Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 06:26:21 AM

Title: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 06:26:21 AM
Dear god is this game addicting! What's the general consensus on this game? I know most people find it very difficult among the series (speaking of which is there no difficulty setting?), but how fun do most people think it is? I've only played until stage 4 (beat Reisen's first spellcard I mean), and then stopped, didn't see the next one, but it's a blast so far.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Sen on November 22, 2009, 06:35:22 AM
StB is pretty much one of the most difficult things in the series. There's no difficulty settings, it's just a long rollercoaster of pain and death.

I myself don't find it that fun, but it really is great for improving. You're forced into making strategies to tackle individual cards, and with Aya's movement speed, you learn precision control a lot faster than you would in the normal shooters.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Chaore on November 22, 2009, 06:38:24 AM
OM NOM NOM NOM BULLETS.

... :V . General feeling of STB. Yes it is ridiculously fun for how gimmicky it really is, and theres no difficulty setting because it really couldn't get any harder.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 22, 2009, 06:42:17 AM
StB is one of those games that while being part of the same genre breaks from the mold, making a pretty fun experience.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: theshirn on November 22, 2009, 06:47:56 AM
StB is the least fun I've had playing a game in years.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Polaris on November 22, 2009, 06:48:49 AM
I find it fun enough to want a sequel. :P
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Azinth on November 22, 2009, 06:54:01 AM
It's a really cool concept, but it's not my thing.  Call me a traditionalist, but I like my shmups to be in the form of actual stages with varied types of patterns, enemy configurations, etc.  Grinding the same pattern dozens of times until you finally get it doesn't really appeal to me, but I can see why people would like it.  It's much more 'pick up and play' than the rest of the Touhou games I suppose.

That being said, 9-6 is one of the coolest attacks ZUN has ever designed by far.  No, seriously, I could just play that thing all day, it's so fun.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 22, 2009, 07:06:02 AM
Quote from: DuskTape on November 22, 2009, 06:48:49 AM
I find it fun enough to want a sequel. :P
Newspaper Extra 1.
Makes me want to cry every time I select it ;_;
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Aisha on November 22, 2009, 07:14:15 AM
I would say that StB is ZUN's most creative game to date. He takes the genre and does something completely original with it. But yeah, it's pretty difficult; a few scenes took me over 1000 attempts to clear. Given the game's structure, it's pretty easy to sit there and keep trying over and over again. Like a slot machine addiction, or something.

Quote from: Azinth on November 22, 2009, 06:54:01 AM
That being said, 9-6 is one of the coolest attacks ZUN has ever designed by far.  No, seriously, I could just play that thing all day, it's so fun.

I could too; 9-6 is one of my favorites.

Quote from: Hizengar Byakuren on November 22, 2009, 07:06:02 AM
Newspaper Extra 1.
Makes me want to cry every time I select it ;_;

It would be nice if he went back to StB from time to time and updated it with new characters. He has three games' worth of new faces now. If I'm correct in assuming that he is taking a break this year, it would be a good time to do it, I would think.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Drake on November 22, 2009, 07:19:51 AM
Quote from: Azinth on November 22, 2009, 06:54:01 AM
That being said, 9-6 is one of the coolest attacks ZUN has ever designed by far.  No, seriously, I could just play that thing all day, it's so fun.
you mean silver dragon-esque card of ultimate pain and random bullshit
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Tengukami on November 22, 2009, 07:26:47 AM
It's a hell of a lot of fun, and very addicitve. I think the difficulty of the game is countered by a number of factors:

1. You pretty much have endless lives. You're not going to have to start from 1-1 if you die in 8-3.
2. The camera can be used offensively and defensively - for capping bosses and clearing bullets. Your camera charges faster after you clear bullets, and you can do that as often as you like before the time runs out, so in a way you have endless "bombs" too.
3. Zoooooom!

Plus playing it regularly has helped my overall Touhou gameplay. It's a truly unique, inventive game.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Rook on November 22, 2009, 07:40:47 AM
Guess :V

I see Shoot the Bullet as ZUN doing what he excels at: making beautiful and interesting patterns.  Due to the structure of the game, there can be more unintuitive cards that require a creative approach to capture.  A card like even 2-5 could never show up in, say, PCB, outside the extra stages.

I've only played three Touhou games: PCB, StB, and now SA.  And playing through SA, it's amazing how much more creative ZUN has gotten with bullet patterns; bosses tend to move all over the place, and the game seems to demand more versatility.  Perhaps I'm talking out my ass due to limited experience, or perhaps I'm caught in the comparison between old familiar danmaku and new shiny danmaku, but I do think there's a noticeable difference over the years, and I think Shoot the Bullet's experimental patterns have a lot to do with that.

I mean, some of the levels may be frustrating as hell (I still don't know where I'm going to get more successes, except perhaps from 5-1 or various Sakuya nonsense), but most of them are interesting.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Laughing Bird on November 22, 2009, 07:42:17 AM
I can't tell if playing Shoot the Bullet is improving my skill or wrecking my judgement. But it sure is addictive. And hard.

It's good in that you can just sit down for a few minutes, and try to cap a few patterns.
Rarely ever turns out that way =(

Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Formless God on November 22, 2009, 08:00:52 AM
As I've said before, it's like doing Lunatic Pacifist runs :P . Too bad you have to clear the first waves to get to the interesting parts X_X
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 08:38:59 AM
ok I'm not impressed with Patchy's unfolding sphere spellcard thingie, that stage is basically just a memorization puzzle. boo.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Garlyle on November 22, 2009, 09:19:10 AM
There are two difficulty settings for StB: "Play to capture" and "Play for score"

Playing just to beat a lot of cards is way, WAY easier than trying to stay up close, waiting for Nice Shot chances, etc. @_@

Also, there is no set difficulty... but overall it goes from Easy (Set 1 & 2) to Normal (3 & 4) to Hard (5 - 7/8) and Lunatic (9 on), with stages varying up or down a bit on occasion (5-5, I think it was, was utter bullcrap, but there was one stage 9 or 10 card I captured in about ten tries...)
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Zengeku on November 22, 2009, 09:20:47 AM
I consider it a huge collection of last word spellcards. It can be quite a fun game actually. The only beef i have with it is that Aya's way too fast at times.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 10:07:58 AM
Quote from: Zengeku on November 22, 2009, 09:20:47 AM
I consider it a huge collection of last word spellcards. It can be quite a fun game actually. The only beef i have with it is that Aya's way too fast at times.

Yeah, I frequently kill myself by zooming further than I'm used to when I let go of focus mode. ugh. It was especially annoying for medicine stages. I think it's medicine. The doll girl with clouds that make you move slow.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Tengukami on November 22, 2009, 03:40:05 PM
Yeah, that's Medicine. Aya's speed is actually an advantage. You can still microtap when focused, but with some of those patterns, you need to get out of the way fast, faster than Reimu could move anyway.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: theshim on November 22, 2009, 06:47:56 AM
StB is the least fun I've had playing a game in years.
*brofist*
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: ebarrett on November 22, 2009, 07:44:16 PM
Quote from: DuskTape on November 22, 2009, 06:48:49 AM
I find it fun enough to want a sequel. :P
+1

I remember seeing a replay of BoWaP and thinking, that is completely impossible - turns out StB forces you to become a better player. I didn't know streaming until hitting a brickwall at Straw Doll Kamikaze.

I should really run through it again for score, now that I think about it.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: ?q on November 23, 2009, 12:55:13 AM
I love Shoot the Bullet and hope that TH 12.7 will be a sequel (there are enough characters to do it again now).  (Or has that slot already been taken?  I'm behind the times.)
The scoring system is kind of fuzzy tbh, but playing for score is still fun.

Quote
I see Shoot the Bullet as ZUN doing what he excels at: making beautiful and interesting patterns.  Due to the structure of the game, there can be more unintuitive cards that require a creative approach to capture.  A card like even 2-5 could never show up in, say, PCB, outside the extra stages.
This.

The only problem with a sequel to Shoot the Bullet is that Murasa and Ichirin are very likely to share the same stage for impossible s-s-s-slowdown lag RAGE.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 23, 2009, 12:57:16 AM
Sadly, I hear ZUN never completed Newspaper Extra 1 because he felt "it was time to move on." :( As for me, I love StB as well. I didn't play it for months simply because I didn't like Aya, but oh man did I regret that action when I finally picked it up.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: skutieos on November 23, 2009, 02:21:42 AM
I think its pretty fun, but eventually I hit a road block and couldn't progress.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 23, 2009, 02:46:07 AM
I like the game, but I don't play it too often. The last time I played, I got level 9 unlocked and managed to clear one of the cards from it.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: ?q on November 23, 2009, 02:49:07 AM
Quote from: skutieos on November 23, 2009, 02:21:42 AM
I think its pretty fun, but eventually I hit a road block and couldn't progress.
You'll do this from time to time.  When you get better, you can come back and clear things you couldn't do before.  It's really nice as a benchmark.

Also, Flandre's cards are just as bad in StB as they are in EoSD :V
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Bananamatic on November 23, 2009, 05:10:21 AM
Quote from: u? on November 23, 2009, 02:49:07 AM
Also, Flandre's cards are just as bad in StB as they are in EoSD :V
now with the worst shottype in the universe
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:32:50 AM
I watched a video, and it doesn't seem to do this. But when I try I die. But is ran's final spellcard's final "hitpoint" SUPPOSED to kill you if you're in charge focus mode? I mean, I don't stop moving right, but if I'm in charge focus mode while I'm moving, he WILL hit me. Which is a big problem because by that point the screen is cluttered so badly he HAS to die in seconds or else game over. Or is that just bad luck?
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: DgBarca on November 23, 2009, 09:46:17 AM
Quote from: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:32:50 AM
I watched a video, and it doesn't seem to do this. But when I try I die. But is ran's final spellcard's final "hitpoint" SUPPOSED to kill you if you're in charge focus mode? I mean, I don't stop moving right, but if I'm in charge focus mode while I'm moving, he WILL hit me. Which is a big problem because by that point the screen is cluttered so badly he HAS to die in seconds or else game over. Or is that just bad luck?
Quote from: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:32:50 AM
he WILL hit me.
Quote from: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:32:50 AM
he

>=(
Normally not, but I never reached the last photo :(
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 23, 2009, 09:48:31 AM
Ran's last shot in 8-8 is luck based essentially. It's not that Ran will ever hit you herself, but she may very well spawn bullets on top of you. All you can really do is hope that doesn't happen.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 23, 2009, 12:12:11 PM
Whyyyy?

3-6 is giving me so much rage right now. RAWR. It's not that I don't get how to do it, it's that I can't ever seem to.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: ebarrett on November 23, 2009, 12:28:59 PM
Quote from: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:32:50 AM
I watched a video, and it doesn't seem to do this. But when I try I die. But is ran's final spellcard's final "hitpoint" SUPPOSED to kill you if you're in charge focus mode? I mean, I don't stop moving right, but if I'm in charge focus mode while I'm moving, he WILL hit me. Which is a big problem because by that point the screen is cluttered so badly he HAS to die in seconds or else game over. Or is that just bad luck?

You probably already know this, but in case you don't: focus-charge as much as you can and "untap" to dodge unfocused for a split-second when she's about to ram you. If you don't ram a butterfly yourself, there should be just enough time to charge the camera quickly enough to get the last picture when you get cornered and about to get rammed with nowhere else to go.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: DgBarca on November 23, 2009, 09:46:17 AM
>=(

Lol, I haven't done that for some time. I blame Ran's name, it's a boy's name damnit.

Anyway:

Quote
You probably already know this, but in case you don't: focus-charge as much as you can and "untap" to dodge unfocused for a split-second when she's about to ram you. If you don't ram a butterfly yourself, there should be just enough time to charge the camera quickly enough to get the last picture when you get cornered and about to get rammed with nowhere else to go.

Yeah I know, except I find that doing that in rapid sucession doesn't speed up your charge time at all, in which case I'll get cornered before I can take that last shot. I think what Nintendonut said is the likely candidate. That I don't actually get nailed by ran, but by a butterfly spawning on top of me. sigh.

Alot of these cards are difficult and fun. But some are just ugh. I really hated sakuya's spellcard where you absolutely must be charging the whole time or else  you can't save yourself from her timestop circle-knives thingie. Sometimes, you just HAVE to let go of focus charge to get out of a spam of knives heading in your direction, which is just dumb.

Quote
3-6 is giving me so much rage right now. RAWR. It's not that I don't get how to do it, it's that I can't ever seem to.

Well, there isn't exactly a "right" way to do it, so imma say it anyway just in case you haven't tried. But it's much much much easier if you are on one side and not in the middle. straight under one of the orbs is best IMO. Maybe inch closer to the boss slightly slowly as you near the end or else you'll find yourself unable to move up to him to take a shot later on due to lasers surrounding you the whole time (they do that less as you're more in the middle). And don't forget arrowhead bullets have deceptively small hitboxes.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Arcengal on November 23, 2009, 10:35:21 PM
Quote from: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:59:45 PM
Alot of these cards are difficult and fun. But some are just ugh. I really hated sakuya's spellcard where you absolutely must be charging the whole time or else  you can't save yourself from her timestop circle-knives thingie. Sometimes, you just HAVE to let go of focus charge to get out of a spam of knives heading in your direction, which is just dumb.

Not as bad as Sakuya freezing time to move out of your picture frame unless you time it just right.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Bananamatic on November 24, 2009, 12:02:05 AM
I've tried StB again.

I can't do 4-1.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 24, 2009, 12:16:49 AM
Just did 4-1 a second time. Almost ended up as a timeout as well. Took me a few tries to get it again even knowing what to do.

For this one, you're going to want to stay near the bottom right. Bottom left might work too, but I didn't try it.

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6118

Captured a second level 9 card. Just 1 more to unlock level 10, or 5 captures elsewhere.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 09:35:25 AM
Pwnt ran's final spellcard finally, yeah was just unlucky with it after all. go figure.

I'm stuck on 9-2 now. only attempted 20 times or so, but haven't managed to get past 3 shots once. I think this is the point where my skill just isn't enough to go on. I really don't see myself beating that one, and it certainly doesn't look like a card with any "tricks" to it. gah. 9-2 the "brick wall" for anybody else?
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: LHCling on November 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AM
Did it just then. 62 Scenes get!

Circle around, take photos. Charging is recommended in the top corner opposite to where you take the photo. Note that I have a tendency to score. So if you're aiming just for clears, you don't have to get "ridiculously" close like I do
.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Tengukami on November 24, 2009, 12:14:27 PM
Quote from: Baity on November 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AM
So if you're aiming just for clears, you don't have to get "ridiculously" close like I do
.

Yep, that's me. My goal is to get clears. I reckon Aya would be disappointed in my lack of ambition to get really great photos, but I think I can live with that.

And congratulations!
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 08:48:36 PM
Quote from: Baity on November 24, 2009, 09:58:10 AM
Did it just then. 62 Scenes get!

Circle around, take photos. Charging is recommended in the top corner opposite to where you take the photo. Note that I have a tendency to score. So if you're aiming just for clears, you don't have to get "ridiculously" close like I do
.

....Wow, thanks, I totally assumed those bullets just kinda flew all over. Didn't realize they still aimed AROUND your direction for the most part.  Your way makes it *soooo* much easier =)
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6131.

Watching your replay taught me a bit more than you said too. Kaguya moves towards your position all the time, you want to take pictures on the same side of the screen that she's currently favoring, and charge on the opposite. You did this, she was on the right side pretty much the whole time for you though. I didn't dodge so cleanly near the end, and ended up having her move from the right to the left, so I reversed my direction. I'm positive it saved my life at the end >=)
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: RainfallYoshi on November 24, 2009, 09:31:43 PM
Quote from: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:59:45 PM
Well, there isn't exactly a "right" way to do it, so imma say it anyway just in case you haven't tried. But it's much much much easier if you are on one side and not in the middle. straight under one of the orbs is best IMO. Maybe inch closer to the boss slightly slowly as you near the end or else you'll find yourself unable to move up to him to take a shot later on due to lasers surrounding you the whole time (they do that less as you're more in the middle). And don't forget arrowhead bullets have deceptively small hitboxes.

Thanks a ton for that Ghaleon! That did the trick. <3

Now I'm stuck on basically everything in Scene 5 except 5-2. The game is getting freaking hard now. =(
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 09:46:07 PM
Ok seriously. fux 9-6. it's not even hard. it just keeps killing me because I make stupid stupid STUPID mistakes.. like taking a picture when I'm nowhere near kaguya and I don't need to clear any bullets, or letting go of shift while micrododing (REAL SMART with Aya). AGH.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Azinth on November 24, 2009, 10:24:51 PM
Quote from: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 09:46:07 PM
Ok seriously. fux 9-6. it's not even hard.

Have you gotten to the last three pictures yet? >.>
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 10:37:16 PM
Quote from: Azinth on November 24, 2009, 10:24:51 PM
Have you gotten to the last three pictures yet? >.>

Yeah, the very last one like 5 times. Blue bullets shoot out starting with the 2nd last one I think. I only have to dodge like 1 wave of each color between shots though (2 waves of the first color for the first few shots though.
Make that blue then purple, could have sworn I reached the last shot multiple times before. Oh well, still making stupid mistakes.

Like when I die, I don't go "omgwtf was I supposed to do about that" or "omg cheap".. but "WTF was I thinking!? *smacks face*"

Edit:
FFS I really can't get it. I don't know why, check out this epic fail
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6134
I mean seriously. I should have been able to do this so many times but I keep getting fails like THAT.

Update:
See, I told you it was easy. only took me 1171 attempts. only triple my worst card previous
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 25, 2009, 09:14:20 AM
Ok, so well, 10-1 was insane hard until I figured out you circle around her up close. Then the last 2 shots are zomgwtf. But it's only 2 shots. So I just kept at it until I got lucky and beat it. Now I'm stuck at 10-2. And I'd really like some advice/opinions on this one. I'm not sure if advice can help me or not.

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6145

There is simply no way my fingers can respond to those course changes that fast, are they supposed to? I don't think any amount of shooting game practice will EVER allow me to maneuver thru that as needed. am I just doing something wrong? Here's a replay, this is as far as I can get (4 shots)

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6145

If you don't want to watch, I basically figured out that if I stay in the exact center of the paths, I don't have to react to anything except the aimed shots at the end for the first 3 shots. For the 4th, I have to do the same thing only in a corner (which would work for the first 3 as well but that's besides the point) because the distance from the boss is further there. Unfortunately, after that, from what I can tell. You simply HAVE to move with the path.

I just can't see my hand-eye coordination ever being that fast and accurate. So I'd really like some input on this...Or is there some kinda trick that I'm not aware of?
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: LHCling on November 25, 2009, 09:49:09 AM
Quote
Scene 10-2
90% luck, 10% "skill". The "skill" factor is just misdirecting the bullets properly. Replay (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6126) that may or may not help demonstrate this.
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: Ghaleon on November 25, 2009, 09:56:39 AM
Quote from: Baity on November 25, 2009, 09:49:09 AM
90% luck, 10% "skill". The "skill" factor is just misdirecting the bullets properly. Replay (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6126) that may or may not help demonstrate this.

Wonderful...Thanks I guess. Looks like another 1000+ attempt stage for me >=P
Title: Re: I've finally tried shoot the bullet just now
Post by: ebarrett on November 26, 2009, 12:44:10 AM
Quote from: Baity on November 25, 2009, 09:49:09 AM
90% luck, 10% "skill". The "skill" factor is just misdirecting the bullets properly. Replay (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6126) that may or may not help demonstrate this.

There's also the cowardly way, where you go to the sides and take the pictures as soon as you can so you don't have to dodge the harder parts of the waves. Here's an old replay (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=6159).