Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: commandercool on July 20, 2016, 03:15:14 AM
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This is a silly idea for a thread, but it's something I got to thinking about earlier when I was trying to explain Alice's personality to someone. Hopefully someone else finds it interesting enough to spark a bit of discussion.
For those who don't know, Magic: The Gathering is a venerable trading card game about fantasy shit, and it organizes its gameplay and universe into five colors: white, blue, black, red, and green. Each color stands for a certain set of philosophies (very roughly white is order, blue is knowledge, black is ruthlessness, red is chaos, and green is instinct, although there's much more nuance than that) and theoretically anything that exists should be able to be defined by a color or combination of colors. It's a common nerd pastime to try to figure out what color things are, just like trying to figure out what Dungeons and Dragons alignment characters or people are.
If you don't know much about Magic's color system, this article (http://gamersrepose.withinmyworld.org/colorphilosophies.php) is a decent enough distillation of it and the official Wizards of the Coast articles about the individual colors it links are even better, if a lot wordier. There are definitions behind what every combination of colors up to three represents as well (beyond three colors and definitions get too muddy to be useful), but most of that can be intuited if you understand the individual colors.
Anyway, I was thinking earlier about how it's fairly tricky to categorize a lot of Touhou characters into Magic's color system because they're so nuanced. I was specifically trying to figure out Alice, and was wondering what other people's take on it is, but I'm kind of curious about other characters as well.
So the way I see it Alice is blue above all else, being dedicated to the quiet and mostly solitary pursuit of her craft. That doesn't fully explain her weird cruel streak though. Her casual willingness to blow up and otherwise mutilate her dolls doesn't really seem blue. At first I was thinking it may be red, since it does usually take the form of a fiery explosion, but red's self-destruction is more a matter of recklessness and Alice seems more calculated than that to me, and not at all reckless. So I guess that makes it a black willingness to use any means to justify her ends or possibly even a deliberate act of cruelty. I think Alice Margatroid is blue/black. There may be shades of white in there too, with her dolls possibly being some kind of attempt to bring control and order into her world, but I don't think it's enough to make her white/blue/black.
Does that seem right to anyone else, or does anyone see it a different way? And does anyone have any other characters that might be tricky or fun to define using Magic's color system?
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I've always pegged Alice as being red/blue combined, since that's sort of typically been associated with innovation, inventors, and crafters, although her being a shard of white-blue-black also fits.
Reimu I've tended to associate as white-green since white is typically about social order while green is about natural order, and with how Gensokyo works the two tend to greatly overlap. Marisa I see as being blue-black or blue-black-red since she's seeking self-centered goals such as immortality.
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Reimu is definitely white, but I'm not sure if she's white/green or white/red. I think she is reckless and careless enough to feel pretty red, but I think that impression might be slanted by the way the games work since she's always throwing herself into incidents. Manga Reimu seems more white/green. I guess a case could be made for mono-white too.
I think Marisa is probably blue/red. She's into self-improvement through study, but she's seemingly not always the most meticulous, careful, or dedicated. I can't think of many examples of Marisa being outright ruthless though, she seems too solitary for that. Again I might be skewing red because I'm used to the way the video game plots are laid out, with the heroines leaping into battle with seemingly not much thought, but I think that's fairly applicable to her text representations too. I could see her being mono-blue or blue-red, but she's definitely not green or white and I don't think she's black either.
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How about a Sultai (blue-black-green) Yukari, favoring blue? Black represents her goals to enforce terror, and her ruthless schemes. Green is for her guardianship over both the physical and metaphysical nature of Gensokyo, and her known use of its powerful creatures. But Yukari's greatest strengths are her incredible psychological mind and her boundary abilities, both of which are solidly under the blue umbrella. As Mary she was probably pure blue, but time and Igniting have changed her.
And then there's Tenshi, who I see as Orzhov (black-white). Her selfish personality and use of souls through her sword point towards Black, but at the same time her divine nature and arrogance show the White side of her. There is definitely an argument for her having Red, due to the spontaneity of her incident and her use of Earthquakes (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=190551&type=card), but I don't see her as reckless as many do. After all, she had a backup plan, with the whole "become defacto god of shrine" thing.
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I see Yukari as more of a White-Blue, with a tint of black (Actually, isn't she could be Gray-Blue?). She is the guardian of Gensokyo after all, wicked or not. Although she's in control, it's not like she actively seeking it (Though it's more like she known everything is in her hand). Guess she could be Black-Blue in the beginning, but turn gray as she aged. I don't see how she could fit into green though, as conventional nature and her do not match.
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I don't see much green in Yukari. Green is about instinct and natural talent as much as it is about nature, and I don't think Yukari probably indulges her instinct all that much. It's hard to say though. She might be able to fit green with her stewardship of Gensokyo paralleling green's mechanical connection to land, but white has a similar aspect. I think she's definitely blue, probably white, could very well have some black in her, but I don't see much green or any red.
Tenshi being white/black never would have occurred to me, but it does make some sense. Once again I probably would have skewed red, but that may just be the superficial connection to stone and earthquakes.
What about the major races of Gensokyo? It seems like humans are white, kappa and magicians are blue, a lot of various youkai (although surprisingly few of the ones we know by name) are black, oni are overwhelmingly red, and tengu are probably green.
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Remilia... She's definitively Red. Her recklessness and childish wonder to the world is her most defining trait. Not too sure if she could be green, due to her reference to pure strength, or just mono-red. Sakuya would be White and Blue, but it's in such a way to complement her master's Red, kinda like a background colours. Patchouli would be Blue, but it's also look like it's been dye with Red over time, as she's also display the same curiosity and reckless as Remilia. Hong Meiling would be White-Green, kinda like a garden of white flower. Flandre would be Red too, but it's like blood red compare to her sister's brilliant Crimson.... though surprisingly, I see tint of Blue.
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Your evil five-sided color sphere cannot contain Alice's seven-color cubic wisdom.
FIVE COLOR IS WORD EVIL!
Five Colors cannot express the perfect synchronous cubic nature of reality! It is an evil lie and falls short by 1.4 dimensions and plunges into singularity!
EDUCATORS ARE GUILTY OF SPREADING FIVE COLOR WORD EVIL! THEY ARE EVIL WORD BASTARDS!
Not a single goddamn person alive can deny the wisdom of Harmonic Seven-Color Cubic Wisdom. No one has been able to successfully debate me on this issue and claim the $10,000 prize for disproving it. It is impossible
EVERY SINGLE WIZARD OF THE COAST IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE STATE OF THIS WORLD BY TEACHING FIVE COLOR LIES. NO HELL BURNS HOT ENOUGH FOR THEM AND NO FATE CAN DELIVER THEM THERE SOON ENOUGH. -PURVIS RAY THE WISEST HUMAN
The Fortune Teller denied Seven Color Harmony Wisdom. Perhaps he deserved his extermination.
FIVE COLOR ALICE IS A FALSEHOOD. THERE ARE SEVEN COLORS IN ALICE AND SEVEN HARMONIOUS CUBIC CYCLES. YOU HAVE BEEN EDUCATED STUPID BY DUELING ACADEMIES AND DENY 1.4 DIMENSIONS. YOU CANNOT CREATE WITH 5 COLOR SINGULARITY EVIL. ONLY SEVEN COLOR WISDOM CAN ENCAPSULATE THE TRUE NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE YOU PIGS.
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Seven colors? Preposterous. Everyone knows there's only five colors. Colorless isn't a color. Gold isn't a color.
The Time Cube is safely confined to the Time Vault and the Wizards rules team has finally cracked its arcane Oracle text. TIME CUBE HOLDS NO POWER HERE!
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So what you're saying is, Alice is a Phyrexian and needs to be purged? Can't argue with that. ;)
Good points on Yukari. I agree that red is absolutely not part of her makeup at all. I'm not too sure on white myself, I'd guess it depends on how active a protector she is and where you think her onmyoudo abilities lie. But yeah, heavily, heavily blue.
On Reimu, I'm going back and forth between pure white and white with a splash of red. I'm weighting her laziness and tsundereness towards red here. Though the point about natural ability can be used to argue green as well.
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So what you're saying is, Alice is a Phyrexian and needs to be purged? Can't argue with that. ;)
Good points on Yukari. I agree that red is absolutely not part of her makeup at all. I'm not too sure on white myself, I'd guess it depends on how active a protector she is and where you think her onmyoudo abilities lie. But yeah, heavily, heavily blue.
Given that Yukari pretty much created Gensokyo's structure with the formation of the barrier I can see her pretty solidly as part-white.
Where would Yuyuko fall? I've been wanting to put her as green/white/black because I find that utterly hilarious for flavor reasons but I'm not sure if that would actually work
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Where would Yuyuko fall? I've been wanting to put her as green/white/black because I find that utterly hilarious for flavor reasons but I'm not sure if that would actually work
I would add black....because she's a ghost.
Edit: Oops, you already had black there. Never mind.
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I think Yuyuko is black/green for sure. She's definitely black and probably green, white is also not impossible.
I'll do everybody by game for the first few game. Early-game minor characters will lean toward superficial choices because their personalities aren't that well-defined.
EoSD:
Reimu-White/Red/Green
Marisa-Blue/Red
Rumia-Black
Daiyousie-Blue
Cirno-Blue
Hong Meiling-Green
Koakuma-Black
Patchouli-Blue
Sakuya-White/Blue*
Remilia-Black/Red
Flandre-Black/Red**
PCB:
Letty-Blue
Chen-Green
Alice-Blue/Black
Lily White-White/Green
Various Prismrivers-White/Black
Youmu-White/Black
Yuyuko-Black/Green
Ran-Blue
Yukari-White/Blue/Black
So out of the first two games that's six white, nine blue, nine black, four red, and five green including some overlap. Not what I would have guessed at all. Judging by these, if Gensokyo was a land it might tap for black and/or blue. Red is the big loser, notably with zero red characters in PCB.
*Initially had her as Blue/Red. Her mindless loyalty could be interpreted as red or white, and time stop could be interpreted as extra combat phases and/or double strike (red), or tapping things and preventing them from untapping (white). I think she might conceivably be all three.
**I briefly had her being Blue/Red as kind of a gimmicky choice with blue to represent Four Of A Kind, but red can make copies as well, temporary ones, which seems more fitting.
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Yuyuko is definitely green and black at the least, because of their association with the cycle of life and death, and her cavalier attitude towards pretty much everything. I'm not really seeing the white though, because while she's nominally in charge of the Netherworld, it's a pretty lax and hands-off place. Youmu would be a better fit for green-black-white IMO, and for her, heavy on the white.
Yuuka is certainly red-green, no?
And cut by a list of stuff. I like the earlier idea of Meiling having some white to her, but other than that, these seem pretty solid.
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Wouldn't Cirno and Dai (and all fairies for that matter) be Green instead of Blue? Fairies are the embodiment of nature in Touhou.
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Yuuka is certainly red-green, no?
Mmmmaybe? She definitely has green, but I could see her bleeding into red, blue, and/or black. Red is probably the best fit.
And cut by a list of stuff. I like the earlier idea of Meiling having some white to her, but other than that, these seem pretty solid.
Yeah, that makes sense. She probably has Defender and that does lean white.
Wouldn't Cirno and Dai (and all fairies for that matter) be Green instead of Blue? Fairies are the embodiment of nature in Touhou.
Conceivably, but keep in mind that the natural world isn't owned exclusively by green. They're small fliers, which is absolutely not green, and Cirno is themed around ice and water, which is definitely blue. Daiyousei could be green maybe, but the fact that she's a small flying creature who lives in a lake means that feels pretty wrong to me.
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Wait a second...
That doesn't fully explain her weird cruel streak though. Her casual willingness to blow up and otherwise mutilate her dolls doesn't really seem blue. At first I was thinking it may be red, since it does usually take the form of a fiery explosion, but red's self-destruction is more a matter of recklessness and Alice seems more calculated than that to me, and not at all reckless. So I guess that makes it a black willingness to use any means to justify her ends or possibly even a deliberate act of cruelty.
I don't really agree, yes Alice is a little cruel to her dolls, but....their just dolls, who cares about them?
If she was cruel to other people, i would agree, but as far as i can tell her cruelty just extends to nonliving dolls.
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She's used curse dolls on people (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Alice) before, although I'd agree it comes less from a position of straight cruelty, and more from a position of mad science. Which is still a little black, but definitely more blue.
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Wait a second...I don't really agree, yes Alice is a little cruel to her dolls, but....their just dolls, who cares about them?
If she was cruel to other people, i would agree, but as far as i can tell her cruelty just extends to nonliving dolls.
Her Last Word is "Phantom of the Grand Guignol". At the very least that's a nasty macabre streak, but I don't think it's unreasonable to draw the conclusion that it says something about her attitude overall. Dolls have the form of people for a reason, they're meant to represent people in some way. Marisa and Patchouli seem to get along fine without acting out violence against people in their magic, so it's not like you need to do that. Alice is choosing to do it, and there's something sadistic about that for sure. That's not to say it makes her a terrible person or anything, as far as we know she doesn't really act out that way against living people, but it seems to be a small part of her character and a big part of her magic.
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Hey there, wanted to stop by and give my thoughts.
First off, I think there might be too much of a focus on Black being defined by acts of cruelty, sadism or willful malice. New Phyrexia I think does a good job about showing this with some of the abilities that the Praetors present, like the white praetor empowering some and degrading others, instead of empowering the whole group. Alot of what makes Black what it is, is simply about self-concern over others. Getting power is a part of that, and it can include using tactics like sacrificing and degrading others, but it doesn't mean said cruelty has to be enjoyed. Unless your someone like Rakdos (Black-Red), then it's about fun. There's even Sorin, whose been a bit of a hero at times in the MtG storyline and been black since the very beginning. Granted this is probably due to him being a vampire, but he does go White/Black in Innistrad, probably to represent him trying to restore order in his home plane.
I think adding Black to Alice would be about less of a concern about what her experiments have on others, but she doesn't quite have that desire for power that black usually goes for... the more I think about it, the less I'm having a hard time justifying Alice having that much black influence.
Yukari on the other hand, I think Black/White/Blue fits her really, really well. The Black/White is how she's maintaining order, but for her own gain over concern over others, and the Blue/White is more about how boundries require order, understanding and rules to create that separation that her power requires . Kinda ironic that a youkai would need structure, but I guess that's Yukari being that Youkai-like youkai for you. :/
Black also, while having death and weakening, doesn't mean that it's simply the realm of ghosts. Innistrad sets have spirits and ghost white colored, The Kamigawa block has
spirits of all colors. I think in this case, it might be better to look at characters like the Prismriver sisters more at who they are and what their powers do. Since Lunasa's music tends to bring down those who listen to her music to a calm attitude, but if too much can make them depressed, which would be black. Merlin's happy go lucky nature along with how her music tends to make people want to spontaneously dance is a bit red, and Lyrica's notes being illusionary along with her being a bit sly with her words makes her a bit more blue-ish. These were kinda hard to pull out, and Lunasa's is a reaaallllyy big stretch.
I could see Youmu being White/Green due to her guardian nature and being a gardener.
Chen maybe Red due to her childness and how he attacked the protags on a bit of an emotional impulse?
Faeries are kinda weird... they used to be green a long time ago, but are mostly Blue now, with some black. I think that's because of the way the faeries control the board most the time. Plus, most the mischief stuff that faeries love in Touhou happens in red, not blue. I think Cirno would be blue due to how she can freeze stuff, which could be like "Tap X permanents. They do not untap until thier owner's next untap step". Dai could be blue since she's smart for a fairy or even red due to the fact she like to play tricks sometimes. Yup, very weird.
Also, Tenshi's definitely White/Red in my book. But I think that's because I'm reading her being more acting on emotion rather than self-centeredness. Black would work too since she's spoiled enough, but my guess is what's motivating her for the second color.
Here's what I'm using as a guiade, btw: mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Color_Wheel (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Color_Wheel). Found it to be a bit better of a guide for the color stuff since it condenses lots of article for this topic.
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Yuyuko is black by ability, but not as blatant as Yukari in personality. Personally, I could see that Black and Blue hide inside Green and Red (So Yellow? That's kinda fit her everyday life). Reimu normally would have White/Red/Green, but in my opinion, she would be colorless when she's in Fantasy Nature, to showed her phantasm being.
Now for the Eientei team:
Eirin, for best describe, would have the color of the Sea, in many level: On the surface, she is the colour of the clear blue sea of White and Blue, showing her duty to protect the princess and unbound intelligent. Dive deep down though, you would meet an oppresive Black/Blue that would choke , squeeze and crush you alive, that's her merciless and arrogant side as a former Lunarian and tactican.
Kaguya... She's a bit hard to describe: She's Red, only in the sense that she have her childish side, and White, only in the sense that she's standing at the top of society. She's also Blue by default of the cunning Lunarian's royal. Mixing that together, and you kinda get a pink-ish pearl found only in rare place, like the Hourai Mountain or something.
Reisen: Again, like Yuyuko, she's Black in ability, but not Black in personality. In fact, the Black would have a really fake look into it, kinda like a computer's generated one, compare to the Black that give an insidious vibe you found in evil being. It's as if you could peel that open to reveal the subtle Blue and the subserviant White.
Tewi: Unlike Reisen, she would be Black Red and Blue in general, purely for her childish and mischieviously cunning side. Though, sometimes she's showed White to her kin and surbordinate, and Green by nature. If I have to describe, it's exactly like seeing a White Rabbit in the middle of the forest, only for it to lead you inside a twisted belly of a shark.
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My, I don't really know anything about Magic: The Gathering, but I do know this thread has the potential for basically endless iterations. What would be Touhou character X's statistics in Fallout's SPECIAL system? What type of Pokemon would they be? Which Ultima virtue would fit them best? Or which Dungeons and Dragons alignment? Where would they lie on the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzsprung?Russell_diagram)? Well, maybe not that last one, but still, the possibilities are limitless.
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First off, I think there might be too much of a focus on Black being defined by acts of cruelt, sadism or willful malice. New Phyrexia I think does a good job about showing this with some of the abilities that the Praetors present, like the white praetor empowering some and degrading others, instead of empowering the whole group. Alot of what makes Black what it is, is simply about self-concern over others. Getting power is a part of that, and it can include using tactics like sacrificing and degrading others, but it doesn't mean said cruelty has to be enjoyed. Unless your someone like Rakdos (Black-Red), then it's about fun. There's even Sorin, whose been a bit of a hero at times in the MtG storyline and been black since the very beginning. Granted this is probably due to him being a vampire, but he does go White/Black in Innistrad, probably to represent him trying to restore order in his home plane.
That's definitely fair, although Touhou doesn't really seem to be loaded with power-hungry characters. A lot of them are selfish, but I think it's more of a red selfishness. A lot of the black I'm seeing is mechanical honestly.
I think in this case, it might be better to look at characters like the Prismriver sisters more at who they are and what their powers do. Since Lunasa's music tends to bring down those who listen to her music to a calm attitude, but if too much can make them depressed, which would be black. Merlin's happy go lucky nature along with how her music tends to make people want to spontaneously dance is a bit red, and Lyrica's notes being illusionary along with her being a bit sly with her words makes her a bit more blue-ish. These were kinda hard to pull out, and Lunasa's is a reaaallllyy big stretch.
I'll be honest and say I have no idea what the differences between the Prismrivers are. They're probably my least favorite individual characters in the modern franchise even though their stage is great.
I could see Youmu being White/Green due to her guardian nature and being a gardener.
I really like the idea of Youmu having an enemy color pair to highlight the duality of her nature. White makes a lot of sense for her though.
Chen maybe Red due to her childness and how he attacked the protags on a bit of an emotional impulse?
Yeah, that's fair.
Here's what I'm using as a guiade, btw: mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Color_Wheel (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Color_Wheel). Found it to be a bit better of a guide for the color stuff since it condenses lots of article for this topic.
I tried to pick one that was as concise as possibly, since I figured anyone not already familiar with the system might be put off by something wordy. There's definitely a lot of nuance to be lost in trying to be concise about Magic color though.
My, I don't really know anything about Magic: The Gathering, but I do know this thread has the potential for basically endless iterations. What would be Touhou character X's statistics in Fallout's SPECIAL system? What type of Pokemon would they be? Which Ultima virtue would fit them best? Or which Dungeons and Dragons alignment? Where would they lie on the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertzsprung?Russell_diagram)? Well, maybe not that last one, but still, the possibilities are limitless.
Certainly true, but I kind of feel like Magic's colors have a robustness that a lot of other systems of classification don't necessarily.
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I can hardly see any white in Eirin, personally. The only people Eirin cares about are Lunarians. She's willing to murder rabbits (in the back story) and manipulate earthlings into extremely dangerous situations (in LoLK) without a second thought. She takes advantage anything "below" her to get what she wants, even when she doesn't have to. I see that as black, personally.
Yeah Sakuya is similar, but Sakuya only does it when she has to. Sakuya kills without a thought when the mistress requires it. Eirin fucks with any non-lunarians because she only sees non-lunarians as tools.
As for Kaguya, I don't know what she would be but I can't see her as red. She does what Eirin tells her and rarely ever acts on her own, from what I've seen. Eirin's always the mastermind, Kaguya's just a pretty face with strong power. Maybe pure blue, since she has her curiosity?
Granted I haven't read CiLR, so that might change my opinions on her.
Mokou would be red, I think. She more or less does what she wants and that's it. An argument could be made for black, but the only time she exhibits that kind of behavior is around Kaguya. Even around Eientei rabbits she's pretty chill.
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As for Kaguya, I don't know what she would be but I can't see her as red. She does what Eirin tells her and rarely ever acts on her own
This is incorrect, there are like, 2 chapters in Inaba And Inaba where she does things that have to do with going out side the house on her own. And its EIRIN who follows Kaguya's orders, not the other way around. But for the most part its really Eirin's fault that Kaguya doesn't go out much. Up until after the moon incident, she was very paranoid for her safety, and so disallowed her from leaving the house.
But your right about Eirin. She's probably one of the most "evil" characters in all of Touhou Project, she's not really different from Seiga or Sejia, TBH.
I mean, just look at her relationship with reisen! It's extremely abusive, it's way too much like an abusive relationship for it to NOT be intentional. She beats her for the littlest of things.
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Err, I didn't mean it so much that Kaguya follows Eirin's orders. It's more like Kaguya doesn't give many orders, Eirin is mostly acting independently for Kaguya's sake and Kaguya goes along with Eirin's plans because it's Eirin. For example- unless I'm misremembering, the IN incident was Eirin's plan for protecting Kaguya. Kaguya didn't decide for that to happen, but didn't go against it either. Then, as you said, Kaguya didn't leave the house for a long time because Eirin said she shouldn't (even though she wanted to).
Even though Kaguya technically has the last say, she's very passive and mostly lets Eirin run things. Because of that, saying she's red due to her childish nature seems wrong to me. She follows the rules too much. At least, that's what it seems like to me. I could be wrong.
Then again, she doesn't strictly adhere to the rules due to her morals or anything like that. She just goes along with what Eirin says. So calling her white doesn't seem right either.
I don't remember the Inaba comics too well hahaha I must have forgotten that part. Goes back to reread.
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Like I said, Kaguya is White only in the sense that she's a princess. It's kinda of like a naturally white hue. She isn't much white in anything else. Still enough white to earn enough respect of the Earth Rabbit though.
For me though, someone dedicated to protect someone else is a White. Eirin is no exception.
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There are dark sides to White like with any other color. White heals, protects, and has tradition and honor, but can also be oppressive, reactionary, and arrogant. One of the villains in Magic was a white human lord who, in attempting to bring peace to his plane, stole power and immortality from a giant hydra god with Yukari powers, then went maximum Hitler.
So to me, Eirin as white/blue makes tons of sense if you consider the evil side of white, and the Lunarians as a whole probably tend white as well.
Kaguya is confusing to me as well. The only thing I can say for sure is that she's got a bit of the artificer in her, since she casts from her Impossible Request items.
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Yeah, when you put it like that, Eirin probably don't have as much Black as I thought she would be.
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Now for the Former Hell resident:
Koishi would have been colorless, in my opinion. No matter how many Red she painted on herself, in the end she's just an empty shell of a closed up mind, and the Red wouldn't stick in. She does applied alot of Red though.
Satori would be... Well, she does have many animal, and want to live in peace, so Green would be appropriate. But that's also could be because she's cynical after listening to many minds, so she would be Black in a way.
Utsuho is definitively Red, since she's mostly a birdbrain, and prone to impulse. Though, she's Blue in her own expertise. So I guess the best guess would be the sky in a sunny day.
Parsee is truly the Green/Red-eyed jealoucy. Due to her behavior not only is chaotic, but actually came from her just doing what she must naturally do.
Others character i don't have enough opinion, so i'll leave it to you guy.
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Not too familiar with MtG but...
I think Junko would be Red/Blue with an effect that makes her Colourless (either at all times, or only when in play).
Moon rabbits would be Black or occasionally Red, but with weird mechanics (such as changing their colour, or requiring White mana). Though for the sake of game mechanics, if Lunarians are White then it would make sense for them to have White as a secondary colour, or just be Whites that use Black mana.
Reisen would be a Black/Blue shifting towards mono-Blue.
Aya is probably White/Green. Momiji is either White/Green or mono-Green, and Hatate is Red/Green.
For the Moriya Shrine, I'd say... Kanako is White/Blue, Suwako is Black/Green, and Sanae is White/Red? With Kanako having mostly generic mana costs to represent getting faith from many sources, and Suwako having some way to leech off that. Alternately, when Kanako is in play she lets Suwako treat all mana as being the type she needs and vice versa.
Kokoro is White/Blue/Black/Red/Green, but leaning mostly towards Blue. Contrasting with Koishi, who is Colourless.
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Subterranean Animism is like mostly red. Yuugi's red, Utsuho is red, Koishi is red, Parsee and Orin are probably black/red. Yamame is green or maybe black/green (you can bet she's a 2/4...), Satori is probably blue/green, and Sanae is white.
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That version of Junko, honestly, seems more like what I think about Koishi. My idea of Junko is pretty much straight red, since she's turned herself into pure rage with her ability. On the other hand, I think Koishi should be a red creature, with an ability that uses blue, and Devoid to make it colorless.
I don't think a rainbow Kokoro is right at all. If anything, she should be the native colorless since she's literally an artifact creature. But she could have a mechanic that set her into different states of color/power/toughness/ability to represent her different masks.
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That version of Junko, honestly, seems more like what I think about Koishi. My idea of Junko is pretty much straight red, since she's turned herself into pure rage with her ability. On the other hand, I think Koishi should be a red creature, with an ability that uses blue, and Devoid to make it colorless.
She's not really "rage" though, which should be obvious from her personality. She's a pure desire for vengeance, but that simply means she's been purified of the volatile emotions that would normally go along with that. She's the opposite of impulsive: she's willing to wait as long as it takes to carry out a complex plan, and when she encounters a critical set-back is able to shrug it off and tell herself "maybe next time." All with a smirk on her face.
I don't know enough about the colors to say what she'd actually be, but I know she's not Red.
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She's not really "rage" though, which should be obvious from her personality. She's a pure desire for vengeance, but that simply means she's been purified of the volatile emotions that would normally go along with that. She's the opposite of impulsive: she's willing to wait as long as it takes to carry out a complex plan, and when she encounters a critical set-back is able to shrug it off and tell herself "maybe next time." All with a smirk on her face.
I don't know enough about the colors to say what she'd actually be, but I know she's not Red.
The description of Junko you give seems pretty aligned with Black.
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That version of Junko, honestly, seems more like what I think about Koishi. My idea of Junko is pretty much straight red, since she's turned herself into pure rage with her ability. On the other hand, I think Koishi should be a red creature, with an ability that uses blue, and Devoid to make it colorless.
Koishi right now isn't turn to colorless, but more like she's colorless in the first place, with having the ability to turn red.
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Well the Devoid ability, as far as I understand it, takes cards that you use colored mana on, and says specifically, "this card is colorless". It's actually more powerful than just making her colorless, because with Devoid you can't set her to a color at all with other spells. I think it works great for Koishi, since she is incredibly chaotic and impulse driven, but has none of the emotion or thought that usually accompanies it. The blue is just mechanical, really, for her cloaking and mind effects.
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Hmm... missed a few things over the last day or two. Some cool ideas, lemme try at em. :)
Like Kaguya being white and Eirin being white/blue.
I think moon rabbits are best white and some blue. The purity part is the main driver, and the whole worry about impurity could be interpreted by white's nastier side of "Us, not them". Kind funny talking about this since WotC kinda touched upon this race with their moon folk, but they were blue in the sets they showed up in. Probably because of storyline differences.
I'll have to touch upon other characters later, but thinking about Koishi amused me alot when I came to my conclusion: Red/Blue. She kinda does what both aspire to do, living without the rules of law and also being about to affect her world greatly with her power. The funny thing is she manages to do this without fighting against power nor doing it directly unlike how Red would do it, and without any kind of conscious thought or through great learning like what Blue would do, just simply through her subconscious whims. It's really hilarious and I could see her triggering someone like Jace or Chandra quite easily. It's kinda funny to see a Red/Blue combo that isn't like Marisa, that learn through chaotic kind of learning, but instead greatly affecting the world around her passively just through gut instinct.
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Hmm... missed a few things over the last day or two. Some cool ideas, lemme try at em. :)
Like Kaguya being white and Eirin being white/blue.
I think moon rabbits are best white and some blue. The purity part is the main driver, and the whole worry about impurity could be interpreted by white's nastier side of "Us, not them". Kind funny talking about this since WotC kinda touched upon this race with their moon folk, but they were blue in the sets they showed up in. Probably because of storyline differences.
I think the biggest precedent for the Lunarians being white-aligned is Elesh Norn's faction since they were pretty obsessed with purity/impurity in that weird Phyrexian way.
I'm not sure how you'd classify Reisen, though.
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I'm inclined to want to call Reisen black or maybe black/blue just because of her power. She's probably a Hypnotic Specter, right?
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Reisen in my eyes is just outright Blue. She uses illusion bullets, can manipulate waves to alter the perceptions of people or even their attitudes. She even tries to change her personality based on the situation she's in. That's all pretty well situated in Blue without need for mixing colors.
I forgot to mention, I can see Koishi having Shroud and having an ability that'd be like 2(Blue): "Target permanent gains Shroud until end of turn."
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I can see Marisa being blue because she's a whizzard, but she definitely has some red in there too, especially when contrasted with Alice.
There's irony in the rivalry between Alice and Marisa: Alice likes making cunning, clever plans and executing them efficiently with her magic, whereas Marisa likes to overwhelm her enemies with power -- but to Marisa, the intensive study involved in learning such powerful magic is clever enough already. Essentially, Marisa achieves and exhibits power (red) via knowledge (blue).
Marisa's kleptomania also makes her more red, too.
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I think the fundamental conflict between Reimu and Marisa (Reimu's talent versus Marisa's hard work) could not be more emblematic of the blue/green nature versus nurture conflict. They pretty much have to be partly green and blue respectively because they fit the archetypes so cleanly.
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If the Dragon God ever appear in person, what would she (standard Touhou assumption) be? Technically, she would be pink first, since she's the creator and all, but what do you think about the next color?
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Technically, she would be pink first, since she's the creator and all,
Wait what?
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According to the Touhou canon. The Dragon God is the one who create the five phase (Metal, Wood, Water, Fire, Earth), before being the one that destroy and create Gensokyo in it entirety. That's why I think she is pink.
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Wait what?
I think andy's thinking Red/White... unless he's mentioned the Pink in unhinged. I think that's a tricky one because we don't really have much on Dragons in general, personally I'd expect something like Blue/White/Green.
Going to jump around alittle doing whole casts, since I touched on Koishi, might start there
Kisume Green? (this one's really a wild card to me)
Yamame's Black, pretty much she deals in diseases and that's one of Black's bread and butter tactics.
Parsee Feels like a Black character more due to her jealousy and she sometimes masks it. Otherwise I'd tag her as Red.
Yuugi Green Her natural strength plus her love for stronger people to fight with and not liking weaklings is pretty much what a green person would be like.
Satori Blue/Black Her mindreading abilities is pretty much a Blue characteristic, meanwhile I think her fighting style is pretty much seen in a few magic sorcery cards, using a person's traumas against them. Kinda temped to add Red due to her trying to keep to herself, but her preferring to stick with pets because her mindreading isn't a problem for them and the fact that a blue/black person might stay to themselves might make this unnessacry.
Orin Black/Red Her cheerful informal nature is pretty much like a Red person's, while her ability involving reanimating corpses would be pretty much Black. Kinda like how Koishi's brand of Red/Blue ins't very much like the norm, I like how Orin's not much like the Rakdos mentality of Red/Black where it's destruction at your own whim for the fun of it.
Okuu Red Her ability to spawn suns is pretty Red and she's pretty spontaneous and random, which can be Red-ish. I sorta want to splash Black for her wanting world domination, but I think that might be a stretch because it seems like she did it under an idea that's what she should do with her power rather than having a desire for a position of power.
Koishi Red/Blue, already covered this one. :)
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^Yeah, that Pink that's could turn into other color. That's what i mean
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I think andy's thinking Red/White... unless he's mentioned the Pink in unhinged. I think that's a tricky one because we don't really have much on Dragons in general, personally I'd expect something like Blue/White/Green.
Going to jump around alittle doing whole casts, since I touched on Koishi, might start there
Kisume Green? (this one's really a wild card to me)
Yamame's Black, pretty much she deals in diseases and that's one of Black's bread and butter tactics.
Parsee Feels like a Black character more due to her jealousy and she sometimes masks it. Otherwise I'd tag her as Red.
Yuugi Green Her natural strength plus her love for stronger people to fight with and not liking weaklings is pretty much what a green person would be like.
Satori Blue/Black Her mindreading abilities is pretty much a Blue characteristic, meanwhile I think her fighting style is pretty much seen in a few magic sorcery cards, using a person's traumas against them. Kinda temped to add Red due to her trying to keep to herself, but her preferring to stick with pets because her mindreading isn't a problem for them and the fact that a blue/black person might stay to themselves might make this unnessacry.
Orin Black/Red Her cheerful informal nature is pretty much like a Red person's, while her ability involving reanimating corpses would be pretty much Black. Kinda like how Koishi's brand of Red/Blue ins't very much like the norm, I like how Orin's not much like the Rakdos mentality of Red/Black where it's destruction at your own whim for the fun of it.
Okuu Red Her ability to spawn suns is pretty Red and she's pretty spontaneous and random, which can be Red-ish. I sorta want to splash Black for her wanting world domination, but I think that might be a stretch because it seems like she did it under an idea that's what she should do with her power rather than having a desire for a position of power.
Koishi Red/Blue, already covered this one. :)
Kisume I want to imagine as green since coming out of nowhere and bonking you seems like the embodiment of flash.
I can see Yamame in Green/Black since disease kind of overlaps across both of those (see: Infect mechanic and Pharika in Theros) plus spiders are pretty green/black affiliated.
Yuugi's probably red-green? The desire to fight seems pretty red-aligned in my mind.
Satori... this is a tricky one. Telepathy and copying other people's distinctly blue, but her bonding with pets in the underground seems pretty connected to white or green?
I can agree with the assessments of Orin and Utsuho, and while Red/Blue for Koishi works I can also see a case for her in Red/Black.
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Kisume I want to imagine as green since coming out of nowhere and bonking you seems like the embodiment of flash.
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I guess that could also be red with something like Haste. It's just kinda odd since we don't have much to work with that I can see.
I can see Yamame in Green/Black since disease kind of overlaps across both of those (see: Infect mechanic and Pharika in Theros) plus spiders are pretty green/black affiliated.
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I was thinking Golgari when I read that myself. Infect seemed like that was more Phyrexia rather than color specific. Only reason why I didn't quite think Green works that well with Kisume is pretty much simply disease and doesn't involve any kind of growth that the Green would provide.
Yuugi's probably red-green? The desire to fight seems pretty red-aligned in my mind.
Perhaps, but I'm familiar with quite a few mono-Green cards that force a creature to fight another, that helps what fueled my idea. I think red might work if she was very fighty, kinda like starting fights all all over the place. She seems to just focus on strength kinda like Green's preference for survival of the fittest, rather than adding red which I could see someone who just wanted to brawl anyone at a whim.
Satori... this is a tricky one. Telepathy and copying other people's distinctly blue, but her bonding with pets in the underground seems pretty connected to white or green?
I can see that being Green myself. Only reason why I went the route I did was I think her telepathy is the reason for her sticking with animals and not about having some sort of connection with nature as much as much as its using her Blue characteristics to speak with those who don't fear her. Plus, I'm not sure that Green would prefer keeping animals as pets as much as allowing them to live free. Satori can be a tricky one though, but not as bad as Kisume was. ^^:
After looking at green more closely, kinda want to say I like Kaguya having Green with her White due to her not trying to influence things too much, and simply allowing Eirin to make decisions. Have to admit, I didn't have as much of an understanding of Green as I do now. Green barely edges out Black in the least often used color when it comes to me, although I can see appeal in Green's play style.
I can agree with the assessments of Orin and Utsuho, and while Red/Blue for Koishi works I can also see a case for her in Red/Black.
I've seen a few posts about her using Black, and I'm curious how the Black could manifest in her abilities or character.
Requesting a moderator fix on this post, I have no idea why the tags aren't working right.
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This is turning out to be a much more interesting discussion than would result from a prompt about D&D alignments.
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Now let switch to Buddhism side:
Hijiri is easy: Black/White. She's a monk, and have an idea to unified Youkai and Human to an understanding. Buuuut she's also use magic for her own gain, and being involved with the Youkai also mean she knew very well the dark side of the world. The Black isn't a dominant color though, ans instead is kinda like a shadow of a halo.
Nue is Black, obviously in ability and personality. Red if you think about typical youkai hijink. Being in their side probably made her, like other, to have a clear and pure color though, signifying their progress of enlightement (kinda ironic for being unknown as a base). Also probably going to be dyed white by Hijiri too.
Narzin is Blue, for being the "Tiny, Tiny clever commander". A bit of a sub-serviant White for Shou, but we all know who's in charge here, so I would said that color is a bit fake.
Shou would be... I don't know. I'll let you guy decided it.
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Yeah, Shou is not easy to pin down. In part because, as far as I know, her characterization isn't that well-explained. She has lightning powers, doesn't she? That's a bit red mechanically, her divinity/status as an object of worship is white, and her ability to attract wealth miiight be blue.
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This is turning out to be a much more interesting discussion than would result from a prompt about D&D alignments.
I think that's because each color has philosophies that overlap rather than how much you follow the rules and how much of a jerk you are.
I think Hijiri being White/Black makes some sense, with her being a Youkai and a Monk, and kindness towards the "enemy" persay. Kinda want to say mono-White simply because she's simply extending her reach and beliefs towards others, but the idea that she's reaching out towards those who are the enemy kinda looks like a white knight trying to support Dominaria and Phyrexia at the same time... kinda on the fence with this.
I think Shou might be best White/Blue. Kinda want to add blue since she's really spawned from imaginations of tigers, and White due to her typical personality and her being an avatar of Bishamonten. I guess maybe splash red based on situations due to her tendency to fly into a rage every once in a while and also go drinking sometimes despite her not supposed to be.
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Shou I think is solidly White/Red. Bishamonten is the god of war and warriors, as well as one who fights evil. The god of War fits red, and the punisher of evil fits white.
Any of the lunarians should be primary white. Obsession with purity and dogmatic adherence to such structure is one of the primary negatives of white. In fact, I'd argue that, absent of any personality quirks, Lunarians should be Mono-white (a la Toyohime and Yorihime). The exception to the rule I think is Kaguya. Kaguya I think is solidly black in flavor. She gave up the purity of the moon for eternal life, and her primary motivation for doing things is for entertainment. She obviously cares about things, but really couldn't give a rats ass about those she doesn't care about, like her suitors in the past.
Eirin is another exception though less so. She cares enough about the moon and it's existence to be mostly white, but she's too much of a scientist to let dogmatic notions of purity to become an obstacle to her research. I'd put her secondary color at blue, mostly because she seems to research for its own sake rather than for any notion of increasing her own power.
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Maybe it's because Alice is (my favorite character and) the one character I've probably spent the most time thinking about, consciously or not, she seems particularly nuanced even among the touhou characters to me.
You brushed on it, but to put it tersely, I'd say the one driving factor that underpins Alice's whole character is obsession. On one side, a sort of creative obsession towards her craft, like you said. Gathering knowledge isn't so much the end goal so much as it is simply a means to further sharpen her own skills towards her art - making dolls. All this is fairly easily visible but the other half of her that gives her character a lot of conflict and depth is something that often comes hand-in-hand with obsession - perfection and perfectionism. I don't think you can really be an obsessed creative type without always striving higher, for more mastery, for more knowledge, for greater perfection. And with this perfection comes a sort of inevitable disappointment that takes its form as the melancholic side of her character. In what I think might even be a subconscious decision for her, she imposes self-restrictions on herself. In a strange way, it ends up being that she plays by her own rules and never crosses any lines she draws for herself. This can be seen in how the canon material says she never displays her true strength and what not, something we all know and heard a million times. It seems to me to be a kind of subconscious protection-ish mechanism to suppress potential disappointments. The self-imposed restrictions can be used as excuses to herself to avoid disappointments. I think she's weirdly very emotional this way, very melancholic, in a way that is very contrary to what I'm seeing blue as defining that makes me struggle to keep her categorized here, even if it is the most appropriate surface-wise.
As for the cruelty streak you mentioned, I think it's more of a display of her assertion as a creator. It strikes me as a sort of particularity, an obsession if you will, that she shows that only she has the sole right to destroy her own works -- and not anyone else -- as their creator. Seen this way, it can almost be a sort of show of affection, a weird display or form of love, for her creations to be the one to destroy them, by her own hands, just as she was the one who created them. It was a possibility that struck me after this one time when I woke up in the middle of the night, left the dorm, and built a giant snow moai statue out in the middle of the school campus after a very rare snowy day. Then the next night I woke up again midnight to go knock it down before someone else or the warming weather did. It might almost be contrary with her popular depiction as motherly (a mother-alice), and though I certainly do see shades of that in her character, I think she at times more strongly shows a creatorly romantic notion (a creator-alice). And it's these weird sort of romantic sentimentalities that she shows that make me hesitant to keep her true blue, but at the same time I don't know what color this would be. Neither red nor black nor white seem to show this weird perfectionist romantic sentimentality as far as I'm reading up.
Well at least, that's how I understand and relate to alice's character, and a couple of the reasons why she's my favorite. (which is to say, I'm not asserting that this is how she is, obviously)
e: I forgot, but her destroying her own dolls that she must have put lots of effort into can perhaps be another display of her own inner conflict, a venting of the stress, creative or otherwise, that comes from her passionate obsession and perfectionism. Again, conflicted melancholy, but it doesn't really seem that black.
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Pursuit of perfection is about as blue as blue can be. I don't think there's any question that she's blue. But even with your description there I can't shake the idea that there's some black in her.
In a mechanical sense, one of Alice's biggest tricks is definitely blowing up her dolls. Dolls are artifacts, and blue's domain over artifacts probably extends to doing things that it shouldn't normally be doing, like sacrificing. So by that logic she may be mono-blue.
However, I'm STRONGLY reminded of this card (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175012) which I had previously forgotten about by your description, and it is indeed black (and blue, but mainly black). I think melancholy definitely has a place in black. Had I remembered that card earlier I would have brought it up before because I think it's all kinds of related.
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The way you describe Alice makes her sound a lot like Urza, actually. Incredily talented artificer and spellcrafter, seemingly detached and clinical, but if you merely scratch the surface, there's an all consuming monomania that drives, through every emotion. For him, it was Phyrexia, for her, it would be the creation of true AI. And yeah, he was straight blue.
Sacrificing artifacts is something in multiple colors, but sacrificing them for damage, well, that's a red spell. Several red spells, in fact.
Also I keep reiterating it, but the one time Alice did go all out, Yuuka happened. That, in itself, would be a heck of a discouragement from doing it again.
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I think that's because each color has philosophies that overlap rather than how much you follow the rules and how much of a jerk you are.
The thing I like about the MTG color wheel is how each color shares very clear similarities with the two adjacent to it and very clear differences with the two opposite it.
Red rests between the feral untamability of Green and the ruthless cruelty of Black, while standing opposite to the strict order of white and the cunning subtlety of Blue.
Green rests between the wild ferocity of Red and the charitable community of White, while standing opposite to the highly literate esotericism of Blue and the sickly self-destructiveness of Black.
White rests between the life-nurturing properties of Green and the detached deliberation of Blue, while standing opposite to the foul degeneracy and prideful individualism of Black and the unruly chaos of Red.
Blue rests between the calm sophistication of White and the ethically dubious methods of Black, while standing opposite the of uncontrolled passion of Red and the base instinct of Green.
Black rests between the cold manipulation of Blue and the defiant freedom of Red, while standing opposite to the strict rules and spiritual cleanliness of White and the pristine healthiness of Green.
Of course, that's all an oversimplification, but some interesting patterns are already starting to show up.