Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Runty on September 17, 2009, 04:25:18 PM
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I know it might be a little early for this, but I'm still curious. Has a competitive tier list been made yet for UNL?
If not, we might as well use this topic to discuss some tier placement. Take note, though, that I don't play fighting games (aside from Smash Bros) and as such don't know the mechanics that well.
I'm pretty sure, however, that public opinion will place Youmu at the top, since she wasn't really nerfed in UNL.
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There's a Japanese tier list out there somewhere, but I neglected to save it.
Off the top of my head, I remember top tier went Suika - Patchouli (I have a hard time believing this) - Iku - Youmu, Okuu's mid tier, and the rest of the newbies are low tier (except Suwako, who is currently placing worse than IaMP Meiling competitively).
I'll see if I can locate the full list.
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There's only one requirement to being high tier in UNL: DP
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There's a Japanese tier list out there somewhere, but I neglected to save it.
Off the top of my head, I remember top tier went Suika - Patchouli (I have a hard time believing this) - Iku - Youmu, Okuu's mid tier, and the rest of the newbies are low tier (except Suwako, who is currently placing worse than IaMP Meiling competitively).
I'll see if I can locate the full list.
Really? I would've thought that Youmu's nasty melee mixups would easily make her top tier. But Suika? I know she hits hard, but isn't she also slow? And what about Aya? Wasn't she second place in SWR?
As for Okuu, sure, I can believe her being mid-tier. She's big and doesn't move, and has lousy melee, all in exchange for ranged nukes (literally). As for Suwako, yeah, she's too screwed up to be a serious fighter.
What about China? Where does she place in this?
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Actually, Aya was top in SWR. Her damage output and a few of her default specials were nerfed considerably, in exchange for marginally faster movement speed. Suika got a damage buff (why the hell they did that is beyond me) which easily made her top tier.
If I remember correctly, Meiling's near the bottom of low tier. She got buffed in some aspects, but she still lacks offensive bullets and graze attacks, plus her melee range is pitiful.
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Actually, Aya was top in SWR. Her damage output and a few of her default specials were nerfed considerably, in exchange for marginally faster movement speed. Suika got a damage buff (why the hell they did that is beyond me) which easily made her top tier.
If I remember correctly, Meiling's near the bottom of low tier. She got buffed in some aspects, but she still lacks offensive bullets and graze attacks, plus her melee range is pitiful.
I guess I shouldn't have expected otherwise. China will always be China, after all. ;D
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... The fuck?. Since when did having short range make you low tier?. And since when did being low tier make you a joke character?. (http://dustloop.com/forums/images/smilies/custom/psyduck.gif)
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Found the list. I translated it (left) and organized it (right) with tiers based on the largest breaks in percentage.
The numbers are the percent of matchups won in competitive play.
(http://www.imgplace.com/img230/2218/74tierlist.png)
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Found the list. I translated it (left) and organized it (right) with tiers based on the largest breaks in percentage.
The numbers are the percent of matchups won in competitive play.
(http://www.imgplace.com/img230/2218/74tierlist.png)
WHAT?! Sakuya's almost bottom tier? How the hell did that happen?
Ouch on Suwako's low win rate. And I'd have thought Cirno would do better in all this. Oh well, poor 9-ball.
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Found the list. I translated it (left) and organized it (right) with tiers based on the largest breaks in percentage.
The numbers are the percent of matchups won in competitive play.
(http://www.imgplace.com/img230/2218/74tierlist.png)
WHAT?! Sakuya's almost bottom tier? about time that happened!
Fixed. :toot:
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WHAT?! Sakuya's almost bottom tier? How the hell did that happen?
-low damage output
-knives increase both proration and limit by ungodly amounts
-despite what you'd think, most of her attacks are laggy and punishable
-all-around useless spellcards (the new ones are quite nice though)
-Strict timing on combos
Just to name a few.
...though all of these problems existed in SWR too and she ended up rather high on that list...
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Found the list. I translated it (left) and organized it (right) with tiers based on the largest breaks in percentage.
The numbers are the percent of matchups won in competitive play.
(http://www.imgplace.com/img230/2218/74tierlist.png)
WHAT?! Sakuya's almost bottom tier? about time that happened!
Fixed. :toot:
Jerkass...
Dang, and Sakuya's so nasty in IaMP. Then again, so was Remilia.
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Tierwhore...
Any match involving Sakuya is boring unless they epicly fail with timestop.
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I'm a bit impressed at Patch's jump from low tier in IaMP, what happened in SWR to make her better (especially given it's EASIER to get out of bullet pressure than before)?
Also, hey, Yukari's not on that list. Is she Gapped Tier?
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There are two things about the tier list that jump out at me the most.
-Being a Suwako main, I don't think I'll need to worry about her getting nerfed :V
-Whenever I use Patch and win, I can expect a response along the lines of "you only won because your character is top tier bawwwwwwww".
In short, I'm going to miss bottom tier Patch :<
@ Stuffman: I'm as confused as you are. She burns through spirit faster thanks to the orb system, she doesn't have tornados anymore, and she was low tier in SWR too.
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The numbers are the percent of matchups won in competitive play.
That list, as far as I know, took all different player levels into account, and is nowhere near a tier list made by "competitive high-level players". When I look at it, it's more like a list of how easy a character is to play rather than how strong a character is in comparison to the whole cast - just look at Suwako's placement and go figure.
Also, Yukari missing.
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Also, hey, Yukari's not on that list. Is she Gapped Tier?
She was hiding from me, I had to reread the list a few times :x
51%, just like Reisen.
nacho: Though that'd make sense for Suwako and Patch, the rest lines up in relation to the SWR list with buffs/nerfs considered. For example, Tenshi isn't easy to play (unless you're a fan of LOLROCKS), and she got quite a few nice buffs. Hence, she moved up on the list. Aya's still as brainless as before and she's mid tier now.
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Ugh. The idea of "tier lists" makes me gag on sight. (I've spent too much time in the Meltan community.) But I'm also one for YAY! DISCUSSION! so I'm going to post this:
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9048/unltiers01.png)
And now, to hack it to pieces with help from a friend's analysis.
This is that stupid chart from /jp/ that started this whole thing. It's an aggregate of every match done on the ranked server there-- ie: including garbage players.
Suwako is hard to use. I WONDER WHY SHE'S LOW
So basically that entire chart is completely worthless. It's like an ease of use chart. It has no relevance on character balance. Give it some time, wait for them to come up with a chart that includes only the top such-and-such % of players.
This happened with SWR too, by the way. Reisen was trash tier for the first few months, then people started figuring the game out and she jumped three tiers - but only on the charts that included the top 30% of players. She still stunk for the global chart.
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"Massive Chart"
This is that stupid chart from /jp/ that started this whole thing. It's an aggregate of every match done on the ranked server there-- ie: including garbage players.
EVERYONE LETS GO AND MAKE SUWAKO TOP TEIR VIA PURPOSELY LOSING TO SUWAKO!
Ok just kidding.
According to this innacurate list aside from Suika I like using Low or Mid Tier characters and as for Suwako... I would be suprised if I ever saw her higher than worst on a Tier List.
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Suwako should get her own unranked tier. My winning rate is 52.8% with her, though the players I fight are no where near top players.
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That Iku/Yuyuko match-up is bullcrap. I play a really good Iku and I have a friend who plays a really good Yuyuko and he owns me 95% of the time.
Also, I'm sad that Sakuya is so bad and Aya was nerfed. Cirno is right about where she should be.
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That Iku/Yuyuko match-up is bullcrap. I play a really good Iku and I have a friend who plays a really good Yuyuko and he owns me 95% of the time.
Iku's C bullets (among other things) completely devour her butterflies, and Iku's melee and 236/623 outclass Yuyuko's in terms of range. Thus, Yuyuko's remaining options are:
A. j.2A and hope you don't eat a 2C, 22 or 623
B. Spam C wisps
C. Sword of Hisou to force a Typhoon, which Iku can still guard during by using her 623.
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Tiers are for queers.
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Shut your goddamn mouth you scrub.
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We're down to senseless name calling already?
We didn't even make it to page 2, dammit.
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Iku's C bullets (among other things) completely devour her butterflies, and Iku's melee and 236/623 outclass Yuyuko's in terms of range.
Yeah, I learned recently that 5C works best, although I still habitually use 6C. Once I started using 5C more things improved quickly, but maybe it's just psycological for now. Also he spams C wisps a lot which is pretty annoying and up-close, Yuyuko's melee is faster, I think. There's a little bit of lag which might be making all the difference.
I think I just need to learn to QCF more reliably.
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The tournament tier list is available. Actually, it's been available since Oct. 31.
(http://swr.mizuumi.net/images/5/55/Soku103JPTiers.png)
Our glutton ghost princess got first place? Yay!
And our loli-frog goddess is still in dead last. Poor Suwako, gero...
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I knew Meiling was bad ._.
Won't stop me though <3
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Komachi is A-tier! Woohoo. My dreams have been fulfilled.
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So the UNL characters make up 5 of the bottom 7? Huh.
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Sakuya is a really low-tier character? Really?
And although I like playing the 5 new UNL characters, they really do have a lot of flaws. Not surprised to see them in the lowest tiers. I'm sure Suwako wouldn't be so low tier though if they only counted really good Suwako players, she's simply awkward to use; but so evil in good hands.
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So the UNL characters make up 5 of the bottom 7? Huh.
Doesn't surprise me other than Cirno I see nothing really great about the newbies.
I mostly use yuyuko, pacthu, youmu, or remi. Not because I'm a tier whore, but they just preform better.
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Sakuya is a really low-tier character? Really?
Sakuya's damage is pitiful, her knives cause ridiculous amounts of proration, and she limits almost instantly. Combine that with short-range and awkward melee and specials, and it's a miracle she isn't bottom tier.
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Sakuya's damage is pitiful, her knives cause ridiculous amounts of proration, and she limits almost instantly. Combine that with short-range and awkward melee and specials, and it's a miracle she isn't bottom tier.
She was below Meiling in the old tier list so :V
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What really surprises me is how big of a drop Patchouli had. Ever since Soku I've felt she's high tier at least, but with this list she plummeted to to mid/low.
I also think Sanae has more potential than low/bottom tier. She's got a lot of great tools, but her projectiles can be a little awkward. Not high tier, but I think as time goes on she'll move up some.
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Man, I had no idea Youmu was so high, nor Meiling so low.
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Doesn't surprise me other than Cirno I see nothing really great about the newbies.
I mostly use yuyuko, pacthu, youmu, or remi. Not because I'm a tier whore, but they just preform better.
In my experience Cirno is awful as well. She has a low damage output with little benefit from charging her moves combined with possibly the lowest-priority bullets in the game. She's a monster if you know how to use her in Diamond Dust, but outside of that, not really.
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What really surprises me is how big of a drop Patchouli had. Ever since Soku I've felt she's high tier at least, but with this list she plummeted to to mid/low.
She was bottom in IaMP and SWR, and she didn't get buffed. She shouldn't even be *that* high.
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She was bottom in IaMP and SWR, and she didn't get buffed. She shouldn't even be *that* high.
I beg to differ.
Patchouli has great air melee, some of the best bullets in the game next to Yuyuko's, perfect flight, a kickass okizeme trap with her Spout, a dangerous free reversal with Emerald City, Fireball that blows through almost all bullets. And then you have Silent Selene (An incredibly dangerous reversal and all around high-utility super that does ridiculous damage), Royal Flare (< 3 Spirit Orbs, see ya 40% life) and Philosopher's Stone (Pretty much unrestricted pressure; even on a bad day it'll do tons of damage).
She has the tools to be top. By far. A lack of a ground mixup game isn't going to ruin her.
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Very different game from IaMP, so her tier placement there doesn't matter.
Any tier claims from SWR are worthless, since very few people seemed to take SWR seriously. Basically you had the IaMP players all collectively vomit for a small handful of good reasons and a lot of reasons that amounted to 'It's not IaMP.' Tiers really came down to, "Oh look, Aya's top, and so is Youmu', and everyone else were below them.
Tensoku fixed SWR's problems, and it seems to be taken more seriously, so as far as I'm concerned we're starting with a clean slate here.
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How about we all remember the old adage:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tiers%20are%20for%20queers
Tiers are for Queers
TR4Q
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How about we all remember the old adage:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tiers%20are%20for%20queers
Tiers are for Queers
TR4Q
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion.
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Yeah sarcasm is appreciated isn't it...
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I think Suwako should be a at least one rank higher on the tier.
Once you know how to control her, she's not that bad. And she has absolutely insane combos.
I main Suwako, and it's safe to say she's underrated.
However, by no means is she all that great either. Luckily, fans don't need to worry about her being nerfed in Touhou 1.10. And if she is, Tasofro is just trolling us
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I had my first netplay match tonight against a decent Suwako. The player said he didn't really know her, and I was using one of my best characters and it was still a great match. I think it's more likely that most people don't give Suwako a chance because she's so hard to learn.
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I think Suwako should be a at least one rank higher on the tier.
Once you know how to control her, she's not that bad. And she has absolutely insane combos.
I main Suwako, and it's safe to say she's underrated.
However, by no means is she all that great either. Luckily, fans don't need to worry about her being nerfed in Touhou 1.10. And if she is, Tasofro is just trolling us
This tier list is based on tournament results, so yeah most likely no one can use her.
Meiling is actually bad though dammit ;_;
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I think Suwako should be a at least one rank higher on the tier.
Once you know how to control her, she's not that bad. And she has absolutely insane combos.
I main Suwako, and it's safe to say she's underrated.
However, by no means is she all that great either. Luckily, fans don't need to worry about her being nerfed in Touhou 1.10. And if she is, Tasofro is just trolling us
If combo damage were all that mattered, she'd be top tier instantly. With her alt.22, she actually has 0-death combos. The problem is, it's near-impossible to approach or even pressure if you can't get your opponent cornered, her bullets are low priority, and she has no reliable way to deal chip damage to a blocking opponent. Sure she can do 4000+ damage cardless, but the chances you get to do combos like that are extremely rare.
Patchouli has great air melee, some of the best bullets in the game next to Yuyuko's, perfect flight, a kickass okizeme trap with her Spout, a dangerous free reversal with Emerald City, Fireball that blows through almost all bullets. And then you have Silent Selene (An incredibly dangerous reversal and all around high-utility super that does ridiculous damage), Royal Flare (< 3 Spirit Orbs, see ya 40% life) and Philosopher's Stone (Pretty much unrestricted pressure; even on a bad day it'll do tons of damage).
Her air melee's useful and has great range, but if it whiffs you're screwed. It also does next to nothing in terms of spirit damage, but then again guard crushes in SWR/UNL aren't that great anyway.
Her bullets aren't anywhere near as dense or as powerful as they should be. Aside from 6C and 236BC, most characters have bullets that at least trade with hers.
No comment on the flight, her flight is pretty good.
Spout can be highjumped on wakeup, and thanks to Patch's limited melee moveset you can't capitalize on that very well at all. Of course, if they block it's pretty much a guaranteed guardcrush.
Emerald City is terrible compared to just about every other reversal. It's grazable, and there's lots of vulnerable time afterwards if you whiff (or even if it's blocked). And if your opponent's using a graze attack then it doesn't even matter since you just gave them a free counterhit.
Already covered fireball, but one special doesn't make a character.
Silent Selene's great, but it's not like it automatically makes her better than other characters. Plus it has a tendency to drop the opponent, and with limit it's not as useful as in IaMP.
Royal Flare's startup is massive, and everyone except Yukari and Youmu can graze the entire thing if you don't combo into it (which drops it to about 3.5k damage, so at that point you may as well be using St. Elmo's Pillar instead anyway).
Philosopher's Stone can be fun, but opponents I usually play will just abuse graze if they see me whip it out, at which point I'll end up taking more damage than they do by the time it ends.
Let's also not forget that her lack of melee specials means that if you block during any of her combos you can simply dash forward and smash her face in after her melee ends since everything after will be grazable.
Just my two cents on the matter.
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Her air melee's useful and has great range, but if it whiffs you're screwed. It also does next to nothing in terms of spirit damage, but then again guard crushes in SWR/UNL aren't that great anyway.
I would say anyone missing with melee is going to risk being punished. Patchy is no exception.
Her bullets aren't anywhere near as dense or as powerful as they should be. Aside from 6C and 236BC, most characters have bullets that at least trade with hers.
Her bullets don't need to be denser. If her bullets were denser, she'd be god tier. Seriously. She covers so much with her different bullets that it's ridiculous.
Spout can be highjumped on wakeup, and thanks to Patch's limited melee moveset you can't capitalize on that very well at all. Of course, if they block it's pretty much a guaranteed guardcrush.
That's the point, to force them to be where I want them. It wouldn't be a wake-up game if I wasn't trying to manipulate them on wake-up. Also, it's pretty much nothing to stuff someone who's high-jumping with an 8A. And if Patchy can't stuff them, she's still pretty safe. What are they going to do to her while the spout's up?
Emerald City is terrible compared to just about every other reversal. It's grazable, and there's lots of vulnerable time afterwards if you whiff (or even if it's blocked). And if your opponent's using a graze attack then it doesn't even matter since you just gave them a free counterhit.
Terrible how? It has invulnerability frames on startup. What more do you want it to do? It's not like it's a spell card; there's maybe one or two reversals in the game that aren't to begin with. And I know graze attacks are a weakness, so I'm not gonna fling it up when someone's dashing in. EC is used more to take out jump-ins and punish delays.
And even if you want to discount EC entirely, she still has the crystals to work with which are just as, if not better, than the spout is.
Silent Selene's great, but it's not like it automatically makes her better than other characters. Plus it has a tendency to drop the opponent, and with limit it's not as useful as in IaMP.
How useful it is in IaMP means nothing. And whether it drops the opponent or not, it still functions as a reversal and as a link. The threat of her invoking it makes Patchy hard to approach, which is very dangerous with her array of bullets and zoning specials.
Royal Flare's startup is massive, and everyone except Yukari and Youmu can graze the entire thing if you don't combo into it (which drops it to about 3.5k damage, so at that point you may as well be using St. Elmo's Pillar instead anyway).
Sorry, but you're wrong here. Let me explain why.
Bullet attacks cost spirit to graze in Hisou Tensoku, even when ground dashing. If they have 3 or less spirit orbs, it is a -guaranteed- Guard Crush. There is NO way the opponent can stop it. Block, dash, fly, nothing saves them. This alone doesn't sound like a big deal; except Royal Flare is designed so that the first few times it hits delivers the brunt of the damage; REGARDLESS of when those first few hits occur in the spell card.
So it basically means they're taking about 40% life easily nomatter how many hits of the spell they manage to absorb before it hits.
That means Patchy having you in the corner is very dangerous. I'm not proficient in using it this way, but I have most certainly seen its effects on the receiving side.
If you want to just compare the damage; St Elmo's Pillar combo'D off of a spout is 2800. Royal Flare is 4500.
It's a very dangerous spellcard. Yes, this or Silent Selene alone doesn't make a great character, but Patchouli is full of this stuff.
Philosopher's Stone can be fun, but opponents I usually play will just abuse graze if they see me whip it out, at which point I'll end up taking more damage than they do by the time it ends.
Then you need to open them up. You have the ability to fill the screen with BS. You have plenty of room to throw melee at them to open them up. Even in the worst case scenario of them running away from you endlessly; catch them once and you're gonna do at least 2500 damage from that one combo. And running away is easier said than done.
Let's also not forget that her lack of melee specials means that if you block during any of her combos you can simply dash forward and smash her face in after her melee ends since everything after will be grazable.
Yeah, that would be what would happen if I just auto-comboed you in the corner mindlessly. But we're playing a mind-game here; what if I expected you to try dashing and 2A'd you? Or 6A'd?
It isn't really that simple.
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I would say anyone missing with melee is going to risk being punished. Patchy is no exception.
Patch's melee is a LOT laggier than most of the cast's, with j.6A being one of the laggiest melee attacks in the game.
Her bullets don't need to be denser. If her bullets were denser, she'd be god tier. Seriously. She covers so much with her different bullets that it's ridiculous.
By this logic, Okuu, Sakuya, and Reimu should be god tier then. Oh wait, they aren't.
That's the point, to force them to be where I want them. It wouldn't be a wake-up game if I wasn't trying to manipulate them on wake-up. Also, it's pretty much nothing to stuff someone who's high-jumping with an 8A. And if Patchy can't stuff them, she's still pretty safe. What are they going to do to her while the spout's up?
Wakeup 6DC with most characters will deal with anything Patch tries to do, whether it be bullet or melee. 4D or hjc7 will give Patch more distance, but there isn't any good way to punish for that otherwise. And unless you're blind or get counterhit by a random melee attack you're probably not going to blindly walk into the spout after you're out of it.
Terrible how? It has invulnerability frames on startup. What more do you want it to do? It's not like it's a spell card; there's maybe one or two reversals in the game that aren't to begin with. And I know graze attacks are a weakness, so I'm not gonna fling it up when someone's dashing in. EC is used more to take out jump-ins and punish delays.
For starters, Reimu's 623 and alt.421 counter, Marisa's 623, Sakuya's alt.22 counter, Youmu's 623BC and alt.623BC counter, Patch's default 623 and alt.623 (Green Static), both of Yuyuko's alt.623s, Remilia's 623, Yukari's alt.421, Suika's alt.421, both of Reisen's alt.22s, Iku's 623, Tenshi's alt.623, and Meiling's 623 are all reversals, and with the exception of Patch's none of them are grazable, nor do they have as much ending lag.
And even if you want to discount EC entirely, she still has the crystals to work with which are just as, if not better, than the spout is.
Agreed wholly, which is another reason to not use her alt.421s.
How useful it is in IaMP means nothing. And whether it drops the opponent or not, it still functions as a reversal and as a link. The threat of her invoking it makes Patchy hard to approach, which is very dangerous with her array of bullets and zoning specials.
I never said it wasn't a good card, but it's not anything special for what it does, and it has zero priority, meaning if it's blocked, grazed, or if it drops the opponent they're getting a free combo.
Sorry, but you're wrong here. Let me explain why.
Bullet attacks cost spirit to graze in Hisou Tensoku, even when ground dashing. If they have 3 or less spirit orbs, it is a -guaranteed- Guard Crush. There is NO way the opponent can stop it. Block, dash, fly, nothing saves them. This alone doesn't sound like a big deal; except Royal Flare is designed so that the first few times it hits delivers the brunt of the damage; REGARDLESS of when those first few hits occur in the spell card.
The only bullets that cost spirit to graze when not flying are type-2 bullets. Royal Flare isn't Type-2.
So it basically means they're taking about 40% life easily nomatter how many hits of the spell they manage to absorb before it hits.
Again, due to the nature of the card (high-damage hits but massive proration), if it's comboed or guardcrushed into the resulting proration/border resist will cause it to end your combo at 3000-3500 no matter what. Which is pitiful for a 5-card spellcard.
That means Patchy having you in the corner is very dangerous. I'm not proficient in using it this way, but I have most certainly seen its effects on the receiving side.
A good portion of Royal Flare lead-ins start midscreen, but okay.
If you want to just compare the damage; St Elmo's Pillar combo'D off of a spout is 2800. Royal Flare is 4500.
On the other hand, comboing into either off, say, 6DB 5AA 5C (card) will result in 3500 regardless. Except with St. Elmo's Pillar, you're saving two cards which leads to getting your next Pillar that much sooner.
It's a very dangerous spellcard. Yes, this or Silent Selene alone doesn't make a great character, but Patchouli is full of this stuff.
Already covered this above.
Then you need to open them up. You have the ability to fill the screen with BS. You have plenty of room to throw melee at them to open them up. Even in the worst case scenario of them running away from you endlessly; catch them once and you're gonna do at least 2500 damage from that one combo. And running away is easier said than done.
Her standard BNBs do 2500-3200 cardless.
Yeah, that would be what would happen if I just auto-comboed you in the corner mindlessly. But we're playing a mind-game here; what if I expected you to try dashing and 2A'd you? Or 6A'd?
Problem is, 2A and 6A don't cancel from bullets or specials without a White Tower Sword. In the range that you'd even be worrying about an opponent dashing through your blockstrings you wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to wait for the bullet lag to end and the active frames from your melee to kick in, even with 2A. You don't even have time to highjump without getting counterhit. The only real option you have outside of whiffing alt.623 or alt.421 (EC) into a spellcard or using her other alt.421 for superarmor, the only way to hit your opponent out of it is with her new alt.236, which means replacing either the fireball or flamethrower.
It isn't really that simple.
My responses in bold.
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Patchy isn't my character, so I'm not going to go point by point here, but there are a couple things I can say:
By this logic, Okuu, Sakuya, and Reimu should be god tier then. Oh wait, they aren't.
The point isn't "denser fireballs = god tier", it's denser fireballs with as much coverage as Patchy has would be. As it is, Patchy's standard B bullets beat Reimu's or Okuu's, and Patchy's 6C beats almost anything--the charged version will even blow through one of Okuu's C's, not that it's very practical. So, what, you want Patchy's 5C to have higher priority? That thing has enough advantages as it is.
The only bullets that cost spirit to graze when not flying are type-2 bullets. Royal Flare isn't Type-2.
Sorry, but there's nothing else to say here except, you're 100% wrong. Royal Flare does cost spirit to graze, just about 2 and a half orbs worth.
Again, due to the nature of the card (high-damage hits but massive proration), if it's comboed or guardcrushed into the resulting proration/border resist will cause it to end your combo at 3000-3500 no matter what. Which is pitiful for a 5-card spellcard.
Guard crushing from 2 orbs will do 3300. Guard crushing from 1 will do 4100. Which is pretty much par for the course, there's a lot of 5-card spellcards that barely break 4000 without even being comboed, so I'm not sure how this qualifies as pitiful.
There are of course a few exceptions, but given Royal Flare is both easy to setup and impossible to avoid, I'd say it's damage level is fine.
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Patch's melee is a LOT laggier than most of the cast's, with j.6A being one of the laggiest melee attacks in the game.
6A and 8A are, sure. I'm not gonna be jumping in with either one. 5A and 2a are much safer against a ground opponent and I only risk screwing up with 2A. To make up for this, 2A has a huge hitbox, high priority, bounces Patchy backwards on block and the lag can be canceled with an hjc'd projectile. Patchy's air 2A beats Okuu's ground 2A.
By this logic, Okuu, Sakuya, and Reimu should be god tier then. Oh wait, they aren't.
Their bullets are not Patchouli's bullets and they don't share the same weaknesses and strengths that Patchouli does. Patchouli's bullets have enough advantages that their being denser would make them ridiculously broken. 6C has high speed and can break through some of the densest projectiles, 5C covers a large area and homes, 2C spreads downward at high speed and all of them do great damage with reasonable prorate and limit.
Agreed wholly, which is another reason to not use her alt.421s.
Emerald City is a fine special. You have a problem with it being punishable on whiff. Unfortunately, just about anything has this problem.
It's down to preference.
I never said it wasn't a good card, but it's not anything special for what it does, and it has zero priority, meaning if it's blocked, grazed, or if it drops the opponent they're getting a free combo.
Again, just about -anything- has that qualifier of 'It makes me vulnerable if I screw up'. what makes Silent Selene special is that it's much better AND more versatile than similar cards.
The only bullets that cost spirit to graze when not flying are type-2 bullets. Royal Flare isn't Type-2.
Again, due to the nature of the card (high-damage hits but massive proration), if it's comboed or guardcrushed into the resulting proration/border resist will cause it to end your combo at 3000-3500 no matter what. Which is pitiful for a 5-card spellcard.
Honest, Royal Flare does drain spirit on graze. Actualy, trying to graze it is a much worse idea than trying to block it.
A good portion of Royal Flare lead-ins start midscreen, but okay.
The point is that it's impossible to avoid. Whereas St. Elmo's pillar can be set up for 3300+ damage, Royal Flare is -guaranteed- -easy- 3300+ damage in a worst case scenario.
Her standard BNBs do 2500-3200 cardless.
Again, that's a worst case scenario. Typically, it does much more; it's very difficult to escape Philsopher's Stone completely unscathed if Patchy knows what she's doing. It ain't no Royal Flare by far, but it's one of many tools she has.
Problem is, 2A and 6A don't cancel from bullets or specials without a White Tower Sword. In the range that you'd even be worrying about an opponent dashing through your blockstrings you wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to wait for the bullet lag to end and the active frames from your melee to kick in, even with 2A. You don't even have time to highjump without getting counterhit. The only real option you have outside of whiffing alt.623 or alt.421 (EC) into a spellcard or using her other alt.421 for superarmor, the only way to hit your opponent out of it is with her new alt.236, which means replacing either the fireball or flamethrower.
I wasn't talking about using bullets. I was talking about ground mixups. Her ground mixup game may be awful, but she does have the advantage in a few key instances; like 5A > 2A or 5AA > 6C > 5A/2A. Saying that she's easy to stop when mindlessly 5Aing into bullets is one thing, but she DOES have some effective mixups.
That's besides the point. Outside of melee, she is able to put more pressure on an opponent with bullets than most if not any other character in the game.
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Well, I concede on Royal Flare; I know for a fact it wasn't type-2 in SWR, but I just tested it in UNL, and sure enough it is now.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/jqm1qc.png)
However, it's barely over 2 orbs and it's not going to crush you or damage you while dashing, plus it literally all recovers by the time Patch is able to move again. So in terms of grazing you'll break even, which can make it rather negligible unless your opponent's flying around and almost out of spirit.
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However, it's barely over 2 orbs and it's not going to crush you or damage you while dashing, plus it literally all recovers by the time Patch is able to move again. So in terms of grazing you'll break even, which can make it rather negligible unless your opponent's flying around and almost out of spirit.
I honestly don't see how you can say this.
Yes, you can't just throw it out at random and expect results. But it's absolutely trivial to put the opponent in a position where they are going to take a ridiculous amount of unavoidable damage. If the opponent goes below three spirit orbs for any reason, there is nothing they can do to stop Royal Flare. Absolutely nothing.
Just having it out makes Patchy incredibly dangerous. It's an advantage that really can't be dismissed like that.
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Alice being bottom tier seems rather surprising to me. I mean, I know she's a bit more of a pain to use well, but is she really as bad as bottom tier? o.o
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Alice being bottom tier seems rather surprising to me. I mean, I know she's a bit more of a pain to use well, but is she really as bad as bottom tier? o.o
In IaMP she's a pain to use well, but can be devastating in the hands of a skilled player. In UNL she's a pain to use well and generally isn't more then annoying.
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Plus they nerfed her for whatever reason in UNL
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Alice being bottom tier seems rather surprising to me. I mean, I know she's a bit more of a pain to use well, but is she really as bad as bottom tier? o.o
Her spirit damage was nerfed heavily, to the point where it's near impossible to guardcrush with her.
And characters designed to guardcrush that can't guardcrush are usually pretty terrible. :V
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Alice can put out a lot of damage, but it's very difficult to get her in a position to make it work. Her melee suffers from, depending on the attack, either really short range, or long range with a huge dead zone in front of her.
Her bullets tend to have a lot of startup time, so it's hard to get a fast moving offense going with her, and it's almost impossible to stop heavy bullet spam from your opponent because she has nothing to blow through danmaku besides spellcards.
She has no reversal attacks (spellcards excluded), and while it's not as big a deal in Tensoku as it is in SWR, her only melee special is an alternate (albiet a good one). Her only abilities that work as anti-air are clumsy at best.
And yes, she was not only nerfed in Tensoku, she got crap for new abilities. The new alt skillcards are poor, the spears spellcard is alright, but Lemming Parade is just horrid.
All in all she's a character with some good tools that are just hard to use effectively. One of my favorite characters, but most battles are uphill.
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Also her dolls now die from one hit of pretty much anything :V
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Alice can put out a lot of damage, but it's very difficult to get her in a position to make it work. Her melee suffers from, depending on the attack, either really short range, or long range with a huge dead zone in front of her.
I wanted to say this, but even the 4500 damage combos I found in SWR don't work anymore. I did find one decent corner one, but it's extremely unreliable due to the random locations the dolls in 1k Spears spawn.
She got nerfed in pretty much every way imaginable, and she didn't even need it.