The theory that Yukari is Maribel that at some point is stuck back in time and later change her name to Yukari doesn't work because of this:
Yukari's existance depends upon Maribel's eventual time travel to older Gensokyo, but Maribel's time travel to older Gensokyo can happen only if Yukari already existed and created the Barrier.
This is a Predestination paradox, and as such, IMPOSSIBLE.
A predestination paradox will be possible so far as we consider time travel to be real.
I look forward to what Tiamat has to say about thisThat was a very well done piece of analysis, and if it wasn't for the paradox problem i speak about below i too would say ZUN was aiming for that.
A predestination paradox will be possible so far as we consider time travel to be real.
My personal theory is that Maribel is a DESCENDANT of Yukari, caused by the latter "fooling around" in the Outside world in the past in a totally different way from the usual meaning :3I'll be a little greedy here and drag this into my own theory for a bit : remember what I said about the clan from which "Maribel 1" might've come from, somewhere in the walls of text up there ? Well, if we go from what I've said, then Maribel would still be born regardless of what happens, provided that her bloodline doesn't get wiped out : there would be no problem whatsoever, Maribel'll still be a descendant from a clan with some spiritual power : the cannon settings are still respected
I think this is way too much overthinking. Stable time loops are literally everywhere in media that deals with time travel, I don't see why it couldn't be the case here too.lol I guess that was too much
Like, Touhou is an universe where belief literally defines reality; applying real life theories about what's possible or not regarding time travel here doesn't make much sense.
I forgot an important detail.... this isn't a "normal" Predestination paradox, it's actually a Bootstrap paradox (a "subtype" of the predestination). The main difference is that it's not only that 2 events are each other's cause, but that something or someone are literally each other's cause of existence.
literally each other's cause of existence.This is a poor assumption to make though. Maribel's powers manifest from basically nothing. The only reason you seem to have for this is that the place that Maribel had traveled to must have been put up with the help of Yukari "later", but this is just a conventional timeloop deal, nothing special about it. You're only looking at it in one direction: a Yukari that helped create the Hakurei Barrier would have previously traveled from the future, being a Maribel whose powers developed naturally. There's a very obvious beginning.
When Maribel begin her dream travels the Great Hakurei Barrier must be already in place, else with her ability she wouldn't be able to visit it, because it would not be an actual supernatural place, just a normal isolated mountain.This is completely untrue. Gensokyo didn't just pop into existence when the Barrier was erected; youkai were already living there in spades, and is half the reason the Barrier was put there to begin with. The message dropped was found in the Bamboo Forest, which we know existed long before the Barrier, and was said to be "several hundred years ago", which is trivially placed before 1885 (even if you meant the boundary of illusion and reality, it can still be well within that period). Moreover the assertion that Maribel can only visit supernatural places is pretty much unfounded. The Torifune story is set in reality, and yet it's made completely ambiguous as to whether or not the Torifune satellite Maribel traveled to was illusionary or not; in fact it was made out to be completely real.
There are so many parallells between them, it's harder to explain how, in-universe, they CAN'T be the same person than the other way around. After all the numerous hints, it wouldn't make much sense (from a story-telling perspective) for them to be different people.
More importantly though,This is completely untrue. Gensokyo didn't just pop into existence when the Barrier was erected; youkai were already living there in spades, and is half the reason the Barrier was put there to begin with. The message dropped was found in the Bamboo Forest, which we know existed long before the Barrier, and was said to be "several hundred years ago", which is trivially placed before 1885 (even if you meant the boundary of illusion and reality, it can still be well within that period). Moreover the assertion that Maribel can only visit supernatural places is pretty much unfounded. The Torifune story is set in reality, and yet it's made completely ambiguous as to whether or not the Torifune satellite Maribel traveled to was illusionary or not; in fact it was made out to be completely real.
This is a poor assumption to make though. Maribel's powers manifest from basically nothing. The only reason you seem to have for this is that the place that Maribel had traveled to must have been put up with the help of Yukari "later", but this is just a conventional timeloop deal, nothing special about it. You're only looking at it in one direction: a Yukari that helped create the Hakurei Barrier would have previously traveled from the future, being a Maribel whose powers developed naturally. There's a very obvious beginning.
I already addressed the bootstrap paradox using it as an example for the stable time loop. Once again it will assume reality is somewhat sentient and will try to preserve its own integrity.
Theoretical physics today seems to be moving towards the multiverse theory (my second example) tho; w.r.t time travel having a multiverse (which can be created by branching timelines) literally makes all paradoxes moot.
a) not even reality itself can solve/preserve the onthological question: who came first, Yukari or Maribel?, because there is nothing to "preserve", it's not a "physical" dilemma (nothing was destroyed or changed by the time travel), but a "logical" one
b) the stable time loop conclusion is that the 2 items/beings don't have a beginning in history because they are part of an infinite loop. Not to be Captain Obvious but Maribel DOES have a clear beginning in history....
Of course, like you said, if we assume the presence of multiple dimensions then all the problems are solved ;)
I know that the land later known as Gensokyo was already populated by youkai before the barrier, what i meant is that judging by how Maribel's ability is explained and what she did with it, it seems to allow her to visit "supernatural" or "different" worlds, isolated by the "normal" world (can't find a better word).Firstly, it's only your assumption that Maribel's abilities are constrained to only visit "supernatural" places. I gave the example of the Torifune pod, which is entirely made up but is obviously made out to be a real thing in the future. Because it's made up and in the future, it's left to the reader to decide whether or not Maribel visited the "real" Torifune, or some illusionary version of it. As such, you can't discount that Maribel doesn't travel to "real places" as a matter-of-fact (we already know Yukari can do so anyways, even if Maribel's abilities aren't fully developed). And even if you argued that Torifune was illusionary due to the presence of youkai, since she also encountered youkai when in the Bamboo Forest, you can't simultaneously argue that she traveled somewhere real. Your argument is inconsistent either way you try to spin it.
If the barrier wasn't in place then Gensokyo would have been a "normal" place exactly like the countryside of France, Argentina etc.... assuming that Maribel can dream travel to any kind of place is either exaggerating her powers, or a truly incredible chain of coincidences that she dream travelled only to "special" places.
1) I'm not sure what you meant but Yukari helping creating the barrier is a CANON FACT, it's not my assumption. As such, if Maribel travelled to Gensokyo then Yukari MUST already be active (unless one of the 2 comes from a different dimension like some have theorized in this thread)You misunderstood. Of course Yukari helped create the Barrier, I even said so in my post. I'm saying that it's easily possible that Maribel traveled to a time before Yukari had formed the boundary of reality and illusion around Gensokyo, which dissolves your main point.
*explanation and image by Drake*Ok, i understand a bit better what you meant. AND I FINALLY FOUND THE HOLE IN MY THEORY THANKS TO YOU :)
So yes, Maribel CAN indeed travel back in time and become Yukari. Tiamat, you can stop foaming at the mouth and put down the pitchfork! :D
That said, I really can't repeat this enough, but ZUN already was asked "What was Yukari and Maribel's relationship?" and replied "There was a man named Lafcadio Hearn." IMHO, given that Lafcadio Hearn never had any descendants named Yakumo as far as anyone knows, I'd say that "Word of ZUN" rejects the idea of Yukari being Maribel's descendant or creator or whatever, myself (if anything, it's rather clear that it was Lafcadio Hearn that created Koizumi Yakumo, I'd think).
"Well, there was a man named Lafcadio Hearn, but Maribel and Yukari's relationship is a reverse version of that."
Of course, ZUN could have been lying through his teeth when he said that or purposefully leaving out a ton of detail that would completely change the context but... them's the breaks, I suppose. I can't really think of any times he's ever did something like that, but it's not like we have a large sample size of "ZUN confirmations" to go off of.Do remember that ZUN's friends with Ryukishi07. :V
Historically, Our world's Patrick Lafcadio Hearn married a Koizumi Setsu, thereby gaining the Koizumi surname by virtue of "marrying upwards" (he married into a Samurai household). Yakumo is the name he adopted after marrying, no idea whether the family gave it to him or not.
Yukari Yakumo (if that is her real name) doesn't have Koizumi as a surname AND predated this wedding in-universe.
Do remember that ZUN's friends with Ryukishi07. :V
My personal theory is that Maribel is a DESCENDANT of Yukari, caused by the latter "fooling around" in the Outside world in the past in a totally different way from the usual meaning :3