Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Bananamatic on October 22, 2009, 10:01:41 PM

Title: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 22, 2009, 10:01:41 PM
So, I'm trying to 1cc PoFV lunatic.....best I've managed was last life half left for Shiki before I've died....but I still don't understand some mechanics.

1) Scoring. When I've reached her last halforb, I've had 34m score....and I see this cool dude having 78m there, which would give me 2 more lives. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNOc-BZ8Chc)
What do you do to score that high so I can actually 1cc it?

2) Girls you get to fight. Are they fixed for each touhou or random? I DON'T want to fight Medicine again. EVER. It's like forcing StB camera charge. Which I DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAIN.
EVER.
seriously.

3) Sakuya. Is she controlled by Shiki AI or something? I ALWAYS lose her first round in the worst way possible and she takes 1 hit at most before I die.

4) Is there a tier list? For now, I just take whatever girl doesn't have clear next to her name and attempt with her.
Apparently Medicine trips up the AI even more than me a few minutes ago(2 deaths, then a close win) and Aya kind of breaks it too.

5) Strategy....is there something more to it than "smash the shoot button, dodge crap, charge a lv2 when walled, repeat"?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 22, 2009, 10:07:14 PM
Not sure about the rest, but I can at least answer this:
2) Girls you get to fight. Are they fixed for each touhou or random? I DON'T want to fight Medicine again. EVER. It's like forcing StB camera charge. Which I DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAIN.
EVER.
seriously.
You always fight Cirno first, but from stages 2-5 there's a select number of girls you can potentially run into (so you might get Tewi one run and Reisen on another, for example). I believe stage 6 onward is fixed, though.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: LHCling on October 22, 2009, 10:11:29 PM
1. Use L2's to clear the screen, shoot fairies / activated spirits when they're clumped together with snowballs for MASSIVE CHAINING EFFECT. That's about it. There's no way I can see what you're doing wrong unless you put a replay up.

2. Cut: answered.

3. Varies by Stage.

4. Aya / Medicine, everybody else. Te(w)i gets a bonus for auto-bomb reasons. That's against AI. Against Humans is a different thing.

5. Be patient, shoot fairies / activated spirits at the right times (see above, this cannot be stressed enough), use L2 when walled / scoring opportunity rises, stall, repeat. Alternatively, counter-summon, stall, repeat. e.g. 100k counter, 300k counter, 500k counter, stall, repeat. Keep in mind that it is quite difficult to just stop at 500k.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 22, 2009, 10:28:52 PM
4. Aya / Medicine, everybody else. Te(w)i gets a bonus for auto-bomb reasons. That's against AI. Against Humans is a different thing.

Aya/Medicine are BROKEN tier, though, and winning with these on lunatic is easier than winning with anyone else on normal. Trying to brag about Aya/Medicine wins will get you laughed at, unfortunately. Tewi is not so hot due to her weird gauge and awful lvl1 attack (the two do go well together, but it's subpar at best).

I'd put Mystia and Marisa as the top-tier, non-broken chars. Marisa has the awesome boss-killing laser, which also clears the screen very well (and from top to bottom), and faster gauge recharge. Mystia has a wonderful scope, excellent speed (you'll want to be as fast as possible against Shiki's hotdog barrages - macrododging is how you beat her) and all of her special attacks, from EX to boss summon, have slow bullets (when these get reflected at you, they retain their speed - awful for match mode, excellent for story mode).

Cirno is my third favourite but as that cool guy's video shows things might get tricky against Shiki. Reimu is a favourite of some due to her ying-yangs having an above average chance to hit, but while you can get the occasional quick(er) win with her, the abysmal speed turns me off.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 22, 2009, 10:33:47 PM
I guess while we're here I should ask... Is there a way to play as a character's alt costume rather than their normal one in story mode? Also, there anything special I can do to make Reisen more effective?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 22, 2009, 10:35:31 PM
Is Reisen horrible or something? My last attempt was with her....I actually clipped even the spirits a few times =/

And did anyone here win round 1 vs Shiki?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 22, 2009, 10:45:53 PM
Is Reisen horrible or something? My last attempt was with her....I actually clipped even the spirits a few times =/
I hear she's supposed to be though I never heard of clipping spirits before, but I can't let anything as silly as facts and statistics get in my way of using characters I like. As such, I just need to figure out what her best strengths are and maximize on those best I can.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: LHCling on October 22, 2009, 11:12:07 PM
Also, there anything special I can do to make Reisen more effective?

Quote from: Kouryaku
性能

*table of statistics found in-game*

チャージショットは使い辛いが威力は優秀である。リリーは降りてくる時に当てられればショットを数発当てるだけで撃破可能。
基本的に着弾した地点で爆発するが、たまに通常ショットがあるところで爆発するという仕様がある。
発生条件が確定しているため意図的に狙うことも出来なくはないが、タイミングがシビアなので自在に使いこなすのは難しい。

EX、ボス、チャージ、どれも嫌らしい性能、弱くは無い。しかしC2で返される弾の量が多いので押し潰される事も多い。

自キャラ時戦略

全てのキャラにおいての基本をなぞる形になる。
C2で弾を消し、ボスを送る。50万ボーナスだけでなくボスの攻撃にもC2を重ねる。
白弾の連爆は吸霊が自機周辺の亜種なのでやりやすいと思う。
開花をしてもいいが、負ける事は覚悟した方が良いだろう。相手が開花に乗ってくれない限り負けは近付いてくる。

チャージショットは画面上部で爆発させると敵を大量に巻き込むのでゲージを大幅に回復できる。
また、ザコが突っ込んでくる地点であらかじめ爆発させておくとしばらくの間白弾を防ぐ盾としても使える。
ただし前述のバグがあるので、あまりこれに頼りすぎるのは危険。

相手時戦略

ボスの高速渦巻き弾は一回避けた場所に居れば同じ所を通るので当たらないが動くと当りやすいので注意。
ズレ全方位弾は単体では避けやすいがC2EX、白弾が重なってくると途端にダメージを食らう要因になる。速めのC2を心がけよう。
EXは霊と間違えやすい事で有名、慣れれば見分けはつくので慣れよう。動かなければ当たらない弾である。
C2は避けるのは容易いが、C3はまずC2を使わないと安全には抜けられない、注意しよう(C3単独なら重なった所をC1で抜けるのもあり)。
The single piece of information that I found by quickly skimming through this that might be of use to you is to use a Charge Shot to quickly take out Lily. I'm positive that there's a lot more information in there that might be of use to you, like what attacks are good or bad and all that.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Rikter on October 22, 2009, 11:16:11 PM
The single piece of information that I found by quickly skimming through this that might be of use to you is to use a Charge Shot to quickly take out Lily. I'm positive that there's a lot more information in there that might be of use to you, like what attacks are good or bad and all that.

Yeah thats the only nice thing I ever noticed about Reisen in PoFV.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 22, 2009, 11:22:09 PM
The single piece of information that I found by quickly skimming through this that might be of use to you is to use a Charge Shot to quickly take out Lily. I'm positive that there's a lot more information in there that might be of use to you, like what attacks are good or bad and all that.
Thanks, Baity.

*runs through Google Translate real fast*

Okay, I can see the part about a charge shot being able to take out Lily rather quickly (that'll actually be pretty helpful), and I think it says I should also take advantage of the fact her charge shot can destroy bullets. It warns that her C2 is fairly easy to spit back at her, but it's still reliable enough to use to give breathing room if so needed (so I guess it's saying "it's not that great, but it's not worthless"). Best if her C2 is combined with her C3 (which I'm guessing means I shouldn't bother with her boss attack). It also comments that her EX skill is easy to mistake for a spirit, which I'm guessing would help against human opponents.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sen on October 23, 2009, 01:05:18 AM
1) Scoring. When I've reached her last halforb, I've had 34m score....and I see this cool dude having 78m there, which would give me 2 more lives. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNOc-BZ8Chc)
What do you do to score that high so I can actually 1cc it?

Higher score generally requires much more dangerous play. The quickest way to get your score up is to kill as many things onscreen as quickly as possible. Kill one fairy in a chain and set off a combo; kill fairies near bullets so the bullets get cancelled out; clear bullets with level 2 attacks, etc. Basically, spamming and such is the best way to score, but it'll become much more dangerous. The more bullets you cancel out at once, the more come back at you later.

Once fairy deaths start to give off yellow text, you've reached maximum kill value. At that point, if you want to keep them at max value, never stop killing.

It's basically a decision between safety and score, like in all the other games :V

2) Girls you get to fight. Are they fixed for each touhou or random? I DON'T want to fight Medicine again. EVER. It's like forcing StB camera charge. Which I DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAIN.
EVER.
seriously.

It's random to a small degree.
-Stage 1 is either Cirno or Mystia (if you are playing as one of those, your Stage 1 will be the other, or Lyrica)
-Stages 2-3 can be Lyrica, Tei, or the Stage 1 boss you didn't fight.
-Stages 4-5 are usually either Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, or Reisen.
-Stage 6 is always the same, but it varies between opponent. For example, Reisen will always fight Sakuya in Stage 6. Yuka will always fight Reimu. The character you fight here will never be in Stages 1-5.
-Stage 7 is always Medicine or Aya. Who you face depends on who you're using.
---Reimu, Marisa, Youmu, Cirno, Lyrica, Yuka, and Shikieki fight Aya.
---Sakuya, Reisen, Mystia, Tei, Aya fight Medicine.
---Medicine and Komachi, for some reason, fight Yuka.
-Stage 8 is always Komachi, except Komachi herself, who fights Reimu (although Cirno, Lyrica, and Mystia fight Yuka for some reason...).
-Stage 9 is, obviously, always Shikieki :V

There are occasional exceptions to the above, usually having to do with some plot-related drivel. Reisen always fights Tei at Stage 3, for example.

3) Sakuya. Is she controlled by Shiki AI or something? I ALWAYS lose her first round in the worst way possible and she takes 1 hit at most before I die.

It depends on what Stage you're on. Stage 6 AI is about 23720148721034 times harder than Stages 1-5, but Sakuya is the worst difficulty spike. Reisen's scenario makes me want to cry, since you go through Sakuya, then Medicine, then Komachi, then Shiki.

4) Is there a tier list? For now, I just take whatever girl doesn't have clear next to her name and attempt with her.
Apparently Medicine trips up the AI even more than me a few minutes ago(2 deaths, then a close win) and Aya kind of breaks it too.

The AI is programmed to dodge at the last possible frame it's possible to dodge bullets. Since Medicine slows down the AI, the timing is thrown off, hence why she's such a gamebreaker. With Aya, her bullets are just so god damned fast that the AI can't get out of the way in time.

As for a tier list, I've often wondered this myself. A lot of characters have one good thing, and then a lot of little bad things. For example, Reisen has a terrible L1 attack and laughable EX attacks (seriously, sit still and wait for one to come at you. It will detonate and the explosion will not touch you.), but she has, in my opinion, one of the best spirit-activating fields in the game. Cirno has a pathetic field, bad attacks, but she spawns EX attacks faster than other characters.

A quick tier list I made in six seconds :V
Top Tier
Aya
Medicine
High Tier
Shikieki
Komachi
Tei
Reimu
Mid-Tier
Sakuya
Marisa
Reisen
Cirno
I-don't-play-them-enough-to-know-for-sure-but-they're-probably-shit Tier
Everyone else besides Youmu
Garbage Tier
Youmu

5) Strategy....is there something more to it than "smash the shoot button, dodge crap, charge a lv2 when walled, repeat"?

Generally, there are two major strategies:
---Scoring: In which you spam attacks and never let up on the shooting. This fills up the screen with white bullets very very quickly, so you have to be extra careful.
---Survival: In which you go at a normal pace, but occasionally stop shooting. Stop shooting anywhere from thirty seconds to a minute. You'll be amazed at how quickly your screen empties of bullets.



Hope this helped :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 23, 2009, 01:25:28 AM
A quick tier list I made in six seconds :V
[...]
High Tier
[...]
Tei
Reimu
Wait, what does Tewi have that makes her better than Reimu? From what I understand Reimu has a smaller hitbox on her person and a bigger one on her yinyangs than Tewi's bouncy balls, not to mention a far better charge attack...

...And why is Youmu so bad? Doesn't her lv1 clear bullets?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 23, 2009, 01:40:28 AM
A quick tier list I made in six seconds :V

Well, tiers are weird, because mine goes like this (mostly considering story mode):

Top tier
Mystia
Marisa
Shikieiki

High tier
Cirno
Reimu
Sakuya

Mid-tier
Yuka
Komachi
Tewi

Low tier
Reisen
Lyrica
Youmu

And for match mode, I liked playing with Lunasa, but someone broke her at some point with one of the patches and now it's impossible to charge with her. Never played with Merlin now that I think about it.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 23, 2009, 01:52:43 AM
So, I'm trying to 1cc PoFV lunatic.....best I've managed was last life half left for Shiki before I've died....but I still don't understand some mechanics.

1) Scoring. When I've reached her last halforb, I've had 34m score....and I see this cool dude having 78m there, which would give me 2 more lives. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNOc-BZ8Chc)
What do you do to score that high so I can actually 1cc it?

2) Girls you get to fight. Are they fixed for each touhou or random? I DON'T want to fight Medicine again. EVER. It's like forcing StB camera charge. Which I DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAIN.
EVER.
seriously.

3) Sakuya. Is she controlled by Shiki AI or something? I ALWAYS lose her first round in the worst way possible and she takes 1 hit at most before I die.

4) Is there a tier list? For now, I just take whatever girl doesn't have clear next to her name and attempt with her.
Apparently Medicine trips up the AI even more than me a few minutes ago(2 deaths, then a close win) and Aya kind of breaks it too.

5) Strategy....is there something more to it than "smash the shoot button, dodge crap, charge a lv2 when walled, repeat"?
1. Can't really tell you, I don't usually worry about anything score-related that isn't my spellpoint gauge.

2. Each character fights a specific set of characters, but the order the fights are in can vary.

3. I've always found Sakuya to be one of the easier characters to beat.  Do you have trouble with her EX attacks?  I could do a quick run against the hard/lunatic AI and give you the replay if you need some reference as to how to deal with her.

4. After about ten revisions, I made a tier list, but it's for PvP, not vs AI.  Off the top of my head though from my time playing lunatic match play, it'd probably look something like this:

Top
-----
Aya (AI can't dodge fast bullets)
Medicine (AI can't dodge when moving slow (allegedly anyway; from my experience, characters from Shiki speed up seem to be able to deal with it, though that's speaking from match play experience)

High
-----
Reimu (lv2 bombs tear everything apart)
Youmu (EX and boss attacks take the AI out before it knows what happened, plus you can play defensively with ease)
Marisa (lol lv2 bombs)
Sakuya (EX knives wall the AI effectively)
Shikieiki (Judgement "The Last Judgement".  That is all.)

Mid
-----
Yuka (Flower walls + Q.E.D. ripoff)
Tewi (Bouncing amulets + automatic deathbomb)
Cirno (Perfect Freeze helps with your survival,, randomized bullets sometimes trip the AI up.  Also, ICICLES, THOUSANDS OF THEM)


Low
-----
Komachi (there may be lots of bullets, but they aren't dense at all and the AI doesn't have a problem with that.  However her awesome charge and scope keep her from being bottom tier)
Mystia (again, lots of space between bullets, except now they're slower and there's less of them.  Again though, awesome scope, and a decent lv2 bomb)

Bottom
-----
Reisen (The only thing that's ever going to land a hit is the speedy shots in "Luna Megalopolis", otherwise her EX attacks will detonate before they hit the opponent, and her bombs are worthless.  However, her lv1 charge is arguably the best defensive/offensive lv1 in the game, so you can still win through sheer survival)
Lyrica (Music notes can't hit shit)

For match play, you can add Lunasa in mid and Merlin in bottom.

5. lv1 charges, use them.  Most characters can use one or two lv1 charges to destroy Lily before she even gets a chance to shoot, and boss characters can go down in about four with characters like Marisa and Reisen.  Plus, the items bosses drop let you turn the tide on your opponent almost instantly.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sen on October 23, 2009, 02:17:20 AM
Wait, what does Tewi have that makes her better than Reimu? From what I understand Reimu has a smaller hitbox on her person and a bigger one on her yinyangs than Tewi's bouncy balls, not to mention a far better charge attack...

...And why is Youmu so bad? Doesn't her lv1 clear bullets?
Do note the "six seconds" part. :V

I was mostly thinking about Tei's automatic death-bomb essentially giving her an extra life, but now that I think about it, yeah, I'd put Reimu above her.

As for lolyoumu, I just can't find anything good. She moves too fast unfocused and too slow focused. Her scope is useless since it requires you to wait FOREVER to activate anything (Cirno has this even worse, since hers doesn't even expand), during which you're almost as slow as charging Aya in StB, and it takes her a full second to charge. Her sword's ability to destroy bullets doesn't do much when you're in the middle of clusterfucks of bullets where more just come right after you destroy some. Not to mention that by the time you really need to use it, it takes too long to charge her attacks.


Maybe I'm just really terrible at PoFV with anyone besides Yuka.

EDIT: Yeah I'm starting to think it's just that :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 23, 2009, 02:26:58 AM
As for lolyoumu, I just can't find anything good. She moves too fast unfocused and too slow focused. Her scope is useless since it requires you to wait FOREVER to activate anything (Cirno has this even worse, since hers doesn't even expand), during which you're almost as slow as charging Aya in StB, and it takes her a full second to charge. Her sword's ability to destroy bullets doesn't do much when you're in the middle of clusterfucks of bullets where more just come right after you destroy some. Not to mention that by the time you really need to use it, it takes too long to charge her attacks.
Youmu requires an entirely different mindset and good knowledge of the opponent's bombs and boss cards, plus a "don't-bomb-unless-you-know-you'll-have-to" mindset.  When playing Youmu, your goal isn't to kill everything in sight and overwhelm your opponent, it's to wait them out, use lv1 charges to slash a hole in key parts of bullet patterns, and to cleave Lily to pieces for your moment of offense.  Her EX attacks pile up and eat away at your opponent's space, and her boss attacks are designed to force them to move in that limited space.  Which, against the AI, even the match play lunatic AI, works extremely well.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 23, 2009, 02:40:14 AM
As for lolyoumu, I just can't find anything good. She moves too fast unfocused and too slow focused. Her scope is useless since it requires you to wait FOREVER to activate anything (Cirno has this even worse, since hers doesn't even expand), during which you're almost as slow as charging Aya in StB, and it takes her a full second to charge.

I agree with you on Youmu but Cirno's scope is pretty decent; fixed size, instant deployement, circle-shaped. You just have to be proactive.

And Youmu's scope is horrible not only because it takes forever to expand, but because just after pressing shift you're still vulnerable to ramming a spirit while moving, and if you keep it for too long it gets TOO large and starts activating spirits everywhere - including in places where they'll end up exploding at you from weird directions.

A lot of pros play Youmu, though, so who knows.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 23, 2009, 04:17:12 AM
Actually, that run where I got Shiki down to her last life with only 34m score and still had 1 life was with Youmu.... :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 23, 2009, 04:18:54 AM
Actually, that run where I got Shiki down to her last life with only 34m score and still had 1 life was with Youmu.... :V
Like I said, you play Youmu defensively, not offensively.

Playing defensively means stuff doesn't die.

Stuff not dying means you don't get points. :V

Though thinking about it that way, I bet Reisen's godly for scoring.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 23, 2009, 04:02:10 PM
Replay here. (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=5568)
21m at stage 7.....there has to be something I'm doing wrong.
I should probably not wait for so long before lv2ing.

I shoot the crap out of everything, but I still can't get even the 50m extend.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 23, 2009, 06:57:24 PM
Reisen (The only thing that's ever going to land a hit is the speedy shots in "Luna Megalopolis", otherwise her EX attacks will detonate before they hit the opponent, and her bombs are worthless.  However, her lv1 charge is arguably the best defensive/offensive lv1 in the game, so you can still win through sheer survival)
Interestingly, this contradicts the thing that Baity posted,which said that I'm better off using level 2 and lv3 bombs in combination rather than attempting to use her boss attack, which implies the boss attack isn't good... (though it does agree that using a lv2 on its own is rather easy to send back at her)

Times like this I wish I was a better player, if only to be able to identify strengths and weaknesses on my own more reliably...
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 23, 2009, 07:57:55 PM
Interestingly, this contradicts the thing that Baity posted,which said that I'm better off using level 2 and lv3 bombs in combination rather than attempting to use her boss attack, which implies the boss attack isn't good... (though it does agree that using a lv2 on its own is rather easy to send back at her)

Times like this I wish I was a better player, if only to be able to identify strengths and weaknesses on my own more reliably...
Well, you should never use a lv4 bomb, only 2's, and maybe 3's if you know what you're doing.  But speed is the Achilles heel of the AI, and Reisen's boss attack has one phase that's nothing but speed.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 23, 2009, 08:02:35 PM
Well, you should never use a lv4 bomb, only 2's, and maybe 3's if you know what you're doing.  But speed is the Achilles heel of the AI, and Reisen's boss attack has one phase that's nothing but speed.
Clearly this means I should go on a mission to 1CC Lunatic story mode with Reisen.*

*Not really... I can't even do that with broken chars like Aya or Medicine; I couldn't do it with Reisen.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sapz on October 23, 2009, 08:32:01 PM
Replay here. (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=5568)
21m at stage 7.....there has to be something I'm doing wrong.
I should probably not wait for so long before lv2ing.

I shoot the crap out of everything, but I still can't get even the 50m extend.
Just watched the replay and from my initial impressions your biggest problem by far is not spamming your L2s enough... I'd go so far as to say that for the first five stages, if your gauge gets 3 bars full you should use an L2 out of general principle. ALWAYS use an L2 on Lily White regardless of whether or not you think you can take the bulletspam, etc. I haven't really used Tewi much, though, so I could be wrong; going to try a Lunatic run now and see if she's any good with scoring. Unless Tewi is absurdly bad compared to Reimu, Marisa or Shiki, though, you can and should be at 10m by the end of Stage 3 or so, 30m by the end of Stage 6 and 50m by the end of Stage 8. :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 23, 2009, 08:36:56 PM
Unless Tewi is absurdly bad compared to Reimu, Marisa or Shiki
Pretty much. :V

Her EX has the same rape properties as Reimu's yin-yang orbs, but nothing else is going to give the AI any trouble whatsoever. k;
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sapz on October 23, 2009, 09:03:13 PM
Pretty much. :V

Her EX has the same rape properties as Reimu's yin-yang orbs, but nothing else is going to give the AI any trouble whatsoever. k;
Eh... she didn't seem that bad. Nice charge speed, nice movement speed, bosses died fairly quickly. :V

Anywho, here's (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=5572) the run I just did with Tewi. I lost to Shiki, predictably enough, but I did pretty well on most stages. Far as I can there's absolutely nothing wrong with Tewi for gaining lives, at any rate; I'd almost hit the 70m extend by the time I got a game over.

Unrelated, pretty pleased with the battle against Reisen and the final battle against Shiki (even though I lost that one but still).
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 23, 2009, 09:27:03 PM
I dunno who should I use. I just randomly pick one loli without a clear next to her name and attempt with her.
Not trying with anyone who has to fight Medicine though.

Aren't the poison clouds just supposed to slow you down? I swear that she has one attack where she spawns like 4 on you, which stops you almost completely.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sapz on October 23, 2009, 09:40:17 PM
I dunno who should I use. I just randomly pick one loli without a clear next to her name and attempt with her.
Not trying with anyone who has to fight Medicine though.

Aren't the poison clouds just supposed to slow you down? I swear that she has one attack where she spawns like 4 on you, which stops you almost completely.
IMO, go with Reimu. Very fast charging and a nice slow movement speed, plus deals with the AI pretty well and doesn't fight Medicine. The Tewi attempt just now was actually my first time fighting Lunatic Medicine... way too many 'CAN'T SEE SHIT CAPTAIN' moments going on there. There was a part where I literally had no idea at all where I was. :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 23, 2009, 10:04:33 PM
Tried Marisa a while ago....
I swear, Sakuya stage6 has BULLSHIT AI.
She didn't take a single hit until 2:20. Same for Aya.

EDIT: Okay, all st6 and 7 have bullshit AI.
I have no idea how Aya manages to pull 3 boss spells out of her ass.
Same for Marisa. Up to st5 it's easy, then it turns almost impossible to beat some touhous on the first round.
Not to mention that Marisa walls me off from the fairies and breaks my chains while she just endlessly throws spells.
It's stupid how you almost beat her, then 1 minute into the fight you get hit two times in a row because of the lasers and you are on your last life.

I usually lose once or twice to st6, then the difficulty goes down to cirno level, Aya goes mostly down on the second try with my last life left....

Komachi is a bit luck based since she can sometimes perfect me on the first round and sometimes I beat her.....and Shikieiki takes 2 continues.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 05:30:05 AM
Okay, I'm starting to think I really CAN do it. I game over'd at Lunatic Medicine on Reisen's scenario, but I DID get her all the way to half a life left and lasted for a good while before dying.

Does Reisen have a notable passive skill, like Tewi's auto deathbomb or Reimu's tiny hitbox?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 24, 2009, 05:34:17 AM
Does Reisen have a notable passive skill, like Tewi's auto deathbomb or Reimu's tiny hitbox?

Quote from: PoFV character selection screen
Activated spirits move upwards swiftly

...I guess that's a "no"
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 05:39:57 AM
...I guess that's a "no"
Well, at least its not the worst passive skill. I mean, at least this means spirits that I accidentally activate near the bottom of the screen can still get above me in time so that I can shoot them down before they explode. =V

*tortures himself and continues trying*

EDIT: Also, there a way to play as Reisen's alternate colors? If memory serves her alt. outfit is one I'd like to play as.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 06:36:38 AM
Does Reisen have a notable passive skill, like Tewi's auto deathbomb or Reimu's tiny hitbox?
The only passive skills I can think of that are noteworthy are Marisa's, Mystia's, Medicine's, and Yuka's.

However, Reisen's lv1 charge is so destructive that after the pace starts to pick up it outshines Marisa's passive gauge increase, so there's that to think about.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sen on October 24, 2009, 06:39:06 AM
However, Reisen's lv1 charge is so destructive that after the pace starts to pick up it outshines Marisa's passive gauge increase, so there's that to think about.

I'm a bit confused about Reisen's L1 attack. Is it really that good? I've always used Reisen in between my Cirnos and Yukas, but her L1 attack never really seemed that good. Am I just missing something?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 24, 2009, 06:43:19 AM
I'm a bit confused about Reisen's L1 attack. Is it really that good? I've always used Reisen in between my Cirnos and Yukas, but her L1 attack never really seemed that good. Am I just missing something?

It has that annoying tendency of hitting a random fairy before getting to where you want it to. I still think that whatever it does, Marisa's laser does better.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 06:47:36 AM
Quote from: Serafie
I'm a bit confused about Reisen's L1 attack. Is it really that good? I've always used Reisen in between my Cirnos and Yukas, but her L1 attack never really seemed that good. Am I just missing something?
The blast is massive, high-power (one can take out Lily or a boss), and lasts an extremely long time, which means if it's sitting in the top of the screen it'll eat everything up there and dump it all on your opponent.

And at max spellpoints it fills about two bars.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 06:51:57 AM
It has that annoying tendency of hitting a random fairy before getting to where you want it to. I still think that whatever it does, Marisa's laser does better.
Agreed completely.  I'm pretty sure the damage is almost the same, even.  The only real advantage to Reisen's is horizontal range (though to be fair, that's rather important).

Double posting because PSP charlimit.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 06:55:12 AM
It has that annoying tendency of hitting a random fairy before getting to where you want it to. I still think that whatever it does, Marisa's laser does better.
Marisa's laser is probably better, but I tend to use the bullet for crowd control more than anything. Even if it blows up prematurely it tends to blow a freaking huge hole in the bullets for me to find an escape through, which helps me a lot.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 24, 2009, 06:58:19 AM
The only real advantage to Reisen's is horizontal range (though to be fair, that's rather important).

Marisa's laser is probably better, but I tend to use the bullet for crowd control more than anything. Even if it blows up prematurely it tends to blow a freaking huge hole in the bullets for me to find an escape through, which helps me a lot.

Marisa's laser does the same crowd control from a mile away without chance of interruption. You're supposed to sweep the screen with it, not shoot it while standing still (unless when attacking bosses).

edit: unfortunately all of my Marisa lunatic 1ccs failed to save. wait half an hour and I'll see if I can get another, I'm having better luck with the saves as of late.

edit#2: pah, the replay failed to save. a shame - I played like a madman (NOT in the good sense), 131+ million points, ended with no lives left, highly entertaining stuff.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 07:29:50 AM
I know Marisa is better. That doesn't change I'd rather 1CC it with Reisen. >.>

Also: Anyone know how to select a character's alternate color aside from being P2 in a mirror match?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 24, 2009, 07:34:05 AM
I know Marisa is better. That doesn't change I'd rather 1CC it with Reisen. >.>

Well don't complain then.  :V
I have a near-100% 1cc rate with Marisa, Mystia and Cirno nowadays and I've never 1cc'ed it with Reisen, so you might have an idea of what you're getting yourself into.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 07:43:55 AM
Well don't complain then.  :V
Where was I doing that? All I'm complaining about right now is the inability to play as Reisen's alt costume. =V

Quote
I have a near-100% 1cc rate with Marisa, Mystia and Cirno nowadays and I've never 1cc'ed it with Reisen, so you might have an idea of what you're getting yourself into.
I know very well this won't be easy, but I can get very close to beating Medicine more than once, so it's not impossible.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 24, 2009, 08:44:17 AM
Where was I doing that? All I'm complaining about right now is the inability to play as Reisen's alt costume. =V

I think I was thinking about Banana's grumpiness towards PoFV lunatic and mixed everyone up.  :V

I know very well this won't be easy, but I can get very close to beating Medicine more than once, so it's not impossible.

You might want to know that "very close to beating Medicine" isn't half the path. I just got my Reisen 1cc (which of course failed to save - I still wonder how much luck I had with the Medicine/Aya NFNV runs saving, one after the other) - one death to Sakuya, one to Medicine, one to Komachi and three to Shikieiki. And don't be fooled: I played my absolute best against Shikieiki.

I wish the replays wouldn't crash so often.  :'(
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: LHCling on October 24, 2009, 08:51:22 AM
I wish the replays wouldn't crash so often.  :'(
There was an apparent workaround for this.

What you do is when you go to save the replay, you select the spot so it will ask you for the name input. You cancel out of this, and then you select the same spot and save it.

Whether it actually prevents crashing or not; who knows. But it certainly allowed me to save certain PoFV replays before.

Another belief in the crashing is the use of the English version.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 09:00:42 AM
You might want to know that "very close to beating Medicine" isn't half the path. I just got my Reisen 1cc (which of course failed to save - I still wonder how much luck I had with the Medicine/Aya NFNV runs saving, one after the other) - one death to Sakuya, one to Medicine, one to Komachi and three to Shikieiki. And don't be fooled: I played my absolute best against Shikieiki.
Yeah, I'm expecting Shikieiki to completely ruin me... I'm not a very good player even at the normal games, so I doubt I'll be able to actually achieve it anytime soon, but I'd still rather not just give up...
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 24, 2009, 09:03:09 AM
There was an apparent workaround for this.
You say it as if I didn't know it.  :V  It worked for a long time then it stopped working for no reas-

Another belief in the crashing is the use of the English version.
...hmmm. This is interesting. Worth a try.


Yeah, I'm expecting Shikieiki to completely ruin me... I'm not a very good player even at the normal games, so I doubt I'll be able to actually achieve it anytime soon, but I'd rather not just give up...

PoFV was the first lunatic I cleared. Just keep going. I'd advise against using Reisen if your goal is a 1cc, though.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 09:24:23 AM
PoFV was the first lunatic I cleared. Just keep going. I'd advise against using Reisen if your goal is a 1cc, though.
Rest assured I'm not using Reisen because I want to 1CC, I'm using Reisen because I want to 1CC with her specifically.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 24, 2009, 03:29:15 PM
Person who actually likes PoFV checking in.

Top Tier (against AI):
Medicine:  You should not see a match last more than 90 seconds. The pixel-perfect dodging the AI uses doesn't work when they're slowed down.
Aya:  Pixel-perfect dodging also doesn't work when there's a giant red thing coming at you at high speed.  Not recommended because very fast bullets will be reflected at you.

High Tier (against AI):
Reimu:  Large yin-yang orbs and the ability to trap foes with homing spells.  Does not score very well.  Occasionally her spells will send fast bullets toward you.
Sikieiki:  Godly scope and an even godlier Lv. 2 for scoring.  Main offense is the Last Judgment laser, which hits a fair amount of the time.

Mid Tier:
Marisa:  The standard for playable characters.  Good scope and the charge time buff is very useful, but the chance that her lasers will hit the AI is pretty small (but at least it exists).
Cirno:  If you're fine with a manic focused speed and a scope that only allows you to body-check the butterflies; she can punish the AI with her icicles and play a great defensive game with spell spam (and still score reasonably well!).
Sakuya:  The only thing worse than playing as Sakuya is playing against Sakuya.  Her EX attacks slay the AI at the expense of an awkward scope and an awkward time stop.

Low Tier:
Yuka:  A slow character that winds up having to dodge fast bullets.  What's wrong with this picture?  She's sort of okay at hitting the AI because her flowers are huge, but she's difficult to use once the bullets start flying.
Tewi:  Her autobomb isn't worth basically having to play unfocused.  Her EX attack surprisingly does well against the AI.

Bottom Tier:
Lyrica:  See Reisen, but with a better scope.
Reisen:  Lv. 2 spam will do nicely for scoring, but she has no attacks that will hit the AI... leading to a contradiction.
Komachi:  Has no attacks that will hit the AI.  With that in mind, ranges from okay to terrible based on how you abuse her scope.
Mystia:  I don't get what's so great about her scope.  Moves very quickly and has no attacks that will hit the AI.
Youmu:  Her Lv. 1 shot is a rip-off of epic proportions, she doesn't score well, and while her blue knife spam has a greater-than-zero chance of hitting the AI it's not worth it on your side of the screen.

Something that I didn't factor in because I don't remember who fights whom:
*Yuka is easier than Komachi.  I'm not sure if Reimu is easier than Komachi.
*Aya is much easier than Medicine.
*Reimu is easier than Sikieiki.

----

You can't change to your alt costume during Story Mode.
I think in Match Mode you need to hold Shift as you select your character.

----

Reisen's Lv. 1 attack would be much better if it had any chance of reaching the top of the screen and hitting something (considering it's slow-moving and usually detonates when it hits a spirit that's about a centimeter in front of you).
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 03:49:59 PM
A bit of clarification; it's not that Mystia's scope is good, it's that her passive ability sends spirits flying straight into it.  Kind of like a more roundabout version of Komachi's scope (bring everything to you as opposed to activating them wherever), except with the benefit that anything you activate will already be in front of your face.

Also, Yuka's not *that* bad, you just need to be comfortable with micrododging and playing unfocused frequently.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: DgBarca on October 24, 2009, 04:03:17 PM
If you play Yuka, you will not fight Medecine I guess, because it would be horrible
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 04:24:41 PM
If you play Yuka, you will not fight Medecine I guess, because it would be horrible
Then this can be your fault.

It can also be your fault that my life mission is to now win this fight.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sen on October 24, 2009, 04:55:34 PM
A bit of clarification; it's not that Mystia's scope is good, it's that her passive ability sends spirits flying straight into it.  Kind of like a more roundabout version of Komachi's scope (bring everything to you as opposed to activating them wherever), except with the benefit that anything you activate will already be in front of your face.

In my experience, her ability only attracts spirits that are already in front of her or slightly to the side.

Y'know, the ones that her scope would already touch even if they weren't flying at her. >_>
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 06:49:08 PM
Bottom Tier:
[...]
Reisen:  Lv. 2 spam will do nicely for scoring, but she has no attacks that will hit the AI... leading to a contradiction.
I find Luna Megalopolis usually lands some hits on the AI, but that doesn't help much when the CPU has the magical ability to pull a boss move out of their rear end any time I get lucky enough to send one their way, rendering it rather pointless...

EDIT: Also, there a way to reduce lag in netplay mode? A game with a friend of mine ended up going at 10 FPS...
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Azure Lazuline on October 24, 2009, 07:30:15 PM
I find that Youmu is an extremely good defensive player... but of course, very bad at offense. It basically becomes a game of whoever messes up first. (Which of course means that using her against the AI is suicide, but she works fairly well against humans.)
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 07:37:16 PM
Haha! I managed to reach Komachi this time! The odd part? I never fought Tewi before then... I fought Lyrica and Reimu for rounds 3 and 4, respectively.

Also, it seems you CAN select your alt costume in story mode by holding shift when selecting. The irony? Reisen's alternate costume only changes her clothes, so because her hair is so long it makes almost no difference on her sprite. >.>

Also... I actually kinda like when her lv1 detonates right away, because it means stuff died and bullets are cleared. If it goes right through then I have to rely on my craptacular pure dodging skills to survive..
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 24, 2009, 07:48:03 PM
I find that Youmu is an extremely good defensive player... but of course, very bad at offense. It basically becomes a game of whoever messes up first. (Which of course means that using her against the AI is suicide, but she works fairly well against humans.)
Then why did I have the best results at Lunatic with her? :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 07:54:52 PM
Then why did I have the best results at Lunatic with her? :V
What kind of score did you get with her?

I got about 50.9 million points before I game over'd at Komachi.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 24, 2009, 07:58:04 PM
What kind of score did you get with her?

I got about 50.9 million points before I game over'd at Komachi.
34,757,500.
However, ONE MORE HIT AND IT WOULD BE 1CC LUNATIC.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 08:15:15 PM
I find that Youmu is an extremely good defensive player... but of course, very bad at offense. It basically becomes a game of whoever messes up first. (Which of course means that using her against the AI is suicide, but she works fairly well against humans.)
Personally, I think she's one of the easier characters to win with, because the AI is retarded at dodging non-moving bullets.  Seriously. :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 24, 2009, 08:20:04 PM
Personally, I think she's one of the easier characters to win with, because the AI is retarded at dodging non-moving bullets.  Seriously. :V
The AI doesn't get hit, the AI just decides when it gets hit and rams the closest bullet.
Aya and Medicine break this because zun's girlfriend lol since the AI can't read all the fast shit neither it can deal with the slowdown.
Seriously. :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 08:24:54 PM
Quote from: Bananamatic
The AI doesn't get hit, the AI just decides when it gets hit and rams the closest bullet.
Aya and Medicine break this because zun's girlfriend lol since the AI can't read all the fast shit neither it can deal with the slowdown.
Seriously. :V
Fun fact: the AI doesn't watch where EX attacks are going to spawn, and since Youmu's are decently sized and flood the bottom of the screen... :V

Also, the AI gets hit quite a bit, lunatic just has a 100% chance of deathbomb.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Azure Lazuline on October 24, 2009, 08:25:34 PM
Huh, maybe I'm using her a bit too defensively then. I can't win against the AI with her when I can fairly easily with most other characters, but against a human it's the opposite. Maybe my mindset changes too much between the two situations...
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 08:32:10 PM
Huh, maybe I'm using her a bit too defensively then. I can't win against the AI with her when I can fairly easily with most other characters, but against a human it's the opposite. Maybe my mindset changes too much between the two situations...
When I play Youmu, defense is on my mind 80%.  The other 20% is "kill Lily/bosses and hope for an EX item".
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 08:35:31 PM
A friend of mine commented that Reisen's EX skill managed to nearly wall him once... I guess the idea is that they're not supposed to hit you, they're supposed to block where you can move since the explosion lingers.

Leave it to Reisen to focus more on psyching people out than direct destruction... I just wish it was easier to wall with them like you can with Yuka's flowers.

EDIT: Any advice for Medicine? I often find myself losing the bulk of my lives to her (Sakuya I can handle now that I decided to stop trying to kill her boss mode and just dodge the knives and Komachi is tough, but not TOO bad).
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 24, 2009, 08:46:17 PM
The hitbox size and duration on Reisen's EX explosions is bizarre and I'd rather use a keyboard to explain its intricacies.

Against Medicine, the only real threat is when the poison clouds overlap.  If you're in one, dodge unfocused.  If you're in two, focus to see where you are, but odds are you'll be tossing out a lv2 bomb and running.  Watch out for her boss attack as well, and be prepared to macrododge the giant pink wave if you see it coming.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 24, 2009, 09:41:57 PM
Against Medicine, the only real threat is when the poison clouds overlap.  If you're in one, dodge unfocused.  If you're in two, focus to see where you are, but odds are you'll be tossing out a lv2 bomb and running.  Watch out for her boss attack as well, and be prepared to macrododge the giant pink wave if you see it coming.
Well, the only issue is the fact the poison clouds cover up the entire bottom half of my screen. >.<
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sen on October 25, 2009, 03:03:48 AM
Okay I've been playing PoFV Lunatic all day. I'm really not seeing any differences between this and Normal Mode, which is what I almost always play (I can only do up to Hard on EoSD/PCB/IN). I played Sakuya and got to Komachi on my first run, with only one death against Medicine and an AMAZING Tei battle.

Of course Komachi utterly destroyed me but still. Up until Stage 8 I didn't see any difference between the difficulty levels. Am I missing something, or is it just Sakuya? :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 25, 2009, 03:17:49 AM
Differences between difficulties:
*The initial level of spells increases (thus the game gets harder more quickly)
*The boss lasts longer (not including AI hax, so the higher your character's tier the less this comes into play)
That's really it.

Basically Normal Mode is a lot slower and ends more quickly (pending which character you're using).
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sen on October 25, 2009, 03:25:30 AM
Differences between difficulties:
*The initial level of spells increases (thus the game gets harder more quickly)

Well that explains how Tei and I got our L4 attacks to level 11 so quickly :V

*The boss lasts longer (not including AI hax, so the higher your character's tier the less this comes into play)
That's really it.

Basically Normal Mode is a lot slower and ends more quickly (pending which character you're using).

Really? As in, the boss takes more hits to die, or...?
Does that apply to Lily White?

...actually, I don't think I saw Lily a single time in that Lunatic run I did. Huh.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: theshirn on October 25, 2009, 06:57:09 AM
Well, I cleared Lunatic (on my first life on the third continue) with Cirno.  That said, I got to Shiki with a life in stock on my first credit.

I dunno, her scope is pretty cruddy, but I've got to say I'm partial to the li'l ice fairy, at least for PoFV.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 25, 2009, 02:33:08 PM
Really? As in, the boss takes more hits to die, or...?
Does that apply to Lily White?
That's not quite it.  (To be fair, I believe that the HP system in PoDD/PoFV is completely crackpot and just take what I can get when two hits don't put me down to my last life.)

The AI controls how long matches last by deliberately messing up, and in case you haven't noticed it will stall this out when it's on its last life.  All totaled, Easy Mode matches in Story Mode last about a minute and a half, and with each difficulty level you can add another minute to that.  (Difference: In Match Mode, Lunatic difficulty essentially never gets hit.)

However, if you can cause the AI to accidentally screw up, you can break this trend.  This is where the character tiers come from - bottom tier consists of characters that have to wait for the AI to decide to mess up, and as you go up the list you have characters with greater chances to hack the CPU's dodging algorithm.  As a general rule this is caused by fast-moving walls of bullet, or in Medicine's case forced slowdown.  If you don't have any large bullets/lasers that move faster than the CPU can micrododge, you're at the AI's mercy.

Lily White probably never died in your Lunatic run because you were too busy concentrating on dodging the four hundred bullets that were in your way.  But that's just my guess~
Notice that the AI will usually beat up Lily White each time she appears just because the CPU is that good at dodging and can stay centered.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Sen on October 25, 2009, 02:36:16 PM
Nonono, I mean I never actually saw Lily. Eight stages and five lives, never saw her. It was very weird. But yeah,  I hate how the AI always kills her before I can while I'm just trying not to go blind. D:


Also, getting a lot better at this. It's amazing how much easier things get when you never ever use L4 attacks. :V
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 25, 2009, 02:42:42 PM
You shouldn't have to deliberately use L4 attacks unless you're playing on defense...

I don't know what the timing for Lily is.  In my Extra runs she usually doesn't show up unless you lose a life...  In any event, I wouldn't complain much :P
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 25, 2009, 06:55:07 PM
I can start reaching Komachi with 1 or 2 lives (lucky for me Reisen can at least score enough for me to get the 50 mil extra life), but I've started to get more and more runs where I never run into Tewi... I think fighting her is just as optional as any other fight.

Also I'm beginning to think these kinds of games hate me. A friend gave me a link to PoDD and while playing Rikako I at one point had Yumemi quite literally filled the entire bottom half of my screen with her tombstones. I go back to PoFV and Medicine does the same thing... again (only lucky for me poison just makes it easier for me to die rather than actually kill me).
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 25, 2009, 07:09:52 PM
Tried again with Youmu and got the 50m extend this time.

How do you score all the way to 70m? Are the some leet hax? :V

Still, one death to st6, 2 on st7(fuck you Aya, but not as much as Medicine), 1 on st8, first unavoidable death vs Shiki and then died again.

What is the correct way to play vs Shiki?
I just bash the shoot button all the time - I guess that this isn't a good idea since then she spawns a shitton of hotdogs which you simply can't dodge.

Replay here (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=5603)
Should I switch from Youmu to somebody else who atleast charges faster?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 25, 2009, 07:12:07 PM
I've started to get more and more runs where I never run into Tewi... I think fighting her is just as optional as any other fight.
As usual, the wiki (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View:_Reisen%27s_Scenario) has all you need and even some you don't. (make sure to expand the "contents" box for a more practical view)

Also I'm beginning to think these kinds of games hate me. A friend gave me a link to PoDD and while playing Rikako I at one point had Yumemi quite literally filled the entire bottom half of my screen with her tombstones. I go back to PoFV and Medicine does the same thing... again (only lucky for me poison just makes it easier for me to die rather than actually kill me).
In PoFV killing Lily/boss spawns can give you (or the AI) a purple "EX" item which instantly fills the other side with EX attacks. Still not sure what causes the occasional massive EX spam in PoDD, though - it could be just mass spirit destruction but it's rare enough for me not to really worry.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 25, 2009, 07:27:19 PM
In PoDD you get an EX attack for destroying fireballs within a certain timeframe.  Meaning if there are lots of fireballs in play, killing something at the top of the screen or firing off a lv1 charge means EX attacks galore.

Banana: I'll play a round of match play against Shiki and upload the replay.  Should be fun with Youmu, I can't even beat her with Aya or Medicine :V  (she moves fast enough to deal with poison/streaming at that level, and having Aya's bullets reflected through her EX is scary :c )
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 25, 2009, 07:37:36 PM
As usual, the wiki (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View:_Reisen%27s_Scenario) has all you need and even some you don't. (make sure to expand the "contents" box for a more practical view)
Well, I was just commenting that since Seraphie said Reisen will always fight Tewi due to the story. I figured since the wiki listed her as possible opponent number 3 or 4 she'd always be one of those rounds, but I guess not...

Quote
In PoFV killing Lily/boss spawns can give you (or the AI) a purple "EX" item which instantly fills the other side with EX attacks. Still not sure what causes the occasional massive EX spam in PoDD, though - it could be just mass spirit destruction but it's rare enough for me not to really worry.
Normally I can deal with EX spam by setting off a lv2, but for some stupid reason Medicine's poison clouds won't go away when blasted by the wave. As such, all it does is grant me temporary bullet relief and I'm still forced to move around at annoyingly slow speeds. I'm assuming Shikieiki's clouds operate similarly.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 25, 2009, 08:24:33 PM
What is the correct way to play vs Shiki?
I just bash the shoot button all the time - I guess that this isn't a good idea since then she spawns a shitton of hotdogs which you simply can't dodge.

Replay here (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=5603)
Should I switch from Youmu to somebody else who atleast charges faster?

I watched the replay and played a few matches vs. Shiki with Youmu.

Apparently Youmu's best chance is shooting just enough to have at least a lvl2 gauge ready  to be on the safe side and then wait until Lily appears. Try to kill Lily/slash a path through Lily's spam with a lvl1. By this time Shikieiki will probably send a boss attack or bullet spam since she will kill Lily for the bonus; this is where the "no shooting" thing starts to derail. With some nail-biting lvl1 spam plus the occasional lvl2 when things got too complicated I could at best cut paths in the hotdog spam until around 2:30, and that was pushing it. And even that was a lot better than when playing aggressively since getting past two minutes required a bunch of miracle dodges.

Maybe eating a hit while trying desperately to get up there and slash her boss summon to get the bonus and stop the bullet rain so you can start stalling again... I don't know. I even tried my match mode despair tactic of ramming the first fairy that enters the screen for a minimal gauge boost (since if you play well it doesn't change the two hits you can take before dying), but meh. Defensive chars are not my style, I'm much more comfortable with a quick charge and an useful scope.

Because that can't be stressed enough: Youmu's scope is useless. Mystia and Cirno are my favourite chars because you can stay focused almost all the time against Shiki and still have enough speed to do whatever you need... without ramming spirits left and right, which is what happens if you need to make a quick dodge with Youmu. If you watch my Cirno replay that you mentioned in the OP you'll see that I rarely - if ever - let go of the focus button. And even if you don't want to stay focused, you can just tap focus to activate spirits - something you also can't do with Youmu, since her scope starts out smaller than her sprite and expands very slowly.

tl;dr, protip: don't play Youmu

why you people insist on bottom-tier chars


edit: forgot the most important thing. macrododge everything when there isn't a Shiki boss summon on top of you, micrododge when there is. that's the best advice I can give you. also, don't bomb unless the next hit would put you at 0.5 health; bombing might mean taking two hits before getting to 2-gauge again, and taking two hits = being reduced to 0.5 anyway.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Zengeku on October 25, 2009, 08:36:15 PM
Ah yes. Phantasmagoria.

*Looking at your avy*.

It helps to keep both hands at the keyboard when playing. :P
Otherwise, i totally agree.

Still, i ought to say good luck with your mission. Hard mode was more than enough. And i think the game has inconsistency in its difficulty. On my Hard mode run i lost as many lives as on a recent Normal run.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 25, 2009, 08:40:12 PM
don't bomb unless the next hit would put you at 0.5 health; bombing might mean taking two hits before getting to 2-gauge again, and taking two hits = being reduced to 0.5 anyway.
Like I have a chance with Youmu's charge...."speed"....that's why I've bombed. No way to charge it.

Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 25, 2009, 09:15:49 PM
Finally got some time to play.  Out of nine matches, here's the three that should be the most helpful (2 hard, 1 lunatic).

Most important things to note are that, while it's scary until you practice it, the judgement rods can be micrododged (Reimu replay shows this best), and you should spam L2s whenever you have an L4 out.

Also, do NOT use Youmu.  Playing defensive Youmu I averaged about 1:45 before losing the round, and 1:20 offensive (lunatic, never hit Shiki once).

E: Stupid PSP, could only upload 2
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 25, 2009, 09:31:21 PM
Excuse the double post, here's the lunatic replay.

I just watched your replay, and, outside of cutting back on X bombing (ones like in round 1 in particular, you didn't need those at all), I'd say change characters.  If you want to use Youmu though, use L1s more often, and focus more.  You had a handful of hits due to erratic unfocused flying.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 25, 2009, 09:34:40 PM
Excuse the double post, here's the lunatic replay.

I just watched your replay, and, outside of cutting back on X bombing (ones like in round 1 in particular, you didn't need those at all), I'd say change characters.  If you want to use Youmu though, use L1s more often, and focus more.  You had a handful of hits due to erratic unfocused flying.
How exactly does X bombing penalize me? Loss of chain, entire charge bar loss...something like score too?

Youmu just can't charge fast enough at times, nor she can move around fast enough to keep the chain going.
Character change time I guess.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 25, 2009, 09:51:05 PM
Quote from: Bananamatic
charge bar loss
This specifically is why you shouldn't, unless the next hit will put you at half an orb.  Youmu's L1 is decent enough in its own right to ease up a tight spot enough to squeeze through it, and unlike other bombs you can use it as much as you want.

On that note, after watching your Aya fight, there were so many spots that you could've used L1s.  They completely trivialize her EX and give you time to slip through her L2/3 if you get walled.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 25, 2009, 09:54:31 PM
and unlike other bombs you can use it as much as you want.
The falsehood of this is why Youmu's Lv. 1 is so bad.  You have to charge it well in advance and time it very well.

X bombing doesn't hurt your combo (getting hit does), but unless you have a boss attack out it will drain your entire spell bar, which you will usually not have ready again before you need it.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 25, 2009, 09:56:05 PM
This specifically is why you shouldn't, unless the next hit will put you at half an orb.  Youmu's L1 is decent enough in its own right to ease up a tight spot enough to squeeze through it, and unlike other bombs you can use it as much as you want.

On that note, after watching your Aya fight, there were so many spots that you could've used L1s.  They completely trivialize her EX and give you time to slip through her L2/3 if you get walled.
Fact: I never use lv1s. And that finisher by that fast burst.....*headdesk*
I suck at Aya.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 25, 2009, 10:23:01 PM
The falsehood of this is why Youmu's Lv. 1 is so bad.  You have to charge it well in advance and time it very well.
But, you can spam it, and it charges about as fast as other characters' L2s.  Characters like Reimu become much, much easier when 70% of their EX attacks are being eliminated by your L1.  Is it a replacement for an actual bomb?  Overall, no.  But in the long run it does nothing but benefit you.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 25, 2009, 10:49:42 PM
But, you can spam it, and it charges about as fast as other characters' L2s.  Characters like Reimu become much, much easier when 70% of their EX attacks are being eliminated by your L1.  Is it a replacement for an actual bomb?  Overall, no.  But in the long run it does nothing but benefit you.
I think I would take a L2 over a small slash in front of you any day.

Plus Reimu's EX attacks aren't that bad unless you're getting walled by them, in which case you probably don't have time to charge.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 25, 2009, 10:57:53 PM
Hmm....how to start using lv1 attacks instead of mindless Z bashing? I never use them. How are they even useful?
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ebarrett on October 25, 2009, 11:09:43 PM
Hmm....how to start using lv1 attacks instead of mindless Z bashing? I never use them. How are they even useful?

L1 spam is natural for me since I'm not a good button masher; I charge when it's possible, and shoot while I still can't charge again. Keeps my left hand rested. And since it's automatic for me, I change the way I play to better put a character's L1 to use.


One thing I noticed from your replays is that you aren't actively, er, activating spirits. Keep in mind that while non-activated spirits blown up in a chain will destroy bullets, non-activated spirits blown up individually won't. This is where a decent scope comes into play: you'll want to activate spirits before shooting them. They blow up easier and destroying them becomes infinitely more useful.

Of course, activating spirits with Youmu is tricky because her scope is horrible.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Bananamatic on October 25, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
Of course, activating spirits with Youmu is impossible because she doesn't have a scope.
Fix'd
That's why I've found Marisa good, you don't have to fight Marisa in st6 and she fights Aya instead of Medicine.
Cirno was also good, but Youmu gave me the best results for some reason.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 26, 2009, 12:58:27 AM
AI Marisa's not that bad for the first 100 seconds or so...

@ebarrett:  You need to go find the other control type.  Check for it under Options; there's a control type that lets you hold down Z to constantly fire and keep your scope up (Shift charges).

The only good L1s are for is when you're NOT using that control type and instead using cleverly placed shots to cause massive chain reactions (the PoDD approach, in other words).  If you're constantly shooting, you won't get more power from L1s... ever.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 26, 2009, 01:12:20 AM
If you're constantly shooting, you won't get more power from L1s... ever.
Yuka Kazami.

That is all.

Also, L1 charges deal more damage.  2 fully-hitting L1s will take out Lily or a boss (1 with Tewi/Yuka/Reisen).
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: ?q on October 26, 2009, 01:16:07 AM
Also, L1 charges deal more damage.  2 fully-hitting L1s will take out Lily or a boss (1 with Tewi/Yuka/Reisen).
Tewi and Yuka require you to shotgun Lily.  Reisen's bullet bullet likes detonating prematurely.

Plus while L1 attacks are powerful, the time you spend not shooting while you charge them gives you no or very slight net gain.
Title: Re: PoFV halp
Post by: Esoterica on October 26, 2009, 01:20:52 AM
Tewi and Yuka require you to shotgun Lily.  Reisen's bullet bullet likes detonating prematurely.

Plus while L1 attacks are powerful, the time you spend not shooting while you charge them gives you no or very slight net gain.
L1s automatically activate when you use higher-level bombs, so it's not like that's a problem.  Also, Lily doesn't have a collision box, so you can sit on top of her and kill her before she shoots.

Also, homing/spread L1s are useful for keeping your spellpoints from resetting if the fairies and spirits are on the other side of the screen.