Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Lishy1 on December 12, 2009, 10:12:34 pm

Title: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lishy1 on December 12, 2009, 10:12:34 pm
From what I've read in Touhou 12's dialogue, even though Reimu was not the most innocent characters of the batch, Byakuren is actually evil.

Why do I think so? She wants to bring "equality" to humans and youkai.
In Gensokyo, it is Youkai who oppress humans and even enslaves them.
Byakuren, however, believes that Youkai are the ones being oppressed.

My point? Zun is brilliant. He just highhandedly portrayed a Hitler in Touhou. A seemingly heroic, divine figure who would actually bring forth "judgment" amongst the innocent in order to "save" Gensokyo. But in reality she would ultimately destroy Gensokyo and have humans reitrbute with unrealistic expectations.
Even the fanbase was fooled.

Just my 2 cents of this plain and to the point theory.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 12, 2009, 10:13:58 pm
She insists on fighting Marisa, who doesn't give two figs about humans or youkai.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Easy Mode on December 12, 2009, 10:14:09 pm
I just thought she wanted everything to be equal between humans and youkai. Like, actual equality. Not the Jim Crow of Touhou.


But Nazi Byakuren is hot too I guess.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: NinjaFoxX on December 12, 2009, 10:15:12 pm
lolwut?

so its Youkai hitler not Youkai Jesus?

but what about the Nazi Shrine Maidens?
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lishy1 on December 12, 2009, 10:16:33 pm
She wants youkai to be "equal" to humans.
This is also an equivalent to "feminazi" groups claiming the most ridiculous things are violating their rights, in the name of equality and feminism.
This was perhaps a reference by Zun about recent feminist groups trying to ban hentai and eroge because it "violates" "equality".


Of course, on the flip side, even with good intentions, Byakuren has the wrong idea of the scenario.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 12, 2009, 10:17:05 pm
I just thought she wanted everything to be equal between humans and youkai. Like, actual equality.
Marisa tells her that youkai are oppressing humans in Gensokyo and she believes Marisa is lying because youkai couldn't possibly oppress humans, prompting their battle.

People say Marisa is the only nice one, but in reality Marisa just makes Byakuren's true colors more clear.

EDIT: Yeah, I think Lishy has a point. Byakuren is like those "equal rights" groups who claim to want equality, yet at the same time want special benefits just for being themselves.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Pesco on December 12, 2009, 10:19:35 pm
People say Marisa is the only nice one, but in reality Marisa just makes Byakuren reveal her true colors.

That must be why MariB is the cannon ending.

This was perhaps a reference by Zun about recent feminist groups trying to ban hentai and eroge because it "violates" "equality".

ZUN is usually too drunk to think about those things.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Moerin on December 12, 2009, 10:21:59 pm
...Hitler...

Damn, and I was all about to agree with you until that point... *coughGodwin'sLawcough*

Oh well, at least some people think somewhat on the same lines as me and don't see her as some kind of all-loving trippy-hippy messiah figure.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lishy1 on December 12, 2009, 10:22:26 pm
Indeed.

There is no doubt that Zun purposely used irony in her dialogue because everything Byakuren says is the opposite of what she wants to do. That irony is symbolic for her character because Byakuren is actually twisted and messed up, as with her theme being so calming when she in fact attacks you, making her even more twisted. When you take into account that the environment is so eerie and the theme so tense, it creates an even more twisted effect.

This is why I find her character so dang brilliant.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dead Princess Sakana on December 12, 2009, 10:26:09 pm
I won't say too much about this, basically because bringing defining her as hitler personally disgusts me, but just think about one thing:

If I'm not completely off, Byakuren was sealed 1000 years ago, so before the creation of the Hakurei border. That would mean she was sealed in a world with a lot more residents than modern Gensokyo, in which youkai would probably be heavily outnumbered by humans. Being seen as a threat (for good reasons), oppression of youkai would be a logical and possible result. Byakuren simply wouldn't know that the situation is different in the Gensokyo in which she awakens.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Solais on December 12, 2009, 10:44:34 pm
ITT we have subjective opinions about Byakuren.

This is why I say, screw that, she's Youkai Jesus!
Also, what Sakana said. She's not evil, she was selfish yes, but she became the Mask, so that redeemed her. Y'know Theo, yeah she was a coward for that but people CHANGE. It's like it can't be forgiven what people did in the past. Or that people cannot change in general.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lishy1 on December 12, 2009, 10:50:17 pm
I'm pretty sure that before the Hakurei Border, youkai were even stronger than they were in modern Gensokyo. The border establishes at 0 AD, and before that were many many events as well, such as the war for the moon's surface.
And specifically, 1000 years ago was Yuyuko's death as a human, so that had even much more youkai occurrences oppressing the innocent.

Analyzing her further:

In MarisaA's scenario, Byakuren mentions she was sealed for using magic, and that she wanted people to call Youkai equals because she could use magic.
She asked if it was "okay" to use magic.
And when MarisaA says that humans are still being oppressed, Byakuren denies it saying that humans haven't changed, hinting that things were always the same.
This makes me presume by using "magic", she means to kill people.

In SanaeB's scenario, Byakuren says she wants to create a world where all is equal because Youkai is oppressed, and she attacks Sanae because Sanae disagrees.


But what god me thinking is ReimuA
In ReimuA's scenario, she says "but youkais are hated and gods worshiped. That's because humans decided it should be that way".
What this means is that Byakuren believes that the equality is humans should worship Youkai. And when Reimu questions if it's okay to leave her alone, Byakuren jumps to the conclusion that she cannot change her opinion of youkai so Byakuren tries to kill Reimu.
Reimu, who was able to see her true colors, says "Yep. There we go", hinting that she had a theory Byakuren was suspicious. Meanwhile, Byakuren comments humans are selfish and self-centered, when they've done nothing at all but resist Youkai oppression. Exactly what was in this case scenario where Byakuren tries to attack Reimu, with this being irony.

I'm convinced that Zun wrote her as a psychologically ill character with distortions of a twisted reality. Again, Byakuren is a character who is ironic.


edit:
To further enforce my theory, here`s an analogy:
(http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/fireemblem/zephiel.png)
Zephiel is to Fire Emblem as Byakuren is to Touhou


edit#2:

And SanaeA
Sanae just wants to return home. Byakuren questions her and Sanae simply says she's a hunter of youkai who do bad things. "I see humans haven't changed" is what Byakuren says in response.
Byakuren "grieves for Youkai that are oppressed by humans" and she did says she did everything in her power to create an "equal world", but she was still sealed away.
"Gods and Buddhas are no different from Youkai. Yet why are Youkai and gods worshiped?" She also says.
When she asks Sanae if she believes Youkai hunting to be just, Sanae responds it's needed to keep the peace.
Byakuren then concludes herself no better than a Youkai and attacks Sanae.

This backs up my theory is that Byakuren wanted Youkai to be worshiped. And this backs up that the reason she was sealed away was because she attacked humans.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: nintendonut888 on December 12, 2009, 11:15:46 pm
I've never thought of Byakuren as malicious. She's simply the well-intentioned extremist who doesn't understand a culture that rejects her ideals. She came to care for youkai in her selfish desire to retain her youth, and to see them exterminated by humans saddens her. What she doesn't understand is that Gensokyo's very infrastructure depends on this inequality between humans and youkai, one that has been alluded to many times throughout the series.

She's not "bad" at all; she simply doesn't get it.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lishy1 on December 12, 2009, 11:18:38 pm
She's not "bad" at all; she simply doesn't get it.
I just updated my previous post, backing up my argument why she is bad.

And I would like to mention that Youkai are in fact treated as equals in modern Gensokyo. Hence characters like Suika and Yukari all eating feasts together at the Hakurei Shrine.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Flandrenonymous on December 12, 2009, 11:22:24 pm
If I could bring up one possibility:

Places like Makai and Hokkai exist outside of Gensokyo, as in, they aren't wholly within the Gensokyo cordoned off by the Hakurei Border, right?

Additionally, Byakuren's backstory, nor that of her followers, seem to really mention Gensokyo at all.  In other words, they came outside of pre-Border Gensokyo (which was indeed haunted and plagued by Youkai).  It's very possible that youkai (at least the less animalistic sorts) outside of Gensokyo were being hunted down in worse ways than they were in Gensokyo.  I remember somewhere too something being mentioned about youkai flocking to Gensokyo for various reasons (faith and belief, or lack thereof, making them weaker, strength in numbers, sanctuary, etc.).

It's possible values dissonance.  I still personally have a hard time believing it to be as malevolent as it's being presented here.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: nintendonut888 on December 12, 2009, 11:24:42 pm
That's because "times are changing" in Gensokyo, probably because of Reimu's indifference towards youkai (only hunting them out of obligation and not hatred). The introduction of stuff like spell cards has made humans and youkai more friendly, but that does not change the fact that they're natural enemies. I'm quite certain this inequality and the need for it has been stated in the games themselves (some ending).

Quote
I just updated my previous post, backing up my argument why she is bad.

You can back up all you want, it doesn't change the fact that your points don't really condemn her. It's obvious she has a preference towards youkai, and yes she probably did bad things to humans for youkai's sake, but guess what? EVERYONE is like this in Touhou, and the fact that Byakuren has quite clearly reformed in the endings and truly wishes for equality between humans and youkai makes all your points moot.

Also FYI, the border was established in 1884, not 0 AD.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Fightest on December 13, 2009, 12:45:03 am
ITT: jumping to conclusions based on what amounts to hearsay.

Byakuren's comments on youkai being reviled and gods worshipped is actually a very poignant statement, and relates to prejudice and persecution due to ignorance. The assumption that she means that youkai are to be worshipped equally to gods is hardly basis for argument, as I can equally state that she means for the gods to be reduced to the same levels of disrespect as youkai.

I should additionally point out that in current Gensokyo youkai are persecuted. Need I remind you of the Human village? It's not the Beings of all sorts are welcome village. Reimu and her ilk are special cases, as they deal with youkai on pretty much a daily basis and they would be able to develop a rapport with the youkai community, whether they like it or not. The rest of the human population have no reason to treat youkai with any kind of respect, treating them as demons regardless whether it's true or not.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Sodium on December 13, 2009, 12:47:06 am
ITT: NAZI TO TOUHOU CHARACTER ANALYSIS.

Nice.

Whoa, a single EVIL Youkai Cherry Tree=ALL YOUKAI ARE KILLING HUMANS! Wow, I never knew that.

All four were stupid. Let's see...

Quote from: Raymoo, friend of Youkai
Yes, there we go!

I'll beat anyone who's a friend to youkai!
lol

Quote from: Raymoo, person equal to Youkai
Byakuren: You ... really don't think the same way
that I do, do you?

That humans and youkai can live together as equals
in the light of the Buddha ...

Raymoo: Th-there's no way!
olol

Quote from: Sanae, living god
The wholesome gods hunt the wicked youkai!
Oh yeah, telling someone that you're "holier than thou" is going to help the situation.

Quote from: Marisa, treasure hunter
A youkai like you
should just be quiet and give me my reward.
Because you know, telling someone to stfu and give you a reward is going to go places.

Quote from: Byakuren, Youkai
*Insert any final lines before the battle begins*
Because telling people that they're idiots will convince them NOT TO ATTACK YOU, or help you get your point across.

Basically, everyone decided to miscommunicate, or act like a bitch. Point of that exercise was to show how everything said there was basically "NU-UH, X IS BETTER THAN Y".

Oh, and Byakuren did let a ship full of people die to save Murasa, although more ships would've gotten sunk anyways, if Murasa wasn't removed from that general area.

And no, Byakuren didn't want Youkai to be worshipped. She was questioning why Gods are worshipped, while Youkai, who are similar to gods in her opinion, are hunted. That explains the "humans made it so" part.

/topic
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Seian Verian on December 13, 2009, 01:14:26 am
I should additionally point out that in current Gensokyo youkai are persecuted. Need I remind you of the Human village? It's not the Beings of all sorts are welcome village. Reimu and her ilk are special cases, as they deal with youkai on pretty much a daily basis and they would be able to develop a rapport with the youkai community, whether they like it or not. The rest of the human population have no reason to treat youkai with any kind of respect, treating them as demons regardless whether it's true or not.

I'd like to add, that perhaps the humans are indeed making the problem worse. By treating the youkai as demons, they alienate them. The carnivorous youkai aren't being given reasons to see the humans as more than another source of meat, and the rest end up seeing them as enemies as well. The persecution breeds hatred on both sides, thus making it a self-perpetuating problem. 

Of course, that's not even considering youkai such as Rumia and Mystia who aren't necessarily actively malicious, just stupid <_<; They probably wouldn't even bother to think about who they're going after. Of course, youkai such as them make the problem even worse than others most likely. They wouldn't understand enough to be willing to stop attacking humans even if the situation did become better, and/or most humans were powerful enough to fight them off.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Azinth on December 13, 2009, 01:32:31 am
Guys, you do know that this series is about a bunch of girls playing a card game right.  And unlike that other incredibly deep and meaningful series, there isn't even a Shadow Realm.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: nintendonut888 on December 13, 2009, 01:36:33 am
Whether or not they're actually playing around is up to debate too Azinth. :P I should just make a document listing all the times death is explicitly listed as the player's fate if they lose said "game." Also Touhou's deeper than most people think, but nobody believes me. :[

Quote
there isn't even a Shadow Realm.

Makai. :V
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lishy1 on December 13, 2009, 01:51:40 am
Touhou is deep in lore. Sadly, Zun fails at showing it in the maingames.
Note that I'm referring to the books.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: MaronaPossessed on December 13, 2009, 02:06:07 am
I'd like to add, that perhaps the humans are indeed making the problem worse. By treating the youkai as demons, they alienate them. The carnivorous youkai aren't being given reasons to see the humans as more than another source of meat, and the rest end up seeing them as enemies as well. The persecution breeds hatred on both sides, thus making it a self-perpetuating problem. 

Agreed. Was about to say the exact thing.

But quoted instead cuz im lazy:P
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 13, 2009, 05:07:33 am
Need I remind you of the Human village? It's not the Beings of all sorts are welcome village.
You're making a lot of assumptions.

Nowhere is it stated youkai can't go into the village (example: Ran and others go there for shopping, etc.). Likewise, I can't think of any source where they drive off youkai just for being near it. It seems to me more like a settlement to keep themselves safe from the ones that ARE dangerous (Rumia, etc.), because its been established human-eating youkai are actually pretty common.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Suikama on December 13, 2009, 05:24:07 am
I came into this topic thinking it was about Byakuren's design


Speaking of which I still kinda like this one (http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/503056/black_hair-blonde_hair-bow-duplicate-fake_screensh) better
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 13, 2009, 05:27:14 am
Speaking of which I still kinda like this one (http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/503056/black_hair-blonde_hair-bow-duplicate-fake_screensh) better
That character looks an interestingly lot like Kanako.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: MaronaPossessed on December 13, 2009, 05:41:20 am
I came into this topic thinking it was about Byakuren's design


Speaking of which I still kinda like this one (http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/503056/black_hair-blonde_hair-bow-duplicate-fake_screensh) better

Fake or not...I'm getting curious and curiouser O_O...eh back to the topic

Anyways yeah some Youkai probably go to the human village because they are probably trustworthy (since when Youkai are trustworthy!?) at not destroying or attacking the villagers/village. And of course obviously they're still discriminated.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Wylfred on December 13, 2009, 06:11:19 am
To each person is their own gensokyo.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 13, 2009, 08:40:18 am
To each person is their own gensokyo.
^ This + Dark Tewi


About Byakuren, fanom is dumb. She is a buddhist monk, not a christian. Annoying western fanbase calling her "Youkai jesus" is just to cry for.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dead Princess Sakana on December 13, 2009, 08:52:15 am
About Byakuren, fanom is dumb. She is a buddhist monk, not a christian. Annoying western fanbase calling her "Youkai jesus" is just to cry for.
That exactly. She has no single Jesus-exclusive attribute that would justify the name.

She loves every living being, huh?
Well then, she could as well be Youkai Nelson Mandela, Youkai Mother Theresa, Youkai Pope Paul II, Youkai Buddha, Youkai God, etc. etc.........
......or simply an intelligent and compassionate person.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Fightest on December 13, 2009, 09:11:11 am
Yeah, but Youkai Jesus rolls off the tongue better. Additionally, she was punished for everyone else's sins, which is an aspect commonly associated with Jesus.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Nobu on December 13, 2009, 09:35:55 am
About Byakuren, fanom is dumb. She is a buddhist monk, not a christian. Annoying western fanbase calling her "Youkai jesus" is just to cry for.

@Sakana: What human attributes are exclusive to one person, and one person only?

People are going to inevitably interpret things through their own culture lens, you can't really fault them for it because everyone does it. Typical westerner sees a messiah figure, they're inevitably going to draw connections to Jesus.

Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Bias Bus on December 13, 2009, 10:01:42 am
People are going to inevitably interpret things through their own culture lens, you can't really fault them for it because everyone does it. Typical westerner sees a messiah figure, they're inevitably going to draw connections to Jesus.
Pretty much this, even if it is kinda stupid considering her character has nothing to do with christians or the like. The moment I read a line that vaugely translated to 'died for their sins' I was like "Welp, let's get ready for the western fandumb to eat at this..."

Anyway, I'll just say (like a few others have) that Byakuren isn't evil, she's just "behind the times". End of story.

Now, go play outside, it's good for you.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 13, 2009, 10:02:34 am
Yeah, but Youkai Jesus rolls off the tongue better. Additionally, she was punished for everyone else's sins, which is an aspect commonly associated with Jesus.
She was not. She got sealed for "betraying" the humans and aiding youkais. She took the wrong path as buddhist and it is her own fault.

There isn't any aspect in her profile or background story that makes her a sort of jesus.  If you look it like that, you can put her into the Schindler's list role.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Nobu on December 13, 2009, 10:13:29 am
She was not. She got sealed for "betraying" the humans and aiding youkais. She took the wrong path as buddhist and it is her own fault.

There isn't any aspect in her profile or background story that makes her a sort of jesus.  If you look it like that, you can put her into the Schindler's list role.

It's all about your perceptions. It's *really* easy for the human mind to pick out details to make connections between two things, especially if someone points it out beforehand.

Byakuren was sealed, and came back. She has an association with religion, as well as followers.
She was persecuted for her beliefs. Even after they did that, she harbored no ill will towards the people that persecuted her.

I don't see how it's so difficult to imagine that *someone* out there would say "Hey, that's vaguely like Jesus! Haha." Especially in the west, where Christianity is weaved into pop culture the way it is. ???


Pretty much this, even if it is kinda stupid considering her character has nothing to do with christians or the like. The moment I read a line that vaugely translated to 'died for their sins' I was like "Welp, let's get ready for the western fandumb to eat at this..."

Anyway, I'll just say (like a few others have) that Byakuren isn't evil, she's just "behind the times". End of story.

Certification of Not Evilness from Erebus is about the closest we'll ever get to a professional opinion.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 13, 2009, 10:22:50 am
It is because people are in general pretty shallow minded. There is a huge misunderstanding:

She didn't got sealed for other people's sins. She got sealed for her own sins/'evil deeds'. It doesn't connects to jesus or jesus-alike as jesus was not evil. Period.

I agree it indeed depends on how you twist and bend the story and through what lens you look. Being sealed for her own or someone elses sins, bla bla etc. Therefor I agree fully with that.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Nobu on December 13, 2009, 11:00:18 am
It is because people are in general pretty shallow minded. There is a huge misunderstanding:

She didn't got sealed for other people's sins. She got sealed for her own sins/'evil deeds'. It doesn't connects to jesus or jesus-alike as jesus was not evil. Period.

I agree it indeed depends on how you twist and bend the story and through what lens you look. Being sealed for her own or someone elses sins, bla bla etc. Therefor I agree fully with that.

"It is because people are in general pretty shallow minded." - This statement hurts me as an fledgling psychologist. x_x The mind is a wonderful thing.


*ahem* Well, the fact of the matter is, both Jesus and Byakuren were persecuted for their beliefs. They died for their own sins, these 'sins' being judged by the ones doing the persecuting. Jesus was judged as evil by the ones doing the persecuting, and the same goes for Byakuren. The statement "Jesus is not evil" is an external view and judgement, the same way as "Byakuren is not evil"

The Youkai were judged as sinful, and she helped the Youkai, so you *can* think of it as "She was sealed for the sins of others." That doesn't change the fact she 'sinned' herself, but if the Youkai weren't inherently sinful then there'd be no problem.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Pesco on December 13, 2009, 12:12:43 pm
Talk of sins and whatnot? Byakuren x Sikieiki doujin pls.

inb4ruro :V
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Fightest on December 13, 2009, 12:36:13 pm
Talk of sins and whatnot? Byakuren x Sikieiki doujin pls.

I give this my full support.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Nobu on December 13, 2009, 01:50:39 pm
There are so many good things that could come out of a Byakuren x Shiki crossover. And that's not even talking about the porn. :V

I see Byakuren as one of the only people in the cast that would probably take Shikieiki's judgements to heart, potentially even breaking down as a result.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Bias Bus on December 13, 2009, 06:55:47 pm
Byakuren x Sikieiki
not_amused.png

I'm probably the only one here who'll treat this with disdain.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Pesco on December 13, 2009, 07:02:56 pm
The main point with suggesting it is that we aren't exactly in a position to judge Byakuren. Let the Yama sort it out.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dead Princess Sakana on December 13, 2009, 08:18:41 pm
@Sakana: What human attributes are exclusive to one person, and one person only?
Ah, that 'exclusive' was a bad choice of words from my side, sorry. I wanted to know how much of her character overlaps with the characteristics and actions of Jesus. That was answered by you in your later posts, and I acknowledge how the term Youkai Jesus is justified for many people, even though I myself am not completely comfortable with it (though it's better than Youkai Hitler  :V).
And in fact I have used the term myself, so I shouldn't complain too much.
It's just that the things that I, as a non-believer, associate with Jesus are very different from what Byakuren stands for.
As for me, I would probably rather associate her with freedom fighters than with a messiah, though I couldn't give a concrete name. (No, I won't call her Ché Guevara  :V )

And after that, I will go with Pesco. Just leave the judging to the Yama  :V
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: PostCrisisJ2 on December 13, 2009, 09:16:12 pm
I must be one of the few people who subscribe to the "huge misunderstanding" theory. Heck, I don't even find SanaeA's dialogue to be has SIEG HEIL as most people say it is. Maybe I'm just taking it easy because I already read too many blogs about racial issues and I like my Touhous as people who fight each other indiscriminately rather than some issue about power and privilege.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 13, 2009, 09:46:30 pm
Heck, I don't even find SanaeA's dialogue to be has SIEG HEIL as most people say it is.
That's because it's not. Sanae is at worst just naive, because anyone who's actually played Sanae type A (and don't skip the dialogue completely like most do) knows that it's clear she isn't entirely sure what she's supposed to be doing.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: warpshadow on December 13, 2009, 11:22:28 pm
That's because it's not. Sanae is at worst just naive, because anyone who's actually played Sanae type A (and don't skip the dialogue completely like most do) knows that it's clear she isn't entirely sure what she's supposed to be doing.
However you could probably say that of many real nazis. So the real difference is not that Sanae isn't like a nazi it's that Kanako isn't like Hitler.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 14, 2009, 01:22:34 am
Byakuren is a saint like Mother Theresa and I don't care about the facts or what any of you say.

I am also frustrated at the fact that I did not save my pro-Byakuren fact-based arguments from the imageboard. :<
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 14, 2009, 06:11:36 am
However you could probably say that of many real nazis.
Erm, not really.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 14, 2009, 06:43:37 am
I don't care about the facts or what any of you say.
That is so cold Ruro-chuwan ='(
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Suikama on December 14, 2009, 06:49:53 am
That is so cold Ruro-chuwan ='(
Ruro-chuwan ='(
chuwan ='(
='(
CHARISMA BREAK
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: warpshadow on December 14, 2009, 05:13:43 pm
Erm, not really.
Yes really. The problems with Sanae are most aobvious in her dialogue with Shou when Sanae's supposed reason for hunting Yokai (ie they don't follow god enough) is shown to be not always true but Sanae doesn't care.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Nobu on December 14, 2009, 05:29:56 pm
Yes really. The problems with Sanae are most aobvious in her dialogue with Shou when Sanae's supposed reason for hunting Yokai (ie they don't follow god enough) is shown to be not always true but Sanae doesn't care.

I don't think AlexX's dispute is about Sanae being naive, it's about your statement that 'you could say that about most Nazis'. But that's something completely off topic and much more suited for The Outside World than here.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Be Pok U (1998 burst style) on December 14, 2009, 06:50:14 pm
its true gensokyo isn't part of the outside world; where people of good-intentions are not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Slaves on December 14, 2009, 07:58:20 pm
not_amused.png

I'm probably the only one here who'll treat this with disdain.

sup

also,
Byakuren is a saint like Mother Theresa and I don't care about the facts or what any of you say.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Nobu on December 14, 2009, 10:57:05 pm
I should probably clarify, I was thinking more along the line of storylines featuring Byakuren and Shiki, of which could turn out pretty damn awesome. It makes me want to write fanfiction, in fact. Hmm...


HMM....
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: shadowbringer on December 15, 2009, 11:48:54 pm
I'm pretty sure that before the Hakurei Border, youkai were even stronger than they were in modern Gensokyo.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Monologue
From my perspective, the power of today's youkai has not weakened; on the contrary, it's too much for the small area that is Gensokyo.

The border establishes at 0 AD
I think you've mistaken
Quote from:  Touhou Wiki link=http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Gensokyo
0 (~1885 A.D.) - creation of the Great Hakurei Border
with 0 A.D.

regarding fights between youkai and humans, that's why the spellcard rules have been created, to avoid lethal fights, and to allow youkai and humans to keep fighting each other (especially because, with the spellcard rules, the Hakurei Shrine Maiden can be defeated without any serious consequences to Gensokyo), or else their abilities will diminish, making it easier for them to be overpowered by powerful outsiders. (I once mentioned, somewhere else, that MoF did a good job in exemplifying that case, and may have mentioned, yet elsewhere, that Marisa was clever, in SSiB, to get Yorihime to play under these rules, in order to avoid a serious fight, and to give them more chances of trying to win over her)

Analyzing her further:

In MarisaA's scenario, Byakuren mentions she was sealed for using magic, and that she wanted people to call Youkai equals because she could use magic.
She asked if it was "okay" to use magic.

from MarisaA's scenario (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Marisa_A%27s_Scenario), Marisa could've been treated the same way as Byakuren, if she were in Byakuren's place, except that Byakuren uses her magic to preserve herself, while Marisa.. blows stuff up.

Marisa: What?
You were sealed away because you used magic?
Byakuren: Yes, that's why I recognized youkai as equals
and called on others to do the same. Will you support me in that?


Byakuren's profile page says that she needed humans to believe in the existance of youkai and her own powers, or else her magic wouldn't work, and she would be susceptible to aging to death. So, she sought to preserve youkai from extinction. Later on, she would become a youkai herself, but there's no actual proof that she would use her magic to try to overpower humans, just speculations, theories, wishful thinkings, nothing more. (the only exception that I can think of, would be that youkai "must" attack humans, as well as humans are supposed to counterattack them, but this problem was addressed during the creation of the spellcard rules (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules) already, a process in which both human and youkai have participated and agreed on. Perhaps these rules are one of ZUN's ways of telling us that the characters do Take It Easy during the games, and that the setting is peaceful, other ways being ZUN's description (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Cherry_Blossom:_Music) of Alice's boss theme in PCB, and his afterword (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Afterword_by_ZUN) in PMiSS. Finally, Akyu's monologue (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Monologue) section in PMiSS)

(from the afterword section): I've said it so many times now, Gensokyo is idyllic and pastoral, and is a "peace at any price" kind of a world.

And when MarisaA says that humans are still being oppressed, Byakuren denies it saying that humans haven't changed, hinting that things were always the same.

Marisa: Saying youkai and humans are equal
doesn't make it true.
Especially coming from a youkai like you.
Byakuren: I see; I've already given up my humanity. I suppose it's pointless for a non-human like me to appeal for equality.
Marisa: That's right.
Byakuren: Humans haven't changed since my days in the temple.
How superficial, greedy, and unjust you are!
Now, namusan ―― !


Humans aren't "still being opressed", humans are "weaker and need more protection" than youkai, in Marisa's opinion. Marisa doesn't know Byakuren's motivations for trying to preserve youkai, and by extension, herself.
Byakuren replies, saying that humans haven't changed, referring to how they would chase youkai, and how they've treated her before. Byakuren also doesn't know, by the time she meets Marisa, about how the relationship between humans and youkai have developed. (sure, she's not supposed to even know about the spellcard rules, but apparently nearly everyone that appears in the games -- Sanae, Kanako, Utsuho, etc. -- can adapt themselves quickly enough. Also, what if Byakuren for some reason couldn't follow the spellcard system, ever? Either she would be fighting seriously, which is something that goes against the usual mood of the series, or.. she wouldn't be able to attack/defend herself at all. Who would play a shmup where the final boss doesn't offer any danger at all? :D)

In SanaeB's scenario, Byakuren says she wants to create a world where all is equal because Youkai is oppressed, and she attacks Sanae because Sanae disagrees.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Sanae_B%27s_Scenario

Sanae: Of course, I'm a god.
I understand the youkai were all trying to revive you,
but why?
Byakuren: The youkai ... were there perhaps
a tiger, a ghost spirit, and a Nyuudo?
Sanae: Mmm, that's about right.
Byakuren: I see ... so they all
still miss me ...
Even though I haven't been able to do anything for them
for over a thousand years ...
Sanae: Help them?
Are you a friend of the youkai?
Byakuren: A friend ... yes, I suppose I am,
but I'm also a friend to humans.
I want to create a world where humans and youkai live as equals.
I don't know if a god like you could understand,
but I want to see the oppressed youkai regain their status.
Sanae: Equals? Oppressed?
Whichever way you look at it,
humans are the ones being oppressed!
I want to see humans regain their status!
Byakuren: I see, it's too bad a living god couldn't see it my way.
However, I don't distinguish between youkai and gods.
Sanae: The wholesome gods hunt the wicked youkai!
Byakuren: Humans haven't changed since my days in the temple.
How self-righteous; you're an evil drag on us all!
Now, namusan -- !


Sanae picks a fight with her, both come from different viewpoints, as it was with Marisa's case (and both were, to me, convenient excuses so we could have a boss fight)

I'll continue later, no time left for today.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 16, 2009, 12:05:05 am
*Byakuren and Spellcard rules*
In the UFO "Bad" endings Byakuren seals the player character in Makai with her, and neither is able to leave. Byakuren doesn't want to kill them, but whether or not she follows the spellcard rules our girls have a pretty hefty price to pay if they lose to her.

EDIT: Spoiler'd since some might actually care about what the bad endings entail.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Tengukami on December 16, 2009, 09:42:06 am
Comparing anyone to Hitler is lazy. Comparing Byakuren to Hitler is just inaccurate. Unless I missed the part where Hitler talked about how Germans should be equal to and live in peace with Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and Catholics. What a failure of a comparison.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 16, 2009, 10:04:13 am
I am highly dissapointed in the thread title after all this discussion. ZUN stated MarisaB's dialogue is the best canon right? Thread title needs modification imo: 

Byakuren is NOT a good character

into

Byakuren is NOT a good character ZE
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on December 16, 2009, 03:41:24 pm
In the UFO "Bad" endings
I like to interpret it as "The heroine had to run away from the battle, leaving her with no chance to ask Byakuren for an easy trip back", but as I see it, they're not sealed. It's just harder (Read: WAY harder)to get out.
I am highly dissapointed in the thread title after all this discussion. ZUN stated MarisaB's dialogue is the best canon right? Thread title needs modification imo: 

Byakuren is NOT a good character

into

Byakuren is NOT a good character ZE
Goddamnit you and your DA ZE
Also, I kinda chuckled at this thread. Lots of misconception, trying to read too far in small details and the like.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on December 16, 2009, 06:12:54 pm
Also, I kinda chuckled at this thread. Lots of misconception, trying to read too far in small details and the like.
We're nerds, whaddaya want?
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 16, 2009, 07:00:35 pm
We're nerds, whaddaya want?

The truth.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Slaves on December 16, 2009, 07:11:28 pm
The truth.

you can't ha(ry
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on December 16, 2009, 07:31:48 pm
you can't ha(ry
http://www.instantrimshot.com/
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 16, 2009, 07:42:28 pm
http://www.instantcrickets.com/
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: shadowbringer on December 17, 2009, 12:29:48 am
for anyone that would like to check the.. endings. (http://touhou-endings.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Endings)

<Ruro> Edited for spoilers

I leave the interpretation of Byakuren's personality to you, readers.


now.. where was I?

But what god me thinking is ReimuA
In ReimuA's scenario, she says "but youkais are hated and gods worshiped. That's because humans decided it should be that way".
What this means is that Byakuren believes that the equality is humans should worship Youkai.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Reimu_A%27s_Scenario
Byakuren mentions that gods and buddhas are no more than youkai, some may interpret equality as :
- gods being equal to youkai
- the human standards (the "But youkai are hated, and gods are worshipped. That's because humans decided it should be that way." bit) being neither more nor less important than the youkai standards
- Byakuren aiding both humans and youkai without distinction. There are several places (Byakuren's profile, and in the endings) where it's stated that Byakuren doesn't dislike humans.

And when Reimu questions if it's okay to leave her alone, Byakuren jumps to the conclusion that she cannot change her opinion of youkai so Byakuren tries to kill Reimu.
Byakuren: I can't change your desire
to eliminate all youkai.
However, if you're going to seal me away again -- I will resist you with all my strength.

once again (if you remember my previous post), a case of Byakuren not knowing about how youkai are treated nowadays, and thinking that Reimu would actually try to kill youkai.

Funny thing, is that Reimu's next line says that she's going to beat anyone that's a friend of youkai. Wouldn't that include herself? Or was this another of her non-serious "dramatic speeches", like in her PoDD's scenario (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Dim.Dream:_Reimu%27s_Scenario)?
Reimu: Whatever, I won't lose! Let's go!
Yumemi: Just a minute. I need to change into something more suitable for battle.
Reimu: You have no dramatic sense at all~
Yumemi: Okay, let's proceed.
Chiyuri: All you did was add a cape...


Reimu, who was able to see her true colors, says "Yep. There we go", hinting that she had a theory Byakuren was suspicious.
more like, Reimu follows her intuition and defeats the person who has the role of incident causer, according to the spellcard rules. Besides, literally beating people who are friends to youkai sounds masochistic, in Reimu's position.

Meanwhile, Byakuren comments humans are selfish and self-centered, when they've done nothing at all but resist Youkai oppression.
..when they've sealed her and everything related to her (elsewhere), including Murasa, and would've sealed Shou, if she had let the humans know that she was actually a youkai.
Besides, in the old Gensokyo, humans hunted youkai as well as youkai hunted humans. Byakuren wanted to aid them equally, and was banished by humans. Now that I think of it, while I've previously mentioned that MoF did a good job in showing us an example of the possible menace of powerful invaders from outside, as foreseen in the draft of spellcard rules, UFO (together with PMiSS) did a good job in showing us the contrast between Byakuren and Reimu's eras, yet having this story being told through the usual Windows-series' spellcard-friendly format. (of course, there's room for improvement)

Exactly what was in this case scenario where Byakuren tries to attack Reimu, with this being irony.
Reimu actively tries to defeat Byakuren, due to intuition and having to defeat the incident causer, and Byakuren misunderstands this as Reimu trying to re-seal her and actually kill more youkai.

I'm convinced that Zun wrote her as a psychologically ill character with distortions of a twisted reality. Again, Byakuren is a character who is ironic.
may I ask why are you convinced of this? And what's ironic about her?

To further enforce my theory, here`s an analogy:
Zephiel is to Fire Emblem as Byakuren is to Touhou
I haven't played Fire Emblem, can't understand the analogy.. sorry..

And SanaeA
Sanae just wants to return home. Byakuren questions her and Sanae simply says she's a hunter of youkai who do bad things. "I see humans haven't changed" is what Byakuren says in response.

Byakuren: My name is Byakuren.
I was a Buddhist monk a long, long time ago.
You seem to be a shrine maiden, am I right?
Sanae: Yes, I'm a shrine maiden that hunts youkai.
Byakuren: A youkai hunter ... ?
Sanae: Yes, I hunt youkai who
do bad things to people.
Byakuren: ... ... I see humans haven't changed.
Sanae: I'm sorry?
Byakuren: I grieve for the youkai
that are oppresed by humans.
I did everything in my power to create a peaceful world
where humans and youkai could live as equals.
And yet, I was sealed away by humans
who didn't want that sort of world.


Byakuren thinks Sanae doesn't want such a peaceful world

When she asks Sanae if she believes Youkai hunting to be just, Sanae responds it's needed to keep the peace.
Byakuren then concludes herself no better than a Youkai and attacks Sanae.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Sanae_A%27s_Scenario
first thing.. the youkai Sanae claims to be hunting are the same youkai (not speaking of species such as tengu and kappa here) that populates the Youkai Mountain and provide faith to Kanako; Byakuren says that, by Sanae's point of view, she (Byakuren) would be no different than a youkai, and since Sanae has said she (Sanae) hunts down youkai..
Sanae: Then, I guess it's time to beat you!
(at this point, I don't need to mention Byakuren's lack of knowledge about today's relationship between humans and youkai and the purposes of the spellcard rules, do I?)

This backs up my theory is that Byakuren wanted Youkai to be worshiped. And this backs up that the reason she was sealed away was because she attacked humans.
she got Shou to be worshipped by youkai, because she was a devotee of Bishamonten, who was too busy to stay around her temple for a long time, and who was feared by youkai. Shou herself was virtuous enough to earn the trust of Bishamonten, as his disciple.

Humans can get youkai followers for their gods as well (right, Sanae?), and Byakuren was sealed because she was somehow caught sparing/saving youkai, when she was expected (by the humans) to be hunting them. Not that the humans weren't capable of fighting the youkai, as well.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dollywitch on December 17, 2009, 01:48:47 am
wat

It's just a typical "Hero out of time" scenario. Maybe kind of clever, but not very Nazi.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on December 17, 2009, 02:34:27 am
You mean kind of tiny, tiny, clever? *runs*
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Toasty on December 17, 2009, 04:07:28 am
Quote from: thread title
Byakuren is NOT a good character

Quote
Ending No.05 No, Byakuren is really a nice person.

This made me laugh quite a bit.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 17, 2009, 07:46:59 am
You people are still misunderstanding it.

Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a massive spank from Reimu or Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl. It has been proven in each game.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Pesco on December 17, 2009, 07:48:32 am
Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a Master Spark from Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl.

Fixed
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on December 17, 2009, 12:56:21 pm
Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a Master Spark from Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl ZE
Fixed
Further Fix'd
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: shadowbringer on December 17, 2009, 05:17:50 pm
this means that Sikieiki, Kanako and Utsuho, and Suwako and Koishi are out of this scope, right? :D
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Quad City QBs on December 17, 2009, 07:50:38 pm
i agree, bitch de-friended me on facebook
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 17, 2009, 09:02:03 pm
this means that Sikieiki, Kanako and Utsuho, and Suwako and Koishi are out of this scope, right? :D

No?
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: shadowbringer on December 18, 2009, 10:13:56 am
Master Spark in PoFV/MoF/SA? (I wasn't supposed to have to explain such a joke :D)
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: warpshadow on December 18, 2009, 06:39:41 pm
You people are still misunderstanding it.

Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a massive spank from Reimu or Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl. It has been proven in each game.
Exactly. You notice how much that is little Starlight Breaker and you realize that Marisa can befriend just about anybody.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Maiden Synnae ミ☆ on December 19, 2009, 08:42:04 pm
Byakuren's ideals are not good, I don't know where the fan base got this idea. She just helped youkai because of hear fear of losing her power, which is nothing but bloody egocentrism. The equivalent rights case was a mare excuse for doing so.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: nintendonut888 on December 19, 2009, 08:49:04 pm
Byakuren's ideals are not good, I don't know where the fan base got this idea. She just helped youkai because of hear fear of losing her power, which is nothing but bloody egocentrism. The equivalent rights case was a mare excuse for doing so.

Except that her official profile says that over time she really did start to care for the youkai she was rescuing, rather than just using them for her own self-preservation.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: shadowbringer on December 21, 2009, 12:12:05 am
Losing her powers also mean being susceptible to age until death. Her fear is understandable.

In order to maintain her powers, people must believe in magic, and in the existance of youkai. I think that she has found a home in Gensokyo. :p

If Byakuren's said ideals mean youkai and humans stopping to fight each other, then they'll be bad for Gensokyo. But if these ideals mean coexistence, equal treatment, aiding without distinction, perhaps her ideals are already a reality, in Gensokyo, and weren't in her time/place.

(I wonder if there will be any characters in TH13 that are related to her past, it would be so lol, as if Byakuren is another piece in the domino chain that started in TH10 :p)
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on December 21, 2009, 04:05:07 am
(I wonder if there will be any characters in TH13 that are related to her past, it would be so lol, as if Byakuren is another piece in the domino chain that started in TH10 :p)
That, or it'll start over again with another directly Moriya Shrine conspiracy.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lishy1 on December 21, 2009, 05:36:09 am
Eirin's Shaddy New Drug is way more likely :V
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Flandrenonymous on December 21, 2009, 06:44:51 am
That, or it'll start over again with another directly Moriya Shrine conspiracy.
Eirin's Shaddy New Drug is way more likely :V

Those sorts of templates are forbidden. :-\
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 21, 2009, 06:47:04 am
It's interesting to note that outside of Gensokyo, youkai don't stand a chance against humans. Byakuren is right when she said that the youkai are being oppressed-- it's just not applicable to this one land of all places, the one world where they really are free.

Besides, YOUKAI HAVE FEELINGS TOO, WHY DON'T THEY GET TO HAVE A SAVIOUR :<

Byakuren for Touhou 13 go go go.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: warpshadow on December 21, 2009, 07:13:23 am
It's interesting to note that outside of Gensokyo, youkai don't stand a chance against humans. Byakuren is right when she said that the youkai are being oppressed-- it's just not applicable to this one land of all places, the one world where they really are free.

Besides, YOUKAI HAVE FEELINGS TOO, WHY DON'T THEY GET TO HAVE A SAVIOUR :<

Byakuren for Touhou 13 go go go.
Except for I think it's a law that you need to have previous experience as a level 5 boss to be a playable character unless you are Reimu or Marisa. Or at very least have one as your chaperon unless ZUN decides to make Touhou 13 phantasmagoria of something and even then It's only the unlockables. The problem being I have a sinking feeling that Shou doesn't swing a big enough fan hammer to be the third character in a game.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 21, 2009, 07:17:08 am
Honestly, the only character in in UFO who has enough of a fanbase to pull off a comeback is Unzan. But he is male and therefore ZUN does not like him. So failing Unzan, Kogasa is the only one likely to surprise anyone with a return. Shou has the "5th stage boss" thing going for her, but not the popularity that usually comes with it (Sanae being the most recent example). Hmm. Maybe Murasa?

... okay, maybe Byakuren for 13.5 the fighting game go go go.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: shadowbringer on December 21, 2009, 02:42:20 pm
Except for I think it's a law that you need to have previous experience as a level 5 boss to be a playable character unless you are Reimu or Marisa. Or at very least have one as your chaperon unless ZUN decides to make Touhou 13 phantasmagoria of something and even then It's only the unlockables. The problem being I have a sinking feeling that Shou doesn't swing a big enough fan hammer to be the third character in a game.
there's IN solo :D (you may play as Yukari, Alice, Remilia or Yuyuko)

I wonder if ZUN will ever try to use Armed Police Batrider's formula. In APB, you formed a team of 3 members, and could choose from 18 characters (there were the Police Team, the Psychic Team, the Criminal Team, and the guest characters from Battle Garegga and the Mahou Daisakusen series), or you could use a single character (which was bad for scoring in APB). Depending on the characters you've selected, you could fight additional bosses under some special conditions. APB was a very deep game, though I think that the aura attack made scoring a bit too difficult (for me, at least) on that game (meaning that you must get close to your enemies in order to damage them with your aura, and maintain the difficulty rank low enough for them to not shoot in your face :p).
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 22, 2009, 04:20:04 am
Shou has the "5th stage boss" thing going for her, but not the popularity that usually comes with it (Sanae being the most recent example).
Err, from what I understand nobody likes Sanae (even back from her MoF introduction). I think making her playable was more attributed to the fact the Moriya shrine has been pretty important to the most recent story arc.

If popularity was that important we'd probably have Suwako as playable instead.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 06:33:58 am
Err, from what I understand nobody likes Sanae (even back from her MoF introduction).

What rock have you been under? (http://safebooru.donmai.us/post/show/397357)

This isn't the picture I wanted, but it'll do. The gist of it is that Sanae won fourth place in the most recent major popularity poll. This was immediately after SA's release, and it's worth noting that while Satori got a combined 5th place (character + music rating), Orin did far worse, and she hasn't exactly returned for another Touhou game.

Oh, and Suwako isn't anywhere near the top ten, as I recall. But I could be wrong. This was a while ago.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Moerin on December 22, 2009, 06:37:34 am
Basically, just because you don't like them doesn't mean no-one else does.

As for Byakuren... Putting aside all my bias towards her, I will have to admit that she does mean well.  She's just... Behind the times, I suppose.  Or ahead of them, I'm not sure.  Either or.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Suwako Moriya on December 22, 2009, 06:38:22 am
Oh, and Suwako isn't anywhere near the top ten, as I recall. But I could be wrong. This was a while ago.

I returned because I'm just too cool to be held out.

Earthquake in a can, girl.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 06:42:56 am
I returned because I'm just too cool to be held out.

Earthquake in a can, girl.

Oh, I forgot. UNL. Utsuho returned too.

Hope you enjoy being the most useless insane erratic character in the whole game o/
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 22, 2009, 06:55:58 am
Basically, just because you don't like them doesn't mean no-one else does.
What are you talking about? Sanae is one of my favorites. =V

I was always under the impression Sanae was pretty unpopular in both the west and the east, from the start but especially after her (seemingly) random cameo in SA. I assumed she just wasn't a popular character since every source I had available said so, backed up by the fact I don't even know that many who like her, but apparently I was mistaken... (though I'm still pretty sure Suwako is pretty popular)
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Suwako Moriya on December 22, 2009, 07:10:15 am
Oh, I forgot. UNL. Utsuho returned too.

Hope you enjoy being the most useless insane erratic character in the whole game o/

To hell with convention! I'm my own woman, I do things my way. Do you have any idea how boring my lifetime would have been if I spent every moment of it conforming?
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 07:15:34 am
Do you have any idea how boring my lifetime would have been if I spent every moment of it conforming?

It could be worse, you know. You could have a moveset that involved you flapping your sleeves like a bird and dancing the dance of your people. Something like
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9218/1250734113190.gif).

... Oh, wait. Never mind. Forgot who I was talking to for a moment there.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Suwako Moriya on December 22, 2009, 07:26:22 am
You ain't livin' if you ain't havin' fun, sister.

(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8461/suwakofly.gif)

Look at that. You can't tell me I'm not awesome.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 07:28:50 am
Look at that. You can't tell me I'm not awesome.

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2156/reimucopter.gif)

Sorry, girl, but armpits has you beat there.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Lucifer on December 22, 2009, 07:34:42 am
...(http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac239/YuyukoSaigyouji/suika.gif)
Drunken Awesomeness..
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Suwako Moriya on December 22, 2009, 07:39:06 am
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2156/reimucopter.gif)

Sorry, girl, but armpits has you beat there.

Oh, please, that's one animation. I have 'em comin' out the wazoo.

(http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8454/125041249584551.gif)

Trumped like fuck.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: nintendonut888 on December 22, 2009, 07:44:34 am
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2498/awesomevg.png)
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 07:45:09 am
If only there was a sprite for the catfish.

(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/218/aliceyandere.gif)

In lieu of that, nothing Suwako does can outdo the craziness of Meiling's entire scenario.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Suwako Moriya on December 22, 2009, 07:52:59 am
Listen. I may be a God, but even I have some logically-defined limits. I can't compete with a shroom-induced drug trip.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 22, 2009, 08:54:29 am
Remilia is obviously the best for being a spoiled bitch. I wonder if she is just as bratty in UNL as in SWR where she forced Sakuya to bring the 'suspects' to the mansion by force.


If popularity was that important we'd probably have Suwako as playable instead.
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

( will never happen )
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: LordVant on December 22, 2009, 09:02:57 am
What happened to Byakuren, huh? Anyway, I don't mind really. Basic argument, despite all that the final bosses have done, Remilia with the Scarlet Mist, Yuyuko stealing spring/Lily White, Suika partying, Eirin making a fake moon, Komachi slacking off, Kanako trying to take over Hakurei Shrine, Tenshi stirring up trouble, Utsuho gaining her nuclear powers, and now Byakuren, regardless of their intentions, they always end up just relaxing in Gensokyo and going to the yearly party at Hakurei shrine to get hammered. That's pretty much the end all/be all of outcomes. Intention can go screw itself.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: mew77 on December 22, 2009, 03:11:44 pm
Of course, logically the first thing you do after narrowly defeating a final boss is invite them to a tea party.

Everyone knows that.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Flandrenonymous on December 22, 2009, 04:17:46 pm
Let me just note one thing:

Of the Windows Touhou games (not counting StB), Byakuren is the only final boss not to instigate her game's story/incident besides Shikieiki.  Remilia did the Red Mist, Yuyuko stole spring, Suika made the endless feasts, Eirin and Kaguya made the false moon, Kanako and co. tried to steal faith (Suwako just went along for the ride since Kanako was the one panicking about lack of faith), Tenshi caused the natural diasters, and Okuu went mad with power.

If it wasn't for Nue pranking Gensokyo, nothing would've really happened.

Just something to bring up, you know.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: warpshadow on December 22, 2009, 07:43:25 pm
Listen. I may be a God, but even I have some logically-defined limits. I can't compete with a shroom-induced drug trip.
I heard Kanako could. Maybe that's why she is the main goddess of the shrine.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 09:24:35 pm
If it wasn't for Nue pranking Gensokyo, nothing would've really happened.

Thank you for pointing this out. I can now blame the clusterfuck that is UFO on Nue being a bitch.

Not that I didn't before, but now I can do it with a clear conscience.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Flandrenonymous on December 22, 2009, 09:49:49 pm
Thank you for pointing this out. I can now blame the clusterfuck that is UFO on Nue being a bitch.

Not that I didn't before, but now I can do it with a clear conscience.

To her defense, it wasn't like she was being a Tewi-level bitch.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 22, 2009, 10:03:22 pm
Kogasa and Nue are the duo suprise team. \o/
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Solais on December 22, 2009, 10:04:31 pm
Kogasa x Nue (x Sanae) is now Canon! \o/
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 10:05:52 pm
To her defense, it wasn't like she was being a Tewi-level bitch.

Possibly, but the idea of someone setting off a huge chain of events that results in so much suffering on the player's part (like UFO) just gets my blood boiling. I never much liked the prankster archetype; selfish fun isn't exactly high on my list of character traits I like.

To be sure, that was a problem with Byakuren at first; she really did help them for selfish reasons. But her profile says that she changed over time to start working for almost altruistic reasons, which is more than I can say for Nue.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

ffffffffffff

Kogasa and Nue are the duo suprise team. \o/

Kogasa is adorable, though. And somewhat incompetent but still determined, which I find adorable.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Kogasa x Nue (x Sanae) is now Canon! \o/

Can we please get rid of Nue? Apart from that, I endorse this completely.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Moerin on December 22, 2009, 10:06:47 pm
I dislike this character and will take every chance to villify her

...Whee~

Kogasa and Nue are the duo suprise team. \o/

Well, the way I see it, Nue is pretty much what Kogasa aims to be.  In other words, Nue is successful whereas Kogasa fails so often.  It's no wonder she showed up in the extra stage.  She probably just wanted a few pointers, that's all~
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: PostCrisisJ2 on December 22, 2009, 10:16:48 pm
So basically, would this mean that Nue is actually the true final boss of UFO?
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Helepolis on December 22, 2009, 10:18:37 pm
So basically, would this mean that Nue is actually the true final boss of UFO?

No.


Hey Ruro :3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcZSgkIrs_o&hd=1#t=2m45s)


@ Theorist, that is how I see Kogasa as well. And my own thought why she is exactly an EX boss as well. Kogasa just rocks.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Solais on December 22, 2009, 10:21:56 pm
Can we please get rid of Nue? Apart from that, I endorse this completely.

But but but, I like Nue... ;_;
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 22, 2009, 10:23:06 pm
It's not my fault Nue is so damn easy to vilify :V Having no redeemable qualities helps, I must admit.

It's to Byakuren's credit that she still accepted Nue into her group even after Nue decided to fuck with the Palanquin Ship crew just because, as her profile states, she thought it would be funny if they failed.

And then her profile says that Nue began to feel some regret, but only after she realized that what Murasa and her crew were doing would benefit her. Selfish much?

In fact, the ones who probably come out with the best reputations are Murasa, Shou, and Ichirin. Less so Murasa, if only because she liked sinking ships full of humans in the distant past, but the point still stands.

So basically, would this mean that Nue is actually the true final boss of UFO?

I would argue that yes, she really is the true final boss of UFO. It would explain why her boss fight is ridiculously easy compared to any other extra stage boss.

Quote from: Amakasu Barley Helepolis link=topic=4335.msg202308#msg202308
Hey Ruro :3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcZSgkIrs_o&hd=1#t=2m45s)

Watching Nue beaten up is :3. I have such fond memories of that from UFO extra.

But but but, I like Nue... ;_;

I like Kogasa and Sanae more, and you do too. :<
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Grand Octopus on December 22, 2009, 11:03:45 pm
Possibly, but the idea of someone setting off a huge chain of events that results in so much suffering on the player's part (like UFO) just gets my blood boiling.

UFO wouldn't have happened if Nue hadn't scattered/disguised the Tobikura fragments.
Nue wouldn't have scattered/disguised the Tobikura fragments if Murasa & co hadn't been released by Utsuho's geyser.
Utsuho wouldn't have created that geyser if it wasn't for the power she received from Kanako.
Kanako wouldn't have given that power to Utsuho if she hadn't come to Gensokyo.
Kanako wouldn't have come to Gensokyo if humans hadn't embraced science and begun to lose faith in the gods.

So thinking about it, UFO was partially your fault as well.

On a more serious note, this thread has made me appreciate that the Kanako/Nue tag-team has basically been responsible for Touhous 10, 11 and 12. Fuck yes, my opinion of them has risen further.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 22, 2009, 11:18:55 pm
Nue wouldn't have scattered/disguised the Tobikura fragments if Murasa & co hadn't been released by Utsuho's geyser.
I'm pretty sure Nue was sealed with them for some reason. =V
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Grand Octopus on December 22, 2009, 11:29:48 pm
I'm pretty sure Nue was sealed with them for some reason. =V

Quote from: Nue's profile
She just enjoyed watching humans get frightened and imagine all sorts of strange things from afar. That was her daily work.
Eventually she got tired of that and leisurely spent a long time deep beneath the earth's surface, but she got mixed up in the turmoil surrounding the geyser incident and appeared above ground once more.

Her profile doesn't really make it sound like she was sealed, although I know this doesn't exactly correlate with her dialogue in some of the Extra scenarios. Just throw her in as part of 'Murasa and co' if you want.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Moerin on December 22, 2009, 11:40:13 pm
This is just wild theory territory, but somehow I think what Nue tells us about herself can't really be trusted, as though she's trying to hide something.  I mean, just look at her name for a second.  "Nue Houjuu".  The name of her species, and "sealed beast".  It sounds way too much like a pseudonym to me...

Just a random thought, really~  Ignore it if you will.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Sapz on December 22, 2009, 11:43:32 pm
/me wanders into the thread and is assaulted by a wall of Nue-hate

Ruro, you realise that your whole argument for Kogasa being better than Nue is pretty much that: I imagine Nue could be just as determined if she didn't actually succeed at things. :V

In gameplay terms, Nue's stage is pretty much the most fun stage in the game by quite a long way, whereas Kogasa's is made of rape, boredom and bullets that spawn on you (having said that I'm kind of biased because Kogasa has been the cause of a few hundred too many restarts lately).
On a more serious note, this thread has made me appreciate that the Kanako/Nue tag-team has basically been responsible for Touhous 10, 11 and 12. Fuck yes, my opinion of them has risen further.
This is the way you should be thinking~

Aside from that, though, yeah, Nue has very few good qualities aside from having the nicest legs in UFO. That's what makes her interesting, though; where's the fun and unpredictability in a perfect character?
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on December 23, 2009, 04:46:42 am
Quote from: Ruro
Rawr rawr Nue haet whenever someone puts N, U, and E anywhere near each other
I'd just like to point out that, for this and various other reasons, whenever I see that Kurumi And Elly's Excellent Adventure has updated, I mutter "Die in a fire" under my breath instead of clicking on it.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on December 23, 2009, 06:50:44 am
Ruro, you realise that your whole argument for Kogasa being better than Nue is pretty much that:
  • She's adorable (which I agree with but is completely subjective).
  • That she can't actually get anything done.

Actually, there's one part of her that simply charms me that no one else seems to share; the fact that she seeks to improve her technique by reading old ghost stories. I just find the idea of Kogasa sitting in Kourindou reading an old copy of Dracula utterly adorable. :x On that note, I don't find anything charming about Nue. I just don't.

And UFO extra the stage is bullshit the likes of which has not been seen since MS stage 5. That said, it's also very fun, and the only reason I did end up beating Nue was because she and her stage are enjoyable in their own right. This is why Nue is not dead last in my character ranking. Speaking of, Genzanmi Yorimasa is bar none the best card in the whole game, and the fact that Nue does in the end show some spirit and uses the weapon she fears most against the player does up my respect for her by a fair bit.

But seriously, FUCK Rainbow UFOs.

Quote
Aside from that, though, yeah, Nue has very few good qualities aside from having the nicest legs in UFO. That's what makes her interesting, though; where's the fun and unpredictability in a perfect character?

Nue does not have the nicest legs in UFO. She doesn't even have the nicest legs in UFO Extra. That said, Yumemi is in a dead heat with my favourite character Shikieiki precisely because she's got such a crazy personality. Don't ask me to explain why I like Byakuren so much, in that case.

I'd just like to point out that, for this and various other reasons, whenever I see that Kurumi And Elly's Excellent Adventure has updated, I mutter "Die in a fire" under my breath instead of clicking on it.

I like mocking characters as much as I like writing them seriously, you know.

And ;_;
Someone deleted a somewhat derogatory comment you made in that topic, by the way. I have no idea who, which bothers me somewhat, because I want to accept all feedback, good or bad.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on December 23, 2009, 07:26:27 am
This is just wild theory territory, but somehow I think what Nue tells us about herself can't really be trusted, as though she's trying to hide something.  I mean, just look at her name for a second.  "Nue Houjuu".  The name of her species, and "sealed beast".  It sounds way too much like a pseudonym to me...
Plus we have the fact Nue tells some characters that the form we fight her in is her true form, yet for others she implies its just another disguise.

Its hard to say which is accurate, but I'm guessing probably the latter since part of her schtick is making people have to guess at what her true form is and true powers are.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: nintendonut888 on December 23, 2009, 07:31:10 am
Err, I'm pretty certain Nue's form in UFO extra is her true form. Her whole reason for wanting to murder the heroine is because they might spread the word that she's just a midget loli with some serious zettai ryouiki going on.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Grand Octopus on December 23, 2009, 12:11:32 pm
This is just wild theory territory, but somehow I think what Nue tells us about herself can't really be trusted, as though she's trying to hide something.

I actually share this sentiment, as the discrepancies between her profile and her dialogue are too significant for them both to be completely correct. Given that character profiles are basically ZUN telling us about the character, I'm more inclined to believe them than anything Nue herself says.

Plus we have the fact Nue tells some characters that the form we fight her in is her true form, yet for others she implies its just another disguise.

Its hard to say which is accurate, but I'm guessing probably the latter since part of her schtick is making people have to guess at what her true form is and true powers are.

My gut tells me that her UFO Extra form is her true form, going primarily on the balance of dialogues (Reimu A/B & Marisa A/B vs Sanae A). Then again, I've just said that Nue's words aren't necessarily trustworthy, so eh.

Aside from that, though, yeah, Nue has very few good qualities aside from having the nicest legs in UFO. That's what makes her interesting, though; where's the fun and unpredictability in a perfect character?

Your thoughts are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: shadowbringer on December 23, 2009, 04:33:19 pm
My vote is that Keine manipulated the course of history so that Yukari would manipulate Koishi into becoming bored enough to subconsciously manipulate Parsee to cause jealousy on Nue, who uses her pretext of being jealous of youkai siding with humans to hide her true motivations.. which is.. she's really jealous of youkai siding with humans.

Meanwhile, Cirno was watching Keine's movements with caution, and sent her friend Daiyousei to investigate the outside world, since there were enough clues that the humans from the outside world have actually received technology, speeding up their development and thus, forcing Kanako to move to Gensokyo earlier. Who could benefit from this? The Kappa? The Tengu? Shinki? The lunarians? Eirin?

On an early morning, Akyu received an uncommon visitor at her home. Komachi has reported on the various activities during the previous incidents, and brought confidential information from the Scarlet Devil Mansion and the domains of hell. Akyu has then become able to confirm that Remilia's purpose for staying in Gensokyo was to measure the military powers of its inhabitants, under the orders of the lunarians. Komachi also reported that Sakuya was murdered, around one year ago, and replaced by an imposter, because there were other people that were suspicious of Remilia, and wanted to keep an eye on her. But, who could've murdered Sakuya, and/or have replaced her? Yumeko? Sanae? Yumemi? Patchouli?

There were many possibilities; The three fairies were mysteriously absent from every major incident, or so, they are thought to be. Orange, a long-time enemy of Rumia, who was known as the Dragonslayer back then, hasn't been seen since LLS as well. The two humans from the Outside World may have been given the means to persuade Yumemi to travel in time and inform the humans from some 1000 years ago about Byakuren saving the youkai, which resulted in her sealing. Kourin may have been responsible for the database disorder that resulted in Reimu and company having harassed Makai in MS, but why? The fact that Vivit was able to meet Marisa and Reimu and defeat them could mean that Luize not only had the means to bring her where she wanted her to be and when, but had a hand in the events of Shuusou Gyoku as well, and even in the creation of Vivit herself?

Sprites has manipulated Dark Ran into trying to overthrow Marion as the main character of the Gunbird series, and by sending Marion's pet to the Moon, Dark Ran effectively made Marion go away for a while. This has made the lunarians become worried about a possible invasion attempt from the Earth, and therefore caused the incident shown in IN. Since Keine's abilities of history consumption weren't working during that incident, Sprites could invade Marisa's house and steal her discoveries on the immortality elixir that Marisa was trying to improve.. or compress.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on December 23, 2009, 05:58:01 pm
I like mocking characters as much as I like writing them seriously, you know.

And ;_;
Someone deleted a somewhat derogatory comment you made in that topic, by the way. I have no idea who, which bothers me somewhat, because I want to accept all feedback, good or bad.

Which is precisely why I'd rather mutter "die in a fire" than read it. :)

And, um, I'm pretty sure it was me who deleted it, figuring that dropping an F-bomb wouldn't stop you, and would only serve to annoy people who do like that kind of crap.
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: Nobu on December 23, 2009, 07:16:52 pm
Err, I'm pretty certain Nue's form in UFO extra is her true form. Her whole reason for wanting to murder the heroine is because they might spread the word that she's just a midget loli with some serious zettai ryouiki going on.

:3

Yeah, I like this explanation. :V
Title: Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
Post by: innocentlunaticeyes on March 19, 2011, 11:23:37 pm
Quote
She loves every living being, huh?
Well then, she could as well be Youkai Nelson Mandela, Youkai Mother Theresa, Youkai Pope Paul II, Youkai Buddha, Youkai God, etc. etc.........
......or simply an intelligent and compassionate person.
[/s]
...i think i love you xDDD

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