Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Sen on October 15, 2009, 01:19:43 AM

Title: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sen on October 15, 2009, 01:19:43 AM
This occurred to me the other day. Which shottypes around the series are absolutely amazing and destroy whatever game they're in? And conversely, which shottypes are absolutely laughable?

I'd think the top three most broken shots are SA ReimuA, PCB SakuyaB, and MoF MarisaC.
...so basically, all the scoring shottypes :V


As for worst...
MoF ReimuC immediately comes to mind. Incredibly powerful if you can shotgun, but...how often can you actually do that? The spread is laughable at long distance, and the damage is pathetic unless you're right up the enemy's nose.
IN Alice has no range at all, and isn't even that strong. The shot is really only good for MAlice Cannon.
And, of course, UFO MarisaB. Bad damage without shotgunning, the backwards shots are almost entirely useless, and her bomb is stunningly useless. :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Slaves on October 15, 2009, 01:28:13 AM
well Reimu needles is pretty much THE shottype across all the games.

Marisa A in MoF is pretty lol, though. you'd think it'd be more powerful with the amount of shots hitting the enemy, but it isn't.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 01:28:55 AM
Alice solo is potentially the best for extra as Kefit demonstrated. Alice's piercing laser hits both Mokou and her enlarged phoenix hitbox for massive damage, more than even the Malice Cannon can do. Otherwise yeah it's pretty useless. :V

Probably the "best" shot type I can think of is Marisa A in LLS. Quite simply, she breaks the game. She is supposed to be the concentrated forward power type. While she's definitely the power type (doing approximately THREE TIMES as much damage as the homing type), she actually has quite a bit of range to her as well. Bosses die in a flash, and stages are only slightly harder than they would be with homing.

Worst would probably be Marisa C in SA. Weak damage relative to its pathetic range, a bomb that becomes useless at higher levels of play, a fat hitbox, and that annoying pop noise it makes.

Marisa A in MoF wins honorable mention for "what the hell is even the point?"
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Matsuri on October 15, 2009, 01:41:33 AM
*kick* MoF Marisa A is awesome.

I'd have to say SA Marisa C or MoF Marisa C for worst. MoF Marisa C would have been so much better if the options didn't stick for a couple of seconds every time you pressed focus and let go. If it worked like Remilia's options do, it would be great. SA Marisa C is just laughable.

Best would have to go to any of the Reimu needle-types and SakuyaB, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Drake on October 15, 2009, 01:46:20 AM
Just mentioning IN Alice is the weapon of choice if you want to Solo Mokou. Laser hits both her and the wings, generally does a lot of damage to her.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Azinth on October 15, 2009, 01:53:13 AM
Eh, MoF ReimuC and UFO MarisaB would probably be good for stuff like easy-mode scorerunning, for those strange people who are into that kind of thing (like Heartbeam and, uh... Heartbeam).

Also, I'm surprised no one mentioned Sakuya solo yet, since she's probably the only shottype I can think of who honestly has no use whatsoever for anything (aside from retarded challenges of course).  She's certainly leagues worse than solo Alice, who at the very least can actually kill shit.

Also also, the worst overall shottype is definitely PCB SakuyaA, because watching replays of people using her is almost always horrifically boring. :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Tsym on October 15, 2009, 02:06:12 AM
Best - SA Reimu A.  It's probably because every other option in that game sucks so hard.
Worst - There's just too many...
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 15, 2009, 02:15:34 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't think Marisa C SA isn't as bad as Reimu B SA? The bomb makes it perfect for practicing spellcards, doesn't have any damage loss between 3.00 and 4.00 power (which means its practically made for trying to improve with), and is one of the few bombs that legitimately clears the screen of bullets.

Reimu B's bomb is okay, but the revenge shots aren't too good, the default shots are weak and don't home in well, and if you're good at grazing the autocollect isn't that big an advantage.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: canobiecrazy on October 15, 2009, 02:19:35 AM
EoSD- Best- Marisa A-Trees.
         Worst-N/A
PCB-   Best- Reimu B
         Worst- Sakuya B
IN-     Best- Yukari
         Worst-Alice
MoF-  Best- Marisa C
        Worst- Reimu A
SA-   Best- Reimu B Homing AND Piercing
        Worst- Reimu C Goddamned hard to use.
UFO- Best-   Sanae A
        Worst- Reimu B
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 02:22:11 AM
SA Reimu A is the best shot type in the game, but the fact that her bomb is a SA bomb and therefore sucks makes her not the best shot type in the series by a long shot.

Also I don't like SA Reimu B but somehow in my run to unlock stage 4 for stage practice I made it all the way to Orin. o_O
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on October 15, 2009, 02:25:23 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't think Marisa C SA isn't as bad as Reimu B SA?
The piercing, brah. It can kill legions.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Matsuri on October 15, 2009, 02:25:47 AM
SA Reimu A's bomb is awesome if you play for score.  :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ebarrett on October 15, 2009, 02:27:52 AM
SA Reimu A's bomb is awesome for every purpose.  :V

Fixed.

Also, I cleared Phantasm on my first time ever seeing the stage with SakuyaB so my vote goes there even if I prefer ReimuB - SakuyaB's shot is still superior, but Reimu's smoother movements and smaller hitbox make up for it, and the shot is decent enough. WELL LET'S CALL IT A TIE THEN

Worst shottype in the series is probably certainly IN solo Sakuya.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Aisha on October 15, 2009, 02:28:15 AM
Does MoF MarisaB count when playing for survival?
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Tarquinius on October 15, 2009, 02:30:24 AM
My opinion is that Sakuya B is the best shot type in the entire series - excellent bombs, foward focus when focused, and excellent range when unfocused. Worst would probably be all of the SA shottypes except Reimu A and possibly Marisa B.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sen on October 15, 2009, 02:35:47 AM
Ah, I forgot about IN Solo Sakuya, derp. Also forgot how great Alice is for IN Extra, herpaderpderp :V


Also I don't really think SA MarisaC is that bad. The problem is that she's basically a poor-man's ReimuA, which is leagues better than every other shot in the game.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Slaves on October 15, 2009, 02:41:01 AM
i think what makes SA Reimu A one of the better shottypes is her border thing. really useful at times.

and because the shiki patch
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sodium on October 15, 2009, 02:43:34 AM
MoF Marisa C for worst. MoF Marisa C would have been so much better if the options didn't stick for a couple of seconds every time you pressed focus and let go. If it worked like Remilia's options do, it would be great.
...You do realize that MarisaC would be worthless if the options immediately went back to Marisa every unfocus right? I can prove this with a single card: VoWG. Enjoy either focusing the whole time or doing half damage the whole time. Then there's how there's the unfocus-focus movement for quickly moving across the screen while keeping the options at strategic locations(Stage 6 is trivialized with MarisaC). And it's the most powerful shot type in the game barring MarisaBugged and ReimuC shotgun. The MoF Demo actually had Marisa's options instantly going back to her when unfocused.

Basically, MarisaC is actually one of the best shot types.

Best ones:
LLS MarisaA: It's slightly weaker then MarisaBugged, and has spread. It's also legal, and no need to unfocus for it's RAW POWER. =V
MoF MarisaC: Extreme versatility. High Damage.
SA ReimuA: High Damage, Graze Bomb. Good Enough for SA's stages.
UFO SanaeB: High Damage, Awesome (and Graze) Bomb, Spread, Splash
PCB SakuyaB: I'm pretty sure this shot type has great potential or something. Powerful, versatile.

Worst ones:
SA ReimuB: Isn't it sad, Suika? ;_; The wisps are too drunk to home until they hit something, and then it still can't home. Weak too, which is weird for an oni.
SA MarisaC: Great for survival, except ReimuA has much more attack for slightly less survival ability, and more spread too.
MoF ReimuC: It's basically PCB/EoSD Needles Reimu unfocused, but without the ability to focus, and even crappier far away damage and spread. So great shotgunning power. And that's it. In a game with little opportunities to shotgun.
IN Magic Team: Marisa and Alice as a Team frankly sucks. Unfocus is more powerful then focus, both aren't even that powerful. Only saving grace is MAlice Cannon.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Matsuri on October 15, 2009, 02:48:50 AM
It works just fine with Remilia in IN. I don't see why I'd have that much of a problem with it if Marisa's just acted like hers. After all, VoWG is just one spell card.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 15, 2009, 02:50:30 AM
The piercing, brah. It can kill legions.
But that apparently "isn't good enough" to count when we're talking about Marisa's lasers in other games... Honestly, the only time I've seen people say piercing counts for anythng is in UFO, and that's only because UFOs tend to get obscured in later levels by swarms of enemes... And Nazrin's final spellcard.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ebarrett on October 15, 2009, 02:53:42 AM
It works just fine with Remilia in IN. I don't see why I'd have that much of a problem with it if Marisa's just acted like hers. After all, VoWG is just one spell card.

If Remilia's familiars acted like MarisaC's options, I'd say solo Remilia would be a no-brainer for best shottype  :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 15, 2009, 02:54:51 AM
It works just fine with Remilia in IN. I don't see why I'd have that much of a problem with it if Marisa's just acted like hers. After all, VoWG is just one spell card.
Marisa's frost cannons don't have the range of Remilia's bats(?) though... If you dropped Remilia's options on the bottom of the screen they could still hit the boss. Do that with Marisa C and they won't do much other than sit there and look pretty.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Edible on October 15, 2009, 02:56:51 AM
MarisaB in MoF before the patch is unquestionably the best shot type. <_<
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sodium on October 15, 2009, 02:57:37 AM
It works just fine with Remilia in IN. I don't see why I'd have that much of a problem with it if Marisa's just acted like hers. After all, VoWG is just one spell card.
There's more cards that require the options to stay there while you unfocus and focus quickly, you know. Remilia's worked because the shots reached the top of the screen; MarisaC's are close range.

Cut by two people saying the same thing. Also, the MoF Demo had the options acting like Remilia's, but ZUN changed it. Take that as you will.

Edible: What patch? There hasn't been a patch to fix it, except for the Vsync, but that's not official.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ?q on October 15, 2009, 02:58:24 AM
Quote
So great shotgunning power. And that's it. In a game with little opportunities to shotgun.
Actually, Aya, Kanako, and Suwako are reasonably easy to get to midrange.
Also, the MarisaC hate is unfounded, as even moving bosses can be lured into the frostthrowers for eternal shotgunning.

EoSD - Best is ReimuB; worst is probably MarisA.  I don't see a huge difference in damage versus the lack of range and general Marisaness everyone hates.
PCB - Best is MarisA ReimuB; worst is ReimuA.  ReimuA is miserable in this game.
IN - The correct answer is "Remilia solo", not "Border Team".  The worst is Sakuya solo, who is like PCB ReimuA without the guarantee of doing at least negligible damage at any time.
PoFV - Best is Sikieiki.  Worst is probably Youmu, Aya, or Tewi depending on your reflexes.
MoF - MarisaC is the best, although Reimus A and B are worth mentioning.  MarisA is worst.
SA - ReimuA obviously wins.  ReimuB obviously loses.
UFO - I hate SanaeB but have to go with it as best.  MarisaB is easily the worst unless you're a masochist... or score runner, but I repeat myself.

SoEW - I like ReimuC best, but I'm told it's too slow for Hard/Lunatic.  ReimuA is definitely worst though.
PoDD - Best is Yumemi, worst is Kana.
LLS - Best is MarisA, worst is ReimuB.
MS - Best is Mima, worst is Yuka IMHO.

Best in series:  PCB MarisaB SA ReimuA.
Worst in series:  SA ReimuB, although SA ReimuC has that certain hate factor going for it.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Edible on October 15, 2009, 03:06:58 AM
SA Reimu A is hax.  Was even more hax when you could clear entire stages by gapping off the screen.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 03:08:56 AM
Marisa A in EoSD actually has a bomb that isn't a PoS (though I hear it's pro for scoring) and is the only shot type that doesn't need to shotgun to deal maximum damage. That and personally I can't stand Reimu's speed in EoSD and PCB, and I often die simply because I was too slow to evade a bullet. Marisa B is probably the worst shot type in EoSD in the end (even though it was the first I lunatic 1cc'd with) because as fun as Master Spark is, Stardust Reverie can knock out every spell card except Scarlet Meister consistently with one bomb, and anyone saying Marisa B is better than Marisa A in terms of the actual shot are nuts.

And PoDD-wise, I never really rotated much in my lunatic episode except between Reimu and Yumemi, but I'd say logically Ellen is the worst. Slow speed and criminally slow charge speed. She has an above average boss attack, but against the AI all is nothing.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ?q on October 15, 2009, 03:15:52 AM
*notices that me and donut are arguing about the same thing in different directions re: EoSD shot types*

If you're going to say that charge time is all that matters in PoDD, Rikako is easily the loser.  Her Lv. 1 attack may not even hit things that are directly in its path, plus it takes forever to charge.
I picked Kana because all of her attacks go in straight lines (usually straight down), so they HAVE to swarm you in order to be difficult.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sen on October 15, 2009, 03:29:41 AM
although SA ReimuC has that certain hate factor going for it.
Really? ReimuC's difficult to use (then again, almost every SA shottype is), but she's certainly not the worst. SA ReimuB is horrendous, I will agree on that, though.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Seian Verian on October 15, 2009, 03:36:09 AM
Marisa B is probably the worst shot type in EoSD in the end

...What. Alright, first of all, she's the only shot type with piercing, and her damage isn't THAT bad, even with the lasers down. Homing is lolweak, and Marisa B happens to have the best bomb in the game in every way. I suppose that Reimu B and Marisa C's damage might be good enough to outweigh all of Marisa B's beneifits, MAYBE, but... Seriously, she's not as bad as Reimu A <_<
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: LHCling on October 15, 2009, 03:40:52 AM
Dammit you guys posted a lot while I was doing various tasks.

Hm, guess it's time to just make quick generalizations then  :V
Keep in mind that this is my opinion on things. Also, read the topic title properly please?

Eh, MoF ReimuC and UFO MarisaB would probably be good for stuff like easy-mode scorerunning, for those strange people who are into that kind of thing (like Heartbeam and, uh... Heartbeam).
Nope. ReimuC is just that horrible. Spread does nothing to most of the stage enemies. You can't even shotgun a sizable number of Spell Cards, and when you can't, you deal the lowest damage out of all the shot types. I'm not going to even talk about unfocusing.

MarisaB for UFO... not so much. You can score with just about all shot types (including the "dreaded" MarisaA) if you know how to.

I'll make a judgment based on these aspects:


It should be quite obvious as to why I chose the shot type(s) as being either the best or the worst. If you can't figure out why, then too bad play more  :V
Really, if you're participating in this, you should know why I would choose a shot type to be the best / worst
.
Additionally, I won't include the Phantasmagoria games, but I will add the PC-98 ones.

Best Windows shot type overall: Scarlet Devil Team (IN)
Worst Windows shot type overall: ReimuC (MoF)

Best PC-98 shot type overall: Mima (MS)
Worst PC-98 shot type overall: ReimuA (LLS)

I do not consider the "fun factor" of each shot type.

Also:
:munch:
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 03:56:53 AM
...What. Alright, first of all, she's the only shot type with piercing, and her damage isn't THAT bad, even with the lasers down.

Piercing is virtually useless in EoSD, I'm not gonna lie. I struggle to think of more than one instance where that would make a noticeable difference.

Quote
Marisa B happens to have the best bomb in the game in every way.

Quote
Stardust Reverie can knock out every spell card except Scarlet Meister consistently with one bomb

Quote
Marisa C

???
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: theshirn on October 15, 2009, 04:10:12 AM
Best Windows shot type overall: Scarlet Devil Team (IN)
Worst Windows shot type overall: ReimuC (MoF)

Best PC-98 shot type overall: Mima (MS)
Worst PC-98 shot type overall: ReimuA (LLS)
Uhhh...Remilia, used properly, is great, but I don't think she's good enough to overwrite Sakuya's terribility in IN.  She really is just that bad.

For all the factors you listed, I'd have to go with either SA ReimuA or either PCB Sakuya.  SanaeB also gets an honorable mention.  Worst isn't an argument just because MoF ReimuC is just that laughable.

For IN, I'll have to agree with Mima for best, but I usually run ReimuA for Lunatic LLS, and she has stood me in good stead for the most part.  Compare her to A or B in SoEW...I don't think it's fair to call her the worst.  I'd give to one of those.

wait can I give it to tHRtP Reimu

please
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 04:20:14 AM
IMO Reimu B's the best in SoEW. >_> Choosing Reimu C for lunatic will just get you killed after stage 2 thanks to the enemies forcing you into a corner with their aimed bullets with no escape (something I'm tempted to name "Cave syndrome" :V). That and she's too slow to dodge many of the patterns. Once you reach max power Reimu B dominates the game with both absolute range and decent damage output.

Also HRtP Reimu is badASS. You see some bullet out to try an' cap you? SPIN KICK THAT MOTHAFUCKA! Who the hell do you know that can kick bullets? NOBODY, that's who.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: LHCling on October 15, 2009, 04:23:12 AM
Uhhh...Remilia, used properly, is great, but I don't think she's good enough to overwrite Sakuya's terribility in IN.  She really is just that bad.
Sakuya's spread makes certain attacks easier in IN. You also need a Human to do scoring properly, so yeah. Else, I would've probably gone with Remilia Solo, yeah.

...but I usually run ReimuA for Lunatic LLS, and she has stood me in good stead for the most part.  Compare her to A or B in SoEW...I don't think it's fair to call her the worst.  I'd give to one of those.
ReimuA was nominated to be the worst but just barely. Else it would've been MarisaB. SoEW's shot types all have their advantages. That includes the Movement Type.

wait can I give it to tHRtP Reimu

please

HRtP Reimu is awesome as a shot type actually. Considering that your shots cancel most bullets, you get a bomb that does rather nice damage to a certain boss; it also lasts quite a while. You also get a whole load of techniques to use.

Hi 'nut.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Esoterica on October 15, 2009, 05:27:52 AM
Best: MS Mima.  Perfect speed and just enough spread to where you don't need to be within 5 pixels of the target, but don't lose out on too much damage either.  Basically, a simple, straightforward shot that does everything right.

Worst: IN Sakuya solo.  The only thing she's good for is fighting Mokou where her knives do 100% damage to the wings, and even then everyone but Reimu solo does the job better.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ?q on October 15, 2009, 12:24:18 PM
IMO Reimu B's the best in SoEW. >_> Choosing Reimu C for lunatic will just get you killed after stage 2 thanks to the enemies forcing you into a corner with their aimed bullets with no escape (something I'm tempted to name "Cave syndrome" :V). That and she's too slow to dodge many of the patterns. Once you reach max power Reimu B dominates the game with both absolute range and decent damage output.
It may sound obvious, but if I couldn't have ReimuC I would go for ReimuB.  Having one of everything at MAX power is ridiculously awesome.
(And only having it at MAX power is one reason why SoEW fails.)

Quote
Also HRtP Reimu is badASS. You see some bullet out to try an' cap you? SPIN KICK THAT MOTHAFUCKA! Who the hell do you know that can kick bullets? NOBODY, that's who.
The series' resident China Pet disagrees.

I agree with Baity that Sakuya is useful in IN precisely because she's not the only shot type in the Scarlet Team.
You CAN beat the game with Remilia solo, but it's easier with a human with spread.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Garlyle on October 15, 2009, 02:18:44 PM
Thoughts...

*Reimu's Homing in SoEW on Lunatic.  It's not a problem at all on anything less.  But her homing is so good it can go BEHIND her - and everything you destroy shoots aimed bullets at you on Lunatic.  Of course, she's great otherwise 8D

*Why no mention of Netherworld team in IN?  I mean, Yuyuko and Youmu are alright solo, but... Youmu's got a more focused fire and Yuyuko's super spread... and they're the opposite roles that you'd use focused/unfocused.  Especially given IN's time system.  It sorta drives me nuts @_@
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Helix ⑨ on October 15, 2009, 02:47:33 PM
Best: Youmu (IN), MarisaA (UFO), I also like SaneaA (UFO) for her okay damage and really nice homing attacks but I dont think she's the best
Worst: MARISABBBBBB (UFO!!!!!!), Alice (IN), Sakuya (IN)
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: RainfallYoshi on October 15, 2009, 02:55:13 PM
I don't get the hate on UFO MarisaB.

Her bomb doesn't destroy a full HP UFO but it's enough to clear enemies away. That's pretty stinkin' awesome if I do say so myself.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Naut on October 15, 2009, 03:13:13 PM
[MarisaB's] bomb doesn't destroy a full HP UFO but it's enough to clear enemies away. That's pretty stinkin' awesome if I do say so myself.

Considering that every other bomb in the game does the same thing but also does more damage as well as last longer, I'd say it's pretty stinkin' shit.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Iryan on October 15, 2009, 03:40:07 PM
Considering that every other bomb in the game does the same thing but also does more damage as well as last longer, I'd say it's pretty stinkin' shit.
Umm, no. MarisaB's bomb pretty much kills all enemies but leaves the UFO barely alive, ensuring a popped fully soaked UFO. The other bombs kill the UFOs, usually stripping you of extra bombs and lives. So while it appears to be bad, it has it's advantages. Also, the main shot is basically MS Mima with a little less oomph, and something that is less than awesome can still be good. So yeah.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: DgBarca on October 15, 2009, 04:35:09 PM
EoSD :  Best : MarisaA | Worst : ReimuA
PCB : Best : all the B types | Worst : ReimuA
IN : Best : Scarlet Devil Team (Remilia = shots; Sayuka = bombs) | Worst : Sakyua/Yuyuko solo
MoF : Best : ReimuB | Worst : ReimuC (ReimuC is "good" for stage 1/2)
SA : Best : MarisaB | Worst : ReimuB
UFO : Best : ReimuA | Worst : MarisaB

SoEW : Reimu C, but the low speed is rawr
LLS : MARISA A IS THE BEST SHOTTYPE !...lolhax
MS : Mima | Worst : Marisa (I can't play with her it's awful, my eyes)

Best ever : SA MarisaB. Tactical and so awesome
Worst ever : EoSD ReimuA IT IS NOT HOMING, IT CHANGE EVERY TIME !
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 15, 2009, 05:11:55 PM
*Why no mention of Netherworld team in IN?  I mean, Yuyuko and Youmu are alright solo, but... Youmu's got a more focused fire and Yuyuko's super spread... and they're the opposite roles that you'd use focused/unfocused.  Especially given IN's time system.  It sorta drives me nuts @_@
Personally, I find that homing and spread types are good when you can't get directly under the boss, and Youmu's option is good to use to help deal with multiple spawn points, so despite seeming strange it actually works out in practice (or at least it does for me). It's also easier to use them together since if you solo with Youmu you'll only do half your normal damage if you can't get Myon lined up with the boss, and focusing won't reset its position (which can be bothersome for bosses like Reisen, who require swapping between focused and unfocused to deal with her illusion spells, and since she likes to move around a lot you might not be able to get directly under her as often as you'd like).
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: LHCling on October 15, 2009, 08:33:30 PM
Umm, no. MarisaB's bomb pretty much kills all enemies but leaves the UFO barely alive, ensuring a popped fully soaked UFO. The other bombs kill the UFOs, usually stripping you of extra bombs and lives. So while it appears to be bad, it has it's advantages. Also, the main shot is basically MS Mima with a little less oomph, and something that is less than awesome can still be good. So yeah.
If you time the bomb / summoning of the UFO properly, you can ensure the maximum number of bombs / lives / points anyway.

MS Mima essentially outclasses all shot types at long range (which MarisaB-UFO cannot do).
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: canobiecrazy on October 15, 2009, 08:58:06 PM
The only good use I can think of for UFO Marisa B would be a Phantasmagoria game.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Doomsday on October 15, 2009, 10:49:16 PM
Best: Reimu B (or whichever Reimu that uses Needles)
Worst: Sakuya Solo in IN maybe? i dunno
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sapz on October 15, 2009, 10:56:04 PM
Worst PC-98 shot type overall: ReimuA (LLS)
ReimuA? Really? I'm not seeing it. Admittedly I haven't played around all that much with PC-98, but I cleared LLS Lunatic with no real difficulty on my first not-ragequit attempt with her, and I remember her doing a lot more damage that I was expecting; IIRC it was only slightly less than what I was getting with MarisaA, but with all the benefits of homing (and all the benefits of fighting Marisa over Reimu but I guess that doesn't count). Is there something I'm missing here? :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: LHCling on October 15, 2009, 11:30:24 PM
Let's compare.

SoEW: All the shot types have their advantages. Movement Type can be used and "abused". Defense has homing among other things. Offense has damage. Game-breaking, considering that you can do things like take out midbosses before they can even fire.

LLS:
RA - Eh. Watch.
RB - Full-screen coverage, better shotgun capability (you can shotgun a surprising number of bosses), at the cost of having slightly less attack power at long-distances. Yuka's First Phase still goes down in 3 cycles (+bombs). Overall, more useful than ReimuA.
MA - Nothing to be said here.
MB - The "weaker" version of MA. Shot is consistent in power though.

MS:
Reimu's homing is more useful in MS than LLS. However, that Homing bug...  ;_;
Marisa still can do ridiculous amounts of damage. Swinging around randomly can kill lots of enemies too.
Mima, heh.
Yuka's bomb + overall survivability when you get to higher Power Levels.

I labeled ReimuA (LLS) as being the worst simply because it gets outshined.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ?q on October 15, 2009, 11:39:21 PM
Whoever said that Yuyuko solo was one of the worst in IN is basically wrong. :P

My major problem with MarisaB's bomb (UFO) is that it gives you zero grace period - once the shiny graphical stuff is over, you can and will die if something hits you.  And the shiny stuff fades very quickly.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Blackraptor on October 16, 2009, 01:27:47 AM
Best shot Type from my experience (not saying much) are as follows:

EoSD: Never had the time to play it sadly...

PCB:
Best - SakuyaB: The ability to spread around her shots in unfocused mode and the sheer punch of her focused mode is great. The bombs are pretty useful since, while not damaging, can knock out all the bullets on the screen and turn them to points and cherries.

Worst - ReimuA: Homing is great if you want to have a feel of the game if it's your first time playing PCB but it becomes more of a liability on later stages and higher difficulties.

IN
Best - Marisa: Only because of Master Spark and the fact her shot is the one I'm most comfortable using.

Worst - Sakuya: Fighting bosses with Sakuya is not fun.

PoFV: Again...never played yet...

MOF
Best - ReimuB: Classic Needle Reimu is always useful.

Worst - ReimuC: So much I haven't even gotten past Momiji with this shot.

SA
Best - MarisaA: Yes...I'm not kidding. Her shot is my favorite in the game since you can make sentry towers out of the dolls in tight spots.

Worst - ReimuB: Kinda nerfed and the bomb is something I didn't even know had an offense until someone pointed it out.

UFO
Best - MarisaA: Master Spark slows you down but a 4.00 powered laser shot from Marisa is amazing in the later stages of the game.

Worst - MarisaB: I tried to use this effectively...I really did. I tried my best to find SOMETHING redeeming to this shot but alas...it's really bad...
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Recon 5 on October 16, 2009, 02:17:24 AM
Worst - MarisaB: I tried to use this effectively...I really did. I tried my best to find SOMETHING redeeming to this shot but alas...it's really bad...

You can fill up UFOs easier since her bomb clears the screen without killing them, and backshot is useful for some of those streaming stages when you need to go around stuff.

Still the worst shot but not completely useless.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Blackraptor on October 16, 2009, 02:35:59 AM
You can fill up UFOs easier since her bomb clears the screen without killing them, and backshot is useful for some of those streaming stages when you need to go around stuff.

Still the worst shot but not completely useless.

I didn't even realize that was possible...though that is because I almost never bomb at Touhou in general and just try to graze even that which is ungrazeable...one of my biggest weaknesses as a player but I'm learning...slowly...
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sen on October 18, 2009, 01:10:24 AM
Okay, after some extensive PCB playing today, I have changed my stance on the game: MarisaB is the worst shot type in the game.

What the hell does the shot even do? ReimuA is horribly weak, but at least she's useful for getting into the game. SakuyaA is a terrible shottype, but like ReimuA, the lock-on helps people get into the game before they realize it's terrible/boring and move onto a better type.

MarisaB?

No.

I cannot find a single good thing about this shottype except the bombs. The lasers are terrible at dealing damage unfocused (which, y'know, you want to do for most of PCB), and when you focus, your range is roughly three pixels wide. The Cherry gain is terrible and the loss for bombing/dying is even higher than MarisaA.

The only redeeming factor I can see in the shot is the bombs. Non-Directional Laser is absurdly powerful if you bodyslam the boss, and Master Spark is Master Spark. However, this is not EoSD; those bombs are going to destroy your score, and Marisa only even gets two bombs at base.

There is nothing else even remotely good about this shottype beyond the bomb damage.

>:E
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Suikama on October 18, 2009, 01:29:38 AM
Worst shottype ever is VIVIT Anything
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Esoterica on October 18, 2009, 01:30:25 AM
Okay, after some extensive PCB playing today, I have changed my stance on the game: MarisaB is the worst shot type in the game.

What the hell does the shot even do? ReimuA is horribly weak, but at least she's useful for getting into the game. SakuyaA is a terrible shottype, but like ReimuA, the lock-on helps people get into the game before they realize it's terrible/boring and move onto a better type.

MarisaB?

No.

I cannot find a single good thing about this shottype except the bombs. The lasers are terrible at dealing damage unfocused (which, y'know, you want to do for most of PCB), and when you focus, your range is roughly three pixels wide. The Cherry gain is terrible and the loss for bombing/dying is even higher than MarisaA.

The only redeeming factor I can see in the shot is the bombs. Non-Directional Laser is absurdly powerful if you bodyslam the boss, and Master Spark is Master Spark. However, this is not EoSD; those bombs are going to destroy your score, and Marisa only even gets two bombs at base.

There is nothing else even remotely good about this shottype beyond the bomb damage.

>:E
I actually forgot that shot type existed.

Yeah, it only exists for the bombs, which doesn't exactly turn out to be of any real benefit in this game :c 

Though, the only real screen-cleaning bombs that don't belong to MarisaB that also do any respectable amounts of damage are Stardust Reverie and Indiscriminate, so...
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Bananamatic on October 18, 2009, 01:31:12 AM
StB Aya is EXTREMELY bad.
Too fast or too slow. And you can't change it :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Suikama on October 18, 2009, 01:31:42 AM
StB Aya is EXTREMELY bad.
Too fast or too slow. And you can't change it :V
Also doesn't even have a bomb!
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sapz on October 18, 2009, 01:32:36 AM
Also doesn't even have a bomb!
Or, er, a shot. :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Suikama on October 18, 2009, 01:33:20 AM
Or, er, a shot. :V
Well at least she can clear bullets every once in a while.

Too bad she also only has one life :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sapz on October 18, 2009, 01:35:10 AM
Well at least she can clear bullets every once in a while.

Too bad she also only has one life :V
And that's on top of her game being EIGHTY-FIVE STAGES LONG
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ?q on October 18, 2009, 01:49:59 AM
Okay, after some extensive PCB playing today, I have changed my stance on the game: MarisaB is the worst shot type in the game.

What the hell does the shot even do? ReimuA is horribly weak, but at least she's useful for getting into the game. SakuyaA is a terrible shottype, but like ReimuA, the lock-on helps people get into the game before they realize it's terrible/boring and move onto a better type.

MarisaB?

No.

I cannot find a single good thing about this shottype except the bombs. The lasers are terrible at dealing damage unfocused (which, y'know, you want to do for most of PCB), and when you focus, your range is roughly three pixels wide. The Cherry gain is terrible and the loss for bombing/dying is even higher than MarisaA.

The only redeeming factor I can see in the shot is the bombs. Non-Directional Laser is absurdly powerful if you bodyslam the boss, and Master Spark is Master Spark. However, this is not EoSD; those bombs are going to destroy your score, and Marisa only even gets two bombs at base.

There is nothing else even remotely good about this shottype beyond the bomb damage.

>:E
MarisaB is awesome.
1) Focus
2) Stay under the boss
3) Basically don't move
...and you can drain away enemy lifebars very quickly.  She's like SakuyA, except preferring cheap damage over cheap range.  (Their Cherry rates are comparable IIRC.)

ReimuA is good for "getting into the game"?  She's really not; that's what SakuyA is for :V
And if that was your best reason for justifying her existence, yes, she's the worst in the game.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Sen on October 18, 2009, 02:23:03 AM
MarisaB is awesome.
1) Focus
2) Stay under the boss
3) Basically don't move
...and you can drain away enemy lifebars very quickly.  She's like SakuyA, except preferring cheap damage over cheap range.  (Their Cherry rates are comparable IIRC.)

Which MarisaA can also do, only with more power, (slightly) more range, a higher Cherry rate, and a lower Cherry loss for bombing/dying. Oh, and MarisaA can actually do damage without focusing :V

SakuyaA's Cherry rate is abysmal, having a comparable rate to hers is not something to be proud of, especially considering how both shots need to be focused to do anything resembling damage. Focusing cuts their Cherry gain to roughly 10% IIRC, and although that applies to every shot in the game, it's especially bad when their rate is so terrible already.

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ReimuA is good for "getting into the game"?  She's really not; that's what SakuyA is for :V
And if that was your best reason for justifying her existence, yes, she's the worst in the game.
ReimuA and SakuyaA are terrible shottypes overall, but they're both very good for beginners just learning the basics of Touhou. Auto-homing shots allow the player to focus almost purely on dodging, and not have to worry about hitting the enemies until they've improved their dodging skills. Outside of that, they're both garbage, I don't think anyone's going to debate that.


I guess my problem with MarisaB is not that she's a bad shottype, she just doesn't have anything super-useful that only she can do.
-ReimuB is solidly powerful, has good range, a small hitbox, and decent Cherry
-MarisaA does the most damage in the game per shot and has the highest Cherry gain
-SakuyaB is broken in every way and fantastic for both scoring and survival
-ReimuA and SakuyaA are good for learning the game, at which point it's better to move onto a better shottype

I just can't find anything MarisaB does that another shot can't do much better. She's strong when she's focused and has powerful bombs, that's not up for debate, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: ?q on October 18, 2009, 03:14:42 AM
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-ReimuA and SakuyaA are good for learning the game, at which point it's better to move onto a better shottype

I just can't find anything MarisaB does that another shot can't do much better.
I contend that ReimuB is better for learning the game than ReimuA (definitely) and debatably SakuyA.
So putting ReimuA or SakuyA on a pedestal for being newb-friendly is a lie.

Similarly I would put MarisaB far above ReimuA on account of actually being able to do damage.  Homing isn't that useful in PCB tbh, and can actually make some things more difficult (Stage 4).

PCB has two tiers of shot types--
--Play for score/Cherry/Borders - ReimuB, MarisA, SakuyaB
--Play for fun/masochism - ReimuA, MarisaB, SakuyA
...and I think that it's most fair to compare the shots within tiers.

(Much as I would like to bash SakuyA because all the cool kids are doing it, she's better than the other two in her tier.)
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Esoterica on October 18, 2009, 04:44:27 AM
I just can't find anything MarisaB does that another shot can't do much better.
Fighting Yuyuko after the fan comes out. :V
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Recon 5 on October 18, 2009, 05:09:33 AM
@ u?: I guess that ANY 'auto-homing' shot is considered newb friendly even if it can only chip a boss at most. It's a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with since I always clear a game with homing Reimu first before moving to any other shot type.   
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 18, 2009, 06:39:49 AM
Fighting Yuyuko after the fan comes out. :V
As well as instantly destroying enemies that are lined up to prevent the ones in the back from firing (which mostly happens in stages 2 and 3, but still), as well as having slightly better spread than marisa A.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Serela on October 18, 2009, 01:20:11 PM
MarisaB is MarisaA with a little more range when unfocused, mega-rape bombs, and a tiny bit more power vs. Yuyuko. Penetration is helpful, but only marginally.

Still, MarisaB is fairly powerful, so she doesn't suck; but she isn't really the best choice. In Extra/Phantasm though, she loses uber doom bomb damage, and becomes almost completely inferior to ReimuB/MarisaA.

Also, about SakuyaB; yes, she probably has the best shot in the game, but to try to balance it she has a WHY AM I DYING focus speed and her bombs deal almost no damage (Although she gets 4 so that's nearly already balanced...)
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 18, 2009, 08:29:29 PM
Still, MarisaB is fairly powerful, so she doesn't suck; but she isn't really the best choice. In Extra/Phantasm though, she loses uber doom bomb damage, and becomes almost completely inferior to ReimuB/MarisaA.
It's not just damage that makes Marisa B's bombs good, its also duration since they last a good while. This means they can really help during tougher parts of the stage as well as for stalling during some of the more annoying cards.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: Esoterica on October 18, 2009, 11:30:05 PM
as well as having slightly better spread than marisa A.
While unfocused.

Except her unfocused damage is abysmal.

Which is bad, because unfocused damage is extremely vital in PCB, because you shoot unfocused frequently for cherry.

And her cherry gain is abysmal as well.

To top it off, she loses a lot of cherry on death.

And I'm not even going to bother retouching on the whole "piercing is useless in PCB" thing.

It's not just damage that makes Marisa B's bombs good, its also duration since they last a good while. This means they can really help during tougher parts of the stage as well as for stalling during some of the more annoying cards.
Having two Master Sparks isn't worth three Evil Sealing Circles or four Indescriminates, if you ask me.  And Non-Directional Laser doesn't last all that long while being the powerhouse of the two; you could argue that that just means Master Spark is the bomb of choice when going for survival and Non-Directional Laser when looking for damage, but unless you're deliberately bombing something you aren't going to get a choice in the matter.

Plus, with less cherry gain you'll have less supernatural borders; coupled with two bombs, you aren't going to have as much protection overall, and when you do have it you're going to be forced to use most of said protection continuing to have your bomb active after what you needed the invincibility for is long gone already.
Title: Re: Best/Worst Shottypes in the Series?
Post by: AlexX Unlimited on October 19, 2009, 12:07:58 AM
While unfocused.

Except her unfocused damage is abysmal.
My point was that that helped during stages. Unless its a death fairy, it doesn't usually matter how much damage a type does to generic enemies since they're going to die shortly all the same.

Quote
Which is bad, because unfocused damage is extremely vital in PCB, because you shoot unfocused frequently for cherry.
Er, is it really that bad? I know you have to get both lasers to hit the enemy for reasonable damage, but I you make it sound like it does nearly no damage at all...

Quote
To top it off, she loses a lot of cherry on death.
Doesn't that happen for both Marisa types, though?

Quote
And I'm not even going to bother retouching on the whole "piercing is useless in PCB" thing.
Yeah, I know, it doesn't seem to count for anything unless the game is UFO... >.<

Quote
Having two Master Sparks isn't worth three Evil Sealing Circles or four Indescriminates, if you ask me.  And Non-Directional Laser doesn't last all that long while being the powerhouse of the two; you could argue that that just means Master Spark is the bomb of choice when going for survival and Non-Directional Laser when looking for damage, but unless you're deliberately bombing something you aren't going to get a choice in the matter.
True, though I guess I can't say much on this since I struggle to deathbomb even just half the time...

Quote
Plus, with less cherry gain you'll have less supernatural borders; coupled with two bombs, you aren't going to have as much protection overall, and when you do have it you're going to be forced to use most of said protection continuing to have your bomb active after what you needed the invincibility for is long gone already.
Stalling as long as the master spark does usually doesn't dump you in the middle of the next attack phase, though I admit I  have little experience with that during higher difficulties since I suck and nearly no Extra/Phantasm experience since I completely fail the Extra stage and can barely make it to Ran, let alone past her first few attacks...

I don't know, I guess I'm just defending the 'useless' shot type because I barely managed to 1CC PCB with Marisa B as it is (largely due to her double damage to cut Yuyuko's attacks short), so I really don't want to be forced to do it again with a shot type I have nowhere near the experience I do with Marisa B...