had to craft my own theory, i'd say that the celestial courts and Shikieiki are an integrated part of the order of the cosmos, and they exist outside the faith-based system of interdependence that gods and humans go through. Shiki may still be a 'god', but a god that's an eternal mainstay of creation.
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Oh snap, that's certainly not a comment that will offend anyone, no sir.
Opinions offend people. This is why we have wars.
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Opinions offend people. This is why we have wars.
This may surprise some, but opinions can also be fundamentally wrong.
This is not the case for your comment, but there was clearly no other objective to it other than to incite argument or offend.
That said, this is going to derail, so I suggest we both stop right here and get back on topic.
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True dat. And people who know me, knows why I'm thinking like that (I'm not offending, I can go with a whole philosophical lecture why I'm thinking like that). So, people, continue.
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- I don't really think that Yumemi is from "our" world, she used a Dimensional Ship and high-tech, maybe she's from the far future, or another dimension.
- I think Makai is like those dream worlds in LLS and Alice's dream in MS. Shinki is the creator of Makai, as it's her dream; OR Makai already exist in old stories and stuff, and she is just a kami who gained enough faith to create it... or more like the people's faith in Makai created Makai and Shinki in the first place.
Yumemi is from another planet, not from another dimension. At least that is what ZUN wants us to believe. There is not a lot of information about her besides her official profile and in-game dialogue, but I doubt ZUN want to take other dimensions into Touhou canon. He already has a lot of problems trying to make sense in only one of them.
Makai is a realm as far as I know, which can only be accessed via Gensokyo. There are a lot of things that ZUN have to explain how they work, but if something is for sure, the Makai is a place that can be visited by any youkai/human strong enough to take up the challenge.
This brings up something else I was wondering about. Shikieiki's no goddess, she's a Yama, but she seems to be... how to say, outside of the system where she needs faith to be effective. She does not strike me as the type to have faith in the gods, though; she sees their moral failings too easily for that. I always did wonder if Shiki believed in any particular god or goddess, or at least where she gets her authority from in the celestial courts.
Well, Yamas are actually as strong as gods, so believing in a god herself would be really weird. I think that faith has nothing to do with her existence or power since she has a job that doesn't give any direct benefits to humans.
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- I don't really think that Yumemi is from "our" world, she used a Dimensional Ship and high-tech, maybe she's from the far future, or another dimension.
Maybe Yumemi is from the Seihou universe or something.
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also if she were Christian she'd have a little trouble reconciling a unified theory that includes magic with the Bible saying DO NOT DO MAGIC
Bit off-topic, but isn't just black magic (i.e. dark arts) that are forbidden?
Can't remember, but I know there's quite a few cases where something specific was, over time, generalized to something much larger.
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The Bible has proscriptions against divining, and says witches should be put to death, but doesn't say what constitutes a witch. They didn't cover danmaku, but as danmaku does "spiritual damage," my guess is that would also be a sin.
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The Bible has proscriptions against divining, and says witches should be put to death, but doesn't say what constitutes a witch. They didn't cover danmaku, but as danmaku does "spiritual damage," my guess is that would also be a sin.
Yumemi is Pre-Spell Cards. I'm pretty sure this is when people actively were trying to kill each other, lest there always have been some kind of magic game people played.
Therefore, she is just trying to knock people out/kill them deader. What her danmaku is expressing could be very well Yumemi running up and hitting people over the head with a giant cross.
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Yumemi is Pre-Spell Cards. I'm pretty sure this is when people actively were trying to kill each other, lest there always have been some kind of magic game people played.
Therefore, she is just trying to knock people out/kill them deader. What her danmaku is expressing could be very well Yumemi running up and hitting people over the head with a giant cross.
And what Yumemi's firin' could very well be laser guns, using her technology to use make-shift danmaku. She can't use magic herself. Otherwise she wouldn't be searching for it in Gensokyo!
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I quote an example I learned long ago.
the Izuna
The Izuna are miko in the southern parts of Japan, but instead of performing local duties of cleaning and maintaining a shrine, the Izuna-mikoto normally has to do the work of mediums.
Take note however, they don't believe in Gods, or God period, and that in classic mythology, it was rumored they all follow a common lifestyle of abstinence, and patience through meditation.
It is, if at all, they never do in fact worship anything.
I come to think of Reimu as a follower of such a path, who uses natural spirits (Aya, can be considered a youkai of the mountain, a natural occuring youkai guarding the mountain capable of manipulating wind), or even holy youkai (namely Yukari) to aid her conquest. Just as the old Izuna Mikoto did, they employed incantations that ask for the assistance of gods or god to come to their being, normally through possessing.
Many accounts recall they can summon spirits to inhabit them and talk in tongues, others say it gives them powers to do things normal humans cannot, such as lifting impossible weights. Izuna Mikoto can also be found in certain media concerning the making of holistic drugs, not unlike the Ayurveda treatment.
Izuna Mikoto have many accounts where they employed the strength of great deities, such as the Myo-oh (Bu Dong Ming Huang Da Pu Sha) the deity Bodhisattva that controls the element of fire, the fierce fourth heavenly guardian (as opposed to the Vaisravana); this being is said to make the Mikoto able to walk through fire, and rescue trapped individuals in burning houses and so on.
There are many accounts, talking in tongues is one such thing. In India, certain priests are known to have the ability to reach onto the human body and extract tumorous lumps from them and cure a human of an incurable disease, I reckon if Reimu is following the path of the Izuna, it would not be surprising that Reimu has the ability to be possessed by youkai and use their strengths, or employ certain means to utilize the youkai that surrounds her to do miraculous cures.
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Therefore, she is just trying to knock people out/kill them deader. What her danmaku is expressing could be very well Yumemi running up and hitting people over the head with a giant cross.
If you recall Sky Gunner, you threw giant crosses at whatever and shot the crosses to detonate them.
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AF's Izuna Mikoto theory can work, and I also read about them.
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Wow, and I thought Reimu already was a game breaker extraordinaire! If she could use the powers of the likes of Suika and Yukari as her own she'd be godlike!
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Wow, and I thought Reimu already was a game breaker extraordinaire! If she could use the powers of the likes of Suika and Yukari as her own she'd be godlike!
It's very possible that she did such a thing in SA.
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The thing with reimu is that she doesn't try that hard...and is a slacker usually unless there is an incident.
If reimu actually tried I would have beaten SA by now instead of getting stuck on stage 3.
And naito, reimu already is godlike..if she were to actually start trying.
well it would be her iight in IN....that was freaking insane and I was trying on normal mode.
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I think that that is strongly implied in SSiB, where she and Yorihime did call down the gods on themselves.
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It's very possible that she did such a thing in SA.
Nah, Yukari is the one pulling the strings in both the Reimu/Yukari and the Reimu/Suika scenarios, as far as I remember. In fact I believe SA has the youkai sending Reimu and Marisa to do their bidding in the underground in all scenarios. Can't really remember Nitori's, though.
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Nah, Yukari is the one pulling the strings in both the Reimu/Yukari and the Reimu/Suika scenarios, as far as I remember. In fact I believe SA has the youkai sending Reimu and Marisa to do their bidding in the underground in all scenarios. Can't really remember Nitori's, though.
As I recall nitori's was to get someone to investigate the new form of energy..
Basically check out how cool was nuclear fusion...
concusion being awesome
or something along those lines.