Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Zelinko on April 03, 2017, 07:43:23 AM
-
Like the title said how do you do it?
Every time I try to even play now I'm utterly miserable and just can't feel any happiness from it only depression both playing it and especially after it.
Die on stage 1 restart, start to feel heavier.
Die on stage 2 to a stage enemy restart, feel heavier.
Die again before stage 4. Close the game and just feel like crying.
I used to enjoy playing these games. But now it's just misery even thinking about it. Took half a year off still just as bad about it. Tried different games in the line. No effect. Tried LoLK, realized a fun game for me hasn't come out in half a decade (with the last I enjoyed being Ten Desires)
I just don't know if I can enjoy it anymore or if I've just broken myself.
Even when I hit the wall the first time it wasn't this bad. I'm not sure if the cancer of LOL YOU PLAY EASY MODE! LOL BABY YOUR 1CC DOESN'T EVEN COUNT has gotten to me I just don't know.
The question is how do I fix myself or should I just give up?
-
I often get into a spiral where I'm having a bad session, I want to get one achievement before packing in for the night (even something small like capturing a difficult spell), but because of increasing frustration and tiredness, this gets harder and harder.
For me, the way out is to make sure I end each session playing something that I know is too hard for me, something that I expect to fail and can just enjoy failing at. (In any case, spending some time playing higher difficulties is a great way to improve your skill at the difficulty you're aiming at.) Even better, this sometimes leads to completely unexpected success -- last week I 1cc'd IN Hard, on a credit that was meant to be "here's something I'm not ready for yet, let's just see how far I get".
-
That depends - what made you interested to play originally?
The soundtracks and getting better inspired me. Seeing sections that I had problems with cleared after some practice always makes me happy when playing. When you're forced to play at your best for 30+ minutes, you're bound to have some lucky dodges and also some not-so-lucky moments. Restarting runs repeatedly does sound torturous, though - I would play most of my runs out because what seems like a bad run could easily turn into something unexpected.
In the official lineup, DDC and LoLK were notably harder games than the rest including the likes of Seija, Kagerou, Doremy...etc. I wouldn't let Easy Mode taunts get to me - Bullet Hell games aren't easy things to play by any means. Maybe just trying to play the games with no expectations may help.
-
Really, ZUN's been ramping it up since Mountain of Faith. SA, UFO, GFW, DDC, and LoLK are all markedly meaner than the preceding games in terms of actually clearing them. Arguably TD, too, but most won't agree with me on that. I blame the lack of being able to give yourself more lives in the options menu, myself =[
-
That depends - what made you interested to play originally?
The soundtracks and getting better inspired me. Seeing sections that I had problems with cleared after some practice always makes me happy when playing. When you're forced to play at your best for 30+ minutes, you're bound to have some lucky dodges and also some not-so-lucky moments. Restarting runs repeatedly does sound torturous, though - I would play most of my runs out because what seems like a bad run could easily turn into something unexpected.
In the official lineup, DDC and LoLK were notably harder games than the rest including the likes of Seija, Kagerou, Doremy...etc. I wouldn't let Easy Mode taunts get to me - Bullet Hell games aren't easy things to play by any means. Maybe just trying to play the games with no expectations may help.
In part the restart loops are symptoms of the problem... I need to be perfect because I just need more lives to get progress. I just need more lives
DDC's biggest problem is wanting to play. It's really bland feeling then we get to ZUN runs out of ideas for creative cards in the form of Seija, why did he think LOL CONTROL SCREW SO I CAN REPEAT THE SAME PATTERN TWICE was a good idea? Then Shinymouru is just Lame gimmick and another survival card, IMO Survival Cards should be optional like Last Words were. Combined with the fact that DDC's actively forcing movement to get ANY resources is just not fun.
LoLK is steaming pile of a game. It's not at all balanced for normal play as there is no bomb fragments from what I saw and the entire YOU MUST ACTIVELY GRAZE TO GET ANY RESOURCES actively offended me. I'm not a person obsessed with score so I don't graze. The game forces you to play exactly the way ZUN scripted it which is NOT FUN. Also it's the first Touhou game I played which is actively UGLY and has a bad soundtrack. Which is a damn shame because I love the concept and design of Doremy. This doesn't even come to the massive problem of Point Device which has all the problems of the photography games without being able to skip a shot if you don't want to do it.
Really, ZUN's been ramping it up since Mountain of Faith. SA, UFO, GFW, DDC, and LoLK are all markedly meaner than the preceding games in terms of actually clearing them. Arguably TD, too, but most won't agree with me on that. I blame the lack of being able to give yourself more lives in the options menu, myself =[
The biggest problem is the gimmicks became more and more intrusive. In Mountain of Faith or Subterranean Animism the gimmicks only affected score (although the Hoola Hoops of failure in MoF are the worst bombs in any game).
UFO forces you to play tag with things that cover bullets and only give FRAGMENTS when you're having to hold onto 2 Red or 2 Green for the majority of a level and pray the color changing UFO doesn't decide to go wrong color the instant you touch it.
Ten Desires Trance mode I often forget exists and you get enough resources to ignore it.
And Ten Desires was my fastest from start playing to getting a 1CC Easy clear on. And honestly I view as being one of the more fun ones. I've been trying to 1CC that as Imperishable Night's just having the vs Reimu fight which is just taking an already unfun fight and dragging it out longer, any battle where the enemy is invulnerable the majority of the time is a bad fight by definition.
I often get into a spiral where I'm having a bad session, I want to get one achievement before packing in for the night (even something small like capturing a difficult spell), but because of increasing frustration and tiredness, this gets harder and harder.
For me, the way out is to make sure I end each session playing something that I know is too hard for me, something that I expect to fail and can just enjoy failing at. (In any case, spending some time playing higher difficulties is a great way to improve your skill at the difficulty you're aiming at.) Even better, this sometimes leads to completely unexpected success -- last week I 1cc'd IN Hard, on a credit that was meant to be "here's something I'm not ready for yet, let's just see how far I get".
The problem is there is no progress. It's just getting no where further. It's just failing at the same point every time. Just can't get anywhere further. Often it's cases where in practice I'd need more lives than you can get in the entire game by that point if perfect or more. It just feels so meaningless. I can only really do one 'good run' before I'm just dragged down to oblivion.
------------
I'm just finding myself wondering if Touhou's going to keep having a string of unfun games as the fighters have been awful ever since HM happened. I'm just assuming the new game coming out is going to be a buggy mess with nonfunctional netplay so why even bother playing as the appeal of the fighters was to play against friends. And both HM and ULiL are not games to play with friends as the prior is a buggy mess with a core gimmick which doesn't work (How does the popularity system even work!!) or just removes what made me love Hisoutensoku in the first place, the customization. This doesn't even dig into bizarre and random design decisions which make no sense.
I just want to be able to play games and enjoy them again... Doesn't help that no one ever made actual translation patches for anything after Ten Desires. I refuse to touch THCRAP as it's not actually giving me a static patch like we had for everything before Ten Desires.
-
Honestly, if you're not having fun with the games, don't try to force it. Forcing yourself to play a game you don't enjoy doesn't benefit anyone. Maybe you need a longer break, maybe you've simply decided that you don't enjoy Touhou anymore. There's nothing wrong with that. Just move on to something else that you do enjoy, and come back to Touhou if/when you think you might be in a position to enjoy it again.
-
And Ten Desires was my fastest from start playing to getting a 1CC Easy clear on. And honestly I view as being one of the more fun ones. I've been trying to 1CC that as Imperishable Night's just having the vs Reimu fight which is just taking an already unfun fight and dragging it out longer, any battle where the enemy is invulnerable the majority of the time is a bad fight by definition.
I just want to be able to play games and enjoy them again... Doesn't help that no one ever made actual translation patches for anything after Ten Desires. I refuse to touch THCRAP as it's not actually giving me a static patch like we had for everything before Ten Desires.
That's a lot of complaining, much of which seems arbitrary to me. Perhaps if you make the effort to stop viewing things as inherently bad, and make use of what you're given (life systems/patches), you'd enjoy it more? That might be hard to do, so here's some more specific thoughts.
UFO/GFW/DDC/LoLK all give ridiculously high life counts compared to the previous games (15-20+ optimally), so it's not like you need to use the systems efficiently to surpass the 8 total lives of EoSD and MoF, or the 10 lives of SA (accounting for 6-10 missed life parts due to dying).
Actually, it seems you think TD gives more than enough resources without trance, when it gives the lowest of any game in the series (unless you count PoDD but that's a different gameplay style). If you find 5 lives throughout the entire game acceptable, then I'd think you'd also find the free lives from UFO/DDC/LoLK acceptable. UFO gives 5 1/4 lives (with the conditional stage 4 1up) without having to summon any UFOs; DDC gives more simply by collecting items without trying for 60+ items at once. LoLK depends on the difficulty, but I'm sure you reach 200 graze naturally often enough just from aimed bullets and sufficiently dense patterns, particularly on the bosses.
Also, since you seem to have problems with repeating earlier stages and life counts throughout the game, try playing stage practice more. You'll learn the patterns for full runs, both to survive and where to easily gain life parts, while avoiding getting bored on stage 1.
If nothing else, just take a break from the games, as Nova said. Why play if you're not enjoying it?
-
On the subject of the games themselves, I think some level of adaptation is necessary for any of the games. I'm much of the same mind when it comes to scoring; if at all possible, I'd rather not do it at all and focus on the patterns. However, the fact remains that gaining resources from the system is a part of the game, and it's no good to just ignore it. Since the score systems are complementary to the stage design though, I think working resource-gathering into your movements is an important part of learning the game as a whole. Like Karisa said, perfection isn't required by any means - you just need to do well enough to get the amount of resources you need.
However, based on the way you've been talking about the games, I'm wondering if the problem is less gameplay-related and more a matter of how you've been approaching the games recently. You say you feel depressed after playing - but why? Is it because you feel you aren't making the kind of progress you want? Are your restarts a result of wanting to get the maximum amount of resources and maximize your chances? Is anything less than your absolute best unacceptable? If so, I'm wondering if you're focused a little too much on the idea of immediately getting a clear, and losing sight of what made you interested in the series to begin with.
This may sound overly philosophical, but I think a large part of doing well in games like Touhou comes down to a matter of approaching the games with the right mindset, rather than any matter of skill level. While it's true that clearing is your ultimate goal, it's only natural that the effort working up to that full clear will be riddled with failures as your learn the patterns and increase your general skill level. Instead, I think it's more important to focus on what you find fun in the games - the raw idea of dodging, overcoming the challenge, and most of all enjoying the game on your own terms. So long as you do these things, I think you will get better on your own, and your individual mistakes will seem less grating. In short, I think you may enjoy yourself more if you put aside the notion of doing well for the time being and focus more on having fun, simply doing your best. Through that, I feel a clear will come in time.
Oh, and lastly, a golden rule I've learned over my time is to never reject a run that makes it past stage 2 with less than two deaths. Putting everything you have into a run that seems like it's already doomed is often what leads to the most surprising runs.
-
Die on stage 1 restart, start to feel heavier.
Die on stage 2 to a stage enemy restart, feel heavier.
Die again before stage 4. Close the game and just feel like crying.
Stop restarting.
Also, I don't use static patches. Some games' static patches have incompatible replays to the original version. I always play on the original version now. You don't really need translation patches to play Touhou.
-
You could quit playing. Like, forever. It's really okay to just drop the games if you're not enjoying them. There's plenty of good experiences out there, and the only downside is going outside your comfort zone.
Play an amazing game in a genre you haven't touched. Some personal recommendations:
Megaman 2 or 3 (for NES)
Ori and the Blind Forest
Magic: the Gathering
Ocarina of Time
Undertale
Furi
-
When I play Touhou, usually I just play stage practice. It's a lot less stressful and I still get to play the same stages and bosses.
If you want stage unlocks, this thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8641.0.html) links to most unlocked score.dats.
-
Your situation sounds really serious to me, to be honest.
If you feel like Touhou is becoming more of an psychological issue for you and pressures you too much in a negative way, it'd be better for you to leave Touhou completely. Forcibly playing a game while not enjoying it is generally a pretty bad idea and could have an unwelcome effect on your psyche.
Like CopperMarten suggested, the world of video games is broad, there are many different things to discover. It'll bring some diversity to your gaming experience and overall broaden your views in general.
As for me, I started playing Touhou at about half a year before DDC has been released. Music, character design and the creative fan community are what drew my interest into Touhou - the level-headed side of the fan community that is, not the fans who spawn all these memes to mock players and people not knowing Touhou. Don't take these "EASY MODO" memes personally, some people deliberately misuse them to mock newcomers and players in general who play on Easy. Even I'm still playing on Easy sometimes for relaxation and don't give a damn about these provocations. Just ignore these people who are trying to make fun of you, don't let their insults get to you. Playing Touhou, as just for playing any game, should be for fun and not be a forced matter in any way, including the mockery which would make some people desperate to try higher difficulties so they wouldn't get picked on anymore. This is wrong.
Play whatever game however you want, on whatever difficulty you desire. You'll naturally become better if you don't forcibly play a game, are learning and getting adapted to its mechanics gradually. People learn by making mistakes, which is the reason why there exists a continue system with each Touhou game.
I personally find every game in the Touhou franchise fun in their own regard, especially because of their different mechanics. That's exactly what makes every game unique and doesn't make Touhou look like a monotonous pile of games with identical gameplay mechanics and bosses with repetitive gimmicks. Principally the same applies for the new multilanguage patch. They're flexible and allow quick changes if the initial translation is inaccurate, which would be important if you want to know better about the story/plot.
Honestly now, the best thing to do now is to let Touhou rest for a while, and try some different games. That could make you forget the stress you had with Touhou and if you happen to come back once, you likely won't take said stress so seriously anymore and will be able to properly enjoy the Touhou games again.
One last thing: play Easy mode all you want. It's good as a warm-up or if you haven't touched Touhou for a while. I do it as well. Don't listen to people who are deliberately trying to make fun of you because of this. EoSD is being a huge douche in that regard tbh
-
When I play Touhou, usually I just play stage practice. It's a lot less stressful and I still get to play the same stages and bosses.
If you want stage unlocks, this thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8641.0.html) links to most unlocked score.dats.
Here's also a more extensive dat list (http://eientei.boards.net/thread/1107/)
-
When I play Touhou, usually I just play stage practice. It's a lot less stressful and I still get to play the same stages and bosses.
If you want stage unlocks, this thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8641.0.html) links to most unlocked score.dats.
I agree.
I mostly do stage practice instead of actual runs nowadays. I spam them, even when I can clear them with a decent amount of resources... I keep practicing them. Not just to get better overall, but theres no risk and its fun!
I have even managed to perfect entire stages before ever getting its respective 1cc lol. Stage Practice is your friend.
-
How long have you been playing?
What's your preferred difficulty? What got you into Touhou in the first place (gameplay, music, lore, something else)?
If you've yet to do a Lunatic 1CC, then Instead of banging your head on the newer games, why not try the harder difficulties of the older, more familiar games? I don't play Touhou as much as I used to, but I still attempt a Lunatic EoSD 1CC every now and then.
Edit: Didn't notice your second post, nvm.
I kinda have to ask this: you know how to use the Focused shot (shift key), right? I've seen lots of people struggle with Touhou simply because they didn't know about the Focused shot.
There are other ways to get fun from Touhou outside of new 1CCs. Improve your scores on spell practice & stage practice, or just focus on capturing spellcards. Re-do a 1CC that you've previously done to get a higher score.
You could also try PC shmups outside of Touhou. PC shmups used to be pretty niche, but now Steam is brimming with them. Crimzon Clover, Danmaku Unlimited, eXceed, CAVE games, Jigoku Kisetsukan, Super Galaxy Squadron EX, Blue Revolver...
-
In part the restart loops are symptoms of the problem... I need to be perfect because I just need more lives to get progress. I just need more lives
Well you have bombs. You don't need more lives if you have the bombs to protect them.
Combined with the fact that DDC's actively forcing movement to get ANY resources is just not fun.
Forcing movement to acquire resources is good design. You are not entitled to extra resources, you are awarded them for taking action. Gaining extra lives for not doing anything in particular, in contrast, is poor design. If this weren't the case you would just start with them.
LoLK is steaming pile of a game. It's not at all balanced for normal play as there is no bomb fragments from what I saw
It is a bit strange that there is no way to get more bombs but this does not particularly make the game unbalanced, it just makes the resource use kind of linear. You have three bombs to use, then die. Because the resources are awarded statically for each section, and you only need three life pieces for a life, even if you got a full bomb per section instead it would actually be worse.
YOU MUST ACTIVELY GRAZE TO GET ANY RESOURCES actively offended me. I'm not a person obsessed with score so I don't graze.
Conceptually, again, having to take positive action for resource reward is good design, but the implementation kind of sucks because getting resources in lower difficulties is a huge pain, and grazing is not particularly a good way to achieve this. That being said, it literally doesn't matter if you don't graze in other games because you don't care about score, because in this game you now have a reason to graze. This reasoning makes no sense, it's just complaining that you aren't used to having to graze. If you don't like that then ok, but then just say that instead of suggesting it's bad somehow.
and has a bad soundtrack
more like you have bad taste :^)
In Mountain of Faith or Subterranean Animism the gimmicks only affected score (although the Hoola Hoops of failure in MoF are the worst bombs in any game).
In MoF you literally get lives from score. Also its bombs, despite being visually unappealing, are some of the most OP in the series, and it showers you with them.
Meanwhile, I don't get how more people don't complain about SA punishing you extra for dying. Because the mechanism isn't plainly visible?
UFO forces you to play tag with things that cover bullets
They don't cover bullets. Bullets are drawn over UFO tokens.
Reimu fight which is just taking an already unfun fight and dragging it out longer, any battle where the enemy is invulnerable the majority of the time is a bad fight by definition.
I'm not sure what game you're playing but it sure isn't Imperishable Night. Reimu isn't even invulnerable when she's looping across the screen.
The problem is there is no progress. It's just getting no where further. It's just failing at the same point every time. Just can't get anywhere further. Often it's cases where in practice I'd need more lives than you can get in the entire game by that point if perfect or more. It just feels so meaningless. I can only really do one 'good run' before I'm just dragged down to oblivion.
What I'm getting from this is that your practicing methods are questionable and you're just ramming your head at the game without thinking about how to handle the patterns properly. A lot of new players do this, you just kind of have to learn how to practice more efficiently. Your mentality about failure also does not sound healthy. Failure in Touhou is going to be, like, the overwhelming majority of your play, unless you only want to play whatever you can already beat.
I refuse to touch THCRAP as it's not actually giving me a static patch like we had for everything before Ten Desires.
https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Standalone_Patches
These don't work exactly the same as modified game files, but for anyone not savvy enough to know the difference between patching methods it should be good enough. It is entirely possible to use the resources to make an actual hard patch, but there is no good reason for people to do the work.
-
((Whoops, double post!))
-
Whist I think that everyone has their right to enjoy or dislike a game and its' contents, isn't a bit too harsh to say you're 'feeling miserable' from playing? I don't mean to point fingers but I think a lot of your critique comes from personal opinion and mayhap driven by frustration?
I like the fact that the games each got distinct mechanics, and while consistency is fun, it's also pretty neat to adapt your playstyle depending on your stage - be it bombing to grab lots of items on DDC or trying to Deathbomb on MoF to maximize your point gains.
That being said, if you think the mechanics are stressful and you see yourself dying too much, why not lowering the difficulty? And finally, enjoy the journey too, set yourself small, fun accomplishments. Sometimes I try getting my Lunatic 1cc's, sometimes I just want to enjoy a fight while trying to syncronize the spellcards with the music playing. There's no rule on how to enjoy a game after all, as long as you enjoy it!
EDIT: I didn't notice the part where you said you've been playing on easy mode. If you're having trouble with that too, then remember to bomb more often. With Easy difficulties, managing your bombs and using them whenever patterns thicken is a nearly sure-fire way of progressing.
And if you're still having trouble, try going for shottypes that are survivability-focused, like Reimu just about anywhere, Reisen on LoLK, SakuyaA on DDC or Nitori (MarisaC) on SA.
-
On the subject of the games themselves, I think some level of adaptation is necessary for any of the games. I'm much of the same mind when it comes to scoring; if at all possible, I'd rather not do it at all and focus on the patterns. However, the fact remains that gaining resources from the system is a part of the game, and it's no good to just ignore it. Since the score systems are complementary to the stage design though, I think working resource-gathering into your movements is an important part of learning the game as a whole. Like Karisa said, perfection isn't required by any means - you just need to do well enough to get the amount of resources you need.
However, based on the way you've been talking about the games, I'm wondering if the problem is less gameplay-related and more a matter of how you've been approaching the games recently. You say you feel depressed after playing - but why? Is it because you feel you aren't making the kind of progress you want? Are your restarts a result of wanting to get the maximum amount of resources and maximize your chances? Is anything less than your absolute best unacceptable? If so, I'm wondering if you're focused a little too much on the idea of immediately getting a clear, and losing sight of what made you interested in the series to begin with.
This may sound overly philosophical, but I think a large part of doing well in games like Touhou comes down to a matter of approaching the games with the right mindset, rather than any matter of skill level. While it's true that clearing is your ultimate goal, it's only natural that the effort working up to that full clear will be riddled with failures as your learn the patterns and increase your general skill level. Instead, I think it's more important to focus on what you find fun in the games - the raw idea of dodging, overcoming the challenge, and most of all enjoying the game on your own terms. So long as you do these things, I think you will get better on your own, and your individual mistakes will seem less grating. In short, I think you may enjoy yourself more if you put aside the notion of doing well for the time being and focus more on having fun, simply doing your best. Through that, I feel a clear will come in time.
Oh, and lastly, a golden rule I've learned over my time is to never reject a run that makes it past stage 2 with less than two deaths. Putting everything you have into a run that seems like it's already doomed is often what leads to the most surprising runs.
Half the time It's just I do. Maybe it's the lack of progress. Maybe it's that I just am just trapped in needing to win.
The restarts are heavily tied towards I need as many lives as possible to get past the problem area.
And really most of the things that drew me in are long gone. RP groups are dead and their forums lost to the net. The music lines have kinda stumbled around and I just don't find enough to work as so often it's just stumbling upon new music like a drunk.
Forcing movement to acquire resources is good design. You are not entitled to extra resources, you are awarded them for taking action. Gaining extra lives for not doing anything in particular, in contrast, is poor design. If this weren't the case you would just start with them.
It is a bit strange that there is no way to get more bombs but this does not particularly make the game unbalanced, it just makes the resource use kind of linear. You have three bombs to use, then die. Because the resources are awarded statically for each section, and you only need three life pieces for a life, even if you got a full bomb per section instead it would actually be worse.
Conceptually, again, having to take positive action for resource reward is good design, but the implementation kind of sucks because getting resources in lower difficulties is a huge pain, and grazing is not particularly a good way to achieve this. That being said, it literally doesn't matter if you don't graze in other games because you don't care about score, because in this game you now have a reason to graze. This reasoning makes no sense, it's just complaining that you aren't used to having to graze. If you don't like that then ok, but then just say that instead of suggesting it's bad somehow.
I'm not sure what game you're playing but it sure isn't Imperishable Night. Reimu isn't even invulnerable when she's looping across the screen.
Please don't spaghetti post. It makes replying to a quote all but impossible.
I don't run up and hump the POC Line constantly like DDC forces you to do. LoLK is just bad decision after decision. I hate grazing. I actively avoid shots. Only time I graze is when I'm forced to graze.
Reimu is effectively invulnerable as you have about a quarter of a second before she's out of the string of shots and you do near zero damage.
And to that other guy YES I DO USE FOCUS. I have 1ccs for most windows games on Easy outside the three games I have no desire to play due to their godawful gimmicks.
You could quit playing. Like, forever. It's really okay to just drop the games if you're not enjoying them. There's plenty of good experiences out there, and the only downside is going outside your comfort zone.
Play an amazing game in a genre you haven't touched. Some personal recommendations:
The majority of your list is flat out NOs. I've cleared the NES set for Megamans and really I kinda rather do MM4 if I'd go back to them. I run a lot of games but It's trying to come back to Touhou which is the problem. A lot of my main set I'm near the point where it's wait for new content to come out or just stockpile resources alone.
That's a lot of complaining, much of which seems arbitrary to me. Perhaps if you make the effort to stop viewing things as inherently bad, and make use of what you're given (life systems/patches), you'd enjoy it more? That might be hard to do, so here's some more specific thoughts.
UFO/GFW/DDC/LoLK all give ridiculously high life counts compared to the previous games (15-20+ optimally), so it's not like you need to use the systems efficiently to surpass the 8 total lives of EoSD and MoF, or the 10 lives of SA (accounting for 6-10 missed life parts due to dying).
Actually, it seems you think TD gives more than enough resources without trance, when it gives the lowest of any game in the series (unless you count PoDD but that's a different gameplay style). If you find 5 lives throughout the entire game acceptable, then I'd think you'd also find the free lives from UFO/DDC/LoLK acceptable. UFO gives 5 1/4 lives (with the conditional stage 4 1up) without having to summon any UFOs; DDC gives more simply by collecting items without trying for 60+ items at once. LoLK depends on the difficulty, but I'm sure you reach 200 graze naturally often enough just from aimed bullets and sufficiently dense patterns, particularly on the bosses.
Also, since you seem to have problems with repeating earlier stages and life counts throughout the game, try playing stage practice more. You'll learn the patterns for full runs, both to survive and where to easily gain life parts, while avoiding getting bored on stage 1.
If nothing else, just take a break from the games, as Nova said. Why play if you're not enjoying it?
Because my last break was almost a year.
See you say UFO/DDC/LoLK have high amounts of extra lives but you forget one huge aspect to your sentence "15-20+ optimally". See This assumes you're amazing at the game. Realistically I'm getting two or three extra lives from those games. Or in LoLK only the single fixed drop and maybe a random fragment due to how awful it's gimmick is. DDC is just endless bomb frags and the pity life fragment. UFO is just HAHA GET FUCKED! You're gonna hold onto those two red UFO Bits for the entire stage. Enjoy endless Blues which exist to get in your way and taunt you.
Ten Desires ensures I routinely get about 5 lives even without effective trance usage.
Also MOF bombs are the worst bombs in the game. Don't even clear shots for shit and do no damage at all. If you want anything like a bomb in that game just use the Marisa B glitch.
Whist I think that everyone has their right to enjoy or dislike a game and its' contents, isn't a bit too harsh to say you're 'feeling miserable' from playing? I don't mean to point fingers but I think a lot of your critique comes from personal opinion and mayhap driven by frustration?
I like the fact that the games each got distinct mechanics, and while consistency is fun, it's also pretty neat to adapt your playstyle depending on your stage - be it bombing to grab lots of items on DDC or trying to Deathbomb on MoF to maximize your point gains.
That being said, if you think the mechanics are stressful and you see yourself dying too much, why not lowering the difficulty? And finally, enjoy the journey too, set yourself small, fun accomplishments. Sometimes I try getting my Lunatic 1cc's, sometimes I just want to enjoy a fight while trying to syncronize the spellcards with the music playing. There's no rule on how to enjoy a game after all, as long as you enjoy it!
EDIT: I didn't notice the part where you said you've been playing on easy mode. If you're having trouble with that too, then remember to bomb more often. With Easy difficulties, managing your bombs and using them whenever patterns thicken is a nearly sure-fire way of progressing.
And if you're still having trouble, try going for shottypes that are survivability-focused, like Reimu just about anywhere, Reisen on LoLK, SakuyaA on DDC or Nitori (MarisaC) on SA.
I'm trying with some to get 1ccs on normal after I've gotten it on easy. And I do feel miserable after playing. A lot of the adapting you say is pretty much "No you can't have fun this way. You will do it THE WAY I INTEND OR YOU WILL GET NOTHING" which is just not fun. I miss when the gimmicks were not intrusive (SA/IN) or only beneficial but entirely optional (PCB) The trend towards you gimmick is the only way you can get lives is just not fun anymore. It's so tiring. I just want another fun Touhou to come out. I don't want to have to wait a decade for something good to come out. Already done that too many times with other things I enjoy.
-
Half the time It's just I do. Maybe it's the lack of progress. Maybe it's that I just am just trapped in needing to win.
The restarts are heavily tied towards I need as many lives as possible to get past the problem area.
And really most of the things that drew me in are long gone. RP groups are dead and their forums lost to the net. The music lines have kinda stumbled around and I just don't find enough to work as so often it's just stumbling upon new music like a drunk.
You say you were drawn in by other aspects of the fandom, but you still seem pretty set on improving yourself on the games themselves. And again, how come you feel you need to win to the point of depression? It's okay if you don't succeed in a run; in spite of the memes, very few actual players these days judge a Touhou fan based on their skill level. It's okay if you play on easy mode, and it's okay if you don't like every aspect of every game. However, you do seem to have a desire to improve yourself, so what should you do?
In my humble opinion, you seem a little fixated on the idea that any scoring system requiring adaptation is the source of your frustrations. While it is true that I speak as a lunatic player, I feel there is fundamentally no difference to how we approach the score systems. As someone who doesn't like scoring, I don't really make much of an effort to adapt to them. To use DDC as an example, I never plan bombs in order to get a 2.0 multiplier and free life fragment; I just head to the PoC when it's convenient. In LoLK, I only graze to the extent that it's complementary to survival and my own preferred playing style. However, this still usually gives me adequate resources, even if it's far less than what I could potentially get.
If you truly hate the score systems as much as you say you do, then I think your efforts would be better directed at getting better at the patterns themselves, rather than focusing on gaining enough resources to tank everything. While it's true that is a valid strategy, if the effort is making you miserable, then you should try another route - one which lets you focus on what you find fun. As you get better at each individual segment, think about how many resources you need, and focus only on getting enough, instead of doing everything optimally. That's my recommendation, at least. If nothing else, you'll find yourself restarting a lot less often due to messing up a risky scoring maneuver.
-
Let's ignore gameplay mechanics that you dislike for now. There are enough Touhou games such that you can ignore the ones you dislike entirely. I assume you apply the same strategy to Megaman games.
You've identified problem areas, like Reimu's teleporting, which cause you to be miserable. A solution to satisfaction is to overcome these problem areas, one at a time. Every challenge you overcome is an accomplishment to be proud of.
What other problem areas are you facing? The players in this forum are very willing to help.
Also, watching gameplay videos on YouTube is more helpful than you would expect.
-
I'm uncertain how you would say Ten Desires doesn't use gimmicks to obtain lives, when you have to run about the screen to pick up life fragments that never fall down. If you want to trance, you also have to either speedkill stage enemies (possibly using bombs in the process) or shotgun whenever given the opportunity. Picking up one life fragment per boss spellcard sounds like it wouldn't even give 3 extends.
Colors of UFOs don't change if you're in proximity to them. If you were on the approach, you would have ample time to see that they're not the right color. Even if they're partially obscured by bullets, you could still see the rate of their flashing increase and you have audio cues for when they do shift.
To say that MoF bombs are either weak or don't clear any bullets would be saying Alice's bombs in Imperishable Night is good for damage, or that either of Reimu/Suika and Marisa/Patchouli in SA can clear bullets effectively.
Regarding what nintendonut mentioned just above: it sounds more like if the intended way intrudes on a survival level, that causes frustration for you. But, is it right to expect to play along every shmup's rules in the same way? Certainly, we can't expect to play any of the Touhou games like you might play Ikaruga, Jamestown without Vaunt, CAVE games without hypers, or KAMUI without using any of the lightning weapons, or Hellsinker and all of its "oddities".
Though, it doesn't seem like we agree about that.
Since this Reimu conversation keeps continuing, I suppose a major factor is: Magic Team or Scarlet Team? I guarantee you that Remilia's shot is far better at damaging Reimu's nonspells than Alice's doll laser, but if you're adamant on using Magic then have you considered using Malice to damage the innumerable familiars at once?
-
You complain about DDC forcing you to go to the item collection point, yet:
EoSD and MoF use score-extends. You're going to need to collect items, preferably with the POC, in order to reach all possible score-extends.
PCB and IN use item-number extends. You're also going to need to collect items with the POC.
DDC also gives you resources on capturing spell cards. Speaking of spell cards, always make it a habit to POC after a spell card, no matter the outcome. Doesn't matter the game, you have enough time to do it on any.
The POC is almost always good. Obviously you shouldn't get greedy but POCing at whatever opportunity is largely encouraged, even as a survival player.
You also don't need to be "good" to get lives in any game. I'm an utter shit kid at the games and I still routinely manage to get enough lives to barely clear most of the games on hard difficulty (and a few on lunatic). And trust me, the titles mentioned do give plenty of lives even if you're bad at the game. You just need to take every opportunity you can to get lives and bombs.
Also, the fact that you're talking about disliking aspects about mechanics that aren't even true genuinely pisses me off. MoF bombs useless, seriously?
Most of SA bombs (ReimuB, ReimuC, MarisaA, MarisaB) require you to plant it in front of their face. Planned bombs are important here. You get power back so it's not as punishing to use bombs.
You complain about grazing in LoLK. But streaming is a very good way to dodge bullets and you graze lots of bullets this way. Also, since you're playing on a lower difficulty, it's much easier to "hug" bullets to get graze items per bullet. Especially if you play as Reisen and use her shield bomb, which makes grazing even easier and also allows you to take 3 hits per bomb.
TD actually doesn't give as many lives as other games. You can get a total of 7 lives (5 extends) and a large number of bombs through trance. With proper routing you can even get an 8th life, but no more than that. TD basically requires you to abuse trance hypers as well as bombing spell cards for even more trance, then using trance on life pieces to double the amount you get.
UFO routes are largely static. If you play in a similar way, expect to get tokens the same way. UFO tokens are not random at all, the same enemies drop the same tokens and they fly around in similar ways.
Watch a bunch of replays and examine what they are doing. People aren't going to take you seriously if you continue to not listen to advice and state things that aren't true whatsoever.
If you want some simple 1cc's, play some fangames. A lot of them have much more generous systems and usually contain shot types that trivialize the game.
-
Speaking of spell cards, always make it a habit to POC after a spell card, no matter the outcome. Doesn't matter the game, you have enough time to do it on any.
There are a few exceptions here and there (Remilia's second spell is a particularly nasty example). Generally excellent advice, but it's worth noting that it's not universally true.
MoF bombs useless, seriously?
This, on the other hand, I can get behind 100%. Seriously, even Reimu's is basically a free skip against the vast majority of boss phases, outdamaging all but the most outrageously overpowered bombs from other games (UFO Sanae B, a few incarnations of Master Spark, etc). Marisa's is even stronger. While they're not very visually impressive, they're hilariously strong. MoF may be my favorite game in the series, but I can't deny that 95% of it boils down to "press X to win."
-
As someone who also tends to complain about Touhou way too much and resets on stage 1 five hundred times because I can't figure out how to not die on the second damned chapter of stage 1 screw you LoLK lunatic, I think the best course of action here is to first just clear something that's easy. Even if you fail, at least you've warmed up a bit on your dodging. If you're feeling too frustrated, take a 5 minute break, maybe watch a replay or a video of how it's done, and try again. You should be calmer now. At least, that's what I (try to) do. ;)
If you just can't clear anything for the love of god, uh maybe try bombing more...? Dunno. Try to watch replays or videos and steal try to copy or adapt the dodging strats used there. It's helped me get through some difficult sections before (i.e. first half of LoLK's 2nd damned stage 1 chapter screw the 2nd half grrr). Sometimes you also need to just get used to the game mechanics. Do not be afraid to break some borders in PCB (remember, pressing Bomb during a border will break it!), do not be afraid to bomb everything in MoF, do not be afraid to get close to some bullets if you can't PoC in SA (or maybe do, I guess running into bullets isn't really the safest thing ever), do not be afraid to miss some spirits in TD since you get 40 trillion anyway, do not be afraid to miss the PoC in DDC (bomb instead, as bombs automatically collect all items!), and do not be afraid to bomb in LoLK and use the iframes to graze (or if you're playing as Reisen, do not be afraid to bomb even if there's 0 bullets onscreen).
Also regarding thcrap patches, I use the standalone ones, although, since I already know the story/dialogue for the most part, I just use vpatch on the Japanese/original version most of the time.
I guess I got detracted from the current topic and moreso just wanted to reply to the OP, sorry.
-
Yeah I have to second... Third... Whatever. The whole "MoF bombs are underpowered" as simply wrong. Sorry dude but... Its just wrong.
They DO look unimpressive (seriously ZUN did you run out of ideas/got lazy with bombing animations for this game?), But they are actually borderline game breaking... Especially since the game is very generous with them.
-
I don't run up and hump the POC Line constantly like DDC forces you to do. LoLK is just bad decision after decision. I hate grazing. I actively avoid shots. Only time I graze is when I'm forced to graze.
See you say UFO/DDC/LoLK have high amounts of extra lives but you forget one huge aspect to your sentence "15-20+ optimally". See This assumes you're amazing at the game. Realistically I'm getting two or three extra lives from those games. Or in LoLK only the single fixed drop and maybe a random fragment due to how awful it's gimmick is. DDC is just endless bomb frags and the pity life fragment. UFO is just HAHA GET FUCKED! You're gonna hold onto those two red UFO Bits for the entire stage. Enjoy endless Blues which exist to get in your way and taunt you.
Ten Desires ensures I routinely get about 5 lives even without effective trance usage.
Also MOF bombs are the worst bombs in the game. Don't even clear shots for shit and do no damage at all. If you want anything like a bomb in that game just use the Marisa B glitch.
I'm trying with some to get 1ccs on normal after I've gotten it on easy. And I do feel miserable after playing. A lot of the adapting you say is pretty much "No you can't have fun this way. You will do it THE WAY I INTEND OR YOU WILL GET NOTHING" which is just not fun. I miss when the gimmicks were not intrusive (SA/IN) or only beneficial but entirely optional (PCB) The trend towards you gimmick is the only way you can get lives is just not fun anymore. It's so tiring. I just want another fun Touhou to come out. I don't want to have to wait a decade for something good to come out. Already done that too many times with other things I enjoy.
Honestly now, that's just plain overboard.
Do you actually really expect to get rewarded with resources just by sitting around doing nothing or only hugging, like, the bottom 1/10th of the screen? Even if it's a game, it doesn't mean just to stay inside your comfortable zone. To get resources, you gotta work for it in at least some way, which certainly includes moving around the screen collecting items or going up to the PoC border on some occasions.
EoSD's and MoF's extends are completely score based. PCB and IN give extends based on how many blue point items you've collected. Even these gimmicks will require you to do at least something to get rewarded with extra resources. LoLK is more challenging than the other games, sure, I agree on that, but it doesn't mean it's a de facto bad mechanic. As for all in-game mechanics, no matter of simple or how complex they are, you gotta analyze and learn them, which is gonna take its time and cost some mistakes. Complaining to that degree isn't gonna change anything unless you take action and practice them.
Regarding MoF's bombs, I'll have to side with my previous three commenters. It's quite the opposite to what you're claiming. They clear a large portion of the screen from bullets and enemies, do considerable damage to bosses (except Kanako's VoWG) and even auto-collect all dropped items for you. Perhaps you were using it the wrong way, like hugging the walls, which is only way I can think of in which their effect radius only affects a small portion of the screen and hardly do anything.
Also in TD, if you want to maximize resource gain, you gotta go extra fast on some stage enemies or figure out routes of how to shoot them down, such as in stages 2-5 for the former and stage 6 for the latter. Considering this, it's kinda hard to comprehend that you can't be bothered to go up to the PoC line at least once after every spellcard in DDC, since if you don't die on them, they reward you with two fragments at once, of which one is obtained by PoC-ing the point and power items.
Like Satori suggested, maybe you could try out some fangames to calm your nerves? "Riverbed Soul Saver" could be fitting, since it drops resources en masse, you've got an extra large auto-collection radius and you get extra lives and bombs in no time. Or "Book of Star Mythology", a very recent release. Both contain really broken powerful shottypes with which you can charge through the games with ease.
-
With Bombs I'm usually dying with nothing left in the chamber.
Like Satori suggested, maybe you could try out some fangames to calm your nerves? "Riverbed Soul Saver" could be fitting, since it drops resources en masse, you've got an extra large auto-collection radius and you get extra lives and bombs in no time. Or "Book of Star Mythology", a very recent release. Both contain really broken powerful shottypes with which you can charge through the games with ease.
Thing is I just am like "Just say Not to OC Do Not Steal".
What's the point?
Let's ignore gameplay mechanics that you dislike for now. There are enough Touhou games such that you can ignore the ones you dislike entirely. I assume you apply the same strategy to Megaman games.
You've identified problem areas, like Reimu's teleporting, which cause you to be miserable. A solution to satisfaction is to overcome these problem areas, one at a time. Every challenge you overcome is an accomplishment to be proud of.
What other problem areas are you facing? The players in this forum are very willing to help.
Also, watching gameplay videos on YouTube is more helpful than you would expect.
The Youtube watches I've found is the complete opposite as they approach things different enough from me to make it utterly worthless.
And it's Seija's curving/reverse curving shots. Not sure if it's proximity based but they always seem to do the direction flip right into me when I'm predicting them the other way.
You say you were drawn in by other aspects of the fandom, but you still seem pretty set on improving yourself on the games themselves. And again, how come you feel you need to win to the point of depression? It's okay if you don't succeed in a run; in spite of the memes, very few actual players these days judge a Touhou fan based on their skill level. It's okay if you play on easy mode, and it's okay if you don't like every aspect of every game. However, you do seem to have a desire to improve yourself, so what should you do?
In my humble opinion, you seem a little fixated on the idea that any scoring system requiring adaptation is the source of your frustrations. While it is true that I speak as a lunatic player, I feel there is fundamentally no difference to how we approach the score systems. As someone who doesn't like scoring, I don't really make much of an effort to adapt to them. To use DDC as an example, I never plan bombs in order to get a 2.0 multiplier and free life fragment; I just head to the PoC when it's convenient. In LoLK, I only graze to the extent that it's complementary to survival and my own preferred playing style. However, this still usually gives me adequate resources, even if it's far less than what I could potentially get.
If you truly hate the score systems as much as you say you do, then I think your efforts would be better directed at getting better at the patterns themselves, rather than focusing on gaining enough resources to tank everything. While it's true that is a valid strategy, if the effort is making you miserable, then you should try another route - one which lets you focus on what you find fun. As you get better at each individual segment, think about how many resources you need, and focus only on getting enough, instead of doing everything optimally. That's my recommendation, at least. If nothing else, you'll find yourself restarting a lot less often due to messing up a risky scoring maneuver.
And the only reason is that this is pretty much my only connection to doing anything actually Touhou related. The reason to keep going is to actually show I'm not utter garbage at everything.
This just becomes rote memorization which is just the opposite of fun.
To say that MoF bombs are either weak or don't clear any bullets would be saying Alice's bombs in Imperishable Night is good for damage, or that either of Reimu/Suika and Marisa/Patchouli in SA can clear bullets effectively.
Regarding what nintendonut mentioned just above: it sounds more like if the intended way intrudes on a survival level, that causes frustration for you. But, is it right to expect to play along every shmup's rules in the same way? Certainly, we can't expect to play any of the Touhou games like you might play Ikaruga, Jamestown without Vaunt, CAVE games without hypers, or KAMUI without using any of the lightning weapons, or Hellsinker and all of its "oddities".
Though, it doesn't seem like we agree about that.
Since this Reimu conversation keeps continuing, I suppose a major factor is: Magic Team or Scarlet Team? I guarantee you that Remilia's shot is far better at damaging Reimu's nonspells than Alice's doll laser, but if you're adamant on using Magic then have you considered using Malice to damage the innumerable familiars at once?
With MoF bombs you need to be right in the face of the boss which makes it more than useless. If a bomb doesn't actually go the full screen length it's garbage
And I don't touch any of those games mentioned. No interest in them at all.
I usually run Magic Team. And usually it's just Alice to ignore the familiars and just let it time out. It's just a really bad drag.
You complain about DDC forcing you to go to the item collection point, yet:
EoSD and MoF use score-extends. You're going to need to collect items, preferably with the POC, in order to reach all possible score-extends.
PCB and IN use item-number extends. You're also going to need to collect items with the POC.
DDC also gives you resources on capturing spell cards. Speaking of spell cards, always make it a habit to POC after a spell card, no matter the outcome. Doesn't matter the game, you have enough time to do it on any.
The POC is almost always good. Obviously you shouldn't get greedy but POCing at whatever opportunity is largely encouraged, even as a survival player.
You also don't need to be "good" to get lives in any game. I'm an utter shit kid at the games and I still routinely manage to get enough lives to barely clear most of the games on hard difficulty (and a few on lunatic). And trust me, the titles mentioned do give plenty of lives even if you're bad at the game. You just need to take every opportunity you can to get lives and bombs.
Also, the fact that you're talking about disliking aspects about mechanics that aren't even true genuinely pisses me off. MoF bombs useless, seriously?
Most of SA bombs (ReimuB, ReimuC, MarisaA, MarisaB) require you to plant it in front of their face. Planned bombs are important here. You get power back so it's not as punishing to use bombs.
You complain about grazing in LoLK. But streaming is a very good way to dodge bullets and you graze lots of bullets this way. Also, since you're playing on a lower difficulty, it's much easier to "hug" bullets to get graze items per bullet. Especially if you play as Reisen and use her shield bomb, which makes grazing even easier and also allows you to take 3 hits per bomb.
TD actually doesn't give as many lives as other games. You can get a total of 7 lives (5 extends) and a large number of bombs through trance. With proper routing you can even get an 8th life, but no more than that. TD basically requires you to abuse trance hypers as well as bombing spell cards for even more trance, then using trance on life pieces to double the amount you get.
UFO routes are largely static. If you play in a similar way, expect to get tokens the same way. UFO tokens are not random at all, the same enemies drop the same tokens and they fly around in similar ways.
Watch a bunch of replays and examine what they are doing. People aren't going to take you seriously if you continue to not listen to advice and state things that aren't true whatsoever.
If you want some simple 1cc's, play some fangames. A lot of them have much more generous systems and usually contain shot types that trivialize the game.
Streaming is just saying Eat bullets to the face even when Focused Reimu. Hugging shots is just saying "Zelinko go ram the shots! Enjoy losing lives due to this asinine gimmick"
Looking at later on in LoLK there really isn't a point. Especially considering it's just painfully bad looking later on. And Clownpeice having forced movement style cards sucks. At least Futo's rotation cards are nice slow and not having many shots showing up.
With SA I run Reimu A/Marisa C so those bombs don't have range requirements.
UFO's a game I've pretty much written off along with LoLK. With DDC If there's a way to figure out if it's direction is fixed on Seiga's screen rotation is that or not will determine if it's in the "Don't bother even playing" catagory. She's pretty much "Bomb this boss as it's just not fun in the slightest."
TD's an easy game so the amount of lives isn't as noticed.
Also with IN/PCB style collection you don't really need to hit POC as much as you'd think just grab them normally.
1cc list in order
Imperishable Night - Magic Team (Easy)
Imperishable Night - Border Team (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Youmu (Easy)
Mountain of Faith - Marisa B (Easy)
Imperishable Night - Scarlet Team (Easy)
Ten Desires - Reimu (Easy)
Ten Desires - Sanae (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Mystia (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Yuuka (Easy)
Perfect Cherry Blossom - Sakuya A (Easy)
Ten Desires - Marisa (Easy)
Phantasmaoria of Dim Dream - Marisa (Easy) (1st Shot)
Lotus Land Story - Marisa A (Easy) (1st Shot)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Reimu (Easy)
Phantasmagoria of Flower View - Komachi (Easy)
Subterranian Animism - Reimu A (Easy)
-
1cc list in order
Well then, you're not garbage at everything. Problem solved.
PCB in particular is on the tough side for an Easy mode, there's not much difference between Easy and Normal. I think you could get a Normal 1cc if you gave it a go.
My tips:
* First of all, be patient. Moving up a difficulty level is always going to be a process of gradual improvement until you get the 1cc.
* Start by clearing the game with continues, so as to unlock every stage in stage practice. (Exception: In MoF, because of the weird continue system, clearing with continues is harder than just getting a 1cc. However, MoF has a bug where watching a replay unlocks stage practice.)
* Split your time about half-and-half between attempting runs and doing stage practice. Both are important. Even when you're not ready for the 1cc yet, it boosts your confidence to get further than you could previously, come out of the early game with more resources than you're used to having, and watch yourself improve.
* Post a Normal replay so that we can have a look at it and give specific tips. There might be particular things you could do better, or particular patterns you're not understanding, that would be obvious if a more experienced player looked at your replay.
* Don't be so dismissive of streaming. It makes some of the nastiest-looking sections really easy. All you need to do is, if a lot of aimed bullets are coming at you at the same time (for example, most of MoF Stage 4), make small, steady movements and they will all miss you. If this isn't working for you, keep practising until you get it. It will improve your overall game enormously.
-
Thing is I just am like "Just say Not to OC Do Not Steal".
What's the point?
And the only reason is that this is pretty much my only connection to doing anything actually Touhou related. The reason to keep going is to actually show I'm not utter garbage at everything.
This just becomes rote memorization which is just the opposite of fun.
With MoF bombs you need to be right in the face of the boss which makes it more than useless. If a bomb doesn't actually go the full screen length it's garbage.
Streaming is just saying Eat bullets to the face even when Focused Reimu. Hugging shots is just saying "Zelinko go ram the shots! Enjoy losing lives due to this asinine gimmick"
With SA I run Reimu A/Marisa C so those bombs don't have range requirements.
I'm not quite sure what you're wanting to express with that response. The official Touhou characters are OCs too, not only fan-created characters, if we're talking about ZUN. Also no, those don't really have "do not steal" written all over their faces. What would the Touhou fan community be if that applied to ZUN's (the official) characters?
Also, just bomb if you feel unsure about certain areas and if you still have any in stock. What are they here for if you don't even use them to shield your remaining lives? Sure, full screen bombs do make our lives easier, which however doesn't mean that bombs which don't cover the entire screen are completely useless. You really are exaggerating it here. Don't just sit around and move.
Streaming and grazing bullets isn't exactly running into them, given if you're doing it properly. You'll have to navigate into safe and more empty areas slowly to misdirect these streams of bullets, making them moving past you. Again, only sitting around on one spot would of course make you an easy target for any non-static pattern. That wouldn't even be the game's fault anymore if you don't bother actively dodging, or at least try to dodge bullets targeted at you. You gotta keep moving, focused or not. Accusing in-game gimmicks because of said reason is really arbitrary and has pretty much no other reason than you lacking practice, and I'm saying that just as a really average Normal Mode player who's been playing Touhou on and off for the past four years and because it was part of my experience playing Touhou. You gotta practice to become better, which includes grazing, streaming and pattern memorization. The stage practice function exists for a reason. These can really help making certain stage sections and boss attacks much easier, heed Mikuru's advice.
-
IMHO the only Intrusive gimmick there is that you could make an argument off and I would kind of agree with is UFO's gimmick, because how good you are at it really influences your resources so much, and actively routing the things are pretty much mandatory to do on higher difficulties, unlike every other games gimmick...its extremely "in your face" about it. Thats the only one though. I never felt like any other games gimmick forced me to do anything.
-
You know, I'd make point-by-point responses to certain parts of your post like what others have been doing, but at this point Zelinko, it's becoming clear that you're too wrapped up in how you think these games should be played for any of it to get through to you. You're continuously giving excuses to both honest advice that could help you approach these games better as well as corrections to otherwise incorrect info (done with no malicious intent, mind you). And given your wording, you're also repeatedly presenting your stances towards certain features of the games like hard facts rather than opinions - if not to the rest of us, then to yourself. But more on that in a sec. The real clincher is you saying you're only playing Touhou at this point to prove you're "not utter garbage at everything". This screams to me that the underlying problem to all this is your own pride. Whenever something comes up that makes things harder than you're used to or otherwise "gets in the way", you try to justify it after the fact rather than consider that your stance on something might be wrong. This includes your stated reason for playing as well - you want to show you're "not utter garbage", so when you fail at something, you try to pin the blame on the games instead of accepting that you might not be good enough yet and need to improve. You're only holding yourself back when you think like this, Zelinko. Trust me on this, I know better than some exactly how this works. When I first started out, I got into a really bad habit of blaming things like the RNG for me not being able to get better results. I plateaued hard because of this, and playing Touhou started making me feel miserable. It wasn't until I accepted that this mindset was holding me back and that I wasn't doing enough to get better that I actually started getting better again. Now, whether or not you continue to play Touhou yourself, you're gonna have to swallow some of your pride here. Whether it's recognizing you're holding yourself back like I described, or even just accepting that you don't have to prove you're "not utter garbage" at Touhou and moving on, you'll end up much better off in the long run and not needlessly making yourself suffer.
-
With MoF bombs you need to be right in the face of the boss which makes it more than useless. If a bomb doesn't actually go the full screen length it's garbage
Are you sure you're just not confusing MoF bombs with a couple bombs in SA? MoF bombs do plenty of damage regardless of where they're detonated on the screen. Some SA bombs (such as MarisaA's and MarisaB's bombs) require you to use them pointblank for their full potential.
Also your logic on what makes a bomb 'good' is pretty faulty. There are plenty of amazing bombs in the series that don't cover the entire screen. Maybe you should stop whining so much and play more.
-
If your overall goal is to enjoy yourself, we need to understand where your enjoyment comes from. From what you said, your primary motivation for playing is to "show that you're not utter garbage at everything." In other words, you want to be good at the games.
Right now, you're obviously not feeling that way. You have a few options going forward:
-Get better at the games, and keep playing them
-Don't get better at the games, and keep playing them
-Stop playing them
The second option is not going to work for you. If your motivation is to feel like you're good at the games, playing on easy mode is not going to do it for you. There are a couple of reasons for this. In gaming, I've found that beating games can bring enjoyment in two ways. It can either be a personal achievement, where you feel good because it was hard for you personally, or it can be impressive to others (or some combination). If you got visceral pleasure from achieving an easy 1CC, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so I doubt easy 1CCs count as personal achievements. As for impressing others, easy 1CCs are not impressive. Again, they are worth doing if you personally find them to be challenging and worthy goals, but we both know an easy mode 1CC is not impressing anyone else.
What about the first option then? Well, if you challenge yourself to improve, you can start taking on the higher difficulties of the game. Beating higher difficulties will DEFINITELY feel like a personal accomplishment, and even a normal 1CC is starting to edge into the territory of "impressive" for a lot of people. This, I think, is the toughest option, but the one that will make you happiest. You will have to put the thought out of your mind that it is "the game's fault", or "the resource systems are broken", or "it's RNG's fault that you died". Even if those things are true, they're not going to help you achieve your goal. These are games we're talking about. Your mindset needs to be "what can I improve to better my chances of winning?" If you don't have that mindset, you will lose.
What about the third option? Well, if getting better doesn't appeal to you, and you really just can't bring yourself to enjoy the games, then quit. There's no shame in doing so. At the end of the day, we are trying to convert time into dopamine in the most efficient way possible. If Touhou does not make you happy, then quit.
-
As for impressing others, easy 1CCs are not impressive.
I'd argue otherwise. Even an easy clear impresses me because it shows someone who might be completely new to shmup genres actually took the time to learn, play and beat the game. It is an achievement just like any other successful achievement. What matters is what will you do from there. I play almost exclusively on lunatic now, runs or practice, because I feel like it's where I stand and that's how I can improve.
-
I guess I should clarify. I'm always impressed when someone does something that's hard for them, but something like an easy 1CC doesn't make me go "Whoa, you did that? You're good!", and I feel like that's what Zelinko wants.
-
when you fail at something, you try to pin the blame on the games instead of accepting that you might not be good enough yet and need to improve. You're only holding yourself back when you think like this, Zelinko. Trust me on this, I know better than some exactly how this works. When I first started out, I got into a really bad habit of blaming things like the RNG for me not being able to get better results. I plateaued hard because of this, and playing Touhou started making me feel miserable. It wasn't until I accepted that this mindset was holding me back and that I wasn't doing enough to get better that I actually started getting better again. Now, whether or not you continue to play Touhou yourself, you're gonna have to swallow some of your pride here.
This is the best advice in this entire thread. The same thing happened to me - and as a result, it took the better part of a year for me to move up from "can clear easy" to "can clear normal." Once I finally realized I was working with the wrong mindset and forced myself to seriously examine the reasons I was failing, suddenly I started making progress again. A week later, I'd cleared IN and LLS normal. Just a month after that, I'd normal 1cc'd nearly the entire series, and even picked up a couple of extra and hard clears as well. It's amazing what a sudden change of perspective can do.
There's nothing wrong with playing on easy mode, if you're comfortable with playing at that skill level. But if you want to get better at the games, you need a certain level of genuine dissatisfaction with your current skill level. If you can't beat the games at the desired difficulty, it's not because the game is cheating you out of your victory. It's because you're not good enough. That's the mindset you need.
I'd argue otherwise. Even an easy clear impresses me because it shows someone who might be completely new to shmup genres actually took the time to learn, play and beat the game. It is an achievement just like any other successful achievement. What matters is what will you do from there. I play almost exclusively on lunatic now, runs or practice, because I feel like it's where I stand and that's how I can improve.
Agreed. It doesn't matter whether it's "I finally beat IN easy," or "I just cleared LoLK Lunatic no miss no bomb no focus no vertical 120fps." Regardless of where it falls on some kind of absolute difficulty scale, a new accomplishment is a new accomplishment, and it's always something to be proud of. It's a sign of self-improvement, and that's never a bad thing. That said, one needs to be able to eventually look past that in order to continue progressing. Enjoy your accomplishment, be proud of it, but if you want to keep getting better, you have to be able to put that pride behind you and keep focusing on the next step forward.
And finally, on the subject of MoF's bombs: they most certainly don't require you to be point-blank, because (a) the circle drifts upwards over time, allowing it to hit across the entire vertical length of the screen, and (b) bosses still take significant damage from bombs even if they're outside the circle. They're quite a bit more effective than you're giving them credit for, and liberal use of bombs can make beating the game much easier (as Drake has rather thoroughly demonstrated (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,2368.0.html)).
-
Well then, you're not garbage at everything. Problem solved.
PCB in particular is on the tough side for an Easy mode, there's not much difference between Easy and Normal. I think you could get a Normal 1cc if you gave it a go.
My tips:
* First of all, be patient. Moving up a difficulty level is always going to be a process of gradual improvement until you get the 1cc.
* Start by clearing the game with continues, so as to unlock every stage in stage practice. (Exception: In MoF, because of the weird continue system, clearing with continues is harder than just getting a 1cc. However, MoF has a bug where watching a replay unlocks stage practice.)
* Split your time about half-and-half between attempting runs and doing stage practice. Both are important. Even when you're not ready for the 1cc yet, it boosts your confidence to get further than you could previously, come out of the early game with more resources than you're used to having, and watch yourself improve.
* Post a Normal replay so that we can have a look at it and give specific tips. There might be particular things you could do better, or particular patterns you're not understanding, that would be obvious if a more experienced player looked at your replay.
* Don't be so dismissive of streaming. It makes some of the nastiest-looking sections really easy. All you need to do is, if a lot of aimed bullets are coming at you at the same time (for example, most of MoF Stage 4), make small, steady movements and they will all miss you. If this isn't working for you, keep practising until you get it. It will improve your overall game enormously.
Stage replay often does the complete opposite for me. It utterly crushes me when I look at the math that I've used more lives than possible.
SA/N runs (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkS-81lfm3wKUZZwQSqGTjZTnDHiEN_rh)
Ten Desires/N Run (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nvGFd6eckw)
At least TenDesires actually lets you IIRC continue from point instead of continue from stage restart which just results in endlessly being stuck in a loop.
-
Stage replay often does the complete opposite for me. It utterly crushes me when I look at the math that I've used more lives than possible.
SA/N runs (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkS-81lfm3wKUZZwQSqGTjZTnDHiEN_rh)
Ten Desires/N Run (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nvGFd6eckw)
At least TenDesires actually lets you IIRC continue from point instead of continue from stage restart which just results in endlessly being stuck in a loop.
Then try to no miss the practice stages? Try to route?
People practice all the time, and it truly does work wonders.
-
After a quick glance at some of those videos, I don't think your skills are the main problem. You're not playing at a Normal level yet, but you did pull off some reasonably proficient dodges when the game forced you to (look at the way you handled Green-Eyed Monster in the first SA video, for example). As far as I can tell, your main issue is that you're too afraid of the bullets. I suspected that would be the case based on what you said earlier about grazing and streaming, but it really is your main concern at this point. Most of your deaths are the result of panic-induced overreaction - a bullet comes near you, then you panic and run away from it, only to run right into another bullet.
I can't stress enough how important it is for you to learn how to stream. Not only does it trivialize many otherwise difficult segments in its own right, it leads into some other extremely important skills. In your case, perhaps the most important thing that would come out of it is learning to trust yourself. Trust your dodging, trust your hitbox. You're always trying to be as far away from the bullets as possible, which seems reasonable on the surface, but it's really crippling you.
-
First post ever, so hey people.
Anyway it seems like you could use a break.When i first started playing Touhou, in December, i became so obsessed with a lunatic clear, that it wasn't a fun experience anymore.Instead of keeping on going, i took a few weeks break, and came back when i felt like playing again (then i pulled an 8 hour session for the clear, but let's not talk about that).I was slightly rusty, but at least it became fun to play once more.I would also give you other advices about practicing ecc... but it seems that the thread is full of them
-
I agree with all the others about the mindset.
The games aren't going to change for you unless you use cheats. If you want to get better, you're gonna have to change yourself.
You said that rote memorization is the opposite of fun. I'm not going to argue about the "fun" part, but I will say that you cannot avoid memorization in Touhou.
NES Megaman games aren't easy. How did you beat them? You had to learn, and then memorize the levels, enemies, and bosses. And then you defeated them and beat the games.
The exact same principles apply to Touhou. Learn the stages, learn what the enemies and bosses do, and defeat them.
You said that Youtube players approach things differently from you, which makes those Youtube videos "worthless." Have you considered why they approach things differently? Remember, the Youtube players aren't dying in places that you currently are.
MegamanOmega184 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC192AYL4RJRYMgdDoxxFe_g)'s videos are pretty good, and his video annotations explain his strategies very well.
After a quick glance at some of those videos, I don't think your skills are the main problem. You're not playing at a Normal level yet, but you did pull off some reasonably proficient dodges when the game forced you to (look at the way you handled Green-Eyed Monster in the first SA video, for example). As far as I can tell, your main issue is that you're too afraid of the bullets. I suspected that would be the case based on what you said earlier about grazing and streaming, but it really is your main concern at this point. Most of your deaths are the result of panic-induced overreaction - a bullet comes near you, then you panic and run away from it, only to run right into another bullet.
I can't stress enough how important it is for you to learn how to stream. Not only does it trivialize many otherwise difficult segments in its own right, it leads into some other extremely important skills. In your case, perhaps the most important thing that would come out of it is learning to trust yourself. Trust your dodging, trust your hitbox. You're always trying to be as far away from the bullets as possible, which seems reasonable on the surface, but it's really crippling you.
I agree with this. You can't avoid not touching the bullets, and streaming isn't hard to learn.
Pull up SA Stage 2 Normal. Start near the bottom-left corner of the screen. Don't shoot, just hold shift and tap Right. Rinse and repeat until you get 100 graze at the stage title.
Related to this is to not hug the bottom of the screen if you don't have to. If you hug the bottom, you can't dodge downward, which limits your mobility. It also puts you further away from the PoC.
This would also explain why you think MoF's bombs are awful; if you're always hugging the bottom the bombs never reach the boss.
-
Once again... whether or not MoF bombs reach the boss is irrelevant. When a boss is on screen, bombs will damage the entire screen instead of just its area of effect.
Also, you can't die unless you actually touch a bullet in the affected part of the hitbox! Everything is not as dangerous as it looks. Make smaller taps. Things aimed directly at you are entirely avoidable by even the tiniest tap. A big mistake players make when they're new is making movements that are way too large when they don't need to be.
So just remember, as long as nothing actually hits you, you can't die. If you think something's going to hit you and there's no way of getting out, just bomb. You could try to luckdodge but that rarely works in that situation.
-
Thank you for posting replays, because it means people can actually advise your play.
Your problems in-game are almost exclusively:
- Lack of understanding the patterns
- Lack of routing/planning (which results from the above)
- Panic (which results partially from the above two)
As I had suspected earlier, you practice ineffectively and are not learning from your mistakes nor others' successes. You are going to keep feeling as though you are just blindly feeding credits without getting anywhere because that's exactly what you are doing, and despite all your whining about watching others play, looking at how others accomplish things is an important key to learn when you have no idea what you're doing.
I watched just the last video of SA Stage 4.
- You do perfectly fine for the first half of the stage. You more or less have a plan and you execute it.
- Once it gets to the green section, you seem to acknowledge that you're having bullets aimed at you but repeatedly turn around right back into them. You die a bunch because of this. You can actually bomb through most of this section and still keep a lot of power, or if you're more confident than that you can just not turn around and bomb when you reach the sides.
- You can clear the purple amulet fairies at the end by tapping once in the same direction for each fairy. Their patterns aim at you and as long as you this you're fine.
- I can't tell if you have a plan for the last fairy or not. You kind of look like you might but didn't get into position. The pattern is completely static.
- I can't really advise you on Satori because you seem to flail wildly with no plan at all. Essentially you move too much and die because of it.
Most of your problems of panicking and making wide movements way more than necessary are normal for new players. You aren't doing anything of the ordinary and your play is perfectly fine for where you're at. Your main issue is that you aren't learning and you don't seem to be open to the prospect of learning, but instead prefer blaming the games for faults that they don't have just to appease your own sense of righteousness, which is why this discussion is so stupid.
-
After a quick glance at some of those videos, I don't think your skills are the main problem. You're not playing at a Normal level yet, but you did pull off some reasonably proficient dodges when the game forced you to (look at the way you handled Green-Eyed Monster in the first SA video, for example). As far as I can tell, your main issue is that you're too afraid of the bullets. I suspected that would be the case based on what you said earlier about grazing and streaming, but it really is your main concern at this point. Most of your deaths are the result of panic-induced overreaction - a bullet comes near you, then you panic and run away from it, only to run right into another bullet.
I can't stress enough how important it is for you to learn how to stream. Not only does it trivialize many otherwise difficult segments in its own right, it leads into some other extremely important skills. In your case, perhaps the most important thing that would come out of it is learning to trust yourself. Trust your dodging, trust your hitbox. You're always trying to be as far away from the bullets as possible, which seems reasonable on the surface, but it's really crippling you.
Developing self confidence is kinda the problem. I Might go in good but once it goes wrong it goes extremely wrong. And often once it's wrong I can't recover at all. Morale broken and all that.
My PCB 1cc run IIRC has a 10 minute break realtime around the time of the Prisrivers as it lead to that just panic to the point where It was close to scrubbing the run as it might have still been too close to the 0 second failure I had on the survival card the time before. The clock was at Zero but didn't clear.
Then try to no miss the practice stages? Try to route?
People practice all the time, and it truly does work wonders.
Not smart enough or having enough memory to Route. Practice stages tend to make some situations worse as coming into early ones at full power is often impossible and that difference in firepower radically changes how a boss fight goes due to how having their TTKs reduced by such a degree that you're not seeing full patterns at times.
I agree with all the others about the mindset.
The games aren't going to change for you unless you use cheats. If you want to get better, you're gonna have to change yourself.
You said that rote memorization is the opposite of fun. I'm not going to argue about the "fun" part, but I will say that you cannot avoid memorization in Touhou.
NES Megaman games aren't easy. How did you beat them? You had to learn, and then memorize the levels, enemies, and bosses. And then you defeated them and beat the games.
The exact same principles apply to Touhou. Learn the stages, learn what the enemies and bosses do, and defeat them.
You said that Youtube players approach things differently from you, which makes those Youtube videos "worthless." Have you considered why they approach things differently? Remember, the Youtube players aren't dying in places that you currently are.
MegamanOmega184 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC192AYL4RJRYMgdDoxxFe_g)'s videos are pretty good, and his video annotations explain his strategies very well.I agree with this. You can't avoid not touching the bullets, and streaming isn't hard to learn.
Pull up SA Stage 2 Normal. Start near the bottom-left corner of the screen. Don't shoot, just hold shift and tap Right. Rinse and repeat until you get 100 graze at the stage title.
Related to this is to not hug the bottom of the screen if you don't have to. If you hug the bottom, you can't dodge downward, which limits your mobility. It also puts you further away from the PoC.
This would also explain why you think MoF's bombs are awful; if you're always hugging the bottom the bombs never reach the boss.
With Megaman never underestimate how useful it is in 4+ to grind for E-tanks and lives. And in MM3 to start with A6 (red). A lot of Megaman games also suffer from being various degrees of stupidly broken. MM1's Elecbeam, MM2's Metal Blades, MM3's Shadow Blade, Half of MM4's arsenal, MM5's Buster, everything is shit in MM6... Why do you even exist MM6? Seriously?
With the Youtube cases a lot of it is such a skill gap that it's not useful with my abilities. I can't pull off what they do or even half the reactions to do so. I can get all the Whys and Hows but It's a case of I can't cash those checks even if I have it perfected in theory, no plan surviving contact with the enemy and all that. With SA/MoF the entire bomb=Power forces me to minimize bombing when I could have out of worry of put simply not having enough firepower to kill enemies or the boss. Being stuck with 1.xx power is agonizingly bad.
SA outside the bomb weirdness is pretty much an ideal game mechanically as it really is already aesthetically ... Now if the Yukari copied patterns weren't so impossible to understand...
----
With the fangames mentioned are they just danmakufu scripts or stand alone executables? Since one's just grab and the others is a bit more... questionable to get.
-
Your abilities will develop progressively as long as you regularly practice. You'll improve your memory over time if you keep focusing on patterns that you have difficulties to deal with and learning them step by step, perhaps best with some videos of decent Normal Mode runs. No matter how wide the gap between your current skills and the other players' are, if you keep practicing on how to approach and deal with the difficult spots, the gap will gradually narrow and eventually even close itself. Don't think too much about clearing the entire game first, that'll make you lose focus on individual patterns and as a result your overall progress rather slows down. Working through the patterns themselves one by one will accelerate your progress of clearing the entire game, because then you've got a grip on the difficult parts and make the game as a whole considerably less stressful. Don't let a single screw-up break you down. Everyone makes mistakes, and it's a vital part of acquiring new skills.
As for the fangames, the fully developed ones are indeed Danmakufu scripts (except "Shining Shooting Star"), but are always pre-packaged including an executable, such as "Riverbed Soul Saver" and "Book of Star Mythology", they run perfectly without switching locales. If you rather want to play older releases such as "Mystical Power Plant" or "The Last Comer", you'll have to switch to a Japanese locale to run them properly (in case of SSS, it's a Chinese one). LocaleSwitch (https://mega.nz/#!zd40CDRQ!ttsgB4-KHFXtXeaj6iSFd9Qcf1qkzj2a55-i0tb-HL0) provides a simple solution for both.
-
Your abilities will develop progressively as long as you regularly practice. You'll improve your memory over time if you keep focusing on patterns that you have difficulties to deal with and learning them step by step, perhaps best with some videos of decent Normal Mode runs. No matter how wide the gap between your current skills and the other players' are, if you keep practicing on how to approach and deal with the difficult spots, the gap will gradually narrow and eventually even close itself. Don't think too much about clearing the entire game first, that'll make you lose focus on individual patterns and as a result your overall progress rather slows down. Working through the patterns themselves one by one will accelerate your progress of clearing the entire game, because then you've got a grip on the difficult parts and make the game as a whole considerably less stressful. Don't let a single screw-up break you down. Everyone makes mistakes, and it's a vital part of acquiring new skills.
As for the fangames, the fully developed ones are indeed Danmakufu scripts (except "Shining Shooting Star"), but are always pre-packaged including an executable, such as "Riverbed Soul Saver" and "Book of Star Mythology", they run perfectly without switching locales. If you rather want to play older releases such as "Mystical Power Plant" or "The Last Comer", you'll have to switch to a Japanese locale to run them properly (in case of SSS, it's a Chinese one). LocaleSwitch (https://mega.nz/#!zd40CDRQ!ttsgB4-KHFXtXeaj6iSFd9Qcf1qkzj2a55-i0tb-HL0) provides a simple solution for both.
Ahh in part it was if some of those fangames were for sales making it a case of piracy etc. But which were the easy ones again? I'm trying to remember which ones are.
I just wish there was some playable Okuu ones...
Still I need a mood enough to play Touhou as I'm often just needing enough alertness to play as I'm not fully awake for it well exhaustion degrades performance and it shows up far more in danmaku games than anything.
-
mystical power plant literally has playable utsuho
-
With SA/MoF the entire bomb=Power forces me to minimize bombing when I could have out of worry of put simply not having enough firepower to kill enemies or the boss. Being stuck with 1.xx power is agonizingly bad.
In MoF that's really not true. I just had a run on Stage 4 (Normal) in stage practice to remind myself how it goes, in which I bombed every moderately difficult pattern. It went like this:
* Start at 4.00 power.
* The first section is trivial streaming, so I collected items up to 4.80 power.
* Bomb the first waterfall. With auto-collection from the bomb, I was already back up to 4.00.
* More streaming.
* Spend two bombs on Momiji. With the items she gives, I was already back up to 3.80.
* Bomb the second waterfall. Back up to 3.00.
* More streaming.
* Bomb all three of the popcorn fairies. They all give you back some power.
* Bomb the crows. Back to 3.00 power for Aya.
* With the power Aya gives you between attacks, you can now bomb every pattern Aya has and that's the entire stage and boss complete and you haven't had to dodge anything except for the easy streaming sections.
That said, even though it is possible to no-miss the stage just by bombing everything, don't worry if you make a mistake and die once or twice in a stage. The game lets you die up to eight times and it's still a 1cc.
-
And just for fun -- I know Drake has already done something similar (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,2368.0.html), but I wanted to do this myself without watching his so I could have an honest appraisal of what it feels like -- I saved a replay of getting through MoF, the entire game, bombing or dying to everything that wasn't streaming. (Except Exiled Doll, because I was out of power at that point and wasn't sure how many lives I'd need for the run. Well, I finished with a life to spare, plus two silly deaths when I had power during the run, so I could have stuck to the condition and suicided there too.)
Now, it certainly isn't easy to clear the game this way. The self-imposed condition of bombing everything, and suiciding for more bombs, uses up most of your lives, and for a first 1cc, you should aim to have more spare lives at the end for Kanako's final card (as in most Touhous, bombs don't work on the final card). Still, you can easily get through Stages 1 to 5 this way to unlock them in stage practice, then play them so as to work out which parts you feel confident enough not to bomb on, and which you will still bomb. That should, if you are willing to put in the time to practise, definitely be enough to get you to Stage 6 with enough resources to clear it.
But really, the point of this experiment is simply to illustrate the moral: don't be afraid to bomb. Even if you bomb, then die to a later attack because of having low power, that's better than dying to the first attack because you were afraid to bomb, then still having to bomb the second attack. Both scenarios lose a life but the second loses 1 power as well.
-
Ahh in part it was if some of those fangames were for sales making it a case of piracy etc. But which were the easy ones again? I'm trying to remember which ones are.
I just wish there was some playable Okuu ones...
Still I need a mood enough to play Touhou as I'm often just needing enough alertness to play as I'm not fully awake for it well exhaustion degrades performance and it shows up far more in danmaku games than anything.
Once you manage to get into practicing and learn to navigate the player and read the patterns at the same time, the stress of failure will go away. As for learning stuff, failures are essential for understanding your weaknesses, so there's no need to take them that hard. It was part of my personal experience when I got into Touhou games as well, constantly lamenting my own apparent inability to do something while I actually can do it is basically humiliating myself, and that's really unnecessary. Don't look back, try to always look ahead.
From the fangames that I've played so far (that would be all the games I've listed except TLC), I'd recommend to you either to give RSS or MPP (hence you want a playable Utsuho) a start, while I think RSS has a simpler and more generous gameplay mechanic than MPP does, but I'll leave that choice to you. Also, the mentioned fangames are actually all free, otherwise their developers wouldn't provide downloads afaik.
-
Honestly, most of the good advice has already been said. But I can definitely relate to hitting the wall hard. What got me over my wall was actually the photo games. Their puzzle-like structure kept my mind engaged, while actually completing them trained me in the necessary skills for the more traditional shooters. Some levels can only be solved with streaming, or full screen use, or getting in close to bosses, or micrododging through tight bullets. And once I was more used to these techniques, it became a lot easier for me to get those Normal and Hard 1ccs.
-
Also a lot of games contain spell practice and boss practice, and/or patches that allow easy access to either.
Use these and abuse these. Preferably on lunatic. You can become very used to patterns very fast by just practicing attacks on lunatic.
Also, shmup fangames are almost always free. Don't worry about it.
implying anyone would ever dare sell a Danmakufu script Kappa
-
Honestly, most of the good advice has already been said. But I can definitely relate to hitting the wall hard. What got me over my wall was actually the photo games. Their puzzle-like structure kept my mind engaged, while actually completing them trained me in the necessary skills for the more traditional shooters. Some levels can only be solved with streaming, or full screen use, or getting in close to bosses, or micrododging through tight bullets. And once I was more used to these techniques, it became a lot easier for me to get those Normal and Hard 1ccs.
The photography games are just slamming my head into a wall until it miraculously breaks outside like the first two stages. It was just quickly leading to just more and more frustation as often there was no way out or way to do it. Like Yamame's string card. Literally no idea how to deal with it.
And since I ain't found a score.dat that's a full unlock (or at least a Hatate unlock) it's a no real will to push
Once you manage to get into practicing and learn to navigate the player and read the patterns at the same time, the stress of failure will go away. As for learning stuff, failures are essential for understanding your weaknesses, so there's no need to take them that hard. It was part of my personal experience when I got into Touhou games as well, constantly lamenting my own apparent inability to do something while I actually can do it is basically humiliating myself, and that's really unnecessary. Don't look back, try to always look ahead.
From the fangames that I've played so far (that would be all the games I've listed except TLC), I'd recommend to you either to give RSS or MPP (hence you want a playable Utsuho) a start, while I think RSS has a simpler and more generous gameplay mechanic than MPP does, but I'll leave that choice to you. Also, the mentioned fangames are actually all free, otherwise their developers wouldn't provide downloads afaik.
Uh how do I find those? They're not on wiki soo... yea.
Also was my videos looking good for video quality? Ran it through MSI Afterburner's recorder at 60FPS and I Think high settings. Only 480p but I Think it looks good.
-
The photography games are just slamming my head into a wall until it miraculously breaks outside like the first two stages. It was just quickly leading to just more and more frustation as often there was no way out or way to do it. Like Yamame's string card. Literally no idea how to deal with it.
Not that one scene stops you from progressing, but if you're really stuck on one scene, again, see how other people are attempting it. Some of the more stressful scenes later on can take hundreds, thousand-plus attempts for people to clear and most people haven't cleared every scene. You really aren't that stuck, even if you don't want to figure a solution out on your own.
And of course, if you don't want to learn how to stream, you're absolutely never going to clear 3-4, because it is an exercise in streaming.
-
The photography games are just slamming my head into a wall until it miraculously breaks outside like the first two stages. It was just quickly leading to just more and more frustation as often there was no way out or way to do it. Like Yamame's string card. Literally no idea how to deal with it.
Honestly? That stage, or the StB equivalent with Alice, is exactly where I expected you to have problems. There's two steps to solving it, and both of them are things you have refused to engage with previously, streaming and planning your bombs. But that's a matter of mindset more than it is skill. If you insist on approaching everything in the exact same manner, that's just going to get you riddled with bullets whether it be in these puzzles or in the main games. Yamame's just a bit more blatant about it. Being able to choose the right tool for the situation will get you much, much farther than raw dodging skills will. And if pride or frustration gets in the way, step away to clear your mind when you need to.
Some of the more stressful scenes later on can take hundreds, thousand-plus attempts for people to clear...
Yeah, I can testify to that. I thought the Eientei section's reputation was overblown until I actually got there and died oh so many times. I'm a bit of an overdodger myself, but if I can pull through that hell, I'm certain a Normal 1cc is within your reach.
-
Uh how do I find those? They're not on wiki soo... yea.
There's a blog (http://th-jss.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/) by the developers themselves where you can find the downloads for TLC, MPP, RSS and WNSP. BoSM is also listed there, but has a standalone website (http://osayou.net/tokusetu/mahojo/download/). For BoSM, download the bottommost version on said website using the MEGA mirror, since the Axfc one tends to show NSFW ads.
-
There's a blog (http://th-jss.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/) by the developers themselves where you can find the downloads for TLC, MPP, RSS and WNSP. BoSM is also listed there, but has a standalone website (http://osayou.net/tokusetu/mahojo/download/). For BoSM, download the bottommost version on said website using the MEGA mirror, since the Axfc one tends to show NSFW ads.
Stupid question but what does the skill things do in MPP? keep getting things flashing on after getting the falling leaf items but no clue if they're passive or things I trigger? Also really feels funky not having the audio feedback of doing hits especially against bosses since I kinda track bosses by sound a lot
Also with the entire Spell practice is blacked out is weird. Pretty game although the suddenly lasers in stage 2 is just weird. Presuming fixed pattern but kinda cheap as hell on first encounter and without audio confirmation of scoring hits I wasn't even sure if I was actually damaging something or the beams just blocked the shots. Also not really a fan of the SUDDENLY Lily White Blitzing North pattern of the opening fairy.
Not that one scene stops you from progressing, but if you're really stuck on one scene, again, see how other people are attempting it. Some of the more stressful scenes later on can take hundreds, thousand-plus attempts for people to clear and most people haven't cleared every scene. You really aren't that stuck, even if you don't want to figure a solution out on your own.
And of course, if you don't want to learn how to stream, you're absolutely never going to clear 3-4, because it is an exercise in streaming.
Tried going slow. Just get caught by the rebounds either way. Just was a skip as I think I got enough to get to 4... I think?
-
As you collect leaf items, you'll gradually fill the gauge in the bottom left corner of the screen. As the gauge fills, you'll start accruing passive bonuses - smaller hitbox, increased damage, etc. The effects are small, but not negligible. When you fill the gauge completely, you'll get a life piece and a bomb piece - but the gauge also resets to empty, so you lose the skill bonuses. That said, it's still almost always worth it to do so; the resource pieces are worth more than the bonuses. Just note that the PoC doesn't work unless you have at least one level of the gauge filled, so it'll be momentarily disabled after you do that.
-
As you collect leaf items, you'll gradually fill the gauge in the bottom left corner of the screen. As the gauge fills, you'll start accruing passive bonuses - smaller hitbox, increased damage, etc. The effects are small, but not negligible. When you fill the gauge completely, you'll get a life piece and a bomb piece - but the gauge also resets to empty, so you lose the skill bonuses. That said, it's still almost always worth it to do so; the resource pieces are worth more than the bonuses. Just note that the PoC doesn't work unless you have at least one level of the gauge filled, so it'll be momentarily disabled after you do that.
So what's the meter on the sidebar for then? I really don't figure what it means.
Still good to know about the mechanic's work as I figured the Leaf Items gave the bits for resources. Not sure if I like Reimu/Okuu A or B more since both have nice unfoused shot types. I mean holy shit an aggressive high speed, strong tracking homing shot from Reimu. Ain't seen that in ages.
Also is my configuration wrong as I'm getting hit sounds or pop sounds for fairy kills
Also what does "Effect Cut" mean?
-
Well then, you're not garbage at everything. Problem solved.
PCB in particular is on the tough side for an Easy mode, there's not much difference between Easy and Normal. I think you could get a Normal 1cc if you gave it a go.
My tips:
* First of all, be patient. Moving up a difficulty level is always going to be a process of gradual improvement until you get the 1cc.
* Start by clearing the game with continues, so as to unlock every stage in stage practice. (Exception: In MoF, because of the weird continue system, clearing with continues is harder than just getting a 1cc. However, MoF has a bug where watching a replay unlocks stage practice.)
* Split your time about half-and-half between attempting runs and doing stage practice. Both are important. Even when you're not ready for the 1cc yet, it boosts your confidence to get further than you could previously, come out of the early game with more resources than you're used to having, and watch yourself improve.
* Post a Normal replay so that we can have a look at it and give specific tips. There might be particular things you could do better, or particular patterns you're not understanding, that would be obvious if a more experienced player looked at your replay.
* Don't be so dismissive of streaming. It makes some of the nastiest-looking sections really easy. All you need to do is, if a lot of aimed bullets are coming at you at the same time (for example, most of MoF Stage 4), make small, steady movements and they will all miss you. If this isn't working for you, keep practising until you get it. It will improve your overall game enormously.
So tried PCB again. Remembered why I didn't play PCB after the 1CC I sneaked through.
I get what feel panic attacks playing PCB. None of the others do it but I find myself shaking while playing Perfect Cherry Blossom. Like it's physically like bad to play that one for me.
I don't understand why it's that one only.
Apparently first time through on Normal. Got almost to Youmu. Almost puked twice so that's less good.
Replay (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlhEZ9_HisI)
Also can we embed Youtube videos here? Also the new encode looks nice...
Edit: If I'm puking up my guts when I wake up then I guess it might not be PCB to blame?
-
Yeah, PCB can be pretty tense at times, and adrenaline can do some weird things to you (I certainly tend to get pretty damn jittery against Youmu), but that does sound like there's something more than just the game at fault. Hope you feel better soon.
That said, I have to say that the replay shows a clear improvement. Compared to the SA runs you posted earlier in the thread, you're definitely panicking less, you seem more at home with the idea of bullets passing near you, and I even saw some decent streaming here and there. You do still have a long way to go (you're still reluctant to leave the bottom center of the screen, and your movements still sometimes freeze up when there are bullets around - particularly visible in the second half of stage 1), but the progress is visible. I think you're on the right track.
I'm noticing a few other good signs in the video as well. You're readily willing to bomb if it looks like something might go wrong (which isn't a bad thing), but when your bombs run out, you cope remarkably well with having that safety net taken away (see stage 3; solid performance, especially against Alice). Keep at it - you're making good progress on your fundamentals, and the rest will follow from that eventually.
-
Yeah, PCB can be pretty tense at times, and adrenaline can do some weird things to you (I certainly tend to get pretty damn jittery against Youmu), but that does sound like there's something more than just the game at fault. Hope you feel better soon.
That said, I have to say that the replay shows a clear improvement. Compared to the SA runs you posted earlier in the thread, you're definitely panicking less, you seem more at home with the idea of bullets passing near you, and I even saw some decent streaming here and there. You do still have a long way to go (you're still reluctant to leave the bottom center of the screen, and your movements still sometimes freeze up when there are bullets around - particularly visible in the second half of stage 1), but the progress is visible. I think you're on the right track.
I'm noticing a few other good signs in the video as well. You're readily willing to bomb if it looks like something might go wrong (which isn't a bad thing), but when your bombs run out, you cope remarkably well with having that safety net taken away (see stage 3; solid performance, especially against Alice). Keep at it - you're making good progress on your fundamentals, and the rest will follow from that eventually.
It's really weird as well Even with the more technically intense aspects of SA I don't get half as fucked up as I do with PC in cases where technically the difficulty is far lower. Also I think you might have noticed a few "Why is this not working" pushes towards POC earlier. I forgot that in PCB you needed full power for it and kinda well those parts ain't coming back.
With knowing I have a fixed number of bombs I think I'm more willing to use them as I know I have X bombs left and I won't bleed power out of it. Having Bombs draw from power always kinda gets me gunshy as less bang means less kill which means less refill which is kinda bad.
Sakuya A's bomb I like because of how long it runs. It's the only reason I cleared PCB normally is that with how she gets a lot of them and how her bombs last a long time. You can cover a surprising amount of Reflowering's survival with effective bomb trains. Especially after I lost an earlier run at 0 Seconds left on the clock. I checked the replay. It said Zero.
Alice is weird. Like I'm trying to think if to treat it more like IN's fights were blowing the dolls would be worth it (to reduce shots at me) or if it's just better to blast her directly. Especially since well. I don't remember which cards had replacing dolls.
Stage 4's fairies kinda forced me to treat them like that. I didn't even see it as streaming as usually I was just jinking the aim once I got the majority firing at me. Not sure if with the snowflakes(?) in that stage if it's a SA stage 5 case where the best option is NOT to shoot as they'll naturally go off after a bit and just create a single evasion event or are they shoot them before they shoot you? Too many bullets on screen while firing just makes it hard for me to tell who's firing or not.
Also with the Prismriver choice. I kinda forgot which one was the easiest in phase 2. I went with Lunasa as I vaguely remember that the Merlin was the "White Demon" and not to shoot her which kinda forced me into a corner to ensure that I did enough damage Lunasa to force her cards.
Edit: Maybe it was a sign I was heading for a kinda psychological breakdown as I kinda had a mini one later that day...
-
Alice is weird. Like I'm trying to think if to treat it more like IN's fights were blowing the dolls would be worth it (to reduce shots at me) or if it's just better to blast her directly. Especially since well. I don't remember which cards had replacing dolls.
Her dolls either have no hitboxes, or in the case of Dutch Dolls (second card) there is no difference when destroying them since they fire immediately.
Stage 4's fairies kinda forced me to treat them like that. I didn't even see it as streaming as usually I was just jinking the aim once I got the majority firing at me. Not sure if with the snowflakes(?) in that stage if it's a SA stage 5 case where the best option is NOT to shoot as they'll naturally go off after a bit and just create a single evasion event or are they shoot them before they shoot you? Too many bullets on screen while firing just makes it hard for me to tell who's firing or not.
Watch! A! Replay!
You made it way harder on yourself by never letting go of the fire button. If you watch your very own replay you should be able to obviously see that they only fire when you destroy them. If you leave these enemies alone they fire a very easy pattern when leaving.
Also with the Prismriver choice. I kinda forgot which one was the easiest in phase 2.
Lyrica is generally considered the easiest.
You've barely done any runs, but with five starting lives and Sakuya's bomb count with your willingness to spam it probably won't take long to clear. You should probably reduce the starting lives back down to three eventually though.
-
Her dolls either have no hitboxes, or in the case of Dutch Dolls (second card) there is no difference when destroying them since they fire immediately.
Watch! A! Replay!
You made it way harder on yourself by never letting go of the fire button. If you watch your very own replay you should be able to obviously see that they only fire when you destroy them. If you leave these enemies alone they fire a very easy pattern when leaving.
Lyrica is generally considered the easiest.
You've barely done any runs, but with five starting lives and Sakuya's bomb count with your willingness to spam it probably won't take long to clear. You should probably reduce the starting lives back down to three eventually though.
I did watch my replay I still couldn't tell. It's like too many to track so I couldn't figure it out. It's like too much going on so I couldn't focus on looking at them as it's just too much to look at and my eye loses track and I can't focus on my shots in that case as everything's going too fast.
And really once I get the 1CC it's listed as done and I move onto the next one. Why bother coming back after you've completed the objective. Not like I'm banging out relic hunts in 'frame.
Still no clue why you'd want to drop your life count. If the game gives me these resources why wouldn't I use them? I don't care about score and starting with max lives just hurts the score multiplier.
-
Lyrica is generally considered the easiest.
Lyrica's not hard, but I actually think Zelinko made the right choice by going for Lunasa. She's relatively forgiving on the lower difficulties, whereas Lyrica requires disciplined streaming for her non and a willingness to move a fair distance up the screen for her spell - Zelinko is still struggling with both of those.
That said, I'd second the suggestion to look up some replays of stage 4. Some of the enemy groups are easier if you just shoot them, some are far easier if you let them live. Definitely look up some other players' runs and try to learn which is which, but until you get a feel for the stage, I'd recommend playing it safe and not shooting them - sparing a group that's safe to kill is a lot less dangerous than the opposite case.
And really once I get the 1CC it's listed as done and I move onto the next one. Why bother coming back after you've completed the objective.
Because "PCB 1CC with five starting lives" and "PCB with three starting lives" are two different objectives. It's a simple matter of raising the bar once you've cleared the easier version. There's also the fact that many people don't consider a run "legit" unless it's played at the default starting resources. While I do prefer to use the default lives, I think that's kind of a silly attitude - if you're playing for fun, just play the game how you want to play it - but if, for whatever reason, you do want to compare your run against what other players are doing, that'll be hard to do if you're using different settings, as the increased starting lives mean you're effectively playing a (slightly) different game.
-
Lyrica's not hard, but I actually think Zelinko made the right choice by going for Lunasa. She's relatively forgiving on the lower difficulties, whereas Lyrica requires disciplined streaming for her non and a willingness to move a fair distance up the screen for her spell - Zelinko is still struggling with both of those.
That said, I'd second the suggestion to look up some replays of stage 4. Some of the enemy groups are easier if you just shoot them, some are far easier if you let them live. Definitely look up some other players' runs and try to learn which is which, but until you get a feel for the stage, I'd recommend playing it safe and not shooting them - sparing a group that's safe to kill is a lot less dangerous than the opposite case.
Because "PCB 1CC with five starting lives" and "PCB with three starting lives" are two different objectives. It's a simple matter of raising the bar once you've cleared the easier version. There's also the fact that many people don't consider a run "legit" unless it's played at the default starting resources. While I do prefer to use the default lives, I think that's kind of a silly attitude - if you're playing for fun, just play the game how you want to play it - but if, for whatever reason, you do want to compare your run against what other players are doing, that'll be hard to do if you're using different settings, as the increased starting lives mean you're effectively playing a (slightly) different game.
I'll do a test run with holding fire as long as I can against the spinny things but I need to blast the Fairies though.
But like some of my other clears with high life starts I didn't lose enough that it'd matter so It'd be like effectively that but Meh. I just still can't figure out how it'd be different although with IN starting at max makes lives into bombs until you die.
Still not sure about it being hard to compare because they're facing same patterns and stuff I dunno how it'd be different to compare against.
I checked my old replays for PCB. I always went after Lunasa because the others just didn't work out nicely and burned more bombs.
-
I'll do a test run with holding fire as long as I can against the spinny things but I need to blast the Fairies though.
This strategy is correct. The spinny things shoot tons of garbage bullets, but only if you shoot them.
But like some of my other clears with high life starts I didn't lose enough that it'd matter so It'd be like effectively that but Meh. I just still can't figure out how it'd be different although with IN starting at max makes lives into bombs until you die.
Starting with 3 lives is harder. That's really all it is for the most part. If you're satisfied with a 1CC with maximum starting lives, don't worry about it and don't listen to other people's judgements. Just know that "1CC with 3 starting lives" is a goal to attain down the road.
Though imo EoSD is easier to 1CC with 3 lives because more points means more extends earlier.
-
That's actually true for all games. You want to start with 3 or less starting lives because you will hit the extend cap quite soon with max lives. It actually hurts you if an extend you would have gotten is otherwise turned into a bomb.
Besides, for MoF and later, you can't even change the life settings anyway, so you should make it a goal to get used to the default setting.
-
The point about default lives is just a matter of communication and comparison. If you say "I've 1cc'd PCB" the expectation is that you've used default lives. With personal accomplishments it literally doesn't matter, clear whatever you want, but anyone else saying "1cc" already implies default lives whereas starting with max is "1cc with max starting lives". It's not that it "isn't legit" otherwise, but claiming a run is a "1cc" while using max lives is considered to be incorrect.
Nova's comment on Lyrica vs Lunasa is also more correct, after thinking about it. You should really just learn how to stream properly though.
-
The point about default lives is just a matter of communication and comparison. If you say "I've 1cc'd PCB" the expectation is that you've used default lives. With personal accomplishments it literally doesn't matter, clear whatever you want, but anyone else saying "1cc" already implies default lives whereas starting with max is "1cc with max starting lives". It's not that it "isn't legit" otherwise, but claiming a run is a "1cc" while using max lives is considered to be incorrect.
Nova's comment on Lyrica vs Lunasa is also more correct, after thinking about it. You should really just learn how to stream properly though.
See I hear I 1CC'd it is you got the completion don't matter how many you burned.
That's actually true for all games. You want to start with 3 or less starting lives because you will hit the extend cap quite soon with max lives. It actually hurts you if an extend you would have gotten is otherwise turned into a bomb.
Besides, for MoF and later, you can't even change the life settings anyway, so you should make it a goal to get used to the default setting.
Only time I ever hit lifecap and converted to bombs was in IN but IN is IN. Never had it in PCB. Not even sure if I ever hit 999 tier for extends in that. But apparently drops are RNG soo mighta had bad RNG or just not collecty enough on my end.
The point about default lives is just a matter of communication and comparison. If you say "I've 1cc'd PCB" the expectation is that you've used default lives. With personal accomplishments it literally doesn't matter, clear whatever you want, but anyone else saying "1cc" already implies default lives whereas starting with max is "1cc with max starting lives". It's not that it "isn't legit" otherwise, but claiming a run is a "1cc" while using max lives is considered to be incorrect.
Nova's comment on Lyrica vs Lunasa is also more correct, after thinking about it. You should really just learn how to stream properly though.
Thing is I think about actively doing things in Touhou games outside "HOLD YOUR FIRE" areas (kinda have to put sticky notes on the edge of the monitor the first few time) and general card rules I tend to overthink as my best dodges are just kinda rolling on just instinct and stuff. I don't plan em or stuff It just happens.
I mean considering my 1cc list I mean missing UFO DDC and LoLNO I've done a buncha start with 3s.
I might punishment run DDC,all songs become Poi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLUyxmKFk74) to see if it might work. Although I did 5 hours of World of Warships Ranked to this and actually was Unicum that day so who the fuck knows what's gonna happen.
I don't bother going back and lowering the numbers because if can clear with a lot left over then what's the point? It'd just be the same if I started with 3.
-
There is absolutely zero RNG in item drops. There might be slight variances in the drop area but the items dropped are always the same.
-
See I hear I 1CC'd it is you got the completion don't matter how many you burned.
I don't bother going back and lowering the numbers because if can clear with a lot left over then what's the point? It'd just be the same if I started with 3.
Obviously that may not be what you think of, that's why I'm mentioning it. It is a matter of when you hear any other person saying "1cc" they are implying some reasonable default conditions that do not match your own. It means you're not using the terminology in the same way other people are, and if you're communicating at all (on a forum, for example...) then there is a disconnect, because you would be elevating your own accomplishment to be equivalent to theirs, which would be wrong. If you're talking with other people you don't get to just decide what terms mean on your own.
As a note, PCB extends are 50, 125, 200, 300, 450, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, etc. There is no "999-tier" as though it counterstops, if that's what you were suggesting.
Lastly, if you can clear on five lives without ever dropping below two, then what has no point is setting it to five starting lives at all, no? You can't have your cake and eat it too: either you're playing with the assumption that you will be dropping below two extra lives and need them to clear, so own up to that -- or the assumption that the default is enough and just bear with the legitimate game over if you fail. I understand that you're content with simply clearing regardless, but that doesn't make it pointless. It isn't as though the default is five, you have to set that yourself as a handicap. For example, if you extend that logic to a case where the game lets you set infinitely many starting lives (or just a really large number), would you also find that totally acceptable to call a "1cc"? Would you be satisfied clearing that way and move onto another game? If not, you must have at least some boundary of effort.
Satori: I don't think that's the case for EoSD and PCB. I don't know how the distribution works but there are definitely random factors; you can see this just by restarting and gunning down the first few fairies in the same order every time. It definitely isn't to the extent that it even slightly affects gameplay outside of I guess WR-tier scorerunning though.
-
Obviously that may not be what you think of, that's why I'm mentioning it. It is a matter of when you hear any other person saying "1cc" they are implying some reasonable default conditions that do not match your own. It means you're not using the terminology in the same way other people are, and if you're communicating at all (on a forum, for example...) then there is a disconnect, because you would be elevating your own accomplishment to be equivalent to theirs, which would be wrong. If you're talking with other people you don't get to just decide what terms mean on your own.
As a note, PCB extends are 50, 125, 200, 300, 450, 800, 1000, 1200, 1400, 1600, etc. There is no "999-tier" as though it counterstops, if that's what you were suggesting.
Lastly, if you can clear on five lives without ever dropping below two, then what has no point is setting it to five starting lives at all, no? You can't have your cake and eat it too: either you're playing with the assumption that you will be dropping below two extra lives and need them to clear, so own up to that -- or the assumption that the default is enough and just bear with the legitimate game over if you fail. I understand that you're content with simply clearing regardless, but that doesn't make it pointless. It isn't as though the default is five, you have to set that yourself as a handicap. For example, if you extend that logic to a case where the game lets you set infinitely many starting lives (or just a really large number), would you also find that totally acceptable to call a "1cc"? Would you be satisfied clearing that way and move onto another game? If not, you must have at least some boundary of effort.
Satori: I don't think that's the case for EoSD and PCB. I don't know how the distribution works but there are definitely random factors; you can see this just by restarting and gunning down the first few fairies in the same order every time. It definitely isn't to the extent that it even slightly affects gameplay outside of I guess WR-tier scorerunning though.
999 tier was from IN since I remembered that number showing up a lot on my various character clears. I forgot what PCB had for levels.
I was only hearing RNG because It was brought up elsewhere with being a thing for EOSD/PCB for drops apparently.
But I cleared the game without continuing. The game doesn't care how many lives you start with when it comes to ending so according to the game it's a valid 1CC according to the game at least.
-
IN doesn't have 999, but it shows 9999 as the "next" extend when you've got all the extends. You'll also see 9999 as the time orb target in stages 4 and 5.
It's more important to use what words mean on the forum, rather than what words mean to the game, when interacting with the forum. For instance, IN thinks FinalA isn't a 1cc (if you've previously cleared both on Easy, then clear FinalA on Normal, it still says "Final Selectable" instead of "FinalA cleared"), but the forum generally regards either FinalA or FinalB being a valid 1cc.
-
But I cleared the game without continuing. The game doesn't care how many lives you start with when it comes to ending so according to the game it's a valid 1CC according to the game at least.
Yes, we've established that and I've said so multiple times, but that wasn't my question. The logic that adding a handicap so you start with 5 lives is acceptable to you can just as easily be applied to a game that gives you however many lives you want to start out with. Just say, 1000 lives. Everyone can start with 1000 lives if they want. Somebody may die 8 times and clear, somebody else may die 15 times and clear, somebody might just run into bullets the whole time and die 200 times but still clear. If this Touhou game existed, would you be willing to clear and then move onto another game, because as long as the game let you beat it "without continuing", you're satisfied?
-
IN doesn't have 999, but it shows 9999 as the "next" extend when you've got all the extends. You'll also see 9999 as the time orb target in stages 4 and 5.
It's more important to use what words mean on the forum, rather than what words mean to the game, when interacting with the forum. For instance, IN thinks FinalA isn't a 1cc (if you've previously cleared both on Easy, then clear FinalA on Normal, it still says "Final Selectable" instead of "FinalA cleared"), but the forum generally regards either FinalA or FinalB being a valid 1cc.
Hey you're right it's 9999 I knew it was a buncha 9s so eh close enough.
For some reason thought it only went up to 999 Checked replay yea up I ended with 1202/9999
I've don't think I actually 1cc/Final A on Easy. when I got IN it had a buncha score.dat unlocked so I had Extra and everyone's routes opened on both sides. Never checked what my other character 1CCs to see how many lives I used. The one I recorded I just kinda when finding out that the final rush was pretty much optional effectively took a knee was overwhelmed.
Yes, we've established that and I've said so multiple times, but that wasn't my question. The logic that adding a handicap so you start with 5 lives is acceptable to you can just as easily be applied to a game that gives you however many lives you want to start out with. Just say, 1000 lives. Everyone starts with 1000 lives. Somebody may die 8 times and clear, somebody else may die 15 times and clear, somebody might just run into bullets the whole time and die 200 times but still clear. If this Touhou game existed, would you be willing to clear and then move onto another game, because as long as the game let you beat it "without continuing", you're satisfied?
Probably. I mean that's what Point Device Mode is anyhow.
-
Probably. I mean that's what Point Device Mode is anyhow.
The point here is that, in the community, "1cc" refers to clearing the game without continues using the default amount of lives.
You are free to be personally satisfied with clearing the game without continues starting with the max amount of lives, and that is totally fine. But this is not what a 1cc is in the general understanding of the community.
-
The point here is that, in the community, "1cc" refers to clearing the game without continues using the default amount of lives.
You are free to be personally satisfied with clearing the game without continues starting with the max amount of lives, and that is totally fine. But this is not what a 1cc is in the general understanding of the community.
But what is "The Community"? Because my 1CC on PCB, IN and EOSD are legit and you cannot convince me else wise.
-
But what is "The Community"?
It's the group of people you're going to get a timeout away from if you don't knock off the bad-faith posting.
-
But what is "The Community"? Because my 1CC on PCB, IN and EOSD are legit and you cannot convince me else wise.
I see you've been here since 2011. Then you should be keenly aware of what is meant by "the community". You should also be aware that a clear without continues and with the default number of lives is what is generally considered to be a 1cc. You're free to use as many starting lives as you want and call your runs legit, but by the same token, everyone else is free to consider a no-continues run with max lives to not really be a 1cc.
To address "bad faith posting" for you, since you brought it up elsewhere: throughout this thread, people are bending over backwards to offer you advice, show you replays, and examine your runs. On occasion, you accept advice. On most other occasions, however, you respond with things that are either straight-up wrong (e.g. "bombs in MoF are weak") or by blaming the games for causing you personal difficulty. Throughout, and especially so in the TH16 announcement thread, there is a great deal of moving the goalposts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts). As one example: "Can't figure out the mechanics intuitively" leads to "Read the forums" which leads to "I shouldn't have to go online" with leads to "There's an in-game manual" which leads to "Yeah but it's in Japanese" which leads to "It's translated on the wiki and with thcrap" which leads to "I don't trust thcrap because java" which leads to "you can just remove the .dll" which leads to "if I am forced to remove a .dll then the software sucks" and so on.
Do you see the problem here? Every possible solution offered, all of them reasonable, leads to you introducing a new problem for everyone else to address. This is bad faith posting. The core of your complaints all boil down to "Touhou isn't a bare-bones shoot-dodge-bomb shmup" or "This takes too much effort to master, ergo the games are flawed". This is also bad faith posting.
My sincere, heartfelt advice to you would be to consider that maybe the problem isn't with Touhou. Maybe the problem isn't even with you. Maybe you just don't like the series. And that's fine. But you can't blame the games for not being what they aren't. It'd be like complaining Fallout 3 has no danmaku. And you also can't ask for advice, get advice, and then offer a new problem (read: excuse) for why that advice just won't work for you. Seriously, reconsider how you interact with the community here, and how you're approaching the games. Offering this up not as a scold, but as genuine, friendly advice.
-
But what is "The Community"? Because my 1CC on PCB, IN and EOSD are legit and you cannot convince me else wise.
Nobody said your 1ccs aren't legit. They're saying that your definition of a 1cc is different from everyone else's.
Let's say I have $1000. In my mind, that's a lot of money, and I can go tell my friends "I have a lot of money", and they might agree. But if I go into a group of millionaires and say "I have a lot of money", they're going to make certain assumptions. To them, "a lot of money" is more like a billion dollars than a thousand dollars. So while I'm not technically lying, I'm still giving them the wrong impression.
On this forum, when someone says "1CC" it's generally understood that they mean "I beat the final stage using default lives without continuing." If you use more than the default lives than yes, you may have technically 1CCd. But you're using the word differently than the rest of the forum.
Yeah you have "a lot of money", but you have to keep in mind you're talking to a group that regularly deals with millionaires. So you saying "I have a lot of money" gives us the wrong impression.
It's not really as subjective as that, but that analogy gets the point across I hope...
-
I would argue that analogy is way too lax and implies that the universally accepted definition of a 1cc is only defined that way because the people that use it are just so far above the common folk. That isn't the case at all; the majority of the fanbase, people that are comfortable sticking to Easy and Normal modes, will still acknowledge this. A better analogy is to go to the US and tell people "I have ten thousand dollars in my pocket", pull out one bill of 10000 Indonesian rupiah (https://www.google.ca/search?q=10000+IDR+to+USD) and then get mad when people say that isn't the same as ten thousand dollars.
-
I see you've been here since 2011. Then you should be keenly aware of what is meant by "the community". You should also be aware that a clear without continues and with the default number of lives is what is generally considered to be a 1cc. You're free to use as many starting lives as you want and call your runs legit, but by the same token, everyone else is free to consider a no-continues run with max lives to not really be a 1cc.
To address "bad faith posting" for you, since you brought it up elsewhere: throughout this thread, people are bending over backwards to offer you advice, show you replays, and examine your runs. On occasion, you accept advice. On most other occasions, however, you respond with things that are either straight-up wrong (e.g. "bombs in MoF are weak") or by blaming the games for causing you personal difficulty. Throughout, and especially so in the TH16 announcement thread, there is a great deal of moving the goalposts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts). As one example: "Can't figure out the mechanics intuitively" leads to "Read the forums" which leads to "I shouldn't have to go online" with leads to "There's an in-game manual" which leads to "Yeah but it's in Japanese" which leads to "It's translated on the wiki and with thcrap" which leads to "I don't trust thcrap because java" which leads to "you can just remove the .dll" which leads to "if I am forced to remove a .dll then the software sucks" and so on.
Do you see the problem here? Every possible solution offered, all of them reasonable, leads to you introducing a new problem for everyone else to address. This is bad faith posting. The core of your complaints all boil down to "Touhou isn't a bare-bones shoot-dodge-bomb shmup" or "This takes too much effort to master, ergo the games are flawed". This is also bad faith posting.
My sincere, heartfelt advice to you would be to consider that maybe the problem isn't with Touhou. Maybe the problem isn't even with you. Maybe you just don't like the series. And that's fine. But you can't blame the games for not being what they aren't. It'd be like complaining Fallout 3 has no danmaku. And you also can't ask for advice, get advice, and then offer a new problem (read: excuse) for why that advice just won't work for you. Seriously, reconsider how you interact with the community here, and how you're approaching the games. Offering this up not as a scold, but as genuine, friendly advice.
Actually I kinda registered in 2011 then kinda forgot this place existed so only came back last week (I thought the site might have died in those five years+). So no I don't know what the "Community" is. I've been getting more solutions and peeking at some replay of them even though It's more looking at how cards work than anything since I can't match their performances and routing they use as I can't remember them or they don't feel comfortable at all to use.
Of course the day I was in the th16 thread I did kinda have minor psychological meltdown so I can't remember half of what I posted in there. But, I'll admit I'm massively wrong in there.
I still say the MOF bombs feel weak if only because I'm not getting feedback from it and considering how rarely I bomb in that (Mostly on Kanako) they just are kinda trash there because of being kinda short duration and being bad at screen clearing when I NEED screen clearing bombs more than just the extremely narrow clearing, If it was a long lasting bomb I could use them more for aggressive stalling even if it's not clearing the screen that good. My PCB 1cc clear was just effectively just burning time wasting bombs on the survival card because I wasn't gonna have a 0 second failure like the last time so It wasn't an elegant solution but it made sure I was safe enough.
I could just do another IN-E Clear but what's the point? It's just redoing the same paths again. If you want me to bang out one I'll do it but I'm not sure what's the point? You're still going to mock me for it being an Easy 1CC. People have already done so.
-
Zelinko dear, I'm far from barging on others' personal affairs but I haven't seen a single person mocking you for playing on easy whatsoever. In fact, I believe that you have been somewhat selective in your interpretation of people's comments and standards in a handful of things, so I'd really recommend you to take a step back and rethink these things.
Also, another piece of friendly advice but if you ever feel like having such aforementioned "psychological meltdowns" and such, mayhap engaging in discussions (let alone with your bold and somewhat innacurate statements) isn't the best thing to do.
We all have our own opinions, but you have to understand that if so many people agree over a fact (such as MoF's bombs being fine/powerful, or 1ccs using the default livestock the game gives), it's more or less a popular opinion, and thus we can't so easily agree with a handful of your personal opinions ("I think those bombs are bad", "I think my runs are proper 1ccs", etc.)
While I believe everyone has a right to speak their mind, you have to understand that you delivering excuse after excuse backed up with nothing but your opinion and no facts isn't really contributing to discussions in a healthy way. I know it's really none of my business, but I'm trying to give honest, constructive criticism here.
Hope you take these words to the heart and reflect upon them.
(Oh and sorry for the rather off-topic post!)
-
I think you're misunderstanding me here. My point is that when you raise a complaint, if someone offers a reasonable and working solution, the fair thing to do is to at least try that solution. To instead present an excuse for why that solution will not work, and then kinda chain excuses with each new solution offered, exhausts the resources of the people sincerely offering you help and comes across as you basically not wanting to expend any effort at all. So my suggestion is that, when offered a reasonable and working solution to a problem you raise, maybe ... actually try that solution, or at the very least, stop roping people into your long chain of excuses.
No one is demanding you do your runs again, and literally no one here will mock you for Taking It Easy. I've been an Easy/Normal player for years now, and Difficulty Level Elitism is greatly frowned upon here.
I have, though, noticed you've brought up psychological problems any time you're backed into a corner. You claim you don't even remember some of the posts you made in the TH16 thread. This is really troubling, and you might want to consider just not posting at all if it causes you so much psychological stress to engage meaningfully around here.
-
I'm still getting the impression that you're taking this whole Easy-1cc and practicing-spellcards matter way too hard. There's absolutely no need to do so.
First things first, no one, literally no one here will ever look down on you for playing on Easy, please remember that. Even I belong to the folks here who still regularly play on Easy/Normal and have already engaged longer in the Touhou community than some current Lunatic players. I'm sure that this is some heavy misinterpretation on your side, the community here consists of players of all skill levels who are willing to help each other.
Secondly, you'll need time to practice the solutions that we've been trying to offer to you. No one is going to pressure you in showcasing your runs, you do them whenever you feel like it. Honestly, it's practically impossible to be instantly good at anything, thus I sincerely hope that you'll take the pieces of advice here to your heart and at least attempt them a couple of times before coming up with an empty claim that isn't really backed by anything evident. If you've been stuck while trying to figure out certain strategies, be it survival, scoring, resource gain or anything, be it our solutions or your own strategies, we'll be more than glad to help you out.
Thirdly, please try to keep your posts rational. I'm not saying at all that your opinion isn't allowed here, of course it is, but at least try to tone down your wording a bit (i.e. the usage of swear words when you're being serious about something) or people are going to misunderstand what you've been trying to say. Also please stop trying to accuse people for seemingly arbitrary reasons, much like in this thread where we've been trying to take a look at situations from your perspective so we can help you, but you still appear to be way too pressured about this. Don't be. Throwing around accusations isn't going to help anyone, and can seriously anger people sooner or later at worst. Best thing would be really to take some deep breaths and not take this whole matter way too seriously. You'll keep humiliating youself if this keeps up. Be more open for negotiations with people around here, and your psychological stress will be gone eventually.
-
I'm still getting the impression that you're taking this whole Easy-1cc and practicing-spellcards matter way too hard. There's absolutely no need to do so.
First things first, no one, literally no one here will ever look down on you for playing on Easy, please remember that. Even I belong to the folks here who still regularly play on Easy/Normal and have already engaged longer in the Touhou community than some current Lunatic players. I'm sure that this is some heavy misinterpretation on your side, the community here consists of players of all skill levels who are willing to help each other.
Secondly, you'll need time to practice the solutions that we've been trying to offer to you. No one is going to pressure you in showcasing your runs, you do them whenever you feel like it. Honestly, it's practically impossible to be instantly good at anything, thus I sincerely hope that you'll take the pieces of advice here to your heart and at least attempt them a couple of times before coming up with an empty claim that isn't really backed by anything evident. If you've been stuck while trying to figure out certain strategies, be it survival, scoring, resource gain or anything, be it our solutions or your own strategies, we'll be more than glad to help you out.
Thirdly, please try to keep your posts rational. I'm not saying at all that your opinion isn't allowed here, of course it is, but at least try to tone down your wording a bit (i.e. the usage of swear words when you're being serious about something) or people are going to misunderstand what you've been trying to say. Also please stop trying to accuse people for seemingly arbitrary reasons, much like in this thread where we've been trying to take a look at situations from your perspective so we can help you, but you still appear to be way too pressured about this. Don't be. Throwing around accusations isn't going to help anyone, and can seriously anger people sooner or later at worst. Best thing would be really to take some deep breaths and not take this whole matter way too seriously. You'll keep humiliating youself if this keeps up. Be more open for negotiations with people around here, and your psychological stress will be gone eventually.
Emotions run tend to run super high at times and just start getting me going on a kinda really bad feedback loop of anxiety and anger which leaks into the posts which results in responses which just feeds into the loop. I mean the TH16 thread's a prime example of the out of control looping. As things get stuck in my head too much and just keeps locking into that setup. Just like gotta keep fighting and when I see the reply it becomes another fight. Of course it results in a crash afterwards...
Did that base lives 1CC for IN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iimpsoKom3A)
No clue if there is streaming in there or just effective aimed baiting. I can tell you what is in there... a bunch of stupid deaths to stage enemies and probably at least one or two awful movement paths that resulted in failures to card capture.
-
Emotions run tend to run super high at times and just start getting me going on a kinda really bad feedback loop of anxiety and anger which leaks into the posts which results in responses which just feeds into the loop. I mean the TH16 thread's a prime example of the out of control looping. As things get stuck in my head too much and just keeps locking into that setup. Just like gotta keep fighting and when I see the reply it becomes another fight. Of course it results in a crash afterwards...
Here's the thing: it doesn't need to go down like that, at all. You can break the cycle before it even starts. You can accept a reasonable and workable solution to a problem you raise and try it out. If you have some kind of compulsion to "fight", as you put it, when all people are trying to do is offer you new solutions to new excuses you come up with, then yeah, maybe the best solution is to just leave the thread in question altogether. Not because people dislike you or something - no one is trying to deliberately antagonize you or belittle you here, at all - but if you have some kind of self-control issue then that's kinda on you to sort out.
-
Try to get back in. Only find myself just everything feels kinda weird with MPP. It's like at times it feels like it's running really slow but the FPS meter's saying 60. Then things seem to go warp speed and I'm pretty sure I'm not touching control.
Just immediately back into the depression playing. 16s Demo I don't want to touch yet as well. When it comes out I want it to be entirely special if that makes any sense.
I'm struggling where my replay (the one that desynched at stage 4's boss) showed it was looking easy. I can't stop making stupid mistakes. I mean I even crashed into a stationary boss for death.
Is the apparent FPS dips tied to Reimu/Okuu's ability rolling over or something?
I just don't know if I should start pushing again. I look at the replay and I can't tell what was the result of skill or just blindly stumbling into things and getting lucky. I mean Deathbombs are pure luck for me after all even with the team having 'extended deathbomb window'