Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Ai-chann on November 13, 2009, 12:32:51 PM

Title: Hardest Version?
Post by: Ai-chann on November 13, 2009, 12:32:51 PM
So I was playing EoSD for the first time ever, and I must say, that version is pretty unforgiving.

What do you think is the most difficult version of Touhou?   :)
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: NeoSere on November 13, 2009, 12:39:23 PM
UFO Lunatic

SA overall though is pretty unforgiving(You died, so now you get less extra lives too!), with UFO its only the high difficulties. PoFV Lunatic Match Mode is insane, too. It never gets hit  :'(
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Formless God on November 13, 2009, 12:43:14 PM
SA is the hardest.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Ai-chann on November 13, 2009, 12:47:48 PM
I agree that SA is pretty damn tough.  That extra life thing is complete junk.  The game is probably laughing as you die.  :(
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 13, 2009, 01:03:16 PM
They're all around the same difficulty for me (currently). It might because of the "skewed" amount of practice that I've had though (e.g. more on SA and UFO, less on PCB and IN).

That being said, I'm going to say that EoSD is the hardest.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 13, 2009, 01:14:56 PM
UFO.
SA is unforgivable, but everything is atleast remotely possible(and barely anything could be classed as bullshit) even on lunatic.

UFO just says fuck that and throws rapewalls from st2 on.
Cloudy Way in Purple. What the hell.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: lmagus on November 13, 2009, 01:35:02 PM
Easy - PCB
Normal - SA
Hard and Lunatic - UFO
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Ai-chann on November 13, 2009, 01:57:46 PM
I always though IN was easier than PCP.  But I only play on Easy right now, so I guess there's a difference.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 13, 2009, 09:14:09 PM
I honestly think UFO's difficulty is overrated. Probably because its new and therefore don't have as much practice with it as much other games. I'd say SA is probably hardest of the lot.

This is going over the fact Yamame, Parsee, and Yuugi completely tear me apart on hard and lunatic far worse than Nazrin, Kogasa, and Ichirin (though rest assured they tear me apart plenty, too... the SA crew just does it worse, especially since I can't get resources anywhere near as easy in SA as UFO). Can't comment past that since I can never seem to reach the stage 4 bosses.

For easiest people keep telling me IN, but honestly, I always found PCB easier. If you can manipulate supernatural borders you effectively get free bombs pretty often (and this is someone who uses Marisa, who has horrific cherry point gain).
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Esoterica on November 13, 2009, 09:17:15 PM
UFO by far, with SA in second (though I've finally gotten SA to the point where it won't completely tear me apart if I'm playing as any of the Reimu shot types (on normal)).
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 13, 2009, 09:18:11 PM
SoEW.
Bullshit hitbox detection is bullshit.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 13, 2009, 09:45:50 PM
SoEW.
Bullshit hitbox detection is bullshit.
Wait, I think I should change my vote to this.

Its hard to collect power-ups in SoEW since they have to touch your hitbox and not your sprite, not to mention bombs don't activate the moment you hit the button...
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Garlyle on November 13, 2009, 10:11:22 PM
SoEW would be worth a mention, but even on Lunatic, very few patterns are actually dangerous.

SoEW is the one game I've 1cc'd Lunatic on.  Mind you it was the remake (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_eQRJOO-hE), but that "Hard" mode is equal to SoEW's Lunatic.  The only real change gameplaywise was Focus being present and a new shot type - outside of that it was still wonky hitboxes and stuff.

EoSD is potential cruel due to huge randomness, but SA and UFO are hard as hell by design, on Hard and esp. Lunatic.
However, SA gives you lives as you go with a minimum of extra danger.  You can rack up more lives in UFO, but you'll often be putting yourself at serious risk to do so.  And even though UFO's bombs are better, you don't get as many.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Sen on November 13, 2009, 10:16:13 PM
(and this is someone who uses Marisa, who has horrific cherry point gain).

I certainly hope you're talking about MarisaB there, because MarisaA has the best Cherry gain in the game IIRC :V

I always though IN was easier than PCP.  But I only play on Easy right now, so I guess there's a difference.

In all honesty, even if you can only play on Easy, do not play IN on Easy. IN Easy has almost nothing onscreen the entire time.

It's very simple to 1cc the game, but you won't get any better. Even though it's difficult, try playing on Normal. You'll improve through IN Normal much faster than you would IN Easy. Easy Mode is meant to warm you up to the rest of the series, and IN's does not do that. The others do! By all means, play Easy on the others, but don't bother with IN Easy.


Aaaaaaaanyway, I'll go with the general consensus and say UFO on the higher difficulties. SA I think has the hardest Normal mode, but it's never really "unfair," just difficult. UFO, especially on higher difficulties, is most definitely "unfair," and EoSD's rank system can seriously screw you over.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 13, 2009, 10:30:14 PM
I don't get it. How can ANYONE say that SA is harder than UFO? The only way you are going to lose an extra life in SA is if you die five times against attacks that gives life stars. If you die five times in UFO against a boss, you'll have all your power drained and only three lives left at best. And at that point you are off to harvest some more lives... which can fail as well.

SA does things a hell of a lot better in my opinion because you don't need to work for the extra lives. You just need to do well at the bosses i.e not die. In UFO you are gonna have to memorize strategies for UFO summoning and what not. And let's not forget annoying cases in which the red UFO you desperately need will flippantly fly off screen or just into a bullet hell.

Add to that the fact that UFO have absolutely RAPE spellcards as Bananamatic also mentions.
I'd say that pretty much anything Kogasa have is way too hard for a stage 2 boss. The second boss-card being absolutely unacceptable.

Ichirin have the merciless first bosscard which can and will molest you into a world of despair if you don't bomb it or get lucky and everything else she have is also very difficult. Though most Stage 3 bosses have a certain level of difficulty.

Murasa have four spellcards and three non-spells. The non-spells are okay and so are the first and second card but the third one also strikes me as absolute bullshit. If i'm not getting hit by the debris or the bullets that are spawned by the debris i'm hit by the pattern that follows onward. That attack is risk factor major. The final card is not that bad though.

Shou is an evil girl. Her laser non-spells are murderous and her spellcards are all very difficult. I'm not complaing too much about the spells though. They are okay. Aside from Vajra that is. My gripe lies with her non-spells. Aside from the 3rd one which can be quite entertaining, her non-spells are unforgiving bullshit.

Byakuren = Super hard spellcards en masse. Her first one is very difficult and it feels like it behaves differently leading me to the conclusion that its relatively easy 1 of 3 times but the rest you have to be very lucky. Her second is memorization. The third is rather managable. The fourth is easy if we compare it to the MS version but its still a hard card. SC5 is micromemorizable as far as i can see and SC6 is a spellcard i personally think to be harder than VoWG when VoWG doesn't spam walls.

Just put  it like this: SA Stage 1, 2 and 3 are a breeze. SA is easier. And much better IMO.

In all honesty, even if you can only play on Easy, do not play IN on Easy. IN Easy has almost nothing onscreen the entire time.

It's very simple to 1cc the game, but you won't get any better. Even though it's difficult, try playing on Normal. You'll improve through IN Normal much faster than you would IN Easy. Easy Mode is meant to warm you up to the rest of the series, and IN's does not do that. The others do! By all means, play Easy on the others, but don't bother with IN Easy.

I remember beating IN easy when i first touched the series using all continues. I really sucked...
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: CK Crash on November 13, 2009, 11:05:45 PM
SA is notorious for having a huge Easy->Normal difficulty jump, which I can attest to (I was an Easy mode player when SA came out, and I beat IN Hard and Phantasm before SA Normal).


@Zengeku
I play Normal/Hard, so if you're playing Lunatic, my opinions may not apply, but I still feel SA is harder to 1CC for the average player.

Quote from: Zengeku
I don't get it. How can ANYONE say that SA is harder than UFO? The only way you are going to lose an extra life in SA is if you die five times against attacks that gives life stars. If you die five times in UFO against a boss, you'll have all your power drained and only three lives left at best. And at that point you are off to harvest some more lives... which can fail as well.
How is this different from SA? If you died 5 times in SA, you'd probably be even worse off unless you're at stage 6 after doing a perfect run of everything else. Yes, it is harsher with power following deaths, but you can bomb freely without using it now, so I think it is still even overall.

Quote from: Zengeku
Add to that the fact that UFO have absolutely RAPE spellcards as Bananamatic also mentions.
Yes, some individual spellcards are harder, but at least your bombs do actual damage in UFO. At least it is possible to stockpile 8 bombs and not have to worry about your power going away when using them. In SA, when using Reimu A at least, it can take 2 bombs to clear a spell even if you manage to survive a few seconds in, and 3 of the other bombs do negligible damage if any at all. When you encounter a must-bomb card, you're left with half power at best for the rest of the boss.

If you're going for a perfect no death/no bomb run, SA may be easier, but this doesn't represent the majority of players. The UFO system does require actual effort to take advantage of, but it offers the most potential resources, which makes the task of 1CCing UFO much easier.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Sodium on November 13, 2009, 11:26:14 PM
SA Stage 1-3 are absolutely lol though. Stage 1 is hard, but it's just stage 1 where you can restart until you get it right. Stage 2 is hilarious. Stage 3 is micromemorizable, minus the last two cards where one is moderately hard, and the other is lol(some clipdeath). Stage 4's stage portion isn't that hard, and then Satori is hard. Stage 5's first half isn't too bad, then it goes to hell starting at midboss Orin. Then Stage 6 is hilarious, and Okuu gets easier as you go a long.

Basically, most of SA is actually pretty easy assuming you don't mess up.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Tinari on November 13, 2009, 11:35:28 PM
Basically, most of SA is actually pretty easy assuming you don't mess up.

Can't that logic be applied to every single Touhou game?  They're easy assuming you don't mess up?  Isn't messing up what causes people to lose?
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Esoterica on November 13, 2009, 11:36:40 PM
Can't that logic be applied to every single Touhou game?  They're easy assuming you don't mess up?  Isn't messing up what causes people to lose?
If you're going to pull that angle on him, it'd apply to more games than just Touhou. :V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Garlyle on November 13, 2009, 11:43:57 PM
Quote
The UFO system does require actual effort to take advantage of, but it offers the most potential resources, which makes the task of 1CCing UFO much easier.
This would be the case, but to get anywhere near that large potential involves rushing into bullets or even enemies sometimes.  It's not just effort, but huge risk.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Esoterica on November 13, 2009, 11:45:56 PM
This would be the case, but to get anywhere near that large potential involves rushing into bullets or even enemies sometimes.  It's not just effort, but huge risk.
Not to mention, if you die trying to break a UFO open you're losing overall in the end.  A life and an option isn't worth 1-2 life fragments or a bomb/bomb fragment.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Garlyle on November 13, 2009, 11:47:31 PM
Not to mention, if you die trying to break a UFO open you're losing overall in the end.  A life and an option isn't worth 1-2 life fragments or a bomb/bomb fragment.

And this is precisely why I -can't- 1cc UFO Hard T.T
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 13, 2009, 11:50:13 PM
Hint: Bomb to chain UFOs. You're getting a net gain of resources if you do it right.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Garlyle on November 13, 2009, 11:53:44 PM
Hint: Bomb to chain UFOs. You're getting a net gain of resources if you do it right.

I play Marisa A 8D
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Esoterica on November 13, 2009, 11:56:31 PM
Hint: Bomb to chain UFOs. You're getting a net gain of resources if you do it right.
This does work, yes.  The gain just isn't significant.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 13, 2009, 11:56:56 PM
I'd say overall UFO lunatic is the hardest, but only in terms of danmaku without taking into consideration the bombing or the obscene amount of lives you can get. The game is basically EoSD on crack: EoSD has all but trivial stages but nasty bosses. UFO has stages that are definitely not trivial but nothing compared to the bosses. In terms of survival I've always found SA to be hardest.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 14, 2009, 12:07:40 AM
I play Marisa A 8D
I played as MarisaA and I can still do it quite proficiently.

This does work, yes.  The gain just isn't significant.
The gain is significant overall. Obviously, there are spots where you don't need to bomb at all  :V

Don't forget that the (mid-)bosses also give out fragments. And a full Extend!
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Garlyle on November 14, 2009, 12:13:24 AM
I played as MarisaA and I can still do it quite proficiently.

The gain is significant overall. Obviously, there are spots where you don't need to bomb at all  :V

Don't forget that the (mid-)bosses also give out fragments. And a full Extend!

1. I would like to see this done sometime then
2. That Extend is a goddamn trap.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 14, 2009, 12:14:29 AM
I'd say overall UFO lunatic is the hardest, but only in terms of danmaku without taking into consideration the bombing or the obscene amount of lives you can get. The game is basically EoSD on crack: EoSD has all but trivial stages but nasty bosses. UFO has stages that are definitely not trivial but nothing compared to the bosses. In terms of survival I've always found SA to be hardest.
What makes SA acceptable is the 40% pacifistable stage 5 and a completely pathetic final boss.
Hell, I'm a hard player and I've almost captured all of her cards on lunatic in one run on my 20th non serious attempt. Screwed up SS because I was way too wtf and died 3 times even though I can capture it around 50% of time.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Esoterica on November 14, 2009, 12:14:58 AM
The gain is significant overall. Obviously, there are spots where you don't need to bomb at all  :V
Obviously, I'm just saying it irritates me to no end when I'm trying to get a green UFO when I'm down to my last bomb, only to have to bomb and end up destroying it before it's full. :V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Iryan on November 14, 2009, 12:40:38 AM
Obviously, I'm just saying it irritates me to no end when I'm trying to get a green UFO when I'm down to my last bomb, only to have to bomb and end up destroying it before it's full. :V
And this is why MarisaB doesn't suck.  :V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Esoterica on November 14, 2009, 01:23:28 AM
And this is why MarisaB doesn't suck.  :V
This is also why I use her. :V

Well, that and I love spread types.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: c l e a r on November 14, 2009, 03:20:11 AM
I think people who argue that UFO is overrated is forgetting that the way you lose a shit load of power is worst, if not equal to SA.

In SA, you either die, or bomb and be weaker.
In UFO, you either die and be weaker, or bomb and need to chain a Green to get that bomb back.

I prefer the latter, at least after your power drops to 1.00 or lower, when you die, you can go back to 3.00 Power.  With UFO, it pretty just says fuck that, you are at 1.00 power and you are going to like it on your last life.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 14, 2009, 04:47:36 AM
What makes SA acceptable is [...] and a completely pathetic final boss.
Er... If that's the case could you please explain to me why I can barely even *REACH* normal mode Utsuho, and have trouble capturing anything not her first noncard and not called Ten Evil Stars (yes, including Hell's Artificial Sun), while I can capture roughly half of Normal mode Byakuren?

I know you say UFO isn't harder until hard/lunatic, but you (and apparently everyone but me) seems to think that that Utsuho is pathetic regardless of difficulty. Am I really so terrible that an 'effortless' boss is nearly impossible for me? T.T
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 14, 2009, 04:49:48 AM
I also find Utsuho difficult, even moreso than Orin, at least on Normal.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 14, 2009, 04:53:28 AM
I also find Utsuho difficult, even moreso than Orin, at least on Normal.
Orin's Thousand Needle Mountain and noncards are what give me most trouble. She is usually what ends my Normal mode 1CC's, but when using continues I've found Utsuho to be an even tougher wall to break through, so even if I got past her without continues there's no way I could beat Utsuho before my resources run out.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Sodium on November 14, 2009, 04:55:10 AM
Utsuho:
Opener: lol
First card: The suns are aimed. At Normal, there's only 1 sun fired at you every volley. This should be relatively easy to misdirect, and then dodge.
Second AP: On normal, this shouldn't be too bad. Still a bit tricky
Second card: Just dodge. =V
Third AP: lol
Third card: lolsafeheight
Fourth AP: Second AP but easier! wow
Fourth card: Hard version is easier, so yeah. Still, not too bad
Last card: LOL. Just don't panic, and you shouldn't stay that close to the bottom.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 14, 2009, 04:58:55 AM
Final card, time it out if you have a lot of lives, it's safer than beating it normally.

I've 1cc'd Normal with ReimuA, but Utsuho ends my ReimuB attempts. I at least have the stage unlocked for practice due to cheaping out and timing it out unlike my ReimuA 1cc where I went into the final card with several lives and still nearly messed up. MarisaA, I can't even get to Utsuho. And I do much worse with ReimuC, MarisaB. Haven't really tried MarisaC much.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 14, 2009, 05:26:51 AM
First card: The suns are aimed. At Normal, there's only 1 sun fired at you every volley. This should be relatively easy to misdirect, and then dodge.
Its not the suns that's the issue, those are easy. Its the blue balls that get me.
Quote
Second AP: On normal, this shouldn't be too bad. Still a bit tricky
Its so tricky it garuntees death for me. >.>
Quote
Second card: Just dodge. =V
*garunteed death and loss of bombs until end*
Quote
Fourth AP: Second AP but easier! wow
Easier until the bubbles force you against a white puff bullet. >.>
Quote
Fourth card: Hard version is easier, so yeah. Still, not too bad
It is for me. >.>
Quote
Last card: LOL. Just don't panic, and you shouldn't stay that close to the bottom.
I've been doing that. Its the sudden shifts in gravity that keep throwing me off and sending me into bullets.
Quote
Final card, time it out if you have a lot of lives, it's safer than beating it normally.
If I had spare lives I could probably beat it, but I always arrive with 1... 2 if I'm lucky. T.T
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Krimmydoodle on November 14, 2009, 06:58:25 AM
Final card, time it out if you have a lot of lives, it's safer than beating it normally.

I disagree with that.  I find the easiest phase to be the second to last one (Utsuho has less than 25% HP and the timer is above 30 seconds), because it has the best balance of having a lower bullet density (for fewer random clipdeath screwups) and not being too ridiculously fast (like the final phase).  The two hardest phases are the first one, due to bullet density, and the last one (Utsuho has 0 HP, or the timer is below 30 seconds), due to speed.  That said, I would advocate shooting her constantly to get her HP down to the 25% required to trigger the "easy" phase, and once you've gone that far, there's no point in timing it out because you're going to have to a) last longer, b) face the hyperspeed phase.

Edit: bah, I just remembered that Subterranean Sun's firstfirst phase has no snowballs.  Still, not a fan of the high red bullet density for the firstfirst phase, or intentionally facing the hyperspeed phase.



In fact, the only final card I would recommend timing out (other than Resurrection Butterfly :P) is Hourai Jewel, since it's the only card that doesn't take an extra 90 seconds to time out as opposed to capturing, and its the only card whose survival strategy (left/right streaming, which I prefer) is vastly different from its efficient capture strategy (up/down streaming).
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Affinity on November 14, 2009, 07:04:35 AM
Quote
I've been doing that. Its the sudden shifts in gravity that keep throwing me off and sending me into bullets.

If you didn't already know, one thing you should note is that by not moving at all, you automatically avoid the red bullets.  So you shouldn't move unecessarily unless you are being pulled beyond 1/5 of the screen or avoiding the white bullets.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 14, 2009, 07:21:23 AM
If you didn't already know, one thing you should note is that by not moving at all, you automatically avoid the red bullets.  So you shouldn't move unecessarily unless you are being pulled beyond 1/5 of the screen or avoiding the white bullets.
I know that. The spell still gives me problems. >.<

Rest assured I already researched all the fine details to the card, from what I can figure the only issue is in the execution.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: The Greatest Dog on November 14, 2009, 09:17:58 AM
Without having played EoSD or MoF (Lol bomb) and only 1ccing PCB once, I will say that for a Normal player that SA should be the hardest.

But now that I've 1cc'd Subterranean Animism with all shot types on Normal, I'm willing to say that you just have to know when to bomb.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Alice Fact on November 14, 2009, 01:32:49 PM
In SA, you either die, or bomb and be weaker.
In UFO, you either die and be weaker, or bomb and need to chain a Green to get that bomb back.
in UFO you shouldn't die in the first place
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Ai-chann on November 14, 2009, 02:11:40 PM
In all honesty, even if you can only play on Easy, do not play IN on Easy. IN Easy has almost nothing onscreen the entire time.

It's very simple to 1cc the game, but you won't get any better. Even though it's difficult, try playing on Normal. You'll improve through IN Normal much faster than you would IN Easy. Easy Mode is meant to warm you up to the rest of the series, and IN's does not do that. The others do! By all means, play Easy on the others, but don't bother with IN Easy.

Thanks for the advice!  I'll start trying Normal mode, then.  I really, really like IN at the moment, and want to try mastering that version before doing any others.  :)
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: ?q on November 14, 2009, 02:21:07 PM
In fact, the only final card I would recommend timing out (other than Resurrection Butterfly :P) is Hourai Jewel, since it's the only one you will likely time out while trying to beat it anyway :P
Fixed.

UFO is harder than SA, but SA gives you weaker bombs and shot types to compensate.
On the plus side, Shou is much more entertaining than Orin.

@IN Easy being too easy:  Play it to unlock the appropriate spell cards, then try EoSD Easy.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 14, 2009, 03:41:18 PM
On the plus side, Shou is much more entertaining than Orin.

I am so offended by that! ;)

Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: c l e a r on November 14, 2009, 04:45:20 PM
in UFO you shouldn't die in the first place

Oh, now it's on.

You think just because I am ambitious and conservative in my bomb supply is why I get my -1.00 power?  You think because I got clipped on some spell dissolve bullshit on last card, is the reason why I enter Stage 6 with 1.00 Power?

Fuck you.  The Power System is flawed and you know it.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Matsuri on November 14, 2009, 05:03:30 PM
Oh, now it's on.

You think just because I am ambitious and conservative in my bomb supply is why I get my -1.00 power?  You think because I got clipped on some spell dissolve bullshit on last card, is the reason why I enter Stage 6 with 1.00 Power?

Fuck you.  The Power System is flawed and you know it.

Well, that doesn't appear to be working for you. The Power System is flawed. That's why you need to bomb more. They're meant to be used. It's not like UFO penalizes you for it like the other games do.

As for hardest, I'd have to say SA Lunatic or PoDD Lunatic.

Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Jaimers on November 14, 2009, 05:18:04 PM
I'd say the hardest is SA, mainly because the bombs suck so much.
There are no free "skip spellcard" tickets, you have to face them whether you like it or not.
The patterns as a whole are pretty difficult as well.

UFO is easier though, assload of resources to get you through, just remember a UFO chaining link through the stages.
I agree that doing a no-bomb run of UFO would be insanely difficult though.
Definitely harder than SA.

SoEW is easy as long as you use up all your bombs before you die.
Doing this I managed to completely bombspam through Marisa and Mima and still have resources left in the end.

As for the hardest, I'd have to say PoDD Lunatic.

Not if your using Reimu.  :V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Matsuri on November 14, 2009, 06:41:16 PM
That's like saying PoFV Lunatic is easy using Aya or Medicine. :P

Then again, I still count it as a Lunatic clear~
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 14, 2009, 06:48:38 PM
Well, that doesn't appear to be working for you. The Power System is flawed. That's why you need to bomb more. They're meant to be used. It's not like UFO penalizes you for it like the other games do.

Yep, Clear. That's exactly how it is. Its the type of games that doesn't worry about being fair play but just give you a lot of resources...

I agree that doing a no-bomb run of UFO would be insanely difficult though.
Definitely harder than SA.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Baity! If you wanna be the next Kefit, you suck it up and get moving!!! He did SA in two weeks!!! 8)

Hmm... considering that a lot of time has passed since release i suppose it shouldn't be too farfethecd to expect a no-bombs run as impressive as Kefits MoF no-bombs. Caught everything but two cards...  8)

If that's not possible, the game is broken! XD
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 15, 2009, 09:34:11 AM
Should we really be taking special condition runs into consideration for this?

If we do we might as well throw insane stuff like IN 0-power runs into the mix.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Tsym on November 15, 2009, 09:43:44 AM
I'm a Normal mode player, so my opinions don't apply to Hard-Lunatic players.

I'll vote that SA is hardest.  I'm one of those guys that has this insane complex to perfect everything...  You can see where that is going.  With SA, it's hard making the sacrifice of 1 power to bomb because bosses become exponentially harder and the stages become just as ridiculous if you actually need to kill something.  With UFO, it's not as bad, especially since you get literally infinite resources there (almost like MoF).
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 15, 2009, 09:59:58 PM
Baity! If you wanna be the next Kefit, you suck it up and get moving!!! He did SA in two weeks!!! 8)
There's a huge difference in our skills. The only way I'm able to even compare is if I practice even more than usual.

That being said, I reckon I could pull "it" off if I wasn't piled under a crapload of stress / anger at certain people at the moment.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 15, 2009, 10:11:55 PM
Should we really be taking special condition runs into consideration for this?

If we do we might as well throw insane stuff like IN 0-power runs into the mix.

Now, that's not necessary. But a no-bombs run would sure exemplify a games difficulty wouldn't it? Bombs are useful for skipping past the difficult stuff and getting through sticky situations with your skin intact... you could say that the easiest game would be the game that is easiest to clear without bombing.

But if the question is which one is easiest to beat with all your resources bombs included, wouldn't it be easier to just ask: Which one can most easily be abused?

Then i'd say either PCB is easiest. Not only does it give you a lot of lives too but it also have the cherry system which if handled right can be a big advantage. IN also have quite a hefty sum of lives and it have a long time for death-bombing on spellcards. MoF doens't have that many lives but there is bomb spam.

The question here is which is the hardest. That would probably be Mystic Square. Very scarce resources and difficult bosses as well.

There's a huge difference in our skills. The only way I'm able to even compare is if I practice even more than usual.

That being said, I reckon I could pull "it" off if I wasn't piled under a crapload of stress / anger at certain people at the moment.

You are mad at me aren't you?
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 15, 2009, 10:15:38 PM
You are mad at me aren't you?
Nnnnnope.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 15, 2009, 10:21:12 PM
Nnnnnope.

Phew...

EDIT:

'Certain person'... guessing game!!! Is it the nut? Or ZUN?
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 15, 2009, 10:57:41 PM
Now, that's not necessary. But a no-bombs run would sure exemplify a games difficulty wouldn't it? Bombs are useful for skipping past the difficult stuff and getting through sticky situations with your skin intact... you could say that the easiest game would be the game that is easiest to clear without bombing.
Bombs are legitimate resources just like power. My point is that no-bomb/death/etc. runs shouldn't be taken into consideration because those are special challenges for the best of players.

Quote
IN also have quite a hefty sum of lives and it have a long time for death-bombing on spellcards.
If you're talking about the highest amount of starting lives... Should we really be counting those? If you give yourself the max you're pretty much giving yourself a full continue's worth of lives compared to the standard starting set.

Quote
The question here is which is the hardest. That would probably be Mystic Square. Very scarce resources and difficult bosses as well.
I could 1CC Mystic Square with Yuka (which the shot type topic seems to consider the worst in the game) within my first few tries. Granted, I couldn't do it with anyone else for some reason, but its better than I do with stuff like SA.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: theshirn on November 16, 2009, 12:27:27 AM
The question here is which is the hardest. That would probably be Mystic Square. Very scarce resources and difficult bosses as well.
Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno.

I can almost 1cc MS Lunatic.  I cannot 1cc SA or UFO Hard.  I cannot even get past Stage 5, on the rare occasion that I reach it.  MS does give you the fewest lives (aside from SoEW), but it is nowhere near as BS as either of those two.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: ?q on November 16, 2009, 12:35:22 AM
MS and LLS don't change very much as you ascend in difficulty tbh, so if you can do Mystic Square on Normal you should be able to beat it on Hard without much more stress, etc.

That said, Mystic Square is difficult to learn.  because it's poorly designed
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 16, 2009, 12:35:49 AM
'Certain person'... guessing game!!! Is it the nut? Or ZUN?
No and no. You're not going to be able to guess it, I can assure you  :V

Regarding the current debate:


But;

Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Suikama on November 16, 2009, 12:42:58 AM
The biggest challenge of SA is the extreme slippery slope, expecially during bosses. Once you start doing badly it's just gets harder and harder to catch up as your power drops, you lose life pieces from failing spells, and bosses then take forever to beat. If you can maintain your power then it's not hard to clear the game with a ton of lives remaining.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: c l e a r on November 16, 2009, 01:18:09 AM
honestly, there is only one attack in Normal SA that I still don't understand... Orin's final non-card, it looks like you can pass through a pattern with relative ease, but then it goes away and you are in a different spot in the pattern.  I bomb through that even though if it means facing Needle Mountain and Dead Ashes with 1.00-2.00 Power.

but yea, in Normal, SA takes the cake, I am rather proud that my first 1cc is from SA.  Everything else came soon after, minus IN cause the time system hates me or something, or EoSD when I get off my lazy ass and actually try.

Speaking of which, how do you play IN's Time system properly?  I mean ideally, you want to get Rank A every stage so that it doesn't screw you when you are in Final B right?  If someone can tell me how to do that it will be great.  Also, does deathbombing reduce time?
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: ?q on November 16, 2009, 01:54:52 AM
Speaking of which, how do you play IN's Time system properly?  I mean ideally, you want to get Rank A every stage so that it doesn't screw you when you are in Final B right?  If someone can tell me how to do that it will be great.  Also, does deathbombing reduce time?
Unless you plan on using Continues, the major function of meeting the Time goal in each stage is to give yourself more room for error against Kaguya's just-for-fun Last Spells, as they will end prematurely if time hits 5:00AM during the spell rush.  (If you're playing for score, there's already no room for error anyway. :P )

Deathbombing does cut into your Time.  Dying definitely cuts into your Time (about 1000 Time lost IIRC).  Bombing does not.
You get Time for a proportion of the bullets that hit things when your gauge is at most -80%.
You get 3 Time per bullet you graze while your gauge is at least 80%.  You also get 1 Time per enemy you kill...
Spells are worth lots of Time if you capture them.  I guess it might have to do with how large the spell circle is, but don't quote me on that.

Basically, don't get hit and capture spell cards a few spell cards, and you should be pretty good to go for Time.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: lmagus on November 16, 2009, 02:02:29 AM
shoot unfocused on 2nd and 3rd stage!

helps a lot as they are the hardest one imo to meet the time requirement
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 16, 2009, 02:07:17 AM
Dying definitely cuts into your Time (about 1000 Time lost IIRC).
I didn't know this. Pretty sad considering that I'm starting Lunatic soon :V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: c l e a r on November 16, 2009, 02:10:28 AM
While we are still on topic, how DO you "see" Imperishable Shooting" after beating "Hourai Doll"?
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 16, 2009, 02:18:08 AM
Clear extra while capturing at least 7 spell cards. Sounds like a lot, but when there are 13 of them and three can be picked up from Keine, it's not that hard.

And yeah, time means nothing if you don't care about score and are aiming for a 1cc. The only real penalty is that if you don't make it to Rising World/whatever her final last spell is called you don't get the satisfaction of seeing her explode in slow motion. For score though, Kaguya's last spells are worth 33 million each, so it's in your best interests to capture as many as possible for a good score.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 16, 2009, 02:19:59 AM
Kaguya's last spells are worth at least 33 million each, so it's in your best interests to capture as many as possible for a good score.
:V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Azinth on November 16, 2009, 02:24:38 AM
You can get a lot of easy time points just by using the youkai shot to kill familiar-spawning enemies at the right time, i.e. when they've completely spawned all the familiars and when they've fired all of their bullets (when you kill the master, the familiars' death explosions convert surrounding bullets into time orbs).

For instance, stage 2.  If you can milk both the streaming fairies in the middle of the stage and the shotgunning fairies at the end of the stage properly, it's fairly easy to get about 6k time by the time midboss Mystia shows up. 
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 16, 2009, 08:55:19 AM
No and no. You're not going to be able to guess it, I can assure you  :V

I'll just give it up then and pretend its AVGN for ranting about your all-time favorite game Silver Surfer. ;D
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 16, 2009, 09:05:00 AM
Silver Surfer.
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/BaitySM/silversurferorz.gif)
I almost feel like playing it someday
.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Arcengal on November 16, 2009, 11:09:45 AM
While we are still on topic, how DO you "see" Imperishable Shooting" after beating "Hourai Doll"?

It tells you in spell practice. You need to have captured at least 7 cards during your run, between Keine and Mokou. So, 7/13.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 16, 2009, 01:26:07 PM
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/BaitySM/silversurferorz.gif)
I almost feel like playing it someday
.
It was almost as painful as Dragon Warrior, minus the ye olde talk.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 17, 2009, 07:02:23 PM
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/BaitySM/silversurferorz.gif)
I almost feel like playing it someday
.

Now, don't lie to me! You love it, i know you do! ;D
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: LHCling on November 17, 2009, 07:05:52 PM
Heard about it; watched the "review", haven't played it yet  :V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Matsuri on November 18, 2009, 04:20:13 AM
It was almost as painful as Dragon Warrior, minus the ye olde talk.

Hey. Hey. Hey. Dragon Warrior is awesome.  >:(
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 18, 2009, 05:23:48 AM
Hey. Hey. Hey. Dragon Warrior is awesome.  >:(
A Remilia draws near!
Remilia chants the spell of Scarlet Meister.
Command?
>item
>bomb
use on
[ ]Thyself
[X]Enemy
Marisa chants the spell of Master Spark.
Remilia's hit points have been reduced by 350.
Thou hast done well in defeating the Remilia.

Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Matsuri on November 18, 2009, 05:24:53 AM
A Remilia draws near!
Remilia chants the spell of Scarlet Meister.
Command?
>item
>bomb
use on
[ ]Thyself
[X]Enemy
Marisa chants the spell of Master Spark.
Remilia's hit points have been reduced by 350.
Thou hast done well in defeating the Remilia.

Yup. <3
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zetzumarshen on November 18, 2009, 09:25:56 AM
While all the games have very deep depths of scoring to the point it all looks very hard to me :

1. UFO is the hardest game to both 1cc and perfectly scoring at same time. A certain WR replay only have room for 1 deathbomb...
2. SA is the second hardest for both scoring and 1cc-ing at the same time. A perfect stage 1-5 is a must, but there are some room for error in stage 6.
3. EoSD then comes to my mind. Full of suicides everywhere, but very little scoring penalty at bombing Remilia, and Killing Doll and other portion requirement to be bombed for scoring making it somewhat easier.

Other games doesn't have to suicide to score so they are about the same.

Don't know about PC-98 games though >_> 
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Zengeku on November 18, 2009, 10:32:44 AM
Heard about it; watched the "review", haven't played it yet  :V

Well, there really isn't anything good about except for the music which for some reason reminds me of Touhou. Its gotta be those hi-pitched sounds it uses.

Its difficulty is based on you not knowing what's coming. Its easy if you micromemorize everything though.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 12:20:17 AM
A Remilia draws near!
Remilia chants the spell of Scarlet Meister.
Command?
>item
>bomb
use on
[ ]Thyself
[X]Enemy
Marisa chants the spell of Master Spark.
Remilia's hit points have been reduced by 350.
Thou hast done well in defeating the Remilia.

Nice try, too bad Remilia is probably the absolute most bomb-resistant non-extra boss in Touhou
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 22, 2009, 12:24:56 AM
Nice try, too bad Remilia is probably the absolute most bomb-resistant non-extra boss in Touhou
I'm pretty sure Utsuho gets that award, thanks to her obscenely high HP and most bombs in SA being rather crappy... =V
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 12:25:51 AM
I'm pretty sure Utsuho gets that award, thanks to her obscenely high HP and most bombs in SA being rather crappy... =V

The bombs are more crappy, she's not more resistant to them >=p
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 22, 2009, 12:46:12 AM
The bombs are more crappy, she's not more resistant to them >=p
And has a lot more HP (or at least if the information topic is to be believed).
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 12:47:32 AM
And has a lot more HP (or at least if the information topic is to be believed).
Not really. You just need to know how to stay under her, or you might be in for a timeout.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 22, 2009, 12:48:47 AM
Not really. You just need to know how to stay under her, or you might be in for a timeout.
Utsuho? You know who you're talking to, right? >.>;
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 12:54:31 AM
Utsuho? You know who you're talking to, right? >.>;
I do :V

For the first card, you need to figure how to misdirect the suns so you are hitting more than missing.
Second card, watch the enemy indicator. One of the few times when I've found it useful.
Or it will take a loooooooong time.

You'd be surprised how fast Ten Evil Stars goes down when you can stay right under her in the safespot.
Tokamak can be a matter of 20 seconds and her final is just way too short.

But yeah, when you flail around randomly, it can take a long time, especially the first 2.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 01:01:12 AM
Utusho has the most health, I don't know by how much though.

It also doesn't help that Utusho is a dumbass and flies over you to get shot at. Meanwhile Remilia likes to bounce around randomly.

Scarlet Gensokyo is still the longest seeming spellcard ever. Unless you pull off Nintendonuts cheese trick of bombing scarlet meister at 1% or whatever it is, I haven't tried that myself.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 01:03:25 AM
Utusho has the most health, I don't know by how much though.

It also doesn't help that Utusho is a dumbass and flies over you to get shot at. Meanwhile Remilia likes to bounce around randomly.

Scarlet Gensokyo is still the longest seeming spellcard ever. Unless you pull off Nintendonuts cheese trick of bombing scarlet meister at 1% or whatever it is, I haven't tried that myself.
I've once went all the way to 33 seconds left on Scarlet Gensokyo. It was THAT bad.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on November 22, 2009, 01:03:44 AM
*advice*
Don't you think I've looked all that up? -.-

Utsuho is less gimmicks and more pure dodging skill... which I don't have.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Azinth on November 22, 2009, 01:09:18 AM
Scarlet Gensokyo is still the longest seeming spellcard ever. Unless you pull off Nintendonuts cheese trick of bombing scarlet meister at 1% or whatever it is, I haven't tried that myself.

?

The trick is just to shotgun Remilia directly after Meister ends.  There's a period of about a half-second where she doesn't have spellcard armor, so you can usually take out about 1/4 of her health that way.  Oh and make sure you aren't using a bomb when Meister ends, or Remilia will be in bat form and it won't work.

Also, be sure to collect the big powerup right after she shoots the first wave to knock it out, and whenever you bomb or die, stand on top of her during invincibility to knock out the big wave that she usually shoots.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 22, 2009, 01:17:10 AM
Yeah. Hell, Utsuho's more bomb resistant than some extra bosses, since bombs usually completely cripple an extra boss' spell card if used in the right spot.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 22, 2009, 01:21:11 AM
Argh you never appreciate the edit button until you lose it :<

Quote
Unless you pull off Nintendonuts cheese trick of bombing scarlet meister at 1% or whatever it is, I haven't tried that myself.

What Azinth said. If you want a cheesy trick courtesy of me, get a load of how I dealt with the card in my first lunatic 1cc:

With Marisa B, shoot Scarlet Meister like normal. Then, as soon as Remilia fires the first wave, Master Spark. If you did it right, you'll leave Remilia with a sliver of life left. Then, shotgun and reap the rewards of bonus damage on Scarlet Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Hardest Version?
Post by: Arcengal on November 23, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
Scarlet Gensokyo is still the longest seeming spellcard ever.

Nah. Hourai Jewel. You can't even hurt Kaguya for the first 45 seconds or something.