Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Tengukami on August 22, 2015, 11:17:46 pm

Title: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on August 22, 2015, 11:17:46 pm
Old thread here. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16752.0.html)

Here you can ask your random, one-off questions about different aspects of Touhou. Before asking your question, please consult the Touhou wiki (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki) to make sure your question cannot be answered through some easily verifiable means.

When answering, please try to cite canon to the best of your ability, and understand the difference between speculation/headcanon/fanon and stuff that is actual canon.

Fire when ready!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: The Dratini Farmer on August 23, 2015, 08:32:28 pm
I've got a question about Sumireko.

I've read on the wiki that she has the power to manipulate psychic powers and some of her spell cards involve psychokinesis. So I was wondering, is there a chance that she could further evolve her powers? I was wanting to know if she could get to the level of, say, Starkiller from The Force Unleashed. I know that it might be a large stretch, but the seeds are there with her powers now. And I would also like to know if there is a possibility of her evolving other powers as well.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on August 23, 2015, 11:27:00 pm
So regarding LoLK's extra stage, what does Doremy mean exactly by saying things to the Heroine such as "You wouldn't be seeing such a Lunatic Dream now"?

Admitedly, I don't understand much of what any of this dream world talk is about. 
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on August 23, 2015, 11:35:00 pm
Just curious, which boss theme is the longest final boos theme? Junko's or Eikishiki's?
And speaking of which, Rikako has the longest music in Touhou, right?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on August 23, 2015, 11:49:51 pm
Just curious, which boss theme is the longest final boos theme? Junko's or Eikishiki's?
And speaking of which, Rikako has the longest music in Touhou, right?
Rikako has the longest theme, at roughly 11:20 at 2 loops. Junko has the longest final boss theme at roughly 9:30 with 2 loops. Eiki is not 2nd place, that actually goes to Kokoro at roughly 8:45 with 2 loops. Eiki has roughly 8:30 with 2 loops.

I say roughly because my copies of the themes have fadeouts, and I'm not about to time each one myself.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on August 24, 2015, 12:01:09 am
Rikako has the longest theme, at roughly 11:20 at 2 loops. Junko has the longest final boss theme at roughly 9:30 with 2 loops. Eiki is not 2nd place, that actually goes to Kokoro at roughly 8:45 with 2 loops. Eiki has roughly 8:30 with 2 loops.

I say roughly because my copies of the themes have fadeouts, and I'm not about to time each one myself.

Thanks for answering, didn't realize Kokoro's theme is that long.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 24, 2015, 03:11:17 am
So regarding LoLK's extra stage, what does Doremy mean exactly by saying things to the Heroine such as "You wouldn't be seeing such a Lunatic Dream now"?

Admitedly, I don't understand much of what any of this dream world talk is about.
If Doremy hadn't forwarded you to the Lunar Capital and instead made you fall into a dream back in Stage 3, you wouldn't be in the Extra Stage in another crazy dream where things try to beat you up.

I've read on the wiki that she has the power to manipulate psychic powers and some of her spell cards involve psychokinesis. So I was wondering, is there a chance that she could further evolve her powers? I was wanting to know if she could get to the level of, say, Starkiller from The Force Unleashed. I know that it might be a large stretch, but the seeds are there with her powers now. And I would also like to know if there is a possibility of her evolving other powers as well.
The thing with Sumireko that she's ultra chuunibyou and it's hard to even say if her powers are "real" in the sense of also existing for the Outside World. Even in the Outside World where you fight her, you're still fighting in a context where magic is considered real. But as far as Touhou goes, there's no real reason that her powers couldn't evolve. Main caution is just that most characters have their abilities increase pretty slowly -- the only one so far whose powers spontaneously improve is Maribel, or perhaps Kosuzu.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on August 24, 2015, 08:58:42 am
What's with some people thinking that Shinki comes from hell?  Now some are associating her with Hecatia because of this.  I did read in the previous misc. questions and answers thread that Makai used to be translated as "hell" or something like that, but is there another reason to this?  I saw this on the Wiki:

"Due to her angelic and demonic elements, Shinki is sometimes considered to be a fallen angel, in particular an analogue to Lucifer or Satan (who was described as bright and beautiful, matching Shinki's name). Pandæmonium, the capital of Makai, was the capital of Hell in Paradise Lost."

Has to do with that?

Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on August 25, 2015, 04:02:11 am
I don't know if this has been asked before, but Hisoutensoku's arrangement of Voile, the Magic Library is almost quite literally just IaMP's version with a couple instrument swaps. Has it ever been said why this is the case? It just felt a little jarring, is all.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on August 25, 2015, 04:30:05 am
What's with some people thinking that Shinki comes from hell?  Now some are associating her with Hecatia because of this.  I did read in the previous misc. questions and answers thread that Makai used to be translated as "hell" or something like that, but is there another reason to this?  I saw this on the Wiki:

"Due to her angelic and demonic elements, Shinki is sometimes considered to be a fallen angel, in particular an analogue to Lucifer or Satan (who was described as bright and beautiful, matching Shinki's name). Pandæmonium, the capital of Makai, was the capital of Hell in Paradise Lost."

Has to do with that?

Thanks in advance!

Makai is based on the Christian Hell with Pandaemonium and Shinki being Lucifer like you said, as well as the Lake of Ice (which is from Dante's Inferno).

Basically Makai is the Christian Hell and "Hell" is Buddhist Hell. I guess that's why? In HRtP Makai was mistranslated as Heaven, but I've never heard it called Hell until LoLK's release.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Abraham Lincoln on August 25, 2015, 02:08:11 pm
Has ZUN ever said anything about Mamoru Samuragochi?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Nolegs the Cat on August 25, 2015, 11:44:00 pm
If Reimu can float away from reality, does this mean she can float towards other realities?
Could she use it for teleportation? 'Floating' towards abstract concepts and becoming a more personalized form of boundary manipulation? When floating 'away from reality', can she fly through physical objects?
Sounds simple on paper but when you think about it, Reimu's power is actually really vague - she can float away from reality, so is that neccesarily ALL it can do?

Also wasn't it explicitely stated somewhere Sakuya ISN'T a vampire?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 26, 2015, 05:19:08 am
"If Reimu can float away from reality, does this mean she can float towards other realities?"
No. Being able to "float away from reality" isn't a formal statement itself, it's just a description of what she does when using Fantasy Nature. "From reality" isn't even explicitly said in the original text, it just says "floats away from everything and becomes invincible".

"Could she use it for teleportation?"
She already does pseudo-teleportation by use of magical barriers.

"'Floating' towards abstract concepts and becoming a more personalized form of boundary manipulation?"
There's no evidence to suggest this is possible. "Floating away from everything" is already pretty out-there.

"When floating 'away from reality', can she fly through physical objects?"
Well yes, that's the whole point.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on August 26, 2015, 08:09:30 am
Also wasn't it explicitely stated somewhere Sakuya ISN'T a vampire?

Well, she outright says she's a mortal human in IN Extra.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on August 26, 2015, 09:52:53 am
About Chang'e, was it ever confirmed that she actually became fully immortal? Could it be that she only toke the elixir once or twice, becoming "only" ageless and immune to illness?

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Quwanti on August 26, 2015, 03:57:55 pm
http://blog.livedoor.jp/tohomemory/archives/45220006.html

I'm curious what is the reason for this and what it is about. Is Kosuzu advertising for something?

--

Also, I've read a few times that Forbidden Scrollery is fairly popular. Are there any numbers or estimates for that? (like the how many tankebons were sold or something)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Camilo113 on August 26, 2015, 10:41:55 pm
Has ZUN ever said anything about Mamoru Samuragochi?

No. I don't think he even cares.


http://blog.livedoor.jp/tohomemory/archives/45220006.html

I'm curious what is the reason for this and what it is about. Is Kosuzu advertising for something?

--

Also, I've read a few times that Forbidden Scrollery is fairly popular. Are there any numbers or estimates for that? (like the how many tankebons were sold or something)

I remember seen no too long ago (like 2 weeks ago) a Tankobon Sales List and it surprised me to see FS was so high. There were like 50 mangas in the list and FS was between 15 or 25 iirc; but I didn't save the image so I don't have any proof or an estimates of number. Sorry.
It was the Volume 4 by the way.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on August 27, 2015, 02:21:43 pm
Is it safe to assume that the power stone capable of materializing the urban legends, created by Sagume, is the lunar occult ball? I wanted to add it to the wiki but if we're not sure i won't bother.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 28, 2015, 02:39:50 am
The Power Stones are just Occult Balls. Sumireko called them Power Stones since they're found in Power Spots in the Outside World.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on August 28, 2015, 05:26:11 am
Also, all the Power Stones are capable of materializing urban legends: that's a game mechanic in ULiL.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on August 28, 2015, 05:27:55 am
What are the rules for manga spoilering in this forum? I don't really see a lot of manga discussion here so I don't know what's the policy.
I understand that there are only a few manga translator, but I mean there are many manga contents that are discussable.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 28, 2015, 05:36:41 am
I probably think about marking spoilers for about a month or so, I guess? But often times there are large discussions around a new chapter's contents (cough FS 25) so as far as I can tell it's case-by-case.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on August 28, 2015, 06:06:17 am
large discussions around a new chapter's contents (cough FS 25)
Do you mean in 4chan? Because that's the only place where I saw a huge discussion(read: bitching at Reimu) about FS 25 (aka my first time entering that fu*ked up website)
But I don't see that much FS 25 stuff in both MotK and reddit
Quote
often times there are large discussions
Probably because I am new, but FS 25 is the only "large" manga discussion I have known in English community...
I mean... Rinnosuke in FS? no one gives a fu*k..Satori and Rin in WaHH? I don't remember anyone has mentioned that yet..
Sumireko in WaHH with possible connection to ULiL and LoLK and explanation of dream? Oh yeah, only a few comments on Sumireko's school seat..

Or are there other places for such discussion?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 28, 2015, 06:52:49 am
I'm probably just biased because I reply to everyone
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on August 28, 2015, 12:57:15 pm
Also, all the Power Stones are capable of materializing urban legends: that's a game mechanic in ULiL.
Well, Sagume's profile seems to indicate that only the one she made is capable of materializing false rumors, since she made it specifically for that purpose.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on August 28, 2015, 01:20:16 pm
IIRC the Power Stones weren't supposed to do that, and only gained that property because of Sagume's interference.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: gilde on September 01, 2015, 08:26:12 pm
Is it, like, common knowledge that civilian moon rabbits are literally regular, modern-looking people but with goofy rabbit ears (http://i7.mangareader.net/touhou-bougetsushou-silent-sinner-in-blue/7/touhou-bougetsushou-silent-sinner-in-blue-1723514.jpg)?? Or am I just really, really late to the party here

edit: From the way people talked about them I assumed they were all like the Watatsukis' soldiers and were just, homogeneous like the Earth rabbits? But there's mom rabbits and grandpa rabbits and boy rabbits (?!) and they're literally just Us But Rabbit Ears, some of them are wearing t-shirts, im screaming
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on September 07, 2015, 01:22:11 am
Would native gods be considered impure by lunarians? What about divine spirits?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on September 07, 2015, 02:32:27 am
Native gods seem to be made of impurity, or something like that. Suwako says that drinking the elixir in LoLK would have been a one-hit kill for her because it removes impurity from the drinker. And it leaves Sanae as a "clean human".

I would imagine divine spirits would be fine though, for at the very least the same reason that ghosts are.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on September 07, 2015, 09:19:34 pm
Does anything in canon say who does the cooking in Eientei?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on September 08, 2015, 02:18:33 am
The closest is probably the rabbits making dango in CiLR. I doubt they make all the meals though, since it was a special occasion.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on September 09, 2015, 05:14:47 am
Can someone read this (https://twitter.com/N_write/status/641266135015358464?s=09) and this (https://twitter.com/N_write/status/641266905588740096?s=09) and tell me if it's how Sagume's ability actually works? I can't seem to wrap my head around it and I haven't read any of her dialogue or bio to know if it's true or not. (It's in Japanese)
Seems a lot more complicated than 'things become opposite'

edit: read bio, explains more, seems like a good way of explaining things?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on September 09, 2015, 05:58:07 am
if it's how Sagume's ability actually works? I can't seem to wrap my head around it and I haven't read any of her dialogue or bio to know if it's true or not. (It's in Japanese)
Seems a lot more complicated than 'things become opposite'

I can't read Japanese... but based on the picture, I think it's a good explanation...
But yes, Kishin's ability is more complicated than it seems. It's definitely more than just "things going opposite"

My own interpretation, in the simplest way, is:
For example, Reimu is having a danmaku battle with Marisa, and now Reimu is DEFINITELY (WITH 100%) going to beat Marisa (just an example, didn't mean to discuss something starts with p- )
And all of a sudden, Kishin says something about this battle (something = ANYTHING, whether it's "Marisa is going to win" or "Reimu is going to win", the result will be the same), and then the outcome of this fight goes to opposite
The orginal result is: Reimu won (to make thing easier, let's say 100% winning chance)
After Kishin used her ability, the result becomes opposite, which is now: Marisa won (100% chance)
And then Marisa won

But I can not explain the following:
1. How is this related to her "plan" in LoLK? (I kind of have some ideas, but I can't make those ideas straight)
2. Does thinking or writing make her use her ability?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on September 09, 2015, 06:14:10 am
(@kevin: I don't think that's an appropriate scenario to talk about in being 100% certain of something, since even if you assume a normal outcome would be 100% Reimu winning, if Sagume's ability changes that, literally anything else could happen as long as it isn't Reimu winning. Also, your answer to #2 is "no and probably no").

This artist gave a very good explanation, although again it's in Japanese.
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=52301293
(also the artist's other work is very nsfw)

It's also something I expect people will have tons of trouble with now and into the future, since it's been confused ever since the game came out. People seem to think that the reverse of her words must come true, which is not the case.

Yes, I think the explanation you link to explains her ability quite well. I'll summarize it for other people.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on September 09, 2015, 06:25:00 am
I don't think that's an appropriate scenario to talk about in being 100% certain of something, since even if you assume a normal outcome would be 100% Reimu winning, if Sagume's ability changes that, literally anything else could happen as long as it isn't Reimu winning.
Oh yeah....you are right.
Is it better if I added "assume there are only two possible outcomes: Reimu won or Marisa won" ?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on September 09, 2015, 07:33:12 am
So let's say that Sagume verbally denies commiting a crime which the evidence proves that she is indeed innocent, would she just get convicted regardless of the evidence while the evidence itself remains unchanged?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on September 09, 2015, 07:43:55 am
Oh ok I think I finally get it. Whenever Sagume mentions any ongoing event at all, regardless of her stance on it, it's the event that will twist to manifest a negation of its original untampered outcome. In any way shape or form. Agh that's complex to think about.

So let's say that Sagume denies commiting a crime which the evidence proves that she is indeed innocent, would she just get convicted regardless of the evidence while the evidence itself remains unchanged?
Suppose the original untampered outcome of this event is that the court would have found her innocent (ie: where she says nothing and doesn't use her ability at all) . If she at all mentions anything about this process, whether "I hope I'm found innocent" or "the final verdict will be 'guilty'", etc, then the original outcome will be be twisted to become its opposite, she will be found guilty. And I think, correct me, depending on what aspect of this process she mentions, it might allow for even greater possibilities of any event that would negate the court finding her innocent. Like the court spontaneously combusting, or Sagume just suddenly dropping dead.

Edit: I forgot to answer the original question, yes the evidence will not change at all. She can't change or rewrite the present reality, she can only effect a twist of the future into the opposite of its original outcome.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on September 09, 2015, 08:20:40 am
To note, "I hope I'm found innocent" or "the final verdict will be 'guilty'" are both phrases that would probably activate her power, but I think the original phrasing of "I did not commit the crime" would not.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on September 09, 2015, 08:50:59 am
The closest is probably the rabbits making dango in CiLR. I doubt they make all the meals though, since it was a special occasion.
So there's no real answer? As i excepted. My headcanon:
Eirin sometimes does the cooking, but she is busy most of the time, so Reisen usually does the cooking, with or without the help of the rabbits, but when shes not available just the rabbits do it.
Ironically, Kaguya is actually the best at cooking in Eientei, but she never cooks due to laziness.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Biakmon on September 09, 2015, 12:34:14 pm
Hecatia's ability allows her to exist on Earth, the Moon, and the Spirit World all at once.

Does that mean there one Hecatia on Earth, one on the Moon and one in the Spirit world which live simultaneously?
Meaning that there may be 3 different Hecatia which can live at any given times, correct?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Kaizaki on September 09, 2015, 12:51:01 pm
Ironically, Kaguya is actually the best at cooking in Eientei, but she never cooks due to laziness.
She's actually pretty terrible at it, according to Inaba & Inaba, making it somewhat canon (I blame it on her upbringing).

I know it's a headcanon, but it's a fun thing to point out.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on September 09, 2015, 01:02:32 pm
Sagume properly introduces herself and even explain how her ability works. Even by doing so, it's not like her name became something other than Sagume nor did her ability change. I guess her ability doesn't affect some facts. Her ability will make sure that if there are a lot of possibilities for something, the one that Sagume verbally picked wouldn't happen, and the opposite will be more likely ; and if there were no other possibilities, nothing would happen. If she said that a cat that just passed by was a cat, it won't magically transform into a dog. Her ability seems to make all the coincidences happens in order to prove her wrong and make the opposite of the thing she said happen. It's a bit weird since she'll have to accurately know what'll happen in the future in order to use her ability very well... even if she guessed wrong, I guess her ability wouldn't overwrite the chance of unrelated things to happen
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on September 09, 2015, 02:28:27 pm
uhh you kind of just described the exact misinterpretation of her ability that we're talking about
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on September 10, 2015, 04:41:25 am
She's actually pretty terrible at it, according to Inaba & Inaba, making it somewhat canon (I blame it on her upbringing).
Oh, well thanks for pointing that out for me. I guess the best cook there is probably Eirin, because she's the brain of the moon and all that jazz, but enough of my stupid headcanon. Back to the questions and answers!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Biakmon on September 11, 2015, 12:10:49 am
Hecatia's ability allows her to exist on Earth, the Moon, and the Spirit World all at once.

- Does that mean there is one Hecatia on Earth, one on the Moon and one in the Spirit world which can live simultaneously?

- Which touhou character(s) has been shown to have both 'animal' ear with 'human' ear apart from Orin (Rin Kaenbyou)?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on September 11, 2015, 03:39:50 am
I have some questions about Touhoucon, but I really have no idea where to ask so I will put this right here.
I apologize is this is not a right place to ask.

I have never been to Touhoucon before, is this something similar to Reitaisai and Comiket?
I expect something like different circles put their booths and people randomly come and visit (like those two events above)
But it looks like something different
Can someone explain how Touhoucon work?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on September 11, 2015, 06:05:47 am
- Which touhou character(s) has been shown to have both 'animal' ear with 'human' ear apart from Orin (Rin Kaenbyou)?
Is this even canon? Did ZUN mention anything about this? Seems like a slip of the mind, really.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on September 11, 2015, 09:10:48 am
Is this even canon? Did ZUN mention anything about this? Seems like a slip of the mind, really.
I don't think there's a single appearance when she doesn't have both. Even if it wasn't intentional there's no stopping it. Less controversial than Momiji not/having wolf ears, at least.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on September 12, 2015, 07:00:17 am
Who are some of the more childishly naive, pure, and/or innocent of the touhous (or can be interpreted as such)? The fairies or Youmu first come to mind. Fairies, because they're essentially child-like sprites of nature. Youmu is portrayed as pretty naive, but she has a certain steeliness and coldness to her. I guess Sukuna?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on September 13, 2015, 03:13:26 am
Who are some of the more childishly naive, pure, and/or innocent of the touhous (or can be interpreted as such)? The fairies or Youmu first come to mind. Fairies, because they're essentially child-like sprites of nature. Youmu is portrayed as pretty naive, but she has a certain steeliness and coldness to her. I guess Sukuna?
Chen comes to mind in terms of "Childishy Naive", but sometimes fandom over exaggerates her and adds the "pure" part to her. Flandre is sometimes depicted in fandom as being naive of her destruction (Don't think this is the case in canon, but she barely shows up in canon anyways.), almost never pure or innocent, however (that i know of). I guess Rumia might count as being naive too, she does look and act young. Relimia looks like a young girl, but she doesn't come out to me as being very naive, pure, or innocent. Koishi is diffidently childish and naive, and probably kind of innocent. Hata no Kokoro is the only one i think that fits all 3 of the things you said, but i could be wrong. Also there are the earth rabbits (non-youkai, Tewi is differently NOT innocent, pure, or naive). Finally there's Rin and Utsuho, who both come out to me as being childish, despite Utsuho's some what mature appearance, but she's diffiently naive, maybe not too innocent however, as she almost destoryed everything with her atomic powers, Rin might be innocent, but then again she does like corpses.......
Oh, and cirno and the three fairies, not pure or innocent however.
Yeah, not alot of innocent or pure (unless you count lunarians) touhous, the only REALLY innocent one imo is Sukuna, maybe i'm wrong, but thats how it seems to me.

Anyways, branching out your question a fair bit to focus on immature in terms of a stereotypical teen toehoes, because i'm bored, Reimu (and Marisa too, i guess.) in WAHH is pretty childish, but in most other canonical works, she's...i guess about a late teen or young adult. Also, i feel that Youmu is also about a young teen in terms of maturity, as she seems to be about or under the same age as reimu and marisa. However, the most "immature teen" touhou character is differently Tenshi. She's practically a entitled rich kid!
God, i ramble so much. Sorry if this was long winded, i was bored.

edit: Also, while i mostly stayed off PC-89 characters, i should point out that PC-89 Reimu comes out as being Naive and pretty Innocent as well. Also Yuyuko has an (IMO) stereotypical entitled teen exterior, but inside she's probably about as smart and cunning as Yukari.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: SerB18 on September 13, 2015, 10:54:14 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5F8vS51_BQ
Does anybody know what game this is and where can I download it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arP-F04ruEk
as well as this one and its particular built, thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Kaizaki on September 14, 2015, 02:25:43 am
In Magic Team's Extra dialogue in IN, Mokou is known for saying immediately before the battle that,

"The Hourai Elixir is a forbidden medicine that should never be consumed by humans. With a single touch, you will never become an adult. With a second touch, you will forget all disease and illness. With a third touch... Your souls will forever churn in torment!"

In other teams' scenarios, she also says flowery things:

"The guts of this trial are the smoke of Mount Fuji. The eternal volcanic ash, reaching to the moon. An ever-resurrecting immortal bird, born from unextinguishable flames. A legendary phoenix, growing in strength with each rebirth. The bullets of this evening will be the young lady's eternal trauma."

"Ghosts who have forgotten nirvana cannot be reborn. A human who cannot die will not know the vivid Netherworld. As one really lives, lives, lives, she doesn't know the start of life. As one really dies, dies, dies, she doesn't know the end or death. As I do not know death, I have surpassed that darkness. See this beautiful danmaku, unchained from the dark samsara!"

And an allusion to a legend (Ichijou Returning Bridge):

"If you don't go all out, it's game over for your life. There's no turning back now. It's a one-way street in the dead of night. Just what you wanted. Allow me to test your guts!"

That said, given the context, was her quote about the three tastes of the Elixir figurative or literal? In my view, Mokou was just being Mokou and dramatic. I'm aware that there may not be a definite answer, but I'd still like to hear others' opinions.

Cheers in advance!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on September 14, 2015, 04:20:56 am
I find it interesting that all three of those tastes are worded negatively. 'You can longer reach adulthood' as opposed to 'you will have eternal youth'. That she precedes the second  '...forget illness' with this seems to me to imply that she considers this as something negative, or at least inhuman. Especially since the third one is also definitely bad. '〜も忘れる' would argue in favor of this, since it shows these aren't isolated events.
A nuance lost in that particular translation of the third taste is that she says "your souls [too] will forever churn in torment", as in this is what Mokou is already experiencing and two more will join her if they also taste the elixir for a third time.
Though speaking of translations, here is that third taste phrase:
お前達も永遠の苦輪に悩むがいい
The one you have is clear and convenient though I wonder if it's necessarily accurate. 苦輪 apparently refers to the cycle of life and rebirth from Buddhism and how the pains, suffering, worries, losses, struggles, etc never go away because life continuously dips back into them with each new cycle of life. The literal kanji is suffering-cycle/wheel, which analogues the wheels on a cart and how it always keeps turning. 悩む means to be troubled in thought about, to be distressed, concerned, ill at mind about, etc. So what she may be saying is that they too will be disquieted by the eternal cycle of suffering and pain. I imagine it to be like a kind of eureka moment, except one of horror and comprehension. A kind of trying to measure eternity, if you will. Like being lost at sea in a storm or heavy mist and then it suddenly lifting and realizing that there's nothing in any direction as far as the eye can see. Horror, because there's nothing, comprehension because in Mokou's case, there will always be nothing as far as the eye can see. She'll always be a little boat rocked by waves and storms with the occasional calms, and this thought is what she says third tasters will have to agonize over.
(Side note: 永遠の苦輪, not 永遠に悩む, though the 'forever' part may be implied, it's not an explicit foregone conclusion. For all we know, she did agonize over this but has since come to peace with it. I assume CiLR or something would shed light on this, I need to go read those)
So to me, I find those three tastes as rather a progression of her realizations as a hourai being. She knew upon drinking that she would never die, but never knew specific details about it. Maybe after a year, she realizes she's not aging. After another year, she realizes she hasn't caught a cold at all. And after years of wandering around aimlessly living from meal to meal, she realizes that this cycle is going to continue forever.
And also because I find it doesn't make too much sense. Do people have to taste her liver three times too to get the whole hourai package?

Edit: on second thought, 悩む here probably means that this situation is actively tormenting her (and hence the translation). Though I think some of my reasoning still somewhat valid, and as background information.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Biakmon on September 16, 2015, 11:38:52 am
- Can someone knowledgeable on japanese linguistic confirm/verify the accuracy of those particular translations, please.

Hecatia Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-1 また、月、地球、異界には地獄も存在し、コアとなる魂は地獄にある為、
  敵としてみると中々まともに手が出せない厄介な神様。
  ちなみに夢の世界は異界に相当する。

- Also, since the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World each have their own Hell, and her core soul resides in Hell,
she's a rather troublesome god who can't easily be retaliated against if viewed as an enemy.
The Dream World falls under 'Otherworlds', by the way.

- Also when did the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World have their own respectively Hell? (I thought their was only one hell for all of them...)

Junko Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-2 彼女は月の民、嫦娥(じょうが)に強い怨みを持っていた。
  詳しいことはゲームの一部エンディングと被るので省くが、
  繰り返し月の都を襲っては、賢者に怒りを静められる存在だったようだ。
  夫に息子を殺された、と言うのが最初の怨みだが、既に怨みは純化し、
  一人歩きしている様だ。

- She had a deep grudge against Chang'e, one of the Moon's people.
Details are included in one of the game's endings, so things will be kept brief here,
but it seems that she calmed her rage against the sages by repeatedly attacking the Lunar Capital.
Her first grudge came about when her husband killed her child, but said grudge has already been purified
to the point where her anger stands on its own.

-3 嫦娥とは、今作品には出てこないが月の都に幽閉された、月の女神である。
  月の兎の支配者でもあり、強大な力を持っているが、表に出ることは無い。
  嫦娥は蓬莱の薬を使った罪人であるのだ。

- Chang'e doesn't appear in the game itself, but she's a goddess of the moon imprisoned in the Lunar Capital.
She rules over the moon rabbits and is extremely powerful, but she doesn't show herself publicly.
She is also a criminal who drank the Hourai Elixir.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on September 17, 2015, 12:02:40 am
- Can someone knowledgeable on japanese linguistic confirm/verify the accuracy of those particular translations, please.

Hecatia Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-1 また、月、地球、異界には地獄も存在し、コアとなる魂は地獄にある為、
  敵としてみると中々まともに手が出せない厄介な神様。
  ちなみに夢の世界は異界に相当する。

- Also, since the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World each have their own Hell, and her core soul resides in Hell,
she's a rather troublesome god who can't easily be retaliated against if viewed as an enemy.
The Dream World falls under 'Otherworlds', by the way.

- Also when did the Moon, Earth, and Spirit World have their own respectively Hell? (I thought their was only one hell for all of them...)

I have no idea why the translation switched from "Spirit World" to "Otherworld" in the same paragraph. Either would be okay, I think, but consistency is important. Basically it's saying that you can read "Spirit World" as "Dream World" for the purposes of the plot in this game. Also, since Hecatia has this whole trinity thing going on, I'm pretty sure Otherworld isn't mean to be plural anyway.

Regarding each of the worlds having their own respective hell, the wording in Japanese is something like "Hell also exists in Earth, the Moon, and the Spirit World." While it's not explicit, the wording sort of implies that's there's more than one Hell, and specifically that Hell exists in each of these three places. Although the next line makes it seem like "her core is hiding in Hell, so it's hard for people to fight her." So I guess they would share a Hell? Basically, this line confuses me, so someone else will need to answer.

Quote
Junko Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom - omake.txt

-2 彼女は月の民、嫦娥(じょうが)に強い怨みを持っていた。
  詳しいことはゲームの一部エンディングと被るので省くが、
  繰り返し月の都を襲っては、賢者に怒りを静められる存在だったようだ。
  夫に息子を殺された、と言うのが最初の怨みだが、既に怨みは純化し、
  一人歩きしている様だ。

- She had a deep grudge against Chang'e, one of the Moon's people.
Details are included in one of the game's endings, so things will be kept brief here,
but it seems that she calmed her rage against the sages by repeatedly attacking the Lunar Capital.
Her first grudge came about when her husband killed her child, but said grudge has already been purified
to the point where her anger stands on its own.

Not sure exactly sure what you're asking about here, but my problem with this is the middle line about calming her rage. I would have translated it as "It seems she is a being that can only satisfy her rage against the sages by repeatedly attacking the Lunar Capital." Her rage hasn't been calmed yet, obviously (although that happens later in the profile).

Quote
-3 嫦娥とは、今作品には出てこないが月の都に幽閉された、月の女神である。
  月の兎の支配者でもあり、強大な力を持っているが、表に出ることは無い。
  嫦娥は蓬莱の薬を使った罪人であるのだ。

- Chang'e doesn't appear in the game itself, but she's a goddess of the moon imprisoned in the Lunar Capital.
She rules over the moon rabbits and is extremely powerful, but she doesn't show herself publicly.
She is also a criminal who drank the Hourai Elixir.

This is correct, as far as I can tell. I don't like the tone though, it's way too conversational for what it is.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on September 19, 2015, 01:19:24 am
Quick question: What is the thing written next to Hecatia's portrait right before her battle starts?

It looks repetitive so I guess it's something like a kekekeke-style laugh, but I'd like to make sure!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: gilde on September 19, 2015, 03:06:28 am
Quick question: What is the thing written next to Hecatia's portrait right before her battle starts?

It looks repetitive so I guess it's something like a kekekeke-style laugh, but I'd like to make sure!

ゴゴゴゴ - basically "DUN DUN DUN" onomatopoeia.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: GuardianTempest on September 29, 2015, 09:35:13 am
I just discovered Melodic Taste, are there any other circle that produces bombastic, orchestral music which fits as background battle music?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: snowflake247 on September 29, 2015, 12:37:31 pm
Tutti Sound, perhaps?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: GuardianTempest on September 29, 2015, 01:55:56 pm
Thank you, their work sounds really great.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on September 29, 2015, 07:29:30 pm
Regarding shinigami not being the ones who kill hermits and celestials, is there a possibility that they actually do it for celestials? When Komachi fights Tenshi, Tenshi says that shinigami are one of the few things celestials fear, and that she already fought them before.
If she only said celestials fear shinigami, i'd suppose it's just because they represent death and not because they kill, but since she also claims that she already fought them to extend her life, maybe reaper shinigami exist after all?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Biakmon on September 30, 2015, 03:03:32 pm
For those of you who can read japanese, I was wondering if there were any relevant information that ZUN has said during those interviews below and if yes, what were they, please?

- http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Febri/Ten_Desires_and_Touhou_Project_interview_with_ZUN_Part1 /2
- http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Febri/Fairy_Wars_interview_with_ZUN
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on September 30, 2015, 06:52:43 pm
Regarding shinigami not being the ones who kill hermits and celestials, is there a possibility that they actually do it for celestials? When Komachi fights Tenshi, Tenshi says that shinigami are one of the few things celestials fear, and that she already fought them before.
If she only said celestials fear shinigami, i'd suppose it's just because they represent death and not because they kill, but since she also claims that she already fought them to extend her life, maybe reaper shinigami exist after all?

In WaHH, Komachi said that shinigami don't even collect souls, since souls move to Higan on their own after death. And if the Ministry really wants someone dead they'd send a Kishin instead. While it's possible there's some weird exception for Celestials, I think the more likely explanation is that the shinigami are testing them to see if they're worthy of their immortality. Remember that shinigami not collecting souls is supposed to be a secret, so Tenshi may not have realized that they were just testing her and actually thought she was fighting for her life.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on October 11, 2015, 07:36:44 pm
So I was looking at the character mottos in PoFV (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Translation#Main_Game) and noticed that there were some idioms being translated literally. I tried to make the translations more, well, idiomatic, but then I came to Merlin's.

It's 高山流水, currently translated as "Alpine Stream". A Japanese dictionary gives me "High mountains and running water; the beauty of nature; beautifully (skilfully) played music", while a Chinese one gives me "intimate and understanding friend; sublime musical composition". Taking the Chinese version rather loosely... would "Play By the Same Tune" make sense here?
For that matter the other two Prismrivers both have the motto 光彩陸離 - I'm not sure if it was originally like that or just a transcription error.

Yuuka's motto also has me puzzled. Komachi's and Eiki's are readable I guess but they could be more clear.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: ycdtosa on October 12, 2015, 07:39:32 pm
I remember when I played the demo using thcrap that there were some differences between the stories, namely whether the main character drank Eirin's medicine. I don't see any differences in the story now that I'm playing the full version through thcrap though. Am I just recalling things incorrectly or doesn't anyone else remember this, I would check myself but for some reason thcrap doesn't work on the demo or me atm.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Kuilfrayt on October 13, 2015, 10:03:53 pm
Small question: In Junko's dialogue, she calls herself a 仙霊 (translated as sagacious spirit). What exactly is that? We're trying to find a good French translation for it, and are just coming short.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on October 14, 2015, 03:04:12 am
I remember when I played the demo using thcrap that there were some differences between the stories, namely whether the main character drank Eirin's medicine. I don't see any differences in the story now that I'm playing the full version through thcrap though. Am I just recalling things incorrectly or doesn't anyone else remember this, I would check myself but for some reason thcrap doesn't work on the demo or me atm.

Two things first; you can find out any differences on the touhou wiki, and there is a miscellaneous questions thread for things like this. You don't have to make a whole topic for it.

Junko's dialogue is different based on your mode, and you get a different ending based on your mode. Also, if you get through Legacy without dying once, the game treats you as if you'd been playing on Point Device (as far as story goes).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 14, 2015, 04:05:23 am
Nobody knows whether it has particular relation to divine spirits (神霊) or hermits (仙人). It's just what Junko calls herself so there might not really be much meaning to it. "Sagacious" would have come from "sage" being an alternate translation of "hermit". Avisé ou sagace sont probablement assez correctes? Je ne sais pas si on a un vocabulaire plus "fantastique" que cela.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: kevin1127 on October 14, 2015, 04:38:23 am
Isn't her profile says divine spirit? (種族:神霊)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 14, 2015, 06:24:27 am
She is classified as a divine spirit, yes. The relevant line in her dialogue is 私の名は純狐、月の民に仇なす仙霊である, or "My name is Junko. A [仙霊] bearing a grudge against the people of the Moon".
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: ycdtosa on October 14, 2015, 10:16:46 pm
Two things first; you can find out any differences on the touhou wiki, and there is a miscellaneous questions thread for things like this. You don't have to make a whole topic for it.

Junko's dialogue is different based on your mode, and you get a different ending based on your mode. Also, if you get through Legacy without dying once, the game treats you as if you'd been playing on Point Device (as far as story goes).

I didn't realize there was a misc question thread, thanks for pointing out that there are differences on stage 6 also.

I did check the Touhou Wiki before posting this by the way, I just didn't check past stage 3 since the demo didn't go past stage 3. It's probably that I'm just remembering it completely wrong but I was sure that in the demo Doremy Sweet's dialogue was different depending on the gamemode, but that was 001a and an earlier version of the translation.

Out of curiosity are those 1CCs in your signature? I only ask because Flan is one of the only extras I've beaten and I can't imagine SA with no continues on hard, let alone lunatic.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Kuilfrayt on October 16, 2015, 03:36:14 am
Nobody knows whether it has particular relation to divine spirits (神霊) or hermits (仙人). It's just what Junko calls herself so there might not really be much meaning to it. "Sagacious" would have come from "sage" being an alternate translation of "hermit". Avisé ou sagace sont probablement assez correctes? Je ne sais pas si on a un vocabulaire plus "fantastique" que cela.
Alright thanks! I wasn't sure if her calling herself 仙霊 was in any way related to being a divine spirit, like it said in the article, a person reaching godhood. So, I thought, maybe she was an hermit of some sort that became this way in death, hence why she called herself a sagacious spirit. Et oui, on a été avec "sagage", c'était celui le plus près du sens des kanjis. Merci encore!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on October 16, 2015, 11:12:27 pm
Are moon rabbits considered youkai? I'd always assumed so, but lately, more and more information has come up that has made me start questioning this.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on October 17, 2015, 02:29:01 am
Are moon rabbits considered youkai? I'd always assumed so, but lately, more and more information has come up that has made me start questioning this.

They don't seem to be, especially as of LoLK.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on October 18, 2015, 11:19:06 pm
Does anyone know what the standards of hygiene are in this period, in the history of Japan, that Gensokyo is set in? If they took showers, if they did, how they did it. In rivers? I know that washing clothes in rivers has been around since forever in Asia. I assume the Japanese also used outhouses? Did it also involve pigs?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Abraham Lincoln on October 19, 2015, 11:49:07 am
Any fugue Touhou arrangements out there? I know there's one based on Flandre's theme (sort of).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on October 19, 2015, 04:41:50 pm
Try searching 東方 フーガ
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: shockdude on October 20, 2015, 03:04:23 am
In the mangas, Reimu does a bunch of shrine maiden-ey stuff like summoning gods and spirits, but she's never used these abilities in the games. Is there a particular reason for this, or is simply a case of "it just hasn't happened?" Spirit summoning would make an interesting game mechanic imo.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 20, 2015, 04:19:18 am
Yeah but you can't exactly generalize that to other characters

Does anyone know what the standards of hygiene are in this period, in the history of Japan, that Gensokyo is set in? If they took showers, if they did, how they did it. In rivers? I know that washing clothes in rivers has been around since forever in Asia. I assume the Japanese also used outhouses? Did it also involve pigs?
Well one thing is that Gensokyo isn't reflective of a single era, especially now that we have various factions explicitly from various eras, e.g. Taoist faction from the Asuka period, Myouren faction from the Heian period, etc. Gensokyo was sealed at the very beginning of the Meiji period, coming off from the Edo period, so one would assume technology hasn't advanced much since then (but it has, in a sense), but around that time the first simple water pipe and sewage systems were being built, even if it wasn't widely adopted until much later. Wooden basins were used to wash faces, hair, etc, as well as clothes for which there were kinds of wooden washboards. Communal bath houses were also a thing throughout Edo.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: shockdude on October 23, 2015, 02:02:34 pm
Yeah but you can't exactly generalize that to other characters
Not really; it could just fall under the generic category of "character-specific ability," e.g. Reimu with summoning things, Sakuya with timestop, Sanae invoking snakes/frogs/Moriya science, Marisa doing whatever because she's Marisa.
Could be implemented as an alternate bomb, could be implemented as a meter-based special power, etc.

Besides it's ZUN he's implemented stranger mechanics before.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Biakmon on October 23, 2015, 09:56:11 pm
Is there anyone currently in the process of translating (Eng-translation) the ongoing 'Strange Creators of Outer World' magazine (at least the ZUN interview)?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on October 27, 2015, 10:46:01 am
Is there anyone currently in the process of translating (Eng-translation) the ongoing 'Strange Creators of Outer World' magazine (at least the ZUN interview)?
I would also be interested in the introduction for beginners, especially regarding the barrier (since it came out relatively often in this last period). Anyone knows if there are things that got retconned/confirmed/denied?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 28, 2015, 03:01:53 am
I really want to go over it at some point, just for a rough translation that could be worked on later, but I've been really busy lately and haven't had the time :/
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on November 03, 2015, 05:51:35 pm
How is Suiki's (not Suika) name written in japanese?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 03, 2015, 10:05:45 pm
水鬼, lit. water oni
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Usamiko on November 07, 2015, 11:02:13 am
Not sure where to post this but there's a paid Touhou game on the app store.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/magus-run/id886904612?mt=8

Is this legal?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on November 07, 2015, 11:36:51 am
Nope, neither are the in-app purchases.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights#Copyright_status.2FTerms_of_Use_of_the_Touhou_Project
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 07, 2015, 04:39:31 pm
Quote
This is a very fun, awesome game to pass the time and for road trips. HOWEVER it's as what others say, things "need" to be fixed. For one the Coin Store to purchase more coins is no longer working and that it'll crash the game if attempted. I thought maybe reinstalling it would work, but that clear made things worse....I've lost EVERYTHING... $20 ripped off... I solely wish and demand a refund from my purchases and I want my data back, because if the Coin Store is not working anytime soon, I WILL sue the creator. I'm sorry... But justice "must" be made for this! >_<***
This isn't a request; this is an absolute order...
can people actually be this dumb
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on November 07, 2015, 04:50:05 pm
You, sir, have no idea. :V
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lollipop on November 08, 2015, 12:27:28 am
What do you guys think Sunny Milk eats? She has ONE tooth. Other than liquids, I don't think she can eat anything else.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Camilo113 on November 09, 2015, 12:37:03 am
She has ONE tooth.
[citation needed]
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lollipop on November 09, 2015, 12:48:01 am
You mean proof? Well, her art shows her having one tooth. I think that's enough evidence. (Unless she's not showing all of her teeth in which case my question is nullified.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 09, 2015, 01:00:56 am
see: everything hirasaka has ever drawn
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on November 09, 2015, 01:36:54 am
When you have masticating magic you don't need teeth.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on November 09, 2015, 10:55:09 am
You mean proof? Well, her art shows her having one tooth. I think that's enough evidence. (Unless she's not showing all of her teeth in which case my question is nullified.)
http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/1/15/OSP3_cover.jpg

:V
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Delfigamer on November 09, 2015, 03:43:03 pm
Quote
Ah, that’s right. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_14) It’s unrelated, but did you know that the origin of red and white banners as an auspicious symbol is from True Hachiman? Most people have forgotten about it. It's such an old thing.
...So, Yukari messing with mind boundaries confirmed? Or is she just reading CoLA from behind the fourth wall?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lollipop on November 10, 2015, 12:07:52 am
http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/1/15/OSP3_cover.jpg

:V

well damn
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 10, 2015, 02:10:49 am
...So, Yukari messing with mind boundaries confirmed? Or is she just reading CoLA from behind the fourth wall?
itisamystery.gif
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on November 14, 2015, 05:27:25 am
About the topic I made which was blocked. Sorry guys, I had to read the rules four times before I truly understand it. Seriously sorry.

Now, requesting permission to restart topic, but this time by following the rules. And again, A thousand sorry's to everyone.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on November 14, 2015, 07:42:10 am
These "how you got into Touhou"/"what was your first Touhou" threads get remade every few months.

Can we please not have one of those again for at least one more year or two? I'm sure you can come up with something more interesting to discuss.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on November 17, 2015, 10:24:02 am
Okay, I'll think of some other topics to start with :smug:

How many Maidens have been sent to the Nuclear Furnace for an ETERNITY?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on November 20, 2015, 10:20:34 pm
Can someone here summarize Miko's Philosophy here for me? All that i remember about it is that she thinks humans need a leader. I don't remember the rest.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on November 21, 2015, 07:54:37 pm
Did Marisa say she wanted to become a youkai, or did she say she doesn't want to? I remember her trying to create an elixir of immortality, but i'm not sure about the becoming youkai thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Uruwi on November 21, 2015, 08:22:51 pm
Apparently, there are some restrictions on using Yukkuris in your stuff. In particular, if it has a Yukkuri Reimu, then it can't be uploaded to Youtube. Could anyone verify that this is what's being said?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UN815CZb68E/VkxAJ-JaJsI/AAAAAAAAW5k/35fDCLHkOi0/w530-h944-p-rw/18%2B-%2B1)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 22, 2015, 02:40:05 am
Did Marisa say she wanted to become a youkai, or did she say she doesn't want to? I remember her trying to create an elixir of immortality, but i'm not sure about the becoming youkai thing.
She doesn't really. She wants some of the perks of being long-lived and physically resilient/regenerative, but doesn't want to actually relinquish her humanity or anything of the sort, so it's become kind of a running theme where she gets interested in these techniques but shys away from the consequences.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: aListers on November 22, 2015, 05:49:12 am
How long after touhou 14 got released did it get announced that it'd be released online via playism?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 22, 2015, 07:02:28 am
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Double_Dealing_Character
Quote
The full game was released on August 12, 2013
Quote
On August 10, 2014, both ZUN and Playism confirmed a digital download for the game, available on the site of Playism.
Quote
On April 7, 2015, Playism announced that it would bring the game to western territories.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: gilde on November 24, 2015, 01:52:56 am
Apparently, there are some restrictions on using Yukkuris in your stuff. In particular, if it has a Yukkuri Reimu, then it can't be uploaded to Youtube. Could anyone verify that this is what's being said?

Those look like guidelines for the specific Yukkuri graphics offered on the page in question, not Yukkuris in general. But yeah.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on November 24, 2015, 04:01:19 pm
Can someone here summarize Miko's Philosophy here for me? All that i remember about it is that she thinks humans need a leader. I don't remember the rest.
She thinks people should be true to themselves and follow their desires, basically, and sees Buddhism as a shallow ideology that's only good for pacifying the masses. This is contrasted with Byakuren thinking people should change themselves and be rid of all desires, and that Buddhism is applicable even for youkai.

Religious pitches in Gensokyo probably go something like

Miko: "So you wish to become my disciple? That is understandable; not to boast, but I am quite literally blessed by heaven with talents beyond that of mortal man. Very well, I can provide an environment and a training regime which should be suited to your needs. Make no mistake, however: I cannot guarantee you will gain anything from this experience. I merely provide a starting point, and after that everything is up to you. Regardless of your approach, I will neither praise you for good work nor chastise you for your mistakes. As long as it doesn't affect me or your fellow students, I don't even care if you use what you have learned for good or for evil - that's your business, not mine. Knowing this, are you still willing to continue? Alright... you can start your training by fetching me a drink."

Byakuren: "Myouren Temple offers a sanctuary for those who would be shunned by the wider world. Here we believe that youkai are equal to humans in the eyes of Buddha, and through devotion all can be saved. No matter how many crimes you may have committed in the past, even if you have lost all hope of redemption, we will never turn someone away; fear not for your own weakness, for you are loved. I know there have been rumors lately of some of our acolytes displaying... problematic behavior, but rest assured: we are quick to discipline members of our flock when need be. Rather, the mere fact that they have chosen to attend services here should be proof enough that they are compassionate souls who are struggling against their darker impulses and meant no harm by their actions."

Kanako: "That's an awfully nice mountain you got there. Shame if something were to happen to it."

Reimu: "Donate to the Hakurei Shrine today, and you could win a prize! What's the prize? Well that's, erm..."
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 25, 2015, 04:37:10 am
To be fair to Kanako, she's really all about progress; industrial in particular for the technologically (mainly infrastructure) poor Gensokyo. Her goals benefit herself by being the face of change, but since she believes she knows what's best to push Gensokyo forward (in some sense) and that her goals "should be" beneficial for others, her primary platform is "the world should be fulfilled in all aspects as much as possible, and I know how to make that happen and be relevant for you".
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on November 29, 2015, 11:24:55 pm
Thanks for the answers guys.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phantasmal on December 05, 2015, 10:01:55 pm
When did Rinnosuke make the Mini-Hakkero for Marisa, in-between-games wise?
In which game did it first canonically appear?
Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on December 06, 2015, 03:03:36 am
It's kind of assumed that because she could use the Master Spark in EoSD that in-universe she would have had the mini-Hakkero before then. Additionally in the CoLA illustration Marisa looks like a wee tyke. In PCB's prologue it says her home is heated by some magical heating, but the manual says it was a hot spring she summoned. Due to this (and its non-existence in IaMP) I don't think it was really envisioned at the time.

The formal introduction to the mini-Hakkero came in June/July 2004, inbetween IN's trial and full release. It doesn't show up in PoFV nor in IaMP as far as I can tell so first time it's physically shown in a game would have been MoF.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on December 08, 2015, 03:38:16 am
How many people attended Reitaisai 12?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on December 08, 2015, 05:50:31 am
Approximately 52000 were in general attendance for Reitaisai 12, but that doesn't count the additional 3800 participating circles.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/tohomemory/archives/44056548.html
http://reitaisai.com/rts12/name-circle
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Bicè- on December 09, 2015, 03:26:20 pm
https://youtu.be/Zu899UauMj4?t=67 (https://youtu.be/Zu899UauMj4?t=67)
Just for curiosity, who is that woman?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Spotty Len on December 09, 2015, 05:21:51 pm
Sendai Hakurei no Miko, a fanmade character more popular than others. She is supposed to be the previous Hakurei shrine maiden.

Ironically, while she is supposed to originate from MUGEN, I don't think I ever saw her in a battle before. :V

(I'm assuming you're not talking about Yukari.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Bicè- on December 09, 2015, 06:46:45 pm
Oh... strangely, I've never heard of her... :derp:
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Crow on December 13, 2015, 12:36:29 pm
Who would be the best opposite of Reimu ? I think it's Rika because I see Rika as determined as Reimu and instead of using occult/magic thing, she uses science. I don't see Marisa as the opposite of Reimu at all but as a friendly rival.
While Reimu is relying on her yin yang orbs, Rika relies on her machines/tank.

Who do you think is the opposite of Reimu ?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on December 13, 2015, 12:46:12 pm
Reimu is apathetic and antisocial, yet driven by a deep sense of duty. She's highly talented and everything comes easy to her. By contrast, Marisa is curious and friendly, and follows her whims more than anything. She's a hard worker who doesn't really want to draw attention to it. This is the basis of them being foils to each other. If you want to talk about powers, then Reimu's deals with things that are spiritual and unknowable, while Marisa practices a form of the scientific method that involves a lot of research and experimentation. I mean, yeah, it's magic, but when magic exists then the study of it is a form of science.

All that said, they're really quite similar deep down, so it's easy to see why they're good friends and friendly rivals.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Raikaria on December 13, 2015, 11:14:48 pm
Who would be the best opposite of Reimu ? I think it's Rika because I see Rika as determined as Reimu and instead of using occult/magic thing, she uses science. I don't see Marisa as the opposite of Reimu at all but as a friendly rival.
While Reimu is relying on her yin yang orbs, Rika relies on her machines/tank.

Who do you think is the opposite of Reimu ?

There's the Marisa answer above; but there's another one:

Sanae.

Sanae is a dutiful shrine maiden. Reimu is not to the degree her god has actually abandoned her shrine.
Reimu is very friendly to youkai [When they are not causing trouble.]. Sanae is not, and is openly excited about exterminating them.
Reimu is level-headed. Sanae quite frequently shows signs of either air-headedness or mild insanity.
Reimu is from Gensokyo, which is basically stuck in the past. Sanae is from the Outside World and modern day.
Reimu relies heavily upon her talent [And things like sealing needles/talismans. She hardly ever uses actual divine powers]. Sanae almost entirely relies upon the power of her Gods, and if she's not using their divine powers she's using her own power of miracles; which is full on divine too.
Reimu is human. Sanae technically is not. [She is a Demigod. Well; not a Demi [Half] god but you get the idea.]
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Crow on December 14, 2015, 05:52:43 pm
Ah yes, I find Sanae a great exemple of what an opposite of Reimu can be. She's a great opposite while having the "same job". Seeing things like that, she really is the opposite of Reimu concerning almost everything.

I have another question. Why some person of gensokyo says that Yuuka looks like Reimu ?(mostly in POFV) Are they obly talking about the color of the dress or something ? Even Vivit asks Yuuka if she met her before, apparently, she would be talking about Reimu. What is the basis of this ? Do you think Yuuka and Reimu shares many similarities ?

Also, I wonder why Yuuka oftenly play the ambiguous person about the "human" thing, saying "treating people like youkai . . ." or Shinki saying "Though you're a human !". Maybe it can be explained because peoples confound the two of them, but that's another story.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on December 14, 2015, 09:33:42 pm
Reimu is very friendly to youkai [When they are not causing trouble.]. Sanae is not, and is openly excited about exterminating them.
Reimu isn't really friendly towards youkai. She just doesn't really care about either youkai or humans. Like clastre said, she's quite antisocial. She is frequently shown to be  annoyed at youkai hanging around the shrine since they scare humans away, and likely only wants humans around so that they can donate to the shrine.
Reimu is level-headed. Sanae quite frequently shows signs of either air-headedness or mild insanity.
Kinda debatable. Sanae was acting quite off her rocker in touhou 11 and 12, yeah, but ever since 12.3 (where she even chews Suwako out for doing sneaky stuff) she has toned it down quite a bit. She's more airheaded than Reimu, yeah, but going by her recent game and manga appearances, saying she has "mild insanity" is kinda pushing it. Also, calling Reimu "shoot first, ask questions second, care about the answers never" Hakurei "level-headed" is a bit of a stretch as well. I mean, she has a pretty damn short-fuse :V

A better contrast between them might be their different dispositions; Reimu is usually shown as grumpy/generally apathetic in the mangas, while Sanae frequently appears quite chipper and cheerful.

I have another question. Why some person of gensokyo says that Yuuka looks like Reimu ?(mostly in POFV) Are they obly talking about the color of the dress or something ? Even Vivit asks Yuuka if she met her before, apparently, she would be talking about Reimu. What is the basis of this ? Do you think Yuuka and Reimu shares many similarities ?

Also, I wonder why Yuuka oftenly play the ambiguous person about the "human" thing, saying "treating people like youkai . . ." or Shinki saying "Though you're a human !". Maybe it can be explained because peoples confound the two of them, but that's another story.
I assume it's just because they both wear red, and in PoFV it might just be a nod to the occasions that happened before.

And Yuuka probably does that because she's canonicaly an unpleasnat youkai that enjoys lying to people for her own amusement.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Spotty Len on December 14, 2015, 10:28:26 pm
And Yuuka probably does that because she's canonicaly an asshole that likes to lie to annoy people for shits and giggles :V
You can make interpretations about canon without being offensive, you know.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on December 14, 2015, 11:01:43 pm
You can make interpretations about canon without being offensive, you know.
You're right, I apologize. I've changed the wording in my post.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on December 15, 2015, 01:38:16 am
Also, calling Reimu "shoot first, ask questions second, care about the answers never" Hakurei "level-headed" is a bit of a stretch as well. I mean, she has a pretty damn short-fuse :V
Thats also debatable, EVERYONE in Gensokyo has a shoot first policy, and Reimu seems really only pissed on certain occasions, sure she's not "level-headed" but i would say she is at least somewhat "Layed Back", i mean when she's not solving a incident or trying to scam people out of their money, she's usually sitting on her ass getting drunk as hell and laughing at some dumb jokes, or just laughing at some dumb joke with her pal Marisa. Sure, sometimes she is a bitch, but sometimes she not, basically, shes a Teenager.

Also Reimu DOES like Sukia, sure she's kind of Youkai racist, but she does at the very least see Sukia as a drinking buddy.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on December 15, 2015, 01:46:30 am
Reimu is indifferent to everyone, both humans and youkai. That's why she's apathetic and antisocial. However, her job requires her to be antagonistic to youkai (despite her personal feelings), so whenever anyone might be looking she tightens the screws. When no one's looking though, they can do whatever the heck they want as long as they don't bother her.

Her "friendship" with Suika has been greatly exaggerated by the fandom. Suika just stayed over at the shrine for a while, I don't think she's there anymore. Suika's a roamer in general: she also hung out in heaven for a bit after SWR and presumably moved on to something else later.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on December 15, 2015, 02:02:27 am
Her "friendship" with Suika has been greatly exaggerated by the fandom. Suika just stayed over at the shrine for a while, I don't think she's there anymore. Suika a roamer in general: she also hung out in heaven for a bit after SWR and presumably moved on to something else later.
Huh, so i guess Reimu's only "friends" are Marisa and sort of kind of Kasen and sort of kind of Sanae, kind of sad if you think about it, but then again Raymoo did sort of bring it on herself.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on December 15, 2015, 02:20:13 am
Well, Reimu routinely has drinking parties with pretty much everyone so it's not like she's a complete loner, she just doesn't seem particularly close to Suika.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Crow on December 15, 2015, 01:09:30 pm
What you're saying reminds me of Sengoku Gensokyo, a fan game where Yukari is in fact worried about Reimu because Reimu is always alone in her heart. Since then, I've always thinked that Yukari is right when she's saying that.
After all, you can know many people and sometimes visit them without really being friends with them. You're just on good terms with them. That's exactly how I see Reimu, not too close to other yet not cold to them.
She's not intolerant about youkai and does her job because she has to do it but Reimu doesn't really care if someone's a youkai or human. She's lonely and she lives it well.(or at least, she seems to be)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Maple on December 16, 2015, 07:13:14 pm
Technical question incoming:

About ZUN's terms of service (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights), does it follow closely the system of an actual copyright license (eg. Creative Commons)? My biggest interest is the part that prevents "commercial"/"mass-produced"/"mass-distributed" works.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on December 16, 2015, 09:14:11 pm
Technical question incoming:

About ZUN's terms of service (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights), does it follow closely the system of an actual copyright license (eg. Creative Commons)? My biggest interest is the part that prevents "commercial"/"mass-produced"/"mass-distributed" works.

I highly recommend reading this thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17915.0.html), which may have the answers you need. If not, I hope someone who actual knows copyright law responds to you - that is, if you cannot find the information yourself. This is kinda one of those things you don't want to speculate and guess about.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Maple on December 17, 2015, 12:10:49 am
I highly recommend reading this thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,17915.0.html), which may have the answers you need. If not, I hope someone who actual knows copyright law responds to you - that is, if you cannot find the information yourself. This is kinda one of those things you don't want to speculate and guess about.
Actually, maybe i do need someone who knows about law. Leave 2hu aside for a while, and suppose that, hypothetically, me or some other wants to make a model like ZUN's, and be backed by actual law.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on December 17, 2015, 12:20:11 am
Well, unless you're planning to do whatever it is in Japan, modeling it after ZUN would be pretty meaningless anyway.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Abraham Lincoln on December 22, 2015, 02:29:55 am
Are Hecatia's Moon and Spirit World bodies known as Hecatia Peridot and Hecatia Garnet respectively or is that just something cooked up by a Steven Universe fan?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on December 22, 2015, 02:54:02 am
There is no information on this subject.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on December 22, 2015, 03:08:46 am
peridot is green anyways so it isn't even accurate
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on December 22, 2015, 05:58:42 am
Yeah its just some dumb steven universe fan with a dumb headcanon. Ignore him.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phantasmal on December 28, 2015, 04:35:41 am
Any news on Tofu 16? ZUN has been working hard recently, so it's understandable if he wants to take a break, but, is there any news? Anything at all?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on December 28, 2015, 06:26:29 am
LoLK came out four months ago. Calm down bud!

Most of ZUN's efforts right now are prooobably going towards the various running written works, considering Fairies is starting up again plus he's going for the next Strange Creators volume in Spring.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Maple on December 28, 2015, 02:14:41 pm
I have a question about kegare/impurity. So, it's a Shinto concept, something undesirable linked to the process of life and death including birth, illness, menstruation, death.

Now, does it limit itself to bioligical matters, or also to the actions/thoughts of people? Searching for the term pretty much always leads to the same source, whereas our THwiki mentions emotions like anger, and i find that the Persona series has a similar idea, but both are pieces of fiction with their own systems.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on December 29, 2015, 05:02:59 am
Tsumi is more related to actions (in and of themselves) and thoughts than kegare, which is more associated with natural occurrences like disaster, disease, injury (i.e. bleeding), and matters to do with death. Often kegare is seen as transmissible as well, and this follows in the Touhou universe. Tsumi would be one more usually translated as sin, whereas kegare is more of defilement, in a sense.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on January 01, 2016, 11:11:51 am
Short off-topic question:
Who the hell in the Internet invented the word 'necro'ing'? Which means posting a message in an old rotten topic (from what I understand). And all I can think of when I heard this is Yukari typing a message in the first MotK topic.

Also, sorry if this is question is not suitable in this section. If only there was a Miscellaneous Questions thread in Shrinemaiden Cafe that would be great.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Maple on January 01, 2016, 12:33:46 pm
"Necro" is a Greek word meaning "death", we use it as a prefix. For example necromancy. Originally necromancy meant divination, specifically by using the death (such as contacting ghosts) (things ending with "-mancy" refers to methods of divination, the prefix refers to the method used, like fire, the clouds, minerals, etc). Now necromancy refers to fictional magic which permits manipulation of the death, like reviving them, making them slaves, invoking death upon enemies.

Necroing, or necroposting, refers to the latter definition, where one poster "revives" a "death" thread by making a post weeks/months after the last one, thus bumpting the thread to the first page.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tiamat on January 02, 2016, 04:29:29 pm
Yea, necromancy is raising the dead, but not as an actual ressurection.  Instead what you get is an icky rotting undead thing.

Honestly not sure what other word could be used for raising up a dead rotten thread that people really shouldn't be caring about anymore.  "Necro" is pretty much exactly what's going on when someone does that.  I wouldn't be too surprised if there wasn't any singular creator for "necro" but instead that lots of different people just decided that was the right word for it, because I sure as heck can't think of any better or more accurate word for the action.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on January 03, 2016, 10:08:49 am
I wonder if that usually happens around here (Of course yes, every forum experienced it). By the way, the Internet's English usage is full of weirdness that it could be unofficially declared another type of English. :derp:   
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on January 03, 2016, 05:26:28 pm
I wonder if that usually happens around here

Happens regularly, but it's usually done by brand new users whose posts still need staff approval, so the necropost is deleted before anyone can see it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on January 07, 2016, 03:28:10 am
How do i edit the touhou wiki?
I was going to add infomation to the Prismriver's pages. But i can't seem to edit the pages.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on January 07, 2016, 03:45:24 am
I believe they require you to create an account, which also requires mod approval. Or something like that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on January 21, 2016, 02:10:56 am
Why is Sakuya in DDC, other than fan demand?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on January 21, 2016, 03:21:47 am
Why is Sakuya in DDC, other than fan demand?
Because ZUN wanted to use that particular character
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on January 21, 2016, 08:22:06 pm
Because her knives were affected by the mallet's power.

Also, I sincerely doubt Zun including Sakuya in DDC had even the smallest thing to do with fan demand.
Otherwise she'd still be around in LoLK.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on January 21, 2016, 10:09:43 pm
To be honest Sakuya has probably the most annoying fanbase out of all of the Toehoes.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on January 22, 2016, 10:29:19 am
To be honest Sakuya has probably the most annoying fanbase out of all of the Toehoes.

Oh this can definitely be disputed.

Anyway, I don't think fan expectations have much influence on ZUN's casting decisions, if at all. And I don't know why this idea persists e.g. "ZUN is trolling us" or whatever.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: cerulean_blues on January 22, 2016, 05:35:35 pm
Why is Sakuya in DDC, other than fan demand?

DDC's quest starts at Misty Lake which is close to the SDM. Even Cirno is there. I guess it makes sense to have Sakuya as another EoSD reference.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on January 23, 2016, 01:06:26 am
That might seem like the case, but the choice of Misty Lake is itself just as arbitrary as picking Sakuya for no reason, there's no real difference.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on January 23, 2016, 06:14:52 am
Oh this can definitely be disputed.

Anyway, I don't think fan expectations have much influence on ZUN's casting decisions, if at all. And I don't know why this idea persists e.g. "ZUN is trolling us" or whatever.

Can it? I don't disagree with the last part btw, but i feel that The Maid's fanbase seems to like treating characters who become playable (Like Sanae and You-moo) as "spot sealers" who stole Sakuya's respectful place as playable character, even thou she was shit gameplay wise. They wined too loudly about it IMO.

Thou, to be honest im probably saying that just because i don't like sakuya that much. Probably because i like Youmu so much.

(Thou, Youmoo's fanbase can be annoying at times as well, treating her as a innocent and easily fuckable child.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Biakmon on January 23, 2016, 10:05:28 pm
The only supervision he does is those editorial meetings. He is good at procrastinating until the deadline though.

Does that mean ZUN mostly just wrote the script for the manga without thoroughly examine the drawing for character inconsistency (if there is any)?
Does he just provide the artist loose guidelines about how he want his character(s) to be portray through the manga or is that the role of the artist to interpret the script?

I don't mean simply the overall design of Hakurei shrine which change thought out the numerous manga or the slight difference in Reimu personality between FS and WaHH which I think may have been done intentionally and isn't really important. I also read somewhere in one of his interview that Watatsuki no Toyohime suppose weapon of mass destruction end up being design as a fan because he did not really provide the artist any indication of it design.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: amalgam on January 24, 2016, 10:42:27 am
Has ZUN ever commented on the higher difficulties of UFO? In the Afterword to SA (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Subterranean_Animism/Translation/Afterword), he notes that he made Hard and Lunatic a bit too difficult. However, the consensus appears to be that UFO's Hard and Lunatic are more difficult than their counterparts in SA. I was wondering if an explanation from ZUN himself existed for this (or if not, what the most probable speculation is).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 01, 2016, 11:30:48 pm
I've seen an untranslated version of SCoOW, and i noticed that the first pages are about ULiL, LoLK characters (not the interview), IN, SSiB, and what i think is something about Yukari's Moon invasion (don't know if the 1st one or the one in SSiB). Those things don't seem to be on the wiki yet, does anyone know if there's something interesting/new there?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Quwanti on February 01, 2016, 11:32:26 pm
I've seen an untranslated version of SCoOW, and i noticed that the first pages are about ULiL, LoLK characters (not the interview), IN, SSiB, and what i think is something about Yukari's Moon invasion (don't know if the 1st one or the one in SSiB). Those things don't seem to be on the wiki yet, does anyone know if there's something interesting/new there?
A few of those are translated.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World#Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World_Volume.1
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 01, 2016, 11:58:50 pm
Yes, i know. What isn't on the wiki (not even untranslated) is the whole part before the interviews:
page 5 - the 4 playable characters of LoLK, and ULiL plot as backstory
page 6 - Seiran, Ringo, and Doremy, with pictures of their danmaku
page 7 - stuff about IN, SSiB, and what looks like "Youkai VS Lunarians" with Yukari's portrait.
page 8 - Sagume and Clownpiece with pictures of their danmaku
page 9 - Junko ad Hecatia with pictures of their danmaku
page 10 starts the LoLK interview, which is already translated.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lollipop on February 07, 2016, 10:12:06 pm
I don't think this should go here, but I can't find a better place :( Someone can move it or whatever

I've been trying to download this (http://mikumikudance.wikia.com/wiki/Alice_Margatroid_(Nigamon)) for the past while, but I have no idea what the password is. On the nico video that accompanies it, it says that the password is the time and month the creator posted the download link (i think) but that doesn't work. So uh help please
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 08, 2016, 03:09:02 am
Password is 201108192100 ("submission datetime, numbers only"). If that doesn't work, you have the wrong link.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lollipop on February 08, 2016, 03:20:42 am
thanks!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: saisengen on February 08, 2016, 05:47:01 am
Where can I download IOSYS Flash videos - exactly Flash, i.e. swf, not Youtube videos? I want to set wallpaper from one of IOSYS videos, but the highest resolution of this video on Youtube is 360, maybe original flash had better resolution. (It's "Endless Tewi-ma Park" video.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on February 08, 2016, 10:41:45 pm
Would the girls all have a crush on Bass (from the Mega Man series) if he somehow ended up in Gensokyo?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on February 09, 2016, 01:17:23 am
Would the girls all have a crush on Bass (from the Mega Man series) if he somehow ended up in Gensokyo?
No, cause the girls never seem to have any sexual attraction to anyone in any of the canonical games.
Proof: in IN none of the playable characters seemed to show any attraction towards Kaguya, even thou she is described as the most beautiful woman in the world. Same goes for Yuyuko, who is also described as being very beautiful.
And it can't be because they are straight, because none of the girls show attraction to Rinnosuke ether. Even thou Reimu and Marisa spend a lot of time around him, and despite the fact that he has a "White Haired Petty Boy" look, they seem to only regard him as a friend.
There ARE 4 toehoes that have been known to be married, but 1 of them (Seiga.) faked her death so she could get away from it. And Junko's husband is dead. Those two moon sisters who's name i cant remember, are married, but we don't know anything about their marriage, like if it was arranged or if they married out of love. and their husbands never show nor are named, so it doesn't matter.
IMO, having the girls show sexual attraction to Bass would not be in the spirit of The Touhou Project. Romance is not very important to the people of Genosokyo.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 09, 2016, 01:29:33 am
The Watatsuki sisters being married refers to their status as Toyotamahime and Tamayorihime, who are married to Hoori and Ugayafukiaezu respectively. Ugayafukiaezu is the son of Toyotamahime (i.e. married his aunt) and the father of Emperor Jimmu.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on February 09, 2016, 01:42:37 am
No, cause the girls never seem to have any sexual attraction to anyone in any of the canonical games.
Proof: in IN none of the playable characters seemed to show any attraction towards Kaguya, even thou she is described as the most beautiful woman in the world. Same goes for Yuyuko, who is also described as being very beautiful.
And it can't be because they are straight, because none of the girls show attraction to Rinnosuke ether. Even thou Reimu and Marisa spend a lot of time around him, and despite the fact that he has a "White Haired Petty Boy" look, they seem to only regard him as a friend.
There ARE 4 toehoes that have been known to be married, but 1 of them (Seiga.) faked her death so she could get away from it. And Junko's husband is dead. Those two moon sisters who's name i cant remember, are married, but we don't know anything about their marriage, like if it was arranged or if they married out of love. and their husbands never show nor are named, so it doesn't matter.
IMO, having the girls show sexual attraction to Bass would not be in the spirit of The Touhou Project. Romance is not very important to the people of Genosokyo.
Anything can happen in Gensokyo! They WILL have a crush on Bass. This is my opinion though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on February 09, 2016, 02:20:31 am
Anything can happen in Gensokyo! They WILL have a crush on Bass. This is my opinion though.
Well, if you were going to say that, then i have no idea why you ask that question in the first place.

But do whatever you want i guess. just as long as you don't have ALL of the girls of gensokyo bend on their knees for bass. that would be dumb IMO.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on February 09, 2016, 03:11:53 am
Well, if you were going to say that, then i have no idea why you ask that question in the first place.

But do whatever you want i guess. just as long as you don't have ALL of the girls of gensokyo bend on their knees for bass. that would be dumb IMO.
He has arrogance, so obey!   :U
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on February 09, 2016, 04:15:55 am
He has arrogance, so obey!   :U
Hey, Mystia also have arrogance, and as far as we know she doesn't have an harem following her at all times.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on February 09, 2016, 04:55:56 am
Canon-wise, how is Momiji's attitude? For some reason I get the impression that she acts highly professional and that if you have no business with her she'll be quite aloof with you.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on February 10, 2016, 09:36:06 am
Yesterday on IRC I was discussing shortly with Drake about Junko and Jouga (Chang'E ). I dove into various links (mainly the main wikipedia (not touhou)) and read the mythology regarding Houyi shooting down the suns. It was quite interesting thing to read. Though I have some questions. Please forgive me from jumping below in certain subjects, at the end of the post I will ask some ordered questions:

I want to start with Junko. I hate use wiki as sources but in the story of Houyi, the suns were 'sons' of Dijun. He ordered him to 'teach them a lesson' as they decided to all rise at the same time cause major issue. How the shooting happened I will put aside, but the fact remains he shot down 9 suns (children). If Junko's son got shot down, it means she lost 9 children and not just one as it seems to report on the Touhou Wiki. Does this mean Junko is Dijun's wife? Dijun is mentioned to have two wives. And was Junko (called Xihe in the article) the Mother of the Suns? Would this explain her sorrow for losing her son and possibly generating that grudge?

Article also mentions 'Changxi' (Not Chang'E (Jouga)) but questioned to be her and thus also Dijun's wife. This would make it odd if such was the case. I mean, Jouga can't be both Houyi and Dijun's wife. The hate towards Jouga seems very odd since it was her own husband who ordered the discipline of the 10 sons but they ended getting shot. Plus, it is also said that Dijun himself was angry of this and thus stripped Houyi of his heavenly immortality and sentenced him down to earth as a mortal. Only after some quests on earth he was granted the Hourai Elixer as exchange. Two of them, which his wife Jouga eventually drank and ascended to the moon.

Right so now down to my questions, but I need to mention few things before that:
- I sense that Houyi had no wife at the time of his heavenly immortality. Because Jouga is mentioned nowhere when the shooting of the suns happen.
- Jouga is mentioned after Houyi was punished mortal life.
- Jouga drank the elixers and ascended to the moon. (Article mentions various reasons, but the fact remains she drank them both)

Now here is what bothers me:


Does this mean Junko always had a grudge on Houyi and everything he related to? Would this indicate that as Houyi died, she moved her hate/grudge to Jouga, who actually should've been mortal but became immortal? So it is like eternal shoved blame on Jouga?

This quite fascinates + confuses me at the same time.

Wiki article source about Houyi and story of shooting the 9 suns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houyi
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 10, 2016, 04:13:35 pm
I thought Junko's son and the suns were two completely separate things, and that the suns were only relevant to Hecatia for the darkness of Hell.

For what i could understand from Reisen's ending, Houyi has been married to both Junko and Chang'e. The triangle-scheme-thing indicates that Junko had a son with him, then Houyi killed him because, to use Eirin's words, his wife (Chang'e) had "an evil gift". If the killed son was Houyi and Junko's son, it couldn't have been Dijun's son as well. Afer Junko killed Houyi, her grudge went completely towards Chang'e and the Lunarians, so she started to repeatedly attack the Capital. Unless i'm missing something, we don't know how long Junko's grudge has been going on before LoLK.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Fulisha of Light on February 11, 2016, 08:47:24 am
Not sure if this is the thread to ask, but I've seen a similar question here before.

What font does ZUN use for the boss names that appear in the top left corner of the screen (where the boss's health is above it and the number of spellcards are below it)?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on February 11, 2016, 12:02:34 pm
I thought Junko's son and the suns were two completely separate things, and that the suns were only relevant to Hecatia for the darkness of Hell.

For what i could understand from Reisen's ending, Houyi has been married to both Junko and Chang'e. The triangle-scheme-thing indicates that Junko had a son with him, then Houyi killed him because, to use Eirin's words, his wife (Chang'e) had "an evil gift". If the killed son was Houyi and Junko's son, it couldn't have been Dijun's son as well. Afer Junko killed Houyi, her grudge went completely towards Chang'e and the Lunarians, so she started to repeatedly attack the Capital. Unless i'm missing something, we don't know how long Junko's grudge has been going on before LoLK.
I am not quite sure if I am following your post or it reflects LoLK and/or Junko's speculative profile. Neither sure about Reisen's ending. Is Houyi even mentioned in there? Or Dijun?

My post was mainly analysing the story of Houyi shooting the 9 suns. In the mythology, Dijun is the father of the suns. Xihe and Changxi are mentioned as wives. The Mother of Sons is mentioned as a title, not linked to Xihe or Changxi.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Rp97 on February 11, 2016, 12:40:05 pm
Recently I heard that the title of Marisa in FS,"Extremely Ordinary Magician", sounds very suspicious, is possible that after years of using and studying Magic Marisa has become a youkai maybe whitout fully realizing that herself ? Also her title in touhou 3 and 4,"A Being made of Magic and Red Dream", sounds like to suggest that she was something non-human even then (if you treat the pc-98 as Canon), what do you think about it ?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 11, 2016, 01:58:25 pm
Neither sure about Reisen's ending. Is Houyi even mentioned in there? Or Dijun?
Well, there's this (http://i.imgur.com/Qyehl6e.png) thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on February 11, 2016, 05:20:49 pm
Recently I heard that the title of Marisa in FS,"Extremely Ordinary Magician", sounds very suspicious, is possible that after years of using and studying Magic Marisa has become a youkai maybe whitout fully realizing that herself ? Also her title in touhou 3 and 4,"A Being made of Magic and Red Dream", sounds like to suggest that she was something non-human even then (if you treat the pc-98 as Canon), what do you think about it ?

There's a very specific condition for a human to become a magician youkai. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Magician) Marisa was working on it, but quite explicitly didn't succeed yet. Odds are she doesn't really want to actually do that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on February 11, 2016, 06:24:53 pm
Recently I heard that the title of Marisa in FS,"Extremely Ordinary Magician", sounds very suspicious, is possible that after years of using and studying Magic Marisa has become a youkai maybe whitout fully realizing that herself ? Also her title in touhou 3 and 4,"A Being made of Magic and Red Dream", sounds like to suggest that she was something non-human even then (if you treat the pc-98 as Canon), what do you think about it ?

She's very explicitly human, and her title in FS is mostly a joke. The PC-98 stuff isn't a very useful reference either since ZUN hadn't really started thinking about worldbuilding at that pont.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: gilde on February 12, 2016, 12:11:09 am
  • Is Junko the Mother of Suns? Or is that Changxi? Dijun had two wives and 10 sons. Or is the Mother of Sons none of two? What is going on?
  • If Junko is somehow filled with hate and grudge due to losing her "sons", wouldn't that have been at the time her sons got shot down?
  • Dijun already punished Houyi for this by stripping his "god status". Even though I would assume Junko to be unpleased with this and kept her grudge for murdering her sons.
  • Jouga gained immortal life due to the elixer. And Houyi died I assume.

Does this mean Junko always had a grudge on Houyi and everything he related to? Would this indicate that as Houyi died, she moved her hate/grudge to Jouga, who actually should've been mortal but became immortal? So it is like eternal shoved blame on Jouga?

ZUN took several figures named "Hou Yi" and combined them, is the thing.


I try to avoid making super definitive statements, but I think it's pretty obvious that Junko is Chun Hu; their names are even identical save for what language you read the kanji in. Her connection to Chang'e comes from the fact that ZUN mashed the two Hou Yis together.

(Note that conflating the two Hou Yis, or the other people involved in their stories, isn't a ZUN invention in itself. In fact there's even a Chinese academic paper (http://www.nssd.org/articles/article_detail.aspx?id=24734556) analyzing and comparing the various accounts.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on February 12, 2016, 06:55:10 am
Canon-wise, how is Momiji's attitude? For some reason I get the impression that she acts highly professional and that if you have no business with her she'll be quite aloof with you.
Momiji is one of the vaguest characters personality wise. She seems really aggressive imo, but that's about it.
Do whatever you want. I guess.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on February 12, 2016, 11:08:08 am
Well, there's this (http://i.imgur.com/Qyehl6e.png) thing.
ZUN took several figures named "Hou Yi" and combined them, is the thing.

  • There's the mythological Yi (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%BE%BF_(%E5%94%90%E5%A0%AF)) who shot down the suns and was married to Chang'e; the sun thing is where Hecatia's grudge comes from, but it has nothing to do with the person Junko is based on.
  • There's also the Xia dynasty ruler named Hou Yi (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%90%8E%E7%BE%BF_(%E5%A4%8F%E6%9C%9D)), who married a woman named Chun Hu (纯狐), killed the son they had together, and was murdered in a conspiracy between Chun Hu and a minister. The accounts involving this Yi have no relation to Chang'e.

I try to avoid making super definitive statements, but I think it's pretty obvious that Junko is Chun Hu; their names are even identical save for what language you read the kanji in. Her connection to Chang'e comes from the fact that ZUN mashed the two Hou Yis together.

(Note that conflating the two Hou Yis, or the other people involved in their stories, isn't a ZUN invention in itself. In fact there's even a Chinese academic paper (http://www.nssd.org/articles/article_detail.aspx?id=24734556) analyzing and comparing the various accounts.)
Your two posts seem to connect (the screenshot + the explanation) and makes it more clear. Thanks.

So if I am not mistaking or confusing: the story I read on that wiki isn't the Hou Yi being related to LoLK?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on February 12, 2016, 03:45:34 pm
Canon-wise, how is Momiji's attitude? For some reason I get the impression that she acts highly professional and that if you have no business with her she'll be quite aloof with you.
She hates Aya, 'nuff said.

And I think I asked this before, but anyway...  Are there any fan works that actually portray Hisou Tensoku as what it actually is, a balloon?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: commandercool on February 14, 2016, 10:21:43 pm
Sorry if this has been covered before, but if it has I couldn't really find it.

Anyway, how it Marisa's name pronounced? Most people seem to pronounce it as a homonym of "Marissa", but it's my understanding that it's pronounced with a long e (Mareesa). Which, if either, is right?

Marisa is a slightly less common name than Marissa, but it is a real name. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be total consistency among how people with that name pronounce it, so that doesn't help a ton. At least some people named Marisa seem to make a distinction between the two names, anyway,
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on February 14, 2016, 10:39:15 pm
Anyway, how it Marisa's name pronounced? Most people seem to pronounce it as a homonym of "Marissa", but it's my understanding that it's pronounced with a long e (Mareesa). Which, if either, is right?
Her Japanese pronunciation has all short syllables, with emphasis on the first one, MAH-ry-sah (-ɾi-sɑ). The closest pronunciation that makes sense in English would have to be muh-RI-suh (mə--sə).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on February 14, 2016, 11:44:01 pm
http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/4/43/Pronunciation_MarisaKirisame.ogg
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on February 16, 2016, 12:15:00 am
One question here, but in the start of a Danmaku duel in general,
Like Rumia vs Cirno for example, fair enough?
How does the Spell Card Rules decide who 'spams bullets' and who 'dodges bullets'?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Starxsword on February 16, 2016, 12:53:04 am
I don't think there are such rules. Either one can spam or dodge bullets.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on February 16, 2016, 01:44:25 am
Yeah, that's just for gameplay sake, I think.

Actual danmaku battles seem to have more to do with the fighting games, going by SSiB.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on February 16, 2016, 02:11:11 am
Okay, then how about battling against someone who can't use Danmaku.

Because after reading Touhou fanfics, I'm starting to think, for example, protagonist thrown into Gensokyo, accidentally pissed off somebody, got himself into a Danmaku battle in which protagonist don't even know how it works, or how to fire one, and gets rekt even if it's not his fault in the first place, doesn't make sense for the Spell Card Rules.

Then again, it's fanfiction so I can't blame the writer, except for making me stuck thinking of this crap.  :colonveeplusalpha:
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on February 16, 2016, 04:34:07 am
Any link to that unused picture of Kana with a stop sign?  I'm adding that piece of trivia to the Wiki, and I need the source pic as proof.  I remember someone posting a link to an old ZUN website that shows this before here.

Thanks in advance!

Because after reading Touhou fanfics, I'm starting to think, for example, protagonist thrown into Gensokyo, accidentally pissed off somebody, got himself into a Danmaku battle in which protagonist don't even know how it works, or how to fire one, and gets rekt even if it's not his fault in the first place, doesn't make sense for the Spell Card Rules.
I feel like crying every time I see an "OC goes to Gensokyo" fic, even more so if Yukari gapped the OC there.  :qq:

Where is the originality...?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 16, 2016, 05:32:10 am
Danmaku is easy. Apparently not everyone can toss danmaku, but it's meant to be so easy that pretty much anyone can do it. Because it's a method of conflict resolution, the rules are going to be explained and whatnot beforehand. You aren't going to force someone into a game without explaining the rules... although really due to the nature of danmaku you don't really need to be in a duel to attack someone with it. They're just going to get wrecked.

Any link to that unused picture of Kana with a stop sign?  I'm adding that piece of trivia to the Wiki, and I need the source pic as proof.  I remember someone posting a link to an old ZUN website that shows this before here.
You're referring to this post:

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13761.msg911943.html#msg911943

However, he never actually published a picture of Kana like this as far as I can recall.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on February 16, 2016, 07:45:02 am
Didn't stop people from using it often in fan arts, though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 16, 2016, 07:46:04 am
Yeah, just saying that I don't think there's an "unused picture" like you suggested.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on February 16, 2016, 07:47:57 am
I remember seeing one...  Must've mistaken a piece of ZUN-style fan art for it or thought I saw one...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Starxsword on February 17, 2016, 05:47:09 am
Quote
Okay, then how about battling against someone who can't use Danmaku.

Because after reading Touhou fanfics, I'm starting to think, for example, protagonist thrown into Gensokyo, accidentally pissed off somebody, got himself into a Danmaku battle in which protagonist don't even know how it works, or how to fire one, and gets rekt even if it's not his fault in the first place, doesn't make sense for the Spell Card Rules.

Then again, it's fanfiction so I can't blame the writer, except for making me stuck thinking of this crap.  :colonveeplusalpha:

They don't do that. Touhou characters will explain spell card rules to whoever they want to battle with.
Spell Card rules is a game with both players agreeing to it.

That said, it is wise to challenge Youkai to a spell card duel if they catch you. If you don't, odds are, they will just outright kill you.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 18, 2016, 02:38:07 pm
What's the wiki's policy about spoilers? If i wanted to add Yukari's role in LoLK to her profile, how much should i wait before it isn't considered spoiler anymore?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on February 18, 2016, 02:39:58 pm
Pretty sure you can spoilerize text on the wiki, too.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on February 18, 2016, 09:34:14 pm
ZUN made SoEW with MIDI music, and I want to transcribe the rest of the PC-98 games' music to MIDI. PoDD and LLS were gonna have MIDI, as a hidden option shows. But how would I make their music MIDI?

Is there a free PMD to MIDI software I can use? Or a MPT to MIDI software I can use (for HRtP)?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Failure McFailFace on February 18, 2016, 11:23:45 pm
There's some PC-98 MIDIs here (http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/html/music_old.html) on ZUN's old site. It's not all of the songs, though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on February 19, 2016, 01:15:45 am
I know that, but I want to transcribe the PMD files themselves to MIDI.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Starxsword on February 19, 2016, 03:58:47 am
Yukari had a role in Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on February 19, 2016, 04:54:58 am
She appears in Marisa's ending to give some cryptic commentary.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on February 19, 2016, 11:45:59 am
What's the wiki's policy about spoilers? If i wanted to add Yukari's role in LoLK to her profile, how much should i wait before it isn't considered spoiler anymore?
If it is something being spoiled in the ending of the story, don't. I believe the wiki standard follows ZUN's wish which was something along the lines of: "Don't post endings and such" (someone correct me if I am mistaking). This includes screens, dialogues or narrative text.


Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on February 26, 2016, 02:57:28 am
So why would Alice Soft sue ZUN Soft for a character portrait in PoDD? Are we talking about Marisa's? That's similar to some nurse portrait from a PC-98 game. I don't know if it's Alice Soft or not.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 26, 2016, 03:25:31 am
Your wording is a bit confusing but tracing was extremely common in the 90's. They wouldn't bother suing a doujin dev.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on February 27, 2016, 12:29:06 am
Your wording is a bit confusing but tracing was extremely common in the 90's. They wouldn't bother suing a doujin dev.
Nobody even played the PC-98 games back when they came out.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on February 27, 2016, 02:27:04 am
Nobody even played the PC-98 games back when they came out.

LLS sold around 300 copies at Comiket despite being made for a dying platform. That was back when the average low profile doujin game release sold less than 100 copies at Comiket. The other games probably didn't do much worse.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on February 29, 2016, 12:51:47 pm
Hello there! I don't know if this is the right thread to do this but I want to ask you guys about the wiki's translation.

Does adding "!" instead of "~" OR when there isn't one in the original, really change the tone of the speaker from the original that much?

Why I'm asking this? Well, a certain arrogant Japanese-expert douchebag, who is an admin and translator of my country's Touhou Wiki, often scoffs at your laborious work of translation. He says something like "Western's translation sucks/is unreliable because the translator often put "!" in the translation (games/books/mangas) when there isn't one in the original completely changing the tone of the speaker. Therefore, our wiki is better/more unreliable." Also, I heard that he also derides about our translation in FS Chapter 25.

To give you the example of the point he is trying to make. Here is the Japanese transcript of Kasen's dialogue from Reimu's ULiL Prologue scenario.

ふん
とぼけたって無駄よ

And here is the ULiL's English patch version.

Hmf.
It's no use playing dumb!

I think he is trying to say that in the original, Kasen speaks in a normal/calm/confident tone but in our English patch, Kasen is a lot more aggressive as if she was angry with Reimu because we add the !. These differences may change our understanding of Kasen’s personality and therefore we may add false overview for Kasen’s character (Ex. Kasen often speak aggressively) and therefore make the wiki unreliable.

So, does this guy's reasoning sounds stupid? Does adding "!" instead of "~" OR when there isn't one in the original, really change the tone of the speaker from the original that much?

That's all I want to ask. Sorry for the long description or if this question sounds stupid or my rant disturbs any of you guys. It just that while I can understand criticisms about its mistranslations, I cannot really stand any insult (like sucks or unreliable) to the Touhou Wiki or to the western folks at all, even if it comes from my country's folks. To me, even though I am not a westerner, this place and Touhou Wiki feels sort of like my internet home for a long time so these insults have severely rubbed me the wrong way.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on February 29, 2016, 02:45:07 pm
Well, first of all ~ is really stupid in English and I can't think of any reason to use it.

As for the exclamation marks, I can see his point, although I believe the idea behind that particular line was that よ was making it somewhat forceful, and that may not be properly conveyed with just a period. In my personal opinion, Japanese is a lot more conservative with exclamation marks than English language comics, so I'll often add them for what I consider a forceful line. On the other hand, maybe I just personally overuse them.

For the record though, I don't think there's any need for you to feel offended on behalf of the translators. There are a lot of problems in a lot of the translations (especially the older ones), and personally I would welcome constructive criticism. What exactly was the problem with FS 25 though? I can think of several things.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 29, 2016, 08:37:17 pm
I agree with Clarste pointing out that because Japanese has various particles for emphasis there's often no need for them to add exclamation marks besides stylistically, and considering English is basically just implicit phrasing and punctuation, it can be difficult to directly communicate the feel of a phrase in translation. Especially so when there isn't also facial expressions or voice to go along with it. Arguing as though you should only put an exclamation where there's one in Japanese is definitely wrong. However, I agree that exclamation marks might not always be the best method to communicate some stressed lines, and I know I've translated lines without adding any. In this one case I'd agree one isn't needed. However however, nitpicking how characters sound with particular lines that aren't even necessarily important dialogue is way, way off the mark out of things that should be addressed in Touhou translations, and bringing up a line of dialogue like this one is suspect because it suggests there's nothing better to argue about.

Anyways, I really hope they aren't saying the line would change our understanding of Kasen's character, because it's Reimu's line.

FS 25 is hard to address at all largely because Japan doesn't have a consistent interpretation of the chapter either; it is very polarizing and full of new things to think about. Many comments made about that chapter I can think of wouldn't be fair to translators and potentially is just trying to parade your own understanding of the chapter.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: andykhang on March 01, 2016, 11:58:48 am
As you know,Tenshi's Sword of Hisou (or Sword of Scarlet Perception) have the ability to " change itself to channel the most effective attributes to counter that nature" (-Touhou Wiki). Basically (to my understanding) , it can shapeshift into many other form of weapon that's suit to deal with any sort of opponent. Tell me if I'm right first, because if I'm right... why there hasn't be any art that draw Tenshi's sword into other form of weapon? (really, i can't seem to find it taking the form of the others major weapon of Ancient Chinese that Jian (sword) is apart of: Gun (staff), Qiang (spear) or Dao (sabre). Not to mention the others weapon like gun, halberd, mace, etc...)

Could be that i haven't search enough though, but did the community truly lacked that much creativity, or i misunderstand something here?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on March 01, 2016, 12:25:23 pm
ー is also another thing which is often translated in various forms. I don't think it is even possible to give the same feeling in English since it is a language specific thing.

I do remember some people see ~ as ー but with a 'playful' tone to it. I don't think that is correct, right? The ~ can be stuck behind anything, doesn't needs to involve extension of the character?

Example: ごめん~

Or is the ~ just stupid and should be avoided at all costs?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on March 01, 2016, 12:26:58 pm
Uh, i always thought that property-changing ability was something like changing the type of damage it would deal, rather than the actual shape.  For example, if Tenshi fought Cirno it would deal heat/fire damage, while against a lunarian it would become something super-impure like Clownpiece.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 01, 2016, 12:33:35 pm
I feel like ending a line with ~ is the same sort of thing as including a heart or music note in the text bubble. It's not a specific phonetic marker, but implies a playful tone that may involve dragging certain syllables out. It's a voice, and there's no English equivalent other than trying to word the line in a sufficiently playful manner.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on March 01, 2016, 12:42:07 pm
The reason why I ask this is because in my own game I let the translation occur from EN to JP (instead other way around). The TL was handled by a native JP person. I trust of course his TL and not intending to nitpick it, though I was curious in general since the case raised was interesting. Thank you Kageshirou for the case and thank you Clarste & Drake for the explanation.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: andykhang on March 01, 2016, 01:00:29 pm
Yeah, but it could shapeshift itself too, and couple with the above, it's not too unreasonable to think that it could change at least into other ancient form of weapon.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on March 01, 2016, 01:24:37 pm
In most of the art I've seen, it's not even really a sword... it's more like a handle with fire shooting out of it, the fire being the "blade". Fire is shapeless, of course. I'd assume when it "changes shape" it's more like changing how far the fire reaches, or how wide the flame is.

Of course, I've never heard of this shape shifting thing until now so I completely made that up, it's just the first explanation I thought of when I saw it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on March 01, 2016, 01:25:53 pm
Clarste: Thank you for your explanation and advice. Nevertheless, I will try my best to make the Touhou Wiki a reliable source once again.

Drake: Oops, I messed up. I meant to says that the dialogue was Reimu's. :blush:

Helepolis: It's my pleasure to help you guys. Also, I'm much more happier to be here. My country's touhou wiki community is a complete idiot. They are biased against you western folks and will occasionally bring up discussions (and often mock us) about our Wiki translation whenever they can. They are also hypocrites; they say that westerner's translation is unreliable but their wiki also tends to be missing in translation/ or worse mistranslated. I don't like such behaviors at all. Even then, the translation, notes, observation there are very good and interesting so I could add them to our wiki or share with you guys. Again, It's my pleasure to help you guys.


Anyway, continuing from the above, there is nothing wrong in the chapter itself EXCEPT one thing that also appears everywhere else in the Touhou Wiki’s translation; the use of the word “Extermination” (as in Youkai Extermination) This is also what that guy has been complaining about our translation, aside from the exclamation marks.

The following is the post made in one of his announcements from his wiki and I have translated those word for word for you guys. You may take his words as a grain of salt.

 “About the “killing” in FS Chapter 25”

“This chapter has been widely regarded as the first “killing” that appears in the Touhou stories. Moreover, the killing is done by the main protagonist Reimu. However, I think that this actually results from mistranslation and misinterpretation. Even though in the chapter prior to the battle, there is a conversation about “to kill (殺) wastefully” but in the end, Reimu stills says as always “If it is a Youkai, I must subjugate (退治) it.” The word 退治 can be translated literally in English as “Extermination” so does that mean Reimu completely annihilate the youkai? The answer is no, not at all. Rather, the word should be translated as “to subjugate” because no matter how many times Reimu use “this exact word” (He means “退治”, btw) in fighting the Youkai in any of Touhou stories, none has ever “died.” If you tell me that this word means killing, the Touhou characters would now have only Reimu and Marisa. (Laugh) Ah, I forgot that Mokou, Kaguya and Eirin cannot die. XD"

“Yes, in the manga, the youkai seems to be completely beaten but if you remember, PMiSS has stated about the youkai’s characteristic as this”

(This is his translation, not from our Wiki)
•   Youkai have stronger bodies than humans, so even if they're split into small pieces, they will return to normal soon.
•   Youkai are more easily affected by belief than humans, and as a result, spiritual damage can result in their death.

"There is also another way; Stop believing that Youkai exists (Ex. Telling people that it is not Youkai that they see, rather it is a natural phenomenon."

"As a result, regarding this matter, I stand firmly on my belief that “Reimu just subjugate that Jinyou, not killing” However, if it is up to the other Touhou fans to decide what actually happens. I won’t intrude upon that matter as I do the translation part only.”


TL;DR He is suggesting that Reimu didn’t kill the Jinyou for two reasons:
1.   退治 in Touhou stories means subjugation not killing, which is the translation that appears everywhere in our Wiki. That’s why we believe that Reimu really kill the jinyou.
2.   The Jinyou is seen getting his head split by Reimu. However, according to the information about Youkai in PMiSS, he will return soon.

What do you think of all this?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 01, 2016, 01:48:10 pm
I don't think subjugation is really the correct word either, but I agree that I've often felt restrained by preexisting translations of important terminology like 退治 and 異変 ("incident"). However, in this case I think the fact that she uses the same word she always uses is precisely the point, and as he mentions no one ever dies from it (except in chapter 37 where someone totally dies from it, there's even a funeral and everything). In that sense, anyone who's familiar with Touhou should know that extermination is used in a non-literal sense as part of the "show" that she puts on of humans fighting youkai, a "show" that's mentioned several times throughout the series. Heck, the whole point of danmaku is to pretend to have fights to the death, complete with pre-battle banter that can be especially vicious with threats to eat people and whatnot. Needless to say, despite Remilia's dialog in EoSD Sakuya is still alive. I don't think changing the translation of 退治 in that line or anywhere would actually change people's opinions on what happened, since as you say his head was clearly split open, and frankly that's more of what people are reacting to. I doubt they even care about the line coming right before it. In fact, I know they don't because the fandom reaction to this "death" began from untranslated, out of context images of the panel.

It should also be noted that Reimu is the sort of person who describes Setsubun as a "Genocide Game". And, you know, the "I don't especially mind needless killing" line from the same chapter.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on March 01, 2016, 01:56:11 pm
"As a result, regarding this matter, I stand firmly on my belief that “Reimu just subjugate that Jinyou, not killing” However, if it is up to the other Touhou fans to decide what actually happens. I won’t intrude upon that matter as I do the translation part only.”
Problems with that:
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 01, 2016, 01:59:05 pm
That is a completely and utterly wrong complaint about the current use of "extermination", as it should be obvious to anyone who pays even the slightest attention that the use of "extermination" is a word that seems overly violent for what is referring to the reality of "whatever shenanigans (or nothing at all) the youkai (or anything else) was up to was stopped". It is used both consistently in this way, and uniquely in this way. This is not just a quirk of our translation, but rather is fundamentally a part of the term 退治 in the first place. It takes on the same flavour in Japanese, where it's a gross exaggeration of reality originating from how youkai were reportedly "exterminated" more aggressively in the past due to human-youkai relations, and such practice has since settled into its modern day version in Gensokyo. Nobody should be thinking that the use of the term 退治/exterminate implies that they were eradicated.

Heck, even the head split isn't technically all that important, since yes, youkai bodies are resilient; the more important part was that violence was displayed and suggested to be significant in the first place. Plus it's already established Reimu has silly powers and would be using a "spiritual attack" despite striking physically. Probably the most weighty factor plot-wise here was Reimu's insistence that the Jinyou's existence itself was a danger to Gensokyo, and she aimed to confront it despite them not wanting to cause any harm or do anything besides leave the Human Village and bum around by themselves. If the Jinyou was actually that much of a problem, simply defeating them and then letting them eventually reform and leave (uh exactly as they wanted) makes no sense whatsoever. Additionally, it isn't even the first occurrence of an actual youkai eradication in FS either, as it's implied Marisa destroyed the kutsutsura (somehow) before it could become a full youkai.

That commentary also ignores entirely that Japan is just as dumbstruck as everyone else on the planet and have inconsistent and muddled interpretations of the chapter. This is exactly what I expected when I said people will try to parade their own understanding of its events.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 01, 2016, 02:08:41 pm
Also, Reimu must really strong to split someone's head open with a purely physical attack with a wooden stick. ::)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: andykhang on March 01, 2016, 02:25:01 pm
How do you think Tenshi pulled it out of thin air then? It's thank to it ability of shapeshifting that Tenshi could hide it in her body.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hope ♦ Metal on March 01, 2016, 07:14:58 pm
How do you think Tenshi pulled it out of thin air then? It's thank to it ability of shapeshifting that Tenshi could hide it in her body.
It's 2016 and you're still not materializing your weapons from psychic energy? casual

Also, from which part of her body would she pull it out of?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 01, 2016, 07:20:53 pm
It's basically a lightsaber. I assume she keeps the hilt in her pocket.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on March 01, 2016, 07:29:08 pm
- Please let us not type ambigious or vague topic titles. You could just write: "question about Tenshi's sword, it is strange." Right now it is too generic.
- Also, imo, this is a Misc question which belongs in the sticky. I will merge it there soon. So this is a notice.


Uh, i always thought that property-changing ability was something like changing the type of damage it would deal, rather than the actual shape.  For example, if Tenshi fought Cirno it would deal heat/fire damage, while against a lunarian it would become something super-impure like Clownpiece.
Yeah, but it could shapeshift itself too, and couple with the above, it's not too unreasonable to think that it could change at least into other ancient form of weapon.
It doesn't shape shift. It is exactly as PK said, the sword "reads"the spirit from the opponent and "analyses" it. Then it is able to change its "spiritual attribute" to exploit the weakness of the said spirit. The sword doesn't emit flames. The ability that the sword has makes it look flexible due to the "weather like" form. It remains a sword. Wiki claims it is a golden Chinese jian when the ability is not invoked.

It's basically a lightsaber. I assume she keeps the hilt in her pocket.
Use the force, Chiko.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Starxsword on March 02, 2016, 05:38:05 am
Quote
it can shapeshift into many other form of weapon that's suit to deal with any sort of opponent. Tell me if I'm right first, because if I'm right... why there hasn't be any art that draw Tenshi's sword into other form of weapon? (really, i can't seem to find it taking the form of the others major weapon of Ancient Chinese that Jian (sword) is apart of: Gun (staff), Qiang (spear) or Dao (sabre). Not to mention the others weapon like gun, halberd, mace, etc...)

There's a music video with Tenshi changing that sword to a microphone. So, it isn't like fanworks haven't thought of the sword transforming.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on March 02, 2016, 07:42:18 am
Yeah, but it could shapeshift itself too, and couple with the above, it's not too unreasonable to think that it could change at least into other ancient form of weapon.

Uh... Yes, it IS quite unreasonable. I mean, ever thought about why it's called the SWORD of Hisou?

And don't even get started about her pulling it out of thin air before explaining where Marisa hides her broom.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 02, 2016, 07:50:48 am
magic tho
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 02, 2016, 11:37:39 pm
What was the prize Chiyuri wrote about on the flier in PoDD?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 03, 2016, 06:28:39 am
She made it up as a trap, and hadn't planned that far ahead, so the answer is nothing. Yumemi grants the player's wish using ~science~ in the endings.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 04, 2016, 12:59:43 am
She made it up as a trap, and hadn't planned that far ahead, so the answer is nothing. Yumemi grants the player's wish using ~science~ in the endings.
It could also be read as "Those of you who visit the ruins, we will grant you a wish and make you happy"
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Jana on March 04, 2016, 03:33:01 am
That is what it was meant to be read as, Yumemi was trying to trap magic-users to take home as proof of her theories. If she loses then she uses some science to make the winning character's wish come true, as Drake said.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Fulisha of Light on March 04, 2016, 05:49:27 am
Had a few other questions and my first one wasn't answered:

Towards the end of PCB (stage 6), did Yuyuko vanish when the Saigyou Ayakashi attacked the heroine? And did Yuyuko become aware that her soul was the one sealing the Saigyou Ayakashi?

Can Remilia and Flandre's bites turn people into vampires?

What font does ZUN use for the Enemy Status? In other words, the boss' name that has the # of health bars below it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 04, 2016, 08:11:02 am
I don't really think it's clear what happened at the end of PCB. It also isn't mentioned afterwards, but it's hard to imagine Yuyuko not knowing if that occurrence is explained to her later. It's also written right in PMiSS that her body is there sealing it, and since it exists as an in-universe document, she probably knows. I guess.

According to PMiSS, a human bitten by a vampire will turn into a zombie and evaporate under sunlight. However, we can't really verify that claim as it's the only time it's mentioned.

From which game? MoF up to DDC have the pixel font, which I assume is what you mean. Honestly since it's a pixel font you could probably just draw it out, and I suspect ZUN actually made it himself by taking another font, scaling it down then cleaning it up a bit. What do you need it for?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 04, 2016, 08:42:38 am
According to PMiSS, a human bitten by a vampire will turn into a zombie and evaporate under sunlight. However, we can't really verify that claim as it's the only time it's mentioned.

Remilia's profile in EoSD specifically says that she'll never be able to increase her own kind because she's too light an eater to drink enough blood to kill someone. While ZUN's not adverse to contradicting early worldbuilding, the implication is obviously that vampires come from people whose blood has been sucked dry.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on March 04, 2016, 10:35:42 am
The vampire thing is always going to be tricky. Vampire mythology is so broad and contradictory that we can't even infer things about Remilia and Flandre's vampire Do's and Don't's that are not specifically spelled out by ZUN, such as the feeding example.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Fulisha of Light on March 05, 2016, 08:34:42 am
I don't really think it's clear what happened at the end of PCB. It also isn't mentioned afterwards, but it's hard to imagine Yuyuko not knowing if that occurrence is explained to her later. It's also written right in PMiSS that her body is there sealing it, and since it exists as an in-universe document, she probably knows. I guess.

According to PMiSS, a human bitten by a vampire will turn into a zombie and evaporate under sunlight. However, we can't really verify that claim as it's the only time it's mentioned.

From which game? MoF up to DDC have the pixel font, which I assume is what you mean. Honestly since it's a pixel font you could probably just draw it out, and I suspect ZUN actually made it himself by taking another font, scaling it down then cleaning it up a bit. What do you need it for?

Yes, the ones from MoF to DDC. Need it for game-related stuff.
I could just take any font and scale it down, but it's really difficult to get them to match up exactly, and get other letters such as C to look like they go with the font.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on March 05, 2016, 10:09:39 am
I had some exposure yesterday of PC98 and Windows series and was wondering suddenly a lot about Marisa and Reimu and their relationship. Sure, they have battled and rivalled. I mean, Marisa was completely unknown and loyal to Mima in SoeW. Her character is also completely different based on her dialogue. More wicked but just as confident.

So how deep does Reimu and Marisa's relationship go? Which official work gives an understanding in this?

In FS and WaHH we can clearly see that both Reimu and Marisa are keen to keep the peace and balance as main characters (as seen in the games too). There is some sort of romance between those two (not in a love way). But I compare it a bit to Oda's phrase when he mentioned the romance in the Mugiwara crew. Romance for adventure and pursuing their dreams.

Feel free to advise me work to read. I read a few but they all feel so vague, probably because I didn't pay enough attention or wasn't really aware in general. So I wouldn't mind rereading it more carefully a second or third time.

Also, why is Marisa breaking the 4th wall along with Reimu in trial of SoEW!? !? !? (Because they obviously can)

------

Also to ask about the former the former discussion with the exclamation mark and such. For example this line from SoeW when Reimu & Genji encounters Marisa:
Genji JP > 御主人様、冷静に、 敵はかなり 手強いですぞ。
Genji EN > M'lady, control yourself! She is a formidable opponent.


Can I guess that the exclamation mark here is questionable as Genji addresses Reimu as "Master" with heavy formality. I doubt he would shout at her as some sort of teacher. Then again it could be alerting due to being protective.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on March 05, 2016, 10:26:59 am
Its never directly stated, but i'm pretty sure (actually im not sure at all but i hope im sure!) that FS shows them as pretty close friends. They are not in love, not matter how much shippers wish they were.
Yukari and Yuyu are totally lovers thou.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 05, 2016, 11:00:09 am
I haven't read them in a long time, but I feel like CoLA might be the only work that's dug into their relationship at all (although not all that much). Basically they're childhood friends.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on March 05, 2016, 01:10:57 pm
i'd say they are friendly rivals.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 05, 2016, 08:36:22 pm
What's on the paper manuals of the PC-98 games?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on March 05, 2016, 08:40:52 pm
Being friendly rivals can be confirmed through out the games. If we have to go by the dialogues so far, their bitching is happening quite often in the games. Well I call it bitching, but it is just like old guy said. Except in FS / WaHH this seems bit more toned down.

Guess I'll dive into CoLA again the upcoming days.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 06, 2016, 01:13:11 am
Yes, the ones from MoF to DDC. Need it for game-related stuff.
I could just take any font and scale it down, but it's really difficult to get them to match up exactly, and get other letters such as C to look like they go with the font.
I understand that, but if I'm right and he cleaned it up to pixels himself, the best you're ever going to do is approximate or rip anyways. Note that you should be able to take characters from the existing names. Uppercase C is available from "Continue" (although it's resized) and lowercase from "Ichirin", for example.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on March 06, 2016, 05:42:44 am
Any idea what this is about? It's kinda looks interesting.

http://news.9129suppon.com/archives/1053123955.html
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on March 13, 2016, 06:38:47 am
So this is less of a question and more of a feedback request, but I tried making a personal translation of the tracklist of Koumajou Densetsu 2's OST. Now bear in mind that I practically do not speak a lick of Japanese, so what I did was pretty much put the track titles in jisho.org and try making sense of the word-by-word translation, so some of the results may make you want to shove Gungnir up my ass. Anyway, the original tracklist can be found here (http://vgmdb.net/album/24330) and my translation attempts are as follows (denoted by disc and track number, repeat titles won't be mentioned):
1-6. Castle Lord of Heartwarming Crimson/The Beautiful Scarlet Lord of the Castle (conflicting known prior translations, went with the former for now.)
1-9. Cherry Blossom Flash (mostly confident on this one.)
1-10. The Stolen Great Library (somewhat confident on this one since I'm familiar with Castlevania Order of Ecclesia's Japanese subtitle, Ubawareta Kokuin = The Stolen Seal.)
1-11. Shooting Star of Magical Bullets (kinda iffy on this one.)
1-13. Shrine Maiden of Heaven and Earth/Divine Shrine Maiden (direct translation/localization, reference to Castlevania's Bloodlines AKA Richter Belmont's theme.)
1-15. Perverse Madness (this one's kind of a toss-up.)
1-16. Binding of the Heart (kinda unsure on this one.)
1-17. Corpse Channeling (really unsure on this one, even with jisho.org I can only barely make sense of this one. :V)
1-18. Silence (known prior translation.)
1-19. Stained Mist Amnesia (somewhat confident on this one.)
1-20. Rose-Killing Carmilla (known translation, mostly confident on this one.)
2-06. Purple Reason (ahaha FML, jisho.org barely gave me anything to work with. :V)
So yeah, please correct me if there's anything particularly wrong.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: SlimeKid on March 16, 2016, 03:48:36 pm
Not exactly sure if this has been answered before or not, but I read up and noticed that Remilia has the power to manipulate fate. Are there any instances in which she uses this power?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on March 16, 2016, 05:09:59 pm
No definite cases are known, only speculations. What's more, even how her ability works is nothing but speculations.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 16, 2016, 09:38:45 pm
Remember: powers are self-declared (confirmed by Akyu in Futo's article). In other words, the powers people have listed on their profiles are just whatever they thought would sound coolest, and may not have any correlation with reality. In that sense, it tells us more about their personality than their abilities, although of course some people are just honest and straightforward.

As for Remilia's fate manipulation, the closest thing we have to an example is Akyu's speculation that she changed Sakuya's fate from "vampire hunter" to "maid" by giving her a new name. Again, that's pure speculation, but I think it might give an idea of the kind of thing that someone in Gensokyo (Akyu) would think of as fate manipulation.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Bicè- on March 16, 2016, 10:27:29 pm
A question for the veteran Danmakufu scripters: when there were no tutorials around, how have you learned how to create scripts?

Nice English btw...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 17, 2016, 03:41:28 am
Even when 0.12m had no-to-few tutorials the official documentation still existed.

That being said, tasks and microthreads were not very well-understood by our community as most users were young and not very experienced with those concepts. Most early scripts centered around setting up almost everything in MainLoop and using timer variables and flags for everything. This is what some older members refer to when people say "mainloop-style scripting", which honestly shouldn't even exist.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on March 17, 2016, 04:29:44 am
I'm not a veteran, but I've never looked at a tutorial personally. I learned by copy-pasting other people's scripts and changing things here and there until I figured out what the functions did. And asking people lots of questions.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on March 17, 2016, 12:04:47 pm
- Lots of asking questions
- Lots of looking at other people's work > copypaste > change things to see/learn results
- Lots of self discovery

I remember when I dared my own custom spell card attack! effects  and had to learn some mysterious things which was rarely used back then.

That being said, tasks and microthreads were not very well-understood by our community as most users were young and not very experienced with those concepts. Most early scripts centered around setting up almost everything in MainLoop and using timer variables and flags for everything. This is what some older members refer to when people say "mainloop-style scripting", which honestly shouldn't even exist.
Ye pretty much, even I started with the @MainLoop. But for a very shot while as I quickly encountered an old 0.12 tutorial which was showing the tasking and microthreading method. Right here: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Danmakufu/Samples then ran into this tutorial / explanation:  http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Danmakufu/Syntax/Microthreads

I just blindly copied the examples until I realised the @MainLoop was never used at all except for few things (collision usually). I quickly adapted once I discovered how flexible it was in comparison to the mainloop. I personally never understood the tenacity of people who kept mainloop style scripting while microthreading isn't a huge step at all.

All my tutorials approach the microthreading method. Because it is most powerful and flexible.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on March 17, 2016, 03:48:41 pm
Would anyone have a time to count how many official Touhou soundtracks have been composed?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on March 17, 2016, 08:04:39 pm
Would anyone have a time to count how many official Touhou soundtracks have been composed?
Wouldn't you be able to elicit that information from the yearly popularity poll?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on March 17, 2016, 11:34:41 pm
Wouldn't you be able to elicit that information from the yearly popularity poll?
Didn't know that, I'll go check it out then.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on March 18, 2016, 01:02:40 am
Hello! It's been a while since I was last here but I'm here now with questions of sorts. My questions revolve around Yuyuko, her body, and the Saigyou Ayakashi, and possible things that could happen that could be used at material for a project. (So sorry if they are stupid questions)

What is Yuyuko's relasonship with Eiki Shiki? Yuyuko manages the Netherworld but its also the place where judged souls go depending on their sentence. Would this make Eiki Shiki her boss in a way?

I've read that Yuyuko's body is buried under the Saigyou Ayakashi, however in the game it's her soul that's used as a seal and not her body, is this a translation issue or is her body still buried and her soul is also used as a seal? Also what happened to them both after the events of PCB?

What happened to the Saigyou Ayakashi after PCB? Was it's killed or is it still sealed away?

Here's the weird questions... is there a type of youkai that is born from dead bodies? Like it inhabits it or the body become a new youkai with it's own thoughts or memories separate from the original body. Also is it possible for the spirit of the Saigyou Ayakashi to be reincarnated into a youkai or a person? Would their abilites kind of stay the same or do you think they would differ from their original bodies/form?

Extra: Also the theme for PCB stage 3, "ブクレシュティの人形師" is translated as "The Doll Maker of Bucuresti" but just been wondering why 人形師 is doll maker when 師 means Master or expert? Wouldn't it be more like The Doll Master of Bucuresti?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 18, 2016, 10:08:13 am
"What is Yuyuko's relasonship with Eiki Shiki? Yuyuko manages the Netherworld but its also the place where judged souls go depending on their sentence. Would this make Eiki Shiki her boss in a way?"
Explicitly so. The Yama is the one that appointed Yuyuko to manage the phantoms in the Netherworld.

"however in the game it's her soul that's used as a seal and not her body"
Can you recall where you're talking about?

The Saigyou Ayakashi still exists, and wasn't even fully unsealed, as Yuyuko can't actually unseal it herself. The closer she'd get to resurrecting herself, the more her existence as a ghost would disappear. Her final phase in PCB seems to be her beginning to disappear by trying to resurrect herself.

"Also the theme for PCB stage 3, "ブクレシュティの人形師" is translated as "The Doll Maker of Bucuresti" but just been wondering why 人形師 is doll maker when 師 means Master or expert? Wouldn't it be more like The Doll Master of Bucuresti?"
師 here would mean more like "specialist". You might also say "puppeteer", but the distinction here is hardly relevant as she does both anyway.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 18, 2016, 08:18:47 pm
Does anyone else cry when they hear Legend of Hourai, Mystic Dream, Soul's Resting Place, The Purest Sky and Sea, Mound of Life, and Mystic Maple? I know I do. They're just so melancholic.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on March 18, 2016, 11:07:52 pm
Does anyone else cry when they hear Legend of Hourai, Mystic Dream, Soul's Resting Place, The Purest Sky and Sea, Mound of Life, and Mystic Maple? I know I do. They're just so melancholic.
Yeah, I think it's only you being too over-expressive, not being rude but that's that. But I got to say Dolls in Pseudo Paradise and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil feels nostalgic
while Let's Live in a Lovely Cemetery is calm for a stage theme.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 19, 2016, 12:56:59 am
Yeah, I think it's only you being too over-expressive, not being rude but that's that. But I got to say Dolls in Pseudo Paradise and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil feels nostalgic
while Let's Live in a Lovely Cemetery is calm for a stage theme.
It's actually mainly Legend of Hourai now, along with Soul's Resting Place. I think Soul's Resting Place makes me cry because it's the last PC-98 song and Mima will disappear...and that being said I think Legend of Hourai makes me cry because it's one of the first themes in the Windows canon (though a music CD) and Mima won't come back...yeah...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on March 19, 2016, 08:22:44 pm
Can you recall where you're talking about?

The Saigyou Ayakashi still exists, and wasn't even fully unsealed, as Yuyuko can't actually unseal it herself. The closer she'd get to resurrecting herself, the more her existence as a ghost would disappear. Her final phase in PCB seems to be her beginning to disappear by trying to resurrect herself.

Sorry was reading on the Wiki to refresh my memory, that and the dialogue in the game is a bit cryptic for me to fully understand what is exactly happening.

To put things simply I'm working on a game with a friend and two characters we have need some form of backstory with their designs we have, I'm sure I can come up with something sooner or later but it seemed to just fit the designs is one was a youkai of Yuyukos body and one was a reincarnated Saigyou Ayakashi. I guess it sound kinda dumb but wanted to know what freedoms one would have with fanworks in relation to the actual lore of the games.

Quote
師 here would mean more like "specialist". You might also say "puppeteer", but the distinction here is hardly relevant as she does both anyway.

Ok wasn't sure why is was that way, I'm guessing its more of a combination of the two that makes it doll maker. So would it be master if 師 was by itself and not with 人形? (Self learning this stuff get hard lol.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 20, 2016, 03:05:20 am
It's just that words can have different connotations depending on how it's used, whether it's japanese or other languages. It'd probably be more of "mentor" by itself? But I'm not too confident in saying so.

The Saigyou Ayakashi is legitimately just a tree, and it killing people that sit under it is akin to Yuyuko's power of invoking death (well, really it's Yuyuko's ability that was thought up from the tree's legend). Its legend is related to people lying under the tree in bloom to die, so here it's written that the tree's power is reflected by it being in bloom, and sealing the tree stops it from blooming. "Reviving" the tree is really just getting it to bloom.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on March 20, 2016, 05:39:39 am
One question:
Can Yukari go back to the past using her Inter-Dimensional travel power? If no, is there anyone in Gensokyo can?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Moogs Parfait on March 20, 2016, 08:56:27 pm
Can someone explain the Lunarian concept of purity to me?  It seems about as vague as our modern "Terrorist"
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on March 21, 2016, 01:00:41 am
One question:
Can Yukari go back to the past using her Inter-Dimensional travel power? If no, is there anyone in Gensokyo can?
We don't know. Maribel has traveled through time, as we know from the Memorandum (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Memorandum) in PMiSS, and although it wasn't voluntary (probably; she did think she was dreaming, after all), it still shows she has the ability to do so. If Maribel really is Yukari (and everything points towards that), maybe Yukari learned how to do it at will, but we have no clue either way.

Other than her, no one else has shown the power to travel through time, iirc.

Can someone explain the Lunarian concept of purity to me?  It seems about as vague as our modern "Terrorist"
The wiki has a page on it (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Impurity). It's basically the same as the Shinto concept.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 21, 2016, 09:54:36 am
For what it's worth, there is no such thing as "purity", there is simply a specific metaphysical substance that they don't like. This seems to be the most common confusion. The substance is called "kegare" and in Touhou represents the cycle of life, ie: both life and death. Junko turned Clownpiece into pure impurity in LoLK, and that was not a contradiction in Japanese. The Lunarians plan to exist forever by never being exposed to life. Something that is not alive cannot die.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 21, 2016, 10:22:01 pm
I want a REAL copy of Phantasmagoria of Dim. Dream. I want it in the plastic bag with the instructions and the disk. Please, does someone have it, or is there a Yahoo Auctions link to it? I WANT PODD!  :ohdear: :(
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on March 21, 2016, 11:53:47 pm
I want a REAL copy of Phantasmagoria of Dim. Dream. I want it in the plastic bag with the instructions and the disk. Please, does someone have it, or is there a Yahoo Auctions link to it? I WANT PODD!  :ohdear: :(

Even if you CAN find one, its gonna very expensive. And on top of that you won't be able to play it with out a PC-98, which will be expensive and just as hard to get ahold of.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 22, 2016, 01:41:12 am
Even if you CAN find one, its gonna very expensive. And on top of that you won't be able to play it with out a PC-98, which will be expensive and just as hard to get ahold of.
I don't care about the PC-98 I just want it for the pictures. DOES ANYONE HAVE AN ACTUAL PODD COPY?!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 22, 2016, 07:28:41 am
you're like 13 there is no way you have the several hundreds of dollars to get a regular copy, never mind the over-thousand often listed for a full original set

i'm sure you realize these games barely even exist right

it's considered a special occasion for them to even show up in a shop because it means somebody sold theirs
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on March 22, 2016, 07:44:45 am
you're like 13 there is no way you have the several hundreds of dollars to get a regular copy, never mind the over-thousand often listed for a full original set
He's 13? I thought he was 25?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on March 22, 2016, 07:47:53 am
He's 13? I thought he was 25?

Profile says 13 Female but that's neither here nor there. To make it simple its gonna be next to impossible to get a physical copy. Next best thing is to use that PC-98 (emulator?) Found in the forum somewhere and play it there.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 22, 2016, 10:44:30 am
Uh they said they didn't really care about playing it though
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on March 22, 2016, 11:05:23 am
I don't care about the PC-98 I just want it for the pictures.
How is it possible for you to post a reply here again? Yes, Internet. So, if you just want pictures and not caring about the game, just Google them out so. No need to spend more time and money, especially when you're that young, sweetheart.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on March 22, 2016, 01:08:51 pm
I don't care about the PC-98 I just want it for the pictures. DOES ANYONE HAVE AN ACTUAL PODD COPY?!

Just to give you a sense of perspective, here (https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/21awxp/touhou_2_auctioned_at_anime_boston_2014_was_at/) is a copy of SoEW that went up for bidding at Anime Boston 2014. The winning bid? $820 USD.

You can likely find images of the hard copy of PoDD somewhere in Google Images. Dropping close to a grand just for pics is a bit excessive, even if you have the funds, which is doubtful.

I think this question can be safely put to rest.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 22, 2016, 03:56:25 pm
I want to see the instructions, the paper manual. What's on the paper manual?!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on March 22, 2016, 04:27:24 pm
I want to see the instructions, the paper manual. What's on the paper manual?!

Did you try Google (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Dim.Dream/Translation/Manual)? Seems a lot of your questions lately can be answered on the wiki, if they can be answered at all.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on March 22, 2016, 04:35:27 pm
Sit down for a bit and try organizing your thoughts before posting. You're making it sound like you're going crazy and yelling just to know what's on a sheet of paper which most of the time has nothing on it besides contact info, system requirements and basic installation instructions.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on March 22, 2016, 07:16:45 pm
Sit down for a bit and try organizing your thoughts before posting. You're making it sound like you're going crazy and yelling just to know what's on a sheet of paper which most of the time has nothing on it besides contact info, system requirements and basic installation instructions.
I know that part of the paper manual. But the first part. I think it's something about not letting kids watch TV too much and people who confuse anime with reality, and that part hasn't been on the wiki. Oh well.  :(
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on March 22, 2016, 07:21:52 pm
Maybe try and find where you heard that? Or get someone to translate the beginning text in the link I just gave you?

I mean, you ask for easily searchable stuff, or stuff without an answer. Neither are what this thread is for. If people seem frustrated that may be why. Take a few moments before you post - could save everyone a lot of time.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on March 22, 2016, 11:21:17 pm
Hey Mr. Janitor, I'm sure this happens a lot every year right? (Posting without thinking it through)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on March 23, 2016, 01:18:09 pm
Doesn't happen really often, as far as I've seen, no.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on March 24, 2016, 02:38:19 am
Profile says 13 Female but that's neither here nor there. To make it simple its gonna be next to impossible to get a physical copy. Next best thing is to use that PC-98 (emulator?) Found in the forum somewhere and play it there.
Oops, sorry. I wasn't paying attention. (Also sorry for misgendering her)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Ozzter on March 31, 2016, 05:38:01 pm
Ah, hello again.
I've been wondering things, not explicitly Touhou related, but kinda since it's about a type of youkai. Regarding tsukumogami, I know how they are spirits residing in objects, bringing them to life in a sense. Is the actual body of the tsukumogami just the spirit itself or the object it resides in as well? Would damaging the object itself cause any harm to the tsukumogami, or does the object possess youkai-like qualities where it cannot be harmed physically, and what would happen to the spirit if said object was destroyed ( unless, again, the object possesses youkai-like qualities where it can't decay and such )? I know how mistreatment of the object would anger the spirit in the first place, it's more in the sense of defending against them as in the Touhou games. Whether the answers are specific to the Touhou series or just in general I don't mind, these were just some things I was thinking about recently.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 31, 2016, 11:45:48 pm
The object is the body of the spirit. It's not some random spirit that happens to be possessing an object, it's the spirit of the object that's lived there all along. The idea that every single thing has its own soul is the premise of animist religions like Shinto. It only becomes a youkai when it gets angered, but this is fundamentally no different from, say, cats becoming two-tailed youkai after living a long time.

As for whether it can be damaged, there's no universal rule for that. In Touhou, youkai are resistant to physical damage and weak to spiritual damage, but that's just something ZUN came up with for his story. Oftentimes youkai are just killed with mundane swords and whatnot.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on April 01, 2016, 12:54:53 am
What was the event where ZUN saw a Reimu cosplayer wearing high heels and he said Reimu doesn't wear heels?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Ozzter on April 01, 2016, 08:20:25 am
The object is the body of the spirit. It's not some random spirit that happens to be possessing an object, it's the spirit of the object that's lived there all along. The idea that every single thing has its own soul is the premise of animist religions like Shinto. It only becomes a youkai when it gets angered, but this is fundamentally no different from, say, cats becoming two-tailed youkai after living a long time.

As for whether it can be damaged, there's no universal rule for that. In Touhou, youkai are resistant to physical damage and weak to spiritual damage, but that's just something ZUN came up with for his story. Oftentimes youkai are just killed with mundane swords and whatnot.

Ah thanks alot for clearing things up for me, especially the second paragraph there. I've got a bit of an interest in mythology, and happened to have tsukomogami on my mind so just wanted to ask about them in particular.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: gilde on April 02, 2016, 08:48:19 am
Question: the composer for the fangame Marine Benefit posted a new music series and a short story related to the game last year, and I'd like to make a post about it. Any thread for the game itself seems to have been dead for a while, though, so I'm not sure if it's worth starting an entire new thread for this? I'm not sure whether I would put said thread in the "games" or "fandom" subforum either, since there's nothing new regarding the game itself. Does anyone have some advice? (Also, if this isn't the right thread for this sort of question, I apologize in advance.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 02, 2016, 09:45:34 am
Would probably go in TARC, yes. Should probably make a new thread, no reason not to.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on April 02, 2016, 10:43:53 am
Can we find evidence to (fanonly) prove that PC-98 and Windows of Touhou was actually ONE CONTINUOUS TIMELINE?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on April 02, 2016, 11:08:40 am
Can we find evidence to (fanonly) prove that PC-98 and Windows of Touhou was actually ONE CONTINUOUS TIMELINE?

Alice and Yuka recognize Reimu as someone they've met before. I think that's pretty much it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on April 02, 2016, 03:01:05 pm
Do you know that the girl in the C62 Circle Cut is not Rin Satsuki? It's actually a Team Shanghai Alice poster girl, as revealed by a Tweet that a fan who talked to ZUN sent.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: ojisama on April 04, 2016, 02:10:28 am
I didn't know where to post this, I hope that my topic is at the right place.

Recently, I went on a discussion with some people and we were arguing about the Magician species.
And my point was that every Magicians in Touhou as a specie were youkais.
So, naturally, they talked about Marisa.
My thought is that Marisa was a "Magician" as a job/occupation because she can use magic
but not as a specie, as she never became a youkai to be immortal like real magicians, or like alice that was human before being a youkai magician.
Marisa is described as a "Human Magician" in all wikis, but she is said to be a "Human" as a specie.
for me, the "human magician" term is used to describe just a human that uses magic, but that is not a "real magician", like the native magicians (like patchy, byakuren) or the ones who became magicians (like alice).
I wanted to know what is the final answer behind that.

thanks.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on April 04, 2016, 07:10:23 am
Your interpretation is correct. Marisa is a human who works as a magician, but isn't a magician-type youkai like Alice, Patchouli, or Byakuren. You can get more details from PMiSS, but the gist of it is that magician youkai give up their humanity by drawing life energy from magic itself, rather than food.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on April 07, 2016, 11:19:19 pm
Do all Touhou characters with skirts wear bloomers in canon?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on April 07, 2016, 11:42:43 pm
Marisa does. Thats all i can remember.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on April 08, 2016, 05:30:10 pm
Do all Touhou characters with skirts wear bloomers in canon?
Did you check the wiki and look at the few official print work before hand? It gives some indication.

Reisen is wearing quite a short skirt (above knees) and we'll have to assume that she isn't wearing a bloomer. In Aya's PMiSS picture, she is clearly depicted without a bloomer. Or the bloomer has to be quite small.

So the question Do all touhou characters with skirts wear bloomers in canon is a weird question in general. And the answer is: No, they don't. Feels more like silly fanon question to me.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on April 08, 2016, 06:29:36 pm
Reisen is wearing quite a short skirt (above knees) and we'll have to assume that she isn't wearing a bloomer. In Aya's PMiSS picture, she is clearly depicted without a bloomer. Or the bloomer has to be quite small.

She wears short bloomers in Inabas.

In general, you can spot bloomers on quite a bunch of girls. There's no definite indication about anyone wearing something else. Of course, it's possible. Like I can picture Sanae wearing something more modern. But there's no definite way to say for sure.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on April 08, 2016, 10:03:50 pm
How do you pronounce Chang'e?

Also, I still want my earlier question to be answered:
What was the event where ZUN saw a Reimu cosplayer wearing high heels and he said Reimu doesn't wear heels?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 09, 2016, 01:54:53 am
How do you pronounce Chang'e?
https://translate.google.ca/?hl=en&tab=wT&authuser=0#ja/zh-CN/%E5%AB%A6%E5%A8%A5
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on April 09, 2016, 09:02:34 am
She wears short bloomers in Inabas.
Darn, you're right  :X . How could I forget 'Inaba' work. Now that is quite confusing with various depictions, but guess most clear evidence so far for Reisen.


https://translate.google.ca/?hl=en&tab=wT&authuser=0#ja/zh-CN/%E5%AB%A6%E5%A8%A5
Couldn't resist.  (https://translate.google.ca/?hl=en&tab=wT&authuser=0#ja/zh-CN/%E5%AB%A6%E5%A8%A5%E3%82%88%E8%A6%8B%E3%81%A6%E3%81%84%E3%82%8B%E3%81%8B%EF%BC%81%EF%BC%9F)

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Starxsword on April 10, 2016, 03:04:25 am
They probably just wear different things on different days. It isn't like their outfits have to be consistent.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on April 11, 2016, 04:09:14 am
Has ZUN ever talked about Hijiri's boobs jiggling in HM?

What was the event where ZUN saw a Reimu cosplayer wearing high heels and he said Reimu doesn't wear heels?

No one knows what your talking about \:V/
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on April 11, 2016, 06:09:33 am
No one knows what your talking about \:V/
Pretty sure he/she is talking about that time when Zun disapproved of a cosplayer's Reimu outfit stating that Reimu doesn't wear something that would be as impractical as heels. I assumed it was true whenever it was I read it wherever it was, even though it might almost be apocryphal at this point.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 11, 2016, 01:35:26 pm
i literally just ran a search for "reimu heels" on the forum and found it :|

https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15612.msg1023420.html#msg1023420

So the answer is Indie Game Fest 2013 at TGS.
The story isn't quite as disdainful as it's being made out to be. He was asked about the presenter's Reimu cosplay and mentioned her shoes, i.e. heels, weren't right. But the gist of "Reimu wouldn't wear heels" is there.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: zferolie on April 11, 2016, 07:33:50 pm
While in Japan a month ago I got a few Touhou books. I got both Inaba Inaba books because that is my favorite touhou book by far, but I also got this Tenshi book.

http://i.imgur.com/o7hlnEM.jpg (warning, large photo)
<Ruro> good lord the auto image resizer is broken

It seems it was done by Mizuki Hitoshi, Same guy that does the Kogasa webcomic.  Now I really like tenshi, and a friend of mine LOVES her. I would like to get this translated. So I have a few questions.

First, has this been Scanlated yet? I haven't been able to find it, but I may be looking wrong.

Second, Does anyone here do translations of these books? I can do all the scanning, you just need to do the translating part. I may be able to do the cleaning as well, but I wouldn't be very good. My friend thinks she would be able to do it but has just moved and doesn't have the time for a long time.

Third, How does one do scanning without wrecking the book itself? I don't want to remove the binding at all..

Any answers to these questions would be great! Thank you!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on April 11, 2016, 09:25:16 pm
First, has this been Scanlated yet? I haven't been able to find it, but I may be looking wrong.

Second, Does anyone here do translations of these books? I can do all the scanning, you just need to do the translating part. I may be able to do the cleaning as well, but I wouldn't be very good. My friend thinks she would be able to do it but has just moved and doesn't have the time for a long time.

Third, How does one do scanning without wrecking the book itself? I don't want to remove the binding at all..

Any answers to these questions would be great! Thank you!
First: Check http://voile.gensokyo.org/wakaba.html. I did you the favor of looking on the Touhou Wiki first to confirm that no Mizuki works are in their comics or potential comics list already, but these guys would know best.

Second: Again, this is the Voile people's thing.

Third: HAHAHAHAHA NOPE. Get out that X-Acto knife! There's a reason people who buy things to scanlate get credit for providing the raws, and it's because they had to take apart their binding to do so.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: zferolie on April 11, 2016, 10:25:38 pm
Ah it got moved into here

First: Check http://voile.gensokyo.org/wakaba.html. I did you the favor of looking on the Touhou Wiki first to confirm that no Mizuki works are in their comics or potential comics list already, but these guys would know best.

Second: Again, this is the Voile people's thing.

Third: HAHAHAHAHA NOPE. Get out that X-Acto knife! There's a reason people who buy things to scanlate get credit for providing the raws, and it's because they had to take apart their binding to do so.

I've never heard of Voile Thanks for the tip. A shame I have to take apart the book... I have scanned some artbooks, but I guess scanning a book like this would require me to take it apart... I really don't want to... No option what so ever huh?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on April 11, 2016, 11:20:24 pm
I've never heard of Voile Thanks for the tip. A shame I have to take apart the book... I have scanned some artbooks, but I guess scanning a book like this would require me to take it apart... I really don't want to... No option what so ever huh?
Yeah, the Gensokyo.org doujin folk have definitely have a lower profile than they did in their heyday, but they're still around.

And no, there isn't. Most people who buy a doujin knowing they're going to scanlate it later tend to buy two copies for this reason.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on April 12, 2016, 01:37:50 am
It seems it was done by Mizuki Hitoshi.
This might save you some trouble, albeit in a different way, because that comic isn't actually by Mizuki Hitoshi. The blurb at the bottom is just an endorsement from him, nothing more.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: zferolie on April 12, 2016, 04:14:50 am
This might save you some trouble, albeit in a different way, because that comic isn't actually by Mizuki Hitoshi. The blurb at the bottom is just an endorsement from him, nothing more.

Oh really? Well that confused me haha. Where can I look to find the actual author?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 12, 2016, 05:05:45 am
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?id=2508
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: zferolie on April 12, 2016, 01:09:27 pm
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?id=2508

Thanks. If this has been out for almost a year, I am surprised no one has scanned it yet.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on April 12, 2016, 04:46:30 pm
No one even scans the official Touhou comics, so why would you expect every single doujin to get scanned?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 12, 2016, 07:15:03 pm
Doujin culture is such that between doujin shops selling popular artists' works, events where people can get works from obscure artists as a priority, reprinting for further events, sharing between friends and so on, you have plenty of options. There often isn't a need to scan some work for the sake of sharing, within Japan, besides pure piracy.

I'd guess that somewhere around 90% of doujinshi are never scanned.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on April 14, 2016, 08:24:52 pm
Does anyone have the Touhou 2 MIDIs recorded in SC-55?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on April 14, 2016, 09:30:18 pm
They sound almost the same as on the SC-88 but with generally worse sound and faker, metallic reverb.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Chirumiru-chan on April 14, 2016, 09:50:52 pm
They sound almost the same as on the SC-88 but with generally worse sound and faker, metallic reverb.
Can you upload "Love-colored Magic" on an SC-55 so I can compare?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on April 17, 2016, 05:43:57 pm
Are those really energy swords coming out from the Prismrivers' hands?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on April 18, 2016, 04:44:06 pm
If Koishi's actions entirely stem from her subconscious, with her actual conscious self having no control at all over these actions, what would happen if she were to gradually become seriously depressed and feel despair in her condition?

e: I guess this is more 'what if' isn't it? Which just got locked, apparently. My bad.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on April 18, 2016, 05:15:56 pm
If Koishi's actions entirely stem from her subconscious, with her actual conscious self having no control at all over these actions, what would happen if she were to gradually become seriously depressed and feel despair in her condition?

e: I guess this is more 'what if' isn't it? Which just got locked, apparently. My bad.

Nah, the What If? threads were spam recepticles for jokey, three-word replies to jokey speculations. Your question seems more like something that could be answered legitimately.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on April 19, 2016, 08:07:03 am
Well, as far as I can tell, that sort of thing is what caused her to seal away her third eye and conscious mind in the first place.  Though that despair came from the stigma of reading minds, which she doesn't have to worry about anymore.
But there are also two other somewhat contradictory things to take into account as well.  The first is that "mind" and "heart" are interchangeable terms in Touhou: when she sealed her eye and mind, she also sealed her emotions as well.  This is why the Mask of Hope was such a big thing for her, it allowed her to have a strong emotion even without thoughts.
And the second is that the seal is not perfect.  There are elements of her actions that suggest the presence of a mind behind them.  The biggest one is in the SA Extra, where because of her memories of her sister and their pets, she engages the player in battle.  What's weird is that in HM they actually make a point of her lack of memory in her storyline!

So what would a depressed "mindless" Koishi do?  I cannot say for sure, but it would probably be a subtle tinge to her usual actions.  Unless she ganks Kokoro's Mask of Sadness, in which case it would overpower her completely and bad stuff is going down.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on April 19, 2016, 11:04:40 am
The Touhou Wiki said that during 1945, the Hakurei Barrier weakened for the first time. 

Theoretically because of radiation of the two atomic bombs dropped probably nearby?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 19, 2016, 02:25:21 pm
The weakening of the Hakurei Barrier is due to its "rebirth" every 60 years. If you go back another 60 you'll notice it's 1885; the year the Barrier was erected. The influx of dead in Higan is related to the 60-year cycle, and the flowers in Gensokyo being affected by the dead is because of the Barrier weakening, but the deaths and the Hakurei Barrier aren't directly related.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on April 19, 2016, 02:45:06 pm
What a damned coincidence of coincidences...

Oh well, another day in Gensokyo  :V, by the way thanks for the quick reply!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on April 21, 2016, 04:11:30 am
Still want an answer to this question:
Has ZUN ever talked about Hijiri's boobs jiggling in HM?
And another what if question:
Would Yukari be in support/agreement or disagreement/opposition to the kind of slavery that humans do, mainly the kind practiced by american before the civil war? I mean, she does own a slave, but she's a youkai and her views on slavery are bound be different from humans. I think she would find the idea of selling slaves silly, but what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on April 21, 2016, 05:37:08 am
It's hard to to say, but I doubt she'd find it "silly" in the sense that she thinks it's illogical: she's a smart woman who'd easily realize how such a system benefits those in power. She might find it silly, in a condescending way, that powerless humans are pretending to be in charge of their own fates and the fates of others, but she'd probably think the same thing of government and whatnot.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on April 21, 2016, 06:37:02 am
I was thinking more along the lines that she would think that slave owners did not do a very good job at "improving" their slaves, considering that slaves often rebelled against their owners, But yeah that worrks too, even if it makes Yukari look like a hypocrite considering she's in control of Ran's fate. But i guess if a youkai does it its okay!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Kappa-kun on April 23, 2016, 11:26:41 am
I don't quite understand Yukari's and Reimu's relationship with each other. Can someone enlighten me? I always thought that Reimu hates Yukari in some way but that might be just my own interpretation. (I'm new to the fandom btw)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on April 23, 2016, 11:48:07 am
"Hate" is too strong a word. Reimu does get annoyed at Yukari at times, but in general Yukari fills a mentoring role for her. They do share the job of maintaining the barrier, which Yukari is more knowledgeable about.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on April 23, 2016, 03:06:41 pm
Yukari is a derp teacher in a school who teaches an under-educated security guard during her free time, period?.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Kappa-kun on April 23, 2016, 08:25:53 pm
Yukari is a derp teacher in a school who teaches an under-educated security guard during her free time, period?.

That summed it all up
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: binbinbake on April 24, 2016, 09:36:26 am
Does anyone know what the extra stage theme of Touhou Mashousei (Fairies of Sorcery) is?
I haven't found its name anywhere and Touhou wiki doesn't have information about it either.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on April 25, 2016, 06:06:57 pm
I've been enjoying a lot of the Peanuts x Touhou comics, but this one (http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=1736845) stumps me.

Can someone explain the joke?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 25, 2016, 10:24:23 pm
Pretty sure the joke is that the Tokugawa Shogunate was established by... Tokugawa (Ieyasu).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on April 26, 2016, 09:11:50 am
Huh. A joke so obvious I missed it. Well thanks!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sen on April 26, 2016, 02:27:00 pm
Can someone explain to me what the Dream World introduced in LoLK is? I don't get how it relates to the plot, why the Lunarians had to go there, or what it even does, frankly.

(hope this is the right place to ask...wasn't quite sure, don't want to cause a hassle for the mods)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on April 26, 2016, 10:19:25 pm
Can someone explain to me what the Dream World introduced in LoLK is? I don't get how it relates to the plot, why the Lunarians had to go there, or what it even does, frankly.

(hope this is the right place to ask...wasn't quite sure, don't want to cause a hassle for the mods)

Uh, the Dream World is fairly new and there aren't too many explanations about it, but let's try anyway :
Can someone explain to me what the Dream World introduced in LoLK is? (...) or what it even does

Even if LoLK introduced it, I think WaHH gave the most explanations regarding Dream World related stuff. If I understood correctly, things goes more or less like this : when people sleep and dream, their consciousness (or soul?) goes on a trip to another reality : the experience it lives there is basically what a "dream" is ; and in order to get to that dream, the consciousness (or soul?) of the dreamer passes through the Dream World : in other words, the Dream World is essentially some sort of passageway that binds differents worlds / places / realities together. Sort of. For example, Sumireko can access Gensokyo through her dreams.

As for LoLK, in order to get to the Moon, the heroines used a certain passageway that brought them in the Dream World physically. Here, the Dream World might seem like it's just some random place that they happened to pass by in order to solve the incident, and might therefore seem irrelevant ; but its relevance is mainly because of how it is tied to Sagume's plan :

How it relates to the plot
The plot being mainly about Sagume's plan, the Dream World is obviously not the focus of the story. But it does hold a certain relevance toward Sagume's plan, and the plan's point is basically how to get the Lunarians out of the mess they are in :

Why the Lunarians had to go there, or what it even does, frankly.
Junko's invasion was basically about flooding the Moon with "impurity" / lifeforce and render the "pure" Moonies unable to react. "Impurity" here is mainly about life and death : if it's alive, it can die. But here's the thing : the "pure" Lunarians are able to enjoy extremely long lives because they reject the notions of "life" and "death" : if it's not alive it can't die (so, basically, they're amortals). So, if the Lunarians were affected by the impurity, what would happen ? They'll become mortals, and that is not certainly not the first thing on their wishlist. So, basically, the Lunarians had to move to the Dream World because the Lunar Capital was threatened by a massive amount of impurity.

Now then, back to how the Dream World is related to the plot : Since the Moonies were unable to do anything against this threat, obviously, getting people who had no trouble whatsoever with impurity deal with their problem was the obvious choice... and these people had to somehow end up in the Moon, say, for instance, through the Dream World. Besides, the heroines getting in the Moon conveniently to deal with their problem seems reeeaaaaaaaally suspicious, I mean, the Moonies have shown in CiLR that they are able to with whatever way outsiders might have to intrude the Moon, so...



So yeah, all in all, the Dream World is essentially an important piece of the puzzle that is Sagume's plan, but certainly not the focus of the story. There might certainly be other ways to highlight its relevance, but IMO, it's minor compared to the Lunarians's scheme.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on April 27, 2016, 08:18:53 pm
Besides, the heroines getting in the Moon conveniently to deal with their problem seems reeeaaaaaaaally suspicious, I mean, the Moonies have shown in CiLR that they are able to with whatever way outsiders might have to intrude the Moon, so...
That's pretty much on Eirin. She's the one that gave the Ultramarine Orb medicine for the heroines, after all. Sagume, at least, assumes she's responsible for sending the player character in all routes, and I don't think she's wrong, considering it's Eirin we're talking about. Also, the lunarians couldn't deal with the attack because not only did Junko make the fairies a force of pure impurity, but likely also because fairies simply respawn if killed. So they couldn't get rid of them as they normally would (however that is, be it weapons or something else). They really needed a human/impure moon rabbit to do the job.

Also, I think it's relevant to say that the majority of the lunarians had no idea they were in the dream world, and it was actually said that it wouldn't be good for them to remain there for much longer than they already had been (nearly a year), because prolonged stay in the dream world would eventually decay their minds, iirc.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on April 29, 2016, 11:41:33 pm
STILL want an answer to this:

Has ZUN ever talked about Hijiri's boobs jiggling in HM?

Also, whats that wooden thing that Miko carries with her? (Not her Sword.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on April 29, 2016, 11:51:40 pm
Also, whats that wooden thing that Miko carries with her? (Not her Sword.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaku_(ritual_baton) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaku_(ritual_baton))
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 30, 2016, 12:06:19 am
STILL want an answer to this:
Has ZUN ever talked about Hijiri's boobs jiggling in HM?
Nobody answering suggests there is a lack of evidence that he has, which doesn't mean he definitely hasn't, but you just shouldn't assume he has.
The fact is that it exists in the game, so it isn't like it was so apparently awful that ZUN had to do something about it. If he has commented on stuff like this at all it probably would have been on something like Nikenme, which would be very difficult to find without a text source quoting it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hannibal_Kills on May 02, 2016, 11:35:03 pm
What exactly is the content rating for Touhou if we include the backstories and the manga? I think 13+, but I don't think that's accurate at all.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on May 03, 2016, 01:51:37 am
Depends on what rating system you're using, but most of Touhou is pretty much for general audiences as far as its face value goes. Some works like CiLR and FS you might rate 10+ for some violence?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Flandre5carlet on May 08, 2016, 06:46:12 pm
Hey guys,

A few days ago I happened to stumble upon this (http://i.imgur.com/GLJtNyh.jpg) IRL. Long story short, it's a simple crosswords magazine, but well, just look at who's on the cover for some unknown reason...

Now, beyond wondering just "why" they're even there in the first place, it did raise a few questions in my mind, namely:
-Was the photo used with or without permission?
-If anyone happens to know who the cosplayers are?

If this is in the wrong place, I apologise, I wasn't sure where a topic like this could even go so I just picked the most general thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Spotty Len on May 08, 2016, 10:15:11 pm
Somebody sent it to me this morning, and I am honestly tempted to give the magazine a call tomorrow to ask them.

Or I could also order the magazine (http://www.zepresse.fr/revue.php?id=174981), but uh...

Thinking about it, I could probably find it in a store.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Flandre5carlet on May 08, 2016, 10:18:43 pm
I also checked the photo credits part earlier, but there's nothing about the cover photo, only photos used inside the magazine itself... So that didn't help either.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on May 12, 2016, 05:59:28 pm
How did English speakers decided that Utsuho is a raven and not a crow?  She's referred to as a crow (karasu) like Aya and Hatate in Japan, where they don't differentiate between crows and ravens, at least among those who aren't scientists.

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on May 12, 2016, 06:37:08 pm
How did English speakers decided that Utsuho is a raven and not a crow?  She's referred to as a crow (karasu) like Aya and Hatate in Japan, where they don't differentiate between crows and ravens, at least among those who aren't scientists.

Thanks in advance!

Well, the simplest answer would be that because the language doesn't clearly distinguish them (unless you're a birdwatcher or whatever), whoever was translating SA just mentally flipped a coin and landed on raven instead of crow. Or maybe they even just thought that "hell raven" rolled off the tongue better than "hell crow." It's not exactly wrong, although it certainly bugs me that some people make a huge deal of it, and sometimes I'd rather just see it all switched to "crow" to avoid any confusion. It also distances her slightly from her corvid brethren (Aya, etc), which I'm certain was not intentional.

Either way though, I'm interested in hearing the story myself, if there is one.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hope ♦ Metal on May 13, 2016, 07:00:24 pm
Well, the simplest answer would be that because the language doesn't clearly distinguish them (unless you're a birdwatcher or whatever), whoever was translating SA just mentally flipped a coin and landed on raven instead of crow. Or maybe they even just thought that "hell raven" rolled off the tongue better than "hell crow." It's not exactly wrong, although it certainly bugs me that some people make a huge deal of it, and sometimes I'd rather just see it all switched to "crow" to avoid any confusion. It also distances her slightly from her corvid brethren (Aya, etc), which I'm certain was not intentional.

Either way though, I'm interested in hearing the story myself, if there is one.
My theory: Ravens are bigger than crows so if we equate "bigness" to which stage they are the boss of, we get that Okuu is "bigger" than Aya, therefore she HAS to be a raven.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on May 13, 2016, 08:43:18 pm
To be honest Raven sounds cooler than Crow.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Maple on May 16, 2016, 10:25:30 pm
I found this "crossover" (so to say) on Twitter (https://twitter.com/rariatoo/status/731523755323744257), which leads to an official-looking page (http://3ds3-mys.taiko-ch.net/adventure_02.html#guest) for Taiko no Tatsujin: Dokodon! Mystery Adventure, set for release for...today (May 16th)?

I was reminded of cuc's post regarding some licenses with ZUN and Nintendo, but it did not mention Taiko Drum Master (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19472.msg1252539.html#msg1252539).

Any extra info on this?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Spotty Len on May 16, 2016, 10:43:23 pm
This was announced some time ago.

See that article on Gematsu (http://gematsu.com/2016/03/taiko-drum-master-doko-don-mystery-adventure-announced-3ds). Some Touhou songs (Night of Nights, Cirno’s Perfect Math Class and Utakata, Ai no Mahoroba) are featured in the song list (http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Taiko-3DS-Ann_03-08-16.jpg).

IIRC, it already happened in previous Taiko no Tetsujin games.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Moogs Parfait on May 20, 2016, 06:41:07 pm
Do we know that the Komeiji sisters are in fact seperate beings?  Even as I ask this I wonder what the definition would be when involving youkai.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on May 20, 2016, 07:40:57 pm
They are separate beings by any common definition you could come up with. By which I mean they're physically distinct, can be in different places at the same time, and seem to have different minds, etc. In fact, because of the way mindreading works, you could even say that Koishi is more distinct from Satori than literally anyone else Satori interacts with. You would have to come up with an entirely new definition of "separate being" for that question to even be worth asking.

I suppose what you're getting at though is a more metaphysical "are they actually two halves of the same whole?" I presume this is derived from their designs being intentionally inverted copies of each other, and Koishi representing the Id while Satori maybe represents the Superego. While I'm sure you could take that somewhere metaphorically, I don't think it works for out for two major reasons: a) If they're supposed to represent the Freudian aspects of the psyche, they'd need a third sister to represent the Ego, not to mention that of the two only Koishi uses an explicit Freudian theme in the first place, b) Koishi has a specific history where she wasn't always Satori's opposite. She used to be a normal satori with normal mindreading powers, and only obtained her control over over the unconscious by accident while trying to turn off her powers. I think this sort of history would be odd if they were intended to reflect multiple sides of the same person: what kind of metaphor would it be if both sides started out the same, and both complete individuals, only to have one of them change later? It's not like Koishi split off from Satori at the same moment she closed her third eye. Having two people grow in different directions works great as a narrative foil (which they definitely are to each other), but not so much for being the same person.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on June 01, 2016, 03:52:20 am
Has yuyuko ever shown any regret for almost killing all of gensokyo? I think she gave spring back to gensokyo. but for all we know she only did that because reimu and co said so.

i am having an crisis of faith (so to speak) over my love for yuyuko right now, btw.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 01, 2016, 04:32:27 am
Well, that's the nature of an incident, isn't it?  Something threatening, but resolvable via spell card rules. 

That said, Yuyuko probably didn't intend to keep Gensokyo's spring permanently.  She just wanted to find out who was under the Saigyou Ayakashi.  What would have happened after the tree bloomed would have doomed all life, but that's not a thing she knew at the time.  If she now knows and regrets her action, it's never officially said.  But in the story for Extra, one of the people who wants the border to the Netherworld resealed is Yuyuko herself.  Granted, this never ends up happening, but I'd take it as a positive sign.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on June 01, 2016, 04:34:54 am
That said, Yuyuko probably didn't intend to keep Gensokyo's spring permanently. 
Source?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 01, 2016, 04:40:20 am
I'm not too sure where you get the idea that the Spring Snow Incident could have killed all of Gensokyo?

Yuyuko really just started the whole deal out of curiosity. When they got her to stop she got bored of it and gave up.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on June 01, 2016, 04:49:10 am
Crops. if it keep on going, all of gensokyos crops would have not been able to grow and that way no humans would be able to eat, then the youkai would eat the humans and then disappear from existence because they need humans to exist.

Also i am disappointed in Yuyuko because i always assumed that all of Yuyuko's seemly naive attitude was just her pretending to be dumb so that people would lower their guard around her. And while that is true in a way it seems that Yuyuko really is that dumb sometimes. Also her interactions with Ran and Sukia make her seem like more of an asshole than the fandom lets on.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 01, 2016, 04:51:13 am
Source?

In Reimu's route, she asks Yuyuko to give it back, and Yuyuko says to wait a little until after the tree has bloomed.

I'm not too sure where you get the idea that the Spring Snow Incident could have killed all of Gensokyo?

Yuyuko really just started the whole deal out of curiosity. When they got her to stop she got bored of it and gave up.

The incident itself wouldn't have done it, true.  If the Ayakashi was fully unsealed, that would have been quite a bit more threatening.

Crops. if it keep on going, all of gensokyos crops would have not been able to grow and that way no humans would be able to eat, then the youkai would eat the humans and then disappear from existence because they need humans to exist.

Also i am disappointed in Yuyuko because i always assumed that all of Yuyuko's seemly naive attitude was just her pretending to be dumb so that people would lower their guard around her. And while that is true in a way it seems that Yuyuko really is that dumb sometimes. Also her interactions with Ran and Sukia make her seem like more of an asshole than the fandom lets on.

She's smart, but no one in Touhou is omniscient.  She simply didn't know what was up with that tree.  As for the crops, like I said, it was probably meant to be a temporary thing.  It did mess with the harvest a bit, though, iirc.  And yeah, she can be a bit of a jackass at times.  Her SWR story comes to mind on that one.  But who in this series doesn't have jerk moments?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on June 01, 2016, 05:11:11 am
In Reimu's route, she asks Yuyuko to give it back, and Yuyuko says to wait a little until after the tree has bloomed.

Well, i guess Yuyuko isn't that selfish then. But she is a bit dumb for not realizing that stealing the spring would cause consequences.

Edit: but then again, yuyuko spread snow everywhere in SWR for no real reason. that was selfish as hell.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 01, 2016, 05:30:07 am
Crops. if it keep on going, all of gensokyos crops would have not been able to grow and that way no humans would be able to eat,
That's not really something considered in the setting since the human village didn't even exist much as a thing back then, but sure that'd probably be a point if this were FS. That being said, it isn't like she consumed the spring, she was gathering it to put in one place to have the tree fully bloom. The spring never disappeared, nor did she plan on just keeping it forever, so while the situation did last a long time it wasn't exactly critical.

Quote
then the youkai would eat the humans and then disappear from existence because they need humans to exist.
why would the youkai eat the humans that makes no sense

Also i am disappointed in Yuyuko because i always assumed that all of Yuyuko's seemly naive attitude was just her pretending to be dumb so that people would lower their guard around her. And while that is true in a way it seems that Yuyuko really is that dumb sometimes.
She's an airhead. Part of her character is that it isn't always obvious when she catches onto something and when she doesn't. Her part in SDV is pretty much maximum airhead so that Yukari forces herself to explain things.

Also her interactions with Ran and Sukia make her seem like more of an asshole than the fandom lets on.
welcome to gensokyo enjoy your stay, basically


The incident itself wouldn't have done it, true.  If the Ayakashi was fully unsealed, that would have been quite a bit more threatening
Not even, really. If the Saigyou Ayakashi could revive, it would still just be a youkai tree stuck in the Netherworld, where there are already only dead things anyways.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on June 01, 2016, 06:49:22 am
welcome to gensokyo enjoy your stay, basically
[/quote]
Doesn't justify her bad behavior when there are plenty of people in gensokyo who are not as nearly as selfish as her.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 01, 2016, 07:55:25 am
Well, it consumes souls, and it's in the place where all the souls go.  At least to me, that's definitely a worrying thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 01, 2016, 03:51:02 pm
Yuyuko doesn't care if anyone dies anyway. Why would she care, given that from her perspective death isn't bad at all? She talks about inviting people to the Netherworld for the flower viewing party, and of course that's a euphemism for killing them. While perhaps boss banter shouldn't be taken all that seriously (Reimu murdered Sakuya!), there's really nothing to indicate that she would care one way or another if everyone died.

If you can't handle selfish and/or evil characters hanging out without karmic punishment, you'll probably spend your entire duration in the fandom discovering new horrible things that various characters have done. For the record, Yukari is implied to import homeless people to feed the youkai, and Ran talks about Chen as if she's an object.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on June 01, 2016, 03:55:40 pm
In fairness, Chen is objectively annoying.

But yeah, Gensokyo is pretty much the Grand Kingdom of Jerkfaces. As with people in the outside world, you have to take the bad with the good, even amongst those we hold dear.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 01, 2016, 04:42:42 pm
Well, it consumes souls, and it's in the place where all the souls go.  At least to me, that's definitely a worrying thing.

Uh... No and no. Saigyou Ayakashi just charms nearby people to death, and only certain kind of souls go to Netherworld.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 01, 2016, 08:02:23 pm
According to the lore, after death, souls are sent to the Netherworld as ghosts to await judgment from the Yama.  And everyone eventually gets judged, barring those special cases that can't die in the first place.  So I'd say "the place where all the souls go" is pretty accurate.
As for the other?  If it can only feed on the living, that is great!  But I think it would depend on which character of "soul" they were using when referring to its ability.  If it is the one more equivalent to life force, yeah, you're right.  If it is the other one, that is a more traditional "soul" and becomes a ghost?  That's some bad juju.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on June 01, 2016, 08:09:02 pm
The fandom does love to gloss over how callous most characters are/can be, and to ignore how youkai pretty much have to be jerks to survive. It's kinda understandable that someone new to the series who got introduced to it from fandom would find the canon characterizations a little jarring.

Uh... No and no. Saigyou Ayakashi just charms nearby people to death
To be fair, the wiki does says it drains souls from people, though it doesn't provide a source for that. It's not Yuyuko's PCB profile, at least.

According to the lore, after death, souls are sent to the Netherworld as ghosts to await judgment from the Yama.  And everyone eventually gets judged, barring those special cases that can't die in the first place.  So I'd say "the place where all the souls go" is pretty accurate.
You're a bit confused; souls awaiting judgement go to Higan, after crossing the Sanzu River in the shinigami's boat. The Netherworld is a possible final destination for a soul; the ones that were neither too terrible to go to Hell nor deemed worthy of going to Heaven. As Akyuu says in PMiSS:

Quote from: Akyuu: Netherworld
After death, humans pass through the Road of Liminality, cross over the Sanzu River, and receive the Yama's judgment. Depending on the severity of their crimes, they are sent to Hell, to the Netherworld, to Heaven, etc.

Quote from: Akyuu: Higan
All people do [in Higan] is await the Enma's judgement. [...] It's okay if you are sent to the Netherworld, but if you descend into Hell you'll temporarily leave the circle of transmigration and won't be able to once again enjoy the sights of cherry blossoms and the taste of sake.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on June 01, 2016, 08:36:51 pm
To be fair, the wiki does says it drains souls from people, though it doesn't provide a source for that. It's not Yuyuko's PCB profile, at least.
The closest thing i could find was

"Everyone always seemed to be bent out of shape about that youkai cherry tree, and nothing else. Surely, it had drained the spirit from too many human lives."

in Yukari's PCB profile.

Edit: there's also something about "absorbing their blood" (which i'm not sure it's just another way to say it killed them, not literally absorbing fluids :V) in Yuyuko's PMiSS article.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 01, 2016, 09:49:55 pm
Edit: there's also something about "absorbing their blood" (which i'm not sure it's just another way to say it killed them, not literally absorbing fluids :V) in Yuyuko's PMiSS article.

Cherry blossoms absorbing blood of people who are buried beneath them is a bit of classic Japanese folklore. Supposedly that's why their petals are pink: from the blood they've soaked up. That line is an allusion to that phenomenon, which the Japanese audience would definitely already know.

Anyway, the moral is that you should never cite the wiki for facts.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 02, 2016, 04:41:33 am
ok I did some work on the wiki article and those other minor mentions

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on June 03, 2016, 07:15:14 pm
Where do Forbidden Scrollery vol. 5 and 6 start and end? The wiki seem to have lost track of it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 04, 2016, 12:02:33 am
Where do Forbidden Scrollery vol. 5 and 6 start and end? The wiki seem to have lost track of it.

Volume 5 begins with chapter 30, and volume 6 with 38.

Edit: Fixed the wiki, although I didn't bother adding the book details.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on June 06, 2016, 02:43:22 pm
Are celestials considered pure by Lunarian standards? Is there a physical difference between celestials and lunarians? (And by physical, I mean looking only at their body's state, not how they reached that state)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 06, 2016, 08:24:36 pm
I would assume celestials are pure, for the same reason ghosts are pure. The afterlife is pure because things neither live nor die there.

As for the composition of their bodies, it's been implied several times that Lunarians are simply gods, but not the same kind of god that lives on Earth. The "higher class of god" and also the amatsukami, the heavenly gods. Whereas celestials are simply enlightened humans.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on June 07, 2016, 05:20:20 am
Is there any reason why the protagonists let Byakuren live even though she sides with Youkai? Also, since Akyuu states that Youkai are enemies of humanity, would that make Byakuren her enemy? If so, I wonder why she hasn't done anything about it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 07, 2016, 10:42:07 am
The entire point of the spell card rules is to be non-lethal, so that both humans and youkai can survive.  Gensokyo, after all, was created to be a place where youkai would live on, rejecting the disbelief of the outside world.  But to do so, they need people to believe in them and their power.  Thus, incidents, and spell card rules.

Akyuu, though knowledgeable about youkai and the way Gensokyo works, is not a combatant.  In fact, her writing of Gensokyo Chronicle and related works is part of an established balance, to keep the regular humans in line, and keep belief in youkai strong.  Whether it is a deliberate scheme, or just a result of her personal belief, her statement serves the purpose of Gensokyo.  The antagonism between human and youkai is literally what youkai need to exist, as long as the humans do not get too strong, or the youkai do not do something really stupid.  But that's what Keine is for...on both ends.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on June 07, 2016, 11:08:09 am
Also, it's questionable how accurate Akyuu really is. The books are very specifically written from her point of view, which adds some uncertainty to what is fact, what is Akyuu having bad information, and what is Akyuu's own grudges. I suspect this is to let ZUN have some wiggle room/plausible deniability. (And we get an out if headcanons are rustled a little too much).

I like to joke she's a Suetonius fangirl as a result of it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on June 07, 2016, 11:39:42 am
Does the hakurei barrei separate gensokyo from the environmental changes in the outside world? Is GLOBAL WARMING a thing in gensokyo? Will wakasagihime have an unbalanced diet in the years to come? Is cirno in actual mortal danger?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 07, 2016, 12:18:10 pm
It's explicitly said in WaHH that the barrier lets in natural things like water and sunlight, so environmental changes likely affect Gensokyo. If there's a significant environmental event in the future it's somewhat likely ZUN will at least make a passing mention.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on June 07, 2016, 04:54:46 pm
Is there any kind of moral lessons behind Touhou stories? Or it is just that "Gensokyo is not a playground for you to put your typically uninspired OCs in and make a bad harem fanfiction out of it."
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 07, 2016, 05:40:27 pm
Is there any kind of moral lessons behind Touhou stories? Or it is just that "Gensokyo is not a playground for you to put your typically uninspired OCs in and make a bad harem fanfiction out of it."

More like "all's well as long as it ends in a tea party with lots of booze".
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: commandercool on June 07, 2016, 06:40:41 pm
Is there any kind of moral lessons behind Touhou stories? Or it is just that "Gensokyo is not a playground for you to put your typically uninspired OCs in and make a bad harem fanfiction out of it."

Maybe this should be a separate post, but this is something I've been thinking about lately, especially in the sense of how Touhou relates to nostalgia and traditionalism. I'm certainly not the most informed person about this and I definitely don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, but it's been on my mind.

It seems easy to accuse Touhou and ZUN of being overly nostalgic or pro-tradition given the setting and the way ZUN chooses to do business. Is that actually the case though? Most Touhous ultimately seem to be fools, or at least prone to foolishness, and I get a vague impression (particularly from Forbidden Scrollery and Wild And Horned Hermit, which are definitely the print works I'm most familiar with although I'm not quite caught up) that the old-fashioned characters (Reimu in particular)  are the ones who come off as fools most often. Maybe that's just because ZUN favors that kind of character so we see them the most and therefore see them make the most mistakes, but comparatively the more modern characters (the Moriya crew and maybe the Kappa) seem to come out on top more often.

Is that maybe a sign of ZUN's mindset? Is there a message in Touhou about the folly of living in the past? This is a seriously half-baked idea with absolutely nothing to back it up so please don't take it as an actual claim or theory, but it's something I've been considering and I'd be interested to hear anyone else's take on it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 07, 2016, 10:25:10 pm
I think the most common moral is that different people are different and that needs to be respected. Imposing your morality on them is especially wrong, even if it seems like a good thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on June 07, 2016, 11:56:03 pm
Naw, because spellcards were imposed, and Reimu imposes all the time.

I think the real moral is don't kill people because you disagree with them, in defiance of a lot of video game standards, but perhaps this is quietly going out the window these days?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 08, 2016, 02:04:32 am
Another prominent theme is "you can't get something for nothing."  A lot of what commander is talking about, with people being made fools of, is them trying to do exactly that, and ending up as the butt.  But it goes quite a bit deeper than that.  For all the great things about Gensokyo and its inhabitants to even be, there is a huge price to be paid.  It's a dichotomy mirrored by the official works; someone reading Three Fairies or some Rinnosuke articles will get the impression of a cute, light-hearted Gensokyo, while someone reading Akyuu's works or Forbidden Scrollery will realize this place is actually really fucked up.  And the best thing is?  They're both equally correct.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on June 08, 2016, 04:39:24 am
I don't think the games themselves have any sort of moral points. It's more or less "Reimu beats up whoever's in her way" and that's that. Reimu's the kind of person with a lot of power which means she can more or less do whatever she wants. There's no moral to be found there lol.

As for the side works...

Individual chapters might have obvious morals, but as a whole the written works are pretty ambiguous.

SSiB had a little bit of a message in that "pride comes before a fall", with the way Yukari begged on her knees but still managed to "win" in the end, against the Lunarians who believed themselves to be VASTLY superior to the IMPURE Earthlings. Of course, the message here is kind of watered down given Yukari "winning" is just stealing their alcohol :V.

Forbidden Scrollery seems to be conveying the message of knowing your place, with Kosuzu finding herself in more and more trouble the more ambitious she gets with her books.

I don't see anything in WaHH yet, but I can definitely see some big message coming out depending on what happens when/if Kasen makes the reveal.

I don't see any overarching messages in the 3 fairies comics, personally.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 08, 2016, 06:45:25 am
I don't think the games themselves have any sort of moral points.

PoFV has a (possibly unintentional) message that, no matter who you are, you're not without flaws and could use a lesson or two. And ULiL's message is pretty much what Kage said. Other than that, some endings and some manga chapters might be showing ZUN's views on some topics.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on June 08, 2016, 11:02:33 am
PoFV has a (possibly unintentional) message that, no matter who you are, you're not without flaws and could use a lesson or two. And ULiL's message is pretty much what Kage said. Other than that, some endings and some manga chapters might be showing ZUN's views on some topics.

I think this is closer to the truth. There are overarching themes across the games, of course, but individual games can also have their individual "messages". Some of these messages you might have to squint at to see, because I don't think ZUN overall tries to deliberately insert a specific message very often. But they do happen.

Would be a fun topic to explore in its own thread, too, I think.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on June 11, 2016, 10:25:07 pm
I don't know if this was asked before in the thread or previous thread versions.

Alice's design in Mystic Square is obviously inspired to display Alice from 'Alice in Wonderland'. I mean, the Extra stage even contains the soldier cards and some card king in the middle of the stage. In Touhou 7 she returns but completely redesigned as if to avoid copy right issues. Or because typical ZUN PC98 reason: Forget about it and redesign and try not to find plot links. Even spell cards didn't really had a form back then.

But in Alice' case it is really hard to ignore. PMiSS only reveals her as a human who have become a magician through training. Did she do that perhaps in Makai? Also meeting her in Makai in Touhou 5 just feels odd. She even refers to that meeting in Reimu's PCB scenario.

She also used that book/grimoire to fight in MS Extra, but in PMiSS she is told to be a highly skilled doll user and not the book?

Just who is she anyway?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 11, 2016, 11:01:32 pm
If you assume PC-98 never happened, nothing requires any explaining at all. Just, you know, for the record.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 11, 2016, 11:42:17 pm
To back up Clarste's words:

Quote from: ZUN
There are a few contradictions in the story when putting the PC-98 and Windows games side by side, but I would take reference from the latest games to consider what is canon.

So if PMiSS says she's just a human-turned-magician without any mention of Makai, then she's just a human-turned-magician with no relation to Makai. It would be strange that such a major fact was never mentioned in any of her profiles had it still applied to her current version. So whatever can be seen as connection between PC-98 and Windows eras is nothing more than a throwback.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 12, 2016, 04:27:33 am
Makai doesn't have to be a major factor, either.  Alice was there, but so what?  Reimu has been there three times, that doesn't suddenly make it a big deal for her.  Her being a human turned magician might have absolutely nothing to do with Makai.  She could have been there for the same reason as Marisa, to get more magic power.  And then EX stage happens.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on June 12, 2016, 04:32:26 am
Well, it comes down to whether you think she spent significant time there. If you go by the fanon that she was one of Shinki's creations, or an adopted child, it would have an influence on her.

BUT EVEN THEN: The past doesn't completely rule you. I always just went with the above, then assumed she escaped into Gensokyo for her own reasons and never saw the need to look back, which I feel is in character.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on June 12, 2016, 05:00:04 am
There was a bit of a debate on this a while ago, but here's my two cents.

ZUN says that if there are contradictions between PC98 and windows, accept windows. However, PMiSS is also known to be not 100% accurate. No one except Akyuu has ever mentioned Alice being human. No one's ever even alluded to it. It's not in any official profile, it's not in any print work, there is no evidence EXCEPT Akyuu's word. It is entirely possible that Akyuu is just wrong. It's happened before.

On top of that, there's tons of evidence that PC98 Alice = Windows Alice.

Firstly ZUN actually said they are the same person.

Secondly, they share the same abilities. I don't know why everyone forgets, but in MS stage 3, Alice used fairy-like familiars just like Windows Alice. In Windows canon, Alice is stated to be wary of using her grimoire due to it's power. She can use it, she just chooses not to. Hell, her Perfect Cherry Blossom profile says that she's a versatile magician, and only recently gained an interest in dolls. This whole "PC98 Alice is a grimoire user but Windows Alice is a doll magician" is just silly. Both versions of Alice have used dolls in game, and both versions can use the Grimoire.

Thirdly, there are multiple in game references to Alice and Reimu/Marisa having a history, alluding to MS. I won't go into the details, but just read the PCB dialogue.

Lastly, and this is a bit of a meta example, but in Soku Alice uses Grimoire of Alice as her theme.

Too many people just assume "Windows Alice is a human-turned-youkai but PC98 was born and raised in Makai therefor PC98 isn't valid." That isn't necessarily the case. It's way more blurry than that. It's not only possible, it's plausible that Windows Alice was never human in the first place.

Now on the flip side I'll admit; generally when Akyuu is wrong, it's made obvious. Usually there's an obvious reason as to why she'd be wrong, whether it's because:

This isn't how it is with Alice. There's no obvious reason for Alice to tell Akyuu she used to be human. There's no reason for Akyuu to assume that Alice used to be human. And in context, it wouldn't make sense for Akyuu to provide that kind of information if it were just speculation.

Another thing we have to keep in mind. ZUN's stance on PC98 has flip-flopped dramatically over the years. Sometimes he says it's absolutely canon, sometimes he says it's absolutely not, his latest statement was "it's canon as long as it doesn't contradict Windows" IIRC. It's entirely possible that ZUN originally meant for both Alices to be the same back when PCB was released, then changed his mind as the series progressed.

Because it's so blurry as to what we can trust and what we can't, there very well might not be an answer. As someone said in another thread, Gensokyo isn't real. ZUN might not have thought of a history for Alice, or he might have thought up one and changed his mind later on. The pieces might not fit together.

Personally I choose to believe that both Alices are the same and Akyuu is just wrong for whatever reason. I believe that because, besides this whole Alice thing, there are no contradictions between PC98 and Windows. But that's a rant for another time.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 12, 2016, 05:26:30 am
I do believe both Alice versions are the same being as well.  It makes sense both with the games' dialogue, and the profiles that accompany them.  Why is Alice described as being scared to go all out?  Because she did that once in MS Extra and Yuuka came and stomped all over her.

But there's no evidence against the origin Akyuu writes of, and I don't believe it contradicts anything in either the Windows or PC-98 games.  So I take it as it is.  Whether you believe she comes from Makai, Gensokyo, Romania, or wherever, she can still have been human at one point.  I like the Gensokyo version myself, but it's really a matter of opinion there.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on June 12, 2016, 07:16:46 am
If you assume PC-98 never happened, nothing requires any explaining at all. Just, you know, for the record.
True, it makes it might easier and removes any confusion. I mean, Marisa had Demon Wings in PoDD.

Makai doesn't have to be a major factor, either.  Alice was there, but so what?  Reimu has been there three times, that doesn't suddenly make it a big deal for her.  Her being a human turned magician might have absolutely nothing to do with Makai.  She could have been there for the same reason as Marisa, to get more magic power.  And then EX stage happens.
Not in relationship to Alice, but Makai was the place also where Byakuren was sealed and released by our heroines. And Byakuren is a magician too. Now whether she obtained/learned magic from/in Makai isn't mentioned anywhere either in her profile nor dialogues. It kind of strikes me curious that Alice and Byakuren are true magicians and have both been in contact with Makai.

@TresserT, The assumption people make "Windows Alice is a human-turned-youkai" is wrong because she isn't a youkai. About the 'nobody except Akyuu mentioned her being human' is bit confusing. Aya calls her part of the Magician race and therefore not human while saying she looks like a human. (See BAiJR interview). Unfortunately her dialogues in PCB are quite shallow to make anything out of it. She doesn't even make the "long time no see" comment at Marisa but mentions it with Reimu.

Alice was a doll user in PC98 too, this was mentioned at various places but only in PMiSS it was firmly confirmed her being very skilled doll user.

For now I think sticking with Clarste's approach would be considered most safe. Makes it easier to understand her design, personality and history. The rest will be always shrouded in mystery because: ZUN.



Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 12, 2016, 09:13:58 am
It is entirely possible that Akyuu is just wrong. It's happened before.

/me picks up a baseball bat.

We've been through this already. Could you please stop? This line of thinking can make whole PMiSS useless as a source. What would be the point of releasing it (for us, not in-universe) if it couldn't be trusted except for obvious cases?

There's no obvious reason for Alice to tell Akyuu she used to be human. There's no reason for Akyuu to assume that Alice used to be human. And in context, it wouldn't make sense for Akyuu to provide that kind of information if it were just speculation.

How do you draw the conclusion that Akyuu is wrong from this is beyond to me. Because it can be explained by Alice deciding to tell her that she's a human-turned-magician. There's no reason for her not to. It's likely not that big of a deal.

Now whether she obtained/learned magic from/in Makai isn't mentioned anywhere either in her profile nor dialogues.

She became magician before being imprisoned in Hokkai. Though it would be quite ironic if she got her magic from it.

It kind of strikes me curious that Alice and Byakuren are true magicians and have both been in contact with Makai.

Patchouli has no known ties to Makai. While this isn't ruled out, overgeneralizing still isn't a good idea.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on June 12, 2016, 10:04:15 am
We've been through this already. Could you please stop? This line of thinking can make whole PMiSS useless as a source. What would be the point of releasing it (for us, not in-universe) if it couldn't be trusted except for obvious cases?

To serve as an expression of what popular misconceptions are, and thus show us how the setting works with regards to bad information. Just because there are some parts that are incorrect doesn't mean the whole thing is now without worth, it just means one has to think about what they read.

Patchouli has no known ties to Makai. While this isn't ruled out, overgeneralizing still isn't a good idea.

Isn't Koakuma officially a Makaijin?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 12, 2016, 10:10:41 am
Isn't Koakuma officially a Makaijin?

No. Not like fandom cares, of course, but it's still just fanon, even if widely accepted.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 12, 2016, 10:11:45 am
Isn't Koakuma officially a Makaijin?

No, she's not. Makai wasn't mentioned again in the Windows series until UFO, and Koakuma herself barely even gets referenced in the first place.

Regarding PMiSS, I would think we're supposed to assume it's correct unless it contradicts something else we know, like how Akyuu is clearly wrong about the Lunarians in her articles. And if post-PC-98 stuff is supposed to take precedence over PC-98 stuff like someone else mentioned, it follows that there's no reason to believe that Akyuu is wrong about this specific fact.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 12, 2016, 10:24:17 am
I'd say that Alice actually wanted her article to mention her species (article subjects could review their articles, you know), and she's not the kind to lie about anything (if bullfinches are to be trusted ;)).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on June 12, 2016, 10:29:55 am
Oh right, Patchouli as a magician is also one hell of another story. As the SDM like suddenly was BOOM, summoned into Gensoukyo.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on June 12, 2016, 11:00:43 am
What is Keine's deal anyway? I'm assuming the villagers have no idea that she's a youkai, but her general position seems at complete odds with how Gensokyo's balance is shaping up as of late.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on June 12, 2016, 11:26:49 am
Our best knowledge of Keine comes from Aya's article on her. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Keine)  While it of course has its biases, the main thrust of it, that Keine is someone keeping the balance of belief and fear, is still sound and fits with what we know of the world.  In this article, she's against the agitating humans, while in Imperishable Night she's looking out against a threat from youkai.

In my opinion, her position as a teacher of children may make her more important to this balance than even Reimu or Yukari.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on June 12, 2016, 02:31:59 pm
To serve as an expression of what popular misconceptions are, and thus show us how the setting works with regards to bad information. Just because there are some parts that are incorrect doesn't mean the whole thing is now without worth, it just means one has to think about what they read.

I think what CyberAngel is getting at here is that PMiSS is not as unreliable as fans often contend. Akyuu can be unreliable, but in the instances where she's off-base, it's usually very obvious. So the dismissal or downplaying of what's in PMiSS casts too wide a net, and it's something we go through every time someone casts aspersions on PMiSS.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on June 12, 2016, 05:19:40 pm
We've been through this already. Could you please stop? This line of thinking can make whole PMiSS useless as a source. What would be the point of releasing it (for us, not in-universe) if it couldn't be trusted except for obvious cases?
Sigh. I never doubted PMiSS's validity as a whole. However, I can't see YOU'RE line of thinking. Any time there has been a contradiction between PMiSS and another work, we've accepted the other work or at least doubted Akyuu. Why is this different? Why do you automatically assume that, even though there are contradictions, Akyuu must be definitely 100% accurate this time? If Akyuu contradicted a Windows work, would you just look at it and say "Oh, the windows work must be wrong"? Before HM, people doubted Akyuu about Nitori being a racist. They said, we should take Nitori's in-game personality over Akyuu's description.

The only reason you wouldn't look at this with some scrutiny is if you've already decided in advance that PC98 isn't valid.

As for why ZUN would release it, as everyone knows it's an information dump. It's like I said, I'm not doubting every little thing Akyuu puts into it. I'm saying, here is a contradiction, don't just assume Akyuu is right. She didn't understand Lunarians were from the moon, this could also be a misunderstanding.
How do you draw the conclusion that Akyuu is wrong from this is beyond to me. Because it can be explained by Alice deciding to tell her that she's a human-turned-magician. There's no reason for her not to. It's likely not that big of a deal.
That was my point with that little snippet. I said, "Now on the flip side I'll admit; generally when Akyuu is wrong, it's made obvious. Usually there's an obvious reason as to why she'd be wrong, whether it's because: [reasons]". That was me admitting the counter point.

It seems like you only read the first couple sentences, assumed you knew what I was getting at, then only skimmed the rest.

The conclusion I reached at the end of that post was even "It's blurry. There's really no way to tell one way or the other. ZUN might have even changed his mind partway through the series." I said I personally choose to believe Akyuu is wrong, but there isn't really sufficient evidence for it. There just isn't sufficient evidence against it either.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on June 12, 2016, 05:47:29 pm
What is Keine's deal anyway? I'm assuming the villagers have no idea that she's a youkai
It's impossible for the villagers not to know she's a youkai, since her article in PMiSS outright says she's a therianthrope.

She's only half youkai (since therianthropes are considered human when not transformed, and Keine's therianthropy is an "acquired characteristic", which means she was a completely normal human at one point), and she's clearly on the villagers' side, so that's likely why no one cares.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Zil on June 12, 2016, 06:20:58 pm
I said I personally choose to believe Akyuu is wrong, but there isn't really sufficient evidence for it. There just isn't sufficient evidence against it either.
fyi nothing in MS contradicts Akyuu. afaik not a single piece of info about Alice presented in any work at any time is incongruous with anything else. This whole thing is really a false dichotomy. But clearly it's the same character or he wouldn't have given her the same name and design, etc. The only way to escape this is to outright assume pc-98 never happened at all (which is a fair perspective to take).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tiamat on June 12, 2016, 08:18:09 pm
Just who is she anyway?

I think she was once a member of a team of thieves that ended up lost in Gensokyo, then because the rest decided to ditch their lives as thieves which she loved, she studied magic and used it to kill them all.  It was at that point she stopped being human.   /Dolls in Pseudo Paradise  This goes along with Akyuu's statement about her origins, albeit with the actual (perhaps horrific) details in place. (that same article says "Alice looks like a doll, herself.", which when combined with the fact that Genoskyo means "Paradise", leads to the symbolism of "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise" = "Alice in Gensokyo".)


And um... I guess maybe she went to visit Makai at some point (The Ending of Dolls in Pseudo Paradise?) which explains why she's there for the PC-98 games.  Possibly.  *shrug*
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on June 13, 2016, 12:36:13 am
Before HM, people doubted Akyuu about Nitori being a racist. They said, we should take Nitori's in-game personality over Akyuu's description.

Quote from: Nitori's in-game personality
I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.
She sucks up to Reimu and Marisa and passive-aggressively asks them to solve her problems for her (with both of them complaining she's being way too transparent)... then later she complains about the help, saying she doesn't owe Marisa any favors because she "forced her way in".

And then in SA she's much less subtle about it, to the point where Marisa thinks Nitori is trying to get her killed. But again, she immediately turns polite and humble when talking to Yuugi... at least once she realises Yuugi can hear her.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 13, 2016, 02:37:55 am
Nitori's an interesting case where people totally misread her personality, somehow.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on June 13, 2016, 03:10:36 am
Well... I don't want to beat the topic into the ground but...
Nitori's an interesting case where people totally misread her personality, somehow.
My point is, at first people thought Nitori was a friend to humans and a generally nice girl, if a bit shy. Even though in hindsight we can say that's wrong, that was still the popular opinion for a while, and we thought the games showed us that.

Regardless of what the truth was, back then we thought the games pointed to Nitori being a good girl. Then when Akyuu contradicted that belief, we said "the games paint Nitori as a good girl, therefor Akyuu is wrong." That stance didn't change until HM came out and showed that Nitori is, in fact, not a nice girl at all.

I feel like I'm not explaining very well. I hope I'm getting my point across, though. I just feel like there's a double standard here because we're dealing with a PC98 work as opposed to a Windows work.

I guess I can't really say much about it, though. I can't exactly prove that more people accepted Nitori's "official" (wrong) personality over Akyuu's version back then. Maybe I just misunderstood what people thought back then.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 13, 2016, 03:40:22 am
It's explicitly a double standard, because PC-98 is considered "less" canon by everyone up to and including ZUN. Whether or not it happened at all could be considered a matter of interpretation, but even PC-98 positivists will normally admit that it contains some bits that need to be ignored to make sense with the Windows setting.

There are other cases where Akyuu is clearly and intentionally wrong, but Alice's origins don't seem to be one of them and there's no reason to suspect that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on June 13, 2016, 06:28:03 am
Regardless of what the truth was, back then we thought the games pointed to Nitori being a good girl. Then when Akyuu contradicted that belief, we said "the games paint Nitori as a good girl, therefor Akyuu is wrong." That stance didn't change until HM came out and showed that Nitori is, in fact, not a nice girl at all.

Moral of the story: stop assuming that Akyuu is wrong unless there's an actual reason to. Wishful thinking isn't one.

I just feel like there's a double standard here because we're dealing with a PC98 work as opposed to a Windows work.

Taking a Windows-era source over PC-98 one takes precedence over everything else. There IS a strong divide between the two, and the latter can be safely ignored for canon matters.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on June 13, 2016, 03:14:22 pm
Moral of the story: stop assuming that Akyuu is wrong unless there's an actual reason to. Wishful thinking isn't one.

...You've been really condescending this whole time, and I don't appreciate it.

That said I feel this topic has been safely beat into the ground, I think everyone understands my point even if they don't agree with it. I'll stop talking about it >_<
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on June 18, 2016, 01:49:34 am
Is there a list anyone on the internet of what urban myths each character has in ULIL? I've been searching for a while and i still can't find one.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on June 18, 2016, 04:25:58 am
Reimu
神秘!結界の巫女
Mystery! The Shrine Maiden of Kekkai (Boundaries)
Name of Occult Phenomenon: "Gap Woman"
Gap woman is an urban legend already in existence in Edo era, which Yukari is partially based on, about a woman in red watching people through a gap.
Occult Special: "Gap of the Great Hakurei Boundary"


Marisa
恐怖!学校の魔法使い
Horror! The School Magician
Name of Occult Phenomenon: "Seven Mysteries of the School"
Occult Special: True Horrors of the School (rotates through different objects)


Kasen
脅威!願いを訊く仙人
Menance! The Hermit Who Listens to Wishes
Name of Occult Phenomenon: "Monkey's Paw"
Occult Special: "Inescapable Monkey's Paw" (keep pressing the button to extend the arm, can be controlled with up and down buttons)
Ichirin & Unzan:
Occult Name: Hasshaku-sama (The Eight-Foot Tall Lady)
A brute force character with an all-overwhelming companion, Unzan. That is her.
Whatever disadvantages she faces, she can blow them away with a punch.
This time, she has acquired a spell that unleashes the power of Hasshaku-sama, entrapping the opponent in a closed space of curses.

Hijiri:
Occult Name: Turbo Babaa (Turbo Granny)
A character specializing in melee and close-up techniques, as if hand-to-hand combat is itself a pillar of her faith.
Her chanting system has functioned as a handicap on her, requiring special attacks to be prepared beforehand.
But in this game, she may freely choose which special attack to use, as long as she has chanting charges remaining. In addition, by prolonging her chanting, multiple charges can be stored.
Her Occult Attack "Silver Skyway" allows her to gallop back-and-forth through the sky at will.

Futo:
Occult Name: Banchou Sarayashiki

A technical character that shoots plates as her danmaku, and utilizes the plates deployed on screen as media for certain special attacks.
Positioning is crucial to Feng Shui. That is why her footwork is among the fastest.
Her Occult Attack is "Okiku Uppercut", which is strengthened by the number of plates she has broken. When the number reaches nine, its true value becomes apparent.

Miko:
Occult Name: Red Mantle, Blue Mantle

A jack-of-all-trades character who excels at both melee and projectiles.
Yet this is only a facade concealing her true power.
When hit by her Occult Attack "Red or Blue, Which Do You Want", the opponent will be forced to choose between red and blue, with red enhancing her melee attacks, and blue enhancing her projectiles.
Striking the oppoent with these enhancements in effect, this is where she truly shines.

Nitori:
Occult Name: Nessie, the Loch Ness Monster

This time, even Nitori has been drawn into the ball ruckus. Without sparing another thought for business, she entered the arena with her Occult Ball-powered invention, the Nessie.
Once deployed, the Nessie acts as an independent turret that provides fire support. It is however a double-edged sword, as she would lose the Occult Ball when its energy runs out.
How to make the most of it is all up to her.

Koishi:
Occult Name: Ms. Merry's Phone Call

A character with a never-seen-before feature: her attacks are readied unconsciously, then released automatically.
Using the ability thoughtlessly will bring her own demise, yet when properly managed, her counterattacks can be triggered faster than one can react.
Her Occult Attack is "I'm Coming to You, Right Now". She makes a phone call to the opponent nearby; when it hits, she will teleport and attack the opponent from behind.
Every time she makes a call, her signal range is expanded, until the opponent has nowhere to run.

Mamizou:
Occult Name: M.I.B.

She can grab her obake-danuki underlings to throw at the opponent.
However, the obake-danuki will retreat if they get hit.
So she must fight with deliberate restrain on her underlings' excesses.
Her Occult Attack is "Alien Capsule". She can deploy capsules containing her underlings, ready for surprise attacks at any moment.

Kokoro:
Occult Name: Kuchisake-onna (Slit-mouthed Woman)

An emotionally unstable character who can switch her mood with special attacks, changing the properties of her projectiles and other attacks with dizzying frequency.
Her Occult Attack "Aesthetic Counterattack" is an all-purpose counter technique that retaliates all opponent attacks, useable only once each round.
After one successful use, it will be replaced by a projectile attack composed of a blade of spiritual qi.
Fujiwara no Mokou - Blaze! Human Inferno
Occult Name : "Spontaneous Human Combustion Phenomenon" (No explanation needed, I guess)

An immortal human that can manipulate fire. Melee-type character utilizing flames, clad all over her body.
With a light footwork, she fights on close combat without regards on her own body.
Her Occult attack is "Spontaneous Human Combustion".
Using it will start to kindle her body in blue flames. Increases attack power at the expense of reducing health. However, she also has several moves that will use up her health, so use her regeneration skill "Resurrection" as a follow-up for that.

Sukuna Shinmyoumaru - Fake! Inchling in Green
Occult Name : "Little Green Men" (Almost certianly Liliput or Leprechauns, but it may refer to Xiaoluren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaoluren))

An inchling fighting with Needle swordsmanship and a mysterious mallet. Tiny, but she compensates with dynamic attacks and reach using her whole body. A combatant that circles around her opponent using flurry of attacks.
Her Occult attack is "The Little Green Men Tumbled".
Call upon green inchlings that will sneak and float over the opponent. When the opponent shows their back to them, they'll strike with ruthless attacks.
Shinmyoumaru's Occult Attack is called "The Little Green Men Tumbled" 「緑の小人さんが転んだ」.

It is based on a children's game, "Daruma ga koron da" ("the Daruma doll tumbled"), which is the Japanese equivalent of "Red light, green light" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statues_%28game%29#Darumasan_ga_Koronda). Daruma doll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daruma_doll) is the Japanese tumbling doll.

Similar to the game, the opponent will got attacked by the little green men if she has her back turned to them, something like that.

I don't have any nice quotes on Sumireko, but her occult phenomenon is ESP.

If there wasn't a list there is now XP

...They're also in each character's ULiL profile, so you can check there.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CrystalCreation on June 18, 2016, 07:34:18 am
I don't have any nice quotes on Sumireko, but her occult phenomenon is ESP.

Are you sure about this? ESP seems more like something she just …has, not something she gained through her occult balls. Her profile even calls her a “genuine psychic”.

Kasens victory quote against Sumireko seems to imply her actual urban legend is something she hasn’t shown us. If we take Sumirekos victory quote against herself seriously, then her urban legend could be the doppelganger. If that were true that would explain how in Reimus final scenario after Sumireko is defeated, a shadowy clone of her appears with one final spellcard. The shadowy figure that appeared at the end of the demo/prologue scenario might even be the same urban legend clone.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 18, 2016, 07:55:09 am
Sumireko actually does have a Doppelganger though. I don't think it's an Urban Legend, it's just part of how she travels to Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on June 20, 2016, 07:10:48 pm
Ok so there's this thing going around that's attracting some attention, some photographer named Charles Fréger recently starting collecting photos of Japanese cultural costumes for use in festivals/matsuris and whatever else shinto/mytho stuff, releasing them in a collection called Yokainoshima (land of youkai, go figure). There's quite a few youkai costumes in it as well.
This one costume caught my eye though: pic 1 (http://gadaboutmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Charles-Freger-Yokainoshima-3.jpg), pic 2 (http://natgeo.nikkeibp.co.jp/atcl/photo/16/060600014/09.jpg)
And I'm like, this kinda reminds me of doremy??
The caption, supposedly, that he put under it is: 富山県魚津市小川寺のビッチャル, and after briefly scanning around, noone in Japan knows what this youkai "bitcharu" is either, and the collection of this among other unique costumes and etc photos seem to be attracting some attention.

So I'm probably way off, but anyone know what this costume actually is from or is based off of? No references to anything called "bitcharu" I can find anywhere, so I don't even know if it's even supposed to be based on some actual youkai myth. If, however, on the small chance that ZUN did reference something as so absurdly obscure like this, that'd be pretty cool.

e: some relavent articles about Yokainoshima: 1 (http://gadaboutmag.com/charles-freger-yokainoshima/), 2 (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/proof/2016/05/charles-freger-yokainoshima/)
(the latter link, national geographic, doesn't seem to want to work for me, but someone might have better luck)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on June 20, 2016, 07:34:02 pm
Doremy is a baku. It says so in her official profile.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mr Jovial on June 24, 2016, 11:24:37 am
Are there any images/descriptions that show/describe the look of Hakugyokurou and Eientei? I looked at their respective pages on the wiki (Hakugyokurou (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hakugyokurou), Eientei (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Eientei)) but the images on those pages don't show very much. Have more detailed depictions ever been released?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tiamat on June 24, 2016, 12:45:54 pm
Are there any images/descriptions that show/describe the look of Hakugyokurou and Eientei? I looked at their respective pages on the wiki (Hakugyokurou (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hakugyokurou), Eientei (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Eientei)) but the images on those pages don't show very much. Have more detailed depictions ever been released?

Yuyuko's home is a location for a scene in SSIB (and, IIRC, a fighting game stage).  It's very... normal traditional Japanese Pagoda, though.  (assuming my memory is right.  Been like, a decade I think?)

Same goes for Eientei (SSIB, Inaba of the Moon and Earth, CiLR, maybe briefly in some fighting game endings and possibly at the end of a Forbidden Scrollery chapter where Reisen sees Eirin. I forget)

My memory could be wrong, though I recall both locations to be kinda boring, really.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Polaris on June 24, 2016, 05:16:59 pm
Ok so there's this thing going around that's attracting some attention, some photographer named Charles Fréger recently starting collecting photos of Japanese cultural costumes for use in festivals/matsuris and whatever else shinto/mytho stuff, releasing them in a collection called Yokainoshima (land of youkai, go figure). There's quite a few youkai costumes in it as well.
This one costume caught my eye though: pic 1 (http://gadaboutmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Charles-Freger-Yokainoshima-3.jpg), pic 2 (http://natgeo.nikkeibp.co.jp/atcl/photo/16/060600014/09.jpg)
And I'm like, this kinda reminds me of doremy??
The caption, supposedly, that he put under it is: 富山県魚津市小川寺のビッチャル, and after briefly scanning around, noone in Japan knows what this youkai "bitcharu" is either, and the collection of this among other unique costumes and etc photos seem to be attracting some attention.

So I'm probably way off, but anyone know what this costume actually is from or is based off of? No references to anything called "bitcharu" I can find anywhere, so I don't even know if it's even supposed to be based on some actual youkai myth. If, however, on the small chance that ZUN did reference something as so absurdly obscure like this, that'd be pretty cool.

e: some relavent articles about Yokainoshima: 1 (http://gadaboutmag.com/charles-freger-yokainoshima/), 2 (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/proof/2016/05/charles-freger-yokainoshima/)
(the latter link, national geographic, doesn't seem to want to work for me, but someone might have better luck)

Did some really deep digging. The costumes are apparently from the lion dance at Ogawa-ji (in Uozu, Toyama) and are called baba-men (ばば面) (source (http://senshoan.exblog.jp/d2016-03-12/)). Apparently in the Houryaku Era (c. 1751~1763) there existed some heroes named Moriki San'emon (森木三右ヱ門) and Joudo Rokubee (十王堂六兵衛), and the costumes are based off of them (source (http://jpsatobunka.net/meisan/toyama/toyama-05.html)). I can't find anything else on them so it seems like they're local (and maybe even specific to the lion dance only). I have no idea why they were labeled as biccharu, though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on June 24, 2016, 06:23:00 pm
Wow, good job, and thank you! I'm not at all surprised that I was way off. Nor am I surprised that this 'biccharu' name he derived from somewhere was completely off, which was what sparked my curiosity in the first place.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on June 26, 2016, 02:33:34 am
Someone said Sumireko's urban legend is supposed to be about end of the world prophecies.  Her Last Word does look like the world is being destroyed by a giant laser beam.  Explains why her moves involve falling architectures as well.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mr Jovial on June 26, 2016, 09:40:27 am
blah blah blah are there depictions of Hakugyokurou and Eientei
So I looked at the PMiSS page about Hakugyokurou (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Hakugyokurou) and thought one of the translations on the page might be a bit off.
Original text:
Quote
建物の中は一般には公開していない為、詳細は判らないが、本殿は枯山水の中庭を囲むようにコの字型になっていると言う。
Translation given:
Quote
As the inside of the building is generally not open to the public, not much is known about it, but it's said that the inner sanctuary is surrounded by a large, U-shaped rock garden.
Could someone check if it's actually the garden that is U shaped? Looking at various official images, including the one on the PMiSS page, it seems more likely that the building is U shaped. I also threw it into Google translate which agreed with me though I'm skeptical about blindly believing that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on June 26, 2016, 10:12:30 am
Could someone check if it's actually the garden that is U shaped? Looking at various official images, including the one on the PMiSS page, it seems more likely that the building is U shaped. I also threw it into Google translate which agreed with me though I'm skeptical about blindly believing that.
You're correct, it's the 'inner sanctuary' that surrounds the rock garden in a U-shape, as, I think, is commonly depicted
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 26, 2016, 10:16:04 am
it's literally in the picture

Also worth noting is that "rock garden" isn't a very memorable description. It's basically a traditional zen garden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_rock_garden), which is probably more evocative for most people.

EDIT: fixinated
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mr Jovial on June 26, 2016, 02:25:06 pm
Thanks both of you C:
it's literally in the picture
I was a bit confused by this image (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/File:YuyukoStage.jpg) and this image (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/File:Th105Hakugyokurou.jpg) which could mean that the building wasn't U shaped. From what I understand though, it's just a rather short U and the second image is one of the ends of the U rather than in the middle like all the others.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on June 29, 2016, 11:36:32 am
Is there a Touhou fangame inspired by Star Fox?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on June 29, 2016, 01:56:08 pm
The closest you'll get is the one based off After Burner Climax.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on June 29, 2016, 03:05:14 pm
Is there any reason why Youyou Kengeki Musou is often referred to as Dat Youmu game?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on June 29, 2016, 03:15:55 pm
Because no one knows what Youyou Kengeki Musou is, but everyone knows what you mean when you say  Dat Youmu Game.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on June 29, 2016, 08:34:17 pm
Its just nicer to say.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on June 30, 2016, 12:51:19 am
The closest you'll get is the one based off After Burner Climax.
Which is?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on June 30, 2016, 01:06:11 am
Which is?
This. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISSSTltujGw)
You can find a download link by searching the game's name, Master Burner Climax, on google. I'd give you the link but I'm not sure if we're allowed to give download links to fangames and such.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on June 30, 2016, 04:06:02 am
There's also that 3D version of Touhou 6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ngfE279uk
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on July 07, 2016, 04:16:23 pm
No fans see it fitting to include Junko in the Old Maid Alliance?  I think she qualifies to be in that group, but I have yet to see any fan arts depicting her with the existing members.  But then, the fandom seems to have lost interest in the Old Maid Alliance as a whole...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 07, 2016, 04:25:02 pm
No fans see it fitting to include Junko in the Old Maid Alliance?  I think she qualifies to be in that group, but I have yet to see any fan arts depicting her with the existing members.  But then, the fandom seems to have lost interest in the Old Maid Alliance as a whole...

I don't understand what question you're asking here or how it can be answered. Did you mean to post this in Misc Thoughts and Commentary or something?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on July 07, 2016, 04:33:03 pm
I don't understand what question you're asking here or how it can be answered. Did you mean to post this in Misc Thoughts and Commentary or something?
No, I did not post this here by mistake.  This is probably a question that only those who dwell deep into the series's fanon will understand.

Old Maids Alliance is a fan term where the fandom groups together some of the more matured women in the series.  It's like a reverse of Team 9.  Consistent members include Yukari, Yuyuko, Byakuren, Eirin, and Kanako.  Yuuka, Shinki, and Mima are occasionally put into the group.  Basically, the group is for characters the fandom think are very mature and wise-looking and look like they are in their 30s.

EDIT: Did come across a couple of fan arts that include Junko in the group, but the fact still stands that it's uncommon to see her with the others.  Again, this is really only something that people who are familiar with all the fan stuff and memes of the series will understand.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 07, 2016, 04:41:14 pm
No, I did not post this here by mistake.  This is probably a question that only those who dwell deep into the series's fanon will understand.

Old Maids Alliance is a fan term where the fandom groups together some of the more matured women in the series.  It's like a reverse of Team 9.  Consistent members include Yukari, Yuyuko, Byakuren, Eirin, and Kanako.  Yuuka, Shinki, and Mima are occasionally put into the group.  Basically, the group is for characters the fandom think are very mature and wise-looking and look like they are in their 30s.

EDIT: Did come across a couple of fan arts that include Junko in the group, but the fact still stands that it's uncommon to see her with the others.  Again, this is really only something that people who are familiar with all the fan stuff and memes of the series will understand.

Uh thanks for the explanation that only Troo Fanz will know what you're talking about, but I didn't just get here yesterday.

Your question is still unclear. Are you asking if any fans make such fanart of the Old Maids with Junko included? Or are you presuming no one does, and asking why? The former is probably answerable by searching, the latter doesn't seem like it can be answered without telepathy.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on July 07, 2016, 04:42:43 pm
Uh thanks for the explanation that only Troo Fanz will know what you're talking about, but I didn't just get here yesterday.

Your question is still unclear. Are you asking if any fans make such fanart of the Old Maids with Junko included? Or are you presuming no one does, and asking why? The former is probably answerable by searching, the latter doesn't seem like it can be answered without telepathy.
Both, but like I said earlier, I finally came across a couple.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on July 07, 2016, 07:05:19 pm
No, I did not post this here by mistake.  This is probably a question that only those who dwell deep into the series's fanon will understand.
lmao did you really say this

The BBAs aren't just the "more mature ladies", it's specifically making a joke at a stereotypical notion of old women and applying it to those characters. It's almost literally "granny". Seiga, Yuuka, Iku, Shinki, Mima, Komachi, and so on don't fall into this joke because they aren't played off as those kinds of characters; usually they're considered onee-san, lady next door, or at worst housewife or motherly, which is still some degrees off of the whole babaa joke. Even though Junko literally has had a kid, she still doesn't fall into the babaa stereotype as far most of the fandom has concluded.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on July 08, 2016, 03:05:24 am
lmao did you really say this

The BBAs aren't just the "more mature ladies", it's specifically making a joke at a stereotypical notion of old women and applying it to those characters. It's almost literally "granny". Seiga, Yuuka, Iku, Shinki, Mima, Komachi, and so on don't fall into this joke because they aren't played off as those kinds of characters; usually they're considered onee-san, lady next door, or at worst housewife or motherly, which is still some degrees off of the whole babaa joke. Even though Junko literally has had a kid, she still doesn't fall into the babaa stereotype as far most of the fandom has concluded.
Tengukami didn't get what I said, so it shows that it's not something everyone understands.

Some fan arts do include Yuuka, Shinki, and Mima in the group.  And I did come across a couple of BBA fan arts that include Junko.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Onion on July 08, 2016, 05:12:58 am
Change of pace!
What, exactly, does it mean to capture a spell card?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on July 08, 2016, 05:19:58 am
No body knows. Spell Cards in general are one of Gensokyo's greatest mystery.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: yoshimo on July 08, 2016, 07:39:51 am
I'm mostly convinced that "capturing a spellcard" is purely game jargon. Nowhere have I seen an official work ever refer to "capturing a spellcard."

So, I guess capturing a spellcard in the literal sense is to weaken the spellcard border to the point that it breaks before the allotted time passes (unless it's a time-out spellcard) without dying or using any spellcards (or other "bombs") of your own.
I suppose that in a more canonical sense, capturing a spellcard could be compared to how we say we "own" something upon performing exceptionally.

Of course, if anyone has a source where the characters do refer to capturing spellcards, the actual case could be different.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 08, 2016, 09:04:53 am
Tengukami didn't get what I said, so it shows that it's not something everyone understands.

I understand the Old Maids running gag just fine; it was trying to find a coherent question in your post I was having trouble with. Jesus...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on July 08, 2016, 09:29:16 am
TBH I don't know what was actually being asked either, I just disagree that Junko somehow "should" be labeled as a BBA character, as the fandom has largely settled on her not being one. This kind of thing is necessarily de facto, so if people don't depict her as such in derivative works then that's that.

Anyways, what I found funny was that anyone would talk about BBAs as though it's some hardcore obscure thing not just anyone would know, when it's really one of the most common fandom jokes surrounding those characters.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 08, 2016, 02:31:28 pm
Anyways, what I found funny was that anyone would talk about BBAs as though it's some hardcore obscure thing not just anyone would know, when it's really one of the most common fandom jokes surrounding those characters.

Yeah exactly. Like being explained at about yukkuris or something.

Now I actually have a question! I'm re-reading CiLR, chapter by chapter, and fell upon this quote from Eirin:
Quote
I also had been the teacher of two princess sisters since they were very young - princesses other than Princess Kaguya, with whom I now live. The two princesses were my distant relatives. To put it in human terms, one was the wife of a grandnephew of mine, while the other was the wife of their son.

First of all, ew. Second of all, have these husbands appeared in or been mentioned again in other Touhou works? Could be my search skills are off, but I'm very curious to know if their existence has been demonstrated or implied elsewhere.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on July 08, 2016, 05:44:56 pm
Now I actually have a question! I'm re-reading CiLR, chapter by chapter, and fell upon this quote from Eirin:
Quote
I also had been the teacher of two princess sisters since they were very young - princesses other than Princess Kaguya, with whom I now live. The two princesses were my distant relatives. To put it in human terms, one was the wife of a grandnephew of mine, while the other was the wife of their son.
First of all, ew. Second of all, have these husbands appeared in or been mentioned again in other Touhou works?
Basically, no.
I'm very curious to know if their existence has been demonstrated or implied elsewhere.
Basically, this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16752.msg1204720.html#msg1204720).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on July 09, 2016, 06:45:32 am
Yeah, its a mythology joke about Omoikane, Tamayori, and Toyotama.

As for the BBA, while the simple answer is that Junko just doesn't act like an old lady, there's also the fact that the original BBA was based on a pun in their names. Yukari, Eirin, and Kanako all have the kanji 八 in their surnames (the 'ya' in Yakumo, Yagokoro, and Yasaka). They also happen to act older, and "old hag" can be written as  ババ, which you'll note looks awfully similar. There's obviously no hard and fast rule for this, and Byakuren became an honorary member at some point later on, but the point is just that it originated as a specific joke, not just an arbitrary collection of characters.

But yeah, Junko doesn't act like she's all that old. In fact, she seems somewhat childish and is often portrayed as such, despite explicitly being a mother.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on July 09, 2016, 06:53:31 am
First of all, ew.
Shinto Myth, and other Mythologys as well, often have a trend of Gods marring and having sex with their family members. It reflects the culture. Incest was common in feudal japan. And, well, the Lunarians are based off Shinto gods.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on July 09, 2016, 07:10:32 am
In Catholic doctrine, God impregnated his own mother and fathered himself. Kinda sorta technically. It's that sort of joke about mythology.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on July 09, 2016, 10:23:50 am
Incest is pretty common in most creation myths, because there generally aren't all that many options.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 09, 2016, 11:22:48 am
I mean, yeah. There's a footnote right there in CiLR that explains the reference. Was more asking if the husbandos have appeared elsewhere in Touhou lore.

Am also aware of the existence of incest amongst deities the world over. Still squicks me out.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TableCloth on July 09, 2016, 12:45:35 pm
Am also aware of the existence of incest amongst deities the world over. Still squicks me out.
My brain is fucked up enough to not feel disgusted.

Anyway, since ZUN does not release a new game this year, will we get a new one next year for sure? Or is there any chance that things will go south (is that how you westerner call it? I kinda forget ^^;) and we won't get our Touhou 16 next year?

I mostly just hope that the next Touhou will make up for the wreck that is DDC and LoLK
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on July 09, 2016, 01:29:38 pm
I mean, yeah. There's a footnote right there in CiLR that explains the reference. Was more asking if the husbandos have appeared elsewhere in Touhou lore.

Pretty sure no. That's the only time they're mentioned.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 09, 2016, 03:01:10 pm
Pretty sure no. That's the only time they're mentioned.

Thank you.

Suppose it's to be expected. Love the way he folds history and legends into Gensokyo.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: yoshimo on July 09, 2016, 07:04:13 pm
Anyway, since ZUN does not release a new game this year, will we get a new one next year for sure? Or is there any chance that things will go south (is that how you westerner call it? I kinda forget ^^;) and we won't get our Touhou 16 next year?

When it comes to game development, never expect anything by a certain time.
However, I can say that ZUN lately has been releasing main games on a two-year basis, so it is likely that Touhou 16 will be released around August 2017.
If he doesn't, it's still not really cause for concern. He used to release the games annually, so it wouldn't be the first time he increased production times.
That of course won't stop the majority of the fanbase from pulling a Seija...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on July 26, 2016, 11:12:46 am
Is there a way to see/or extract the ending dialogue in the official Touhou game without actually playing the game? I am going to use it to compare the translation with another wiki.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on July 26, 2016, 03:04:51 pm
Is there a way to see/or extract the ending dialogue in the official Touhou game without actually playing the game? I am going to use it to compare the translation with another wiki.

The Touhou Patch Center (https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Touhou_Patch_Center) should have all the dialog ripped straight from the game, including endings. In case you're unaware of this, the project was meant to create a self-updating patch that reads a wiki whenever it boots up, so it has all the dialog in multiple languages.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 26, 2016, 03:46:17 pm
I have a friend in Japan right now, who has been tasked with buying a copy of LoLK for me, but he has been having trouble finding it. He says he has been to Akihabara and seen loads of console games, but no Touhou.

Where do you recommend he go, specifically, i.e., what shop or chain store should he visit? Honestly have no idea how it all works.

e: Disregard, he's got it sorted. Also thanks to Sect in IRC!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on August 02, 2016, 11:09:19 am
Are akyuu, kosuzu, & unshou would be able to use spell card ?

Does a normal(not marisa "normal") human needs to have certain talent in magic/mystical/supernatural to some extent to be able to utilize the spell card rule/system?
or it can be just your mediocre everyday average joe human who been living in the human village?

Regardless of the requirement, how do you make your spellcard?
just make a drawing of it, give name, and then just declare "unshou super special - unshou pellet fishies" and then just pew pew ? (<-half joking)

If you own made a goddess or youkai as a sax-slave allies can you borrow their power for your spellcard with their permission/oath/blackmailing regardless whether or not you are a shrine maiden(or guy-miko if that a thing) or shikigami master ?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 02, 2016, 11:42:05 am
There's no indication that Spell Cards are anything but a formality for the rules of the duel. What the Spell Card actually does is up to the user. That being said, it doesn't seem to be the case that just anyone can use "magic"-like danmaku, but many arbitrary physical objects also count as valid danmaku so the point seems to be more that you give meaning to whatever you're throwing. If you threw a dodgeball as though you were actually playing dodgeball (which you kind of are), that would count as danmaku. In that sense, maybe those characters could make Spell Cards for something, but considering they probably don't intend to duel in the first place it seems kind of pointless.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on August 02, 2016, 06:54:31 pm
I don't think everyone can shoot magical bullets for no reason, but it doesn't seem to be something that's all that difficult to learn. You don't need to be a special person, you just need to invest the time in it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on August 04, 2016, 12:46:08 pm
What causes danmaku or spell card battle to be non-lethal? Did the draft of spell card rule itself create a magical barrier that rendered all bullets non-lethal? Or all characters just happen to have 2 types of bullets: One is deadly for in case of emergency but the other one isn't.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on August 04, 2016, 02:02:06 pm
It's probably one of those unanswerable questions, like asking why the humans (except Akyuu) don't age normally.
We'll never know for sure, but i think the "magic that prevents deadly injuries" option is the one making more sense.
It could even explain why they need to actually use paper cards to declare attacks: it's the magic in the spell cards themsleves that makes it non-lethal, somehow.
ZUN once said death can still happen in SC duels, though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on August 04, 2016, 02:25:19 pm
ZUN once said death can still happen in SC duels, though.
Was it something along the lines of "death due to sheer pain" or something else entirely? I heard something like that before, but can't quite remember from where.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on August 04, 2016, 02:39:26 pm
IIRC, it was literally "death can rarely still happen in SC duels". Was in an interview.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on August 04, 2016, 05:12:59 pm
Mokou dies repeatedly during a spellcard duel.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hope ♦ Metal on August 09, 2016, 01:01:56 pm
It's probably one of those unanswerable questions, like asking why the humans (except Akyuu) don't age normally.
We'll never know for sure, but i think the "magic that prevents deadly injuries" option is the one making more sense.
It could even explain why they need to actually use paper cards to declare attacks: it's the magic in the spell cards themsleves that makes it non-lethal, somehow.
ZUN once said death can still happen in SC duels, though.
You could get stabbed by knives flying at you or melt from the heat of a freaking sun. Clearly there has to be something making these things not deadly otherwise Reimu should have died several times by now. (Even though it probably wouldn't even make a difference) Maybe everyone is made of titanium or something. That would explain how Patchouli doesn't die from getting crushed by a giant Suika in the fighting games. (Or getting punched in the face by Tenshi or Remillia or anyone else that lifts)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 14, 2016, 07:49:30 pm
Why do people in gensokyo even like Reimu? Aside from HS, it seems that Reimu is always grumpy and spends most of her time just being a total asshat to everyone and everything. And yet, everyone LOVES her, except for Kasen, why?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on August 14, 2016, 09:31:25 pm
Reimu just being a complete asshole?  I don't think that's accurate.  Like many other Touhou characters, her duty is paramount to her.  In this case, her only function is to resolve incidents and defeat youkai.  So yeah, she's gonna run around beating up people, and she's going to be tired of their shit.
But the duty is not all there is to her.  We've seen her other face a million times: at the end of games, with the fairies and Kosuzu, and even through Miko's power.  Reimu is someone who will accept absolutely anyone, who values her friends, and who wants peace more than anything.  She can't admit any of this at all, even to herself, because it is in direct opposition to her duty as the incident resolver.  But it's there, and Marisa calls her on it multiple times.
Reimu's neglect of being a proper shrine maiden is the main beef people like Kasen, Rinnosuke, and Keine have with her.  To me, it's simply because it's completely irrelevant to who she is, other than the flavor of her powers.
The greed though, that's just her being a typical Gensokyo jerk.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 15, 2016, 04:31:40 am
Well, maybe not a complete asshole. But, while she can have her nice moments, those are really rare and outweighed by the bad. Take ALL of WaHH, for example. She's not just an asshole in that she doesn't keep her shrine in a good state, but also in every single way imaginable, like that chapter were she beat up poor Kosgasa just because she didn't want to pay for her needles.
There was the happy ending in the three fairies manga, but that was only after years of Reimu beating the hell out of them. And she only did that just so she could manipulate them into making her money. Seriously, she only does nice things for money, like when she brought Reisen 2 to Eirin and demanded a cash reward.

But the thing i'm hang up on is, why do people put up with her so much? Despite her continuing to beat innocent Youkai up (You can not justify all of her beatings as she doing her job, see that Bird Youkai who got beaten and then stolen from by reimu for no reason.) just for the sake of it, youkai always go to her parties, despite her being a huge jerkface. It makes her look like a mary sue.

To me, it's simply because it's completely irrelevant to who she is, other than the flavor of her powers.
The Hakurei Shrine is necessary for Gensokyo to survive, and its completely old and worn out. For all we know, Gensokyo's balance could be on the line because of this.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on August 15, 2016, 05:23:40 am
Reimu isn't particularly well liked. The majority of humans don't care about her. Youkai like her because youkai enjoy fighting, conflict and partying, all of which happens frequently around her shrine.

And beating up youkai is her job, regardless of what they're doing. Youkai are things that feed on conflict with humans. Keeping that alive is one of her duties, and though admittedly she can be overzealous about that, it is literally just because it's her job. As Miko noted at the end of SoPM, Reimu would prefer for Gensokyo to have a peace that required no violence. But that just isn't possible due to the very nature of the things that live there.

The Hakurei Shrine is necessary for Gensokyo to survive, and its completely old and worn out. For all we know, Gensokyo's balance could be on the line because of this.
The shrine itself is irrelevant. It gets destroyed numerous times during SWR, after all, and Reimu even thinks about making its destruction and reconstruction an annual thing in that same game.
Which, btw, means that the shrine really isn't old at all. Assuming SWR was really the last time it was destroyed, it's only more or less 9 years old.
And it's never really portrayed as being worn out, dunno where you took that from.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on August 15, 2016, 05:48:45 am
Oh, there's certainly a bit of the Sue in her.  Reimu's the Effortless Protagonist, after all.  But that position is manufactured by Gensokyo's metaphysics and the spell card rules.  And as I said, the whole purpose of her existence is to defeat youkai.  If a random youkai appears, you can probably guess what she's gonna do, even if her inner character doesn't like it.  Sometimes that makes her a hero, sometimes that makes her an asshole.
The Hakurei Shrine is necessary for Gensokyo to survive, and its completely old and worn out. For all we know, Gensokyo's balance could be on the line because of this.
In my opinion, that neglected status of the shrine is actually vital.  Reimu's role in the balance is huge, since she's the one who "protects" the humans.  They can't have her distracted by actually having a god to serve or things like that.  Reimu being a shrine maiden is like Marisa's broomstick, she doesn't really need it, but it's something that gives her pride.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on August 15, 2016, 06:04:44 am
Why are people still using the term "Mary sue" in this here year of our lord 2k16

It has had no meaning other than "female character I don't like" for a long time now

Besides, Reimu doesn't even fit the classical definition
The narrative doesn't bend to her will, she constantly ends up as the butt of jokes, outside of incidents she hardly acomplishes what she sets out to do, etc
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on August 15, 2016, 07:04:07 am
Speaking of WaHH, remember that at one point (chapter 8? I don't remember anymore), Reimu straight up lectures Kasen that she has to treat youkai seriously because youkai need to be taken seriously as fearsome entities.

That goes into the real reason to like and respect Reimu. She knows what she's doing, and takes it as seriously as she needs to. Not to mention people (Or at least me) enjoys the idea of her being a war-weary veteran who has done this business over a dozen times now and really just wants everyone to get along, and gets disappointed when someone bright spark has to cause a problem.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on August 31, 2016, 07:05:04 am
If yukari open a portal gap in a person limb then move both the separated part then close the gap, would that sever the limb just like being cut physically?
Or the limb would stay intact as if the gap are just a projected hologram? assuming no object traversing the gap

Has it ever been done something like that? i havent explored all the material.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 31, 2016, 08:10:06 am
According to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Yukari's gaps can only be entered through by Yukari, but yet SSIB has her open gaps so that other people can go through them. Personally i presume its the later that is true, as while Heida isn't wrong about everything like 90% of the fanbase seems to think, its not too implausible to assume she just got the info wrong or Yukari lied to her. So i would say the answer is yes, she can cut peoples arm off with her gaps (she's creepy like that).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on August 31, 2016, 08:54:30 am
"No one can follow her through the gaps" probably means you cannot do it unless she wants to, as in "she'd close it before you do it". And if you try, pray you aren't in the middle when she does it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Maple on August 31, 2016, 06:54:40 pm
Was there a source where ZUN speaks about the game making process, that he wants everything to fit together so that's why he always draws new character art every game? Maybe an interview or something?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on August 31, 2016, 08:50:37 pm
Was there a source where ZUN speaks about the game making process, that he wants everything to fit together so that's why he always draws new character art every game? Maybe an interview or something?
Regarding the "making everything fit together" thing, ZUN did mention that in the interview part of that Touhou coverage by NHK from last year (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVBdhADeAAE). Likewise for the making of the games. Heck, questions pertaining to the develoment of the game tend to be asked in pretty much any interview with ZUN. So yeah, there you go. I can't say much about the relevance of the new character art, though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lollipop on September 06, 2016, 12:24:40 am
Not sure if this is the most proper thread, but it seems like the best thread to put this in to me  :derp:

Recently, I've been looking for Touhou plushes (because I like soft toys) and the prices for them are quite high. The FumoFumo plushes are around ~ $70 - $100 US. (And I haven't been successful in finding other brands).

Not sure why they're so expensive. If someone could fill me in on that, and maybe also tell me about a cheaper alternative, that would be great  :)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on September 06, 2016, 01:41:48 am
Fumos are expensive because they had limited stock. Sometimes they get reprinted but that's still pretty rare. More recent ones are still available at retail price, but that's currently limited to Kourindo Marisa, Kourindo Sakuya, and maybe SWR Reisen.

There aren't any official alternatives at the moment though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lollipop on September 06, 2016, 01:57:49 am
Fumos are expensive because they had limited stock. Sometimes they get reprinted but that's still pretty rare. More recent ones are still available at retail price, but that's currently limited to Kourindo Marisa, Kourindo Sakuya, and maybe SWR Reisen.

There aren't any official alternatives at the moment though.

Where would a good place to buy them from be? (Excluding your service)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on September 06, 2016, 03:13:44 am
Akiba-Hobby, just off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on September 20, 2016, 11:08:26 pm
If Yoshika can eat anything, does that mean she can eat poisonous things with no ill effects?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on September 20, 2016, 11:47:47 pm
Probably, she's a zombert after all, so less pesky biology to get in the way.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on September 21, 2016, 12:27:28 am
Of course she can eat poisonous things. It'd be weird if she couldn't, being undead and all. That doesn't even have anything to do with her ability, however that works.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on October 13, 2016, 03:18:21 am
Since Junko is a divine spirit, does that make her a ghost (spirit of the dead) or a phantom (naturally-existing spirit)?  Or is she something else entirely?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 13, 2016, 04:14:22 am
Neither really. Divine spirits are gods more than anything else; they were humans that are thought of as gods and worshiped after death. Kanako is also a divine spirit, being worshiped as a god based on a legend that was originally human. In Junko's case ZUN kind of used "divine spirit" as what's closest, since it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what she is. She's definitely the spirit of a human, but rather than being worshiped as a god, it's that her resentment overwhelmed her existence and her nature as a human was lost, leaving only the "kami" nature of her resentment. It's once again a small commentary on how her exact origin has been lost to stories of her.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on October 13, 2016, 05:52:15 am
So did she have to literally die to become one?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 13, 2016, 06:34:59 am
Well, considering the story is of her as a human, it would be assumed that she died at some point, but it isn't all that relevant since it's her story that outlives her. As to why she got super purification powers and didn't just become a vengeful spirit of sorts (which her story makes it seem like she should, almost) I can't really say.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phasm on October 13, 2016, 10:53:14 am
Just thought of something a few days ago about Kaguya. If Kaguya's ability is the manipulation of eternity, would it be plausible that Kaguya can revive dead people and youkai? Also would Kaguya be able to make others immortal without the Hourai Elixer, just with her powers?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PapilLionesskort on October 13, 2016, 11:01:22 am
EDIT: I somehow posted the original reply in the wrong thread. Carry on.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on October 13, 2016, 11:28:08 am
Just thought of something a few days ago about Kaguya. If Kaguya's ability is the manipulation of eternity, would it be plausible that Kaguya can revive dead people and youkai? Also would Kaguya be able to make others immortal without the Hourai Elixer, just with her powers?
She can make things indestructible, but reviving something would be more like reversing time than manipulating eternity. She could make corpses eternally unrotting, though.
She could also make others immortal without the elixir, because they would stop changing in the first place. The elixir was only Kaguya being bored and curious, but it also serves as a device to give others (Mokou, Chang'e) immortality even if Kaguya isn't directly involved. And to tie Kaguya's whole story to actual mythology, where a immortality elixir was present.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 13, 2016, 12:11:43 pm
Just thought of something a few days ago about Kaguya. If Kaguya's ability is the manipulation of eternity, would it be plausible that Kaguya can revive dead people and youkai?
No. It's always presented as "eternity" being the same as an "instant". There aren't really any connections between her ability and resurrection, outside of the obvious one being that the Hourai Elixir preserves the soul as-is forever.

Also would Kaguya be able to make others immortal without the Hourai Elixer, just with her powers?
Something like that isn't necessarily out of the question, but we don't have any instances of her ability being used in any kind of similar way. We know she can target objects, but the "eternity" experienced by Eientei to make it unchanging and making a soul eternal are kinda different things. Was everything in Eientei immortal by virtue of being under her power? Probably not?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on October 13, 2016, 02:19:29 pm
Just thought of something a few days ago about Kaguya. If Kaguya's ability is the manipulation of eternity, would it be plausible that Kaguya can revive dead people and youkai? Also would Kaguya be able to make others immortal without the Hourai Elixer, just with her powers?
1. Not very likely.

2. Kaguya can recreate the environment of the Lunar Capital (where things don't age or decay), and was doing this to Eientei until the events of IN. She has also "enchanted" an udonge with this power to prevent it from blooming, but seems to believe that it will wear off as she herself becomes more impure.
So presumably "yes, but she needs to actively maintain their immortality, will eventually lose the power to do this, and can only prevent death from natural causes anyway". And it seems unlikely that she'd agree to do it in the first place, given that she already rejected that kind of life herself.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on October 14, 2016, 04:31:43 am
The Hourai Elixir uses her power as one of its "ingredients", so it's definitely related to immortality but probably not enough on its own. Remember that "enough power to manipulate X" does not mean they can freely control X in all its forms. Even Yukari, with power over boundaries, can't simply waltz through the Lunar Capital's barrier. Each character has specific limitations that are generally left vague until ZUN brings it up in a later work.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phasm on October 15, 2016, 10:30:41 pm
Sanae said in Moutain of Faith that shrine maidens will eventually become gods... has Reimu become a God yet?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: zcpu on October 16, 2016, 12:22:31 am
ZUN gives out a special thanks to "ant" and "fang".
Who are they?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on October 16, 2016, 01:31:52 am
Personal friends of him, duh.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 16, 2016, 03:27:26 am
Sanae said in Moutain of Faith that shrine maidens will eventually become gods... has Reimu become a God yet?
No she doesn't. She just claims she's an arahitogami, and explains that humans worshiping gods can become worshiped as gods themselves, and that shrine maidens can become gods in this way.

The point is establishing that Sanae, a priestess that channels the power of the gods she worships, can perform miracles and potentially be treated as a living god; an arahitogami. In the outside world that was somewhat the case, but in Gensokyo people see her as the human she is, that happens to be able to channel power from a few gods. People don't really give her faith, and so she has barely any power as an arahitogami.

EDIT: Hey this pointed me towards an error in her SoPM article. Win.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Ripaah on October 30, 2016, 07:47:23 pm
In Double Dealing Character, when you beat Raiko with Sakuya A, this dialogue happens:

Sakuya: "If there was a blade that was desecrated by the Mallet's power and started causing problems... If that blade changed hands,
would that mean the magic power would be changed?"

Raiko: "Hmm, let's see... If the user had a strong spirit, then probably. But since the Mallet's magic is still intact, its magic could affect you."

Sakuya: "I-I was just speaking hypothetically. "

Raiko: "I know you're hiding it. The blade in your hand... It's suffering. "

WHAT THE HELL SHE MEANING WITH THIS? I know that Sakuya has a lot of conspiracy around her character, but I don't understand why Raiko says this. Here the original line: 隠したって判るわよ その手の剣……苦しんでいるもの
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 31, 2016, 02:32:21 am
Well, kind of the point of the A-types is that their tools have been slowly turning into tsukumogami due to the Mallet's magic. The magic corrupted them, and by using them it slowly corrupted the player as well, hence why they were all bloodthirsty. That's all it's referring to.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Failure McFailFace on October 31, 2016, 04:11:43 am
Well, kind of the point of the A-types is that their tools have been slowly turning into tsukumogami due to the Mallet's magic. The magic corrupted them, and by using them it slowly corrupted the player as well, hence why they were all bloodthirsty. That's all it's referring to.
At what point does a tsukumogami get a humanoid form in Gensokyo? Does it have to reach a certain age, or does it just... happen?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 31, 2016, 04:30:59 am
i dunno lol
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on October 31, 2016, 06:22:12 am
i dunno lol

According to Japanese myth, an object turns into a Tsukumogami when it turns 100 years old.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on October 31, 2016, 06:33:59 am
That wasn't the question, though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on October 31, 2016, 10:49:07 am
It's probably more a matter of power than time. The Tsukumo sisters and Raiko aren't any older as tsukumogami than Reimu's gohei, iirc. I would imagine the same applies to animal youkai: eventually they develop enough magical power to physically transform, but it's something they have to consciously do and varies from individual to individual. It's essentially a spell they can learn to cast on themselves, not a automatic function of being a youkai of a certain age.

I would also imagine that most of them can choose to be in whichever form they feel more comfortable in: it's mention in SoPM that Shou is a special case who has forgotten her own animal form. We only ever really see Orin actively transform, but I'd imagine it's common among both youjuu and tsukumogami. In other words, I don't think the human form is especially "natural" or "inevitable". It's just a form they can choose to take.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Camilo113 on November 02, 2016, 02:15:22 am
Celestial aren't supposed to be true immortals, they just manage to defeat the kishin that comes to collect their soul on a routine basis, continually extending their lifespan. Now, Celestials reside in Heaven, a Pure Land, which do not possess any kind of impurities, how does this works? If Celestials bear the concept of life and death within them then they are tainted beings. How is then Heaven a kegare-free land?

I tought maybe Kaguya's quote "even the citizens of the lunar capital bear just the faintest trace of impurity" in CiLR about how Lunar citizens can die could be the answer but it's not the same, after all Celestials die because their life ended its cycle, while Lunarians die because of accidents and such. Am I missing something or it's a misconception on my part?

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on November 02, 2016, 02:34:46 am
Well, first of all it's not clear that Celestials fight kishin. In fact, I would say they don't. Originally it was said that they fight shinigami, but then Komachi later says that shinigami never collect souls at all: death happens on its own, and if the Ministry of Right and Wrong really wants someone dead they send a kishin. While you could take that to mean that they actually send kishin to collect Celestials, frankly the way I read it (based partly on the way Tenshi reacts while talking to Komachi), is that the Ministry simply doesn't try to kill Celestials, ever. It's just not on their list of things to do. Instead, they send shinigami just to "test" them or whatever, to see if they're still worthy of being ignored. The whole point of WaHH 10, or wherever that was, is that everyone misunderstands what the job of a shinigami is, and I don't see why Celestials would be exempt from that. That being the case, I would assume Celestials are naturally kegare-free.

That said, I think you're also misunderstanding the point about the citizens of the Lunar Capital bearing a trace of impurity. It's not that they can die, it's that they will die, eventually. To paraphrase Lovecraft, "given strange aeons, even the deathless may die." It certainly would have been a scandal if any of them had ever died from an accident or anything. The Lunarian strategy is essentially to be entirely outside the cycle of life and death, and therefore be no more mortal than an inanimate object. That's what it means to have no kegare: to be neither alive nor dead. This is why Clownpiece was such a threat to them in LoLK, bringing life energy to the moon also brings the possibility of death to it. But it's clear that they're already considered the teensiest bit alive anyway, just from their own history. It's also worth noting that they're all Shinto gods though. It's not like death to them would mean the same thing it does to a human in the first place.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Camilo113 on November 02, 2016, 03:06:20 am
I also found odd that a kishin was the one sent to fight the Celestials, after all Celestial's bodies are toxic to youkai which would mean they had an enormous disadvantage.

 That said, from what I understood Celestials are no diferent from Lunarians in terms of purity, and this happens because the Ministry doesn't care about Celestials anymore; then it means being ignored by the Ministry leaves you out of the life-death cycle, becoming an amortal? I guess it kinda make sense.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 02, 2016, 03:55:29 am
Celestial's bodies are toxic to youkai which would mean they had an enormous disadvantage
Toxic in terms of eating.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on November 02, 2016, 06:24:12 am
Food poisoning.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Camilo113 on November 02, 2016, 06:21:33 pm
Toxic in terms of eating.
Food poisoning.
Ah so that what it was. Thanks for clarifying.

It's not that they can die, it's that they will die, eventually.

Really? I always understood Toyohime's phrase: "月の民も月の兎も不老不死ではない為、事故や戦いによって死ぬ事はあるだろう。" as she was trying to make a distinction between a Lunar inhabitant, a pure being who is absent of death, and a Person of Hourai who are not capable of dying in any kind of circumstance. She just theorized that if a kegare-free being can indeed be killed then it means it's not that pure to begin with.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on November 02, 2016, 07:13:33 pm
That's Toyohime's perspective, she could easily be subject to bias.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 03, 2016, 01:22:46 am
Well, she doesn't mention Hourai immortals, and really there's no reason for her to mention them. It's pretty face-value; the Lunarians carry minute traces of kegare, and so they don't actually have infinite lifespans, just incredibly long ones, to the point where it's unknown whether any Lunarian has ever died naturally.

Death itself isn't something Lunarians are particularly concerned with avoiding. It isn't as though they aim to eliminate kegare in order to not die; they aim to avoid death to eliminate kegare.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on November 03, 2016, 01:55:40 am
So what was the whole big deal about the Hourai Elixir, then? If the Lunarian's goal is just to eliminate Kegare for the sake of eliminating it, wouldn't it be beneficial for them ALL to take the Hourai Elixir and remove whatever small amount of impurity they have?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Camilo113 on November 03, 2016, 02:06:33 am
By taking the Hourai Elixir, you add the concept of death to your being when you become deathless, and by consequence you become tainted with kegare.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 03, 2016, 04:04:25 am
Again, this is kind of the issue with people conflating kegare with death. The presence of kegare is what influences "change" (in the abstract) and therefore deterioration, sickness, death, etc, and being "around" that kegare spreads it to you. But it doesn't follow that removing life and death from yourself should make you free of kegare, that's backwards. I also don't think "adding the concept of death" quite gets the point across, even if it's kind of accurate? It feels to me more like they're thinking of some TYPE-MOON-like thing where now the thing is related to death in some abstract capacity.

It's mused upon that kegare spread throughout the Earth by valuing life over all, and killing others in order to survive. Things on the Earth treasure life over all, and by doing so taint themselves with the idea of death; if living is the best, death is the worst. If you need to kill to survive, you spread the death of others by valuing your own life, spreading that taint throughout the world. But it's suggested that if only life wasn't treasured as such, the taint of deterioration and death would not have taken hold, and lifespans could be however long.

This leads into both of the concepts behind the Hourai Elixir and the Lunarians. The Lunarians figured that kegare, this taint, was what influenced the deterioration and death of the world. So just as beings from the ocean came up to the kegare-free land, the Lunarians moved to the kegare-free Moon. The difference is that they stopped valuing life itself and killing others to maintain it, so the taint of kegare doesn't spread. Meanwhile, taking the Hourai Elixir is giving into the temptation of eternal life, valuing life above all and rejecting death, which gives you that very same taint. This is partly why the Lunarians have been said to test humans with the Elixir, to see if they value life itself over living. (EDIT: Following was just a side comment, see Clarste's argument) Eirin says that a human taking the Elixir invites an eternity of suffering, where you are not even allowed to die, unable to live with humans as a human. It's seen as an awful existence in general, which I suppose is why Eirin feels so ashamed about Kaguya's fate.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on November 03, 2016, 12:38:06 pm
Eirin took the elixir herself too though. And she herself killed Lunarian emissaries to help Kaguya escape. I don't think she personally has any ideological beliefs whatsoever. She's more like a mad scientist who does things simply to prove that she can. Tsukuyomi wanted to live in a world free of kegare, so she helped him get the moon. Kaguya wanted to see an elixir of immortality, so she made one for her. Kaguya wants to live on Earth, a world full of kegare, and Eirin makes that happen.

I mean, she clearly feels guilt towards Kaguya or she never would have done any of this in the first place, but you have to remember that Eirin is a fugitive from the moon, and for good reason. You can't really use her as an example of how the standard Lunarian thinks. Heck, even just based on your own arugment just now, Eirin's the one who wanted to kill Urashima Taro to protect the secrecy of the moon (ie: kill to live; the Watatsukis wanted to send him back alive). Eirin's kind of... a sociopath.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 03, 2016, 01:54:43 pm
Good enough for me. I really only mentioned Eirin because that last bit was in the same passage as her hypothesis about Lunarians drinking the Elixir, so I wasn't thinking too hard about it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on November 04, 2016, 03:06:58 am
Eirin took the elixir herself too though.

I recall this being a contentious thing. Was it established recently?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on November 04, 2016, 03:35:47 am
I recall this being a contentious thing. Was it established recently?

Apparently there was a key line that was mistranslated, and it was never uncertain in Japanese. This was resolved years ago though, so I don't recall the details.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 04, 2016, 05:22:17 am
It's in IN's Netherworld team ending, which was really badly translated in general. A lot of the endings of IN read like gibberish.

「まだ、死にたくは無いわ。それに私は、姫の能力で作られた薬を服用している。残念だけど、冥界のお世話にはなれないのよ。」
"Well, I don't want to die just yet. Besides, I've taken the medicine made with the Princess' power. Sorry to say, but I really can't become the Netherworld's caregiver."
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on November 04, 2016, 07:24:16 am
Well don't that beat all? Thanks, gang!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: KR on November 05, 2016, 11:43:52 pm
I don't know if anyone realized that before, but I post anyways.
¿Could Kikuri, that rare bronced boss of TH1, be maybe that (gold?) medal of the PCB' third stage beginning? The two hold a strage orb in the hands, are a medal and have relatively close appaerance. It could be also a simple traditional portrait of Alice. ¿What do you think?

Comparative:

(http://puu.sh/s7OJK/85ef2b39cd.jpg) (http://puu.sh/s7OJh/cca28b3f43.png)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on November 06, 2016, 04:42:32 am
It's in IN's Netherworld team ending, which was really badly translated in general. A lot of the endings of IN read like gibberish.

「まだ、死にたくは無いわ。それに私は、姫の能力で作られた薬を服用している。残念だけど、冥界のお世話にはなれないのよ。」
"Well, I don't want to die just yet. Besides, I've taken the medicine made with the Princess' power. Sorry to say, but I really can't become the Netherworld's caregiver."

OMG, thank you so fucking much Drake, you are the Real MVP! I was getting so fucking sick of that stupid "Eirin didn't drink the Elixir" myth, and now we can start putting it to rest.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on November 06, 2016, 05:47:36 am
Speaking of IN and the Netherworld team, is it ever explained amywhere how they managed to freeze the night in IN? The other teams have somewhat obvious explanations, but...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on November 06, 2016, 06:55:11 am
Maybe Yuyuko asked Yukari to do it?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on November 06, 2016, 03:29:30 pm
I don't think it's ever made explicit what they did.

Maybe Yuyuko used her powers to kill the sunrise.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tiamat on November 07, 2016, 12:18:07 am
OMG, thank you so fucking much Drake, you are the Real MVP! I was getting so fucking sick of that stupid "Eirin didn't drink the Elixir" myth, and now we can start putting it to rest.

Actually, thanks to several translators, maybe one of which was Drake (I forget. It was so long ago...), I've updated the wiki several years ago to start putting that to rest (I thought those exact words myself back then, too)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phasm on November 08, 2016, 12:46:54 am
I read somewhere that Youmu and Yuyuko conducted a ritual in order to freeze the night.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 08, 2016, 09:09:45 am
That probably isn't the case. For that matter, the usual answer for Scarlet team is that Sakuya would have frozen the night, but we're aware by now that it's impossible for Sakuya to do that.

Even the "historical" take as written in BAiJR and PMiSS suggests that multiple parties were involved, as has become a running theme in all later works. Sakuya was stealing items for Remilia that night, who wanted to go to the moon before dawn, and Marisa was following Sakuya, who had stolen her mini-Hakkero. That being said, it doesn't disqualify either from being involved in the incident, and Sakuya even claims in her interview that she stopped the incident, but couldn't have stopped the night with her abilities (which is consistent with modern Sakuya). Aya later notes in the article that there were rumors that various humans and youkai, including Reimu and Sakuya, were involved in its resolution. She also muses in the article for the incident that the power to stop the night is quite a serious power and isn't sure who would have that kind of power. PMiSS also implies Reimu was a culprit/resolver of the incident, as she's the one Akyuu says won't give you a straight answer about that night. I'm not sure if there are any other places where ambiguous notes about the incident are made, but I wouldn't be surprised.

The whole concept of IN as a game in the first place is just that ZUN wanted the game with all these playable characters. It isn't particularly strange to suggest that he didn't really have any good justification for saying each team stopped the night besides that the night had to be stopped somehow. Judging by the self-imposed mysteries behind what actually happened, I'm banking on the guess that ZUN has no actual answers here.

I think that if it were absolutely necessary to spell out a concrete answer (and it really isn't), my answer would be that Yukari herself stopped the night, regardless of how many parties were involved in the actual incident resolution, and that's that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on November 08, 2016, 02:33:40 pm
Wasn't there something about Marisa and Alice using a "forbidden spell" to stop the night?

The Remilia/Sakuya team fights Reimu, and the Youmu/Yuyuko team fights Marisa. This can be taken as evidence that Remilia's route is in continuity with Marisa's, and Youmu's route in continuity with Reimu's. Which would in turn mean it's possible that Patchouli stopped the night in Sakuya's route.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on November 17, 2016, 12:07:53 am
I wonder if it's possible for hourai immortal to "register" an "update" to "restore point" for when they "reset"-ing

like, what happens if hourai immortal get pregnant and then they dies. or pregnancy incapabilities comes with hourai immortality.


btw, it's not like i'm having thought about something kinky, i swear.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phasm on November 17, 2016, 12:40:25 am
To be honest the hipothetical baby might be able to inherit the " Hourai Gene " however in the case it does not, i think that a healthy pregnancy could happen, however should something happen to the Mother's body let's say... Mokou because she's the best person for this example.
As you all know whenever Mokou attacks she specializes in Fire Magic, in fact she likes it so much that she often burns her own body in her attacks. < This can lead to the destruction of the body as we saw in IN and ULIL specially in ULIL since she burns helfself to ash in order to recover health for her attacks.
The baby would not survive unless it had the " Hourai Gene ".

Provived that People who drank the Elixer can even BECOME pregnant, since:

The first taste: One becomes incapable of growing up and ageing
The second taste: One is incapable of getting sick
The third taste: One becomes immortal


As soon as you taste the Elixer your body cannot grow and age which might mean that an Embryo can simply not be produced by the person who drank the elixer. And in the case that she can still become pregnant, now give her another taste and she now has total invulnerability to alterations in the body such as desiese, i don't know if this also encompasses pregnancy.

But then again this is just conjecture ( scribbles some pappers )
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: legwan-w-spioszkach on November 27, 2016, 05:03:03 pm
Currently the english Touhou Wiki has Rumia's theme being translated literary as "Apparition Stalk the Night". This bugged me the day i decided to retranslate music themes' names, when i ended up with the more probable translation of "Voyage of the Night Demon".
Given the fandom has recently been phasing out the woolseyism and other literary tranlsations for the sake of translations as exact as possible (as possible as to still sound like real speech), I've became curious. The page for the EoSD's music on the aforementioned wiki does not provide explanation as to whether or not it is a reference to some popculture or other stuff.

Can someone enlightment me :V ?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on November 27, 2016, 10:59:41 pm
It isn't really "night demon" as it's 夜行, not something like 夜妖魔. 夜行 is really just traveling at night, so the song is referring to either Rumia walking around, or somebody else walking around and Rumia being there. Either way conveying this as "stalks the night" isn't that bad.
妖魔 itself being "apparition" was probably just a whatever-translation (plus it's just "youma" in the comments), but it isn't like that's a term that's really used in Touhou anyways so it isn't a big deal.

I did go ahead and clean up some of the music comments though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on November 28, 2016, 03:45:06 am
I never really saw the problem with "youma" being translated as "apparition" (as opposed to "kobito" as "inchling") and "stalks the night" doesn't really strike me as a huge departure from the original either.

To be honest, I think some of the translations could use a little more "Woolsey" (although things like the prevalent Imperishable Night English patch goes way too far) but it's a tricky issue.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on November 29, 2016, 11:00:29 am
Well, we also have 妖魔本 translated as "demon book", and in FS 39 there was this thing called simply "youma" that i don't know how was originally written (was it "妖魔"?).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: legwan-w-spioszkach on November 29, 2016, 08:39:13 pm
I'll have another question, this time about Flandre.
Is here any deeply psychological fanwork centred around Flandre? I do not mean works where she is just presented as crazy, I want works that are more creative about it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on December 03, 2016, 01:50:05 am
Well, we also have 妖魔本 translated as "demon book", and in FS 39 there was this thing called simply "youma" that i don't know how was originally written (was it "妖魔"?).

Yes, that was 妖魔. I don't know if youma is a technical term in Touhou or not, but I've been leaving it as is in my translations, just in case. IE: I call them youma books, not demon books.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Red770 on December 19, 2016, 05:16:12 pm
I have a burning question that's been bugging me. Before I forget, here is the question:

In the land of illusions is death an ending? Or is it a means for a new beginning? If that's not an illusion what is?

Also if your emotions die out and is replaced with apathy what happens? (hint: you get a raymoo  :V)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on December 19, 2016, 05:56:39 pm
Well, not only do we have various flavors of immortals, we've also got fairies, ghosts, and celestials who can continue on after dying like nothing happened.  At the same time, the afterlife is a concrete thing, and there have been humans and youkai that had a very real death in the print works.  I wouldn't say death in Touhou is a new beginning, as much as it is a continuation of the cycle of life.  Remember, there is Buddhist style of reincarnation and judgment, and the Child of Miare uses that to continue his or her work on the Gensokyo Chronicle.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on December 19, 2016, 06:36:56 pm
In the land of illusions is death an ending? Or is it a means for a new beginning? If that's not an illusion what is?
Depends on what you mean with "ending" and "beginning".
For the regular humans, and by that I mean the not-Akyuu ones, there are various things that should be held in consideration : if a human dies while bearing some super strong feelings of attachment or regret to the world, he'll become a ghost ; and if he was consumed by grudge, like jealousy or something that goes along these lines, chances are that he becomes a vengeful spirit or a youkai. In these two cases, you can say that the former human still keeps some traits of his individuality back when he was still a human : In these two cases, you can say he still continues on, even after death, so I'm am not sure if you could consider this as a new beginning.

When a more regular human dies a completely regular death, with no problems, no regrets, nothing whatsoever, his soul eventually crosses the Sanzu river, gets to Higan and get judged and, somewhere down the line, eventually reincarnates. Now then, here's the thing about the not-Akyuu reincarnated souls : they don't carry any memory whatsoever of who they were in their previous life. Even the vengeful spirits in imprisoned underground, who are supposed to stay there until they have repented on their past sins, have no memory whatsoever of the sins they are supposed to repent for (a certain character said that, but I don't quite remember). In this case, it's a complete new beginning for the reincarnated not-Akyuu soul : no trace whatsoever of who it was in the past. I guess this might fit what you mean by "new beginning".

In the case of non humans (ie : beasts,...) , supernatural beings and "special cases",  I won't delve into the specifics, but basically what should be considered is whether they can die or not and if they do, what happens next : do they stay dead or not ? No seriously, you can stretch this topic far and wide, especially if you take each and every race and peculiar characters into consideration.

All in all, for the humans, it's mainly about their soul : it simply follow the cycle of reincarnation. In other word, it's getting recycled. I am not sure if recycled material can be considered as "continuation" of what they were before, though.

Also if your emotions die out and is replaced with apathy what happens?
You become apathethic. Duh  :V
Or you become a background character for some fighting game stage
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on January 13, 2017, 07:48:39 pm
Did the hungry Yuyuko fanon meme start before or after IN (the game where she talks about eating Mystia and stuff)?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on January 13, 2017, 09:18:28 pm
After, theres nothing about Yuyuko's hunger in PCB.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on January 14, 2017, 12:20:51 am
So I've noticed that Full Moon Duel in Koumajou Densetsu Scarlet Symphony is an homage to, if not an outright arrangement of Akumajo Dracula X68000/Castlevania Chronicles' Moon Fight (link for comparison (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raf4ngDJxbI)), isn't this something worth mentioning in the soundtrack's wiki page?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on January 14, 2017, 04:26:45 am
I'm pretty sure a ton of songs across the two games are homages, so that isn't anything particularly special. But I'm not a die-hard fan of Castlevania so I couldn't really tell you which songs or to what extent. Scarlet Tears is obviously Bloody Tears. Divine Bloodlines is also obviously in Divine Shrine Maiden.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on January 14, 2017, 08:32:04 am
Yes, however while those two are homages in that they're similar in structure, Full Moon Duel pretty much has note-for-note similarities with Moon Fight that I think it may count as an arrangement of it. Heck, even the name itself is almost an outright synonym to Moon Fight compared to the other two which are, again, just homages.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on January 14, 2017, 09:55:36 am
...And the ones I mention don't? There are a ton of exact note similarities, never mind the chord progressions. Even versions of the tracks themselves aren't necessarily going to be the same across different games, nor should you really need a certain amount of notes being the same to be "counted" as an arrangement. By that measure, are a huge proportion of Touhou arranges not actually arranges? For that matter, I don't get why going that step to label it an "arrangement" overtop of a "homage" is even relevant in the first place. Regardless of similarity the intention of the artist is just "I'm modeling this song after X". The track names are basically the same too, it was obviously just easier to make some titles more similar than others while keeping them relevant to Touhou.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on January 14, 2017, 03:30:49 pm
After, theres nothing about Yuyuko's hunger in PCB.
Does that mean I can call out people who think it's an arbitrary fandom thing like masochist Tenshi (which actually is arbitrary, since there are no hints of her being masochistic in canon)? Did her hunger in IN come from the fandom, or vice versa?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Camilo113 on January 14, 2017, 07:53:09 pm
Does that mean I can call out people who think it's an arbitrary fandom thing like masochist Tenshi (which actually is arbitrary, since there are no hints of her being masochistic in canon)? Did her hunger in IN come from the fandom, or vice versa?

Masochist Tenshi comes from her SWR Story Mode where everyone gathers in Heaven to "punish" her during the  Celestial Torture-fest The Groundbreaking Ceremony; and I'm pretty sure the whole "hungry Yuyuko" derivates from her IN behavior during the story.

By the way, you could've looked all this in the Touhou Wiki, it's not like those fandom stuff are unfamiliar or hard to find.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on January 14, 2017, 10:02:10 pm
Does that mean I can call out people who think it's an arbitrary fandom thing like masochist Tenshi (which actually is arbitrary, since there are no hints of her being masochistic in canon)? Did her hunger in IN come from the fandom, or vice versa?
It came from IN, but her gluttoness is mentioned a couple of other times in canon, like her fight with Iku in SWR, where she expresses desire to eat Oarfish. Or HM where she is endlessly fed riceballs by Poor Youmu.

Fandom turns this up to 11 and makes her into fucking Kirby, when as far as I can tell, half of her gluttoness may just be her teasing people (like Youmu). I don't think she actually ate Mystria.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on January 15, 2017, 01:31:04 am
Masochist Tenshi comes from her SWR Story Mode where everyone gathers in Heaven to "punish" her during the  Celestial Torture-fest The Groundbreaking Ceremony; and I'm pretty sure the whole "hungry Yuyuko" derivates from her IN behavior during the story.

By the way, you could've looked all this in the Touhou Wiki, it's not like those fandom stuff are unfamiliar or hard to find.
It's not like Tenshi WANTED to be punished though, right?
And I'm somewhat afraid of the Touhou Wiki not having the info I want.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on January 15, 2017, 06:55:50 am
Quote
Yes, get angry!
Because if you don't punish me, Gensokyo shall be no more!
(from Youmu's SWR story)

Quote
Well you know, I was told by Suika that the gathering "was called 'The Groundbreaking Ceremony' but was actually 'Celestial Torture-fest'".
(from Tenshi's SWR story)

The whole plot of SWR is: Tenshi's bored, so she causes an incident to get people to come beat her up.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on January 15, 2017, 03:45:10 pm
That's because she wanted excitement, not pain, right?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on January 15, 2017, 04:48:15 pm
That's because she wanted excitement, not pain, right?
Yes. Fandom likes to do silly things though, so people used some of her more unfortunate phrasing ("Yes, get angry! Because if you don't punish me, Gensokyo shall be no more!") to create the whole masochist thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on January 15, 2017, 05:45:00 pm
She wanted to be the final boss though, so she was going into the whole thing aware that she'd get beat up. I don't like the "masochist" interpretation all that much, but it does make some sense.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on January 15, 2017, 10:53:43 pm
She's not *actually* a masochist, but the fandom takes thinns and exaggerates them. Like with Sakuya being flat in PCB but suddenly having breasts in IaMP (I think it was IaMP). Obviously it's cause different artists do different things, but it turned into a meme. Or Reimu being dirt poor- yeah in canon she's sometines greedy and sometimes wanting for money, but the fandom took it to the extreme to make her so poor she eats dirt.

Tenshi wanting to get beat up is canon, so the fandom took it to the extreme and it turned into a joke.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tiamat on January 19, 2017, 09:40:43 am
IIRC, from what Tenshi says in her own storyline, i's notable that until Tenshi's storyline, Tenshi was losing her fights on purpose too (at least according to Tenshi, when she's explaining why everyone beat her before but suddenly she's now able to beat everyone else all in a row).  This was in part due to her not being allowed to do TOO much damage or else she'd be breaking heaven's laws.

(though I think the aftermath of her fight with Yukari as shown by Reisen's storyline, the one time she probably did genuinely lose and actually is shown to be in pain, she doesn't seem very happy about it)

A lot of the fandom really does have some roots in canon, which is where they got it in the first place. It just tends to overexaggerate things.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on January 20, 2017, 02:26:01 am
ZUN has an interesting desire to write fighting game stories where it makes sense that the final boss loses to like a dozen different people in a row. He does the same thing with both Kokoro and Sumireko, where it's canon that they lose every single fight until their own route. Although in their cases the rather simple explanation is just that they're weak at that point in the story.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tiamat on January 20, 2017, 03:25:57 am
Yea, by the time of Kokoro's storyline, she's "complete" (too complete, even), and for Sumireko, she's.... er... I forget.  Fully materialized in Gensokyo?

(in Suika Ibuki's case, everyones' storyline is a separate alternate universe from the others so canon-wise she wasn't a punching bag to everyone in a row.  Just Reimu.)

I did think it a nice touch that ZUN actually takes into account a being's power in his stories, and even the games considering his reasoning why the Watatsuki sisters aren't in them (...power comparisons which ironically we're not allowed to discuss specifics in detail on the forum because apparently people can't be trusted to debate factually, intellectually, and responsibly on such matters *eyeroll*)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on February 05, 2017, 02:02:36 am
If the Lunarians are the heavenly gods of Shinto (Which they are), does that mean they need faith like any other deity? Or are they just a special case?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 05, 2017, 02:33:51 am
I think they get a free pass by being fundamentally cemented in Shinto.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on February 06, 2017, 07:37:32 am
I think they get a free pass by being fundamentally cemented in Shinto.
That's what I thought, thanks!

I guess the major deities of other pantheons are still out there somewhere. Probably pretty different from how they originally were, considering the current state of gensokyo's deities, like Kanako being a former war goddess turned goddess of progress. For all we know Anubis could now be the god of furries.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 06, 2017, 11:33:44 am
I always thought the big gods out there could make it with no need of faith, not because they are generally known, but because a good number of mythologies have the gods creating humans and the Earth, or at least being older than humanity as a whole.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on February 08, 2017, 10:47:20 am
Was reading Yuyuko's profile from PCB and had some doubts in this paragraph.

The reason Yuyuko can neither reincarnate nor vanish is because of the seal on the Saigyou Ayakashi. Once the boundary is breached, the time that was frozen will continue to flow, resulting in her death again. Reviving the corpse will destroy Yuyuko's ghost, so it's no wonder that the near-success of the revival ended in inevitable failure.

If the youkai tree is unsealed, time will continue flowing and Yuyuko will die again? But isn't Yuyuko a ghost? How can she die again?

And reviving the corpse will destroy Yuyuko's ghost. Does that mean that she will get revived and exist as human Yuyuko or will her ghost just get destroyed and she is gone for good?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 08, 2017, 12:07:37 pm
It's a kind of old translation. I'll get to it in the morning or something.

Basically the gist is that it's impossible for Yuyuko to break the seal on the Saigyou Ayakashi due to it being sealed partially with her corpse. If she was revived by breaking the seal, her existence as a ghost would disappear, which is why she was unable to complete it herself. She can't pass on to reincarnate (e.g. through a burial ceremony) because her body is in the seal, and you can't break the seal to get her body... without reviving her.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: ExPorygon on February 22, 2017, 05:29:03 pm
Hi, sorry if this has been asked before. I read somewhere that the spell card rules were established just before EoSD and that the Scarlet Mist Incident was in fact the first time that they were used.

Is this statement supported by canon sources? Is there any canon information regarding the approximate time the spell card rules were established?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 22, 2017, 05:59:28 pm
It's said in Reimu's PMiSS article, under the "Vampire Incident" section.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: ExPorygon on February 22, 2017, 06:12:06 pm
It's said in Reimu's PMiSS article, under the "Vampire Incident" section.
Ah thanks, that clears it up.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CrystalCreation on February 22, 2017, 08:41:33 pm
Not necessarily a Touhou question but why are mangas always drawn in this cheap looking black and white artstyle.  Are the production costs for colored mangas too high? But even mangas you’d expect to have a high budget don’t have color. Or is it a matter of printing cost? But then why don’t they just focus on publishing digitally?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 23, 2017, 03:34:04 am
Uhhhhhh...? I'm not sure how to answer this. Are these the first manga you've read? Like uh, yes. Printing color is expensive, printing on paper that allows color to be printed is expensive, and this isn't really a problem. If they were more expensive to make then obviously they'd be sold at a higher price as well. I'm definitely not sure how you get "cheap-looking" out of black-and-white halftone.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on February 23, 2017, 04:43:16 am
I remember when i was a kid, there was a Digimon Adventures manga, full color
but actually it's a screenshots of the animes printed on paper, not typical hand drawn. If i already know swearing at the time, i would probably have gone "what the shit!?"
I was pure & cute at the time (feel free to puke)
the paper used are.........seems to be photo paper
seems like the manga would be rather durable under extreme condition compared to the rest of it's brethern, what i mean by that is using the book primarily as a utility to hit someone physically. in the head would be a blast

edit : really quick search on google just now, i can't seem to find anything as proof to it's existence. Now i'm convinced that's was an illegal local product, some form of piracy. You probably can't even call that a manga.

by the way, it seems you can discuss this in the cafe section. i'm a bit "curious" myself

n.b. you can't actully order drinks in there tho
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on February 23, 2017, 10:49:49 am
I want a confirmation about Reimu's Fantasy Nature.

Thai wiki basically says that this spell works like this: Reimu does not float away from reality to avoid enemy attacks nor she becomes invincible. She simply flys up in the air so high that opponent's attacks can't reach her.

While 無敵 literally means invincible and it is used in shooting games to describe a brief invinciblity state of a character after having been hit, it does not mean like that in this context. It simply means as above.

If Reimu is invincible why would she have to float upwards?

...That's the gist of it.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night/Spell_Cards/Last_Word

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Reimu_Hakurei%27s_Spell_Cards

Can anyone confirm this? By the way, don't look at English script for references cuz I have edited them a year ago. My mistake.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 23, 2017, 01:47:20 pm
Dunno, by english translation GoM seems pretty explicit in saying how it works: she closes her eyes, then goes into an "opaque invisible" state and becomes impossible to hit while also shooting automatically. Nothing 'bout flying away out of reach.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 24, 2017, 01:00:28 am
Hey this was an example I was supposed to fix but never got around to.

As you've already guessed, it makes no sense for Reimu to uh fly really high. It doesn't reflect anything about the actual in-game attack at all, nor does it match with GoM. To begin with, why would Reimu become any harder to hit by flying up anyways? Everyone can fly. The term 無敵 wouldn't even be used in such a context; you'd probably say something else.

Claiming that she only flies up really high, from what I can guess, is mostly an attempt to detract powerlevel arguments and craft up a scenario in which the translation doesn't actually mean they're that broken. I can in some ways appreciate the sentiment by whoever was thinking that way, but they let that mentality color how they read the text to the point where they basically just translated poorly. I can't condone that.

For comparison, there's the now-infamous passage in SDV due to which people conclude that Eiki has super powerlevels. This is only supported by a very literal translation that doesn't take into account any context or the characters involved. I try to take care to kill this belief that Eiki is ""stronger"" than other very powerful characters because that isn't what's supported by the text. However, something like the LoLK interview where ZUN states that Hecatia is beyond what we've seen in the series already: that's totally okay. She just is. Instead of trying to manipulate translations to change this powerlevels narrative, people should instead just discourage the discussion altogether because it's stupid and pointless and fundamentally undermines core elements of the series.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on February 24, 2017, 09:47:31 am
Ah, I see. Thanks.

...And three years ago and still now, they accused us of misinterpretation and spreading false information when they are the ones, Oh the irony and hypocrisy!


However, at least Thai wiki is right about "Eiki is stronger" thing, they translate that as "cannot oppose/defy" as in cannot win in an argument. And they also agree that Hecatia is the strongest in Touhou universe, for now.


I have three last comments I want to share/confirm. It was posted a month ago on their Facebook group:


1. It's not sure whether Remilia really flies around the Moon in SSiB manga because she was bragging at that time so "Remilia can fly around the Moon in a short time" shouldn't be used as a reference in her profile in our wiki.


2. "Remilia's ability is not what she can control with conscious volition. To simply explain, Remilia is like "the thing beyond fate" so meeting her may result in an alteration of your original fate such as; Remilia talks with you, as a result, you go to work late. Remilia cannot control people's life or death as she wish."

For reference, this is an excerpt from PMISS Remilia's profile Thai translated.

"The ability to manipulate fate can lead to an alteration of the fate of those near her, whether she realizes it or not. It is said that if she greets you (with voice), your way of life can be changed greatly. it seems that at first she may be more likely to find rare things."

and this is ours, by the way, I didn't do any editing.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Remilia_Scarlet


3. I may have said this a year ago, with almost the exact same day but I figured that the example I gave that time was not good so I came up with better ones.

Thai admin said that adding ! when there isn't one completely changes character's tone. For instance;

Marisa said some ridiculous thing like Reimu should give up her works and sell her shrine, Reimu responding "Are you crazy?" and "Are you crazy!?" are two different things; The former is just Reimu feeling incredulous and disheartened, sighing but the latter is an angry shout.


Does any of that make sense? Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 24, 2017, 12:15:10 pm
1. Absolutely. Remilia is completely the type of person to say "I just flew around the moon, but I did it so fast you probably couldn't see me", while not actually moving at all.

2. Assuming that her ability exists, it would still be too much to say that she can't control it, but rather it's unknown whether she can or not. 「本人は意識してかしないでか、」 is pretty clear on "whether she's doing it consciously or not", not "she doesn't do it consciously".

That being said, personally I'm not even convinced Remilia's ability is real, for reasons the same as the above. Especially if you read her PMiSS article, it's very specific on using language that is purposefully vague and non-committal. Whether she does it on purpose, to what extent it may or may not affect you, being more "likely" for "something" to happen, that there's no way of knowing whether it occurs or not, etc. It's the pinnacle of being able to claim you have an amazing power while also having it be impossible to disprove since you can claim anything was twisting fate after-the-fact. The specific example you gave of "Remilia talks with you, as a result, you go to work late" is especially funny to me because it's exactly an example where it's vapidly true: she talks with you and distracts you long enough that you're late. Anyone can do it, but she can say she manipulated your fate. Like duh.

3. It depends on a few things, but I'd agree that ?! instead of ? can suggest a different tone. In manga, character expression, fonts, dialogue box shapes, etc are also important cues, beyond the literal vocabulary and wording used. ZUN is pretty good at explicitly adding exclamation marks in dialogue and otherwise establishing the mood through dialogue boxes and font choices (assuming those are his decision, which is likely), so I don't really think this would be a problem besides some edge cases.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on February 24, 2017, 01:08:28 pm
Thanks for the answers! For the second one, I thought as much that the example they give was hilariously obvious.

Wow,...that means Thai folks soil our community and wiki's reputation for almost absolutely nothing! 90% of the insults (some were legitimate criticisms) are now attributed to their own false interpretations, language elitism and blaming us for it! That's how Thai community rolls, people.

Anyways, thanks for clarifications as always!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on February 25, 2017, 06:19:29 pm
It's a kind of old translation. I'll get to it in the morning or something.

Basically the gist is that it's impossible for Yuyuko to break the seal on the Saigyou Ayakashi due to it being sealed partially with her corpse. If she was revived by breaking the seal, her existence as a ghost would disappear, which is why she was unable to complete it herself. She can't pass on to reincarnate (e.g. through a burial ceremony) because her body is in the seal, and you can't break the seal to get her body... without reviving her.
Let say, if someone like Yukari goes and unseal the barrier, will Yuyuko be revived as human form and the youkai tree being back? Or will Yuyuko's ghost just disappear and Yuyuko's corpse just lie there dead?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 26, 2017, 03:23:54 am
I don't think there's enough detail in the setting to say. Like a lot of things written in that era, there's only just enough explained to lay a foundation for the setting, but not really enough that you can start looking into it that deeply. If anything, the level of detail needed to answer that would have been put in the BAiJR~PMiSS era works, but I don't think we can glean enough to say much.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on February 26, 2017, 03:33:05 am
What's the relationship between youkai and human fear? Are they like gods, in that they need humans to constantly fear them in order to continue existing? Or do they just need fear to come into existence, then once they exist they can exist independently? Or am I off the mark altogether?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on February 26, 2017, 09:37:21 am
Hm, rather than me explaining it, read the latest chapter of Forbidden Scrollery that came out just two days ago and was translated just today? lol
http://bato.to/reader#467c942d4eca2a8a
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on February 26, 2017, 03:38:30 pm
Yukari personally going to meet Kosuzu...

Interesting...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on February 26, 2017, 04:19:23 pm
Hm, rather than me explaining it, read the latest chapter of Forbidden Scrollery that came out just two days ago and was translated just today? lol
http://bato.to/reader#467c942d4eca2a8a

How...... convenient lol. ZUN answered my question as soon as I asked it.

EDIT: Okay so... the way Marisa describes it, it makes youkai seem like a Umineko sort of thing. If we accept that youkai exist, then they exist, but if we say "it's just a bird" then it's just a bird. But youkai do exist in universe. We've seen tangible proof of their existence.

This question might not be answerable right now, but what would happen if say Mamizou showed off her tail in the outside world? Or Sumireko had a laser fight above a city with some youkai? Or Junko did terraforming on the moon? These things have clearly tangible effects? How can someone deny the existence of youkai when there's tangible proof of their existence?

Another way to put it is, Marisa said youkai could decimate the village if they wanted to. But how could they do that if they never existed in the first place, and were just a bird or a gust of wind all along?

It always could be a Umineko thing where all these incidents can be explained science, but that seems kind of silly for this universe. And like I said, I get this question might not be answerable by anyone except ZUN. But I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on February 27, 2017, 02:00:40 am
Sumireko did had a laser fight above a city with some supernatural capable. And since then things are how we see they are currently. She becames the lackey of some mountain hermit & sleeps more

I don't think Junko going to do those kind of thing in a too far high of a level if in the end it's far off of her pure purpose.

If it's limited to Mamizou flashing her tail to random high school boys, it will be some neat cosplay. She will gain "faith" & become idol.

If i were to joke around with Junko idea,
If Junko were to go and write things on the moon, say maybe "Chang'e! i'm gonna be on TV! hows that, b*tch!". Earthlings had no idea about Junko at all and be all like "dafuq NASA!?"
From here there's gonna be two possibilty until angry mother Junko actually show herself in TV station.
First, Junko had a catfight with Hecatia whose be like "How could you go on ahead without me!", them both cool off, reconcile, and forgetting about it. And things in Earth stay the way they are seeing how Lunarian are smart & pissed.
Second, it will be like Ouroborous thingy all over again. Modern Apparition golden age, brand new science, ignored, forgotten, Fancier Apparition Asylum the 2nd, again.
"T2H : Touhou Next Generations" or "The Call of Ct2lhu" sorry i can't help it.....i get enough joking now.

I have nothing against tengu, in fact i love them panty shots. But Tengu are one of the youkais capable of making a gust of wind running amok while making it looks like just the work of nature, those are just wind after all.
*both hands up* i'm not implying anything here, just givin an exemplī grātiā, spare me
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on February 27, 2017, 03:07:11 pm
Given Akyuu's words about infinite truths, there's also the chance that what Marisa said to Kosuzu isn't the actual truth but only what they are made to believe.
What if Yukari now tells Kosuzu that youkai don't really need fear to keep existing, and that it was just propaganda to make Gensokyo possible and keep it a liveable place?

Also, did ZUN say anything about the missed chapter of november?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on February 27, 2017, 11:58:31 pm
Given Akyuu's words about infinite truths, there's also the chance that what Marisa said to Kosuzu isn't the actual truth but only what they are made to believe.
There are few guesses and interpretation to reason with that.
But if what Marisa said are taken the wrong way (denying the existence of youkai), that would endanger the longevity of youkai and makes it no different from outside world. Them youkai wouldn't want that.
There's also matters whether it's even possible for Human Village to deny the youkai in Gensokyo like TresserT said. them gals are just nuts

What if Yukari now tells Kosuzu that youkai don't really need fear to keep existing, and that it was just propaganda to make Gensokyo possible and keep it a liveable place?
That will be a huge turning point, makes the only reason that keeps the youkai inside the Gensokyo are the barrier. Can also be said confinement instead of asylum (though that depends on the whackiness of the residents).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on February 28, 2017, 03:21:29 am
How...... convenient lol. ZUN answered my question as soon as I asked it.

EDIT: Okay so... the way Marisa describes it, it makes youkai seem like a Umineko sort of thing. If we accept that youkai exist, then they exist, but if we say "it's just a bird" then it's just a bird. But youkai do exist in universe. We've seen tangible proof of their existence.

This question might not be answerable right now, but what would happen if say Mamizou showed off her tail in the outside world? Or Sumireko had a laser fight above a city with some youkai? Or Junko did terraforming on the moon? These things have clearly tangible effects? How can someone deny the existence of youkai when there's tangible proof of their existence?

Another way to put it is, Marisa said youkai could decimate the village if they wanted to. But how could they do that if they never existed in the first place, and were just a bird or a gust of wind all along?

It always could be a Umineko thing where all these incidents can be explained science, but that seems kind of silly for this universe. And like I said, I get this question might not be answerable by anyone except ZUN. But I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

Well, the youkai are still being believed in, so of course they could destroy the village.  But what comes afterwards is the more critical part.  What kills youkai isn't just science or evidence.  It's a more popular explanation.  As long as you can explain what has happened, and most importantly get the people to believe it, whether it's scientific or not, without involving the youkai, that's the end of Gensokyo.  That's the main difference between Gensokyo's situation and Umineko's - it's Politics, not Logic.  And Yukari, Keine, and Reimu have that arena locked down tight. 

So in this circumstance, a village has become a crater.  Some people who come upon it might think a meteor hit.  Some might think a terrorist attacked.  Another group may think it's the wrath of an angry god.  And then there's the guy in the corner saying it was the Oni picking a fight with the Flower Youkai.  The whole rationale of Gensokyo is to keep option #4 viable to the people, so the youkai will survive.    The spellcard rules, the Hakurei Barrier, the village, Gensokyo Chronicle, even the youkai exterminators...all these things are directly in service to that simple meaning.

As to what Yukari is up to, I can only guess.  There might be belief shenanigans, though I'd think they'd go the opposite way than what PK suggests.  As FS keeps reminding us, Urban Legends are still A Thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on February 28, 2017, 05:59:06 am
I suppose what I'm asking is, how can youkai do anything if they're just an explanation for a phenomenon?
We've seen youkai wandering the village, we've seen girls flying, we've seen magical danmaku shows. How can you deny the existence of something that can walk up and punch you in the face?

To put it another way: if Kosuzu says "I deny that you're a youkai" and tries to punch Yukari in the face in the next chapter, what would happen? Could Yukari still gap her away?
Let's say the answer is yes. Doesn't that mean that youkai can affect the world whether you believe in them or not? And if something can affect the world, doesn't that mean it exists independently of belief? Why do youkai need to be shrouded in fear and mystery- just perform something that's impossible for humans and prove that you exist.

If Yukari is worried that outside world is believing in youkai less and less, then why not just do something that proves her existence? Wouldn't gapping a train into a city be enough to convince most people she exists? And if she can't just do that, why not? Why is she able to destroy the human village, but not gap a train into a city?

As for the meteor example, that's valid. A meteor destroys a village, people blame it on youkai, therefor youkai "exist". But if that's the case, doesn't that mean that everything we know about touhou, all the incidents, the magical danmaku battles, all the cute monster girls, wouldn't that mean they were all just lies in universe?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on February 28, 2017, 11:59:20 am


You can't deny what was harming you, but it's possible to be mistaken about what was harming you. For me, thats a more proper way to interpret what Marisa said.
I just think that "deny" thing are just not possible. Regardless of current belief of youkai in Gensokyo, what was already there are gonna be there, they just need maintenance and the lack of it doesn't necessarily erase them immediately.

Youkai can always proves their "might" to outside world. Theres example of youkai that had done so, the personal house loli Zashiki-warashi that migrate to outside world to "work" but eventually come back not too long after, & surprisingly adopting modern make-up.

That event demonstrate theres a "condition" with maintaining their "might" in outside world. Whether that "condition" are influenced by Yukari "things" or something else, i don't know. It can even be just a simple disinterest by the youkai side. But for Zashiki-warashi case, the "condition" are because the demand for them are deemed as not qualifying (i think they are saying "not the real thing").

Naturally, if something can't be maintained, they will eventually erode. So, persistently demonstrating their "might" can be not the best tactical action for them who only have a little world for "supplies", if in the end the "might" that they persistently demonstrate would eventually end up help their enemy developed immunity.
What appears to me is that the youkai are "surviving" meanwhile outside world are "progressing".

This is the most safe answer i could give without violating the thread conditions too much, i aware it might not be satisfying. To be honest im just trying only because i felt guilty from my previous post (where i kind of lose control lol).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on February 28, 2017, 10:31:18 pm
In Gensokyo's case specifically, I think it's rather relevant to remember the conversation that occurs in Part 3 (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_3) of SoPM, in which Byakuren argues that the youkai of Gensokyo were liberated from human imagination and started to develop their own characteristics (though Miko argues that this isn't 100% true in that same conversation). With this in mind, it could be said that Gensokyo is an attempt by the youkai to actually progress themselves, instead of just surviving.

I wonder if the youkai in Gensokyo still really do need humans to survive, or if they just believe that they do (since that's how it always was for them).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on February 28, 2017, 11:14:15 pm
I suppose what I'm asking is, how can youkai do anything if they're just an explanation for a phenomenon?
We've seen youkai wandering the village, we've seen girls flying, we've seen magical danmaku shows. How can you deny the existence of something that can walk up and punch you in the face?

To put it another way: if Kosuzu says "I deny that you're a youkai" and tries to punch Yukari in the face in the next chapter, what would happen? Could Yukari still gap her away?
Let's say the answer is yes. Doesn't that mean that youkai can affect the world whether you believe in them or not? And if something can affect the world, doesn't that mean it exists independently of belief? Why do youkai need to be shrouded in fear and mystery- just perform something that's impossible for humans and prove that you exist.

If Yukari is worried that outside world is believing in youkai less and less, then why not just do something that proves her existence? Wouldn't gapping a train into a city be enough to convince most people she exists? And if she can't just do that, why not? Why is she able to destroy the human village, but not gap a train into a city?

As for the meteor example, that's valid. A meteor destroys a village, people blame it on youkai, therefor youkai "exist". But if that's the case, doesn't that mean that everything we know about touhou, all the incidents, the magical danmaku battles, all the cute monster girls, wouldn't that mean they were all just lies in universe?

The youkai belief of Gensokyo doesn't work on the individual level, though.  One human can deny youkai all they want, but as long as the society is still believing, the youkai will still exist.  And then Kosuzu busts her hand.  Like I said, it's all about politics.  And of course, once youkai are defined as concrete, tangible beings with concrete, tangible powers, they do become a lot easier to believe in.

This leads into another major conceptual basis of Gensokyo - reality there is not as strictly determined by causality the way ours is.  In both worlds there are causes and there are effects.  And for the most part, cause does still lead to effect.  But in the belief-based Gensokyo, the effects of Great Hakurei Barrier, and its boundary of illusion and reality make it possible for an effect with no known origin to have its own cause defined through human belief.  You can see this concretely numerous times throughout the series, most notably through the power of the Occult Balls and Urban Legends.  There will still always be a cause, but in Gensokyo, it doesn't have to be strictly defined in advance.

As for whether it all is a pack of lies, the Mary and Renko albums deal directly with this issue, and even get into the old chestnut of whether there's a difference between consciousness and reality.  Each of them comes to their own conclusion, and in the later ones, you can see this exact Gensokyo paradigm beginning to take shape.

In Gensokyo's case specifically, I think it's rather relevant to remember the conversation that occurs in Part 3 (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_3) of SoPM, in which Byakuren argues that the youkai of Gensokyo were liberated from human imagination and started to develop their own characteristics (though Miko argues that this isn't 100% true in that same conversation). With this in mind, it could be said that Gensokyo is an attempt by the youkai to actually progress themselves, instead of just surviving.

I wonder if the youkai in Gensokyo still really do need humans to survive, or if they just believe that they do (since that's how it always was for them).

This is a very interesting line of thought.  We have seen quite a few things that don't make sense under the traditional Gensokyo metaphysics.  For instance, the Moriya Shrine faith mainly coming from youkai.
But let's turn this around.  If human belief defines Gensokyo's reality and is necessary for the existence of youkai, wouldn't the youkai try to find a way to become independent of the humans?  Really, they are almost at this point already.  They are just as much living, breathing beings with personality and sapience as any human.  They already manipulate the human belief to their own ends.
And now that the human belief's power over Gensokyo is at its highest thanks to a certain Incident, there is opportunity for change, both for Man and Youkai... and Kosuzu will probably be at the center of it all.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on February 28, 2017, 11:32:11 pm
Alright. The last two posts are answers that leave me satisfied. Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on February 28, 2017, 11:57:01 pm
In Gensokyo's case specifically, I think it's rather relevant to remember the conversation that occurs in Part 3 (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_3) of SoPM, in which Byakuren argues that the youkai of Gensokyo were liberated from human imagination and started to develop their own characteristics (though Miko argues that this isn't 100% true in that same conversation). With this in mind, it could be said that Gensokyo is an attempt by the youkai to actually progress themselves, instead of just surviving.

I wonder if the youkai in Gensokyo still really do need humans to survive, or if they just believe that they do (since that's how it always was for them).

Is progress probably like what Kogasa was doing? Article about her said she think she is successful when it's just a pretense and then she had a career change only to fail again and eventually revert back (where she apparently find a bit more of glory now). but don't know if this just Kogasa antics or some ecentric way to surprise people....
That shows that some youkai can be flexible, no matter by with/how they were born. Regardless whether the progress are fruitful or not, yes, attempt to probably not progress but changes, are not outside their scope. tho changes can be a progress depends on the scale.....
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on March 01, 2017, 01:42:42 am
Progress is more like the whole of Tengu and Kappa society, actually. As Byakuren and the others say in that part, their current iterations don't resemble what they were in the past, because inside Gensokyo, they could better decide what they are. When I meant "progress", I meant in the sense of "trying to become more than just solid pieces of human imagination".
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on March 01, 2017, 05:35:01 am
Progress is more like the whole of Tengu and Kappa society, actually. As Byakuren and the others say in that part, their current iterations don't resemble what they were in the past, because inside Gensokyo, they could better decide what they are. When I meant "progress", I meant in the sense of "trying to become more than just solid pieces of human imagination".

So a progress of graduating from the idea of their originator, is it like that?

But since youkai by history are born from that of human imagination and even now the humans keep making babies new youkai, that would make it while their growth can be independent from human belief, their birth would still be dependent on human belief wouldn't it?

Now then it has come to this, who the artist of your avatar? are there higher resolution of it?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on March 01, 2017, 01:06:04 pm
So a progress of graduating from the idea of their originator, is it like that?

But since youkai by history are born from that of human imagination and even now the humans keep making babies new youkai, that would make it while their growth can be independent from human belief, their birth would still be dependent on human belief wouldn't it?
It seems like that, yeah. Though, considering there have been mentions of youkai actually reproducing (tengu lay eggs, at least, going by EaLND chapter 5), maybe they aren't completely dependant of humans to propagate.

But I think this is too speculative to discuss in this thread.

Now then it has come to this, who the artist of your avatar? are there higher resolution of it?
I don't remember. I found it on danbooru years ago. Now that I think about it I shouldn't have used it without asking permission from the artist...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on March 01, 2017, 09:15:45 pm
I forgot that, that's good to keep in mind. and by appreciating the funguses, yeah

nyeh, things r lax ere, unless infighting ensues

I don't remember. I found it on danbooru years ago. Now that I think about it I shouldn't have used it without asking permission from the artist...
nah, everybody does it anyway
normal tag searching didn't find it, google image just as useful, it's unfair if everyone else have the higher res
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on March 09, 2017, 03:04:30 am
So, what is our opinion on Maeriberry/Marrybelly/Maribel thing? And why it was never changed?

At Thai forum over here, they said that it can be either of the above but absolutely not Maribel. They thought that we never change it because no one objected when our head of translation mistranslated it. They add that If we are to change now, we would have to correct all misunderstandings in everything since inception including discussions on several webpages and imageboards. Even then, it would a case of "Yeah, I just mistranslated it" which would damage our wiki's reputation and credibility.

I'm not sure if their thought was right, so I would like hear why this is the case?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on March 09, 2017, 03:50:32 am
There was never an official translation/romanization of マエリベリー, partly because it was made up by ZUN and not an actual name. Maribel was just something that most closely resembled an actual name.

It mostly doesn't matter since Merry does the job.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on March 09, 2017, 04:05:05 am
Ah, I thought as much. Thanks.

And they were still going on with this dumb debate even if it is not official...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 09, 2017, 06:38:12 am
Also see the bonus question asked to him off-camera at AWA (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN's_AWA_Q%26A_Panel#Extra). More context available at this thread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,15524.msg1026023.html#msg1026023).

Quote
Q: A question about Maeriberi Haan. It's understood her family name is based on Lafcadio Hearn, who took the Japanese name Yakumo Koizumi. What is her first name based on, and how do you write it in Romaji/Western writing?

ZUN: I don't know either.

In other words, not only is it a strictly unofficial discussion, but it officially cannot be known. Source is from Solamarle who was a major translator of Touhou works in years gone by and so is very reliable.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on March 09, 2017, 07:05:10 am
Haha, that's pretty much a case just like Yuma's Kattobingu (Yugioh ZEXAL) where discussions of its real meaning are pointless cuz it's a made-up word.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 09, 2017, 07:36:57 am
Also also, note that
They add that If we are to change now, we would have to correct all misunderstandings in everything since inception including discussions on several webpages and imageboards.
We have done this before. The terminology of "phantom" and "ghost" was one big one, and the whole "Ability to the extent of X" fiasco was another (in addition to other various things Tosiaki involved himself in). I'm sure there are more that aren't coming to mind right now.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on March 09, 2017, 10:47:55 pm
What is it that separates fairies from youkai and gods? Is it just how strong they are? Like, we have the fairy of spring Lily White. What would have to happen for her to turn into a youkai of spring? Why wasn't she a youkai or a god of spring in the first place, whereas someone like the Akis were always gods? Or should I assume the Akis were fairies initially too?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on March 10, 2017, 12:44:02 am
Fairies are incarnations of natural phenomena, such as the blooming of flowers, the light of the stars, the fires of hell, and so forth.  As long as their nature exists, they will keep reviving.  At times their abilities may overlap with those of gods or youkai, but the biggest difference is that fairies don't get involved with the whole human belief deal.  Gods and youkai need someone to believe in them, while the seasons will turn whether or not they're believed in or not, barring another Spring Snow Incident.

Whether or not a fairy can become another type of being or not is unknown.  I personally believe that they can, that any being that gains enough faith can be a god, and any being that causes enough terror can be a youkai.  It may be a situation like with the Countless Gods, where ZUN has said that naming and defining the god may give it faith and power, but it also restricts it to a certain domain.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 10, 2017, 03:52:10 am
Sophilia gets the gist across. Youkai are manifestations of specific fears and superstitions, precisely because those fears and superstitions are imagined as actual beings. Fairies are more like phenomena that just plainly exist, and would "depend on belief" only the the very general way that things like magic also would. There's no reason individual fairies couldn't change their existence to be that of a youkai, but that's more up to how they're already perceived.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: ExPorygon on March 12, 2017, 04:25:08 am
Sophilia gets the gist across. Youkai are manifestations of specific fears and superstitions, precisely because those fears and superstitions are imagined as actual beings. Fairies are more like phenomena that just plainly exist, and would "depend on belief" only the the very general way that things like magic also would. There's no reason individual fairies couldn't change their existence to be that of a youkai, but that's more up to how they're already perceived.
If fairies don't rely on human belief to exist then why do they only seem to exist in Gensokyo? I'm assuming there aren't fairies all over the place in the outside world. Is the Gensokyo environnment more suited to them somehow or do they actually exist in the outside world but are just not known?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 12, 2017, 04:53:21 am
I couldn't answer that for sure, and I don't really have a good guess either. My haphazard thoughts would be that fairies, being manifestations of nature, kind of "are" the nature; they don't pop into existence because of the nature, the nature is what they are, and the physical manifestations are what you'd call fairies. This idea is supported by PMiSS which uses much of the same wordings ("embodiment", "nature itself", etc). With that in mind, they're everywhere in Gensokyo because the belief in fairies as a phenomenon is commonplace, but people in the Outside World don't really believe much in fairies. The nature still exists, but the physical manifestations might not be widespread. This is a key difference with youkai, who are much more specific and individual as targets of belief, and are thought of as the cause/explanation for mysterious happenings, rather than existing as a part of said happenings.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on March 12, 2017, 10:07:38 am
There also fairies in hell, while there i assume no any living people. Maybe even souls of dead people can also fuel that belief? or maybe something other than human can also fuel their(fairy) existence?
Or are fairies in hell actually something different than fairies in Gensokyo ?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on March 12, 2017, 02:34:17 pm
The existence of hell may be due to the living believing in it, but once hell exists, it will have its own nature, and nature is what generates fairies.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on March 12, 2017, 04:48:30 pm
From what I understand, Lampads work differently than other fairies. They don't necessarily have to be born from nature.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: mlc3141 on March 12, 2017, 06:21:42 pm
https://youtu.be/WPnG52ecv_4
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on March 13, 2017, 12:27:44 am
I just read about this Lampad, there (google first page lol) they said Lampad are a kinds of Nymph, who are more of a Divine Spirit rather than just Spirit, which should mean they are closer to God rather than Youkai (Well, they are a follower of goddess).
That makes it Clownpiece are of higher "grade" than Fairies of Gensokyo, i think?

Tho Clownpiece as a Lampad, seem to act like youkai and normal fairies. doesn't give a vibe of divine, from how i view her.
Or maybe because her "nature" are hell so that Clownpiece rather than Divine Spirit class, she actually a class of vengeful spirits? (make her a fitting allies for Junko i think).
And she also life away from hell, which makes it seemingly that fairies or maybe just lampad at least, can life away from their "nature".

Are there anything saying Gensokyo fairies can receive or process Faiths(from human or youkai) and make it possible for fairies to even become gods (and become "unbound" from their "nature")?
I do read most of printwork and some game dialogue, but i don't have reliable memories.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Failure McFailFace on March 14, 2017, 05:20:00 am
I know that it's been discussed before (probably), but I'm utterly confused about the plots of about 13.5 to 15.

So what the hell happened in the backstory that eventually led to LoLK? How tangled is this multi-game plot?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on March 14, 2017, 05:52:09 am
In 13.5, the youkai made from the original collection of Noh masks made by Prince Shoutoku, Hata no Kokoro, lost her mask of hope, destabilizing her (as in, giving her emotions) and sending her into a quest to find it. After getting beaten by everyone, she gets a pep talk from Mamizou and decides that she doesn't need the mask anymore and will live as she is now.

In 14, the amanojaku Seija Kijin, who was (ostensibly) bullied by stronger youkai, convinced the inchling Shinmyoumaru Sukuna to use the Miracle Mallet (which can only be used by inchlings) to cause a revolution in Gensokyo to make it so that the weak would rule over the strong. Messing around with the Mallet creates a bunch of tsukumogami, including Reimu's purification rod, Marisa's mini-hakkero, and Sakuya's knives, which's what tips the heroines that something's wrong. They beat everyone and things go back to normal (well, Reimu's purification rod still seems to be alive but no one cares it seems).

In 14.3, Seija is being hunted by everyone because there's a price on her head due to her actions in 14. People use impossible spell cards against her, and she uses stolen items to survive. She escapes everyone, and ends up alone and friendless against the world. Which's how she likes.

In 14.5, a bunch of Urban Legends start becoming alive in Gensokyo due to the power of mysterious Occult Balls. Many characters use the power of these balls for their own purposes. Most importantly, Kasen uses it to go to the outside world to search for her arm, and a girl from the outside world, Sumireko Usami, uses it to enter Gensokyo. Nothing is really resolved at the end of this, but Sumireko starts regularly visiting Gensokyo afterwards.

In 15, Lunarian vehicles are spotted in Youkai Mountain purifying the land (ie, utterly destroying everything). Eirin makes a special medicine, the Ultramarine Orb, for the heroines, so that they can properly fight the amaaaaazing Lunarian forces (the medicine makes them sort of see the future, which's why you have infinite lives; the protagonist "sees" how they'd get hit, so they can avoid it properly). The heroines arrive on the moon (using a secret passage through the spirit/dream world), where they discover that the Occult Balls where created by the goddess Sagume Kishin as part of her backup plan to relocate the Moon Capital to Gensokyo (through the materialization of the urban legend that says that NASA discovered a civilization on the moon), which is under attack by a mysterious force who is using fairies (embodiments of life) to bring life to the moon and, as a consequence, death, filling it with impurity (which will make the Lunarians not be ultra special immortals like they like to be). The protagonists then defeats that enemy, Junko, who was attacking the moon because of her grudge against Chang'e, whose husband killed her son. After defeating her, the protagonists also fight her co-conspirator, Hecatia Lapislazuli, who was keeping the Lunarians from waking from their emergency sleep (in which they were put by the higher ups of the Moon so that they wouldn't know about the attack). They defeat her and Junko once more and everything goes back to normal (urban legends are still around because I guess Sagume couldn't be assed to make the Occult Balls stop working)

I wrote all this off the top of my head so some stuff is probably off, but I think the basics are there.
As you can see, Touhou 13.5 has nothing to do with 14; 14 only has to do with 14.3; and 14.5 only has to do with 15. The mangas deal with the urban legends too, but there isn't any ultra relevant info there iirc.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on March 14, 2017, 06:11:59 am
Isn't it only the Lunar Capital occult ball that were made by Sagume?
I don't know about the original text, but the english were worded as if it's like that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 14, 2017, 08:52:00 am
Yes, that's the only significant thing I'd bother correcting. Sagume only created the Lunar Capital Occult Ball which happens to be really powerful; the rest are basically "natural" ones.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Reimu's purification rod had stopped moving as reported in FS 12.

As far as I can tell, the explanation for the Urban Legend Incident is that by using the Occult Balls' lack of "common sense" to disrupt the Hakurei Barrier and get through, the urban legends were carried from the Outside into Gensokyo, which is why they all came from the Outside's rumors. How they're actually connected doesn't seem to be explained besides the Lunar Capital ball helping materialize them. Sumireko was also spreading rumors herself about what the Balls could do in order to get people to collect them. However that was only a kick-start to the incident, and now it seems like anything goes.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on March 14, 2017, 09:42:20 am
Sagume didn't pass up the chance to have her ball riding along the party, hehehehe lol
sorry

Since she used the Occult Ball, does that mean she have some control over it? even the natural ones too?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 14, 2017, 09:51:51 am
Her profile says she created Lunar Capital ball and that it was what could materialize urban legends. This is why the urban legends materializing wasn't strictly a part of Sumireko's plan, and it also falls in line with the observation in ULiL that the Lunar Capital ball was more powerful than the rest.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on March 14, 2017, 08:25:02 pm
This is a dumb question as I already have a feeling about the answer. I need to know the context of the interview with Zun where he apparently said that Hecatia was the strongest.... Yeah one of these dumb things.

Someone was asking about strong characters and someone mentioned the other wiki about Hecatia. (it doesn't even cite the interview so i find it very suspect...) I basically said that talking about power is useless in Touhou as it's like power levels in DBZ at this point, i just need to know if that was a accurate statement or ZUN just saying misleading things like he's done from time to time.

(Sorry to even ask, trying to convey to them that it's worthless to talk about anything like that.)

EDIT: Managed to finally find it on the forum so no longer need the interview but still unsure why he says that with no context to anything really. why is she above someone like Flandre's ability, or Yukari's even. See where I'm coming from? This is the dumbest question I swear.

Your free to skip (or delete) this, a question like this probably don't have a definitive answer beside "ZUN said so" and it would create more problems since power talk is not welcome.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on March 14, 2017, 09:55:26 pm
Character abilities are very vague, and don't always have clearly defined limits. That doesn't mean limits don't exist- we just don't know what they are. For example, the thing I just love referencing, Yukari can't gap herself to the moon except in very specific circumstances, and she can't gap herself to the top of youkai mountain in one go. Even though she can manipulate boundaries, that doesn't mean she can absolutely manipulate any boundary in any way she wants. So assuming Yukari is stronger than, say, Yorihime, based solely on their abilities would be a mistake.

On the flip side of that, Remilia's ability is to manipulate fate, which is vague and never seen. But that doesn't mean that's all she can do. She has all the generic vampire powers, such as extreme strength and speed, and the power to make devil's contracts. Judging Remilia solely on her ability, she would be pretty weak. But that's not all she can do.

Similarly, a god's power is heavily based on how much faith they have. In general, you would think a god of the sky would have at least as much power as a god of the sea. But because Kanako doesn't get as much worship as, say, Susanoo, she'll never be able to match him despite being gods of similar concepts.

Long story short, we can't really judge any character's power level except by what they say, by what ZUN says, and by the feats they've accomplished, or unless their powers (not just their abilities) are explained thoroughly. There are just way too many factors besides ability that come into play. I don't know exactly what makes Hecatia so powerful, but ZUN said she's the strongest, so that's all we have to go by for now.

(Also just to cover myself, I'm not discussing any specific character's power level. I'm just trying to explain how a person with a "weaker ability" could possibly be stronger than a person with a "more powerful ability", without referring to anyone specifically. I'm not insisting that anyone is more powerful than anyone else.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on March 14, 2017, 10:54:57 pm
I say it should be appropriate to take into consideration a peculiar character's level of spirituality too :

In WaHH chapter 35 (iirc ?), Yukari mentionned how Sumireko's switcheroo power takes into account a similarity that is not only in mass but also in spirituality : point is, everything has a certain level of spirituality, from a rock to gods ie. I'd say spirituality's relevance has a lot to do with core elements to Gensokyo's setting : faith and how it empowers gods or allow to become a god, ascetic practice and how it empowers humans, the power of tradition, fear and how it empower youkai and so on...

Now then, if we compare different beings who are located on differents level of spirituality (ignoring the peculiar traits of the races while focusing on how things are in general), we can see for example that the ones with spirituality tend not only to have supernatural abilities, but are also less affected by common phenomons and notions : regular humans are... nothing special, but the more special ones with some spiritual power have some abilities, those who rised above humanity are less affected by aging, and so on... Basically, beings with lower level of spirituality < beings with higher level of spirituality, in more ways than one.

The difference is further stressed by the fact that the residents of pure lands (Celestials, Lunarians) are generally presented as vastly superior compared to the more impure ones.

Basically, there are some people who are so spirituality high up there they are actually ABOVE (or can ignore) the laws of physics, nature, and some more. Heck, the ones who are above others in levels of spirituality can even straight up ignore some things, such as other character's abilities (ie : Yukari on Keine back in IN ; the hourai elixir and the volcano on Sakuyahime's power back in CiLR) or death and time (ie : Mokou and Kaguya with hourai elixir)

Now then, for Hecatia, besides the obvious wordofgod in StrangeCoOW, she is a pretty high ranked Goddess who own her own hell(s(?)). There ain't a lot of characters like that even in Touhou, so yeah, it's fairly obvious that she is a being who, spiritually, is pretty much in another plane of existence.
And woo, dodged them powerlevels issues like i'd do a stage 1 spellcard
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on March 15, 2017, 04:12:49 am
There is a lot about the characters that are overly exaggerated, I think ZUN said that its like a wrestling match in terms of danmaku battles. The sad thing that kinda started me talking about this was because the people I was talking to was using the touhou.wikia fun facts on Hecatia which says: According to an Interview with ZUN, she's the strongest Touhou character to date, stating: "Since she's an enemy that doesn't play by the rules, you can't even call it a proper match. It's just playing around. She's completely past the level of anyone in Gensokyo or the Lunar Capital."

Now upon looking at the interview on en.touhouwiki.net it says: Since she's an enemy that doesn't play by the rules, you can't even call it a proper match. It's just playing around. She's completely past the level of anyone in Gensokyo or the Lunar Capital. Though I ended up not doing it, I personally wanted to make it so that whenever she changed her hair color, her T-shirt would change too (laugh).

This this one it seems he wanted to make her all powerful but decided to change that focus on her (granted I'm sure she is since she is a god on all.)
I get the feeling that if anyone reads the wikia they might end up with the wrong impression like the people I talked to was.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 15, 2017, 05:30:01 am
No, I'm pretty sure that's exactly his intention. The interviewer starts by saying the last time we've fought a goddess was Kanako, and ZUN is saying that she's completely different from Kanako and it isn't worth comparing them, since for Hecatia it wouldn't even be considered having a "match", as it might be with Kanako, it's just her playing around and not taking it seriously at all [even if you were putting forth your full effort, etc]. The point is definitely to highlight the difference in rank. The comment on changing her shirt is just a separate response to the other thing the interviewer mentioned, being how she doesn't speak outside of the Otherworld body so you can't tell if her personalities are different.

Honestly I would wager that the main reason Hecatia is such a weirdo in the first place is because ZUN wouldn't feel comfortable adding in a character of this extreme without giving them a reason to not care about anything that happens in regard to the rest of the setting. Rather than very powerful meddling or scheming characters, she's just an unfathomably powerful character that acts to her whimsy, but those whims are always weird stuff so it doesn't massively interfere with other things.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on March 15, 2017, 06:35:15 am
I see, thanks for clearing that up. Honestly it's even hard to imagine what she can do, but that kinda feels like the point as well since she's beyond anything we've seen. Sorry for bringing this up.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on March 22, 2017, 03:15:31 pm
Speaking of that, how was that interpreted in the eastern fandom? A dude on danbooru (here (http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/2664625)) says that according to some jap people it was supposed to be read in another way.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 22, 2017, 06:56:51 pm
Well, to start, it's a comment on a Zounose panel, on Danbooru. Forgive me if I'm going to be biased against any discussion stemming from that context.

I don't think their explanation is very good, but I do agree that the context of 「幻想郷とか月の都とかいうレベルを完全に超えている」 could refer instead to cheating, and in that case would be more along the lines of "it's a whole different story from the kind of play you'd expect from Gensokyo or the Lunar Capital". My issue is more that, Hecatia isn't breaking rules? If you read her dialogue she definitely has no qualms with fighting unfairly (2v1, 4v1, etc) and would probably kill you if she cared enough to, but the whole ordeal is so much of a game that she doesn't care that much, it just isn't as fun playing fairly. When Junko tells Hecatia to fight fairly, and when Junko cancels the plan once you beat them, Hecatia has no problem with that; the whole plan was never hers, she just wanted in on the revenge. Her threat of death is just as playful as anything else, as should be evident in her attitude even after you beat her.

If this were about the main story and Junko instead, then this would be totally different because not being content with mock duels is the danger in the main story, where Junko intends to end you out of rage and you're given the medicine so she doesn't do that. In this situation, I would say that the above would be translated under this context. But this isn't the case in Extra. Additionally, I don't think it makes sense to say this when the quote is supposed to be a comparison to fighting Kanako. "This is the first time we've fought a goddess since Kanako, isn't it" doesn't lead to "yeah but Hecatia [is cheating] so it isn't the same". The core point, as I said above, is that you were "fighting" with Kanako but Hecatia is merely "playing" with you.

Personally, I don't put stock into "powerlevels" in the first place, and we don't even have any real measure of what Hecatia can do, so the label of whether Hecatia is "stronger" or not still doesn't matter regardless of validity. Whether ZUN says she stronger than everyone else in the series doesn't matter, because being "stronger" is not important.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on March 22, 2017, 07:53:27 pm
I'm curious about the relationship between the moon and the afterlife. Is there anywhere I can find out more about this?

To be more specific, I'm confused about what happens if a Lunarian dies. The existence of Hecatia's Lunar Hell implies that Lunarians do go through the afterlife process just like everyone else. But would that imply that the Yama etc have, like, some kind of jurisdiction over the Lunarians? So the Lunarians wouldn't be the absolute leagues above-everyone-else gods they're treated as, politically speaking?

Also, since Celestials are pure like Lunarians, would that mean they're more or less equals? Tenshi's family were promoted to Celestials due to their good deeds- would Lunarians be promotable to Celestials too, or.......? Would that be more like a demotion.....?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on March 22, 2017, 08:27:24 pm
Since Celestials are pure like Lunarians, would that mean they're more or less equals? Tenshi's family were promoted to Celestials due to their good deeds- would Lunarians be promotable to Celestials too, or.......? Would that be more like a demotion.....?
Lunarians achieved pure status through artificial means, unlike Celestials (which is also why they get boned in LoLK), so it should count as a promotion. But as a Society they are superior to Celestials in various other aspects (technology, weaponry, ...)

not sure if canon provides a decisive answer for this tbh
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 22, 2017, 09:57:15 pm
I don't think that can really be talked about concretely.

Some Lunarians are the Heavenly Gods, and you can't really say if they can die or not? Traditional gods can't die but only because they persist on faith and don't necessarily have the whole religion backing them. Meanwhile when gods "die" they simply cease existing. Other Lunarians even if descended from the Heavenly Gods might not be similarly immortal, and so maybe they can die and reincarnate? But like there's a big issue with this just because it's the mixing of Shinto (gods) and Buddhism (afterlife) and also the fact that it's on the moon.

My wild guess would be that if it's ever addressed officially, there would be a separate jurisdiction for the Lunar Capital, or the system would be reinterpreted. But somehow I doubt that will ever be officially talked about.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: erired1110 on March 23, 2017, 02:01:45 am
I have a question.
Is anything even said in canon about whether or not the characters get to keep their 'Impossible Spellcards' or not after the events in ISC?
If so, what purpose would the characters be able to use them for?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on March 23, 2017, 03:19:36 am
It isn't really the spell cards themselves that are impossible, it's just the danmaku being shot that's made infeasible to dodge. The games interpret them as the character always doing the same set actions but "realistically" speaking they would just shoot more or fewer bullets as they want to.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on March 31, 2017, 08:02:34 am
How does extermination works in Touhou? By extermination, I mean a scenario where Reimu really goes up to youkai and kill them. Do they go to the netherworld or simply just disappear? If they do go to the netherworld, how about ghosts and phantoms? Do they get kicked out of the reincarnation cycle or simply just disappear in thin air?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 31, 2017, 11:26:26 am
Her profile says she created Lunar Capital ball and that it was what could materialize urban legends. This is why the urban legends materializing wasn't strictly a part of Sumireko's plan, and it also falls in line with the observation in ULiL that the Lunar Capital ball was more powerful than the rest.

This is from a while ago, but it's implied in the comics that whatever Sagume did, it's way more far-reaching then just a single item that has an effect. She changed the very nature of Gensokyo at the most fundamental level. The analogy they use is that her poison has gotten into Gensokyo at the roots. To get rid of it, you'd have to chop down the entire tree, not just prune a branch or two. This is why the Urban Legend Incident is considered still ongoing and no one can do anything about it. If it were just the Lunar Capital ball then Yukari would just throw it away or something.

How does extermination works in Touhou? By extermination, I mean a scenario where Reimu really goes up to youkai and kill them. Do they go to the netherworld or simply just disappear? If they do go to the netherworld, how about ghosts and phantoms? Do they get kicked out of the reincarnation cycle or simply just disappear in thin air?

Youkai aren't outside the circle of reincarnation, so they should turn into ghosts normally. Killing ghosts does remove them from the circle, but only a few things are actually capable of doing that and anyone who's done so has been scolded for it. Not because it's cruel, but because it allows them to achieve Nirvana without going through the normal process of enlightenment. Dead ghosts have received a reward they don't deserve.

Most of the time when Reimu exterminates someone they just use it as a euphemism for "beat up" though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on March 31, 2017, 12:13:45 pm

Youkai aren't outside the circle of reincarnation, so they should turn into ghosts normally. Killing ghosts does remove them from the circle, but only a few things are actually capable of doing that and anyone who's done so has been scolded for it. Not because it's cruel, but because it allows them to achieve Nirvana without going through the normal process of enlightenment. Dead ghosts have received a reward they don't deserve.

Most of the time when Reimu exterminates someone they just use it as a euphemism for "beat up" though.

Can you kill ghosts like Yuyuko that are outside of the circle of reincarnation?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on March 31, 2017, 12:52:00 pm
Yuyuko isn't outside the circle, she's just anchored into one part of it. She's stopped moving within the circle. It should be possible to kill her, with anything that can normally kill ghosts. She's not special in that sense.

It's important to remember that the goal of Buddhism is to die a final death. Life is inherently filled with suffering, and therefore the only way to find true peace is through oblivion. I mean, it's way more complicated than that, but Yuyuko is definitely within the circle.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on March 31, 2017, 01:27:49 pm
So if Yuyuko gets killed, she will achieve nirvana right? Am I correct to say that once someone has reached nirvana, he/she would ascend to heavens as a celestial and get to chill there forever? Also, how would the Saigyou Ayakashi be affected if Yuyuko dies?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on March 31, 2017, 08:19:38 pm
Nah, Celestials can still die, so that they can go back to the circle. Nirvana is beyond that. You can kinda call it non-existence, if you wanna oversimplify it.

Considering that Yuyuko's rebirth would lead to the destruction of the Saigyou Ayakashi's seal, I think that her achieving Nirvana would result in the same.
Not that it can do anything, since there aren't any humans in Hakugyokurou for it to feed on.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on April 11, 2017, 11:21:16 am
Youmu's Hakurouken is able to send phantoms to nirvana while Youmu's Roukanken is able to kill 10 phantoms in one stroke. What does it mean by killing phantoms? Do they get sent to nirvana too? I ask this because according to the information given above, killing ghosts send them to nirvana but I feel that it's weird that both of youmu's swords have the same ability. But then again, ghost and phantom are 2 separate beings but I believe their reincarnation cycle should be the same?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on April 11, 2017, 04:20:40 pm
It's all a bit confusing in-universe as well. As Akyuu says:

Quote from: Akyuu
The longer sword is Roukanken.
It's believed that Roukanken was forged by youkai, and it's too long to be used by normal humans.
It's said that it has the power to kill ten phantoms in one stroke, but as one cannot actually kill spirits(*4), it's unknown if this is true(*5).
The other sword, Hakurouken, is the ancestral sword of the Konpaku family, and it's said to have the power to dispel the confusion of those it cuts.
That is, using it on phantoms will send them to nirvana, and using it on humans will cause them discomfort and a bit of pain.
The exact details of its function are unclear, but it can only be handled by the Konpaku family.

(*4) Normally they are sent to nirvana or disappear.
(*5) Supposedly the things it cannot cut are next to none.

I just read the "kills 10 ghosts in one strike" thing more as a boast about the sword's cutting power than an actual ability, but eh. The long sword being able to send 10 ghosts to Nirvana at once while the short sword can only send 1 ghost to Nirvana at a time is a valid reading and to be honest I find it kinda hilarious.

When you need to open space in the Netherworld quickly, use Roukanken! When you can do it at your leisure, use Hakurouken!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on April 11, 2017, 08:30:01 pm
It's all a bit confusing in-universe as well. As Akyuu says:

I just read the "kills 10 ghosts in one strike" thing more as a boast about the sword's cutting power than an actual ability, but eh. The long sword being able to send 10 ghosts to Nirvana at once while the short sword can only send 1 ghost to Nirvana at a time is a valid reading and to be honest I find it kinda hilarious.

When you need to open space in the Netherworld quickly, use Roukanken! When you can do it at your leisure, use Hakurouken!

(*4) Normally they are sent to nirvana or disappear

What do they mean by disappear?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on April 12, 2017, 06:04:35 am
Annihilation, probably.  Either way, it is thought of as a great sin by the Yama.  Souls that have not earned Nirvana should not be given it, and the destruction of souls should be the very last resort, as even those sent to Hell may reincarnate in time.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on April 13, 2017, 04:04:20 am
We have quite a bit of interactions between Yukari and Reimu, but do we know what the dynamic is between Yukari and Marisa? Or just in general, I'm curious about what Yukari thinks of her and/or how she might interact with her.
Related, what characters are Yukari the most friendly or most likely to get along with in the rest of the touhou cast?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on April 13, 2017, 04:35:13 am
Yukari teases Marisa. Pretty simlar to her relationship with Reimu.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on April 14, 2017, 02:35:08 pm
Why do people unfamiliar with Touhou keep associating fan games with the series' spin-offs? It really blows my mind that they never google or double-check the game/series they are watching, buying or reviewing? Over the past weeks, I have seen multiple (p)reviews of Genso Wanderer claiming that they expect a shmup from this series but a got a "spin-off" instead. Granted, it is not all of them, but it is still a large majority nonetheless.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on April 14, 2017, 03:34:17 pm
Because most people don't expect fan games to get official releases instead of main line games, or at least official spin-offs.  Most folks aren't used to the doujin scene, let alone alone how ZUN's license works. They're used to tightly controlled copyrights and stuff. To be fair? In practically every other case, it's correct, so you can see why people would assume it here.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on April 15, 2017, 05:07:20 pm
So this guy in my office has a USB controller, and just for fun I've been going through the series with it.

Games early in the series, like IN and MoF, are pretty unwieldy. DDC is a bit smoother. But LoLK? It's like this game was made for a controller rather than keyboard.

Weirdest of all, even though I feel as though I have less control, I'm actually scoring better.

This makes me wonder: were any or all these games made particularly for a controller? If I recall ZUN plays the games himself with a pad, I think. I imagine he programs these games with both keyboard and controller in mind, given the config settings. Just seems some of these games operate much better with one than the other. Or, it could be just a matter of me getting more used to using a controller. I dunno, I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on April 15, 2017, 06:18:51 pm
You're just getting used to it. I've posted about this before, but japanese games outside of VNs are almost universally made and tested with the assumption that the player will use a controller. Keyboard controls in them were meant for emergencies, that's why they stick with the old arrows + ZXC control scheme from the early 80s and very few japanese games allow you to remap keyboard controls at all, even commercial games.

I would recommend staying away from Xbox gamepads if you plan to buy your own controller. For Touhou, the most popular d-pad styles are the Playstation design (precision) and the Sega Saturn design (speed and comfort).

Here's what you can do with a DualShock 3, which has a somewhat less sensitive d-pad compared to previous designs: http://i.imgur.com/VdzaPZy.png

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on April 15, 2017, 10:06:20 pm
You're just getting used to it. I've posted about this before, but japanese games outside of VNs are almost universally made and tested with the assumption that the player will use a controller. Keyboard controls in them were meant for emergencies, that's why they stick with the old arrows + ZXC control scheme from the early 80s and very few japanese games allow you to remap keyboard controls at all, even commercial games.

I would recommend staying away from Xbox gamepads if you plan to buy your own controller. For Touhou, the most popular d-pad styles are the Playstation design (precision) and the Sega Saturn design (speed and comfort).

Here's what you can do with a DualShock 3, which has a somewhat less sensitive d-pad compared to previous designs: http://i.imgur.com/VdzaPZy.png

Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm still putting down the controller and switching to keyboard for some spellcards but for the most part it's quite a difference.

And this (http://www.gearzap.com/logic3-powerpad-playstation-3-controller.html) is the controller in question. It's very precise. Definitely prefer it for graze-intensive games like LoLK.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on April 16, 2017, 12:08:59 am
I've been getting some pretty conflicting information depending on who I ask/where I read.

In DDC, is it Sakuya's knives that are possessed, or is it some totally separate sword that she found? It seems like the knives would make more sense, so I'm wondering if there was some mistranslation or something, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

(I've been under the impression it was a separate sword until I really looked at it recently.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on April 19, 2017, 05:49:21 pm
Does Yuyuko's death manipulation ability work on Gods, lunarians and yamas? Or a better question would be : Other than the immortals, who does the ability not work on?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on April 19, 2017, 06:33:01 pm
Lunarians are more or less just fancy humans, so I'd assume it works on them. They're not totally free from impurity, they have a tiny amount, so they naturally die *eventually*, it just takes a looooooong time.

Gods and youkai are stated to be incredibly similar species (the main difference between them being youkai are feared where gods are worshipped). Since Yuyuko's ability is explicitly stated to work on youkai, I would assume it can work on gods too.

As for the Yama, I have no idea how they work, we don't have much information on them. However, if they can eventually die themselves I would assume Yuyuko can kill them.

This is all speculation, of course. There's nothing official saying that she can or can't kill these things afaik.

The reason she can't kill people of hourai is because they're immune to change. You can't kill them because death would be a change. You can't remove their change immunity, because that would be a change. They can never be altered in any way. At least, in theory.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on April 19, 2017, 08:43:21 pm
But can Yuyuko kill a meme?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on April 19, 2017, 09:12:39 pm
I've been getting some pretty conflicting information depending on who I ask/where I read.

In DDC, is it Sakuya's knives that are possessed, or is it some totally separate sword that she found? It seems like the knives would make more sense, so I'm wondering if there was some mistranslation or something, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

(I've been under the impression it was a separate sword until I really looked at it recently.)

It's her own knives. It's slightly relevant that these are the characters' own personal possessions that have been used with love and care and all that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on April 19, 2017, 09:36:32 pm
Lunarians are more or less just fancy humans, so I'd assume it works on them. They're not totally free from impurity, they have a tiny amount, so they naturally die *eventually*, it just takes a looooooong time.

Gods and youkai are stated to be incredibly similar species (the main difference between them being youkai are feared where gods are worshipped). Since Yuyuko's ability is explicitly stated to work on youkai, I would assume it can work on gods too.

As for the Yama, I have no idea how they work, we don't have much information on them. However, if they can eventually die themselves I would assume Yuyuko can kill them.

This is all speculation, of course. There's nothing official saying that she can or can't kill these things afaik.

The reason she can't kill people of hourai is because they're immune to change. You can't kill them because death would be a change. You can't remove their change immunity, because that would be a change. They can never be altered in any way. At least, in theory.

Yamas are gods of judgment, so if it can be done on a god, it can be done on them.  I don't see it working on gods too well myself but once again, just my opinion.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: dark36 on April 19, 2017, 10:20:54 pm
It's her own knives. It's slightly relevant that these are the characters' own personal possessions that have been used with love and care and all that.
its stated in game when you are about to chose Sakuya it says that how she got the bewitched knives is mystery even to her and in the extra it says that they actually belonged Shinmyoumaru so it wasn't Sakuya's knives being possessed, also in Sakuya's A stage6 Shinmyoumaru says that the knives were an experiment she made. ( at least that's what i have read from the wiki).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 20, 2017, 06:41:39 am
I noticed the DDC translation does need some revision in general, so I might work on that, but this in particular isn't a misinterpretation. In a couple instances it's written a bit ambiguously but 何処で手に入れたかは彼女にも判らなかった is pretty clear-cut. They're indeed knives Shinmyoumaru enchanted. How one (or several) ended up with Sakuya is a mystery, of course.

Importantly, what was pointed out to me (and I really should have noticed earlier) is that Shinmyoumaru's Spell Card 「Bewitched Sword "Shining Needle Sword" 」 are supposed to be made up of the same "Silver Blade"s Sakuya is using. Note the bullet pattern and it should be immediately obvious. The "Bewitched Sword" part is also the 妖剣 that Sakuya's weapon is referred to as.

I think the main issue here is that it's kind of stupid for Reimu's gohei and Marisa's Hakkero to be enchanted but Sakuya's knives are somehow not hers for some reason. Why write in that they were Shinmyoumaru's blades? It's an unnecessary step with exactly the same outcome. That is, without the fact that she also uses these weapons against you. That's the key here imo. (I still think it's a pretty unnecessary choice though)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on April 20, 2017, 07:40:53 am
I think the main issue here is that it's kind of stupid for Reimu's gohei and Marisa's Hakkero to be enchanted but Sakuya's knives are somehow not hers for some reason. Why write in that they were Shinmyoumaru's blades? It's an unnecessary step with exactly the same outcome. That is, without the fact that she also uses these weapons against you. That's the key here imo. (I still think it's a pretty unnecessary choice though)

Reimu's gohei and Marisa's hakkero are magical tools, so that makes them easy to enchant/corrupt, probably. Sakuya uses plain old silver knives, though, so she needed to have something magical to be affected as well. (Interestingly, that might hint at her being a knife collector.)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on April 20, 2017, 09:13:26 am
Alternately, Reimu uses one gohei, and Marisa uses one mini-hakkero. Sakuya, on the other hand, uses a buttload of fungible knives. And she had been retired for a good while after that. So maybe she just didn't make the connection with them needed to cause the whole animating thing?

This assumes, of course, that Reimu doesn't just go through goheis like potato chips, but I think it's safe to assume she'd at least stick with one until it breaks.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on April 26, 2017, 05:41:32 am
I have been thinking about a possible argument that a detractor might make to say that people have been giving ZUN too much credit regarding his games.


"ZUN is unilateral game developer. He only makes games after games for his own story. He doesn't care about fan feedbacks. He doesn't even bother to fix his bugs in the game, like in DS 12-6 and MoF Marisa B. It ruins the experience of a game. However, he says lame excuse like he would rather make new thing rather than fixing the old one. That's how much he care about people who take their time to buy and indulge in his game. You pay him money to get a game with bug. Suppose we got a western Touhou release, we would get the same games with bug anyway because they are old games. Why should we care about his game if that is the case?"


I wonder how people would refute this claim because I think it is true to a certain extent, not because I made it up but because that is what I have seen on many forums like Steam and shmup site.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Romantique Tp on April 26, 2017, 06:37:05 am
Touhou is still a doujin work. Doujin has always been primarily about making the things that you want to make, any profit being just a nice bonus.

I also think that the unfixed bugs besides DS 12-6 could be considered fairly minor, even if you compare the series to commercial games.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on April 26, 2017, 06:41:52 am
There's a big flaw in assuming that ZUN's stance of wanting to create new things rather than go back to what he's already done also refers to bugfixing. Anyone who pays attention enough to know this philosophy should be aware that he's talking about dealing with old material in a technical sense in order to essentially release the same thing again. He doesn't want to just rehash content. This is why instead of only releasing ULiL for PS4 as-is we got bonus content, why he doesn't want to port his own games to PS4, and yes, this is probably at least part of the reason why we don't see much for digital releases. This accusation implies the philosophy is about laziness or something, when it's actually about not wanting to spend his time doing non-creative, dreary technical work for little to no gain, especially when he can instead use that time to do something else.

Claiming that DS 12-6 or MoF MarisaB are game-ruining is being completely dishonest. They are clearly not game-ruining; one due to the already reset-heavy nature of DS alongside it being only one of the Scenes at the end of the game, that doesn't even need to be completed outside of 100% clears; the other because you can easily avoid it and it's an advantageous bug, where at worst a replay is disqualified on a leaderboard because the person was actively abusing the bug. If these are the worst examples of bugs needing to be fixed they barely have an argument. If these were fixed, what ammo would they have? Go bother Bethesda for christ's sake.

That being said, it's also just factually incorrect that he doesn't have patches. EoSD is v1.02h, PCB is 1.00b, IN is 1.00d, UFO is 1.00b, TD is 1.00c, DDC is 1.00b, LoLK is 1.00b. Those for UFO, DDC, and LoLK fixed crashes, and TD fixed an important bug with Trance.
Why didn't he patch those two specific bugs that aren't even that bad? Who knows, maybe because they just aren't that bad. It honestly just sounds like an excuse to complain as a cover for an underlying more selfish reason. If the games were released in the west, I agree we likely wouldn't see any extra bugfixes, but mostly because if they really needed to be fixed they would have been already. Asking "why should we care about his games" as though minor bugs somehow invalidate a game's existence is just really stupid and something I would absolutely expect to come from some shitter on Steam.

As for not caring about "fan feedback", I'm not even sure what that means. Feedback about mechanics? Difficulty? Bugs? Story? Music? Characters? It's his work. Bug reports are about the only thing he should care about, really.

This isn't to say that ZUN is a holy god that can do no wrong and his philosophy is perfect. It obviously isn't. But this sort of criticism of "he doesn't care" feels totally illegitimate to me.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on April 26, 2017, 07:14:39 am
tl;dr "The games are still awesome, bugs or no bugs. Also, stop being such an entitled little [REDACTED]"
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Jeremie on April 26, 2017, 07:30:37 am
As for not caring about "fan feedback", I'm not even sure what that means. Feedback about mechanics? Difficulty? Bugs? Story? Music? Characters? It's his work. Bug reports are about the only thing he should care about, really.

This isn't to say that ZUN is a holy god that can do no wrong and his philosophy is perfect. It obviously isn't. But this sort of criticism of "he doesn't care" feels totally illegitimate to me.

Even then, to a certain degree, it's not like he'd be unjustified about not caring about certain things. With so many elements of the series, it makes sense that he'd forget about some of that stuff or just stop caring. Outside of the actual games, there's so many characters so it would make sense that he'd stop paying attention to many of them. I like to joke that if you asked him why Keine never shows up in FS (outside of rare cameos), his answer would be "Who?" but on a more serious level, there's many reasons why she doesn't and one of them could be he's just not interested about bringing her back. It's indeed his work and didn't he, at some point say that he'd still work on making games even if people stopped playing them and/or stopped paying attention to them too? I don't have any source about that but I'm pretty sure I read that at some point.

There's of course many ways one could legitimately criticize the series but that's not really what the series is all about. A lot of appeal of the series related to the games to some people, or at least I think is that, ZUN is very passionate about what he does and all the work he puts into his work is very appealing in many reasons and there's also the fact that he's working on his works on his own.

It's up to the fans to decide how they feel about flaws, whether minor or major. While Touhou has a special fanbase in many ways, it doesn't change the fact that people will have issues in one way or another. It's ultimately up to each people to decide to they feel about what they think are flaws. On the other hand, judging by how a good chunk of the fanbase is still very loyal, I think it shows they don't worry too much about these sorts of things. Besides, Touhou has so many ways to appeal to people whether it's the games, music and the plethora of fan works.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on April 26, 2017, 09:58:43 am
Ah, I see! So, ZUN actually go against the mindset of most company today that ranges from selling the same stuff over and over *looking at you, Capcom and your Megaman collection* and leaving the game buggy *Ah..., Fallout 4 and Mafia 3*


Yeah, you are right. I can't think of any other bug in the game. I only bring up those two bugs because they are the only two prominent ones that detractors might use as an argument cuz I believe that they will complain only because they see other shmup as bug-free and immediately deduce any game with bug as bad.

As for not caring about "fan feedback", I'm not even sure what that means. Feedback about mechanics? Difficulty? Bugs? Story? Music? Characters? It's his work. Bug reports are about the only thing he should care about, really.

It's not much of a fan feedback, but rather, like developers' participation with their fans outside of releasing games. There are two things that most game developers/companies do and I guess people like it?

First, I think people would complain that, aside from showing game demo image and releasing a game, ZUN never holds a contest/poll, or tease fans about the direction where the next game should go to raise people's interest i.e. "I wonder what if there was a civil war in Gensokyo." That's what Ed Boon from Netherrealm Studios does all the time with Mortal Kombat X and Injustice. Sega also frequently chat with their fans on Twitter everything about Sonic, from fan arts to the upcoming game.

For the second one, I mean like "ZUN never listens to fans wanting Mima back so Touhou sucks!"  I figure people would complain about this because for example, Netherrealm Studio listens to fan request for Alien in Kombat pack 2 or Capcom finally put X in MvC infinite. Fans rejoice!

Yeah..., Those are what I mean about feedback.


Off-topic: Even though I brought Netherrealm Studios Studios as an example, I actually hate them since the release of XL. They actually toy with their fans like they were nothing. Ed Boon once teased about Fujin, Rain, MK story pack and Kombat Pack 3 for countless times to raise fans' interests, and guess what happens now. Those never become true. That's when I cut the cord and abandon MK and all games developed by them entirely. I can feel that they think of fans as their play things.

This is what I learnt from this mess: Do not outright tease and troll your fans of your false upcoming contents to the point that they should be expecting the real thing only for them to get nothing at all.

I'm actually grateful that ZUN does neither of the above because wayyy too many companies nowadays love to play with people's desire for their own profit while ZUN doesn't outright say or promise anything regarding fan demands.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on April 27, 2017, 11:16:27 am
If I'm understanding this tweet (https://twitter.com/IOSYS_OS/status/857543820933611520) from IOSYS correctly, they're going to be at Reitaisai? Weren't they barred from being there? What's the real story with that anyway?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on April 27, 2017, 12:21:54 pm
This is the first I've heard of this supposed banning.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on April 27, 2017, 12:23:51 pm
This is the first I've heard of this supposed banning.

Yeah I have no firsthand sources for this. I only remember "talk" that they got too big or too commercial or something to qualify as doujin anymore? I dunno, I think I'm confusing a couple different stories here maybe.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Onion on April 29, 2017, 12:23:03 am
But can Yuyuko kill a meme?

She can invite it to die. Whether or not it wants to die is another matter.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on May 01, 2017, 12:42:41 pm
The "buttons" on lunar rabbits' ears are part of their uniforms, right?  You know, like the ones on Reisen that made people think her ears are fake.  I remember seeing it in an official work before, but which one?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on May 01, 2017, 03:03:28 pm
I don't recall it ever being directly referenced, but her not having them in LoLK, while giving Seiran an ear buckle, seems like a conscious choice to me.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on May 01, 2017, 05:33:50 pm
I don't recall it ever being directly referenced, but her not having them in LoLK, while giving Seiran an ear buckle, seems like a conscious choice to me.

This makes me think those are actually radio transmitters and the whole telepathy deal is a lie.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on May 02, 2017, 01:40:25 pm
This makes me think those are actually radio transmitters and the whole telepathy deal is a lie.
We have confirmation that Reisen's transmitters are her eyes. Though I guess the ear clips could still be receivers... or she could be wearing contacts. :V
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on May 04, 2017, 01:40:19 pm
I have two questions;

1. Thai wiki said that according to PMiSS, Yuyuko can use her death power on anyone who does not resist but our wiki said that;

死を操る能力とは、文字通り抵抗無く人を殺す事が出来る能力である。
The ability to manipulate death means just as it says, the ability to kill someone with no resistance.

From the way it is written, it basically Yuyuko can easily kill anyone and that person will not resist at all, which gives a completely different meaning. So, I wonder which one is correct?


2. (For those who joined the forum during Touhou 12.3 and before that)

This one is a bit weird and it is totally fine if no one can answer it since it was a long time ago and maybe not all of you ever heard of such a thing.
I haven’t joined the forum at that time yet so I have no idea either whether this is true or not.


I don’t know when he wrote this but it is definitely before the full release of Touhou 12.3 but basically, Thai wiki made fun of our claim on Touhou Wiki that  “Wriggle, Kaguya and Mokou, who was planned to be added to the roster, was scrapped due to them being overpowered and time constraints.” Thai wiki said that the whole thing was false. He said,

“The truth is that at one point, Tasofro showed the in-game screenshot of Touhou 12.3 but most of the characters were blocked by words so we can’t be sure who is in that screen. A pooshlmer user named Wakaba who, as Thai wiki said it, is one of the wiki editor and he apparently is 100% sure that the green hair character is Wriggle (Sanae), the black hair one is Kaguya (Aya) and the white hair one is Mokou (Reisen). Once the game came out, Wakaba was wrong but he was afraid of losing his credibility so he made the time constraints things up by citing an unreliable source so it becomes what we see today. In fact, there is no way Tasofro would be adding or removing characters since ZUN is the one writing the story. Moreover, there are many overpowered characters in Touhou that is made balanced and playable so why can’t Mokou and Kaguya?”

That’s basically it. He didn’t save the screenshot and the discussion because he didn’t think someone would dare write such thing on the wiki.


TL;DR The Wriggle, Kaguya and Mokou scrapped plan stuff was all made up by our wiki editor to avoid losing his credibility.

What I want to know is whether there is such an advertisement before the full release of Touhou 12.3. Either way, those Thai wiki people will eat their own word once they find out this piece of evidence. https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Interview_on_Nae_Radio_(September_2009) They rarely have the Interviews and Statements stuffs which is present on our wiki so they ironically just made stuff up and blame us for nothing once again.



Well, this is the last of their insults that I have found before I joined this forum.


P.S. They also accuse us of stealing their own version of Team 9 named "Baka Ranger" with Daiyousei as the fifth, and made what was ours today.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on May 04, 2017, 03:51:46 pm
I'm not sure where the original quote is from, but this interview (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_Creators_of_Outer_World/Iruka_Unabara_x_ZUN_interview) which is from last year backs up the "ZUN wanted Wriggle and Kaguya etc to be in Hisou" thing. Specifically:
Quote
Back then, ZUN's candidates were Kaguya as boss, then Cirno, Wriggle, Rumia, and Nitori. That was Plan A.

If the english wiki says that about Yuyuko, I think the thai wiki is correct and it was probably a mistranslation. Nothing in game has ever suggested people can resist Yuyuko's power (the fact that she's so surprised that it won't work on Mokou is evidence that people can't).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Zelinko on May 04, 2017, 04:10:13 pm
So I'm trying to figure out if the Tengu actually have a Fortress on Youkai Mountain or if it's a strange thing I produced and just never shook off as it made sense.

I know that Mountain of Faith Stage 4's subtitle is "Mountain Fortress" but I've looked through everything on wiki but never found anything explicitly mentioning anything about the Tengu actually having a fortress.

Have I gone insane or is there something I'm missing?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on May 04, 2017, 05:38:47 pm
If the english wiki says that about Yuyuko, I think the thai wiki is correct and it was probably a mistranslation. Nothing in game has ever suggested people can resist Yuyuko's power (the fact that she's so surprised that it won't work on Mokou is evidence that people can't).
Based on the latter part of your post, i think you meant the thai is wrong?
Also, one of IN ending also says that "the apparently invincible Yuyuko" had a weak point: Hourai immortals. Although that was in the very old translation so who knows.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on May 04, 2017, 07:20:28 pm
Yeah, that's what I meant hahaha. Her conversation in IN extra and pretty much every other time it comes up suggests that her ability kills you whether you want it to or not.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on May 05, 2017, 12:04:06 am
I don’t know when he wrote this but it is definitely before the full release of Touhou 12.3 but basically, Thai wiki made fun of our claim on Touhou Wiki that  “Wriggle, Kaguya and Mokou, who was planned to be added to the roster, was scrapped due to them being overpowered and time constraints.” Thai wiki said that the whole thing was false. He said,

The Thai Wiki sounds like its ran by a bunch of assholes.

Also, off topic but "apparently invincible Yuyuko" is a amazing title.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on May 05, 2017, 02:28:08 am
Correction: Thai wiki is ran by only one guy. He once said that he wanted to imitate ZUN out of admiration by doing the wiki work alone and don't let someone else edit it. Of course, imo he fails at being ZUN since the beginning.

The Thai Wiki sounds like its ran by a bunch of assholes.

Ohhh....boy, you can say that again. I wish you knew how much I hate them with their elitism and hypocrisy.


But enough of the that, so apparently Yuyuko's power works just like Flandre's but nicer, since you don't get blown to bits but instead, you instantly die but your body is intact.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on May 05, 2017, 03:28:02 am
1. Thai wiki said that according to PMiSS, Yuyuko can use her death power on anyone who does not resist but our wiki said that;

死を操る能力とは、文字通り抵抗無く人を殺す事が出来る能力である。
The ability to manipulate death means just as it says, the ability to kill someone with no resistance.

From the way it is written, it basically Yuyuko can easily kill anyone and that person will not resist at all, which gives a completely different meaning. So, I wonder which one is correct?
無く is the adverbial form of 無い here, it's there to modify 殺す. If it were "to kill people who do not resist" it would probably be 抵抗しない人を殺す事.


As for the second question, it would be interesting to try and find sources from before the release of Soku, but the claim that people were making poorly sourced claims about the unused characters before the game came out, should itself be sourced or is otherwise completely baseless as criticism. Given a source it would be a lot easier to examine rather than just taking it for word.

I mean regardless those characters being considered is true, so even if it were the case where Wakaba was making things up he must've been a prophet. That being said, if there were supposed screenshots, that would be more of a reason to believe it was fabricated, as I doubt they would have made sprites for them if they were dropped early enough in development.

EDIT: As a side note, I'm pretty sure the phrasing "the apparently invincible Yuyuko" is incorrect. I don't remember a line like that when looking though before, but I'm on mobile right now so I can't check.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Alrysc on May 05, 2017, 03:45:58 am
Where is the Lunar Capital? Is it in Gensokyo or not? Perfect Memento in Strict Sense says that it's part of the Outside World, but in Wild and Horned Hermit, Marisa says that even going to the moon wasn't enough to get through the barrier.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on May 05, 2017, 04:26:54 am
Obviously, it's on the moon. It has a barrier separating it from the outside world like Gensokyo, but its not actually in Gensokyo.

EDIT: As a side note, I'm pretty sure the phrasing "the apparently invincible Yuyuko" is incorrect. I don't remember a line like that when looking though before, but I'm on mobile right now so I can't check.

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww maaaaaaaan
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on May 05, 2017, 04:34:18 am
Gensokyo is on Earth but is separated by the rest of the Outside World by a boundary of reality and fantasy. Similarly, the Lunar Capital is on the Far Side of the Moon, but that is also a fantastical version of it. By virtue of both being fantastical places, they can be connected somehow. With other fantastical places not in Gensokyo (such as the Netherworld, Higan, and the Underground) it's relatively easy to see that you can just travel there, but this is the same with the Lunar Capital, it's just really far and requires space travel (or alternative). In all of these cases, you never cross into reality, even when in SSiB they took a rocket to the moon. When Marisa says they didn't cross the Barrier even going to the moon, that's because they took a fantastical way to travel. Their rocket was realistically speaking a pile of junk, but because they used the right fantastical methods, they could get there. Incidentally that's also why the trip in SSiB barely took any time compared to a real trip to the moon, they took a fantasy version of a moon trip where the moon seems much closer to Earth than reality.

tl;dr not in gensokyo, but is also a fantastical world so they could travel there given the means to do so

also zun calls these fantastical places "otherworlds"
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Alrysc on May 05, 2017, 02:23:57 pm
Ah, okay, that makes sense if it's another "otherworld".
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on May 05, 2017, 02:48:09 pm
I'm convinced that they travelled through the Dream World in SSiB.

Bougetsushou has a moon rabbit travelling between Gensokyo and the Moon with a Lunar Veil, and it's said that the Lunar Veil is normally used only by moon rabbits. She also claims to be out of sorts because she hit "space debris" along the way.
LoLK has moon rabbits travelling between Gensokyo and the Moon via a route in the Dream World, and it's said that these Kaian Passageways are normally used only by moon rabbits (but implied that you need to have a strong image of your destination to get through them, and someone who wanders into one won't reach the other side automatically). Doremy warns Sanae about hitting nightmare fragments (pronounced "space debris"), saying it would be unpleasant.
Remilia's rocket travels through what looks like space, but has breathable air, which matches the description of the Dream World. The rocket also incorporated part of a Lunar Veil, implying that it travelled there in the same way that Veils do.

Quote from: Doremy (Reisen route)
As you know, the passageway between Earth and the Lunar Capital is the mental world. This is the Dream World!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on May 11, 2017, 11:39:44 am
Shit, Prismriver Ensemble disbanding !!
according to Mountain Percher The Tengu magazine "Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia".

or not,
apparently Raiko Butt Horikawa swallowing them into becoming Horismriver(?)(LMAO) Orchestra (with drum in the front stage LMAO)
am i getting this right? confirm please
and it seems the band are doing some kind of false advertising?

remind me how much i like phantom ensemble, reading the earlier article got me disappointed
sorry impatient


edit : i suppose i will rephrase my words into a more cool manner, please don't mind the spoiler part.
In "Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia" article about Prismriver sister and Raiko, says that Prismriver Ensemble are disbanding. but in another segment seems it turn out it just staged to get attention to annouce Prismriver Ensemble are now to be known as Horismriver Orchestra with Raiko as the new leader. is that right?
sorry, just really impatient waiting for proper translation.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: N-Forza on May 11, 2017, 01:50:22 pm
That's basically what happened, yeah. I totally want to get that translated ASAP but work.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on May 11, 2017, 02:47:31 pm
nice, thanks. still curious about some other detail though, but probably will just wait for the translation.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on May 11, 2017, 05:29:04 pm
Wait what!? They are joining together!? Lets see if maybe someday we get everyone music related together! (Benben and Yatsuhashi need more love.) But why is Raiko the leader of the group? (not that I mind~)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on May 11, 2017, 11:35:46 pm
Seems to be Horikawa antics (also to be known as "Horism" LMAO) where she be like "drum in the back are too mainstream, so i put my drum in the front and might as well become the leader while i'm at it".
The related article had been translated by the way, lol.

It would be cool if ZUN make theme for both Horismriver & Choujuu Gigaku.

Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on May 11, 2017, 11:39:12 pm
Seems to be Horikawa antics (also to be known as "Horism" LMAO) where she be like "drum in the back are too mainstream, so i put my drum in the front and might as well become the leader while i'm at it".
The related article had been translated by the way, lol.

It would be cool if ZUN make theme for both Horismriver & Choujuu Gigaku.

I shall read it in a bit! Go Raiko! XD

That would be very cool actually!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on June 07, 2017, 04:37:53 pm
I'm here to ask for a permission to upload official? images that are missing from our wiki.

Is it all right to upload,

- 4koma in BAiJR?

- 4 different Message Papers like the one in Memorizable Gensokyo. According to the Thai wiki, each of these is received from buying PMiSS at 4 different stores: Toranoana, Melonbooks, White Canvas and Gamers. These papers are not given out anymore.

Of course, the images I'm going to upload are still in Japanese.


For another thing, is there any site for a Japanese transcript for CoLA and BAiJR? As I was looking at both wiki as usual, I noticed that ours misses one or two entire dialogue boxes.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on June 11, 2017, 01:15:47 am
Can Reimu survive having a hole blasted through her head with a real bullet fired from a real gun?

I know, ridiculous question...  I wouldn't be asking this if it weren't for someone asking it first and then being given the response by someone that she can indeed survive a bullet through the head because she has magic, which will keep her alive...

And someone else is sure that if a nuclear bomb is dropped in Gensokyo, the girls can survive no problem because nobody got cancer from being close to Okuu.  Apparently, he can't tell the difference between exposure to radiation and getting caught in a nuclear explosion...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on June 11, 2017, 01:28:59 am
Depends. If Reimu has Fantasy Heaven active, she can probably survive anything. Otherwise, most likely not, she's human, a bullet to the head will kill most of those easily.

Also a nuclear bomb would kill everyone in Gensokyo regardless of if some of the youkai were physically resilient enough to withstand the blast or be able to regenerate from it, because it WOULD kill all humans, and without any humans the youkai would all disappear anyway.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 11, 2017, 02:34:23 am
but gaaaaaiz

reimu had a bomb explode in her face in osp and she didn't die

obviously she's super resilient!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TrueShadow on June 11, 2017, 02:48:05 am
Well, if spellcard rules is in play when she got shot, she would probably be fine. Sumireko uses Gun Sign "3D Printed Gun" and she didn't kill anyone. I'm a gun noob I don't know if 3D printed guns are different
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 11, 2017, 03:17:28 am
I think the intention behind the 3d-printed gun Sumireko has is that in current times, such a gun that a high-schooler could access would either not be very dangerous or just explode. Plus this is Japan, where there's the surrounding context that possession of firearms is strictly prohibited.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on June 11, 2017, 03:23:29 am
but gaaaaaiz

reimu had a bomb explode in her face in osp and she didn't die

obviously she's super resilient!!!!!!!!!
reimu is the hakurei god CONFIRMED
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on June 11, 2017, 04:11:28 am
but gaaaaaiz

reimu had a bomb explode in her face in osp and she didn't die

obviously she's super resilient!!!!!!!!!

My thoughts about that bomb is that its power was intentionally toned down by having much less gunpowder than a normal one, so all it did is splatter snow all over Reimu.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TrueShadow on June 11, 2017, 04:43:14 am
I think the intention behind the 3d-printed gun Sumireko has is that in current times, such a gun that a high-schooler could access would either not be very dangerous or just explode. Plus this is Japan, where there's the surrounding context that possession of firearms is strictly prohibited.
Yeah I know nothing about guns.

My thoughts about that bomb is that its power was intentionally toned down by having much less gunpowder than a normal one, so all it did is splatter snow all over Reimu.
It's also made by fairies. I wouldn't expect it to be deadly.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 11, 2017, 04:58:26 am
It's literally a cartoon bomb
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on June 11, 2017, 05:45:57 am
A 3D printed gun is probably less practical to use than a real gun, but still far more dangerous than, say, an airsoft gun. I mean, it's a real gun that shoots real bullets, just a kind-of-crappy gun, compared to manufactured ones. Relatively shortly before ULiL came out, there was actually a big uproar over some guy in Japan being caught with a gun he made with his 3D printer, thereby bypassing all of Japan's gun control laws. He wasn't using it for anything more than shooting cans or whatever, but the idea that people could just make real guns in their own homes is sort of terrifying for a country without guns.

Obviously it's illegal to own a 3D printed gun in Japan, because no matter how you got it, it's still a gun. Sumireko is an outlaw. Practically speaking, 3D printers are really expensive so it's not really plausible for a high schooler to own one, but it's just a small part of the way ZUN is commenting on topical issues via Sumireko.

Edit: The way a 3D printer works is that you'd just download the design off the internet and print each individual part out of plastic. Then you'd have to assemble it yourself. Because it's made of plastic it's far less durable than a metal gun, and would probably break after a couple of shots. Of course you could then print replacement parts from the same design.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on June 11, 2017, 07:29:20 am
The way I hear it, most 3D-printed guns can't be used more than a couple times anyways. Which actually works kind of well with it being a "spellcard".
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: shockdude on June 11, 2017, 05:50:15 pm
Sumireko's 3D printed gun is clearly based on the Liberator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberator_(gun)), which was designed and test-fired (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_wfF9pZZlo) in 2013.
It is indeed just as dangerous as a "real" gun (and possibly more so as it tended to break down or explode after a few shots).
Sumireko having access to a 3D printer is very plausible. Having access to a 3D printer high-end enough to keep the gun from exploding immediately is much less likely. However, the real implausible bit is Sumireko having access to ammunition in Japan in the first place (I think).
Imo she probably cheats and uses her ESP instead.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/DDLiberator2.3.jpg)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on June 11, 2017, 07:54:47 pm
So something I've been wondering since Aya's new book came out is Kagerou. Her being a werewolf you could assume she's in the same boat as Keine only transforming on a full moon. But the picture used in Alternative facts shows her with her ears like in DDC.

(https://en.touhouwiki.net/images/thumb/1/19/Alternative_Facts_in_Eastern_Utopia_Kagerou_Article.jpg/1280px-Alternative_Facts_in_Eastern_Utopia_Kagerou_Article.jpg)

It might just be coincidence that it's a full moon during the picture but with so little info it's hard to tell... I mean where does she even live?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: The Dratini Farmer on June 11, 2017, 07:59:28 pm
3D guns aren't really something that I would feel comfortable around. I actually saw one blow up after someone just bought it, not the best thing to happen on a firing line. Guy was lucky that he was wearing safety glasses, but still got hurt pretty bad. It was partly his fault since I heard him telling someone that the lower was started to warp, but he still shot it anyway in the hope that it would get forced straight. From my understanding, the budget gun makers in the United States are pushing polymer AR-15 lowers as the next best thing. At this point, I'm waiting for the lawsuit to hit them after something happens (like someone forces a lot of 5.56 NATO through it and melts it). Even though the AR-15 is called a plastic gun, the parts that are subject to high pressures and heat are still metal. And it goes without saying that polymer and heat don't mix. A properly designed and built metal/polymer gun is only a danger to what the muzzle's pointed at, if there are no other problems like a clogged barrel or the wrong ammo. A fully plastic gun might end up taking the user with it when they pull the trigger because of something being warped on the inside.

I agree with shockdude, Sumireko probably uses her ESP instead of live ammo.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 12, 2017, 01:57:10 am
So something I've been wondering since Aya's new book came out is Kagerou. Her being a werewolf you could assume she's in the same boat as Keine only transforming on a full moon. But the picture used in Alternative facts shows her with her ears like in DDC.
Well for one it is just guest art, so take it with a grain of salt to begin with. But as far as I recall she isn't implied to have a "human" form, just that she can transform into a wolf and she gets hairier, left to audience imagination. Also, if she hasn't been shown any other way, how do you expect a guest to draw them? Are they supposed to try to take the initiative to establish that design? I know I wouldn't dare.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on June 12, 2017, 04:54:00 am
Well for one it is just guest art, so take it with a grain of salt to begin with. But as far as I recall she isn't implied to have a "human" form, just that she can transform into a wolf and she gets hairier, left to audience imagination. Also, if she hasn't been shown any other way, how do you expect a guest to draw them? Are they supposed to try to take the initiative to establish that design? I know I wouldn't dare.

Ah good point! But hasn't it happened before though? But I'm guessing the designs of the fighting games and kosuzu are directed by ZUN then... I'm also not trying to impose anything, sorry if it seemed I was forcing something. I was just curious is all, sorry T^T
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 12, 2017, 05:03:26 am
No, that's about right; it's expected that any new character is going to have a design done by ZUN first and then adapted by the artist, and the fighting games and the manga are going to be supervised a lot more than guest illustrations. I'm not ragging on you or anything, just saying that a guest illustrator probably isn't going take any huge creative liberties like that in the first place.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on June 12, 2017, 05:10:34 am
It would be a bit odd that the first time would be in that. If we see her in a human form it would be in like a main series like game or book I guess, oh well back to waiting~ 🙄
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on June 12, 2017, 07:40:25 am
If anything her arms aren't hairy like her design in DDC, so we could say that she has "stages" of transformation?  Or perhaps she can just conceal her ears at will when it isn't a full moon.  Since the article is about Youkais playing a game amongst each other, it's only natural she'd take her "youkai form" (provided she could switch to and fro as I said) for an interview.   
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on June 12, 2017, 10:20:38 pm
You could speculate that the difference between her and Keine is that while Keine's therianthropy is acquired (which Akyuu explicitly states), Kagerou was born a therianthrope (which could be backed by Akyuu mentioning that numerous hereditary therianthropes can completely assume an animal form (like Kagerou does in her spell cards), while acquired ones often retain their human shape when transforming) and thus she either can better control her transformation or always has some animal characteristcs on display.

Not that worth noting since it's very minor, but the little cameo that she had on the WaHH manga shows her with her ears while the moon is not full:
(https://s21.postimg.org/lfn2q17af/Sem_t_tulo.png)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Colticide on June 12, 2017, 10:36:02 pm
Hmm I never noticed she showed up there. Do you think thats why shes nervous about humans? That she always has some traits despite almost being human herself that she doesn't want to be judged by them? I'd love to know more about Kagerou someday!~
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on June 16, 2017, 11:45:40 pm
Actually i always wondering, on mangas, that little/minor stuff like cameo that might not affect the story much, were they added by the mangaka on a whim where the mangaka think it might seem appropriate? or ZUN directed/supervised every little detail? or mangaka ask ZUN approval and ZUN "ok"-ing them?

Like, Cirno's fairy friend who looks like Daiyousei, there's also Lily White/Black Selena.
I'm also troubled about the stove which also looks rather modern in Sunny's gang house (if i remember right, i did saw that thing there).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 17, 2017, 01:32:05 am
As a general rule, inclusions of characters are ZUN's doing while miscellaneous artistic details and interpretations are the artist's. ZUN is known to want a great deal of control over some very particular details, as if he were the one drawing it in the first place. Things like character expression, interactions, having atmosphere and designs that match the time of year, are among things important to him. In any case, people in the manga industry seem to think he's overly detailed in his scripts, which can stifle artist creativity. Meanwhile many other things just don't matter to him and the artists can do what they want, and personally I feel like these are generally going to be the aspects that are unimportant to understanding the story, characters, and setting. Especially guest art in artbooks etc he seems to have no particular care about which is probably why the art can be all over the place.

Cameos are perhaps unexpectedly important, as they tend to imply character interaction. Putting characters in generic extra situations like festival stalls also suggests which characters would do those things and what they might sell. Daiyousei is likely supposed to be Daiyousei, but Lily White is "Lily Black" and so her double appearance in SSiB is likely an error. My theory is that the direction here was ZUN telling Eda that the page should be something like "have every character in the room chatting in ways that make sense" but because the Black outfit was turned around he didn't see it under supervision. The supervision of SSiB's art is already pretty questionable.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on June 17, 2017, 02:04:20 am
I'm also troubled about the stove which also looks rather modern in Sunny's gang house (if i remember right, i did saw that thing there).

That, and Alice having an obviously modern carton of milk (which even has a barcode on it) to make tea with, as well as Reimu and Marisa imagining a modern electronic megaphone and ICBM at the radio tower chapter (as discussed in my "Gensokyo's technological cultures?" topic), makes me wonder if it was Hirasaka Makoto's personal headcanon of Gensokyo being an underdeveloped countryside instead of the semi-medieval society it canonically is. (The former ain't my headcanon, BTW)

but Lily White is "Lily Black" and so her double appearance in SSiB is likely an error. My theory is that the direction here was ZUN telling Eda that the page should be something like "have every character in the room chatting in ways that make sense" but because the Black outfit was turned around he didn't see it under supervision. The supervision of SSiB's art is already pretty questionable.

Don't forget that Aki Eda's other mistakes include Chen being adult-sized (she's a canon loli), Toyohime's Weapon of Mass Purification being a fan (ZUN wanted it to look like an actual gun), and the Lunar Capital having a medieval Japanese appearance (ZUN wanted it to be a futuristic sci-fi-esque city, though I might be wrong on this one).
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 17, 2017, 02:30:01 am
Reimu and Marisa imagining a modern electronic megaphone and ICBM at the radio tower chapter
You aren't remembering those details correctly. They imagine the tower as a nondescript rocket kind of weapon, but literally just the tower flying like a rocket; the "modern megaphone" was also not modern at all but basically just a cone you speak through like the plastic ones you'd find at a dollar store.

Don't forget that Aki Eda's other mistakes include Chen being adult-sized (she's a canon loli), Toyohime's Weapon of Mass Purification being a fan (ZUN wanted it to look like an actual gun), and the Lunar Capital having a medieval Japanese appearance (ZUN wanted it to be a futuristic sci-fi-esque city, though I might be wrong on this one).
Chen being adult-sized isn't all that important, and the fan thing has no evidence. The Lunar Capital is supposed to be Chinese in design and have an aged aesthetic, but in utility everything is advanced. This is detailed more in CiLR; it follows a motif of wabi-sabi, where the Lunarians having such advanced technology means they can afford to have that aesthetic by choice.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on June 17, 2017, 02:26:19 pm
Does Marisa have bad relationship with her family, at least her father?  I remember reading about that...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on June 17, 2017, 06:47:59 pm
Toyohime's Weapon of Mass Purification being a fan (ZUN wanted it to look like an actual gun),
You sure? I remember he only said the description of the weapon was vague, but nothing regarding a gun.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: martelefort on June 17, 2017, 06:52:05 pm
Does Marisa have bad relationship with her family, at least her father?  I remember reading about that...

We don't know for sure. Akyuu theorized that Marisa ran away from home because they didn't deal with magical items. Also, when she and Rinnosuke talked about her home, she said " i'm not coming back to that place " or something like that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on June 17, 2017, 09:46:32 pm
We don't know for sure. Akyuu theorized that Marisa ran away from home because they didn't deal with magical items. Also, when she and Rinnosuke talked about her home, she said " i'm not coming back to that place " or something like that.
You know, she saying that in suggestive tone, like, "this gonna be my house, i'm not going back to my parents", well done gal *wink*wink*wink*.
But they aren't even living together?
Because they aren't married yet, fools

just kidding, sorry i can't hold myself i just eat so i don't think much

Serious now, talking about Rinnosukokek, i think i never read about this anywhere but i'm assuming Keinen stopped aging physically normally after since she acquired bull-ification therianthropy, is she? execuses avoiding junking off-topic so mods don't lash at me
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 17, 2017, 11:08:15 pm
The way she talks about her father in CoLA pretty obviously suggests there are issues there.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on June 24, 2017, 05:33:24 pm
Why does Sagume has only 1 wing? Iirc, she's based on Ame-no-Sagume but I can't find much information about her. Can someone enlighten me?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: andykhang on June 25, 2017, 06:20:01 am
In which it's said that she's capable of "firing bullet from another dimension". Do you guy think it's literally a bullet dimension, made out of the remnant of fired danmaku, or it's just her shooting bullet with extra dimension step, which, after firing, she open a portal? If so, could she be invincible in it if we follow her there or not? So many question...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on June 25, 2017, 08:41:23 am
In Wiki I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be from official profiles, i also think it's kinda not easy to grasp, probably inaccurate translation? i'm sorry if my suspicion are wrong.
or probably just the rabbit official profiles that are inaccurate or lazily ambiguous.... (i'm not blaming ZUNsan-kun, don't beat me)

But "dimension" might be not really smoething like different realm or parallel world, but if it's really that, it's sure is flashy and sounds cool as f*** for freakin mere stage 1.
Or maybe it's related to her 3 sizes BWH "sekseh body dimension" woot! no i mean width height length of the bullets. <- main reason making this post
or by the comment of her spell card, it's dimension as in angle?

6th game stage 1 boss also has power of darkness which sound attractive for chuuni-kin (lol)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: andykhang on June 25, 2017, 10:31:01 am
Nah, even japanese fanwork adopt the "another dimension" angle in a form of portal, so the translation's probably right.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 25, 2017, 10:38:20 am
I mean you literally see the portals open in-game...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on June 25, 2017, 11:28:17 am
I always thought that "dimensions" in this case was taken a bit more literally, as in ZUN tried making her distinct triangle-clusters-aimed-at-you seem kinda 3D. 
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on June 25, 2017, 02:18:02 pm
This question also should have gone in the Miscellaneous Questions thread.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: MANoBadAssGar Jr. on June 25, 2017, 02:39:34 pm
Yeah i meant to say that in my original post but somehow forgot.
But bodey dimension manipulation would hot, portal just boring sounds like extra boss mundane ability.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Raikaria on June 25, 2017, 11:30:31 pm
Why does Sagume has only 1 wing? Iirc, she's based on Ame-no-Sagume but I can't find much information about her. Can someone enlighten me?

It may be because Ame-no-Sagume is merely a vassal-god; to reflect standing.

The other reason could be perhaps to do with the story; where Ame-no-Sagume urges Ame-wa-kahiko [Superior] to shoot a pheasant [That itself was a messenger sent by gods to test Kahiko; Nakime]. Perhaps the one wing reflects that the arrow hit the pheasant and perhaps damaged a wing in doing so?

That's about the best I can find.

Also the arrow continued to heaven; was caught; and thrown back; killing Kahiko. Due to Sagume's words and urgeing. Probably why Sagume has her ability and personality of being careful with her words.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on June 26, 2017, 01:35:32 am
ZUN has said she's part Heavenly god and Earthly god to reflect that in some stories Ame-no-sagume is portrayed as one or the other. He says the one wing represents the Heavenly god side of her. The wing is also part of her white heron (サギ) imagery, but I don't particularly know if there's more behind choosing the heron besides for the similarity of "Sagume" and "sagi", and the homonym sagi (詐欺, meaning scam) giving her another tie to the amanojaku folklore.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on June 28, 2017, 08:25:58 pm
This question also should have gone in the Miscellaneous Questions thread.
Agreed, merging the thread into Q&A.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on July 02, 2017, 10:30:35 am
In the fan game  Magus in Mystic Geometries, ZUN made themes for Shinki and Rinnosuke, An Ordeal From God and Curious Old Shanghai Tile.  Should they be considered official themes for them, since ZUN made them?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on July 02, 2017, 02:58:21 pm
Depends what you really mean by "official theme". Could you call both of those "official" character motifs? Sure, just as how some characters have many different musical motifs with different expression. Could you call them "the theme that would play if they were in a battle in a danmaku game"? By the contexts of the games they come from I'm not sure that would be totally appropriate. If ZUN brought these characters to something new, they would probably be given completely different themes.

And to get even more delicate, even as character motifs, maybe you want to consider what it even means to be "official" or "unofficial". Kind of the point is that the music itself evokes some sort of representation of the character, but it's hard to say how much effort ZUN put into portraying the character with the music rather than simply making "some music" for the game that just happened to be connected to a specific character.

(Also Curious Old Shanghai Tile is from Touhou Unreal Mahjong; obviously why "Tile" is in the title. Both games were made by D.N.A and were similar situations though so whatever)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Rei Scarlette on July 08, 2017, 05:07:50 am
Hi, I figured this was not important enough for its own topic and that it might best belong here in the Misc. Questions topic.

I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me identify the name of this song. I recognize it to be an arrangement of Flandre's theme, but the file has no helpful details attached. I got myself a stack of old PC games for $5, but it seems one of the CDs just had a bunch of videogame music on it. If the song in question is being sold anywhere I'd like to support the creators, but if it's freely available I guess all is well.

I assume uploading the entire track could be rather questionable, so on the side of caution I decided to go for just two 30 second clips that I thought might be most identifiable. https://my.mixtape.moe/smvlyp.mp3 (https://my.mixtape.moe/smvlyp.mp3) (I assume this should be acceptable, but if not I or a mod could remove the link?)

Thanks for your time. It'd be great to know the name of the song and who made this.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on July 08, 2017, 06:39:01 am
緋色月下、狂咲ノ絶 by EastNewSound.

They actually have a Booth, with digital downloads, so you can support them directly and without import fees.
https://eastnewsound.booth.pm/
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Rei Scarlette on July 08, 2017, 06:45:18 am
Oh, nice! That's great, even better than I was hoping for. Thanks a bunch for the quick response.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on July 10, 2017, 10:50:18 pm
If an object were to be worshipped, would it become a tsukumogami? If not, what would happen?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on July 10, 2017, 11:42:16 pm
It wouldn't become a tsukumogami, no.  Tsukumogami are the result of angering an object's animus, not worshipping it.  I'd think in this case, it'd be creating a god, much like Reimu did with the lightning tree that one time.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on July 12, 2017, 04:41:21 am
I have 3 questions.

1. Humans and Youkai don't need to be antagonistic 24/7, but the latter just need to cause incident/trouble once in a while to reinstate fear into humans to ensure their survival, correct?

2. I believe not all Youkai follows this rule, yes? Ex. Wakasagihime, Tewi, and Nemuno, from what I've read, aren't the type to go out and cause problems, so how can they survive? Gensokyo Chronicle?

3. I don't think it is stated anywhere how one can born a half-youkai hybrid, yes? I will assume that they are born normally like humans. Take Rinnosuke for example. That means one of his parents was a Youkai or a hybrid, so I assume that having a relationship with a Youkai isn't illegal?

Or a half-youkai hybrid is born because of something else?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TrueShadow on July 12, 2017, 06:26:09 am
3. Well, if we go by Japanese folklores, then there are youkai who can give birth to humans. Like Kitsune, Tanuki, Yuki-onna, and Rokurokubi. I don't think relationship with youkai is considered acceptable, though, and the aforementioned youkai are the likes who can pass off as humans.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on July 12, 2017, 08:46:48 am
Tewi and Wakasagi are outright non-antagonistic or even helpful to humans, same as the Zashiki-warashi, so there are obviously youkai that only feed on belief rather than fear. Nemuno might gather fear as "scary woman that slices you open with a cleaver if you enter her territory" even if she doesn't actually do it (she threatens to do it).

I've been wondering if mountain hags are actually 100% youkai-born rather than some type of magician like Alice, or maybe a kind of more sinister hermit?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on July 12, 2017, 03:47:21 pm
3. I don't think it is stated anywhere how one can born a half-youkai hybrid, yes? I will assume that they are born normally like humans. Take Rinnosuke for example. That means one of his parents was a Youkai or a hybrid, so I assume that having a relationship with a Youkai isn't illegal?

Or a half-youkai hybrid is born because of something else?
I assume Rinnosuke had human and youkai parents, but the Konpaku family were probably normal humans who got stuck between life and death somehow.

If you consider Keine a half-youkai (as opposed to fully human some of the time, fully youkai some of the time) then she wasn't born that way.

There's also cases of things partially transforming into youkai, but this state is usually unstable and they settle on one side or the other before long.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on July 18, 2017, 10:21:55 am
Can Yukari revive the dead using her gap powers, or did I just read a story written by a Yukari fanboy who believes her waifu is an omnipotent Mary Sue who can do literally and absolutely anything because of her ability?

Don't ask me what fan fic that is.  Please just tell me if she can revive the dead using her gap/boundary abilities.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on July 18, 2017, 10:58:40 am
This sounds more like "follow what we are told" than "Yukari fanboy writing about their waifu" (which honestly makes you sound like you are bitter about it regardless of it being canon or not).
You can't blame people for writing stuff like that when the canonical description of her powers is almost literally "can do whatever she fucking want" in more than one occasion.

That said, she never did it so i'd say it's impossible to tell. Like most stuff regarding the characters' abilities.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Mеа on July 18, 2017, 02:41:30 pm
Was there a name for the type of flower pattern stamp-like patterns ZUN uses on a lot of his touhou title and menu screens? I feel like I read somewhere about him using an opensource one for DDC or something.

Or if there isn't, is there a name for that kind of flat stamp-like insignia-like pattern style?

e: oh, and I'm hoping to be given the japanese (or chinese) name for this style. I'm struck by the very orientalness of the thing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Electroll on July 19, 2017, 12:10:32 pm
Why would the ultramarine orb kill gods like Suwako that highly depend on faith to survive? Doesn't ultramarine orb help to make the user purer? If that so, won't that make wako purer which is beneficial for her?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Suspicious person on July 19, 2017, 08:58:35 pm
Why would the ultramarine orb kill gods like Suwako that highly depend on faith to survive? Doesn't ultramarine orb help to make the user purer? If that so, won't that make wako purer which is beneficial for her?
In Touhou, gods can basically be literally anything + faith : purity is irrelevant, as far as godhood go ; and regarding the ultramarine orb, the way it works is essentially by making its user completely pure (not purer) : to reword it differently, it completely wipes away impurity.

Now then, regarding Suwako : she is a native god, made of 100 % faith : while I don't recall if some official material mention that whatever compose her being can be considered as impure, the fact of the matter is simple : taking the ultramarine orb can supposedly instagib her : it should be valid to deduct that whatever composes Suwako somehow fall in line with the impurity that the ultramarine orb wipe away... and considering that that's pretty much her whole being (100 % !), the ultramarine orb might do her way more harm than good.

Also, regarding the "purification" part, the ultramarine orb's purification should not be confused with the refinement part of Junko's purification ability.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on July 19, 2017, 09:44:02 pm
I imagine that a being that's made by the faith and desires of impure humans would be filled with kegare by nature, so it stands to reason for her to be particularly weak to things that destroy impurity.

Also I bet her relationship with the Mishaguji doesn't do her any favors in this regard.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Goomba98 on July 24, 2017, 11:58:30 pm
If RedRive is free to download, how come I've found absolutely zero information on that game when the other two Project Blank games aren't free, and yet they still have wiki pages?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on July 25, 2017, 03:17:00 am
It isn't one of their larger projects, it's a small Arena STG focused around a neat little gimmick. Nobody's bothered to write anything on the english wiki because not many people even play the game, even though it's free (http://www.rebrank.org/download.htm). It's completely different in scale from RefRain and samidare.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on July 25, 2017, 07:46:26 am
This is a dumb question, but is the volcano in Mokou's "Undying South Wind, Clear Sky Soaring Kick" actually real or is it just danmaku?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on July 25, 2017, 01:21:29 pm
This is a dumb question, but is the volcano in Mokou's "Undying South Wind, Clear Sky Soaring Kick" actually real or is it just danmaku?

Definitely just danmaku. Otherwise making it non-lethal will be fully impossible, not to mention the collateral damage.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on July 25, 2017, 03:43:20 pm
Definitely just danmaku. Otherwise making it non-lethal will be fully impossible, not to mention the collateral damage.
The games are plenty of attacks that should be lethal but aren't for some magical reason, tho. As for collateral damage, the "volcano" seems to be just a big fire column, and most collateral damage would come from her destroying the ground be kicking the opponent into it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on July 28, 2017, 10:49:16 am
I was asking this question because some guy on another web site used that to argue that Mokou could make a volcano. I highly doubt it because i'm 99% sure that who ever she was fighting would die there.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on July 28, 2017, 12:51:20 pm
Not saying she can obviously do it, but even if she could, how would it be different than Utsuho's nuclear fusion "danmaku" that are explicitly said to be super hot?

This also reminds me about Marisa's Horoscope in AFiEU where she says some attacks (like Yuugi punching you) would "normally kill you but it's danmaku so you don't die".
I doubt those were meant to be serious, but still.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on July 29, 2017, 08:01:19 am
Something has been bugging me for a while now...

Why do some people refer to Kosuzu as "Motoori"?

In so far, we have referred to each and every 2hu by their first names. I.E,:
Hakurei Reimu - Reimu
Kirisame Marisa - Marisa
Yakumo Yukari - Yukari
Yagokoro Eirin - Eirin
Fujiwara No Mokou - Mokou
Alice Margatroid - Alice
Mystia Lorelei - Mystia
Hong Meiling - Meiling
etc...
Yet, Motoori Kosuzu is the only exception, as some people still refer to her as "Motoori", her last name...

Why is this the case?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on July 29, 2017, 09:22:17 am
Shinmyoumaru gets called Sukuna much more often.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: GenericArrangements on July 29, 2017, 09:40:17 am
Shinmyoumaru gets called Sukuna much more often.
Doesn't make it right.

Although with Shinmyoumaru I guess some people physically can't/can't be bothered to pronounce her name correctly. Calling Kosuzu "Motoori" doesn't make as much sense.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on July 29, 2017, 11:13:23 am
Almost everybody calls UFO's 4th stage boss 'Murasa', too.  I think it comes from the fact that one name is shorter than the other (Much like Shinmyoumaru), thus people refer to the easier-to-spell name to avoid blunders. 

Frankly tho I never saw anyone calling Kosuzu by her last name.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shadowlupus on July 29, 2017, 11:20:40 am
I guess everyone will call whatever name that is shorter in case of Murasa or Sukuna.

For Kosuzu, I guess calling her Motoori is funnier? I mean, has anyone here called her properly in all syllables as "Moh-Toh-Oh-Ri" or just say "Muturi," which is kinda hilarious.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TrueShadow on July 29, 2017, 11:34:17 am
Almost everybody calls UFO's 4th stage boss 'Murasa', too.  I think it comes from the fact that one name is shorter than the other (Much like Shinmyoumaru), thus people refer to the easier-to-spell name to avoid blunders. 

Frankly tho I never saw anyone calling Kosuzu by her last name.
Murasa also has her boss theme "Captain Murasa", so that name stuck more to fans' minds.

I also never see anyone call Kosuzu by her last name.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on July 29, 2017, 03:43:03 pm
Murasa is on purpose because she's addressed in universe that way already.

Sukuna instead of Shinmyoumaru is only because people figure that the "longer" name is the family name and don't check. Yoshika is also often called Miyako because people think Miyako sounds more like a given name, I guess. Calling Kosuzu "Motoori" is just silly and similarly sounds like they just have no idea.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on July 31, 2017, 04:48:59 am
Hey Summers, I know we've asked you before to put these one-off random questions in the Misc Questions thread. Really appreciate it if you could start doing that.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on July 31, 2017, 09:34:03 am
And with that said, this thread will be merged with the Misc thread.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on July 31, 2017, 01:38:59 pm
Hey Summers, I know we've asked you before to put these one-off random questions in the Misc Questions thread. Really appreciate it if you could start doing that.

Thanks for the reminder. I will.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lishy1 on July 31, 2017, 04:08:48 pm
What martial arts style does Hong Meiling do? It's hard to tell from her little sprite. Wondering if there is any official lore bits confirming.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on July 31, 2017, 05:15:39 pm
Tai Chi Chuan, canonically.

However her sprites don't actually resemble anything like a real martial art, and is just looks like random cool martial art moves, i've been told.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Raikaria on August 02, 2017, 04:33:10 pm
This is more thinking of something from a side-on perspective.

Mokou. It's unlikely that she had her Fire-powers before drinking the Hourai Elixir [She was stated to be an 'ordinary human'].

In addition; PMSS states Mokou is actually skilled in all sorts of sorcery; due to her long life; which suggests that Mokou's Fire-abilities were learnt not inherent. She just has a preference for fire. [Indeed; in IN; many of her spellcards have nothing to do with fire.]

Here's where the more lateral thinking comes in.

When Mokou's spells are broken; she dies. She of course; immediately respawns, and -Ressurection- appears on the screen where a spellcard name would be. However this also happens if you time out Mokou's spells.

This makes me wonder. Is Mokou using 'Blood Magic'; as in; magic powered by her own life? IN seems to suggest this with her literally dying if you time her out. She used up so much magic that she dies [As overuse of 'blood magic']. It's a perfect strategy for an immortal like Mokou; after all. Especially with her being an 'ordinary human'. She might not have much natural magical energy to even use.

Also bear in mind her Grimore of Marisa sigil. It's a heart; aflame; with wings.

It just seems like an interesting take on Mokou's abilities; they're effectively 'cast from hitpoints'. I'd kinda like to hear what other people have to say about it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on August 02, 2017, 07:22:52 pm
It's kind of true, but not as direct as "cast from your life force" or anything like that. Since Mokou doesn't have to worry about dying, she just really over-exerts herself to the point that she dies. She just really goes all out. The most famous use of this is her setting herself on fire or blowing herself up, but she also tends to starve herself to death outside of battle.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: PK on August 02, 2017, 07:53:13 pm
During IN you actually blow her up tho, i doubt she'd die so easily on her own after each spellcard.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on August 02, 2017, 09:23:21 pm
Based from what happens on ULiL and taking that in a more realistic consideration, it wouldn't be far fetched to say that she's using her own life forced (HP) to cast/power up her spells. 

By that same logic, her ressurection would be like that Pillar of fire Move she does, she basically burns herself away and then ressurects with newfound vigor.  I guess that she basically refreshes her body (to a point, since even ingame she mentions that after a while she can't take it anymore) and keeps fighting.

It's also interesting to notice that before her final spellcard she ressurects 3 times.  Maybe she starts having trouble ressurecting properly after a while? 
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Kuriz on August 02, 2017, 09:27:30 pm
I got a question regarding PC-98 Reimu and Marisa's footwear. Dead meme incoming! WHAT ARE THOOOOOOOOSE!?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Raikaria on August 02, 2017, 09:54:05 pm
I got a question regarding PC-98 Reimu and Marisa's footwear. Dead meme incoming! WHAT ARE THOOOOOOOOSE!?

PC-98 Reimu appears to be barefoot in some portrayals [Touhou 4]; or wearing small; white boots in others [TH05 cover]. Sometimes it's just unclear.

PC-98 Marisa appears to be wearing white boots with a frilly top in Touhou 4. Everything else is too unclear or not shown.

During IN you actually blow her up tho, i doubt she'd die so easily on her own after each spellcard.

https://youtu.be/5buwO6erR5o?t=1m57s

You can clearly see; even timed out; Mokou dies at the end of her spellcard.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Prime32 on August 02, 2017, 11:27:08 pm
It's kind of true, but not as direct as "cast from your life force" or anything like that. Since Mokou doesn't have to worry about dying, she just really over-exerts herself to the point that she dies. She just really goes all out. The most famous use of this is her setting herself on fire or blowing herself up, but she also tends to starve herself to death outside of battle.
This. There's a lot of factors (including pain and unwillingness to hurt others) that prevent people from using their full strength in most situations, and Mokou shows a lot of signs of overcoming them - in WaHH she even does the "karate chop through a brick" thing without a moment of preparation. Though I'd say it's reasonable to assume that she can do the spiritual equivalent as well.

I like the Gensou Shoujo Taisen animation where she punches so hard that her hand disintegrates. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzthwNzA5GQ)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sagus on August 03, 2017, 02:09:23 am
I'm fairly sure her deaths in IN are actually of her own doing and not the protagonists. In ULiL, she has to use her "set fire on herself" attack to heal the damage that using her other abilities causes her (which I think is a mechanic that represents her reckless abandon in using her abilities more than a "using lifeforce to fuel spells" thing, to be honest; it just seems to fit the character more imo). Thus, I think it stands to reason that she was doing the exact same thing back in IN. Her attacks, for one reason or another, hurt her own body, even when it's just danmaku, so from time to time (between spellcards, for example) she just blows herself up so that she can continue fighting with an undamaged body. The fact that she starts having trouble doing this near the end of her boss fight could mean it's a painful/tiring thing to do.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on August 03, 2017, 02:38:12 am
I don't totally remember but I want to say that, while she can manipulate fire, she's not actually immune to it. I don't remember where I read that though so I might be pulling it out of nowhere. I'm totally certain that she still feels immense pain, so it makes sense that she'd get sick of fighting eventually. That I remember was in one of the IN extra ending dialogues.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TrueShadow on August 03, 2017, 05:29:37 am
Speaking of which, when did Mokou get so associated with fire? It feels weird when I see IN Extra and see only 1/4 of her spellcards are fire-based.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on August 03, 2017, 05:36:15 am
25% of fire is a lot of fire.

Who else does 25% fire?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 03, 2017, 06:56:56 am
It's probably meant as a reference to Mount Fuji, which has where Kaguya left the Elixir.

Also she fucking wears red clothing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on August 03, 2017, 11:56:48 am
She has a literal phoenix aura during each spellcard, for crying out loud!
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on August 03, 2017, 02:37:58 pm
Also all the fire puns she won't stop making.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phasm on August 03, 2017, 02:54:27 pm
Makes me wonder if Kaguya could use her ability to reverse the Hourai Elixer's effects... after all she does control Etarnity and the Instantaneous...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on August 03, 2017, 03:18:48 pm
Makes me wonder if Kaguya could use her ability to reverse the Hourai Elixer's effects... after all she does control Etarnity and the Instantaneous...

I don't think she can reverse what has already happened.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lebon14 on August 03, 2017, 10:37:03 pm
I don't think she can reverse what has already happened.

Debatable.
I believe that she could reverse it by making it "instantaneous" which is pretty much the opposite of eternity.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: dark36 on August 03, 2017, 11:15:52 pm
from what i understand her power is more like controlling the flow of time she can make it pass extremely fast or slow it to a halt. but there is no source of her being able to reverse the flow so it probably isn't possible for her to revert something to a previous state.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Leon゠Helsing on August 04, 2017, 12:09:22 am
Don't quote me on this, but I think rather than just simply making her eternal, the elixir works by making her existence outright unerasable, therefore making her "always be" no matter what.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on August 04, 2017, 08:57:46 am
Plus let's face it, if she knew how to revert the Elixir's effects it's super likely that she'd've killed Mokou for good a long time ago.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 04, 2017, 09:54:22 am
Neither of them actually want each other to die anyways, though.

Not that this would be an argument for Kaguya being able to reverse the Elixir's effects, for which there's no reason to believe it even could be reversed.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Shizzo on August 04, 2017, 06:55:02 pm
Neither of them actually want each other to die anyways, though.


Huh, is that so?  It's honestly been a while since I read on the two (and admittedly I hear of so much fanart of them being happy friends or even downright lovers that my memory can't remember what's canon and what's not)

I was actually always curious about the true nature of their relationship.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Sophilia on August 04, 2017, 07:54:21 pm
In truth, we know a lot more about Mokou's side of the relationship than we do Kaguya's, since Mokou's chapter of CiLR (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Fourth_Chapter) sets out her entire mentality.  Kaguya's own CiLR chapter doesn't address Mokou, so the best idea we have of her side is the comedy vignettes in Inaba.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on August 04, 2017, 08:12:30 pm
The two are rivals. The feud is originally fueled by Mokou's hate, but Kaguya does like to humor it. Inabas manga aside, there's the whole premise of IN Extra stage.

It's not like it's a blind "spill each others' guts on sight" thing, though. They can cooperate when they need to. They just enjoy the idea that they have someone who will definitely stay around for as long as they will to have fun with, for a varying definition of fun.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 04, 2017, 09:32:35 pm
Remember that ZUN has NEVER wrote any interactions between Mokou and Kaguya. Inaba and Inaba is the closest we have to Canon, and it wasn't even written by ZUN.

Just another reason why Touhou lives on fandom.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: martelefort on August 04, 2017, 10:28:56 pm
Remember that ZUN has NEVER wrote any interactions between Mokou and Kaguya. Inaba and Inaba is the closest we have to Canon, and it wasn't even written by ZUN.

Just another reason why Touhou lives on fandom.

IN Extra stage is pretty much an interaction, as well as Mokou's interview in BAiJR, without mentionning Mokou's profile in IN.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 04, 2017, 11:29:06 pm
IN Extra stage is pretty much an interaction, as well as Mokou's interview in BAiJR, without mentionning Mokou's profile in IN.
The IN Extra Stage is just Mokou talking about how she hates Kaguya to people sent to beat her up. That doesn't count as what i was talking about.

Same for the interview in BaiJR, she just complains about Kaguya to Aya, she never speaks a word to the former and Kaguya never talks about Mokou in her interview (In fact i don't think she never talked about Mokou at all outside of Inaba and Inaba). And i don't get how her profile counts as an interaction at all.

When i talk about the lack of interactions between Kaguya and Mokou, i mean direct interactions. Like actually talking to each other face to face, or fighting each other directly instead of sending assassins to kill the other. In that regard we have never had that happen in anything directly canonical.

In other words, Kaguya and Mokou's relationship is mostly made up by the fandom.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 04, 2017, 11:42:52 pm
To be clear, to not have much content from the perspective of Kaguya is somewhat to be expected. Kaguya isn't particularly the one with regrets towards immortality considering she didn't come from a human perspective; Kaguya only barely had an active role in Mokou's character arc, much of which being coincidence, and has no reason to hate Mokou at all; plus the center of her character is about going from the Lunar society to embracing life on Earth and not particularly about her impossible requests and what followed.


I think it's perfectly fine to use their indirect interactions and even the lack of animosity to extrapolate on what their relationship is actually like, and for the most part it makes sense. Heck, I think it's even possible that ZUN wrote in the "friendship" between Mokou and Sumireko as a means to steer the perception of Mokou away from a one-dimensional obsession over Kaguya, which was already pretty flimsy.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 05, 2017, 03:18:05 am
I think it's perfectly fine to use their indirect interactions and even the lack of animosity to extrapolate on what their relationship is actually like, and for the most part it makes sense.
Even if Kaguya doesn't hate Mokou as much as she does, that doesn't mean they aren't able to directly interact in any fun or interesting way, and honestly, that way of just telling what their relationship is like instead of just showing it, to the point of them not even ever talking to each other, is a bad choice by ZUN, and it really just makes both characters feel more one-dimensional and boring as a result (Especially for Kaguya, considering she even never talks about Mokou at all!), regardless of what their relationship is like.

I'm normally fine with ZUN making things vague, but doing something like Kaguya and Mokou's relationship this way, and never having them ever directly talk in canon, frankly just feels lazy. I don't think it should have been the the fanbase's job to flesh out something that could've very easily been shown in canon.

No offensive meant with this post, that's just how i feel about it.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on August 05, 2017, 06:38:13 am
Somehow I feel as if ZUN doesn't really care what you think "his job" or "the fanbase's job" is.

It probably also doesn't help that generally characters only get the spotlight once or twice then disappear for years, so they don't really get the chance to "show rather than tell".
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: the old guy on August 05, 2017, 06:53:49 am
You would think that a character who's feud against a immortal who she constantly kills over and over again as one of her defining personality traits would be shown fighting said rival. But here we are.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: TresserT on August 05, 2017, 07:52:44 am
Not really. That's just the way touhou works- the only characters who regularly interact with other characters are the protags and the manga stars, of which Mokou is neither. Kaguya had a book written about her, but that was more about her life as a lunarian than her life as an earthling.

There are plenty of characters with strong relationships who we don't get to see interact just because they don't get the spotlight in general. Remilia/Flandre, Kanako/Suwako, Koishi/Satori, just to name a few. Kanako/Suwako are especially noticeable because, as you said about Mokou/Kaguya, one of Suwako's most noteable character traits is that she's subordinate to Kanako.

But that's just how touhou is and always has been. As I said, a character gets the spotlight once or twice then they don't show up anymore. Most people realize that early on. I might be disappointed that certain characters don't get more development, but I don't think it's lazy or bad on ZUN's part in any way.

tl;dr, Mokou isn't an important enough character that "showing rather than telling" is a priority.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Hello Purvis on August 05, 2017, 06:46:36 pm
ZUN's also said a whole buncha times he's usually more interested in making new characters than reusing old ones in the games and stuff, which kinda makes the whole show rather than tell thing difficult.

Which is cool and good and valid.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on August 05, 2017, 08:59:20 pm
There are plenty of characters with strong relationships who we don't get to see interact just because they don't get the spotlight in general. Remilia/Flandre, Kanako/Suwako, Koishi/Satori

We actually do get to see Koishi and Satori interact in Koishi's ULiL ending.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tengukami on August 05, 2017, 11:06:39 pm
I'm normally fine with ZUN making things vague, but doing something like Kaguya and Mokou's relationship this way, and never having them ever directly talk in canon, frankly just feels lazy. I don't think it should have been the the fanbase's job to flesh out something that could've very easily been shown in canon.

I am always really wary of people telling an artist what their "job" should or should not be with regard to their own work. And I am genuinely puzzled at the "lazy" characterization. The guy who has built an entire mythical world with a cast of hundreds ok maybe around a hundred persons, churns out a game more or less each year, and still writes text works on these characters is somehow guilty of laziness because ... he didn't flesh out a relationship between these two particular characters?

I mean does it even make sense for Mokou to be on Kaguya's radar? As Drake pointed out, most of the conflict between these two characters is on Mokou's end of things. Kaguya has all other fish to fry and in all likelihood was over Mokou's deal long ago.

I love Kaguya to pieces, honestly, and I'd love to see more of the interactions between her and Mokou. But the Touhou universe isn't resting on the weary, selfless shoulders of loyal fans who diligently do ZUN's job for him. He does plenty. We can accept What We Know about Gensokyo at face value, have fun making theories and speculations, or both.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phasm on August 05, 2017, 11:29:21 pm
On the topic of exploring Mokou's relationship with Kaguya, i think it was a wasted opportunity to have Reisen in ULIL and AOCF because she was already in SWR and it's expansion Hisoutensoku, they could have used this opportunity to give Kaguya or less directly Eirin heck maybe even Tewi, a chance at representing Eientei, because it is likely that Mokou's partner is going to be Reisen...
This would have given an opportunity to explore Mokou's relationship with the Eientei Faction. Its a rather missed opportunity...
I doubt that one of the 3 returning characters is anyone from IN...  ::)
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: CyberAngel on August 05, 2017, 11:48:04 pm
This would have given an opportunity to explore Mokou's relationship with the Eientei Faction. Its a rather missed opportunity...

And Reisen doesn't qualify for that... why exactly? She's the one that spends the most time contacting the world outside Eientei out of the three (Tewi is kind of on her own), so she makes the most sense. Variety for the sake of variety is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Phasm on August 06, 2017, 01:50:13 am
And Reisen doesn't qualify for that... why exactly? She's the one that spends the most time contacting the world outside Eientei out of the three (Tewi is kind of on her own), so she makes the most sense. Variety for the sake of variety is a bad idea.
Well, i should have worded it better actually, It is as you said, variety for the sake of variety i guess.
They could have had Eirin's logic or Tewi's mischeviusness contrasting with Mokou's more reckless personality but i can also understand that an excuse for her not to be in the game would be that Eirin is kinda like Patchouli in that if preferable she doesn't leave Eientei. I like Reisen and i i'd rather Reisen make an appearcence now than never showing up like Flandre or Ran.

( Alert inner fanboy approaching )

To be honest my gripe also lies in the fear that this might be the last game in the" Touhou Flight Simulator Fighters Engine " and that would mean no more Mokou and it would've been a unique opportunity to have a Mokou vs Kaguya in canon...
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on August 06, 2017, 03:55:22 am
To be honest my gripe also lies in the fear that this might be the last game in the" Touhou Flight Simulator Fighters Engine " and that would mean no more Mokou and it would've been a unique opportunity to have a Mokou vs Kaguya in canon...

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Unabara Iruka's made it pretty clear in interviews that this is the type of game he originally wanted to produce, whereas IaMP through Hisoutensoku were merely stepping stones. And they've already been making new games in this engine faster than they did for the old one. I think they might retire entirely before they abandon this new engine.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: game2011 on August 14, 2017, 03:19:02 am
Chen's nationality is Japanese or Chinese?  Some people believe it's the latter because of her name and clothing.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: andykhang on August 14, 2017, 04:02:43 am
She's a Nekomata, so probably Japanese in origin. Her master (Ran) seems to be Chinese though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 14, 2017, 04:25:05 am
They're both shikigami so the concept of "nationality" is pretty much irrelevant to begin with. One would also easily assume both Chen the bakeneko and Ran the bakegitsune are from Japan, but who knows.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on August 14, 2017, 07:00:19 am
I wouldn't read too much into either of their names anyway, since they were probably named by Yukari after they became shikigami.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: andykhang on August 14, 2017, 12:51:46 pm
Nah, Chen is more likely named by Ran, by the same way Ran is also named :Something meaningful for them. And the language they talk with is one of those first thing that would bring the most effect on them, if you name them right.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Lt Colonel Summers on August 14, 2017, 02:31:45 pm
Why do people think that Satano and Mai are sisters, despite their obviously different surnames and being outright stated to simply be co-workers?
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on August 14, 2017, 02:45:41 pm
Could have many reasons. Though nothing to fuss about as imo it is a harmless confusion people have because they appeared together. A possible scenario is most people don't pay attention to the text. ZUN always introduces the bosses with their title and names. And their names are also often displayed during the spell card.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Tiamat on August 14, 2017, 03:25:11 pm
Mokou's had plenty of exploration with the Eientei faction, IMHO, especially now that ULiL with Reisen's scenario has shown that Inaba's portrayal of it  was probably close enough.  Heck, Mokou's monologue in CiLR ended with her deciding that even if Kaguya returned to the moon someday, Mokou now had other friends on earth to be around with (instead of relying solely on Kaguya for a motivation to exist).

If Mokou ever does confront Kaguya on screen, BAiJR and Kaguya's lax attitude about it in the extra prologue versus Mokou's seriousnessness in the extra stage shows that it'd probably play out similarly to how it played out in Inaba anyways.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Clarste on August 14, 2017, 06:52:17 pm
I'm not sure Mai and Satono's surnames really mean anything in this context. When Okina offers Marisa the job, she asks if she wants to be Nishida who draws out vitality or Teireida who draws out spirit (maybe the other way around). This implied to me that becoming her servant changes your name, or rather that those are closer to job titles than actual names.

Still no evidence that they're sisters though.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Drake on August 15, 2017, 01:09:57 am
Nah, Chen is more likely named by Ran, by the same way Ran is also named :Something meaningful for them. And the language they talk with is one of those first thing that would bring the most effect on them, if you name them right.
Chen and Ran are both just named after colors; orange and indigo respectively. This is to fall in line with Yukari's scheme of ranking power with colors, scaling from red up to violet, which is Yukari herself.
Title: Re: Miscellaneous Questions 6: The Questionating
Post by: Helepolis on August 15, 2017, 05:44:01 pm
Hello everybody,

Miscellaneous Questions #6 is now locked to improve organisation for misc questions. We've created thread number 7 with a small but important notice for future misc questions.

New thread:  https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,20991.0.html

--Helepolis