Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Beyond the Border~ => Rumia's Party Games => Mystia's Stored Games => Topic started by: GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em on April 05, 2015, 02:05:56 AM
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Rules:
- I'm the mod and my word is final. Don't do anything that you expect will annoy me, even if it's not in the rules. This includes looking for loopholes.
- No Outside Contact, keep the talking to the game thread unless your role allows otherwise.
- Don't directly intefere with the game if you're dead or not playing - if you're going to talk to other players or post in-thread I expect everything you say to have no game relevance whatsoever. Also, do not talk about the game to other players (dead or living) while deceased unless both of you have received a link to the graveyard quicktopic. The graveyard will contain a list of players who have access to it in the OP.
- Don't directly quote communications with the mod unless given permission. This includes your Role PM.
- Going 24 hours without a post nets you a prod. Going 48 hours without a post or receiving too many prods is likely to result in a modkill.
- Don't screenshot things.
- Don't edit your posts.
- Don't post after hammer.
- If you get yourself modkilled, you lose the game and your alignment may be subject to further punishment to circumvent any advantage your death could result in.
- Have good integrity. This includes not being a dick.
- Play to win.
Set-up Info:
- D1 start. 72 hour days, 24 hour nights. Night talk is off. Mafia have both day talk and night talk. Majority (half living players rounded down + 1) required to lynch.
- Town must lynch and scum must kill. Failing to reach majority or failing to send in a kill will result in a pseudo-random kill - pseudo-random because if necessary, I may rig it to harm the responsible faction. So don't rely on this as a gambit.
- This is a Mountainous (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mountainous) game (albeit with slightly modified mechanics and numbers), meaning all players are Vanilla.
- There are 11 town-aligned players and 3 mafia-aligned players.
- The third time a town-aligned player is lynched, the volcano gods will be angered and unleash their fury on a player of the sacrificed townie's choice, ##Killing them. The game will enter a no-posting-allowed twilight phase while the lynched townie makes their choice. The lynched townie is only allowed to post their command.
- There are no bastard elements to this game. Everything stated about the set-up is totally honest (if it isn't you can ban me from hosting for being a jerk).
Sample Role PMs:
X, you are a Vanilla Townie. You have no abilities other than your word and your vote. You win the game when all mafia members have been eliminated.
X, you are a Mafia Goon. You have no abilities other than your word, your vote and one factional kill per night. You win the game when your faction controls a majority of the votes, and may coordinate with your scumbuddies (X and X) at any time in this quicktopic.
Alive (3):
2. Sky_Paladin
11. Elieson
12. Refa
Dead (11):
7. Dormio Ergo Sum - Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 1
5. Mitsuki Vhaltz - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1
13. DrRawr - Mafia Goon, lynched Day 2
6. Bardiche - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
4. Zakeri - Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 3
10. SB - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
14. BT - Mafia Goon, lynched Day 4
3. ActionDan Shadoweh - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
9. O4rfish - Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 5
8. Selery - Vanilla Townie, killed Day 5
1. NekoRex - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 5
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Sending out role PMs, confirm in-thread when you receive yours.
Will start the game at 11/14 confirmations.
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Confirming.
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oh hey look I'm player (9) again!
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And so the nightmare begins.
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This was a bad idea
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Lol
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(http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2fekjsPa11qh2a6no1_500.gif)
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/in
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/6e/72/a8/6e72a8de5dfa3668281cd8cfea6831a2.jpg)
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/in or confirm, whatever we're up to.
Actually I am V/LA until tomorrow and just happened to be coming past ~
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Hi.
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so who actually wants to play
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Up down left right A B A B
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that's 11, but in interest of not having 4:30AM deadlines I'm not gonna start the game until I wake up
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holy shit the game actually happened I was not prepared for this actuality
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Hi
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It is now Day 1. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
You have 72 hours to pick a chump to string up.
also I just realized Zak hasn't been online in a week... if he hasn't confirmed in 48 hours I'm gonna look for a sub.
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I've never won a game with Bard, so hopefully he's scum.
##Vote: Bard
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I can't think of an RVS vote that doesn't make me sound like an asshole.
##Vote: ActionDan
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##Vote: Refa
Copped him N0, he's scum
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##Vote Shadoweh
... Wait, what do you mean? Shadoweh isn't in the game?
Nonsense! It says right here in my role PM that I'm a lyncher and need to lynch Shadoweh to win!
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Refa is always scum. Why did you waste a cop on him?
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to check if my scumread on him from before he signed up was right
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##vote: Skypal
hasn't posted yet, probably conferring with buddies
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##Vote SB
clearly making excuses to avoid providing a case
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n-no
I won't
I won't edit typoes
I won't do it by reflex and then go oops afterwords
I WON'T
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##Vote Dormio
Dormio is 2pro, let's cull him before he culls us
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##Vote SB/b]
clearly making excuses to avoid providing a case
my vote was literally going to emptyquoting prims' "pick a chump to lynch" and voting you :V
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##vote SB
Did not make a bus joke, obviously scum.
^^; Y-yeah, sorry about that other game...
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##Vote: NekoNekoRex
I got the email but when I went to confirm, somehow the entire website was kaboomed.
glad it's working today.
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do i even have to post? i mean i didnt even read the rules when i /in
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do i even have to post? i mean i didnt even read the rules when i /in
`__________________________________________`
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##Unvote: NekoNekoRex
##Vote: Dr. Rawr
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I wasn't going to change my vote, but Serela's whale face convinced me.
##Unvote
##Vote: Dr. Rawr
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baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
##Unvote
##Vote: Dr Rawr
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##Vote NekoNekoRex
OMGUS
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This forum looks ugly
##Vote Refa
Pretty sure he's scum plus Mitsuki is scum too for hard bussing D1 truer fax were never sent
Is there a way I can like change the forum skin or something?
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Also dormio is your thingy really fucking angeling? I want to marry you now Mitsuki time for you to find a new OTP this (i don't know what gender Dormio actually is) likes RO so <3
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This forum looks ugly
Is there a way I can like change the forum skin or something?
Yes. Go to Keine's PTA, click on the thread labeled New Mobile Theme, and complain a whole lot. You will see a change in the forum skin, either from Helvetica changing it for everybody, or from you getting banned.
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##Vote Elieson
Things wrong with this forum skin:
Things wrong with your face: Serela
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##Vote: SB
3rd on wagon = scum
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Also dormio is your thingy really fucking angeling? I want to marry you now Mitsuki time for you to find a new OTP this (i don't know what gender Dormio actually is) likes RO so <3
I'm sorry, but my heart already belongs to somebody else.
Thanks for the flattery though, I'm sure it'll just feel that much better when I stab you during the night.
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Voting the self-proclaimed scum.
##Unvote, Vote:Dormio Ergo Scum
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Now, now. Be patient and you'll get your turn too.
I can't kill you all at once, you know.
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##Unvote
##Vote: Dormio
He's not playing to his town meta of making a ridiculous RVS case that somehow catches scum every time.
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You're just jealous of my mad skills, aren't you?
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I woke up this morning going "I'll just sheep Dormio's vote to victory when I check the thread, it always works." so understandably I'm quite upset.
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Well nothing is stopping you from sheeping my vote right now. :)
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Waking up and seeing we only have 2 pages and it's all RVS is amazing. I really mean it, I stopped following .hack mafia on SF because of the spam.
@Bardiche, how serious is your vote?
same @SB, I guess it's just a joke in his case though.
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So, Mitsuki, what's the point of asking SB how serious his vote is if you're going to answer for him the very same post?
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Gutread strong.
I would like an answer to Dormio's question though.
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Because I wasn't sure, so I wanted to clarify it.
Either way I don't think I can get any reads from it. RIP
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Dormio/Mitsuki scumteam confirmed.
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Illuminati confirmed.
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Are they your third scumbuddy?
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No, I'm their third scumbuddy! >:T
Oh wait, no, I'm looking at the wrong game's rolepm.
But still.
##Vote Dormio
Citing O4frish and SB. (No not the scumteam confirmed part. Probably. >.>)
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##unvote
##Vote: Serela
Don't like that vote. Looks serious, yet I see no reason why he'd think Dormio would be scum, and the fact that SB and Oarfish aren't making strong votes in the first place only makes it worse. Serela, what part of their suspicions on Dormio do you agree with? Please reply with your own words.
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He's not playing to his town meta of making a ridiculous RVS case that somehow catches scum every time.
Voting the self-proclaimed scum.
Sorry about the lack of own words, paraphrasing these quips would just be thinly veiled parroting! I can at least vaguely believe in this, uh, 'case', as opposed to a random vote.
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Eh, if I said that I wanted you to reply with your own words it was for a reason. I already knew that you were referring to that anyways.
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If you knew what I was talking about I'm not sure how you would think there would be a way to elaborate further :S
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Since your vote looks extremely uninvolved and I see no conviction on it I want you to use your own words on the matter, to get a better read on you.
I think it's dumb that you don't want to do it but whatever
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it's not that I don't want to it's that the reasons for the vote are so cut, dry, and shallow that the notion seems impossible `-` I mean it seems like a trick question where no matter what I do I'm going to look bad in the end
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Mitsuki, what were you expecting to get from Serela's response?
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Uh, elaborating a little because that's kind of vague, what kind of response would expect from both alignments in Serela's position?
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We saw CF7 last game claim he was buddies with Dormio, and then CF7 turned out to be scum. Mitsuki pushed this previously and nobody believed her at the time.
##unvote
##vote Serela
I want to see what happens.
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Things wrong with your face: Serela
? I think you have me confused with somebody slightly more Serela than myself
Waking up and seeing we only have 2 pages and it's all RVS is amazing. I really mean it, I stopped following .hack mafia on SF because of the spam.
*AHEM* a host of that game is right here you know
Fortunately, Refa and Mitsuki are always scum, and Dormio just claimed so gg let's go have pie, i'll buy since i'm filthy stinkin' rich. sb sheep me
##Unvote
##Vote Dormio
if I can't have you, I can't let anyone else have you. That and you just claimed scum so my hands are tied behind my back because what is wifom anyway
@Mitscum; why are you weighing SB's and O4R's votes against Dormio? Do you think Serely (Serela, right?) is trying to hop on a wagon lazily at this stage in the game?
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*AHEM* a host of that game is right here you know
But it's not your fault if people spamposted
Uh, elaborating a little because that's kind of vague, what kind of response would expect from both alignments in Serela's position?
No idea, but I think the reply would be telling anyways.
@Mitscum; why are you weighing SB's and O4R's votes against Dormio?
Because Serela is basing his vote on them.
I can't see Oarfish's vote as more than a joke by the way.
Do you think Serely (Serela, right?) is trying to hop on a wagon lazily at this stage in the game?
No, I think he's trying to appear as contributing (scummy) instead of actually contributing (townie).
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##Unvote
##Vote: Mitsuki
It feels like she's following an empty line of questioning. There's what Dormio pointed out with her question towards me, and then the aimless question towards Serela. I get that he didn't respond in the way that she was hoping for, but I feel like she didn't really make an attempt to make something of his response instead of complaining about it.
Sky, do you actually believe in Mitsuki's Serela and agree with it, or are you just following along anyway? It's hard to tell.
Serela's self-consciousness is weird but at the same time it doesn't feel like he's playing his usual scumgame yet. I'd keep an eye on the slot but he's not a priority.
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I explained to Serela why I wanted him to elaborate and he didn't want to, so I felt like insisting more would be dumb.
As for Serela's replies, I have had my thoughts on them for a while, but I don't think I can derive any strong points from them. It feels weird that he didn't want to reply in the first place, and I kind of think he could be doing so because he has no real thoughts on the matter and is just voting for the sake of it but I guessed he could also be lazy/prideful town or something.
His reply here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174906.html#msg1174906) makes me inclined to believe in the first option though, since he's openly admitting that he didn't want to reply to me because he'd look bad because of it. Still not sure it's telling though.
Dismissing a read because someone's scummy but not playing to their usual scumgame is dumb, people can change.
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##Vote: Mitsuki
Accusing someone of "not having strong reasons" while we're hardly even out of RVS? I don't expect anyone to have strong convictions and well-articulated reasons at this stage.
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@SB
Sky, do you actually believe in Mitsuki's Serela and agree with it, or are you just following along anyway?
I don't believe 100% Serela is scum. I do see Mitsuki driving activity and Serela backing away from it. If I had to pick right now between who I'd keep in the game, I'd take Mitsuki.
I don't remember if Mitsuki made the point that Serela claimed scum buddies, I think her case is more that Serela is wriggling like a worm on a hook instead of being direct. It's been a long time but I seem to remember scum!Serela evading and town!Serela being just straight up confused about stuff, so I actually do agree with her general direction without looking at the great details.
So my vote is probably 60% I don't like people claiming scum even as a joke, 25% I agree with Mitsuki's vote, and the rest is I get a bad feeling reading Serela's posts.
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Gonna wait for a votecount before I start pretending to care about this game.
My gut is that Mitsuki isn't suspicious, though.
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His reply here makes me inclined to believe in the first option though, since he's openly admitting that he didn't want to reply to me because he'd look bad because of it
what, no
I said that I didn't reply to you because I can't see how it's even possible to give a half-decent actual answer to your question :V
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##Vote: Mitsuki
Accusing someone of "not having strong reasons" while we're hardly even out of RVS? I don't expect anyone to have strong convictions and well-articulated reasons at this stage.
I'm not only voting Serela because his reasons are not strong, otherwise I could have voted SB or you on your Dormio vote.
The main point is that I think Serela was trying to look serious and contributing with his vote yet I see no reason why he'd actually suspect Dormio. Town can make weak votes at this point of the game, but it wouldn't feel like they're trying too hard to look as contributing.
@Serela: thoughts on the game?
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I forgot to mention that even if town made a weak vote there would be some belief in it, which I don't see in Serela's Dormio vote.
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I was going to post a hypothesis tying together the scumteam, but then I realized some people haven't even entered the fray.
Mitsuki, why are you asking Serela for his thoughts on the game when he's been posting more than most people?
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My thoughts on the game are the only thing that's actually happened is the Mistuki vs. Me and that whilst I could make a vote at this point that's marginally better than the one on Dormio, it's by such a small amount that it's not worth hopping back and forth between flimsy wagons for.
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Mitsuki, why are you asking Serela for his thoughts on the game when he's been posting more than most people?
Because he's not given any original reads and he's my scumread.
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@SB
I don't believe 100% Serela is scum.
##Unvote
##Vote Sky Paladin
actual serious vote. this kind justification is beyond unnecessary especially at this stage in the game. someone's being a little too cautious when they don't have any reason to even consider _strong_ scumreads as something worth stating.
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##Vote: Zak
Immediately scummy thing when there's content and real content and you pretty much outright state you're just going to lurk.
Also don't like Sky's Serela vote when he isn't confident about it. I understand that the game is only really just starting but you should have more conviction when there's two sides here.
Mitsuki seems fair but so do the votes on her, so no real read except maybe town-town yet.
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Mitsuki, why is Serela having no original reads during the earliest stage of the game bad? You don't seem to have any other scumread yourself so this comes across as really weird to me.
Bard's vote on Mitsuki feels really nitpicky though, considering he seems to have ignored the majority of her posts. What do you think about the rest of the game?
##Unvote
##Vote: Bard
Zak is probably town because I don't feel like he'd have the audacity to say "not contributing lol" when iirc it got him lynched in NotV2. Oarfish and Serela also feel town but this is more of a gut thing then something I can reason out. Sky feels weird but I'm not sure if that's scuminess or just generally being Sky.
@NNR, can you explain your stuff about Mitsuki/her voters in more depth?
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Either way I don't think I can get any reads from it. RIP
What answer from SB would give you a read? Asking "how serious was your vote" in RVS will not net you a telling response, so your response confuses me.
##unvote
##Vote: Serela
Don't like that vote. Looks serious, yet I see no reason why he'd think Dormio would be scum, and the fact that SB and Oarfish aren't making strong votes in the first place only makes it worse. Serela, what part of their suspicions on Dormio do you agree with? Please reply with your own words.
She claimed scum before voting someone for claiming scum, so I don't get why it looks serious to you. Anyways, going to take a page from your book here; how serious is your vote on Serela (not your current one which I assume is partly based on his responses, but the one here)? Also regarding on the below quote...
it's not that I don't want to it's that the reasons for the vote are so cut, dry, and shallow that the notion seems impossible `-` I mean it seems like a trick question where no matter what I do I'm going to look bad in the end
I can't see scum saying this. Like, this isn't a gutread but I don't know how to explain my reasoning here, it's frustrating.
We saw CF7 last game claim he was buddies with Dormio, and then CF7 turned out to be scum. Mitsuki pushed this previously and nobody believed her at the time.
##unvote
##vote Serela
I want to see what happens.
How is this relevant to Serela.
##Vote: Zak
Immediately scummy thing when there's content and real content and you pretty much outright state you're just going to lurk.
Also don't like Sky's Serela vote when he isn't confident about it. I understand that the game is only really just starting but you should have more conviction when there's two sides here.
Mitsuki seems fair but so do the votes on her, so no real read except maybe town-town yet.
Got you. Your Zak vote is just jumping on something that's considered bad play without explaining why it's scummy (personally, it was a null tell for me because I have no idea what he'd do in that situation as town/scum). Your issues with Sky are stronger, but you're not pushing Sky anyways because you're scum I don't know. Finally, your Mitsuki read is wishy washy as all hell and it's just...really dismissive for no reason? Like you've put no actual effort into reading it. Three strikes and you're out.
##Unvote
##Vote: NekoNekoRex
PS SB, I'd sheep your vote on Mitsuki (in addition to what you said, it doesn't seem like Mitsuki really bothered to analyze Serela's future posts; anyways, I thought of this on my own anyways, so is it really a sheep?), but I'd rather do my own thing ATM. Wouldn't sheep your Bard vote though, why is his post nitpicky?
PPS Elieson, why is Sky over justifying himself scummy? It's one thing if he's faking conviction that he shouldn't have at this stage, but he's well not. Please explain.
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Mitsuki, why is Serela having no original reads during the earliest stage of the game bad? You don't seem to have any other scumread yourself so this comes across as really weird to me.
SB dear, I love you, but I'm getting tired of replying to stuff that's actually well explained in my previous posts.
I'm ok with people not having reads at this stage of the game, but the fact that Serela tried to look as contributing remains. I don't think a townie would make a vote like he did, since I don't see any intentionality behind his vote other than what I stated.
Why do you think Serela is town?
cut, replying in my next post
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Just realized my wording here ("Your Zak vote is just jumping on something that's considered bad play without explaining why it's scummy") is kind of a misrep, so sorry about that. My problem is that you're just jumping on it without bothering to analyze it at all. Do you expect scum to outright say that they're active lurking? Do you think he's taking refuge in audacity?
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What answer from SB would give you a read? Asking "how serious was your vote" in RVS will not net you a telling response, so your response confuses me.
I explained this before. The more people elaborate on what they're commenting on the more likely I will be to get a read on them. I don't know what would make a townie or scummy response until I read it.
She claimed scum before voting someone for claiming scum, so I don't get why it looks serious to you. Anyways, going to take a page from your book here; how serious is your vote on Serela (not your current one which I assume is partly based on his responses, but the one here)?
Serela implied his vote was serious here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174896.html#msg1174896).
My vote on Serela was (and is) 100% serious.
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SB dear, I love you, but I'm getting tired of replying to stuff that's actually well explained in my previous posts.
I'm ok with people not having reads at this stage of the game, but the fact that Serela tried to look as contributing remains. I don't think a townie would make a vote like he did, since I don't see any intentionality behind his vote other than what I stated.
Why do you think Serela is town?
No, I get why you think the vote is weak, but I don't see why you expect Serela to have /original/ suspicions at this point in the game and the distinction bothered me.
Leaning towards Serela town due to the stuff a combination of the stuff Refa posted, gut and meta.
PS SB, I'd sheep your vote on Mitsuki (in addition to what you said, it doesn't seem like Mitsuki really bothered to analyze Serela's future posts; anyways, I thought of this on my own anyways, so is it really a sheep?), but I'd rather do my own thing ATM. Wouldn't sheep your Bard vote though, why is his post nitpicky?
It feels nitpicky because I feel like there's a lot more to be said about Mitsuki then that, but blatant lack of anything else (not just about Mitsuki, but about the entire game) is kind of worrisome. Even disregarding Mitsuki I feel like town!Bard would've been riled up about Serela's posts or at least have some kind of opinion on them.
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No, I get why you think the vote is weak, but I don't see why you expect Serela to have /original/ suspicions at this point in the game and the distinction bothered me.
I think you don't understand what I mean. I agree that Town!Serela could not have any reads at this stage of the game.
The point is that I can't see town intent behind Serela's vote, but I see he tried to appear as contributing. I think like this because his vote was weak and I don't think he was trying to push Dormio with it.
Since the only purpose I see behind his vote is that one, I think he's scum trying to appear as contributing to seem townie.
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I feel like there's a lot more to be said about Mitsuki then that,
I feel like town!Bard would've been riled up about Serela's posts
I'll care about your feelings about as much as I care to comment on anything outside of Mitsuki's vote. Don't bother demanding I nitpick over every post in this game, I won't do it anyway. I'll comment on stuff that sticks out, such as Mitsuki voting Serela.
The main point is that I think Serela was trying to look serious and contributing with his vote yet I see no reason why he'd actually suspect Dormio.
I think Serela's explanation post and the timing of the vote makes abundantly clear why this doesn't fly.
I think he's scum trying to appear as contributing to seem townie.
Why is this specifically scummy for Serela? What in his actions is unlike town!Serela?
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Day 1.1 - Votals
Dormio (2) - O4rfish, Serela
NekoRex (2) - Dormio, Refa
Serela (2) - Mitsuki, Sky_Paladin
Bardiche (1) - SB
Dr Rawr (1) - Zakeri
Elieson (1) - BT
Mitsuki (1) - Bardiche
Sky_Paladin (1) - Elieson
Zakeri (1) - NekoRex
Not Voting: Dr Rawr, ActionDan
You have 47 hours and 20 minutes remaining in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
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I'll care about your feelings about as much as I care to comment on anything outside of Mitsuki's vote. Don't bother demanding I nitpick over every post in this game, I won't do it anyway. I'll comment on stuff that sticks out, such as Mitsuki voting Serela.
^ To be honest I'm inclined to agree with SB on Bardiche. This response feels too agressive; I know that Bard tends to be a jerk when it comes to talking to people in mafia but he seems too bothered this time. As town I'd expect he'd actually have defended his read when questioned about it instead of just attacking the person who is suspecting him.
This also goes with his meta as far as I recall.
Why is this specifically scummy for Serela? What in his actions is unlike town!Serela?
It's not specifically scummy for Serela, if someone else had done the same I'd be voting for them instead.
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As town I'd expect
It's because you make ridiculous expectations that "a Town!Bard would", which is a strawman argument that demands I behave in specific way Y and can never behave in any other way without being suspicious. Sorry! This is just how it's going to be.
It's not specifically scummy for Serela, if someone else had done the same I'd be voting for them instead.
Last game we got over a huge argument re: Sky Pal meta, why are you disregarding Serela meta?
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PPS Elieson, why is Sky over justifying himself scummy? It's one thing if he's faking conviction that he shouldn't have at this stage, but he's well not. Please explain.
The fact that he provided justification the way he did is what's scummy. He placed conviction on his vote, then in his later post (the one I cited), waffled on his read but not enough to indicate that he was serious about maintaining his vote. In fact, until he said 60% at the end, his context made it seem like he actually didn't want to keep his vote on Selrara
*p.edit
is Bard really this abrasive normally? I don't remember him being so kurt in our SF games. Seems a bit out of character to me
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I'm not actually ready to post again yet but is it really necessary to dig into Bard's mood that much, I mean it's the reason his responses are like that in the first place
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I honestly don't get why you people assume the worst and think I'm being a jerk. I'm being upfront: I don't care for SB's "I feel"s about who I am, and even if he demands it I'm not going to bother dissecting every post made. Despite his claims, I never do that in the early game. At best, he's got a wrong idea about my playstyle. At worst, he's using a strawman to attack me. In either case, I don't think it's worth getting into much at this stage.
If Mitsuki thinks I'm "bothered", it's because SB's style of voting is pretty scummy. I feel like town!Bard would've been riled up about Serela's posts or at least have some kind of opinion on them.
This blatantly states that if I am to present myself as Town, I should have an opinion on Serela or be "riled up" by them, even if I hardly ever pay overly much attention to Serela's antics outside of voting him for waffling.
If you think I'm honestly being "a jerk" and "abrasive" and "kurt", uh, feel free to send me hateful PMs about what a terrible person I am. But if it isn't relevant to the game, I'd appreciate you leave the ad hominem out of it. Even if veiled in eloquence.
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And for the record: while I think SB's style of voting is scummy, I don't actually think he's scummier than Mitsuki, or scummy enough to bother pursuing over. This style of argument never holds water into the lategame, and if he wants to keep his vote on me I'm perfectly convinced he'll find more substantial reason to do so, or abandon his vote when he can't find reason. There's hardly anything in the game right now that I think his vote on me is perfectly understandable if he believes what he says about me.
He's just wrong, but being wrong isn't automatically scummy.
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serela isnt scum you people are crazy you heard it from dr rawr first.
i have no idea what mitsuki means by bard being to aggressive. would mitsuki give some kind of obvious example of bardiche being a jerk as town and being even more of a jerk as scum?
##Vote: Sky paladin
i dont like the wording on his #71 that seems to make out that scum has to be either mitsuki or serela
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Zak is scummy because lurking is scummy. Popping in with the chance to give content and then stating you're not is scummy, he doesn't even bother to read the thread, The notion he'd have 'no idea what to do' is crap, plenty of other people are throwing votes down, he can just as well.
Do you expect scum to outright say that they're active lurking? Do you think he's taking refuge in audacity?
It's clearly a prod dodge, the only content he gives is gut and he doesn't bother to explain it. As far as refuge in audacity, I wouldn't know, as I don't analyze meta very much (as I tend to call it out anyway). If I was to say, it's that Zak generally has a habit of not contributing much anyway, and I'd rather be rid of a player who lurks all game sooner rather then later, regardless of alignment.
The Mitsuki stuff reads as strong opinions, which are good this early in the game when there's little content. I'd consider a weak vote like Sky's more glaringly scummy then even a vote that doesn't have the best reasoning, but at least is a sure read.
The actual reasoning behind both Mitsuki's vote and the votes on Mitsuki seem well-placed, but I don't think they're particularly scummy.
Then again now I'm having a problem with all this meta talk
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Mitsuki, why are you asking Serela for his thoughts on the game when he's been posting more than most people?
I actually find this question a little weird, because all but one post was just responses to Mitsuki that didn't actually elaborate about the game.
I agree with Elieson about SP's "don't 100% believe Serela is scum" looking a little weird, overjustifying votes is something to be suspicious of from my experience (not elaborating unless someone deems it necessary because :effort:) and since the game was still nearly RVS, well, yeah.
...oh the reread is over, right, the game only just started <.<; Nothing else sticks out to me. TBH I had some Mitsuki stuff I pulled out as looking too tryhard to the point of being suspicious but when I actually examined it I changed my mind. I dunno, I still feel like there might be something there, but I can't pinpoint what's triggering my gut. I'll just have to leave it keeping an eye on Mitsuki for now to see if that goes away or not.
...Dormio hasn't posted, I'm not sure if that should make me want to leave my vote there more, or less? I guess when I think about it, even though the SkyP wonkiness is light, the reason I was voting Dormio is even more ephemeral and I shouldn't even be treating it like a real vote :V (Since it somewhat matters in this situation- yeah, the Dormio vote was vaguely serious, but only enough to get over RVS tier vote strength)
##unvote ##Vote Dormio
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aaaaaaa
##unvote ##vote SkyPaladin
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Hmm, OK Shadoweh well ... waitasec, that's not Shadoweh!
I find Bard to be acting suspiciously tolerant.
He's just wrong, but being wrong isn't automatically scummy.
This is true, except we are in the early game and playing with hardly any information.
Yknow what's scummy to me? Claiming scum, then disappearing! Everyone feel free to vote Dormio along with me.
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@Ellie
this kind justification is beyond unnecessary especially at this stage in the game. someone's being a little too cautious when they don't have any reason to even consider _strong_ scumreads as something worth stating.
I don't have a strong scum read on Serela. That is why I said I don't 100% believe Serela is scum.
I have what amounts to somewhere between a policy lynch (lynch anybody who claims scum) and a general feeling that Serela's posts are noncontent backpedalling escapes from Mitsuki's fairly straightforward questions. I'm not really sure how you're getting a strong justification out of anything I've said so far, but please do clarify.
The fact that he provided justification the way he did is what's scummy. He placed conviction on his vote, then in his later post (the one I cited), waffled on his read but not enough to indicate that he was serious about maintaining his vote. In fact, until he said 60% at the end, his context made it seem like he actually didn't want to keep his vote on Selrara
I'm not serious about maintaining my vote. It's a step up from RVS, but I'm not going OMG SERELA IS TOTES SCUM LYNCH WITH FIRE. You're misreading me.
@Refa
How is this relevant to Serela.
In my experience, scum!Serela tends to tunnel/out her buddies pretty early, so for her to claim scum is worth investigating by flip. It's certainly the best thing I've seen so far this phase.
@Serela
Please talk about your vote one me~
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If I mentioned Bard's attitude it's because I found it scummy, not because I think he's a terrible person and I like spreading hate in mafia games. lol
I don't know why but I didn't mention some of my thoughts on Bardiche on my case. His two (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174927.html#msg1174927) first (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174974.html#msg1174974) posts (his case on me) seem pretty uninvolved, and it feels more like he's voting me on not being up to expectations than on being scummy.
An example of the latter point is how he asks to me why what I pointed out is a scumtell for Serela, in the second post, when I hadn't been talking about Serela meta. When I reply about it, he proceeds to say (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174979.html#msg1174979) that I used meta on a previous game. But I don't always use meta, so why would it be scummy that I didn't use it in the first place? Seems like he's trying too hard to find reasons for his vote.
@Bardiche, please explain why what you've pointed out about me is scummy
also: I'm not disregarding Serela meta, I just don't know much of it. Feel free to comment on his meta, and I'll listen.
If Mitsuki thinks I'm "bothered", it's because SB's style of voting is pretty scummy. This blatantly states that if I am to present myself as Town, I should have an opinion on Serela or be "riled up" by them, even if I hardly ever pay overly much attention to Serela's antics outside of voting him for waffling.
Why didn't you say that at the time then, instead of just attacking SB? I don't get why you think SB's scummy but then say he's just wrong and not scummy, why did you say he was scummy in the first place then?
This further proves my point that Bardiche's been focused on attacking SB instead of focusing on giving his thoughts on the game.
I'll look up the Bard meta for Rawr when I have time to.
##Unvote
##Vote: Bardiche
I think Serela and him are equally scummy but I think my vote is better off here.
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I don't have a strong scum read on Serela. That is why I said I don't 100% believe Serela is scum.
I have what amounts to somewhere between a policy lynch (lynch anybody who claims scum) and a general feeling that Serela's posts are noncontent backpedalling escapes from Mitsuki's fairly straightforward questions. I'm not really sure how you're getting a strong justification out of anything I've said so far, but please do clarify.
This feels contradictory.
Why is Mitsuki worth voting more than Serela given what you've said about having reasons to vote for Serela and saying that you're not serious about keeping your vote on Mitsuki?
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Also, I don't really get the argument against Bard. Whatever.
##Unvote
##Vote Sky Paladin
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The vote count sucks. Can we get another one where people are voting for others?
##Unvote
I don't like SB's case on Mitsuki at all, considering pretty much every line of questioning is going to be empty at this point in the game.
I also don't like Bardiche, but I don't think there's a flaw in his argument and also I always don't like Bard so I feel like I should ignore it.
I was going to post a hypothesis tying together the scumteam, but then I realized some people haven't even entered the fray.
This sentence rings too many red alarms in quick succession.
Elieson has a good point. Ignoring NNR. I don't agree with SB that Mitsuki only having one read on a person who has no reads is "weird". Not interested in reading Refa but what little I did feels good for the day.
I did read the thread, but there was nothing that stuck out at me, so I was hoping to get a VC quickly so I could at least read the votes and go accordingly. I thought about voting on the quickwagon, but when I looked at it it was just O4rfish who's argument I has agreed with and SB who was third on the wagon is scum is never scum.
Not sure what people are trying to pin on sky.
"I don't have a strong scumread on Serela."
"Why are you even considering 'strong scumreads'?"
"Umm, I dunno, I just don't have a strong read."
"How would you determine the value of your votes on people if you consider your votes on these people as not coming from strong reads?"
Like, umm, what?
Dormio could you clearify what you're even trying to ask him? It just looks like bullhockey trying to trip him up.
Cut: :/
##Vote: Dormio
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I'm not voting Mitsuki, I'm voting Serela.
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Disclaimer
Quotation marks do not indicate actual quotes. they are paraphrasings. If i was actually quoting I would use the quote function with name and post number (as shown above)
Please do not vote me because I used quotation marks, that is a thing only a stupid person would do.
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Day 1.2 - Votals
Sky_Paladin (4) - Elieson, Dr Rawr, Serela, Dormio
Bardiche (2) - SB, Mitsuki
Dormio (2) - O4rfish, Zakeri
Elieson (1) - BT
Mitsuki (1) - Bardiche
NekoRex (1) - Refa
Serela (1) - Sky_Paladin
Zakeri (1) - NekoRex
Not Voting: ActionDan
You have 36 hours remaining in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
ActionDan has been prodded.
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also the previous votecount was an hour off cuz I forgot to update my forum time for daylight savings, it's fixed now.
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I explained this before. The more people elaborate on what they're commenting on the more likely I will be to get a read on them. I don't know what would make a townie or scummy response until I read it.
Yeah, but I don't see how you would ever get a town/scum read from that line of questioning (at least, during the RVS voting stage anyways)...whatever. At this point, this just seems like a difference in opinion rather than something actually worth pursuing.
Serela implied his vote was serious here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174896.html#msg1174896).
Serelaiously what is this, I don't even. I can't even comprehend what she was thinking there. Send help.
My vote on Serela was (and is) 100% serious.
Zvarri! It is all becoming clear to me now. Your initial vote was based off of a lack of understanding over scum intent (why didn't you ask Serela if her vote was serious before voting her?), yet you stuck to your vote anyways despite having no strong feelings towards their future posts. I figured your initial vote could be a reaction test (which would explain you sticking to it despite initially weak reasons as well as technically taking into account his future posts even without analyzing them), hence the question...but then it wasn't. So uh...yeah, it's pretty scummy how you held onto it for so long despite having no strong feelings towards her replies. Maybe you didn't have a better vote at the time, but you did by this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174977.html#msg1174977) point.
The fact that he provided justification the way he did is what's scummy. He placed conviction on his vote, then in his later post (the one I cited), waffled on his read but not enough to indicate that he was serious about maintaining his vote. In fact, until he said 60% at the end, his context made it seem like he actually didn't want to keep his vote on Selrara
*p.edit
is Bard really this abrasive normally? I don't remember him being so kurt in our SF games. Seems a bit out of character to me
Oh, I misunderstood your point entirely. Go me. So he's not scummy because he overjustified himself, but because he waffled on a read that he earlier had conviction on despite no reason to do so (because town can waffle on their scumreads, but with no post from Serela, Sky's waffle doesn't make any sense)? Just want to make sure that we're on the same page here, because that's pretty legit (would sheep tier). While I've got your attention though, what are your thoughts on other players? You haven't really talked about anyone besides Sky, and they're all becoming rather jealous of him!
He played similarly in Unnamed Mafia.
I honestly don't get why you people assume the worst and think I'm being a jerk.
Probably your avatar. Looks like a jerk to me.
Zak is scummy because lurking is scummy. Popping in with the chance to give content and then stating you're not is scummy, he doesn't even bother to read the thread, The notion he'd have 'no idea what to do' is crap, plenty of other people are throwing votes down, he can just as well.
Lurking isn't scummy unless it's done for an extended period of time. Obviously he read the thread considering his gutread on Mitsuki. I agree that he could have done more at that point, but I'm not really bothered by that unless he continues to do so.
As far as refuge in audacity, I wouldn't know, as I don't analyze meta very much (as I tend to call it out anyway). If I was to say, it's that Zak generally has a habit of not contributing much anyway, and I'd rather be rid of a player who lurks all game sooner rather then later, regardless of alignment.
This point is really bad. I can't see town being so apathetic to the lynch of a player for reasons that they know aren't alignment indicative.
The actual reasoning behind both Mitsuki's vote and the votes on Mitsuki seem well-placed, but I don't think they're particularly scummy.
You're missing the point (deliberately or not). If Mitsuki's vote is perfectly fine to you, then there must be something wrong with the votes on her (even if they're not scummy). You cannot actually be fine with both of them at the same time, that's...not how logic works.
I find Bard to be acting suspiciously tolerant.
Yknow what's scummy to me? Claiming scum, then disappearing! Everyone feel free to vote Dormio along with me.
You're joking, right? People are complaining about Bard being too abrasive and you're saying that he's suspiciously tolerant.
Kind of assuming the same about your Dormio vote. What bothers me more here is what that implies, namely that you don't really have any thoughts on the rest of the game.
Dormio could you clearify what you're even trying to ask him? It just looks like bullhockey trying to trip him up.
Cut: :/
##Vote: Dormio
Please explain your reasoning here, because you uh...didn't.
Maybe I'm just biased because Bard's posting style is really entertaining, but I'm townreading him myself. SB's reasoning on him was fine for the time (while I agreed with Bard's initial point on Mitsuki, it wasn't exactly enough for me to get a read on the dude himself), but his responses have been good (I react similarly when people scumread me) and he is actively pursuing his scumread. More importantly perhaps is that the scumreads on him are either based on his meta (don't know) or his tone (don't care), so they're sheep unworthy.
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Note how Dormio and Serelery both sort of claimed scum, and they're both voting Skypal.
FWIW I think Skypal justified his vote, and he's stuck to it. I would point out that he is usually bad at explaining things to other people.
I wonder where BT is?
Cut by too long a post.
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I'm not voting Mitsuki, I'm voting Serela.
I can't read.
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##Unvote
Will read when I'm not busy and before I go to sleep hopefully.
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Lurking isn't scummy unless it's done for an extended period of time. Obviously he read the thread considering his gutread on Mitsuki. I agree that he could have done more at that point, but I'm not really bothered by that unless he continues to do so.
...
This point is really bad. I can't see town being so apathetic to the lynch of a player for reasons that they know aren't alignment indicative.
...
You're missing the point (deliberately or not). If Mitsuki's vote is perfectly fine to you, then there must be something wrong with the votes on her (even if they're not scummy). You cannot actually be fine with both of them at the same time, that's...not how logic works.
Is this hyperbole, because I can compass the idea of being fine with the reasons for votes in a short chain, as long as the votes weren't placed solely because of the other votes.
I would be fine with lynching a lurker, either active or passive, because MotK Mafia tends to reward lurking too often.
You're joking, right? People are complaining about Bard being too abrasive and you're saying that he's suspiciously tolerant.
Bard is always a mean jerk, but in this game he's letting things slide. Normally he operates like Phoenix Wright, doesn't he? Finds a contradiction, chases it down until he's revealed the person is scummy. A bloodhound maybe?
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Note how Dormio and Serelery both sort of claimed scum, and they're both voting Skypal.
Everybody keeps forgetting that I said why I was voting Serela when I voted Serela and keeps making up mysterious reasons for why I might be more/less serious about it than I should/shouldn't be.
Here. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174912.html#msg1174912)
I'm still doing this.
I want to see what happens.
I'm mainly concerned with Rawr's vote at the moment - Serela's is basically an OMGUS and we see that as pretty much standard Serela so it's not surprising or alignment indicative. I'm less willing to dismiss Dormio's vote as bungling town, since he clearly wanted to vote me and then got the basis for it wrong, so I'll look forward to his correct explanation and vote.
Rawr's vote gets me frowning because he tried to make it seem I was lining up lynches or restricting the lynch between Mitsuki and Serela, when this isn't the case at all, as the basis for his vote.
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Is this hyperbole, because I can compass the idea of being fine with the reasons for votes in a short chain, as long as the votes weren't placed solely because of the other votes.
I would be fine with lynching a lurker, either active or passive, because MotK Mafia tends to reward lurking too often.
Bard is always a mean jerk, but in this game he's letting things slide. Normally he operates like Phoenix Wright, doesn't he? Finds a contradiction, chases it down until he's revealed the person is scummy. A bloodhound maybe?
The problem isn't that he's fine with the votes (that would be hypocritical of me), but that he's fine with the votes on Mitsuki AND Mitsuki's vote at the same time.
Fair enough regarding lynching a lurker, I guess. Don't really agree with it myself (unless I'm reading every active player as town) and Dormio isn't even the lurkiest person playing (that would be BT...not counting Action Dan because I'm not sure he even knows that this game is a thing), but my problem is that you don't seem to have any reads on the actively playing players.
CCing Phoenix Wright.
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It's kind of mindboggling the amount of times I see people at least semi-seriously bringing up "serela claimed scumbuddies w/skypal and mitsuki for one sentence and then retracted it as obviously being completely unserious in the next sentence" as apparently an actual reason for them to continue voting me, does it seriously bother people that much? I mean literally claiming scum is mildly annoying but in this case it was obviously taken to the nth tier as I was going along with the unserious rvs pinned scumteam and went "yeah, no." immediately.
I don't actually remember if it was skypal and mitsuki but it's -so ridiculous this is being talked about so much- that I really don't even care who it was and it doesn't matter anywhere near enough to come near being worth bothering to check.
Anyway I'm leaving to eat breakfast and buy EMD or w/e `-`
re:SkyPal: Both your reasons are ridiculous (I maintain that I believe mitsuki's question was basically unanswerable to any significant degree and I just addressed the other) so I don't really see a reason to unvote.
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I don't actually remember if it was skypal and mitsuki
Fake. Vote staying where it is.
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Your initial vote was based off of a lack of understanding over scum intent (why didn't you ask Serela if her vote was serious before voting her?), yet you stuck to your vote anyways despite having no strong feelings towards their future posts.
I didn't ask Serela because it was pretty clear to me that he was serious. I don't have anything else to say about Serela because he's basically having 0 original reads and laying in the background, and I already talked about that.
Why are you saying I didn't have strong feelings towards Serela's new posts? Actually, what do you mean by that?
it's pretty scummy how you held onto it for so long despite having no strong feelings towards her replies.
The fact that Serela didn't do anything worth pointing out with regards to his recent posts doesn't mean that his earliest posts suddenly stopped being scummy.
I'm late already and I still haven't caught up with the thread. YAY
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rofl seriously
the fact that I don't actually go back and check who the 'confirmed scumteam' (something that could not possibly matter at all) was that I joked about being the third of, is somehow a better reason for SkyPal for stay on me
Yeah my SkyPal vote is steadily getting more and more serious. :T Now I actually desire lynchings.
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Serela.
I didn't say why I felt that snip was faked.
You just assumed that I meant the names. Just now you told us that you knew the name ordering was incorrect.
You just confirmed that everything you wrote in 117 was a lie.
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I can't get over Serela's avatar. It cracks me up every time I try to read his posts.
Anyway.
My gut reaction would be to sheep cases on Serela because I love easy cases and being lazy, but something is telling me that this isn't really the way to go.
##Vote Sky Paladin
Yeah, I liked my vote more when it was here so I might as well put it back.
i dont like the wording on his #71 that seems to make out that scum has to be either mitsuki or serela
This is actually a thing that I feel is being ignored by virtue of it being within a Rawr post but yeah, I dunno.
I also really dislike Sky Palladium's latest post, #121.
It's like, wow, jumping to extremes there aren't we?
Aren't you being just a little bit overzealous in your attempts to discredit Serela and direct the lynch towards him?
I dunno, just saying.
Like Sky Palladium is going on about how Serela is faking whatever he's saying but it's like, really? You're really going after people's supposed scumteams halfway into D1?
Sky Palladium feels like, to me, someone that's very excited at the prospect of an easy case. Enough so that they went just a little bit overboard on how significant some points of their case really are.
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You just assumed that I meant the names. Just now you told us that you knew the name ordering was incorrect.
You just confirmed that everything you wrote in 117 was a lie.
what the actual fuck are you going on about because I have no idea
I still haven't checked it because it still doesn't matter, but I guess it wasn't the right one? This still means literally nothing about anything.
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I thought something about Serela on the subway but now I forgot, and I feel like it was something important to say. Ugh
I see Oarfish's point on Bard here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175100.html#msg1175100) and I'm inclined to agree with it. And no, it's not contradictory with what I already pointed out. I still think Bardiche's agressiveness in this post is scummy, but I'm inclined to agree with Oarfish otherwise because Bardiche's actual content has been lackluster and he clearly hasn't pushed his case much, as his town!self would.
Defending my waifus on my next post
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I think the SkyPal cases are dumb and based on him being weird rather than him being scummy. I don't see how saying you're not 100% sure someone is scum is scummy, I'm never 100% sure about someone being scum and sometimes I say so.
I don't have any read on SkyPal myself but I get a bad feeling about how he's being cased, so I'd rather not see him lynched.
However, @Sky Paladin: which are your thoughts on the game other than "Serela is scum"?
re:SkyPal: Both your reasons are ridiculous (I maintain that I believe mitsuki's question was basically unanswerable to any significant degree and I just addressed the other) so I don't really see a reason to unvote.
Not giving my opinion on SkyPal's reasoning because honestly I already forgot about it. However, please explain how ridiculous = scummy.
The problem isn't that he's fine with the votes (that would be hypocritical of me), but that he's fine with the votes on Mitsuki AND Mitsuki's vote at the same time.
Sorry for this because I know it's awful when people question your reads without believing you're scum for it, but I don't think this makes NNR scummy. How would townreading both me and the people casing me help scum!NNR? The way he went about it wasn't flashy at all and his explanation was rather simple, so I don't see the scum intent at all, not to mention scum wouldn't want to throw random townreads.
I'm townreading NNR myself because I feel his post here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174955.html#msg1174955) was good, even if there's stuff I don't agree with, and I see why he'd be like that as town.
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I don't like SB's case on Mitsuki at all, considering pretty much every line of questioning is going to be empty at this point in the game.
What didn't you like about the initial case? I asked her what she was trying to get out of the question and when she didn't give a solid answer I figured I'd press it because it felt like scum trying to look helpful because of the lack of a goal.
That being said, I think that I misread something in one of Mitsuki's more recent posts in hindsight. I'm a little less bothered about her now, but I'd like to know who she's prioritising out of Bard/Serela now because it sounded like she was unsure earlier.
Bard, I'm not asking you to look into every early post or anything, but considering how much you joke about dayvigging Serela (and more recently in the case of Zak's lurking post, attack bad play) it's kind of strange how you let it slide. Even though there are others in the game who don't have many reads, it still feels like theirs are more substantial then a one liner
Serela still feels too ditsy to be scum (hooray meta) and I don't think his content has been scummy either way. Still not sure about Sky but I don't think going after a supposed slip like that is out of character for him, although I'd like him to give reads on people that aren't Serela and Eli to give some on players that aren't Sky.
I'm fine with a Dormio lynch because I feel like what he's done has been unmemorable but I don't really have anything to add on that front.
I feel like my scumreads are weak this game but idk.
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Cases on me:
"Bard isn't as zealous as normal!"
This is a lazy stance to take. Also an incredibly easy stance. Mostly lazy though, but also opportunistic because it's impossible to defend against. If I suddenly launched into hyper-activity, I'd probably get shit flung my way about suddenly being too aggressive or whatever.
The fact that Serela didn't do anything worth pointing out with regards to his recent posts doesn't mean that his earliest posts suddenly stopped being scummy.
I think this is an erroneous stance to take, because future posts can shed light on whether the person's acting in scum or town interests. Mitsuki's clearly not interested in actually thinking about why things are being done and is happy to just jump onto whatever is being done at face-value. Given my spat with her the last game over Sky Paladin meta, it seems wholly weird that she suddenly has no interest to look for Serela's meta or even begin thinking about whether Serela's actions make sense from a scum point of view.
Frankly, unless you intend to claim Serela was scum refuging in audacity, I don't see how you can even make a case on him and believe in it. The case on me hinges entirely on my motivation levels and is garbage as a result.
People making scumteams on Day 1. Motk pls.
I stopped wanting to dayvig Serela ever since he actually made an effort to waffle less and be more direct in his intentions. Sorry! My views of Serela change with time!
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So who is scum other than me? Got any townreads?
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Would it be easier to explain "Between Mitsuki and Bard, I don't feel either one is scummy, and their vote reasons seem okay. One of them is wrong, but I don't know which."?
Anyway I figured out that I think Bard is more wrong then Mitsuki in any case, once Bard started going into meta and using that to question Mitsuki, I don't like meta and I don't like how Bard is using it.
Anyway I'm starting to side with Sky Paladin now, he's sticking to his guns despite having been wishy-washy and now Serela is just futzing around and posting fluff without contributing.Finding votes on you weird is one thing, but spending posts making up a bunch of shit to question votes on you and then proceeding to do fuckall is another.
On the other hand Skypaladin's recent posts are also really weird. I really wish he'd be a bit more clear on what he's voting about.
I'm starting to notice a degradation in reasons to vote Skypal as well, a close eye should be kept on the newer people to his wagon (ie Dormio, Serela) so the wagon doesn't snowball for bad reasons and that scum on the wagon might be outed. That said I think Dormio's vote is lazy and uncommitted.
There's a lot here to look at now, but I'm going to go with Serela for the time being. ##Unvote ##Vote Serela
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I thought I did but it's probably not very clear now that I think about how I presented it.
The reason for my vote is because of the set of paraphrased quotes. I don't like the way people are handling Sky Paladin and I think Dormio is the worst offender.
FWIW I think Skypal justified his vote, and he's stuck to it. I would point out that he is usually bad at explaining things to other people.
This is basically how I feel word for word. Sky is notoriously bad at explaining himself in ways that people can look at and go "Oh, that's benign".
So I feel like the line of questions asking him to describe the validity of his votes compared to his "Strong scumreads" that shouldn't exist in the first place looks bad.
I feel like Dormio knows this and could have been taking advantage of this fact by asking an intentionally confusing question.
And Dormio's backpedal doesn't make me think this read is any less true because he doesn't address any part other than being factually wrong.
Also this votecount is a lot better. And I'm even already voting the person I wanted to, so it's super cool. Thanks Huhwhat~
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Yeah I have an actual reply to Bardiche too
Cases on me:
"Bard isn't as zealous as normal!"
This is a lazy stance to take. Also an incredibly easy stance. Mostly lazy though, but also opportunistic because it's impossible to defend against. If I suddenly launched into hyper-activity, I'd probably get shit flung my way about suddenly being too aggressive or whatever.
Let's just leave meta aside because I realised I don't want to bring it up your meta after all, since the game I was thinking about was painful to you.
Your reaction is still scummy because it is an overreaction and you didn't go ahead and answer with your thoughts on what SB said, you just turned it into a personal attack. I believe this is what scum would do, and if someone else had been the one to do that I'd be voting for them.
I think this is an erroneous stance to take, because future posts can shed light on whether the person's acting in scum or town interests. Mitsuki's clearly not interested in actually thinking about why things are being done and is happy to just jump onto whatever is being done at face-value.
I'm interested in Serela's new posts, and I'll comment on them when I feel there's something worth saying. If I don't find anything worth saying, I won't. What is wrong with that? Do I have to be commenting on every little thing he says just because he's my scumread?
Also I'm trying to understand people's actions and motivations so saying that I'm taking stuff at face vaule is outright untrue.
Given my spat with her the last game over Sky Paladin meta, it seems wholly weird that she suddenly has no interest to look for Serela's meta or even begin thinking about whether Serela's actions make sense from a scum point of view.
First, I think Serela is scummy regardless of meta. Second, I'm not ignoring Serela's meta and in fact I am actually looking for it right now. Please stop misreping everything I say.
It feels like Bardiche is painting me as scummy but it may be bias because it's a case on myself. I'd appreciate it if people game their thoughts on the matter.
@SB: to be honest I still don't know who is scummier. I'm inclined to believe Bardiche is but I'm not sure.
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@SB: You said that you see nothing wrong with Serela's reads, yet Serela has no original reads. How does that affect (or not) your read on him?
Also it'd be cool if you could specify which Serela meta you're townreading him for
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Hmm.
Major point number one is that I don't buy into Mitsuki's cases. Started with how the initial post-RVS case on Serela turned serious with the "I don't think town would have done this" rhetoric, which I thought was a stretch. (Serela's vote was weak, but what made it not fit in as a town vote?) Then filling up the rest with "he's had no original content still" is easy. Sure Serela hasn't been impressive so far, but I don't think Mitsuki's trip to get to that conclusion was authentic. I don't see the meat driving the suspicion. Looking at lack-of-content and hinging on an earlygame thing is surface level and easy for scum to push.
Then there's the Bard suspicion which I don't get. If there's something scummy about Bard right now, it's that he's being short on information. So SB's meta examples are about that, and some of what Mitsuki says is about that, but other times I feel like there's this attempt at turning Bard's questioning of Mitsuki into something it's not. This is harder to explain because it's "my gut says there's nothing wrong with Bard's questions, so I was bothered by Mitsuki's case". Some of the points had me going for a loop, like the one that criticized Bard for attacking SB and then admitting that SB wasn't necessarily suspicious for it. There's nothing bad about that.
Major point number two is Sky's Serela push. First there was the overreaction (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174930.html#msg1174930) to SB's question (notice the question and what Sky answered) and then this:
In my experience, scum!Serela tends to tunnel/out her buddies pretty early, so for her to claim scum is worth investigating by flip. It's certainly the best thing I've seen so far this phase.
Which for one thing is malarkey, and two is hard to reconcile with Sky's usual silliness because it's not like there weren't other things going on. For him to stick to scumteam flip magic and "aha I caught the lying scum" instead of looking at the kind of weak votes on his wagon or the entire Mitsuki / Bardiche debacle, it's way too detached. He does actually address his voters but I didn't get the feeling he was interested in voting them, just defending against weak votes on his wagon and adding the word "worrying". Instead of being proactive and focusing on other things we have this want to stick to unhelpful Serela hypotheses, which fits scum MO a lot better.
Other things I'm less sure on. I had a really bad read on Rexy's first serious post but then other posts gave me an okay feeling, so there's that. I don't feel like lynching Serela or Dormio. Slight gut.
##Vote Mitsuki
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It would be kinda nice to hear from skypal and serela their opinions on other people instead of tunneling eachother
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I forgot about this game.
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I'm at that point where I've been questioned so much about the stuff that I do when I feel that people are just misunderstanding me over and over again that I just don't care anymore. I'm going to make a summary post of my Bardiche and Serela cases to see if people finally get what I mean, and hopefully it will clarify stuff, because I'm tired of not doing my own thing to spend time replying, and I'm not doing it again.
I've been reading Serela's D1 posts in other games and I almost did that thing where I was going to go all confirmation-bias with meta yet again.
However, there are things about his attitude that are different between his town and scum games. As town, he generally feels more open to share thoughts and he doesn't seem concerned at all about his play, even if he thinks his reads are weak. As scum he seems like he is trying too hard to appear as if he doesn't care, and his tone seems more concerned and agressive.
I think Serela's play this game fits his scum play (no shit). This (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175122.html#msg1175122) is an example of a post where I feel he's been trying too hard to appear as if he doesn't care, and this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174906.html#msg1174906) is an example of a post where I think his tone seems concerned. It'd probably better to read more than just the posts that I linked because it's not a single-post issue.
inb4 people don't get what I mean again
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##vote: dormio
And refa and elison.
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@Dan: who are you townreading?
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You and neko. and sky
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Day 1.3 - Votals
Sky_Paladin (4) - Elieson, Dr Rawr, Serela, Dormio
Dormio (3) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan
Bardiche (2) - SB, Mitsuki
Mitsuki (2) - Bardiche, BT
Serela (2) - Sky_Paladin, NekoRex
NekoRex (1) - Refa
Not Voting: None!
You have 23 hours and 24 minutes remaining in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
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IT BEGINS
Why Serela is scum: the FAQ
Q: So Mitsuki, what about your initial vote (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174893.html#msg1174893)? What exactly is scummy about not having your own reads at that point of the game?
A: Right, there is nothing wrong with not having your own suspicions when you're just out of RVS, and sheeping is not a scumtell either. However, I checked Serela's post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174890.html#msg1174890) and thought about his purpose when placing that vote, and it seems scummy. When you're town what you want to do is push your reads, right? Specially if you're trying to get out of RVS. But I don't see how Serela was trying to push Dormio, to me it just felt like he just made a post and left it there.
But there's more; the content the vote was based on is so weak that I don't see why Serela would find it sheepworthy in the first place! That's why I asked him to say it in his own words, since I wanted to see his real thoughts on the matter.
So I got the facts together, and I saw that the intentions underlying his post were trying to appear as contributing, instead of pushing a case he believed in! This is why I cased him.
Q: What about all of your replies, all of them?
A: Nothing new about those, I'm just repeating what I've already said in my previous posts, wording it in different ways.
Q: What role does Serela's meta play on your case?
A: Until recently, none! I didn't know much of his meta. However, I finally took my time to check it and here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175268.html#msg1175268) are my thoughts on it. Overall, his attitude seems concerned and reactive to me, like his scum self, instead of genuinely carefree like his usual town self.
Q: What do you think about Serela's more recent posts? No real thoughts on anything else by him?
A: Now I do have thoughts on his newer posts! We're at the point where a lot of stuff has happened, yet all he's done, barring his reasoning on SkyPal, is sheeping other players. This seems scummy to me, since it's easy to find reads as town, and it's much harder to get reads as scum. Furthermore, town!Serela would have no problem in admitting he has no reads, as evidenced by his legendary sayings of "I'm not sure, everybody seems like town". To me it looks like he's forcing himself to have reads, instead of coming up with those naturally.
Regarding his reasoning on SkyPal (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175122.html#msg1175122), all I have to say is that the vote looks too reactionary, so it also seems scummy to me.
I also think Serela's been laying low and not actively trying to engage in discussion, which is pretty scummy by itself!
Q: Oh, I see! So your case is pretty much based on his attitude and the purpose of his posts, right?
A: Yeah!
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Too sleepy to content, but Mitsuki why are you spending more time casing Serela who you aren't voting instead of Bard when both are at equal votes?
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I'm making my post on Bardiche right now, just be patient
It will probably not be finished until tomorrow though
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Serela is scum because it is proven that she lied as the basis for her vote against me. When this was raised, she responded with how dare you rather than an explanation of how I was wrong, as well as continuing to backpedal away from her 117.
We also know she faked her vote on Dormio.
I think Dormio has to be scum because his case was "Sky is voting for Mitsuki" when I was voting for Serela, and when questioned, put his vote back there again without basis. Yes I am aware he referred to Rawr, but that's not his misrep, that's Rawr's.
I'm kind of interested in how both Dormio and Serela seem to want to mix Mitsuki and I up.
***
However, @Sky Paladin: which are your thoughts on the game other than "Serela is scum"?
I went to bed thinking "Obv scumteam is Serela/Dormio/Mitsuki" because Serela is scum, and she just told us that her buddies are Dormio and Mitsuki, but this morning with a coffee in hand and looking at your case on Serela I'm less certain about number 3. I was mightily annoyed that nobody considered that 117 and 120 is Serela admitting that she's scum, but w/e, we can do this the hard way too. I'll echo SB's cut though, that I'm expecting a case on Bard.
Since I'm quite sure Serela is scum now, I'm dubious of BT, who is questioning both Mitsuki and myself for our Serela-pressure. This means at some point I'll be deciding between Mitsuki/BT since I don't see them as likely scum buddies.
I generally like Refa's posting. I think this is the first time Dan's ever town read me, so that's nice. I'd like Eli to post now that her vote has been challenged and to see what reasons she gives for maintaining/abandoning it.
I need to see more of Zak/NNR/Oarfish to get an opinion although no alerts at this point.
I get where people are saying Bard is being abrasive/different but I don't see how this makes him scum. People may have some kind of meta playstyle that they often do as town/scum. I basically ignore any supposed town!meta since if you know people percieve you as town when you do xyz you will always do xyz.
If you have a scum meta, though, and you do something in that, I'm going to look in to it. Because town aren't going to fake scum!meta. If you can explain how Bard's conduct fits better to his scum meta, or better yet how Bard's content is actually scum-motivated content, I'll be interested.
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I've been too trapped in a vortex of eternal suffer to want to post for real after this morning (I'm still going to soon, aka not in this post) but why must every single game I play with SkyPaladin turn into "SkyPaladin I can't even understand anything about your case and every point is something that isn't actually happening in reality" :S Every single one. All of them. I don't even know how to respond to his case anymore. The stuff he said didn't happen.
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I'm on a phone right now so I haven't really read the thread but I did glimpse through S_P's latest post and it amused me quite a lot.
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I'll break it down for you.
When asked to explain why you voted for Dormio, you explained in three posts effectively that you weren't sheeping SB/Oarfish, but you had some totally legit reason to vote Dormio, but couldn't say what it was.
You didn't have a reason to vote Dormio. You lied about your vote.
When asked to explain why you voted for me, you said this:
It's kind of mindboggling the amount of times I see people at least semi-seriously bringing up "serela claimed scumbuddies w/skypal and mitsuki for one sentence and then retracted it as obviously being completely unserious in the next sentence" as apparently an actual reason for them to continue voting me, does it seriously bother people that much? I mean literally claiming scum is mildly annoying but in this case it was obviously taken to the nth tier as I was going along with the unserious rvs pinned scumteam and went "yeah, no." immediately.
When the only people who said anything like this was Oarfish and myself. So this isn't the basis for your vote.
You actually said in 117:
I don't actually remember if it was skypal and mitsuki but it's -so ridiculous this is being talked about so much- that I really don't even care who it was and it doesn't matter anywhere near enough to come near being worth bothering to check.
You got the 'scum team' wrong and insisted that it didn't matter. If it didn't matter, you shouldn't have brought it up. You actually said you didn't know if the names were right.
When I said that this was fake -
the fact that I don't actually go back and check who the 'confirmed scumteam' (something that could not possibly matter at all) was that I joked about being the third of, is somehow a better reason for SkyPal for stay on me
You believed I was talking about the names. I wasn't. I was saying that the basis of your vote was fake. You were the one who told us that you knew you had lied about the basis of your vote.
So this isn't why you voted me.
re:SkyPal: Both your reasons are ridiculous (I maintain that I believe mitsuki's question was basically unanswerable to any significant degree and I just addressed the other) so I don't really see a reason to unvote.
I didn't ask you to change your vote or unvote. I asked you to explain your vote.
You didn't, and can't. You lied about every one of your votes this game.
That is why you are scum.
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When asked to explain why you voted for Dormio, you explained in three posts effectively that you weren't sheeping SB/Oarfish, but you had some totally legit reason to vote Dormio, but couldn't say what it was.
wh-what
When the only people who said anything like this was Oarfish and myself.
wh-wh-what
If it didn't matter, you shouldn't have brought it up.
The point was that it didn't matter so it's ridiculous that people are acting like it is, which -is- worth bringing up, and-
You were the one who told us that you knew you had lied about the basis of your vote.
So this isn't why you voted me.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6057/7000488483_cc3339995a_z.jpg)
You didn't, and can't. You lied about every one of your votes this game.
I can't even, I have lost my ability to even, I will see you all later when I make an actual post but oh my god
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If you have time to post gifs, you have time to explain your votes.
If you have time to post paragraphs of random babble, you have time to explain your votes.
If you have time to post three times on one page how you don't understand what other people are saying, you have time to explain your votes.
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Okay I made a more proper response to SkyPal.
When asked to explain why you voted for Dormio, you explained in three posts effectively that you weren't sheeping SB/Oarfish, but you had some totally legit reason to vote Dormio, but couldn't say what it was.
You didn't have a reason to vote Dormio. You lied about your vote.
I'm not sure how it's possible to misconstrue such small and concise posts this heavily, but actually, I said the exact opposite. I quoted the exact parts of them that I was sheeping and said I couldn't answer Mitsuki's question via adding my own words, because there was literally nothing I could possibly add to such clear-cut and shallow reasons as I was using in the case- aka, that there was absolutely nothing past SB/O4rfish's reasons.
When asked to explain why you voted for me, you said this:
When the only people who said anything like this was Oarfish and myself. So this isn't the basis for your vote.
First, that quote wasn't a response to why I was voting for you. Second, if you're one of those people HOW CAN IT NOT BE PART OF THE VOTE AAAAAAAAAAA
Third I already explained in the post I voted you that I agreed with the overjustifaction thing against you. Now, of course, I have other more worthy reasons to vote you. However... well, you go off the deep end like this as town on a regular basis, so it's not that unbelievable from town!paladin. :T Still, you probably don't stop doing it as scum? Urgh, I can't excuse this just because of meta.
You actually said in 117:
You got the 'scum team' wrong and insisted that it didn't matter. If it didn't matter, you shouldn't have brought it up.
Already covered in previous post, but I figure I should still mention such since the other post was mostly "omg whyyyy" and not an actual rebuttal, don't want that part getting lost
You believed I was talking about the names. I wasn't. I was saying that the basis of your vote was fake. You were the one who told us that you knew you had lied about the basis of your vote.
You were so incredibly vague and unclear that I couldn't tell. The only logical conclusion was that you meant because I got something wrong? What you're doing now isn't very logical so I'm not entirely wrong there :S
So this isn't why you voted me.
I... really don't know how you came to this conclusion
You lied about every one of your votes this game.
and, in ending, I am unable to even
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I'm like, this close to replacing out because SkyPaladin is ridiculously frustrating to deal with and my life is already being horrible right now apart from mafia. (That occured after I /in'd and hasn't stopped getting worse.) The motivation to post in mafia is sapped when I have a lunatic who bends everything to mean the opposite and comes up with the craziest conspiracy theories against me.
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Every time I read one of his posts I feel obligated to respond because it's so far from reality, and also about me, but it also makes me want even less to bother with all the other parts of the game I haven't gotten around to yet.
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You were so incredibly vague and unclear that I couldn't tell. The only logical conclusion was that you meant because I got something wrong?
That was the point.
You assumed that I was calling you out for whatever thing you had lied about and responded in that way.
If you were town who hadn't told a lie then you would have, should have, must have said, "I don't understand why you are saying this is fake, Sky. Everything I wrote is true" or at the very least a request to clarify.
But you didn't! Because you knew that something you had written was a lie and were afraid that lie had been caught, so you went straight to the Sky!derp/cover with dirt strategy.
All I ever asked was for you to explain your vote. You still can't/won't do it.
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I assumed the fake part meant. YOU KNOW. THE THING I ACTIVELY SAID I HADN'T CHECKED SO IT MIGHT BE WRONG. SO IT REALISTICALLY WAS WRONG. AND THEREFORE POSSIBLY A SIGN OF FAKENESS? THIS IS NOT A LARGE STRETCH.
I don't even know how that being a lie somehow even makes me scummy! I lied about not remembering who the rvs scumbuddy team was?? So that makes me scum???
All I ever asked was for you to explain your vote. You still can't/won't do it.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I DIDN'T AAAAAAAAAAA
I
I should just stop caring
I should just stop responding to Sky on the basis that I don't need to actually worry about anyone else actually being swayed to vote me from what he's saying, and on the basis that I already tried to explain why what he said isn't what happened but it didn't help
then I can function
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Mfw S_P out selery's selery.
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I'm not really interested in why you think my vote is terrible. I'm interested in why you think your vote is good, because from my perspective, it seems that you voted me because I was voting you, then lied about the motivation afterwards.
Perhaps you can start with who you think is scum other than me.
Dormio; you too. You got Mitsuki/Sky mixed up and voted me. When it was pointed out you had us mixed up, you unvoted and didn't suddenly vote Mitsuki, but re-voted me for no reason given.
Can you clarify?
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Mfw S_P out selery's selery.
I'm just sitting here so very very confused as he accuses me of horrible things that don't make any sense ;_;
it's almost bedtime and I still haven't even gotten around to doing any of the -other- mafia things I'm supposed to do
@SkyPaladin I have already told you several times and I just don't care anymore, you can vote me all you want your pressure will no longer phase me >:T
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you can vote me all you want your pressure will no longer phase me >:T
this is a lie but I'm going to pretend it isn't
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but re-voted me for no reason given.
lol.
I guess I'll make a post later when I get home.
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Reading other parts of mafia because I can't sleep until I do. I'm not touching "Bard's emotions suggest he's scum" with a 10 foot pole. Way too meta and even moreso, way too unreliable. Mitsuki isn't voting Bard specifically for this but I still don't really agree with her vote. Coupled with already having bad gut sensations about her, well, yeah. :T
Speaking of people who raised my eyebrows and continue to do so, O4rfish. Post #100. Considering the quote comes right after saying he finds Bard suspicious, are you saying that's a reason why? :S What. Not sure how to feel about his later post where he thinks SkyP is good for sticking to his case but that's neither here nor there I guess. Overall though, O4rfish feels kinda... spectatory, and the stuff he says that isn't tends to be the things that make me go "...huh?".
Rawr, meanwhile, slips in with a precision vote and slips back out.
BT makes me want to sheep everything he says since it's stuff on people I had bad gut feelings about, except he actually makes cool logical arguments about it that I just don't have the mental fortitude to come anywhere near being able to do right now. And that's not just because of SkyPal, I'm not blaming -everything- on him. :T
All those people I'd be okay with voting, although Rawr is lower on the totem pole because d1 lurking isn't a good lynch point. I'm still going to be voting SkyPal though. He's the biggest wagon, too, so I have even less reason to want to get off. :T I WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.
Everyone else is somewhere between null (or at least "the usual" in Dan's case) and "well they look pretty fine right now".
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I'm losing confidence in Skypal again because his vote is failing to make sense again.
Perhaps you can start with who you think is scum other than me.
the same applies to you, Skypal
but I'm happy you guys are at least not hyper-tunneling.
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For NNR re: Who else is scum - here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175315.html#msg1175315).
I initially voted Serela because she claimed scumbuddies with Dormio/Mitsuki, and after our last game of seeing CF7 claim scumbuddies and having him flip scum...that was the basis of my vote.
I became further suspicious when, after questioning by Mitsuki, Serela outlined her reason for voting Dormio: No reason.
I became further alarmed when Serela counter-voted me, and when asked: No reason. She later retro-actively applied that my reason for voting her was invalid and therefore that justified her vote. I've since demonstrated that Serela knowingly lied when she attempted to undo my vote. At this point my vote solidified to Totes Scum and Serela has degenerated into a mess of denial and backpedalling, although she has had one good content post just before yours.
The phase is rapidly winding down though and with the wagons the way they are, I'm strongly considering shifting to my other Totes Scum of Dormio.
I don't excuse Dormio confusing me with Mitsuki, apparently intending to vote me, then voting me without a reason. Also, a scum!flip of Dormio would greatly improve the chances of scum!Serela being done, too.
I could ultimately accept a story of a panicked Serela saying random gibberish in a desperate bid to admit she has a thought of her own and that she totally wasn't sheeping others/OMGUS voting. Also in my experience she tends to OMGUS and counterattack whoever votes her, so let's see what happens if I change my vote.
##unvote
##vote Dormio
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I like how you keep going "Dormio is voting me for no reason look at how scummy he is he has no reason to vote me" like you're ignoring that #122 is a thing that exists.
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Cool, I am glad you are at least still making an effort to make sense, Skypal, I was worried for a moment that you and Serela had devolved into only posting incomprehensible gibberish.
The Dormio vote is fair as well, Dormio's 122 is bad and feels lazy. Then again at this point I don't blame anyone who votes Sky or Serela just because both are filling the game with ridiculous posts.
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I am a cold emotionless robot. That's why nobody gets me and I can never explain myself clearly.
Dormio, your 122 contradicts your 103, in that you voted me because I didn't apply enough pressure to Serela (You init voted me because you believed I should have voted Serela and mistakenly believed I hadn't) and then in 122 you vote me because I voted Serela. Not good.
You apparently decided to vote me first and then went looking for a reason after the fact. You found Rawr's little misrep.
It's a misrep because Rawr's angling that I'm saying the lynch had to be between Mitsuki/Serela. What I said was:
I don't believe 100% Serela is scum. I do see Mitsuki driving activity and Serela backing away from it. If I had to pick right now between who I'd keep in the game, I'd take Mitsuki.
I didn't equate either of them to be definitely scum at that point in time, and this is clear from viewing the full post in context.
You DID read the post that Rawr was quoting from, right?
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its not misrep you actually did say you thought one or the other was scum. if you think its misrep why would you even bother saying "If I had to pick right now between who I'd keep in the game"
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I didn't actually say one of them was scum and that we should lynch between them. It's right there in the quote, right above your post.
I said that one of them (Mitsuki) was driving activity and creating content. The other one (Serela) was attempting to undo what little they had done and bringing nothing new to the table.
Who would you rather keep in the game?
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I've since demonstrated that Serela knowingly lied when she attempted to undo my vote.
I somehow missed this demonstration having any semblance of being true.
I am a cold emotionless robot. That's why nobody gets me and I can never explain myself clearly.
No one understands you because you are regrettably insane. I don't think it's getting through to you that this entire shtick of people incriminating themselves isn't working out as an angle, because you often misunderstand people. Maybe because you're a cold and emotionless robot that you have issues connecting with people, or maybe you've issues deeper than that. Whatever the case, you grossly misread stuff and present walls upon walls based on that.
All those people I'd be okay with voting, although Rawr is lower on the totem pole because d1 lurking isn't a good lynch point
Day 1 is a great time to lynch lurkers let me demonstrate.
##Unvote
##Vote: Rawr
"But Bard, what about Mitsuki?"
Gut town read.
"Are you seriously scumreading Rawr?"
No.
##Unvote
##Vote: O4rfish
Confident here though, don't like the cheerlead here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175100.html#msg1175100). Don't like this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175095.html#msg1175095) because of the first line, which also seems like an invitation for everyone else to look there and find something without making his own hands dirty. This too is a cheerlead (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175059.html#msg1175059). O4rfish says I'm suspiciously tolerant, likens me to a bloodhound (el oh el), but never makes his hands dirty by submitting that I'm scummy or not. He's playing it safe by sticking on a lurker vote at the start of the game and delivering short one-liners to cheerlead people, but unfortunately, like all cheerleaders, he needs to get out.
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Care to provide your definition of cheerleading, and the reason why it is scummy?
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Guess what, I don't like my Serela and Bard reads anymore. lol
I'm ok with their more recent posts, specially Bard's. Well, still waiting to see more from them and to see what I think when I reread, but yeah
Also I think I'd lynch SkyPal, Dormio or Oarfish. I haven't checked properly yet but: SkyPal seems too frustrated by his Serela read and he's sort of buddying me in spite of saying I could be scum, Dormio seems to be painting SkyPal as scummy and he doesn't seem to care about the game, Oarfish seems to be painting people as scummy in this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175095.html#msg1175095) post for no good reason and I don't like the tone of his posts upon closer examination.
##unvote
##vote: Oarfish I prefer this. Oarfish > Dormio > SkyPal
I'm not sure I will be able to post more for a while (uni + meeting people), but I'll be back for before the deadline
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also @SB and Refa: we've been playing EM for an hour and you guys have been around SF mafia Skypechat for long and yet you're doing nothing? No way, step it up
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YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MOM YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO
(TL's note: YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MOM YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO means OK fine, unless I fall asleep why am I up this late/early again)
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Day 1.4 - Votals
Sky_Paladin (4) - Elieson, Dr Rawr, Serela, Dormio
Dormio (4) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan, Sky_Paladin
O4rfish (2) - Bardiche, Mitsuki
Bardiche (1) - SB
Mitsuki (1) - BT
Serela (1) - NekoRex
NekoRex (1) - Refa
Not Voting: None!
You have 10 hours~ remaining in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
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Zakeri is the only person on the Dormio wagon that doesn't make me concerned about it, and even then he's just a null read. I mean, I didn't want Dormio lynched anyway, but the wagon's composition makes me uneasy. :T I can see why people are voting Dormio and they're not wrong (from what I remember), but... >.>
I'm willing to support to emerging O4rfish wagon (as implied earlier when I said I had interest in voting o4rfish) but I'm not sure whether or not I'd prefer it over SkyPal. I'm not going to be gone near deadline or anything, so I guess I'll see if it goes somewhere.
Because, yeah, it's that time of day, deadline in 10 hours so consolidation ho~
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I've just realised that I'm ok with the 3 main wagons. lol
We're still a lot of votes short and from what I've read I'd still rather lynch Oarfish so people should give their opinions on the wagons and move their votes.
Also I'd rather not have to turbo anyone this time around
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Why are you saying I didn't have strong feelings towards Serela's new posts? Actually, what do you mean by that?
The fact that Serela didn't do anything worth pointing out with regards to his recent posts doesn't mean that his earliest posts suddenly stopped being scummy.
Exactly what I said. I don't see how you couldn't get any reads from her later posts (I'm not saying that you should agree with my townread on her but her later content was all more telling than her earlier content), and I don't like how it was based primarily on her earlier posts (this wouldn't bother me so much if her earlier posts were really scummy, which I'm just not seeing).
Sorry for this because I know it's awful when people question your reads without believing you're scum for it, but I don't think this makes NNR scummy. How would townreading both me and the people casing me help scum!NNR? The way he went about it wasn't flashy at all and his explanation was rather simple, so I don't see the scum intent at all, not to mention scum wouldn't want to throw random townreads.
I'm townreading NNR myself because I feel his post here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174955.html#msg1174955) was good, even if there's stuff I don't agree with, and I see why he'd be like that as town.
No worries, people questioning my reads helps me reevaluate them in case I missed something on my first go around. He wasn't townreading you and the people casing you, just saying that he was fine with your vote and the cases on you (him townreading both sides wouldn't bother me at all BTW). It's scummy because scum wants to appear that they're contributing and ~not biased~ without drawing attention to themselves. Commenting on both sides without having a definite opinion on either is pretty much that (it's something I did a lot as scum until I get caught on it...and then vigged, good times).
Would it be easier to explain "Between Mitsuki and Bard, I don't feel either one is scummy, and their vote reasons seem okay. One of them is wrong, but I don't know which."?
Anyway I figured out that I think Bard is more wrong then Mitsuki in any case, once Bard started going into meta and using that to question Mitsuki, I don't like meta and I don't like how Bard is using it.
...Did I just waste my time writing a paragraph explaining myself only for you to refute it (this wouldn't be bad if your explanation was bad, but it's not)? I hate myself, dropping this point.
I thought I did but it's probably not very clear now that I think about how I presented it.
The reason for my vote is because of the set of paraphrased quotes. I don't like the way people are handling Sky Paladin and I think Dormio is the worst offender.
Thanks! I can get where you're coming from now, even if I don't feel as strongly about it as you do (my issues with Dormio are less so his Sky Paladin case and more so that he's been kind of there in the background, which isn't a good enough basis for a scumread for me...well, at least on Day 1).
Honestly, I have a hard enough time reading people tunneling in on each other (not to mention that it drains my motivation to post like nothing else, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one here), let alone people whom I've barely ever played with before, so I'm not even going to try. My general thoughts are that town are more likely to tunnel on each other (there are scenarios where scum would tunnel, but D1 with a bunch of vanilla townies is not one of them) than scum because town has this CONVICTION that scum blows at faking, which makes me feel less sure about my SkyPal scumread (which was mostly a sheep off of Elieson, but I'm not comfortable sheeping him anymore considering he dropped off the face of the game). Like, the actual reasoning is still valid (and Dormio brought up some good points in his actual vote of SP), but meh...just not feeling it. Well, not as valid actually because his reads post was legit. It's hard to explain what you like about peoples' reads posts without being overly verbose, so let's just say that it came across as genuine and leave it at that.
I...wouldn't be opposed to a Dormio lynch because he hasn't really done anything that gives me a strong read on him despite him doing things (this is weird because he was more memorable in CYOUR), but I'd much rather lynch someone who I'm actually scumreading then just sort of meh on. Please understand.
Mreh, I can't see Mitsuki sticking so hard to her Serela/Bard suspicions (yeah, I know that she didn't in her latest posts, but that doesn't actually refute the point that I'm making here) and making super detailed explanations for them as scum (like, either one of those individually would be believable enough, but not BOTH at the same time). This kind of sucks though because I've been sort of dismissing Serela's later posts because of my scumread on Mitsuki, and now I have to go and analyze them again...Blargh.
In addition to what I already said about Oarfish, Bard's case is also completely sheepable (basically tied up all of the issues I already had with the slot into one case haha).
##Unvote
##Vote: Oarfish
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PS I should be on for phase end. Probably, no promises though depending on exactly how tired I am. Fuck my sleep schedule.
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I was mightily annoyed that nobody considered that 117 and 120 is Serela admitting that she's scum, but w/e, we can do this the hard way too. I'll echo SB's cut though, that I'm expecting a case on Bard.
I'm townreading SkyPal now because of this by the way, looks genuine
(still rereading)
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The Oarfish wagon is kind of cool I guess.
But you know what's even cooler? Lynching Dormio.
I'm not making any judgement calls if you want to stay on Oarfish's wagon though.
I'm just saying that if you want to look really cool, here's a thing.
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I'll be here for phase end but I'm done for today. I'm not super keen on a new wagon at deadline tbh particularly as I haven't had any real interactions with Oarfish and no time to review his ISO.
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As in I'm going to sleep. Zzzzz will I dream of electronic Bard's.
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HOLY CRAP PHASE IS ALMOST OVER I'M HERE I PROMISE
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If you're going to sheep Bard's case on me, please explain it to me so I can rebut it.
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also @SB and Refa: we've been playing EM for an hour and you guys have been around SF mafia Skypechat for long and yet you're doing nothing? No way, step it up
You underestimate my ability to be lazy.
Reading.
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Huh, phase ends in the morning tomorrow and I need to go out.
I guess I could sheep the O4rfish case, but I think I'd rather see Sky Palladium lynched.
Like I said earlier, I think that Sky Palladium was a little too overexcited about his Serela case and he latched onto some random bs that he came up with and rolled with it.
It's just that Sky Palladium's train of thought is super special and I guess it seemed like a slam dunk case to him even though it just looks stupid to me.
Whatever.
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I'm townreading SkyPal now because of this by the way, looks genuine
Really begrudgingly admitting this, but dear god it's hard to not want to lynch SkyPal right now.
##Unvote ##Vote O4rfish
FINE
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As I said before, SkyPal doing this as town is pretty normal. I just really don't want to believe. ;_;
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I don't really see what's so fishy about fish. Anybody wanna tl;dr me because i'm not feeling it mr krabs
I would feel more comfortable with a SkyPaladin lynch because robots have no souls and are therefore unable to be gay and cannot be allowed to participate in mafia his casing->bickering towards selery looks rather forced. Dormio, I would consolidate on, but i don't think we'd get that much in terms of associative reads regarding dormio's wagon and such if he was lynched (he? she? idk anything anymore).
-Back to a reply to SkyPaladin's #101: The fact is that you had no reason to say "i'm not 100% sure X is scum". It's a statement that I interpret at being /overly cautious/. You can argue until you're blue in the face that what you said is just how you felt, but that doesn't change the fact that you said something as if you were backed up against a wall in a panic, when town should have no reason to behave in such a manner, especially in early game. Also your #Meta against Selery is a crappy foundation for a case backtrack and an even crappier foundation for a day 1 scumread. you've given reasons, which automatically makes it not RVS.
Who's BT again? If all else fails I'd %%Vote this chump for his lame attempt at contribution which amounted to sheeping and nothing else
Rawr's #96 seems really disconnected from the game, reads as active lurking
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Care to provide your definition of cheerleading, and the reason why it is scummy?
Cheerleading is what it says on the tin. If you're voicing tacit support for something without getting your fingers dirty ("Bard is suspiciously tolerant", and then leave it at that, for example!), but also first line here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175095.html#msg1175095). Noting a specific behaviour but attaching no conclusion to it is providing for those who want to vote Dormio/Serela without doing anything yourself. Goading, perhaps?
It's scummy because you're manipulating people while keeping a low profile; scum like it when town make a lot of noise and detract from them. You've got presence, but it's forgetful and most of it is tiny jabs here and there without any conviction nor strength.
Like I said earlier, I think that Sky Palladium was a little too overexcited about his Serela case and he latched onto some random bs that he came up with and rolled with it.
It's just that Sky Palladium's train of thought is super special and I guess it seemed like a slam dunk case to him even though it just looks stupid to me.
I am now perfectly willing to lynch Dormio.
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Cases on me:
"Bard isn't as zealous as normal!"
This is a lazy stance to take. Also an incredibly easy stance. Mostly lazy though, but also opportunistic because it's impossible to defend against. If I suddenly launched into hyper-activity, I'd probably get shit flung my way about suddenly being too aggressive or whatever.
This is only part of the case, but at the same time the response is probably fair. Also the point you made about Serela's refuge in audacity is pretty solid too.
@SB: You said that you see nothing wrong with Serela's reads, yet Serela has no original reads. How does that affect (or not) your read on him?
Also it'd be cool if you could specify which Serela meta you're townreading him for
It doesn't because it's Day 1. I don't think Serela is incapable of bullshitting something (even if it's a weak read) so if he's scum I feel like he's just trying to replicate his town play atm instead of pushing scum's agenda. I also feel like his rage reaction to Sky is fairly similar to how I felt in the mafiascum game so uh... yeah.
Dan forgetting about the game probably means he's town, although reasons for uh... any of his reads would be helpful. I'm also starting to lean town on Sky as of #144 even though it feels like he's operating using moon logic as usual. NNR kind of reads like apathetic scum but I'm not sure yet.
##Unvote
##Vote: Dormio
I don't feel like Dormio's really doing anything beyond pushing an easy case on Sky Paladin. It doesn't even feel like he's adding anything to it from earlier in the day either, so he's just restating his old content and not really making an attempt to find out anything new.
I'm so-so on the Oarfish wagon because if feels like does this stuff every game and gut townread is still there. I'd lynch him before Sky though.
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I invite people to read the previous posts and draw their own conclusions. This is usually because I see something as intriguing, but am not entirely sure of what it means.
Would you prefer I refer to previous action and tell you which conclusion to make? That seems wrong.
Declaring yourself amenable to someone's lynch without voting them, how is that different from cheerleading?
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Bard's new avatar makes me think that he's crying every time he writes a mafia post.
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@Bard; Are you basing your dormio vote on what you think is a bus? I'm not following your
lack of logic here at all just so you know
Also @Bard; Fish is voting for dormio. You're either missing something here or prioritizing your case here kinda weirdish
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ffs bard just changed his avatar now it's some dumb league thing (as opposed to a cool league thing)
@O4rfish; since you're a leading wagon, can you give a simple list of your top three scumreads and a simple reason as to why?
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Bard's new avatar makes me think that he's crying every time he writes a mafia post.
In the interest of people not assuming I'm some jerk, I have thus changed my avatar to something that better represents my feelings.
I invite people to read the previous posts and draw their own conclusions. This is usually because I see something as intriguing, but am not entirely sure of what it means.
Would you prefer I refer to previous action and tell you which conclusion to make? That seems wrong.
Declaring yourself amenable to someone's lynch without voting them, how is that different from cheerleading?
Refer to previous actions, and then tell us your conclusions. We're not playing this game so someone can comment from the sidelanes as if they're some spectator.
It's different because I am very solidly and very loudly voicing my support, which is different from commenting, "Bard is suspiciously tolerant" but not making clear whether you think I'm scummy or not, and whether there's grounds for voting me. "Suspiciously tolerant" does not necessarily equal "scum".
@Bard; Are you basing your dormio vote on what you think is a bus? I'm not following your lack of logic here at all just so you know
Also @Bard; Fish is voting for dormio. You're either missing something here or prioritizing your case here kinda weirdish
I don't have a Dormio vote, and it's nothing to do with a bus. It's to do with a shitty case.
I don't understand why my priorities are wrong, did O4rfish already flip scum?
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Also @Bard; Fish is voting for dormio.
I always get confused when people are like "But the person you're voting is also voting the other person you'd like to vote." as if that actually means something. I mean, I see this get brought up a lot :S
(if you actually meant this has to do with bard's case against o4rfish though that's different)
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I am now perfectly willing to lynch Dormio.
This is what I was referring to, your potential dormio vote, mybad. But to be sure I understand, you're basing your vote on what you think is the dismissal of an "eh" case->becoming what appears to be a townread?
Noting a specific behaviour but attaching no conclusion to it is providing for those who want to vote Dormio/Serela without doing anything yourself.
if he's attaching no conclusion, why did he vote for, and maintain his vote, on dormio?
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(if you actually meant this has to do with bard's case against o4rfish though that's different)
No i literally mean "you're calling somebody out for just making jabs and not following through with any form of conviction; i'll just ignore that you're currently actually voting for the person you're making what i feel is a weak case at."
Like, this is what i see bard's case against o4rfish as.
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if he's attaching no conclusion, why did he vote for, and maintain his vote, on dormio?
Because this is his vote on Dormio (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174861.html#msg1174861). Now for a mental exercise, you go through his posts and tell me why he's voting for Dormio and maintaining his vote. Here's a hint: Yknow what's scummy to me? Claiming scum, then disappearing! Everyone feel free to vote Dormio along with me.
That's it. RVS shenanigans and no further attempt to say anything about anything Dormio's posted afterwards, or much of an opinion on anyone else. Did he attach a conclusion to noting both Dormio and Serela claimed scum? No, he noted they both did x, but never said why Dormio is worse than Serela, or what he thinks of Serela for (allegedly) doing it.
But to be sure I understand, you're basing your vote on what you think is the dismissal of an "eh" case->becoming what appears to be a townread?
What? You have to rephrase this, I don't understand what you're saying. Dormio's saying he'd rather lynch Sky Pal over O4rfish, that's fine. Then he describes regular Sky Paladin actions which are just stupid, but not necessarily scummy. He's voting Sky Paladin for being Sky Paladin, which is about as criminal as stealing candy from a baby. And about as easy, too.
I don't understand why you think my beef with O4rfish is weak. He doesn't even have a Dormio case.
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It's a statement that I interpret at being /overly cautious/
I just want to snipe at this: I think this is a hilarious argument. Sky Paladin has made a lot of noise and everyone's looked at him, and you accuse him of being overly cautious when he airs what everyone else is thinking? No one's 100% convinced they've got their vote on scum. Pretending we are is part of the game, but Sky Paladin's Mafia MMR is like, 500. You're putting a lot of weight on a statement that isn't even a tell at all.
You're portraying a reality where Scum Paladin makes a lot of noise by zealously jumping onto Serela and arguing a lot, and then overly cautiously clarifies he's not 100% convinced. Now, if you say Sky Paladin is backpedalling in a scummy way (note: Townies can wake up with the epiphany that they were wrong), I'll be happy to hear arguments... But at this juncture, if you're going to claim "weak case" in others as significant, you're going to have to put more effort and show me why Sky Paladin is indubitably scum, or more scummy than everyone else.
How does his bickering "seem forced"? Perhaps you can Press a specific statement and show the rest of the gallery what about Sky Paladin's testimony is bogus.
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Dormio is scummy because he hasn't done anything productive all game except revote Skypal for being "just a little bit overzealous" in his case against Serela.
Bard, if you want to vote someone who is doing the active lurking thing, switch your vote.
BT usually has more than this. The game I remember him lurking a ton was Awareness of Color Mafia, in which he was scum.
I don't really have a third strong scumread. My townreads are pretty much the first four players, and in pretty much that order.
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Man, I know I was voting o4rfish for being kinda spectatory/cruisey, but I didn't have the brainpower left last night to actually ISO him and realize how bad it is; which after Bard's post just now, I did. His two comments on Bard being "suspiciously tolerant", mentioning Dormio claiming scum, and saying that "FWIW I think Skypal justified his vote, and he's stuck to it" pretty much constitutes the entirety of his presence in this game.
Suddenly I'm getting more invested with desire for this lynch. Cut by two more posts.
Wait, O4rfish is accusing BT of lurking? He hasn't made a large amount of posts, but the ones he has made are some of the best things in the game.
Whilst I guess saying that you're continuing to vote Dormio because he never got better is sort of understandable, it's not very convincing when you'd never actually commented on or pressed him after he came back making real posts until just now. Just because someone's newer posts don't look good doesn't mean it backs up your vote if you never say anything about it.
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Relooked through O4rfish's posts and he never mentions Dormio after Dormio comes back making posts, other than a side comment that Dormio's vote is on SkyPaladin along with mine. That's... not... I mean, there's several things I could say about that, but I can't figure out how to word them right now. :T
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Dormio is scummy because he hasn't done anything productive all game
How does this not apply to you?
"Don't look at me look at Dormio instead!" is something I regard as a scummy defence, by the way. Trying to cover up your own conduct by making someone else out as a worse offender is pretty bad. I think you're plenty active lurking yourself, so some time in the spotlight will do you good.
If I'm lynching Dormio, it won't be for what he hasn't done, but for what he has done. Which is vote Sky Paladin over being Sky Paladin, and looking for bad play rather than scummy play.
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I guess what I'm trying to say here is when the person you're voting for not being around comes back and starts making posts, the last thing that should happen is you ignoring their posts and leaving your vote on them whilst you continue to post about other things. Especially when it turns out, oh, you think their new posts are scummy? Why didn't you ever say that? Pressure and cases are how you get lynches, not apathetically sitting on them whilst they do things you think are scummy but never talk about.
You brought it up now, but only because there's a growing wagon on you over it.
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Holy shit we've come a long way when Serela starts telling people how to use votes and is making lucid cases.
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serela which of your scumbuddies just authored your latest post
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;_;
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In this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175059.html#msg1175059) I was trying to prod Bard into more direct action, while also disagreeing with Mitsuki's case on him. On rereading his earlier posts, it seems like he was doing well enough as it was.
Today's experiment ... failed.
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man I was really looking forward to finally rolling scum. At least my streak is still alive.
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Because this is his vote on Dormio (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174861.html#msg1174861). Now for a mental exercise, you go through his posts and tell me why he's voting for Dormio and maintaining his vote. Here's a hint:
That's it. RVS shenanigans and no further attempt to say anything about anything Dormio's posted afterwards, or much of an opinion on anyone else. Did he attach a conclusion to noting both Dormio and Serela claimed scum? No, he noted they both did x, but never said why Dormio is worse than Serela, or what he thinks of Serela for (allegedly) doing it.
I'll bend at this, i forgot he was just holding an RVS vote. honestly i didn't even re-check
What? You have to rephrase this, I don't understand what you're saying. Dormio's saying he'd rather lynch Sky Pal over O4rfish, that's fine. Then he describes regular Sky Paladin actions which are just stupid, but not necessarily scummy. He's voting Sky Paladin for being Sky Paladin, which is about as criminal as stealing candy from a baby. And about as easy, too.
this is the tl;dr i was asking for earlier, and ngl it makes far more sense than what i was thinking
I don't understand why you think my beef with O4rfish is weak. He doesn't even have a Dormio case.
Addressed in first response
I just want to snipe at this: I think this is a hilarious argument. Sky Paladin has made a lot of noise and everyone's looked at him, and you accuse him of being overly cautious when he airs what everyone else is thinking? No one's 100% convinced they've got their vote on scum. Pretending we are is part of the game, but Sky Paladin's Mafia MMR is like, 500. You're putting a lot of weight on a statement that isn't even a tell at all.
I don't care if he types up a fourteen page thesis as to why he thinks somebody is scum, or puts out a fourteen word sentence that explains his case. if he says something suspicious, it's suspicious. You can be careful about how you phrase things, and you can be careful about talking too much. I think he was being careful about how he phrased his justification.
For a comparison, let me offer this analogy. You and your brother, the most popular and sociable guys around, are playing baseball in the neighborhood sandlot and you hit a homerun that goes through somebody's window, breaking it. Now, you can be noisy and obnoxious or you could be shy and subverted, but when you jump out and say "I didn't do it" when somebody asks "do you know what happened to Mr Johnson's window?, rather than saying something like "I didn't see" or "I'm not sure", something just seems off.
This is basically how I'm interpreting skypaladin's "not 100% sure" line. So yes, I am putting a lot of weight on what I believe to be a slip, because i believe it's a slip. I don't know much about Skypaladin and I'm not gonna be assed to research his past seven games; what i see here is what i see
You're portraying a reality where Scum Paladin makes a lot of noise by zealously jumping onto Serela and arguing a lot, and then overly cautiously clarifies he's not 100% convinced. Now, if you say Sky Paladin is backpedalling in a scummy way (note: Townies can wake up with the epiphany that they were wrong), I'll be happy to hear arguments... But at this juncture, if you're going to claim "weak case" in others as significant, you're going to have to put more effort and show me why Sky Paladin is indubitably scum, or more scummy than everyone else.
How does his bickering "seem forced"? Perhaps you can Press a specific statement and show the rest of the gallery what about Sky Paladin's testimony is bogus.
Skypaladin's posts:
#118 looks like a fireprod test rather than anything else
#121 looks like a straw-grasp, because serela responded to the "fake" comment with what he assumed was directed at the only part of his post that actually made any sense and wasn't just filler fluff
#144's first third touches on the 118->121 test, which honestly reads as one of those "damned if you do damned if you don't" tests that Mitsuki pulled earlier in the game in which no matter what the response was, skypaladin would've just pulled the opposite reason out and used it against serela. I can't say this is a fact since what happened has already happened, but my gut is telling me that this was a test with intention of response and that no amount of even passable logic would've changed Skypaladin's pov towards Serela, which just ain't right yo
--cut--
nevermind the 6 posts don't change much
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What? :S I mean if I read into it really hard I guess I can kind of see where that's coming from, but that's the most passive and ineffective attempt to try to do that I've ever heard of. It doesn't look anything like a disagreement with Mitsuki's case because it never brings up Mitsuki, or a case, or even really the subject matter, and... I'm not sure how that's supposed to lead into Bard being direct? It's like writing a really polite complaint letter that tones everything down for politeness to a degree where the point of the letter itself is lost
man I was really looking forward to finally rolling scum. At least my streak is still alive.
is this cut o4rfish claiming scum? (the other cut is too long I'm just posting this now.)
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since I got cut I probably should have put somewhere in the first part of that post that I was still talking to o4rfish
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I think we have about 5 hours left to deadline? More consolidating votes would be nice! Also I got called in to work so I'll be leaving in 3.5 hours and won't be present for deadline.
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Can we get some votals up in this game?
I'll be here for phase end but I'm done for today. I'm not super keen on a new wagon at deadline tbh particularly as I haven't had any real interactions with Oarfish and no time to review his ISO.
Wait, you can do ISOs? How?
Dormio, I would consolidate on, but i don't think we'd get that much in terms of associative reads regarding dormio's wagon and such if he was lynched (he? she? idk anything anymore).
Why would you consolidate on Dormio? "Wow, this dude is tunneling the same dude that I'm tunneling, ergo scum". Ugh, this like really bothers me but I can't explain why. Like, if you're so sure that Sky Paladin scumslipped, it makes absolutely no sense. Do you think that Dormio is bussing D1? Wow, he must really not like Sky Paladin then.
man I was really looking forward to finally rolling scum. At least my streak is still alive.
If you're going to scum claim, can you be a little more obvious about it (look, you can even WIFOM all you want after you do it, perfect deal right)? Please?
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Wait, you can do ISOs? How?
go to their profile page, click on profile info near the top, and then show posts
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@Refa I'm saying i would consolidate on dormio just to get a lynch if people are against a skypaladin lynch that strongly because despite reading skypaladin as scum i'm not really overly townreading dormio
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>.> Did everyone die, deadline is getting progressively scarier and I don't think anyone is even -close- to being lynched
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Are We Even Lynching Today? - Votals
Sky_Paladin (4) - Elieson, Dr Rawr, Dormio
Dormio (5) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan, Sky_Paladin, SB
O4rfish (4) - Bardiche, Mitsuki, Refa, Serela
Bardiche (0) -
Mitsuki (1) - BT
Serela (1) - NekoRex
NekoRex (0) -
Not Voting: None!
You have LESS THAN 3 HOURS remaining in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
You guys are gonna force me to vote Dormio aren't you? >:T
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yes that says 4 votes on skyp when he only has 3, I noticed, it's too late now >:C
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I'm kind of here but at the same time I'm not since I need to go out really soon, even though it's 5:30am.
##Unvote
##Vote O4rfish
Mostly for not me over me reasons and sheeping various cases.
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not me over me
this is the scummiest line ever obviscum votevotevote i banish you to hosting games on SF for the next two years
UGH
##Unvote
I need to reread some more
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A Sky wagon is out of the question isn't it?
##Unvote
##Vote O4rfish
Not super psyched over Oarfish/Dormio wagons, but I prefer Oarfish. His posts don't radiate an aura of getting stuff done, nor did I find them townie, nor did I find the defense pretty good.
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Still very much ok with lynching dormio
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I think it's clear cut that Oarfish claimed scum, since he made no posts after what he said replying to Serela, who asked if he was claiming scum.
So yeah, it makes no sense to lynch anyone other than him today.
I think that if Oarfish gave up just like that it probably means he was being bussed.
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If you guys are not convinced that Oarfish is scum yet, just look at his recent (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175522.html#msg1175522) posts (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175502.html#msg1175502).
In the first one he's pretty much just throwing random suspicions without a reason, and the second one is plain scum rethoric.
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why u gotta be so mitsuasive? i could sheep this #226
##Vote O4rfish
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but his last post ugh i don't see scum posting that ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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eh maybe it'd be better to unvote, he's at L-1
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Pretty sure you guys have 1 hour and 33 minutes remaining.
I'll votecount at some point if Prims doesn't show up to do it.
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The fact that O4rfish just stopped posting after that seems like a pretty decent sign he probably meant to be claiming scum there. Otherwise he'd at least go "what, no" when everyone's all "wait, I think he just claimed scum?" because it's not like he didn't have a counterwagon in Dormio.
Putting him at l-1 isn't that bad because nothing's really happening and there's only an hour and a half left. (Of course, letting people get last words in just in case is also good so long as you you're still gonna be here to revote him soon)
I'm goin' to work, poof~
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it's bad to put him at L-1 because I don't want him to self hammer
I forgot I could unvote myself lol ##unvote
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As for Oarfish's buddies, he claimed scum when only Bard, me, Refa and Serela were voting him, and I think he was being bussed already (which is why I think he gave up). So, having that in mind:
- Refa: His vote was the 3rd on Oarfish and it basically made the wagon a possibility, I don't see scum voting their buddy like that. His approach was also not flashy at all, if he was bussing he'd try to gain some towncred by lynching his buddy.
- Serela: All I said for Refa applies to some extent, and he had no reason at all to switch his vote from Sky Paladin.
... Ugh, I can't see Bardiche as scum either, so twhatever. I'll just leave the townreads there in case someone wants to check them.
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##Unvote
##Vote: Oarfish
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wait shit i thought there was 1 minute left because forum time is off for me and we desperately needed a lynch
is there still time
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54 minutes left
More votals - Votals
Sky_Paladin (1) - Dr Rawr,
Dormio (4) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan, Sky_Paladin
O4rfish (6) - Bardiche, Refa, Serela, Dormio, BT, Elieson,
Serela (1) - NekoRex
Not Voting: Mitsuki, SB
With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
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after actually reading oarfish's posts i don't see the scumclaim serela is talking about help
##Unvote
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##Unvote
##Vote: Dormio
BT why are you against this?
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Dan, what do you think of Oarfish and Sky?
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man I was really looking forward to finally rolling scum. At least my streak is still alive.
^ it's this
the relevant point though is that he didn't clarify it wasn't a scumclaim, he just stopped posting. Town wouldn't do that
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Not super psyched over Oarfish/Dormio wagons, but I prefer Oarfish. His posts don't radiate an aura of getting stuff done, nor did I find them townie, nor did I find the defense pretty good.
I feel like BT is scum if Oarfish is town because I have no idea how he can say Dormio has been trying to get things done when he's basically spent the day tunneling Sky with a case that he summed up in two sentences.
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Why does scum want to stop posting and stop defending themselves?
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I don't know? But he gave up
as town he would have clarified that it wasn't a scumclaim. Why would he want to stop posting as town, anyways?
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Why does Oarfish want to stop posting regardless of alignment? This argument doesn't make sense.
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BT why are you against this?
There were some early Dormio posts I thought looked town.
Went back to look, I think it was this part -
My gut reaction would be to sheep cases on Serela because I love easy cases and being lazy, but something is telling me that this isn't really the way to go.
##Vote Sky Paladin
Yeah, I liked my vote more when it was here so I might as well put it back.
I'm dismissive to the whole "Oarfish is scum for not saying he's not scum" thing because resigned townies do dumb things. So I'm still not sure about this lynch but it's still what I prefer.
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I feel like BT is scum if Oarfish is town because I have no idea how he can say Dormio has been trying to get things done when he's basically spent the day tunneling Sky with a case that he summed up in two sentences.
For the record, this wasn't a list of things I thought Dormio HAS done. I just never got the feel that his posts were malicious or anything.
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I understand that, but I don't understand why you would use it as justification for pushing Oarfish over Dormio instead of just "I thought he was town earlier"? It reads weirdly.
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SB, why do you never understand what I mean
why does this always happen
why
Let's make it simple
if Oarfish is town
1. Says something
2. People ask him if he's scumclaiming
3. Suddenly stops posting
conclusion: makes 0 sense
if Oarfish is scum
1. Claims scum
2. People ask him if he's claiming scum
3. Suddenly stops posting
conclusion: it makes all of the sense, because he gave up already
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I don't see why scum Oarfish would give up here though? He wasn't even in a bad position considering he had two viable counterwagons at the time. Him disappearing seems more like a having to leave thing than an alignment tell.
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Why does Oarfish want to stop posting regardless of alignment? This argument doesn't make sense.
If I get what you're saying... it's a playstyle thing? If I decide to off someone I'll post what I think about the guy. Just posting "I prefer this to Dormio" would have felt lacking.
Mitsuki: makes 0 sense != impossible.
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O4rfish (6) - Bardiche, Refa, Serela, Dormio, BT, Elieson
Dormio (5) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan, Sky_Paladin, SB
Serela (1) - NekoRex
Sky_Paladin (1) - Dr Rawr
Not Voting: Mitsuki
You have 25 minutes left in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
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Actually it's more than "not impossible", it's how I've seen town do dumber stuff so many times, it's... actually it's not "practically null", I take that back, but I still don't feel like it deserves this much weight.
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but what's the scum intent in feigning inactivity as scum, or giving up on d1?
there really isn't any?
mitsssssssssssssssssss
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I disagree with every argument so far saying that oarish is scum, from bardiche on down to mitsuki. He isn't a town read though. I still stink sky is town
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I don't get Elie's post
Also I don't know why he'd give up but I just see he's given up. If he's actually town and he did that then I'll implode.
But I still think he's scum regardless of the reaction test, and I'm really confident on that so yeah
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Ill be here to hammer tho
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Didn't PX do something similar in AA mafia to Oarfish disappearing here as town? I remember trying hard to get him lynched for it.
What reaction test?
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Found it. (http://mafia.getonpictochat.com/index.php?topic=27.msg3134#msg3134)
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I don't get Elie's post
Also I don't know why he'd give up but I just see he's given up. If he's actually town and he did that then I'll implode.
But I still think he's scum regardless of the reaction test, and I'm really confident on that so yeah
Let's make it simple
if Oarfish is town
1. Says something
2. People ask him if he's scumclaiming
3. Suddenly stops posting
conclusion: makes 0 sense
if Oarfish is scum
1. Claims scum
2. People ask him if he's claiming scum
3. Suddenly stops posting
conclusion: it makes all of the sense, because he gave up already
mits i'm asking why the latter automatically makes more sense than the former? IMO scum wouldn't jokingly claim scum anticipating that nobody would notice it. scum is typically careful about this kind of thing;
why risk it?
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Here and reading.
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I think Oarfish claimed scum because he gave up though, not as a strategical thing
is this really so hard to understand
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yes
it's day 1 and he had like barely any pressure on him
that's like quitting monopoly because you didn't land on Park Place on your first lap around the board
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He literally implied that he was glad he'd kept up his streak of rolling town. How was it a scumclaim?
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If you can explain why mafia would throw in the towel D1 then I'm all ears
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(http://images.bigcartel.com/bigcartel/product_images/154076248/max_w-900/_MG_5040_as_Smart_Object-1.jpg)
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ugh, I'm not even sure about what Oarfish posted anymore
let me ISO him quickly
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SB do you think Mits would push something like this as town?
(http://puu.sh/h6AoC/1c2a09c76e.jpg)
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10 more minutes!
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I really want to say no, but I'm not sure because her stubbornness reminds me of Code Geass mafia AND CYOU'RE so I don't even know.
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##Unvote
I'm still on the fence now and i've got feels that I can't explain that make me feel like we're lynching what's amounting to lazy town
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In this post I was trying to prod Bard into more direct action, while also disagreeing with Mitsuki's case on him. On rereading his earlier posts, it seems like he was doing well enough as it was.
Today's experiment ... failed.
^^ Does this give context to Oarfish 'giving up'?
I would rather we lynch somebody we found consistently scummy for a large part of the phase than one who was found scummy in the last 8 - 10 hours and hasn't really been around to explain. Lynnching through confusion doesn't sit well with me.
Buuuuuut I'll hammer if we have to.
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5-5 right?
(I'm here.)
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Just going to come out and say that I didn't actually believe that Oarfish really scumclaimed, which is why I asked him that question to begin with. I figured as town, he'd be indignant and say something along the lines of "how the fuck is that a scumclaim in any way". As scum, he'd probably try to attack...not me, because he wouldn't be able to counterwagon me, but my argument? I'm...not really sure how to explain the difference, but that's basically what I was looking for. Didn't expect him to ah, completely disappear off the face of the game. Kind of conflicted here because I don't see why he'd have to give up as scum this early (and I'm sure that one of the wagons is scum, but not both), but at the same time I don't really see why he'd just ditch everyone without an explanation as town. Ugh, mafia sucks.
He literally implied that he was glad he'd kept up his streak of rolling town. How was it a scumclaim?
...Wait, was that what he meant when he said he was glad he'd kept up his streak? Fuuuuuuuck, scum never says stuff like that. Mreh, just going with this. ##BigPlays ##RefaIsBestMafiaPlayer ##DormioErgoScum
##Unvote
##Vote: Dormio
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@mod
There's clearly many players and an active desire to end the phase well. Can we please get a 30 minute phase extension?
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Dormio (6) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan, Sky_Paladin, SB, Refa
O4rfish (4) - Bardiche, Serela, Dormio, BT
Serela (1) - NekoRex
Sky_Paladin (1) - Dr Rawr
Not Voting: Elieson, Mitsuki
You have 6 minutes left in the day. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
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no extensions, you guys had 72 hours which is plenty of time
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skypal is probably town or scumbuddies with oarfish
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*unless he's scumbuddies with oarfish
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I've read Oarfish's posts and I don't see the scumclaim nor the scuminess anymore
##Vote: Dormio
I'm almost 0% sure about anything right now
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Blargh 5 minutes. ##Unvote ##Vote Dormio[/b (edit: cuts)
The "can't believe I still rolled town" thing isn't a tell. C'mon.
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HAMMER SHUT UP
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Dormio (:tenshi:) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan, Sky_Paladin, SB, Refa, Mitsuki, BT (L-0!)
O4rfish (3) - Bardiche, Serela, Dormio
Serela (1) - NekoRex
Sky_Paladin (1) - Dr Rawr
Not Voting: Elieson
Dormio was put to rest permanently. He was a Vanilla Townie.
It is now Night 1. You have 24 hours to send in your night actions.
-
Vhaltz replaces Mitsuki.
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Vhaltz subbed to his death. He was a Vanilla Townie.
It is now Day 2. You have 72 hours 71 hours and 53 minutes to decide on a lynch. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
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lmao
-
I KNEW IT
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I think we might be able to learn something from Mitsuki's death, but it won't be anything definitive or solid.
The only other thing we learned is that Dormio was town. We can do wagon analysis, direct interactions, lack of direct interactions, and I guess that's it.
There's also conspiracy interactions, but I don't even know how to go about reading that successfully.
Not feeling too hopeful about this game, even though I thought I was going to get lynched and ended up surviving.
-
I guess you can start by explaining your comment that did look a lot like scum signing out of the game.
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##Vote: O4rfish
Good morning. Continuation of the previous day. Not much I want to comment on at this juncture other than receive O4rfish's reaction to this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175528.html#msg1175528). His failure to acknowledge it, then claim scum (holy shit people are ignoring it) and deigning to disappear then is, in his own words, the scummiest thing: claiming scum and then lurking.
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Serela (1) - NekoRex
Sky_Paladin (1) - Dr Rawr
Not Voting: Elieson
Please talk to me about your votes/decision to not be involved with either of the Dormio/Oarfish wagons.
Particularly Eli who was around at phase end, and NNR who seemed to agree with the Dormio wagon even though he didn't vote there.
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Bard, it was after that post that I considered myself lynched, and gave up. Not sure where I am supposed to have claimed scum though.
-
Heh, I tried to sift through a combined ISO of myself and Dormio, but it doesn't even look very defensible.
(http://i.imgur.com/RKd55fi.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZPJ8S75.jpg)
(BTW that last line of mine meant I wanted to finally roll scum, but rolled town instead. The unbroken streak is a consolation prize)
So, I guess this is my chance to virtually affect the game from beyond the grave, assuming I'm going to be lynched d2 and flip town. Please refrain from quicklynching me at least.
Contributory post to follow soon, hopefully.
-
(http://i.imgur.com/5nInJyM.png)
Wagon analysis is taking much longer than I thought. Fortunately, I think I've finally figured out how to do it properly.
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Of course, what I learned n1 and you will learn n2 (unless you are scum), is that both wagons of Oarfish and Dormio were town. Scum could lynch one or the other as they chose, or even go for the no-lynch. In this case, What Would Scum Do? I assume since someone WAS lynched, that in the end they decided not to try to no-lynch, whether or not they started working towards it or even considered it a possibility.
Recall that my wagon had strong momentum until it stalled out. Let us assume Scum had a hand in this. Let us also assume that Dormio was lynched with the acquiescence of Scum. What would have been their ideal actions during the final hours of the day? I submit to you that they would have done something perhaps like this ...
(http://i.imgur.com/AbQ3kUE.jpg)
Ideally, Scum would be on the majority wagon while voicing concern over whether it was truly a Scum wagon or not. Possibly the third scum would be on a different wagon. Then, they would switch to the other wagon, even hammering it at the last minute for extra towncred (from preventing the no-lynch). The entire scumteam would not end up on the final wagon, so the two switching scumvotes would split if the third was already on that wagon.
Of course, this is the IDEAL scum position. In all likeliness, it is not realistic that Scum would play this well.
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(http://i.imgur.com/za3QiCc.jpg)
(This should have accompanied the previous post)
-
Of course, this is the IDEAL scum position. In all likeliness, it is not realistic that Scum would play this well.
However, an intriguing exercise (since we have nothing better to do with the time until I am lynched) is to determine who the ideal third member of the scum team would be, assuming they were already on the wagon which succeeded.
Let's scroll up.
(http://i.imgur.com/z3JBoCJ.jpg)
There you go. As a reward for not lynching me yesterday, and as a consolation prize for finding out I am Town when you lynch me tomorrow, you get an Oarfish Special Insane Conspiracy Theory!
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Actually I missed the end of the last day by about half an hour. I would have lynched Oarfish, tbh, I agree more with bard that claiming scum then leaving when you're on the doorstep of death is kind of highly incriminating.
##Vote: Oarfish
not done rereading yet but this is preliminary and I might not have time to post again for a fair bit since I have to work today.
-
Brief train-of-thought post but the Dormio lynch wasn't bad either all things considered, he pretty much didn't exist this game. To be fair though, he didn't quit when the chips were down, he just wasn't around. I guess that's slightly more townie then quitting imo.
-
Huh, phase ends in the morning tomorrow and I need to go out.
I guess I could sheep the O4rfish case, but I think I'd rather see Sky Palladium lynched.
Like I said earlier, I think that Sky Palladium was a little too overexcited about his Serela case and he latched onto some random bs that he came up with and rolled with it.
It's just that Sky Palladium's train of thought is super special and I guess it seemed like a slam dunk case to him even though it just looks stupid to me.
Whatever.
This was Dormio's most town post tbh
I don't know why I continue to insist on talking about Dormio since he's dead when I'm trying to look for scum at day end but these issues keep coming up with me finding nothing redeeming about Oarfish in comparison.
-
I guess I could sheep the O4rfish case, but I think I'd rather see Sky Palladium lynched.
This quote to be exact. I'd expect Scum Dormio to hop the wagon more quickly when it was clear Sky was going to live D1.
ANYWAY I'll stop posting about Dormio now.
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I cannot make head or tail of that spreadsheet. Can you please explain how to read it and what the conclusion is?
That aside I do think your scum team pick looks great...
-
##Vote: Oarfish
The problem with Oarfish is that they have yet to vote anyone and include a valid reason as to why they think the person is scum. Regardless of his end of D1 post, this is still the best reason I need to vote him.
I'd also like to add that I still have a deathwish for Serela. After she returned from the blithering argument with Sky she's committed to sidelining and went pretty passive, just sticking to the Oarfish wagon. The arguments I made about Serela earlier apply just as well, although with Oarfish she at least contributed something.
I'm a bit more on the fence about Sky now but I'm still leaning pretty badly against him, maybe he'll improve.
Obligitory "Holy fuck Dan is in this game?" and "I forgot Rawr and Zak are in this game". I'd still lynch Zak for lurking, I like his lurking the least.
No other real definitive scumreads at the moment. I like Bard and Mitsuki still, still my best reads.
-
I also have bad gut on Elison but that's mostly because I can't take his posts seriously.
-
The scummiest thing about Oarifice to me remains his defense, because like Bard says he just kind of disappears in the middle of it. "Today's experiment failed" and other resigned remarks when the wagons are tied, mostly makes sense as overwhelmed scum. Townies usually fight their last-second wagons.
Then the posts today don't help because they prove an inability to scumhunt. It's just arbitrary 'fit into this template' stuff.
Better than my feelings yesterday.
##Vote O4rfish
Would like Sky to answer why he sagely responds, "Yes, that's a nice scumteam" to aforementioned awful template stuff. He didn't even suspect me or Elie in the past which makes it extra 'what'. Wait, I had to check to make sure, he did drop a one-liner about me being scum if Serela is scum. That's not very fleshed out.
I want to read some more but I'm out for most of today.
-
EBWOP: That's these-24-hours "today", not these-72-hours "today".
-
Some explanation of O4rfish's sheets is required. While I admire the effort you're putting forth, and it goes a long way to dissuading me from your lynch, O4rfish, it's hard to get what you're trying to say. It doesn't help you're still inviting us to make conclusions rather than doing it yourself.
I disagree with BT that "posts today don't help", because inability to scumhunt isn't necessarily scummy. Incompetence can come from both sides, and in this instance O4rfish is a rare enough player that I'll forgive some dubious methods provided he comes with good explanations and redeems himself.
##Unvote
##Vote: NNR
Chiefly wishy-washy (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175190.html#msg1175190) attitude there and while his reasoning seems sound at surface level, it feels like NNR's hardly even read what they're doing and can't be bothered to actually investigate. Even though he never mentions O4rfish, he suddenly would've lynched him? (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175965.html#msg1175965) And today, he doesn't even seem to acknowledge O4rfish's posts.
I just don't read any real effort here and think NNR is just going after what's easy without involving himself much. Considering he's suspicious of O4rfish, Serela, Sky Paladin and Zak, it seems like a quartet of easy.
-
I'm 900% confused at the spreadsheet, and this is the first time i'm playing somewhere that screenshots are allowed, so that's new for me;
Regarding my Unvote yesterphase (9 minutes prior to phase end); I wanted time to think and I didn't expect BT to sideswip us out of nowhere with 4 minutes to go when people were posting every 30 seconds
2besrs; BT sniping Phase End early in obvious activity was bad and his current vote on O4rfish is equally bad because he's voting for someone who's obviously doing things, and just needs to clarify them.
For the record I do not think O4rfish is scum right now. Hindsight is 20/20 but I would've voted for Dormio, had Phase not ended while i was typing up my vote post
-
whoops
##Vote BT
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I disagree with Bard. I've been wishy-washy with exactly one player, Sky, and he's been back and forth between 'sensible voter' and 'Serela-tier fluffposter'. It's not an easy read to make. He also posts really insane shit as scum sometimes, from what I remember, but I can't remember if he does this as town.
I fail to see how my suspicions are bad. I didn't comment on Oarfish on D1 because he basically failed to ping on my radar. The Oarfish wagon only started up after I had been gone for the last part of D1 and that's where most of his 'content' was.
I will also note Oarfish's 'content' today is literally quoted as 'Oarfish Special Insane Conspiracy Theory!' and has zero explanation. He also fails to put a vote down or give any reads whatsoever. There is no reason to think he's town based on his D2 posts or his D1 shenanigans.
I will note Dan has a meta (which I will take with a grain of salt) of lurking ultra-hardcore and having posts with even less content then usual, unless he makes a ridiculous game-breaking gambit to confirm him as scum, and so far he's followed pretty well with that meta.
He has reads with zero explanation on D1 and has a vote on the town Dormio wagon, so I'm not seeing his angle..
Zak's posts only seem to try when he's brought up, which is a problem because he barely posts. Some of his posts have been good, like his Apr 7th stuff, but he's not posted anything good since then and his last post was really lazy.
It's not easy reads if they're good ones, and it's not like I'm not making these without coming up with reasons for them or sheeping them.
-
Prod dodge because I need to reread things and I've been busy all day. I might come back and content before sleeping but I dunno how likely it is.
-
I'll show you lazy.
##Vote: BT
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Ideally, Scum would be on the majority wagon while voicing concern over whether it was truly a Scum wagon or not. Possibly the third scum would be on a different wagon. Then, they would switch to the other wagon, even hammering it at the last minute for extra towncred (from preventing the no-lynch). The entire scumteam would not end up on the final wagon, so the two switching scumvotes would split if the third was already on that wagon.
I...uh...what...just...so confused right now. Why would scum be on the majority wagon while voicing concerns over the wagon (or rather, why is this something that only scum would do)? How would they get towncred for lynching a townie (in the rules, it states that lynches are mandatory). I don't even know what you're trying to get at with that last sentence. Also can you please explain your graphs, because they make no sense to me. Who exactly are you suspecting anyways?
I'm 900% confused at the spreadsheet, and this is the first time i'm playing somewhere that screenshots are allowed, so that's new for me;
2besrs; BT sniping Phase End early in obvious activity was bad and his current vote on O4rfish is equally bad because he's voting for someone who's obviously doing things, and just needs to clarify them.
They're not allowed (RTFR).
As someone who procrastinates all of the time (not just referring to mafia here), it's a horrible idea to wait 5 minutes before deadline to start producing actual content; at that point, people should just be making votes and ending the damn phase already. Hammering 5 minutes before that isn't scummy (especially in a game with a mandatory lynch); like seriously, where is the scum benefit in doing that? Don't agree with his Oarfish vote either but your defense is pretty lazy considering doing things is not indicative of alignment.
Speaking of BT, here's a reply to his earlier complaint (and more!!). It's not Oarfish saying that he "couldn't believe that he rolled town" that was so townie, but moreso the way he said it; basically it was mostly because of his tone/wording, if you get what I mean. Like, I agree that most of Oarfish's earlier content is scummy (and I was sure that at least one of the wagons was scum, because of the way they builded up), but his "scumslip" (I'm still not seeing how exactly that's a scumslip, honestly; the scummiest part there was how he just disappeared, and even that has little benefit for scum) just doesn't add up with his previous posts (for the record, a lot of his content today is incomprehensible, so it's kind of hard for me to draw any conclusions there; tonewise it reads as town in a bad position still trying to contribute).
Since there aren't any actual roles in this game, I figure that scum's kills are based purely on content (what, am I not good enough to get N1'd ;_;). Anyways, their kill on Vhaltzsuki makes no sense to me. Yeah, most people were townreading the slot by the end of the day (more or less) and they had a lot of content, but like...Mitsuki basically waffled on her primary scumreads (Bardiche/Serela) and didn't seem to have any other suspicions going into D2. It's not the kill I'd make as scum, at any rate. I can't really see SB doing something like that either (uh...I don't really know how most of the other alive players play other than Elieson, sorry), which is good because I didn't really have a definite read on him other than being fine with his posts/thought processes.
Ending the post here even though I have more to add (specifically, my scumreads/votes) for prod dodge reasons and also so that people can reply to my points here sooner.
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Even completely ignoring the "scumclaim?" shenanigans, O4rfish's d1 was really scummy. But, I have no idea what to make of how he's entering D2 :S No one really seems to understand it, though, so I guess that's nothing surprising.
Not entirely sure what NNR means about accusing me of 'sticking to the oarfish wagon', it was consolidation time and I also thought o4rfish was increasingly scummy? o.o I can't really argue with the low-content parts but I hate d1 etcetc things I say nearly every game
Rawr is max tier forgettable and is looking to be continuing that way, so I'm getting ready to put a fire under him for it because it's not D1 anymore. Dan is Dan, and the difference between town!Dan and scum!Dan is generally pretty clear around d3, so as much as I dislike what his meta is, whatever.
Not sure if I want to opening vote Rawr or O4rfish. O4rfish's D2 opener just has me confused. It's weird that it's over a day into d2 because actually like half the game still hasn't really done a single thing? Or maybe a third. Since I took so long to do this post I'm guilty of that too I guess! Elieson, move your vote somewhere else unless you've got something else in your case, a hammer going down 4 minutes to deadline is not scummy outside of really specific situations that don't apply here.
This post really isn't comprehensive enough so I'll probably be making another one by the time I sleep, but like, Zak/SB/Rawr don't exist, O4rfish doesn't make sense, Ellie's vote is silly, SkyPal hasn't gotten going yet, WELL I GUESS I'LL PROBABLY NEED TO BE DOING WAGON ANALYSIS FROM D1 INSTEAD AT THIS RATE :T I guess I should be doing that nayway
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Day 2.1 - Votals
BT (2) - Elieson, Zakeri
O4rfish (2) - NekoRex, BT
NekoRex (1) - Bardiche
Not Voting: ActionDan, Dr Rawr, O4rfish, Refa, SB, Serela, Sky_Paladin
You have 46 hours remaining in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
ActionDan and Dr Rawr have been prodded.
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Yea don't worry I'll make a post when I get home from work or something like that
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Right, here's the full spreadsheet.
(http://i.imgur.com/67lZvaK.jpg)
1: the player slot and name. Dormio is in slot 7.
2: when that player votes, and who they vote for. Here, NNR votes for Dormio.
3: who that person is currently voting for during a votal. Here, BT is voting for Elieson.
4: the number of people on their wagon. Here, Elieson has one person on their wagon. I used b because the letter w was too similar to the letter v, but that was made irrelevant when I got rid of the v.
(http://i.imgur.com/iHXFJED.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/NkaUlgt.jpg)
5: the number of votes the player placed that day. Here, Dr Rawr has placed 1 vote during d1.
A vote for 0 is an unvote.
Initially, while I was first making the spreadsheet, I had converted the names into numbers, so Oarfish would be 9, and then converted them back into names, and then I realized that wasn't helpful or necessary.
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(http://i.imgur.com/z3JBoCJ.jpg)
My scumteam pick at that time was BT, Elieson, and a third member who ended up being Skypal.
1: BT is bussing Elieson.
2: the third member of the team has to be voting for Dormio.
(BT and Elieson did not both switch to Dormio, so in this ideal hypothetical case there was a good reason they could not have done so, and that reason was probably that the third member was already voting for Dormio)
3: Skypal is the most likely person to already be on Dormio's wagon
(In the ideal, the third scum player would have been more vocal than ActionDan. Zak would have been a decent third member, but I did not consider him at the time)
4: and while BT was bussing Elieson, Elieson was bussing Skypal.
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Blargh 5 minutes. ##Unvote ##Vote Dormio[/b (edit: cuts)
The "can't believe I still rolled town" thing isn't a tell. C'mon.
FoS: BT. This rushed post with 5 minutes left makes me think being the one to place the hammer was more important than ensuring the lynch.
Right now, it is not looking certain that I will be lynched d2. I am actually somewhat disappointed, as this means my Townness will not be proven right away.
This quote to be exact. I'd expect Scum Dormio to hop the wagon more quickly when it was clear Sky was going to live D1.
"Dormio was Town, you guys. I wasn't here when he was lynched, but I would have totally voted for the currently-living guy than the dead Town guy."
##Vote: NNR
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You're voting me because I admit I would have voted you over Dormio? That quote is largely hindsight and doesn't even have value, you're stupid if you think I'm voting you because Dormio flipped town
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You read the game and a crackpot wagon analysis and a vote over some 20/20 hindsight post is the best you could come up with?
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You constant bemoaning that 'oh woe is me town is gonna lynch me and flip me as poor, innocent town' is starting to piss me off
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At least bards vote was thought out and good, even if I disagree with it. But come on
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NNR is overreacting heavily to this O4rfish vote. Feeling even better about my vote now!
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Wait so O4rfish thinks that BT, Skypaladin and I are all scum now...entirely because of vote timing and nothing else? You're ignoring the fact that I spent the majority of yesterphase with a strong scumread and vote practically locked on SkyPaladin. If you're gonna case me, do it right pal.
I'm...(http://i.imgur.com/mtoopL1.gif)
Look man, I'd give you a pass if your case made sense but your case is about as sturdy as a $5 iPhone case under my steel workboots. I really don't think you're scum but it's pretty much on gut at this point since it's like you're doing your best to make the worst cases possible
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Finally found my motivation. Let's start with Elieson, seeing as his LD1 content is really telling (WRT his alignment), and I'm going to explain exactly why that is.
@Refa I'm saying i would consolidate on dormio just to get a lynch if people are against a skypaladin lynch that strongly because despite reading skypaladin as scum i'm not really overly townreading dormio
Here he mentions that he's perfectly willing to consolidate on Dormio. There is nothing wrong with this reasoning in and of itself (otherwise I'd have called him out on it), but keep it in mind for now.
why u gotta be so mitsuasive? i could sheep this #226
##Vote O4rfish
Here he sheeps Mitsuki's case on Oarfish. Again, not scummy, but it's important to keep in mind for later.
but his last post ugh i don't see scum posting that ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Finally we're getting to the good stuff. He mentions that he can't see scum posting what Oarfish did, but keeps his vote on Oarfish anyways. A contradiction, especially considering he could have easily voted the other wagon that he earlier mentioned he was fine with consolidating on.
but what's the scum intent in feigning inactivity as scum, or giving up on d1?
there really isn't any?
mitsssssssssssssssssss
mits i'm asking why the latter automatically makes more sense than the former? IMO scum wouldn't jokingly claim scum anticipating that nobody would notice it. scum is typically careful about this kind of thing;
why risk it?
yes
it's day 1 and he had like barely any pressure on him
that's like quitting monopoly because you didn't land on Park Place on your first lap around the board
If you can explain why mafia would throw in the towel D1 then I'm all ears
And that inconsistency isn't just for one post (I can buy that town would make a mistake like that, especially during deadline), but for like five more. What's more, these votes are basically him asking Mitsuki to give him a reason to scumread Oarfish (this is not what town does) rather than, you know, acting in accordance to his own reads.
SB do you think Mits would push something like this as town?
(http://puu.sh/h6AoC/1c2a09c76e.jpg)
This post feels super scummy as well, but ugh...It's hard to put it into words. It just feels like he's discrediting Mitsuki and her argument subtly despite none of his prior posts giving off the impression that he has any issues with her (actually, they made me think that he was townreading her, so this is quite the turnaround). I also don't like how he farmed out the question to SB instead of giving his own thoughts on the matter first.
##Unvote
I'm still on the fence now and i've got feels that I can't explain that make me feel like we're lynching what's amounting to lazy town
The empty unvote also bothers me when he could have voted Dormio instead (again, he mentioned he was perfectly fine with consolidating on Dormio before and nothing he posted since then shows that his opinion has changed on that matter in any way). Just seems like apathetic scum who knows that both of the wagons are town (devil's advocate: if Oarfish is scum, then Elieson is most likely town by proxy since scum wouldn't be so apathetic to the lynch of a scumbuddy, but I'm townreading Oarfish anyways so...).
NNR also bothers me as well, but my case is mostly a combination of what I said yesterday (minus the points that I retracted, because they were wrong) and Bard's case today (honestly, I'm not sure why what Oarfish posted is alignment indicative in any way), so I'm not going to bother reiterating it here. Not sure what to make of his replies; I'm sure that he's genuinely frustrated with Oarfish for making what he considers a bad case on him, but it doesn't really help me read him any better.
Besides that, my reads on all of the other active players are null to town. I'm sure that at least one of the scum is hiding amongst the inactives, but ugh fuck reading inactives (please help).
##Vote: Elieson
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They're not allowed (RTFR).
Well, I uh ... hm.
I apologize.
I guess I thought it meant "no screenshots of privileged information"
Why would scum be on the majority wagon while voicing concerns over the wagon (or rather, why is this something that only scum would do)? How would they get towncred for lynching a townie (in the rules, it states that lynches are mandatory).
Placing the hammer in a game in which Town must lynch or be punished is worthy of at least some towncred. This is why it is an ideal situation for Scum to be in.
There are 3 defining characteristics of Scum in this game. They know who is scum and who is town; they are working together; and they are trying to get rid of town.
As I said, going for the no-lynch wasn't apparently something Scum wanted to do: they wanted to lynch Town, and they wanted to appear towny while doing so.
To do this, I assume they got on my wagon but voiced concern over whether I was truly Town or Scum, thus getting me lynched while avoiding backlash.
Then they got Dormio lynched while appearing Town.
In this hypothetical, there were several Town who were starting wagons and making cases, such that Scum did not need to do so.
Cut by: Elieson, are you denying that bussing is a thing that happens, and which can be extremely effective (as I personally learned in VA2)?
My "case" on you involves a little more than vote timing, and I was not casing you as an individual.
Cut by something long, so just posting now.
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Day 2.2 - Votals
BT (2) - Elieson, Zakeri
NekoRex (2) - Bardiche, O4rfish
O4rfish (2) - NekoRex, BT
Elieson (1) - Refa
Not Voting: ActionDan, Dr Rawr, SB, Serela, Sky_Paladin
You have 42 hours remaining in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
I guess I thought it meant "no screenshots of privileged information"
yeah, it does
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Mafia sucks.
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Mafia sucks.
Some clarifications before I read: Uh, I did actually not mean to cut the day short when I did, but I got lucky that it was only 5 minutes before deadline. I intentionally butchered the closing [/b] tag thinking it would cancel the bold but either it worked on this forum once (and not anymore) or it worked on another forum. :fail: I even said I was cut (by the L-1), in case you need more proof.
Second thing, about Oarfish's sheet, I went back and forgot he also compiled that big Oarfish/Dormio log among other things, so that's slightly more work put in than I remembered. The case is still completely arbitrary but at least it's consistent, so, yeah, I was too harsh on it. I'll see how I feel about this in a bit but either way I'd want Oarfish to try doing new things too, especially if he knows his case is one big hypothetical.
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New things besides the NNR vote? Well that's at least something. Reading Comprehension.
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I can buy into Bard's case. It feels like most of NNR's content has been kind of vague (finding Bard's usage of meta bad but not giving a reason for it) or pushing obviously after things that are obviously scummy (Zak saying he was going to lurk, etc). The way he constantly flips around on SkyPal that also confuses me and feels kind of exaggerated? Reads change and stuff but at the same time flipping around every time a new post shows up feels very wrong.
I kind of want to vote Rawr because his content is really sparse and uninspiring where it exists. I also remember his alignment generally being transparent in some of his town games but I haven't seen Town!Rawr in forever so I dunno.
I don't even know about Oarfish. I think I was townreading him at deadline yesterday because the cases on him that caused the near turbo were terrible but at the same time I caught a Serela post I missed the first time around that actually had some stuff I can agree with in it? Mafia sucks.
Refa's Eli case is good and I feel like Eli's BT vote today doesn't make sense. Cutting out five minutes of discussion time isn't incredibly anti-town unless you think BT blocked scum!Oarfish's lynch... except Eli states that he's townreading Oarfish. I also don't think that the way he seems to have dropped Sky (by not mentioning him at all) is realistic if he was scumreading him because he was Eli's top suspect yesterday. So the fact that he didn't even give Sky a passing mention on it's own is really weird, and when his reasons from voting BT aren't very solid it makes even less sense.
Eli > NNR > Rawr? I'm kind of unsure on the first two right now to the point that I waffled on my vote right before posting so yeah.
##Unvote
##Vote: Elieson
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I admit to apathy due to the volume of lurkers in this game.
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cant quite say i agree with oarfishes spreadsheets seeing as scum can roll around and do what ever they want. i also like to think scum wouldnt actually go and make a spread sheet explaining who they think could possible be scum and then voting someone completely different so oarfish is pretty town in my book for that reason.
As I said, going for the no-lynch wasn't apparently something Scum wanted to do: they wanted to lynch Town
@oarfish in what situation would scum go for a no lynch with this kind of game setup? i cant understand why you would bring something like that up
not going to go back and see if i should reread and see if i should comment about something sky paladin say very early day one so ill forget about that and move on.
ill look back at bt and nnr when i have time later butt for some reason im not really feeling either of them as scum atm.
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I've spent the past 12-ish hours battling extreme nausea and what I think is food poisoning from improperly prepared seafood from last night's dinner. You'll get more from me tonight when my stomach doesn't feel like removing itself from my body
quick notes though @sb Sky's done like nothing this phase, and BT's justification is really lame at this point. I think I'm just frustrated with BT at the moment for cutting me off mid-post yesterphase with his hammer. I clicked Post with a @@VoteDormio and the thing that says "There have been X new posts" came up, including his post with the hammer, and prims calling PhaseEnd. I don't know what else to tell you
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So... because you're frustrated because you wanted to be the hammerer, BT is scum? Explain this to me.
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I'm frustrated because I'm being called out for having my vote on nobody when as I said before, people were cramming out posts every couple of seconds.
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alright I'm feeling a little better today, not that there's a whole lot I can do to put it off any longer.
I think Oarfish is town because there are two scenerios that could be at play here
1. As town he gave up after being a heavy wagon and panicked, and is throwing out wagon analysis at that start of the day to try and give every single last bit of info he has to help town.
2. As scum he gave up and panicked, and is flailing around pretending to be useful with by recording the votes down and regurgitating them.
...actually, last night I somehow made this sound like the first option made more sense because it was the more natural course of actions, but now It sounds like the latter is more natural. Especially since I feel like town is more likely to pick themselves up and try again with real effort.
My vote on BT was largely based on Oarfish's point of how scum would act at the end of the day. Thinking back, the reason I liked it so much was because it was the only part of Oarfish's post that resembled Oarfish having his own sense of agency in what the town wagons are doing.
I also don't like that after reasoning through his scumteam based on the votecount, and based on the few points of logic he put towards how scum would act at the end of the dayphase, yet puts a vote on someone he didn't talk about at all for a rather slight gut reaction. Not sure if this is scummy bad, but even if you discount it as a pressure vote, I don't see how it could advance information in any real manor.
There's not been a whole lot of new information being presented in day 2 so far, so right now I guess this post is just me convincing myself that I want Oarfish to be lynched.
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Ellie that still amounts to "I'm frustrated and that's why I'm voting BT" :S
Yeah, the game is already kinda stalling. Normally it takes until d3 for that to happen, at least. This early, it makes it hard to have much to go on for lynches... ;_;
...fuck, I got distracted and now it's time for work. I have to just go ahead and post this as-is then. :T I was doing some rereading but I'm already late
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I've been/am really busy this weekend. Prod dodge or v/la til Monday Us.
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*Sunday US
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Day 2.3 - Votals
BT (2) - Elieson, Zakeri
Elieson (2) - Refa, SB
NekoRex (2) - Bardiche, O4rfish
O4rfish (2) - NekoRex, BT
Not Voting: Dr Rawr, Serela, Shadoweh, Sky_Paladin
You have ~21 hours remaining in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Shadoweh has been forced-subbed in for ActionDan.
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cant quite say i agree with oarfishes spreadsheets seeing as scum can roll around and do what ever they want.
This is true, however I was imagining what the ideal scum team would be, assuming they attempted and succeeded in manipulating the events of LD1.
@oarfish in what situation would scum go for a no lynch with this kind of game setup? i cant understand why you would bring something like that up
- Town must lynch and scum must kill. Failing to reach majority or failing to send in a kill will result in a pseudo-random kill - pseudo-random because if necessary, I may rig it to harm the responsible faction. So don't rely on this as a gambit.
It seemed obvious that Scum COULD benefit from Town not lynching. I also think it's obvious that they decided not to do it.
1. As town he gave up after being a heavy wagon and panicked, and is throwing out wagon analysis at that start of the day to try and give every single last bit of info he has to help town.
2. As scum he gave up and panicked, and is flailing around pretending to be useful with by recording the votes down and regurgitating them.
Well, my case is predicated on the fact that I am Town.
Usually, less credence is given to the opinions of dead people. I was trying to present my information and case in such a way that it could still be followed after I am lynched. Or killed, but I started today with the reasonable assumption that I would be lynched, and it seemed like I could bring a unique perspective to bear.
My case on BT as an individual is flimsy at best, and yes my vote for NNR was more a pressure vote for scummy behavior than a gut reading -- I started this game with a strong townread on him. However, Bard at least believes my pressure vote on NNR found some results, so ...
Not sure what to think about this. Who are NNR's buddies? Are there indications to which players he's working with? I'll post later with thoughts.
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I'm pretty sure I want to lynch more people than there are scum at the moment.
So I really like my NNR case, and I definitely don't like the O4rfish wagon anymore. With 21 hours left, it's time to toss down chips. Tell me why the Elieson or BT lynches are superior to NNR, who also overreacted heavily to being voted by O4rfish and seems too bothered to just be a simple townie!
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I'm mad because Oarfish's case is bad and nobody cares about it, and Oarfish isn't doing anything about it, or even giving a better reason to vote me. In fact Oarfish pretty much ignores everything I post about him.
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Very little has happened since my last post, which is kind of awful, but let me go at least read what's there.
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actually fuck it, I'm going to do a 180
##Unvote
I don't think Oarfish is scum any more. It doesn't even make sense to me now. I think he's just horrible at scumhunting. His vote on my is absolutely ridiculous, but then he has the audacity to follow up and assume that not only Bard is sheeping him (as opposed to voting me for a completely different and unrelated reason), but also that he already assumes I'm going to flip scum and has totally given up looking for more reasons to lynch me in favor of finding my buddies. I honestly think scum wouldn't do that just because it doesn't make sense to even 'pressure' me that way.
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##Vote Shadoweh
... Wait, what do you mean? Shadoweh isn't in the game?
Nonsense! It says right here in my role PM that I'm a lyncher and need to lynch Shadoweh to win!
You're not a lyncher, you're a prophet. Also post coming soon (TL's note: in a few hours).
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oh my god no i said i would sub in as a joke WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME
Uhm, the only thing i remember is glancing at a bunch of hilarious gif charts. I was under the impression Oarfish was spam-posting scum at first <.< So I guess I should.. actually read BT and Neko's posts.. *sobbing*
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##Vote: SB
I ISO'd SB and I'm noticing a pattern that he switches sides constantly on people he's voting, and switching his reads far too often, and sheeping wagons while not giving solid opinions on anyone else he's not voting.
On Mitsuki D1, he initially votes Mitsuki
(https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174915.html#msg1174915), then unvotes to vote Bard (voting Mitsuki) (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174959.html#msg1174959). He still [ur=https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174970.html#msg1174970l]voices dislike of Mitsuki[/url] though doesn't vote her. Then nitpicks her again (http://Then nitpicks her again) despite his vote on bard, but his vote on Bard feels like a pressure vote more then actual scumread.
Notice how he's on the fence about Serela and Skypal. It's early in the game, yeah, but all of his posts lack solid conviction on a scumread.
He drops Bard and votes Dormio (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175501.html#msg1175501) in an apparent bandwagon hop, then vanishes. Even his Dormio vote seems to lack conviction,
After he tries to snipe Oarfish (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175628.html#msg1175628) at deadline, he continues to post not to push a Dormio lynch, but to dissuade an Oarfish lynch with more weak stances (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175644.html#msg1175644) and reliance on meta (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175657.html#msg1175657) as opposed to quoting game content and really casing Oarfish.
His D2 content is so far a single post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176330.html#msg1176330) that completely lacks a single solid and original opinion.
I can buy into Bard's case. It feels like most of NNR's content has been kind of vague (finding Bard's usage of meta bad but not giving a reason for it) or pushing obviously after things that are obviously scummy (Zak saying he was going to lurk, etc). The way he constantly flips around on SkyPal that also confuses me and feels kind of exaggerated? Reads change and stuff but at the same time flipping around every time a new post shows up feels very wrong.
He criticizes me in a way that fails to give an actual stance that I'm scum, instead toeing it and saying 'NNR feels bad and I'm sheeping Bard'.
Made even more forced-sounding with the criticism on my lack of reason for disliking Bard's meta. SB loves to follow meta, so he should know that I kneejerk all the time at the mention of meta because it's lazy and unreliable. He thinks it's vauge now though? I haven't even scumread Bard either, so his whole criticism doesn't make sense.
kind of want to vote Rawr because his content is really sparse and uninspiring where it exists. I also remember his alignment generally being transparent in some of his town games but I haven't seen Town!Rawr in forever so I dunno.
I don't even know about Oarfish. I think I was townreading him at deadline yesterday because the cases on him that caused the near turbo were terrible but at the same time I caught a Serela post I missed the first time around that actually had some stuff I can agree with in it? Mafia sucks.
Then, hypocritically, he proceeds to be completely on-the-fence about Rawr and Oarfish, flip-flopping on Oarfish in particular after fighting against his lynch yesterday.
Refa's Eli case is good and I feel like Eli's BT vote today doesn't make sense. Cutting out five minutes of discussion time isn't incredibly anti-town unless you think BT blocked scum!Oarfish's lynch... except Eli states that he's townreading Oarfish. I also don't think that the way he seems to have dropped Sky (by not mentioning him at all) is realistic if he was scumreading him because he was Eli's top suspect yesterday. So the fact that he didn't even give Sky a passing mention on it's own is really weird, and when his reasons from voting BT aren't very solid it makes even less sense.
Finally, today's vote is just a bandwagon sheep, showing SB just isn't going to scumhunt himself this game.
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Holy shit we suck at mafia.
I didn't get much out of Rawr's recent post the first time around, but it reads similarly to his stuff in Draft to me? Where he didn't seem to do much until he became a wagon and just threw out a townread or so until people noticed he wasn't doing anything.
Zak's post on Oarfish feels genuine which kind of reinforces my townread on the slot.
NNR's case on me kind of sucks. It's based on me changing my opinions in early stages at the game (and not explaining WHY the changes are scummy), not wanting Oarfish lynched (which is only bad if Oarfish is scum, which NNR doesn't think now) and his analysis of my recent content is really reaching. If he'd bothered to actually read past the first sentence in both my reads on NNR and Eli he'd see that my points against them are different to what Bard/Refa said on them and I just said I agreed with what they had to say. Also apparently my vote is very scummy bandwagoning... onto a person with one vote. Because that makes sense.
Bard, what do you think about what I posted about Eli here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176330.html#msg1176330)?
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NNR can't be right about SB being scum and just sheeping everyone else, because why would he agree with Zak's post about me being Town when Zak's post is actually backing off of a townread on me, unless you think scum would just skim a third-party opinion and agree with it without bothering to grok it first.
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If there was a scum player who ONLY sheeped cases and joined wagons, that would ...
Actually I was about to say that person would be less dangerous than a different type of scum, but it doesn't sound as good written down than in my head. Still haven't examined NNR interactions; Saturday is busy for me. I'll try to do that when I get up tomorrow, if nobody else does it first.
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So uh having time to read didn't happen. >_> I'm also going to be gone until after deadline lynch, so:
I think Bard is town, and if Oarfish's charts aren't just made up (and I assume they aren't since he only has two voters) he's likely not scum as well, plus both possible counters piling on him makes me think one of them is weak scum. Zakeri seems passingly legit, I haven't the foggiest how to read Elieson though. So instead of voting nowhere I'm going to throw out a vote on Neko and catch up on the game when there isn't a mad deadline for me to meet.
##Vote: NekoNekoRex
PS: Serela is probably scum. Hi Serely! <3
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I can't blame Shadoweh's read on me because I'm sitting around doing practically nothing. :T It feels like almost as much has happened since I went to work last night as had happened in the ~50 hours of d2 beforehand, aka when no one does anything I'm just like "ugghhh."
Haha that makes me feel bad when I come back and go "I really, really think we need to lynch Dr.Rawr for his nonexistence." >_>; Does it help that his meta encourages that him doing that makes him very likely to be scum? Even in this game of lurkers, he's extra-guilty, he's posted like once d2 and twice d1, both his d1 posts are as bare as possible and his d2 one isn't much better, and I recall -multiple games- where Rawr was ultralurk like this and flipped scum afterwords.
It's kinda late for me to be trying to get the rawr wagon going but I'm going to be around for deadline so I can always change my vote back. (My workshift will have me gone until a couple hours before, though.)
Honestly it's harder for me to want to vote NNR just because he's one of the least lazy players we have, which makes him look better in comparison even if his content might actually be scummy? Scum has it pretty easy this game unless the scumteam really -is- like, NNR/Rawr/___ because we've got so many lazytowns and no offense meant but half of the other town is ineffectual enough that... welp. (Me included ;_;) It's even easier for town to trip over the players actually trying to post and play whilst scum cruises by, when there's only a few that actually have significant amounts of content to look at.
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MAN EVERY TIME I POST D2 I COMPLETELY FORGET TO VOOOOOOOOOOOOOTE
##Vote Dr.Rawr
I meant to vote the last two times too. ;_; At least on the last post it wasn't just because I forgot, it was because the meat of my post got cut off due to distractions and then having to go to work
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Ya im replacing out
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Yes Dan, we noticed when the moderator told us you've been subbed out and Shadoweh started posting as your slot's new player. o.o
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I would vote Rawr if we had the players for it.
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You do realize the biggest wagon is at a stunning ~*~3 votes~*~ right? Okay, I guess it's true there's been little discussion about a rawr lynch.
But that's probably just because he's so drastically nonexistent no one actually thinks about it.
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There's two reasons.
First, between logic both and meta, it seems incredibly likely Rawr is scum at this point, as I explained earlier. Lynching scum is A+
Second, NNR actually generates discussion, and I have a minor fear that lynching him will cause d3 to be like d2, except with even less talk because half of today was about or by nnr. There'd be the wagon analysis, but...
Also because I don't really see Elieson being a real counterwagon to NNR to make wagon analysis more useful tomorrow, and the SB case... well, I just read NNR's thing about it, but the issue is I read SB's posts that are linked to and think just about everything he says is good and stuff that I agree with more or less completely? So... I can't get behind that, either.
And I don't even know what the case behind the BT wagon -is-. Ellieson is apparently still voting him for hammering, and Zak is still voting him because of sheeping that he changed his mind about later???? What? I might be remembering something wrong here because that doesn't even make sense, but I have work pretty soon so I can't get drug into a reread vortex or I'll be late.
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I'd consolidate on Rawr. I would tried a lurker lynch from the start but then I'd just be lynched because our lurker meta is awful and people would just call me a lazy and scum person.
My case on SB is more he has very little conviction in his reads, allowing him to, say, switch his opinion whenever it's convenient for scum, as opposed to having solid reads which give him a more concrete stance he can't easily back out of.
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NNR can't be right about SB being scum and just sheeping everyone else, because why would he agree with Zak's post about me being Town when Zak's post is actually backing off of a townread on me, unless you think scum would just skim a third-party opinion and agree with it without bothering to grok it first.
Because scum doesn't have to actually try, Oarfish, they CAN get away with it because they're dishonest by nature.
(of course, you could just be his scumbuddy too but I think you're too ridiculous for that)
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I started thinking "Wait, isn't there supposed to be more people playing? Who are they again?" And I think a third of the playerlist hasn't posted in ever. *Facedesk* Let's see. SkyPal went v/la. Refa promised a post in a few hours and never did it, indicating he needs scrutiny later in the game. (Not today due to closeness of deadline, it'd just be a distraction) Ellieson never got past being frustrated with the hammer, Shadoweh's slot only just replaced in and was otherwise gone all day, BT is... not deathly nonexistant but actually pretty cruisy come to think of it.
Wait, I could define almost every person's d2 as cruisy, fuck. I'm not sure if I can even hold any water with that against anyone (other than someone with like, one non-fluff d2 post at all) with how today's gone.
I'm finally trying to analyze the game and the only place I'm getting is "Nearly everyone is guilty of low presence".
NNR:See, I like you. You're putting more effort into the game than almost anyone else. Unfortunately, mafia kinda falls apart if half the playerlist lurks, because then there's so little for the others to work off. :T I don't know if SB feels like that because there's just nothing solid to work with, or if you only look good because there's no one else trying? Ugh.
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worktime, poof, see you all between 1~2 hours of deadline~
Deadline is in 7 hours btw
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You do realize the biggest wagon is at a stunning ~*~3 votes~*~ right? Okay, I guess it's true there's been little discussion about a rawr lynch.
But that's probably just because he's so drastically nonexistent no one actually thinks about it.
Yeah, but there's a question of "can we even get this lynch???" which is admittedly still a problem with every other wagon but uh... yeah. Killing lurkers doesn't sound like a bad idea at this point.
My case on SB is more he has very little conviction in his reads, allowing him to, say, switch his opinion whenever it's convenient for scum, as opposed to having solid reads which give him a more concrete stance he can't easily back out of.
I'll admit to lacking conviction because well... I don't feel that confident.
Also I said I townread Zak, I didn't say that I agreed with him. I just thought that his post on Oarfish read like a natural flow of thoughts in a way that's harder for scum to fake.
##Unvote
##Vote: Rawr
@Prims, what happens if we can't get a lynch?
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I'm not going to be around at deadline and I don't really have time to do anything today. Wall and vote inc.
Out of NNR/Rawr, I'd prefer to keep NNR because he's posting a lot more. I generally agree with Bard on NNR though especially re: over reacting so I'm mmmm. Rawr promised content here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176159.html#msg1176159) and posted this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176354.html#msg1176354) which was quite underwhelming. Contrast with NNR's case and vote (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176513.html#msg1176513) on SB. I'd keep NNR in for today over Rawr fo'sure.
I don't think Oarfish is scum. Content looks legit even though I don't understand it.
I feel that Serela is passively encouraging wagons without getting involved. Rawr vote was late and the Sky!Hate from day 1 is missing, which strongly indicates she was defensive/reaction rather than legit scumhunting. I don't rule out that Mits was hit because she spent most of the game wanting Serela dead although vote on Bard so shrug. Maybe scumteam just feared Vhaltz. I wouldn't know, I've never seen him play. Nobody else really cares, I'm certain Serela is scum but I'm tired of trying to lynch scum!Serala every game and nobody cares because *~it's Serela~* I think my gameplan is probably to engineer my lynch in day 3 so I can just shoot her. Unless Bard wants to do it.
I think Elli's giant wall in 211 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175548.html#msg1175548) is basically terrible, she's arguing for my lynch based on an evaluation between Mits/Serela. I said I'd rather keep Mitsuki, it seemed scum agreed, that's why all my friends always die. Eli's content is driven around defending Serela by attacking me - all her points are 'Sky said xyz about Serela' but I feel if she was legit scum hunting she would actually investigate if what Sky said was accurate or not. Would totes lynch Eli.
This post here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176191.html#msg1176191) looks like appeal to something or other, wifom or something. Don't like it even though the gif is fun, do post more.
I like Refa and I like Zak. I liked Dan/Shadoweh because I've never ever seen Dan town read me so I'll give his replacement a free thumbs up until she blows it by being passive-reactive.
This BT is not a BT I am familiar with. I expect BT to post occasional but quality. We're mostly getting snipe comments. Odd.
I like Zak, I like Bard but I'm wary because I've seen this Bard before in the infamous Sky-hammers-conftown-Shadoweh incident.
So let's see.
I'm town reading Zak, Refa.
I kind of like SB, NNR's case not withstanding.
I am null on Bard. I like his content and his aggression. I also liked that he along with Mits/Dan were probably the reason I wasn't mislynched Day 1 so that I could carry out my mission of shooting Serela in the next day phase, and I am town, so, I'm inclined to believe scum wouldn't lift their finger to save me. I think he's also driving the main activity in the game so I'm inclined to believe town!Bard for now. Sad he wouldn't vote Serela day 1, it would have been beautiful. Alas.
Shadowdan I want to town read but realistically there's not enough content. Null.
BT is more scum than null imo, I don't remember him really existing aside from failing to commit to a wagon/wanted to be the hammerer or something. I can't remember.
So that leaves Eli and Rawr. Eli I legit see as scum, Rawr I see as not contributing/generally lurker lynch over scumhunt lynch. Desirable if necessary.
I haven't had time to read in great detail so I'll sheep my main town read -
BT (2) - Elieson, Zakeri
Elieson (2) - Refa, SB
I think Eli is more scummy than BT, but BT is looking bad too. So I feel like Eli's vote is more of a bus. She spends more of her posts talking about how she longs for my death but where's the vote and case? Oh well let's vote BT zzz ok seems legit (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176051.html#msg1176051).
2besrs; BT sniping Phase End early in obvious activity was bad and his current vote on O4rfish is equally bad because he's voting for someone who's obviously doing things, and just needs to clarify them.
For the record I do not think O4rfish is scum right now. Hindsight is 20/20 but I would've voted for Dormio, had Phase not ended while i was typing up my vote post
It seems like Eli's vote on BT is because he sniped the hammer. I don't really feel that 4 minutes to deadline is unacceptable even with 'obvious activity'. I asked for a phase extension for 'obvious activity' and it was denied. It's been done to death that lynch is better than no-lynch and in this setup nobody can accidentally lynch the cop. I think this is unreasonable of Eli.
I also do not like the arbitrary clear on Oarfish despite earlier saying in her post that she was '900% confused by oarfish' and his spreadsheets, and the hindsight-Dormio vote. It doesn't mean anything.
##vote Elieson
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I also do not like the arbitrary clear on Oarfish
To clarify, the reason I do not like it is because Eli criticized BT's vote on Oarfish as part of the basis for her own vote on BT. She then stated that she thought Oarfish was town, even though she said she was confused by his spreadsheets.
I could extend the benefit of doubt to anybody who said they didn't understand Oarfish' spreadsheet because even with colored circles and stars I don't get it. I couldn't plausibly see anybody using this greyspace as a valid reason to vote. Part of the reason for Eli's vote on BT was because BT voted Oarfish after Oarfish had done what appeared to be a /tablefip + information-instead-of-analysis. BT's vote was what I would consider in the bounds of reasonable activity.
The other reason for Eli's vote was because she didn't like that he ended the phase with 4 minutes to go.
These events, while both true, are not evidence of scum intent. Several players had voted for Oarfish - I did not see Eli evaluate these votes.
Therefore I feel that Eli's vote is contrived as I don't see her looking for scum or evaluating if town could have done these things.
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I'm no longer dying on the inside
how much longer until phAse end?
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Sorry to disappoint you Skypaladin but I have a tendency to get irritated at people and vote for them for being irritating, since often times when people irritate me it's because of their scummy play, and this hunch of mine is correct about 60% of the time so I've just learned to embrace it.
Let's reply more to Skypaladin:
O4r: *Posts a bunch of confusing screenshots*
Elie: "I'm confused by your screenshots. Please explain them"
Skypaladin: "Elie looks pretty scummy for this"
Do you see the silliness behind this thought process? If your thoughts don't condense to literally just that, please correct me. If you're going to find me scummy, please do so for actual reasons like you've proven capable of doing, instead of twisting every little thing that I've done, even the things that aren't indicative of anything alignment-wise, into what you portray as scum behavior.
You also think I'm bussing my buddy, when I could've just kept my mouth shut with what you are pretty much reading as a contrived case (which I've been called out for this like 4 times for already).
I'll self-vote if you can give me any solid reason as to scum-motivation behind me voting for BT; I'm still confident that he is scum, just not for the reasons I initially thought, since all he's done this phase has amounted to defending himself and supporting O4rfish on efforts alone. That and his performance yesterphase amounted to little more than appearing at convenient times for phase start and phase end.
I'm aware that these reasons aren't anything definitive, which is what's holding me back from maintaining a vote on BT at this point, but when he flips scum later on, y'all can thank me later. more or less sarcasm, I'm just leaning scum on this guy because still bothered but nothing really solid exists so I think it's more salt on him interrupting me at phase end than anything else
##Unvote
On the Flip Side, I'd like to vote for one who's voting for me (again) soooo let's play with some OMGUS
##Vote SkyPaladin
FWIW I think Rawr's townie in that he's advocating understanding behind the whole "No Lynch" thing, which I agree with.
SB & Refa...I'm not sure. They often scumread me enough and I just spent an entire game two games ago arguing that Refa was scum when he was
O4Rfish is all over the place and poorly justifying his own positions on the players in the game thus far. I'm 180'ing here because he had ample time to clarify himself and solidify his own stances but in the end it looks like he just threw out a pile of pretty sheets that don't necessarily amount to anything, even by my standards (which are pretty low fwiw).
:Would Lynch:
SkyPaladin
O4rfish
BT
:Wouldn't Lynch:
Selery
Dr Rawr
:No real leaning opinion either way:
Anyone Else
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ok you guys look im not some kind of one trick pony that lurks every game as scum.
anyways imma trust bardiche on this one. my gut is telling me NNR is actually town but hey im pretty sure bardiche is right more often than not.
##Vote: NNR
my gut is probably telling me BT is scum but thats just because he also i think has a scum lurk meta and i have nothing else to slam into BT about him possibly being scum. i wouldbe voting BT right now but looking at the wagon we have zakeri who has made one post about his vote and that was him agreeing with oarfish theory on who the scum team is which i think kinda fell apart when he voted NNR. and elieson seems pretty upset BT tried to end the phase early and something about voting oarfish.
i dont actually blame anyone for trying to vote oarfish when he started throwing out the spreadsheets since the day before he had just claimed scum or w/e and then he just tried throwing out confusing shit that nobody actually cares about
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Day 2.4 - Votals
NekoRex (4) - Bardiche, O4rfish, Shadoweh, Dr Rawr
BT (2) - Elieson, Zakeri
Elieson (2) - Refa, Skypal
Dr Rawr (2) - SB, Serela
O4rfish (1) - BT
SB (1) - NNR
Skypal (1) - Elieson
You have ~4 hours remaining in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
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##unvote
##vote: rawr[\b]
Got voting on my phone is a pita
Not me over me, dont like all the sheep on my wagon, esp rawr since he guts me as town.
Gut says scumteam is sb, elie, rawr. Will kick and scream until one of them is lynched today.
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So I uh kind of forgot to finish that post I said I was going to make (I'll try to have it finished ASAP). ;/ I'll consolidate on Rawr if it's necessary to secure a lynch, but otherwise I'm keeping my vote on Elieson/NNR (with a strong preference to Elieson).
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I think skypal is town
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Sb rawr elie doesnt actually make sense b/c of votes but im confident is 2/3 being scum
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>Try to vote Rawr
>Post in LoL thread
##Unvote
##Vote: DrRawr
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4 hours and I'm swapping wagons, but "I gutread NNR as Town but trust Bardiche" is scummy as fuck. Could've tied wagons and make a BT lynch happen as per his gutread, chooses to go the easy way and lynch what he thinks is town.
Also appeal to "Bard is seldom wrong" is erroneous, I don't have a very high success rate when it comes to lynching scum early game. It gets easier lategame when there's more posts to read and when scum's devious plans unravel, but at the start I'm just as clueless as Sky Paladin.
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Placing the hammer in a game in which Town must lynch or be punished is worthy of at least some towncred. This is why it is an ideal situation for Scum to be in.
There are 3 defining characteristics of Scum in this game. They know who is scum and who is town; they are working together; and they are trying to get rid of town.
And yet, noone is townreading BT because he hammered town (I'm townreading him, albeit for different reasons entirely). I don't see what's so ideal about the situation FYPOV considering that you'd know that both of the wagons are town (so it wouldn't make a difference to scum which one got lynched).
As I said, going for the no-lynch wasn't apparently something Scum wanted to do: they wanted to lynch Town, and they wanted to appear towny while doing so.
To do this, I assume they got on my wagon but voiced concern over whether I was truly Town or Scum, thus getting me lynched while avoiding backlash.
Then they got Dormio lynched while appearing Town.
Scum can't go for a no lynch. Again, it's listed in the rules (uh...but I'm actually right this time instead of being woefully misguided). I'm assuming that town would be punished for no lynching over scum, because it's our job to secure a lynch by deadline (which is why I don't see the logic in what you're saying).
In this hypothetical, there were several Town who were starting wagons and making cases, such that Scum did not need to do so.
Well, I can see that happening, at least. It makes sense that town would start a wagon over scum, at least in the earlier days.
Refa's Eli case is good and I feel like Eli's BT vote today doesn't make sense. Cutting out five minutes of discussion time isn't incredibly anti-town unless you think BT blocked scum!Oarfish's lynch... except Eli states that he's townreading Oarfish. I also don't think that the way he seems to have dropped Sky (by not mentioning him at all) is realistic if he was scumreading him because he was Eli's top suspect yesterday. So the fact that he didn't even give Sky a passing mention on it's own is really weird, and when his reasons from voting BT aren't very solid it makes even less sense.
I knew I was forgetting something. In addition to what you said, Eli dropping Sky is bad because he dropped his scumread because he couldn't get a lynch off on Sky as opposed to because he was townreading Sky (which would be a reasonable explanation as to why he forgot to mention it).
I'm frustrated because I'm being called out for having my vote on nobody when as I said before, people were cramming out posts every couple of seconds.
You're not scummy because you had an empty unvote (even if it's suboptimal, town has done this before), but rather because you had no reason to make such a vote in the first place.
I'm mad because Oarfish's case is bad and nobody cares about it, and Oarfish isn't doing anything about it, or even giving a better reason to vote me. In fact Oarfish pretty much ignores everything I post about him.
actually fuck it, I'm going to do a 180
##Unvote
I don't think Oarfish is scum any more. It doesn't even make sense to me now. I think he's just horrible at scumhunting. His vote on my is absolutely ridiculous, but then he has the audacity to follow up and assume that not only Bard is sheeping him (as opposed to voting me for a completely different and unrelated reason), but also that he already assumes I'm going to flip scum and has totally given up looking for more reasons to lynch me in favor of finding my buddies. I honestly think scum wouldn't do that just because it doesn't make sense to even 'pressure' me that way.
This 180 is pretty bad. Like, it's not bad because it's a 180 (town does that shit all of the time), but because of how contradictory it actually is. Earlier you mentioned that Oarfish is putting zero effort into pushing you and ignoring everything you say. Your reason for dismissing it is that he's horrible at scumhunting (please attack the case, not the person), which still doesn't explain your other issues with him. I dunno, it just comes across as you jumping ship after realizing that noone really wants to lynch Oarfish today.
4 hours and I'm swapping wagons, but "I gutread NNR as Town but trust Bardiche" is scummy as fuck. Could've tied wagons and make a BT lynch happen as per his gutread, chooses to go the easy way and lynch what he thinks is town.
I can get where you're coming from, but I can't see the scum motivation there. Why wouldn't he just say "not me over me" as scum (especially considering that this seems to be his reason for voting NNR over BT) when it'd be 1) a lot easier and 2) less likely to be scrutinized.
NNR's SB read is kind of bad? Obviously SB would lack conviction early on in the game, most people do. Your issue with his deadline content is reasonable but it doesn't really bother me in the same way that Elieson's does. You also pretty much misrepped every single point in his post; neither his reads on you nor Elieson are sheeps in any way.
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4 hours and I'm swapping wagons, but "I gutread NNR as Town but trust Bardiche" is scummy as fuck. Could've tied wagons and make a BT lynch happen as per his gutread, chooses to go the easy way and lynch what he thinks is town.
Also appeal to "Bard is seldom wrong" is erroneous, I don't have a very high success rate when it comes to lynching scum early game. It gets easier lategame when there's more posts to read and when scum's devious plans unravel, but at the start I'm just as clueless as Sky Paladin.
i didnt really see a BT wagon happening anyways i have to go do other stuff so oh well
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i didnt really see a BT wagon happening anyways i have to go do other stuff so oh well
pretty much any wagon could have been happening at this point.
in any case, townread vs. voting for townread despite also townreading him.
##Unvote
##Vote: Dr. Rawr.
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>Get mad about Oarfish and his case on me
>I'm scum
>Nobody does anything about Oarfish
>Throw Oarfish gripes out the window
>I'm scum
>Nobody does anything about Oarfish
Holy fuck people make up your minds
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I wasn't scumreading you for getting mad about Oarfish anyways (you could either be town mad that someone is making an awful case on you, or scum mad that someone caught you for all of the wrong reasons), so this is erroneous.
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Has anyone even read my gripes on Oarfish or you just skimming it because it's angryposting?
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He voted me on the basis I made a post about Dormio on D2 (and Dormio is dead) and then proceeded to not make any other comment about me for the next two posts, THEN said he's going to sit on it because Bard liked it and that he's going to find my buddies.
My case on BT as an individual is flimsy at best, and yes my vote for NNR was more a pressure vote for scummy behavior than a gut reading -- I started this game with a strong townread on him. However, Bard at least believes my pressure vote on NNR found some results, so ...
Not sure what to think about this. Who are NNR's buddies? Are there indications to which players he's working with? I'll post later with thoughts.
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His disagreement about my SB case isn't because he thinks SB is town, it's because he's relying (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176548.html#msg1176548) that it's audacity (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176549.html#msg1176549) he would make those posts
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*make those posts as scum
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If there was a scum player who ONLY sheeped cases and joined wagons, that would ...
Actually I was about to say that person would be less dangerous than a different type of scum, but it doesn't sound as good written down than in my head. Still haven't examined NNR interactions; Saturday is busy for me. I'll try to do that when I get up tomorrow, if nobody else does it first.
"Scum can't be obvious because that would be too obvious" -Oarfish
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Dr Rawr (5) - SB, Serela, NNR, Bardiche, Zakeri
NekoRex (3) - O4rfish, Shadoweh, Dr Rawr
Elieson (2) - Refa, Skypal
O4rfish (1) - BT
Skypal (1) - Elieson
You have ~2 hours remaining in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
NNR, I already said that I was townreading Zak without agreeing with his points. Try again.
I feel like if one of NNR/Elieson is scum the other probably is too based on how they've interacted today. Rawr is probably the better lynch between them still especially when valid reasons for voting NNR aren't really in his posts.
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Oarfish has failed to even put scum intent down on my vote, he just thinks that I'm wrong.
NNR, I already said that I was townreading Zak without agreeing with his points. Try again.
We're not even on the subject of you right now. I'm getting mad about Oarfish all over again because he's argh and impossible and everyone is ignoring him but me.
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But when I ignore him I'm scum because I wasn't ignoring him (and scum because I wasn't)
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I'm ignoring Oarfish because I've come to the conclusion that he is unreadable. I think he should probably be vengekilled when we get there though just because he'll be a complete question mark in *YLO.
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The SB case sounded a lot better when I wrote it, but tbh now I'm feeling like it isn't even though I don't like SB for his general lack of conviction he had for way too long into the game.
I think people are right though, there's not enough scum intent for it to work well.
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NNR, are you scumreading Oarfish? I can't tell from your recent posts (even though the last time you read him, you said you were townreading him).
Anyways, going to ISO Dr. Rawr (more like Dr. Lurk Harder) and see if I can get anything of value from his earlier posts.
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I want to scumread Oarfish, yes, but I don't want to be lynched because I am scumreading Oarfish
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On the other hand there is a certain amount of audacity that I can tolerate from people and Oarfish has crossed that threshold because he refuses to do anything sensible
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I think that the bottom line is that I hate everyone for blindly sheeping Bard.
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*even though Bard is town**
*and excepting the people who aren't sheeping Bard
*and excepting the people who don't actually think I'm scum
**but he's still a jerk
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I feel that Serela is passively encouraging wagons without getting involved. Rawr vote was late and the Sky!Hate from day 1 is missing, which strongly indicates she was defensive/reaction rather than legit scumhunting.
Rawr vote was late, but at least I've been consistently talking about wanting him lynched since late d1 for whatever that's worth. About the SkyPal part... did you forget the end of d1 yesterday where I grudgingly admitted repeatedly that it's completely reasonable to think you're town? :C
Kind of agree with SB's "o4rfish is unreadable". I don't know what to make of him. When I try to recall other games he's played, I think he always got lynched early for being kinda underwhelming? (and always flipped town, not that he couldn't still be scum here, but, the point is honestly it could be either or and I have no idea how I'm supposed to tell)
Anyways, going to ISO Dr. Rawr (more like Dr. Lurk Harder) and see if I can get anything of value from his earlier posts.
the funny part is it'd probably be pretty simple to just quote every post right here for everyone to look at, I mean there's only like, 4 and they're all small
but considering what the wagons are at I don't think it's necessary for me to do this :3
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Scumreads: NNR, SB, Elie, BT.
Townreads: Bard, nobody else
Wow, this is terrible. The best case today is from someone I'm scumreading, and yes my post on it was sarcasm which only the target of the case (SB) picked up on.
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I didn't even think it was sarcasm, just that you were horribly wrong.
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Zak's post on Oarfish feels genuine which kind of reinforces my townread on the slot.
Huh, I thought you meant my slot, but I guess you could have meant Zak's slot.
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Zak was scumreading you how did you even think that???
50 minutes left.
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This is the point where we go "There's enough votes to get a lynch at all, right?"
O4rfish, you're fine with swapping to Rawr before deadline to ensure a lynch, right? I mean I assume so but it's always nice to make sure.
Then we'd need one more.
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In the abstract, Rawr doesn't have a lot of content and one large chunk of it is anti-town. I don't think he would be a valuable member of a scum team, but I do like the idea of lynching him if it would get other people to post more.
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serela isnt scum you people are crazy you heard it from dr rawr first.
i have no idea what mitsuki means by bard being to aggressive. would mitsuki give some kind of obvious example of bardiche being a jerk as town and being even more of a jerk as scum?
##Vote: Sky paladin
i dont like the wording on his #71 that seems to make out that scum has to be either mitsuki or serela
I don't have any actual issues with his townread or his Mitsuki question, but his scumread on Sky Paladin is very surface level (just picking apart one bad thing).
its not misrep you actually did say you thought one or the other was scum. if you think its misrep why would you even bother saying "If I had to pick right now between who I'd keep in the game"
Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum vi scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
cant quite say i agree with oarfishes spreadsheets seeing as scum can roll around and do what ever they want. i also like to think scum wouldnt actually go and make a spread sheet explaining who they think could possible be scum and then voting someone completely different so oarfish is pretty town in my book for that reason.@oarfish in what situation would scum go for a no lynch with this kind of game setup? i cant understand why you would bring something like that up
not going to go back and see if i should reread and see if i should comment about something sky paladin say very early day one so ill forget about that and move on.
ill look back at bt and nnr when i have time later butt for some reason im not really feeling either of them as scum atm.
Oarfish townread is fine, but (again with the Sky Paladin) I don't like how he dropped his Sky Paladin read considering it was the only scumread he had on the last phase. BT and NNR reads are just kind of thrown there, which isn't really bad but well...hard to read.
ok you guys look im not some kind of one trick pony that lurks every game as scum.
anyways imma trust bardiche on this one. my gut is telling me NNR is actually town but hey im pretty sure bardiche is right more often than not.
##Vote: NNR
my gut is probably telling me BT is scum but thats just because he also i think has a scum lurk meta and i have nothing else to slam into BT about him possibly being scum. i wouldbe voting BT right now but looking at the wagon we have zakeri who has made one post about his vote and that was him agreeing with oarfish theory on who the scum team is which i think kinda fell apart when he voted NNR. and elieson seems pretty upset BT tried to end the phase early and something about voting oarfish.
i dont actually blame anyone for trying to vote oarfish when he started throwing out the spreadsheets since the day before he had just claimed scum or w/e and then he just tried throwing out confusing shit that nobody actually cares about
Ugh, this post. This post. I would be way more willing to sheep a read on him (since I literally forgot he existed until people started voting him today), but I just can't see scum being so inconsistent. Maybe it's because I'm such a perfectionist as scum myself, but I can't come up with a scum explanation for him voting NNR despite townreading him. Not really sure what to make of his issues with BT, it's just an unorganized mess and I don't even.
i didnt really see a BT wagon happening anyways i have to go do other stuff so oh well
Not sure what to make of this response.
I can get why people are scumreading Dr. Rawr and I have no issues with them (if we're going to end up lynching a lurker, it's best to do it before *YLO), it's just that one post that makes this frustrating for me. Bah, mafia sucks. Like I said before though, I'll consolidate on him at around 10 minutes before phase end.
NNR, I'll parse through your replies later (kind of busy ATM).
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I want to scumread Oarfish, yes, but I don't want to be lynched because I am scumreading Oarfish
Priorities and goals. This post makes it sound like yours are not Town.
And if I thought we could swing the wagon, I might even press this harder.
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Refa and Oarfish swapping to Rawr gives us enough votes. 22 minutes.
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Maybe it's because I'm such a perfectionist as scum myself
This actually is useful, if it's true.
Kinda wishing Shadoweh did MORE than an ActionDan-style "my townreads vote for this guy so me too, now bye until tomorrow" but that's an issue for another day.
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Are we seriously going to no lynch?
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O4rfish and refa both said they'd consolidate on rawr so, no?
There -is- only 12 minutes though, so it's about time for that to happen.
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Dr Rawr (5) - SB, Serela, NNR, Bardiche, Zakeri
NekoRex (3) - O4rfish, Shadoweh, Dr Rawr
Elieson (2) - Refa, Skypal
O4rfish (1) - BT
Skypal (1) - Elieson
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. 10 minutes left
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FUCK REFA IS OFFLINE ON SKYPE
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What I have against BT: heavily lurks as scum (although is that even a tell in this season of everybody-sucks?), vote positioning LD1, hammer was somewhat suspicious.
What I have against Elie: vote positioning LD1, which is part of Refa's case which itself is also decent but not great.
I think that's everything I have.
##Unvote, Vote: Dr Rawr
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FUCK REFA IS OFFLINE ON SKYPE
Technically, we're not supposed to use outside communications...
I mean, I get the frustration, but this is a game.
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I didn't message him, I just checked his status.
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Hi Rawr, I see you online.
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well i mean what do you want me to say =/ its like 5 mins left
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unvote
vote: dr rawr
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fuck you guys i thought pahse ending an hour later
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ps photostatting sux
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Hammer/Deadline shut up etc.
Now wait for Prims to wake up someday.
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Dr Rawr (7) - SB, Serela, NekoRex, Bardiche, Zakeri, O4fish, Refa (L-0!)
NekoRex (2) - Shadoweh, Dr Rawr
Elieson (1) - Sky_Paladin
O4rfish (1) - BT
Sky_Paladin (1) - Elieson
Dr Rawr was lynched. He was a Mafia Goon.
It is now Night 2. You have 24 hours and 7 minutes to send in your night actions.
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sorry guys, like I said 72 hour night :^)
anyway: Bardiche received axe to the face. Or axe. He was a Vanilla Townie.
It is now Day 3. With 10 alive, it takes 6 to hammer. You have 72 hours to decide on a lynch.
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I'm the best and that was totally intended and not me fucking up in any way. I already ISO'd the flipped scum dude anyways, but I guess I'll just skim it for interactions again. Honestly don't see how it'd affect my reads though, since he was basically a lurker anyways...
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My reads during the night:
Obvtown: SB, NNR
Town: Bardiche, Zakeri, Sky Paladin
Probably Town: Serela, Refa
Null: Oarfish, Shadoweh, BT
Scum: Elieson
NNR was the dude scum tried to counterwagon. Zak and Bard were the ones who pushed it beyond the point of no return. Sky was the guy Rawr tried lynching Day 1 and iirc was the first person to actually give Rawr some attention. Serela should probably be higher for pushing the wagon to get started but I have weird gutvibes and I think Refa is town on tone and for the hammer.
Oarfish is unreadable, Shadoweh slot has no content and I don't remember BT's. Elieson is still basically the same as he was before. I should reread the nulls at some point but I kind of thought I would be killed so I didn't bother rereading when the night was actually happening.
So uh.
##Vote: Elieson
Yeah.
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I have meta for powerlynching my scumbuddies anyway (although even I probably wouldn't shove them off a cliff -that- hard, almost no one was thinking about rawr enough to start a new wagon on him) so I wasn't really expecting obvtown reads. Wow, I'm dumb for not realizing NNR is obvtown though, getting easy clears on people is my favorite thing too :fail: Clearly the last several months of no motk mafia has made me rusty.
Shadoweh, who has nothing to analyze... BT, whose content I want to sheep but whose D2 could understandably be scum (scum doing a fairly good job, but still)... and, imo, ellieson gets into the unreadable area for me too, but I think it's just because I've never seen him play before so I don't know how realistic it is to excuse the weird stuff he's done like vote someone all day over hammering 5 minutes to deadline. And then SB isn't clear to non-SBs, but really, everyone else on the list is a higher priority than him to me too.
Out of that, it narrows down to voting Elieson.
##Vote Elieson
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I think Bard was a bizarre night kill; scum!me would have shot Refa or basically any of the swing voters from NNR onto Rawr. So iirc that's Bard, Oarfish...and then Oarfish would have been seen as the designated scum mislynch in lylo, leaving Refa or Bard. Refa is basically conftown for his unnecessary hammer of scum so him not being hit in an absence of town docs means scum deliberately left him alive to hit Bard. That looks like a player meta or player connection type motivation for the hit; I'll have to ISO Bard to be sure, iirc he was leaning on Oarfish/NNR only. Oarfish is probably town for his vote on Rawr as he was no longer a counterwagon at this stage.
I'm a little suspicious of Shadoweh for voting alongside Rawr, the way it happened though was 'Going afk until after phase end, here is my vote' and then Rawr voted afterwards. Rawr's vote was 100% sheep Bard even though 'gut read NNR town' and then rambling on about BT here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176651.html#msg1176651).
i wouldbe voting BT right now but looking at the wagon we have zakeri who has made one post about his vote and that was him agreeing with oarfish theory on who the scum team is which i think kinda fell apart when he voted NNR.
looks like Oarfish's scum team theory is pretty damn solid imo :D
I established that I wanted to keep NNR in the game over Rawr, and voted Eli because I thought Eli was scum - Rawr looked like a scummy lurker lynch and I would rather lynch an active scum. Eli's vote late day 2 was pretty bad since it was basically an excuse to vote not-Rawr, and included this list of reads:
:Would Lynch:
SkyPaladin
O4rfish
BT
:Wouldn't Lynch:
Selery
Dr Rawr
Missing some players e.g. Bard/Shadoweh. Interesting "wouldn't lynch" pile since by this time the Rawr wagon was only SB/Serela and it should have been an easy scum push to finish off the L-3 NNR unless all scum were already on the wagon. Players at that stage were Bardiche, O4rfish, Shadoweh, Dr Rawr, so that's unlikely. Also has BT in scum list in agreement with Rawr so *interesting* and does not include NNR, the main wagon at the time.
The main issue I have with scum!Eli is that it means Eli attempted to start a new wagon when an NNR lynch seemed most likely, while Rawr was voting NNR. It would seem to me scum!Eli would have voted NNR instead of Sky. Not only did Eli not vote, she didn't list NNR as a viable lynch. That suggests to me that a scum!Eli was more concerned about getting pressure off of Rawr by making the lynch seem inaccessible than addressing the key issue of 'is NNR scummier than Rawr or not?'. Incidentally, that's the issue I raises when I said "Let's keep NNR over Rawr", and that earned me a vote from Eli.
Eli can you maybe explain some of your reads please.
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Oh yeah, I completely forgot that Elie actually defended Dr.Rawr and put him in a "would not lynch" list.
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So, people I'd lynch today are Oarfish, Elieson, and Shadoweh.
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Isn't that kind of a given though :S
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Yeah. I'm just not sure who I want to vote most. I also don't want to powerwagon Elie needlessly so early in the day.
Sheeping Skypal here, I kind of agree that Scum!Elie not mentioning me is kind of strange, but he didn't give a read on who he wanted to consolidate on at deadline either, and he defended Rawr. I guess Scum!Elie didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket? His literally OMGUS vote is super bad and he fails to address any other wagons besides Rawr (who he defends) or even look at the deadline time (which he ironically asked about). I don't think he can use the same 'deadline was too busy' excuse twice in a row, either.
Shadoweh basically went v/la and parked his vote on me with no reason. Which would be a good move for scum... if I had been lynched.
Oarfish, pretty much not going to go over this again. His singular townread on Bard is important to note though, since you might find a correlation between that and our N2 death.
Oarfish consolidates on Rawr but importantly fails to actually give any reason he thinks Rawr is scum. In fact he seems to subtly try to dissuade the wagon at deadline
In the abstract, Rawr doesn't have a lot of content and one large chunk of it is anti-town. I don't think he would be a valuable member of a scum team, but I do like the idea of lynching him if it would get other people to post more.
...or not so subtly.
Priorities and goals. This post makes it sound like yours are not Town.
And if I thought we could swing the wagon, I might even press this harder.
##Vote: Oarfish
Seriously though lynch Oarfish
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That vote was an easier decision then I thought after all
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Day 1:
(http://i.imgur.com/snQ2lsf.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/znsqJ34.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/hsGne3y.jpg)
Day 2:
(http://i.imgur.com/yt0GzO2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/tPNdGoC.jpg)
One interpretation that leaps out at me is scumteam: Dr Rawr, Elieson, Serela.
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That's kind of implied subtly by Eli's scumreads
:Wouldn't Lynch:
Selery
Dr Rawr
Which is why I want Eli to talk about all of her reads.
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Any considerations that maybe Elie is just really bad a playing this game? evidently my reads have been absolutely awful since i thought Dormio was scum and Rawr was town.
OUT OF THOSE THAT ARE LIVING: there are zero clears so people playing this Process of Elimination game in Day three are automatically on my scumdar
1. NekoRex
2. Sky_Paladin
3. ActionDan Shadoweh
4. Zakeri
8. Selery
9. O4rfish
10. SB
11. Elieson
12. Refa
14. BT
Let me start with a precursor of I had no opinion of the sparse and unmemorable Zakeri ( whom, on a preliminary glance, hasn't done much of anything ). Upon a closer look at the handful of posts that Zak has made; how the fuck do you bulletlist on this forum, clicking List gives me two why do i have to type out the bbcode for everything here why can't this forum just have WYSIWYG god
-Contributions amount to Day one's deathtunnel on Dormio
-Vote on BT was absolutely terrible but during Day 1 it just looked like what he called it; lazy. To see justification after the fact of the magnitude that was presented just doesn't look right. It's justification, sure, but it's a lot, which makes me wonder how a "lazy vote" could possibly have had such a foundation holding it up
-A townread heavily based on a Day 1 scumread which wasn't really a scumread until Day 2
Analysis: Upper tier scumread, held back only by lack of presence.
Next, I'm taking a calm cool and collected look at BT. Looking at his Day 1 presence,
+Upon a reread, his Day 1 posts were pretty thin, sans his pretty hefta post about Mitsuki and Bard. I actually don't think he would be scum shooting mitsuki based on how much he maintained communication with her during Day 1.
+The attitude and posting style don't "reek of scum intent", especially Day 2's O4rfish posts, as in, they don't read as forced, which is a good thing when looking for townreads
-Content still seems sparse, and comments on the rest of the game are eh at best
Analysis: In hindsight, didn't really handle properly. Wouldn't lynch this phase, but not overly town or anything
I haven't really even read SB's posts. Little in them upon preliminary glances made me really want to pay attention to them...I should probably do just that.
-RVS'd Dr Rawr, and utilizing meta here entirely, I think it's not worth ignoring the flip given SB's bussing habits. This is minor at best but it's a thought that crossed my mind so I'd be clouding my judgment if i forced myself not to look at SB as much as I could
HOLY FUCK I JUST FOUND THE WYSIWYG TOGGLE SWITCH! MOTIVATION=FOUND
+Dormio pushes look fine
-Late D1 one-liners really didn't amount to much in terms of contribution. It's easy to ask questions
Analysis: Overall presence is good enough though posting one liners doesn't give me much to bounce ideas off. Leaning town
Next up, Refa.
=For starters, some responses.
---I unvoted and didn't vote Dormio 9 minutes before phase end because like i've said four times, I didn't want to rush phase end early when people were around discussing things.
---When I have no idea how to read X player, and someone is evidently putting up a decent yet questionable case on X player, I might agree with it (and sheep it) but that doesn't mean I agree with it 100%. Mits had a decent case on O4rfish at the time but I didn't have any more confident reads at the time except SkyPaladin, but I wasn't 100% sold on it and I didn't think that she was either, hence my inquisition
---Why would I ever have a reason not to vote (unless it's like, an unnecessary phase end hammer or something)?
---Yes, I did drop my case on my #1 scumread at the time, because I couldn't get him lynched. People didn't agree with me and were voting elsewhere, making my vote on SkyPaladin neigh useless. I wasn't benefiting anyone by holding a vote where it wouldn't yield any fruit. I already argued my casing, and if the others don't agree with it, then that's their preference. We can't always lynch our #1 scumreads.
And onto thoughts
-I don't feel like Refa's reads are solid. Like, they have continuity, but they feel more or less locked in place
-Questionable position with Dr Rawr, especially this line:
Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum vi scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum v scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
which was a direct response to Dr Rwar. It just doesn't read right...I can't put my finger on it exactly
-His ISO of Dr Rawr produced such nonconclusive thoughts that it almost reads like Refa's not sure if he should push who might be his buddy
-Presented a bad position on the O4rfish, granted you only retracted your vote because you thought it'd be silly for him to give up when you admit to never buying the "scumclaim" to begin with
Analysis: Mild null-leaning-town read that's become an unexpected scumread
I've had a townread on Selery all game and that hasn't changed, and O4rfish has gone from maybe scum to probably town due to such ridiculous behaviour and content being too absent minded and reading his posts as being made so instinctually that I just can't really see him as scum at this point. I guess I have three people left to closely analyze but I need to get sleep because tomorrow I'm chaperoning my daughter's field trip and need to be kinda rested up so at this point, my list of catch up
1. NekoRex
2. Sky_Paladin
3. ActionDan Shadoweh
##Vote Refa
**Edit**
Cut by O4rfish's charts which somehow resulted in my entire posts becoming BROKEN, so i've spent the past 5 minutes removing size=78% tags from my post ughh
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**Edit Edit**
Dr Rawr was town to me, sorry to burst everyone's bubble.
-Day 1 wasn't anything special
Day 2 featured:
+natural feeling posts plus a vote on SkyPaladin, whom I was (probably still am I'll confirm later) scumreading
+Gave little reason to vote for Neko when there really wasn't any need to
=Tried to justify O4rfish's confusing spreadsheets, which still are confusing (and have been wrong on several accounts so far so I'm not really that willing to pursue cases founded upon his poorly explained googledocs
=Overall lack of content just read like a lurker and well I guess I let lurkers get away from me but I don't like lynching people with shit activity in earlier phases of games when there's actual scum that can be hunted
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I've had a townread on Selery all game and that hasn't changed,
Why?
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Also, can you explain how either BT or Refa's votes in the last five minutes of the phase constitutes a scummy action that overrides anything else they may have done in the game?
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So I really like my NNR case, and I definitely don't like the O4rfish wagon anymore. With 21 hours left, it's time to toss down chips. Tell me why the Elieson or BT lynches are superior to NNR, who also overreacted heavily to being voted by O4rfish and seems too bothered to just be a simple townie!
I think that the bottom line is that I hate everyone for blindly sheeping Bard.
Yeah, my reasons for voting Rawr did not include that I had a strong feeling he was scum. Your quote of me shows exactly how I felt, and I do not see how it makes me look bad in any way.
But please, why would I kill the person who read me as Town, and leave alive the person who only unvoted me because he was worried what other people thought about his reads?
I want to scumread Oarfish, yes, but I don't want to be lynched because I am scumreading Oarfish
Tell me that isn't a scummy thing to say.
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Of course, maybe Bard died because he was the most fervent believer in NNR=Scum?
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Of course, maybe Bard died because he was the most fervent believer in NNR=Scum?
But please, why would I kill the person who read me as Town, and leave alive the person who only unvoted me because he was worried what other people thought about his reads?
You provided your own reason there, mate.
Tell me that isn't a scummy thing to say.
Considering my over-reaction to your utterly empty case on me got a scum wagon on me, yeah, I think I might have been forced to switch votes or get a lynch. My switch wasn't even that good, yeah, but it was something to show I'm trying to find scum.
Your posts are still completely devoid of scumhunting content aside from confusing spreadsheets. And while analyzing votes is nice, you still need to analyze the posts behind them and point out some scum intent.
Hey Oarfish, where's your vote?
Hey Oarfish, who do you think is scum and why?
Hey Oarfish, what do you think of my case on you?
Hey Oarfish, when are you going to stop speculating and actually hunt scum?
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If you were town and didn't think Rawr was scum, why did you vote him? There were other wagons you could have easily pushed. Hell, you could have pushed me. There was enough time to at least try and push a turbo wagon, but all you do is say "I wish I could" and just vote Rawr in the least committed switch of the game. It looks pretty glaringly like a bus vote.
You haven't committed to anything all game, except for your read on me, and that's such a weak vote that you refuse to even come up with a decent reason to put it down.
(note: attacking me over a D2 post about dormio is not a decent reason)
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These two (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175005.html#msg1175005) posts (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175190.html#msg1175190) were what first led me to believe you were Town. Then in d2 your style just fell apart, twitterposting how much you hate me, except for the one post casing SB. Many of the posts do not show Town intent. Your case on me is laughable. What about your ED2 case still applies?
You must have a really high opinion of my persuasive skills if you think I could have gotten you lynched LD2. Let me give you a hypothetical: 1 hour left, I try for a wagon swap, not enough people switch over. No lynch, Town is punished. Another hypothetical: the Scum version of me disappears rather than vote for Rawr, no lynch, Town is punished, I look slightly more scummy than I did before, but Scum still has 3 living players.
If I were scum, either of those would be much more preferable.
Let's examine Bard's death as well. Scum Oarfish kills Bard because I like to get rid of allies and keep around people who want to vote for me. Bard was voting for me because I didn't have much content, but when I started producing he changed his mind. What would make Bard go after me, except laziness or hypocrisy? Or, Scum NNR kills Bard because you're tired of losing debates against him. Bard was voting you because of multiple reasons. He never even mentioned a reason to leave you alone. What could you do to change his mind, except kill him? Really, if Scum killed the people who believed in them and left alive the people who thought they were scum, how would they even survive to LYLO?
The ONLY reason I'm not convinced NNR is scum is because of interactions.
anyways imma trust bardiche on this one. my gut is telling me NNR is actually town but hey im pretty sure bardiche is right more often than not.
At this point Rawr has 2 votes and he brings your wagon up to 4.
[]##unvote[/b]
[]##vote: rawr[\b]
Got voting on my phone is a pita
Not me over me, dont like all the sheep on my wagon, esp rawr since he guts me as town.
Gut says scumteam is sb, elie, rawr. Will kick and scream until one of them is lynched today.
Your content is pretty bad, but I don't see the interactions with Rawr being damning the way they are with Serela and Elie.
And really, calling me out as scummy for saying "Let's lynch this lurker to encourage other people to vote more" is just disturbing. Please take some time to reevaluate your priorities, because I don't think anyone will thank you for tunneling me.
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I'm not only voting Serela because his reasons are not strong, otherwise I could have voted SB or you on your Dormio vote.
The main point is that I think Serela was trying to look serious and contributing with his vote yet I see no reason why he'd actually suspect Dormio. Town can make weak votes at this point of the game, but it wouldn't feel like they're trying too hard to look as contributing.
@Serela: thoughts on the game?
I was going to post a hypothesis tying together the scumteam, but then I realized some people haven't even entered the fray.
Mitsuki, why are you asking Serela for his thoughts on the game when he's been posting more than most people?
My thoughts on the game are the only thing that's actually happened is the Mistuki vs. Me and that whilst I could make a vote at this point that's marginally better than the one on Dormio, it's by such a small amount that it's not worth hopping back and forth between flimsy wagons for.
serela isnt scum you people are crazy you heard it from dr rawr first.
i have no idea what mitsuki means by bard being to aggressive. would mitsuki give some kind of obvious example of bardiche being a jerk as town and being even more of a jerk as scum?
##Vote: Sky paladin
i dont like the wording on his #71 that seems to make out that scum has to be either mitsuki or serela
(quote from Oarfish) I actually find this question a little weird, because all but one post was just responses to Mitsuki that didn't actually elaborate about the game. (What? This doesn't jibe with your earlier response)
I agree with Elieson about SP's "don't 100% believe Serela is scum" looking a little weird, overjustifying votes is something to be suspicious of from my experience (not elaborating unless someone deems it necessary because :effort:) and since the game was still nearly RVS, well, yeah.
...oh the reread is over, right, the game only just started <.<; Nothing else sticks out to me. TBH I had some Mitsuki stuff I pulled out as looking too tryhard to the point of being suspicious but when I actually examined it I changed my mind. I dunno, I still feel like there might be something there, but I can't pinpoint what's triggering my gut. I'll just have to leave it keeping an eye on Mitsuki for now to see if that goes away or not.
...Dormio hasn't posted, I'm not sure if that should make me want to leave my vote there more, or less? I guess when I think about it, even though the SkyP wonkiness is light, the reason I was voting Dormio is even more ephemeral and I shouldn't even be treating it like a real vote :V (Since it somewhat matters in this situation- yeah, the Dormio vote was vaguely serious, but only enough to get over RVS tier vote strength)
##unvote ##Vote Dormio
It should be obvious, but since Rawr flipped red I no longer believe Scum is positioning itself optimally. Rawr is a straightforward player, and so I will analyze things from a viewpoint of Scum being fairly straightforward.
During RVS, Rawr makes a crappy post and Serela's whaleface convinces 3 of us to vote him. Serela never chases this any further, and makes only one other post referencing Rawr, putting him fifth on the hit list. Mitsuki starts questioning him about his sheep onto Dormio, which he never gives a straight answer to. Skypal votes Serela because of his reactions to Mitsuki, which causes Elie and Rawr to start a Skypal wagon which Serela joins. After the wagon stalls out, Elie and Serela ride the Oarfish wagon into the ground while Rawr does nothing for the rest of the day.
Mitsuki is killed. This could point to Serela.
D2: Elie votes BT while Rawr and Serela are absent. When they show up, Serela starts a wagon for Rawr while Rawr jumps on the NNR wagon. Skypal and Elie tunnel each other, but Rawr never fights back against Serela and dies.
Based on this, I think Serela has a strong connection to Rawr, and Elie probably does as well when you consider Skypal's case on him.
If Bard was killed by this (or really any) scumteam, it would be because he was obvTown and a LYLO hindrance, as well as his perceived strength as a player, not because of his reads.
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We can rely on Refa, SB and Skypal to be active this phase, maybe BT as well, but I would really appreciate it if players such as Zak and Shadoweh got off the couch and posted some good content.
My scumreads: NNR for content, Elie and Serela for interactions (also sheeping Skypal and Refa on Elie), a faint BT for meta, and Zak and Shadoweh for powerlurking.
Null reads: Refa, SB, Skypal
No town reads left (besides me of course)
##Vote: Serela
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Interesting.
Why would you vote Serela over Eli?
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I have a stronger case against Serela. Signs point to Rawr taking a dive for Serela, and Serela killing Mitsuki. If Elie is scum, he's not the driving force.
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Also I haven't ISOd Elie. Tomorrow.
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I have a secondary reason for asking, but I need some time to pass for it to become useful.
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Geez Serela, if you really insist that badly you can be town this game after all. <3
I'll be active tomorrow, it's a day off-ish. Why are you asking Zak to post good content, I saw him wallposting while I was skimming the thread earlier, and I'm pretty sure they were full of reads on players and not fluff. Also, Serela's scum-flail panic is not usually on a scumbuddy who isn't getting attention at all. He wasn't asked about Rawr first, he just decided to point out Rawr wasn't doing anything on his own. My Serela Radar says he was being genuine.
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It should be obvious, but since Rawr flipped red I no longer believe Scum is positioning itself optimally. Rawr is a straightforward player, and so I will analyze things from a viewpoint of Scum being fairly straightforward.
Huh? So, since Rawr was lazy (as he always is as scum, and whaddaya know, I'm usually the only person actively yelling about it as usual :V) the entire scumteam must be playing badly? :S
During RVS, Rawr makes a crappy post and Serela's whaleface convinces 3 of us to vote him. Serela never chases this any further, and makes only one other post referencing Rawr, putting him fifth on the hit list.
Are... are... are you serious? ;_; You're saying I look bad because I DIDN'T TRY TO SERIOUSLY GO AFTER RAWR WITH AN RVS JOKEVOTE?
Mitsuki starts questioning him about his sheep onto Dormio, which he never gives a straight answer to.
I still maintain that the question was impossible to answer to any significant degree ;_;
Elie and Serela ride the Oarfish wagon into the ground while Rawr does nothing for the rest of the day.
You make this sound like being on the O4rfish wagon was a bad thing; I was actively putting out reasons that O4rfish looked legitimately pretty scummy, and don't even try to reduce it via the 'scumclaim' shenanigans because I had a legit case vs. o4rfish before that ever happened and the maybeclaim thing didn't really matter.
Mitsuki is killed. This could point to Serela.
Let me direct you to exhibit A~
Guess what, I don't like my Serela and Bard reads anymore. lol
I'm ok with their more recent posts, specially Bard's. Well, still waiting to see more from them and to see what I think when I reread, but yeah
Mitsuki didn't even think I was scummy in the last part of the day, not to mention she was getting replaced with someone else who'd have different reads. I wouldn't really have any particular reason to nightkill Vhaltsuki.
Skypal and Elie tunnel each other, but Rawr never fights back against Serela and dies.
Based on this, I think Serela has a strong connection to Rawr, and Elie probably does as well when you consider Skypal's case on him.
"Rawr continued ultralurking like he did the whole game already and died." Well, I guess I do kinda see where you're coming from, but TBH after the rawr wagon started shooting up and the nnr wagon became more obviously not worth counterwagoning off, I'm not sure he could have really done anything if he tried. It was pretty incriminating, Elie was the only person who didn't think he was scummy, and when you lurk that hard you can't really make up for it by posting a lot as soon as you're in danger, not to mention the contradictory content he'd been putting out (e.g. "I think NNR is town, ##Vote NNR") heavily implies he didn't have anything good to fight his wagon with either.
I mean, it's something, but "a strong connection" is pushing it a bit. Especially when you consider... even with my powerbussing meta, I mean, this is kinda shaky to push as a big reason that I'm scum. Rawr was obviously not in good graces this game and a possible flashwagon, but no one actually cared enough to push the wagon to happen. If I hadn't stepped in, it was probably very unlikely people would care enough to all consolidate onto him over NNR or BT or something. And the biggest problem with this is, by lynching rawr instead, NNR looks notably more town because he was the counterwagon, taking him off the lynch table when he easily could have been d2's lynch instead.
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Any considerations that maybe Elie is just really bad a playing this game? evidently my reads have been absolutely awful since i thought Dormio was scum and Rawr was town.
I do think that's possible, but honestly, I actually think bad play moreso points to scum giving a townread on their buddy in danger of lynchings, rather than town really having had a townread on rawr.
However, your post/investigation/etc is the best thing I've seen from you all game, so I may need to reconsider o: Shadoweh needs to get her Real World Content out too, because her slot's got nothing and she's on the chopping board as well, so after both of you two finish I'll see if I want to move my vote.
I don't really think I want to try to lynch O4rfish for his case on me, but I think Refa really needs more scrutiny than SB thought he deserved. It'd be really bad of him to just let the Dr.Rawr lynch go unfulfilled after saying he was there and would vote on it, and when Rawr inevitably flipped scum Refa would have been turbolynched.
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ffs I'm just building my posts in GoogleDoc, then copypasting them over. I'm having a hard time adjusting to this forum's UI/skin
@SkyPaladin
#437: Townread on Selery started early on when, and it?s progressed through until now because:
+His response to Mitsuki?s double-edged question was the response I feel was similar to how I would?ve reacted
+The sort of lack-of-attention-to-detail in #117 reads as town operating on gut+memory, rather than scum looking for all sorts of citation. In fact, the majority of the little debacle between you (SkyPaladin) and Selery read to me as someone being backed into a corner reacting the way that someone would naturally if they didn?t have anything to hide. The effort to defend himself wasn?t as high as I would expected scum to present
+His statements in #160 either ring no alarms, or now in hindsight, look favorable with his presence regarding Dr Rawr. There was no reason to bring him up at all at this point for points other than lurking; all Selery did was point out his strange behavior. It?s too weak to be a scum bus IMO
+I feel like the position he had on O4rfish, while one I don?t agree with, makes sense to me as probably half of the game agreed that he was claiming scum, which I can?t argue since the majority of that case was built on meta of an apparently confusing player.
+His first post on D2 assaults O4rfish and Dr Rawr, which wouldn?t be necessary as he?s done so little, then parks a vote on him pretty early on. Again, I can?t see this being a bus.
=I feel like he?s being called out a bunch for doing things that he just isn?t doing, like the likelihood of him killing Mitsuki (thanks O4rfish for this) doesn?t make sense with Mits was townreading him
-I think his (his?) case against me is nothing more than PoE which sucks but I feel like he?s covered reads on everyone bar maybe Refa at this point so idk?
Analysis: Comes across as a stronger player, and reacts to cases against him in ways that I feel are similar to what I?d do; they read as natural, which I support natural presentation and I scumhunt by semantics. I can?t find much in terms of reasons to scumread Selery at this point.
#438: I?m not sure if you read my entire post but I?m townreading BT now that I reread him with a level head, so I?ll answer this question about Refa. My concern with Refa isn?t his vote on Dormio (well, it kind of is, but it wasn?t a hammer vote and he?d called out Dormio a bit during the game), but it?s the unvote on Oarfish, in particular a response of
Just going to come out and say that I didn't actually believe that Oarfish really scumclaimed
In the post where he votes for O4rfish, Refa just sheeps Bard?s case, in addition to ?what he already said about O4rfish?, implying that there was a hefty pile of reasons as to why he thought O4rfish was scum. The Unvote came with the justification of ?Well I never actually thought the things he was doing were that scummy so yea? which goes against his previous stance of conviction pretty hard.
@O4rfish?s #445
If it?s halfway through Day three and your scumreading over half of the game, I think you need to re-analyze your thought processes. Can you not agree with me here?
Also, you list NNR as your first scumread, but vote for your third listed scumread. This rings a bell.
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This is neither here nor there but tbh I'm being a lot lazier than normal, not really bothering to reread to confirm most of what I say or to examine people or even really properly case the people I am voting. Several times I've voted someone and only gotten decent justification -afterwords-, by stuff brought up by other people, actually that's all my non-rawr votes this game I think.
I just don't really have the proper motivation/hype this time around D; RL is being really blegh which doesn't help. Thankfully by bouncing off others picking up important details that I'm completely missing the slack gets picked up, but, it's not a very town-minded attitude to have others pulling most of the weight for you
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Your case on me is laughable. What about your ED2 case still applies?
Well until this post you've had basically nothing to say about who you think is scum (besides me), why you think they're scum, and actually using post content to hunt scum. Bravo. I suppose that my ED2 case no longer applies. Not that it's the only part of my case. I've been on your ass all game about your weak and nonsensical case on me. It's caused me to flip flip purely because I thought scum couldn't be that bad at trying to get someone lynched. Apparently I'm wrong though since Rawr proved so!
You must have a really high opinion of my persuasive skills if you think I could have gotten you lynched LD2. Let me give you a hypothetical: 1 hour left, I try for a wagon swap, not enough people switch over. No lynch, Town is punished. Another hypothetical: the Scum version of me disappears rather than vote for Rawr, no lynch, Town is punished, I look slightly more scummy than I did before, but Scum still has 3 living players.
If I were scum, either of those would be much more preferable.
This is extremely shallow thought. If you caused a no-lynch on D2, you'd be powerwagoned instantly for letting it happen. You were around at deadline, you would have had no excuse.
As far as the wagon on me, there were already votes on it, it could have worked. Hell, there were players on it that agreed with the wagon at the time (SB, Refa). You just flip-flop however.
The problem is, you failed to actually put anything down on me, you failed to explain why I was scum until now. You had a weak case and so instead you went and bussed rawr while crying 'woe is me'.
Let's examine Bard's death as well. Scum Oarfish kills Bard because I like to get rid of allies and keep around people who want to vote for me. Bard was voting for me because I didn't have much content, but when I started producing he changed his mind. What would make Bard go after me, except laziness or hypocrisy? Or, Scum NNR kills Bard because you're tired of losing debates against him. Bard was voting you because of multiple reasons. He never even mentioned a reason to leave you alone. What could you do to change his mind, except kill him? Really, if Scum killed the people who believed in them and left alive the people who thought they were scum, how would they even survive to LYLO?
Bard was your only town read. Since scum benefits from killing the most obvtown players, there's no other logical choice for you. I could be scum killing bard, yes, that's a good way to frame me too, and obviously I'm not scum since Rawr tried to counterwagon me.
I'm not going to defend Serela, but I'm pretty sure Serela got Rawr lynched, and a 0-lynch scum wagon as scumbuddy when there's already viable town wagons around doesn't make sense. I don't have to look farther then your confusing sheets to confirm it.
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where are posts
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I think people noticed, but I'm barely dedicating time to this game. I CAN physically play the game but I have one, two hours of -free- time per day and I consistently prefer to do other things than read mafia during that time. It's like every time I join a game I forget I don't actually want to play mafia. "But it's good memories right? And it's fun sometimes? So go join."
/rant
##Vote Zak
This post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176397.html#msg1176397) was bad. For one thing, it's ultimately there just to establish that he's fine with the Oarfish lynch. "... I guess this post is just me convincing myself that I want Oarfish to be lynched." Zak was never part of the Oarfish wagon and at the same time supported it from LD1, so it read funny, like he needs to justify staying on the wagon, except he's not on the wagon. Then it hit me that there's a huge case of apathy here. There's the fact that the post stops without achieving much of anything - I can imagine Scum Zak losing the motivation to post once the Oarfish read was established - and there's how he parked his vote on me, apparently, because of Oarfish's post (source: the same post). Sheeping a guy and then cheerleading his wagon is a gigantic disrepancy.
He then shows up to vote rawr once the wagon picked up steam. "I think NNR is cop town, ##Vote NNR" is such a simple and clean reason to flashwagon a dude that can see scum submitting to it pretty easily, especially on lurkrawr.
The sucky thing about my situation is that my reads aren't near the strength I want them to be. I keep reversing my opinion on Sky because I think him prodding Oarfish/Elie is townie, but then I remember that he basically namedrops me as scum whenever it's appropriate but never does anything about it, so, like, is Sky just being hyper? I can't tell and I don't have the time to.
I still ultimately lean scum on Oarfish though. Really liked NNR's case (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177198.html#msg1177198). It also occured to me that the parts I remember the best from Oarfish's ISO is him on the defensive, like in this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177277.html#msg1177277). I think his cases this game are underwhelming, in general and in contrast to the amount of effort put in. Serela and NNR are pretty much the only two slots I'm comfortable reading as town and it rubs off very badly on his Serela vote and his NNR interactions.
Elie/SB/Refa require High Level Analysis and oh boy there's no way I'm doing that today. Basically I think I'd need to take a good look at their activity (mostly macro, interactions etc.) to figure out if they're scum and I pretty much have no handle on that at the moment. Unless I'm missing someone, all that's left is Shadoweh, but she isn't posting yet.
Good night. :colbert:
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##Vote: Serela for competing wagons' sake.
I support the Elie-Serelie pairing, and I would say more on it now but a special someone (who is completely off-site) has been abusing my creative thinking skills lately.
got no response to BT other than insisting that I'm not scum. It's a valid line of thought, so I don't fault it for being on the wrong side of chance.
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##Vote: Serela for competing wagons' sake.
ಠ_ಠ
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Unofficial Votals
Elieson (2): SB, Selery
Selery (2): O4rfish, Sage Zakeri
O4rfish (1): NekoNekoRex
Refa (1): Elieson
Sage Zakeri (1): BT
Hammer = 6. Phase Time remaining is like 50-ish hours from now.
[/b]
Zak...umm what?, your vote is barely a vote...i don't even
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Co-mod Votals
Elieson (2): SB, Selery
Selery (2): O4rfish, Sage Zakeri
O4rfish (1): NekoNekoRex
Refa (1): Elieson
Sage Zakeri (1): BT
Not Voting (3): Sky Paladin, Shadoweh, Refa
You have 47ish hours left in the day. With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
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Working on several posts atm.
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Bard was your only town read. Since scum benefits from killing the most obvtown players, there's no other logical choice for you.
Insane troll logic. As we all know, Scum don't need reads. They already know who is Town and who is Scum. If I were Scum, I'm pretty sure I would have left Bard alive until much later, seeing as how he had a Townread on me. You remember how I almost got lynched twice this game, and could have easily predicted I would be a target today ESPECIALLY after getting rid of Bard?
You make this sound like being on the O4rfish wagon was a bad thing; I was actively putting out reasons that O4rfish looked legitimately pretty scummy, and don't even try to reduce it via the 'scumclaim' shenanigans because I had a legit case vs. o4rfish before that ever happened and the maybeclaim thing didn't really matter.
Let me direct you to exhibit A~Mitsuki didn't even think I was scummy in the last part of the day, not to mention she was getting replaced with someone else who'd have different reads. I wouldn't really have any particular reason to nightkill Vhaltsuki.
These are both true, and I did not remember them when I was making my interactions case which doesn't look as strong now.
And the biggest problem with this is, by lynching rawr instead, NNR looks notably more town because he was the counterwagon, taking him off the lynch table when he easily could have been d2's lynch instead.
I don't see it that way. Counter-bussing could be pretty effective. By lynching Scum Rawr instead of Scum NNR, scum loses an extremely weak member and keeps a reasonably active member whom several players believe to be Town.
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This is neither here nor there but tbh I'm being a lot lazier than normal, not really bothering to reread to confirm most of what I say or to examine people or even really properly case the people I am voting. Several times I've voted someone and only gotten decent justification -afterwords-, by stuff brought up by other people, actually that's all my non-rawr votes this game I think.
I just don't really have the proper motivation/hype this time around D; RL is being really blegh which doesn't help. Thankfully by bouncing off others picking up important details that I'm completely missing the slack gets picked up, but, it's not a very town-minded attitude to have others pulling most of the weight for you
"I'm playing recklessly because RL and low motivation."
I think people noticed, but I'm barely dedicating time to this game. I CAN physically play the game but I have one, two hours of -free- time per day and I consistently prefer to do other things than read mafia during that time. It's like every time I join a game I forget I don't actually want to play mafia. "But it's good memories right? And it's fun sometimes? So go join."
"I'm playing to my scum meta for RL, plus low motivation."
(Quote from: Zakeri) Then it hit me that there's a huge case of apathy here. There's the fact that the post stops without achieving much of anything - I can imagine Scum Zak losing the motivation to post once the Oarfish read was established - and there's how he parked his vote on me, apparently, because of Oarfish's post (source: the same post). Sheeping a guy and then cheerleading his wagon is a gigantic disrepancy.
You know what's a giant discrepancy? Casing a guy for doing essentially the same thing you did! You voted me and a day later told me to provide more content -- then noticed I HAD, and supported me doing that but admitted not reading it and apparently you never went back and did so! There's no evidence you even read anything from d3 aside from a couple of hyperlinks.
I still ultimately lean scum on Oarfish though. Really liked NNR's case (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177198.html#msg1177198). It also occured to me that the parts I remember the best from Oarfish's ISO is him on the defensive, like in this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177277.html#msg1177277). I think his cases this game are underwhelming, in general and in contrast to the amount of effort put in. Serela and NNR are pretty much the only two slots I'm comfortable reading as town and it rubs off very badly on his Serela vote and his NNR interactions.
Weak. You aren't saying WHAT you like about NNR's case. And my cases suck compared to the amount of effort? Are you trying to say that your tiny amount of effort is a good thing?
BTW, claiming a townread on NNR is funny considering you haven't mentioned him at all this whole game. Other people you haven't mentioned all game: Rawr, Zak.
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and Shadoweh. I mean, I can understand why it would never occur to you (BT) to mention Zak, ActionDan or Shadoweh when you're only skimming the game, but while someone gets lynched I would hope you would at least say SOMETHING about it.
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At one point NNR had four votes on him, but of course BT said nothing about that one way or the other.
Maybe I've just got too high of an opinion on him from Mirai Nikki and VA2.
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+I feel like the position he had on O4rfish, while one I don?t agree with, makes sense to me as probably half of the game agreed that he was claiming scum, which I can?t argue since the majority of that case was built on meta of an apparently confusing player.
The reasons for me being confusing are probably that I don't have any scum games, and that I like to try new approaches because I don't have any nonasterisked wins.
Seeing as how Elie's townread on Rawr came within a minute of Rawr's "vote NNR against gut because Bard" post that got him killed, either Rawr thought that post was good or Elie and Rawr are not scumbuddies working together, or both. Not a solid defense but it's what I see.
I've ISOd Elie, and I'm just not getting anything clear. I disagreed with his case against Skypal, feeling the "I don't believe 100% Serela is scum" quote was taken out of context.
His posts backing off my lynch are not good, as both I and Refa pointed out (for different reasons).
D2, Elie votes BT and defends me, then when BT supports my amount of content but keeps his vote on me, Elie says BT is still scum and Oarfish is too, for "poor justifications". Meanwhile, people vote Elie and he just complains.
I try to read his D3 posts but my eyes just glaze over.
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I started typing the post about Elie, but completed the other posts first. I think he isn't playing strongly, but there's nothing I can really point to for casing him.
Serela's case against him is pretty weak.
Refa's case boils down to voting without having good reasons, and asking other people for justification rather than coming up with his own. Valid, but not exciting.
Skypal's case is detailed. Seems like kind of a list of minor bad-play things.
SB's case is weird actually.
I feel like if one of NNR/Elieson is scum the other probably is too based on how they've interacted today. Rawr is probably the better lynch between them still especially when valid reasons for voting NNR aren't really in his posts.
But, come D3 and Rawr's flip, SB treats NNR as obvtown and Elie as obvscum.
SB, some elaboration on this?
Zak's post looks pretty bad. You realize this is essentially similar to what got Rawr lynched, right? I mean, I'll give you a chance to explain yourself, but ... good luck with that.
I think I'd rather lynch someone I have a fairly solid read on, like NNR or BT, but come on.
##Unvote, Vote: Zak
Heh heh, this recurring database error is pretty scary. If this post doesn't go through, I'm going to hear a lot of "how about a conclusion" and "why did you not switch your vote"
... Looks like we're back! We should probably get a time extension though.
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Yeah the forum was down for like a day, so reasonably there'll be an extension.
Esp. after Zak's egregarious vote on me, I might want to get behind that wagon. :T I'll look over his other content tomorrow (there's only like 2 non-dodge posts anyway!) but I'm crawling in bed, my last forum refresh just happened to suddenly turn up with an actual non-error page (along with O4rfish getting in gear, hot damn)
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I mixed up gregarious and egregious, I mean the latter
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uhhh is this site still alive
I'm gonna give you guys a 24 hour extension since the site was down for a good chunk of today, don't use it all in one place even though that makes no sense
Elieson (2): SB, Serela
Zakeri (2): BT, O4rfish
O4rfish (1): NekoRex
Refa (1): Elieson
Serela (1): Zakeri
Not Voting (3): Sky Paladin, Shadoweh, Refa
You have 40 hours and 30 minutes left in the day. With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Busy, lynching Serela sucks, @Oarfish NNR is town because Rawr tried to push him as his counterwagon. This is like... basic interaction based reads.
More later.
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I'm really sorry guys, I was reading the game last night and tried to hit reply, and the forum crashed, I'll try never to post in mafia again in the future. :<
Seriously though this sucks, I didn't have to work at 11am yesterday. <_< I'm having to reread again because I don't remember my thoughts from yesterday, wheee. I changed my mind on Serela entirely, there was no worries about saving his 'buddy', which he would have imo paniced about when it started to look like Rawr wouldn't happen. It's easy to say all the wagoners look good, tbh. Oarfish was forced to vote via being seen there near the end and Refa was kind of in the same boat. Actually what I'm saying is p much a carbon copy of SB's post right after the flip, lynching should be between Elieson, BT, Sky P and me.
I kind of like Elie's posts, but both Refa and SB seem to hate what he's doing, and I expect them to know him best so I'm going to look at what their case was on him again. BT's last post about hating all life was pretty bad though. Cmon BT, I practically joined this game just so your last sendoff wouldn't have a long replacement time, show some enthusiasm. :} I want to say I agree with him on oarfish's posting but uh, I haven't been able to read Oarfish's posts since they're full of huge distracting charts that make my inner votecount analyzer cry tears of blood. Now that he's not posting them though his stuff seems logical? I certainly wouldn't lynch Oarfish today, he'd make a good venge-killer if it came down to it.
Zak's vote on Serela isn't unusual and you guys are jumping at shadowehs. Cross wagons between Zak and Serela after yesterday are shameful. What do you two think of Elieson and of BT's lack of will to live? I haven't.. seen any of Sky's posts yet so I'm not sure how to quip at him, but these are the people that should be getting attention. And me, since you wanted my beautiful attention. It's weird to be ignored when I'm mimicking my Inaction slot but okay, here's something you can actually talk about and say Shadoweh wrote that. I'm not going to vote yet since I really can't actually read the people I want to target yet.
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On phone so small posts.
@oarfish what happened to your serela vote?
Finally warming up a bit to oarfish effort but annoyed still it took him this long to put down good posts. Still think his read on me is weak andor influenced by mu tunneling but w/e.
Its enough to want to make me switch tho. Prob shadoweh or elie but maybe zak or bt? Dont want to switch while on phone atm
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SB, from what you said yesterday, NNR and Elie had the same alignment. Your read and case on Elie is "the same as yesterday" so I believe this is a point you need to address.
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To be honest at the start of this day phase I was totally down for an Eli lynch because I went through day 2 going "Eli and Serela are scum with Eli's sweet 'I will never, ever, ever, lynch confirmed Scum-Rawr and totally scum Serela". Seeing SB and Serela both open up on Eli at the start of the day was unexpected and I don't like surprises.
I think Refa/Zak/Oarfish are town, although Zak's vote on Serela is terrible and I want to look in to that in as much detail as possible in a little bit. NNR appears to have been a counterwagon to scum on day 2 so my feeling is that he is probably town unless we had dual scum wagons which I think is unlikely because scum would have pushed for the comparatively easy mislynch of Oarfish. Unless the team is Oarfish/NNR/Rawr, but today we have Oarfish/NNR going head to head so that seems unlikely.
I'm still concerned with Shadoweh. The 'thing that I was waiting for' was Serela to react to Shadoweh suspicion from day 2, but it didn't happen. On day 1 when Mitsuki, and then I, suspected Serela she went absolutely frothing mad, yet when Shadoweh said something Serela went out of her way to say Shadoweh's suspicion was justified.
I guess I feel that a lot of this games mystery can be resolved with a Serela flip. OTOH I think all of Eli's pushes have been bad and lined up with scum!Rawr's activity so I'll probably vote there.
I have some other things to do then I will come back and re-read some things here.
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Sorry, I just lost a huge post and am feeling really demotivated at the moment. Going to try and recreate that later when I have more time, but I figure that it's better for people to get a vague idea of my reads rather than just leaving them in the dark.
Elieson- Nothing that he said substantiated a townread on Dr. Rawr; I can get being confused on him because he's a lurker and barely had any content (I mean, that's pretty much me), but that's not what he did. Also don't agree with like, any of his scumreads (although his townreads are fine), and he hasn't actually adequately responded to my issues with him.
Oarfish- I was townreading him for their spreadsheets yesterday, but today it just seems like he's making them in lieu of actual content (well, earlier on)? I haven't actually bothered to read them though, so I'm not sure if this is just bad play or if there's scum intent behind it.
Townreading basically everyone else except Shadoweh and Zak. Shadoweh's posts seemed fine initially (although I'd like more impressions on the current wagons, but whatevs), and I was townreading Zak earlier but his current play is baffling me.
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Forgot to do this.
##Vote: Elieson
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I didn't react to Shadoweh previously because she hadn't caught up with the game to the point of posting real content yet. Refa is just kinda, there, but not only do I have no energy but no one is interested in him so I'm not going to bother with him today. Also I got mad at you because your case was the worst combination of smug gotchas and bonkers conspiracy theories.
BT's d3 content continues my previous opinion of lukewarm suspicion. Yeah, I can see this being scum, it makes sense from scum, there's minor things that suggest it's somewhat more likely scum than town, but it's stuff that could just be coincidences, such as who his town/scumreads are falling on and a more low-ish degree of content but still acceptable and not suggestive of outright lurkscum or anything.
Okay, I guess I need to decide who I actually want to lynch, since it's nearing deadline and I'm not super hyped about any single candidate in particular. Right, need to reread Zak. (This is pretty easy since he only posts in mafia, so his account's posting log is clean~)
There's... really not much here :S His post about BT d2 isn't bad but there's only that and him wanting to lynch Dormio d1. Even in terms of interactions this won't be helpful later because it'd be perfectly fine to do whether BT is a townie he'd mislynch or his buddy that he'd like arguably town looking interactions with after an eventual lynch, since it doesn't actually put BT in much danger.
Actually, wait, no, most of the stuff he's talking about in that post is wanting to lynch O4rfish. That makes the BT vote look even weirder if he's scum, but considering the tier of audacious laziness his play has hit, he could just be ballsy scum that really doesn't care if he's being weird? I mean he sure isn't getting a whole lot of flak, a lot of people don't want him lynched.
I don't actually know what to make of that. The Zak situation is really weird right now.
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After what I just made of Zak, and then looking back at BT's post, I really wouldn't want to lynch BT over Zak today, so at least there's that. Hmm.
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Yo. Reading up nowish, I suppose.
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I want to sleep aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
SB, from what you said yesterday, NNR and Elie had the same alignment. Your read and case on Elie is "the same as yesterday" so I believe this is a point you need to address.
iirc there was a weird thing with how both seemed to avoid each other despite being LD1 wagons. NNR is pretty obviously not scum now but Eli is still scummy so w/e. I was never that certain on it anyway and reads change so idk why you think this is relevant?
BT's Zak case isn't bad but it feels uninspiring and I townread him for the post so whatever. I also think Shadoweh's recent post is town because I feel like she'd be fighting harder to avoid PoE instead of going with the flow unless she has a buddy in a really strong position who she's confident can carry, but I don't think anyone fits that description atm.
Oarfish having no townreads right now is bizarre considering we had a scumlynch. I'm starting to think he's scum playing the most ridiculous game ever but I need to reread him... and pretty much everyone else.
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I lied. I'm cooking dinner instead.
Don't worry, Serela, I am getting a bit of flak for my votes. Like BT's response to my vote on him
Or your response to my vote on you.
I think I would honestly go back to BT of you, though. And over Oarfish. for all the circling I talked about yesterday on Oarfish, I don't think I picked up on any actual scumtells on him.
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Votals
Elieson (3): SB, Serela, Refa
Zakeri (2): BT, O4rfish
O4rfish (1): NekoRex
Refa (1): Elieson
Serela (1): Zakeri
Not Voting (2): Sky Paladin, Shadoweh
You have 24 hours left in the day. With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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REfa give me like a bullet list or something becaues i thought I spent like 6 lines responding directly to you
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I'm still concerned with Shadoweh. The 'thing that I was waiting for' was Serela to react to Shadoweh suspicion from day 2, but it didn't happen. On day 1 when Mitsuki, and then I, suspected Serela she went absolutely frothing mad, yet when Shadoweh said something Serela went out of her way to say Shadoweh's suspicion was justified.
I imagine that your suspicions were more firm then mine? I was telling Serela to get his act together in the special way we talk and I'd say he responded. Also his response to you just now about bonkers conspiracy was obvtown, ScumSerela would think your conspiracy theories were right.
Skype already supports an Elie lynch. How is there no counterwagon being pushed here? These trash wagons are quite sleepy, I guess the closest thing is Zak being pushed for voting Serela. Which just seems desperate to me (he did a weird thing lynch him!). Zak be serious here. Do you want Elie lynched? If not, do you want BT lynched? That last option might be out of reach this late, but dude you could try a little harder to care about who's being lynched today even if being the counterwagon isn't really making you lynchable in comparison.
Time to read back pages doesn't seem to be happening, so I'm playing why what's on the pages after I replaced in, playin it by ear awh yeah. I'm gonna be the one to posit it, there's support, it's a better lynch then a wagoner(Zak). Put your money where your vote is:
##Vote: BT
You know, if I'm so concerning, you guys could always try to lynch me for lurking. ::) I suspect some of you will actually try tomorrow when there's more day phases to rally against 'isn't posting much' without referencing my posts, which you know, I think have actually been pretty informative of my thought process while I'm reading through this.
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Zak is very audacious about his barely playing >:T
##unvote ##Vote Zakeri
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Like seriously, his d3 posts just read as polite trolling, and his D2 content was halfway there as well.
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Zak's D2.
1.Random(?) BT vote and skips out
2."Oh, I was sheeping O4rfish! Now let me dance around O4rfish whilst I try to sound like I think he's scum, although I'm not really sure but I guess I do probably, also I'm still sitting on BT even though I just deconstructed my own (already sheeped) reason to actually be voting him."
3."Wow, rawr said "I think NNR is town, !Vote NNR"? And look at that wagon. I guess he's scum. Bye!"
Zak's D3.
"lol vote serela just because"
"lol I'm not actually rereading, don't worry serela I actually -am- getting flak! well. a tiny bit. from like two people? hee. By the way I don't actually really have any opinion about o4rfish, even he was the only thing I paid any attention to d2! ~~~~~~"
LYNCH IT LYNCH IT LYNCH IT
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even though he was the only thing I paid attention to d2*
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Whilst I heavily paraphrased and the way it was presented is obviously quite biased, I don't think I really left out much if anything significant (the only notably condensed part was the dancing around o4rfish, since he used logic there, even if never addressing about he basically said he didn't even believe in his vote anymore) and I didn't twist anything too much (Again in the o4rfish part; at the end of the post he says "I guess I'm just trying to convince myself to vote o4rfish." Yeah, that'd be an audacious thing for scum to say, but Zak looks so heavily Refuge in Audacity I don't even.)
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Zak currently has: 0 opinions
Past "I'd consolidate on BT over you Serela", which is funny, because there's almost no drive behind a Serela lynch and Zak had no given reasons when voting me, and most of the reasons other people presented I deconstructed pretty hard. :T It really looks like the vote was purely dropped as to increase the wagon's power as he said, which still doesn't really make any sense. He just discredited his own stuff about O4rfish from d2 in his previous post, and that's the only non-d1 stuff there was from him, not that his d1 is particularly notable.
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okay nevermind Zak did say he "liked the serela-ellie pairing" when he voted me but
still
that doesn't change things very much
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I think Bard was a bizarre night kill; scum!me would have shot Refa or basically any of the swing voters from NNR onto Rawr. So iirc that's Bard, Oarfish...and then Oarfish would have been seen as the designated scum mislynch in lylo, leaving Refa or Bard. Refa is basically conftown for his unnecessary hammer of scum so him not being hit in an absence of town docs means scum deliberately left him alive to hit Bard.
Considering you and SB are the only ones townreading me (uh, that I'm aware of), scum probably viewed me as a more viable mislynch (and honestly, as a matter of pride I'd prefer not to get townread on because of one action over my overall play anyways) over Bard. What really confuses me is why scum killed Bard over NNR, because I figured NNR was obvious town after Rawr countervoted him. The whole situation just makes me paranoid about the possibility of scum/scum wagons on D2, although hopefully that's just me reading way too deeply into scum's night kill choice.
The main issue I have with scum!Eli is that it means Eli attempted to start a new wagon when an NNR lynch seemed most likely, while Rawr was voting NNR. It would seem to me scum!Eli would have voted NNR instead of Sky. Not only did Eli not vote, she didn't list NNR as a viable lynch. That suggests to me that a scum!Eli was more concerned about getting pressure off of Rawr by making the lynch seem inaccessible than addressing the key issue of 'is NNR scummier than Rawr or not?'. Incidentally, that's the issue I raises when I said "Let's keep NNR over Rawr", and that earned me a vote from Eli.
Honestly, that's some bad play regardless of alignment (as either, he'd want his vote on an active wagon after the 24 hour mark), so I'm reading it as null.
Oarfish consolidates on Rawr but importantly fails to actually give any reason he thinks Rawr is scum. In fact he seems to subtly try to dissuade the wagon at deadline...or not so subtly.
The fomer isn't scummy; I pretty much did the exact same thing and it was purely for the purposes of consolidation (as you can tell, I was pretty conflicted on the slot as a whole). It's the latter that worries me more, because it comes across as him basically giving up on his scumbuddy rather than a townie pushing their reads.
We can rely on Refa, SB and Skypal to be active this phase, maybe BT as well, but I would really appreciate it if players such as Zak and Shadoweh got off the couch and posted some good content.
Hahahahaha, me being active this phase. Good one.
I don't really think I want to try to lynch O4rfish for his case on me, but I think Refa really needs more scrutiny than SB thought he deserved. It'd be really bad of him to just let the Dr.Rawr lynch go unfulfilled after saying he was there and would vote on it, and when Rawr inevitably flipped scum Refa would have been turbolynched.
Yeah, I don't really get why people would townread me for the hammer either haha. It's like, right conclusion, totally misguided thought process.
Oarfish/NNR tunneling each other is completely obnoxious. I'm more inclined to believe NNR because not only is he way more likely to be town (considering scum tried to counter wagon him and all), but his case is legit sheepable and he's ACTUALLY VOTING Oarfish (I cannot stress how important this is; Oarfish's posts imply a scumread on NNR and he's continuously discrediting the dude without even voting him. The disconnect between his words and his actions is real) Not to mention the dude is literally trying to scumread everyone, which is at the very least bad play (it's more the way he's going about it that bothers me...not sure how to explain it exactly, it's more like his tone, what specifically is coming to mind here is his replies to Serela/BT saying that they weren't posting due to IRL concerns). The only problem here is that Oarfish/Elieson are most likely not scumbuddies, for reasons I pointed out earlier (go read Elie's LD1, or my post analyzing said content).
So I skimmed Zak's ISO and I'm not really bothered by him? His posts read as genuine (by this, I mean the few reads posts he does have), and really my only issue with him is his vote on Selery (which came out of nowhere). Also don't see why he'd make a lazy vote bussing his scumbuddy when he'd get barely any towncred for doing so. Like maybe I dismissed him too easily earlier on, but he's still not someone I'd be cool with lynching this phase.
After actually analyzing her posts, Shadoweh is probably town; basically I agree with most of her reads and more importantly, I can get the thought process behind them. Funnily enough, the only part I'm not so sure on is her current vote; she never really explained her reasoning behind it.. Care to do so now?
Elieson gets his own post for replies, lucky him!
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I'm pretty sure Serela is scum but I've tried lynching Serela so many games now and it never works. Even when we were scum together, we bussed so hard and I still couldn't kill her. I'll just wait for the sweet embrace of death and pray that I'm the one that gets to pull the trigger.
I'm kind of busy so I'm just going to go with day 1/day2 interactions/follow up on Eli/sheep my main town read ol' Refa. You're town not just for your hammer; I was town reading you for your content and some other stuff and generally being a good player. The hammer was just a nice finisher that made me go :V when Eli voted you.
Anyways
##vote Elison
BT is in the same boat for me as Rawr. That is, yeah I can kind of see why people think he is scummy, but it seems more like an afk lurker lynch. Of course that netted us scum last time so maybe I'll get to consolidate there later, zee zee. I'm not really interested in Zak because he's not being interesting. Shadoweh still has me spooked.
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I got hit with a case of apathy yesterday ^^;;
I probably won't really be around for deadline but I can at least try and pop in to put down a vote if a hammer is needed?
Anyway reading up.
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Also I kinda got stuck not being sure who I'd want to switch to which is probably why I feel apathetic since there's like four people I could vote and I dunno who I like the least.
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I realized I don't really want to lynch BT. He hasn't been here much but I feel this actually is a case of RL and not powerlurking. Also his posts don't seem really bad to me.
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Yeah I'm gonna switch to Zak. Serela's last post is pretty much on the mark and the fact he's making such ridiculous posts "Counterwagon Serela just because" "My defense is that I'm not scum" don't really fly.
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Oh whoops ##Unvote ##Vote: Zak
@Skypal I'm not really seeing Serela Scum this game, though. His posts have been generally not horrible sans that D1 ridiculousness and he drove the Rawr wagon pretty hard. What do you think about Serela in relation to Rawr? Just a scum bus? It didn't really feel like it.
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I don't think Oarfish is town by any massive stretch due to reasons I have stated over and over but in this case if feels like there's a lot worse people right now (namely Zak) and his attempts to scumhunt aren't bad, per se, just really wrong for the most part.
Actually rereading him yet again though I feel like it is bad, though.
I still ultimately lean scum on Oarfish though. Really liked NNR's case. It also occured to me that the parts I remember the best from Oarfish's ISO is him on the defensive, like in this post. I think his cases this game are underwhelming, in general and in contrast to the amount of effort put in. Serela and NNR are pretty much the only two slots I'm comfortable reading as town and it rubs off very badly on his Serela vote and his NNR interactions.
Weak. You aren't saying WHAT you like about NNR's case. And my cases suck compared to the amount of effort? Are you trying to say that your tiny amount of effort is a good thing?
BTW, claiming a townread on NNR is funny considering you haven't mentioned him at all this whole game. Other people you haven't mentioned all game: Rawr, Zak.
I think this is a pretty weak argument against BT. He's basically right about you, your defense hasn't been bad but your reads and cases have been pretty shitty. Your main gripe with BT here he is townreading me (conflicting with your read) and that he's voting Zak despite having no earlier read on him.
What's hilarious about the Zak vote is that not only are YOU YOURSELF voting Zak (why are you voting someone who your scumread is voting??), but you expect BT to have mentioned Zak earlier when Zak has barely posted all game.
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Your inherent refusal to accept me as town or even provide a good case on me (not just refuting everything I post) is also concerning Oarfish. Yes, you can be ridiculously paranoid about scum bus wagons, but do you really think Rawr would really make such a weak countervote on me just to try and bus a buddy in a last ditch effort to save himself (which even if he did wasn't going to last)?
You question literally every townread people have on me. Isn't that a little bit insane?
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Yes we can make the counterargument that I'm voting Zak when Oarfish is, but Oarfish's vote is basically just "you made a shitty post that I can't ignore over my better reads" whereas I agree with the actual case on Zak (as well as for the bad Serela vote) and I think Zak is legit more likely to flip scum then Oarfish.
Still really want to vote Oarfish again tho.
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Town:
Serela
Skypal
Me
Leaning Town:
Refa
SB (my earlier case on him felt a lot weaker after I wrote it and he doesn't feel scummy?)
BT (mostly boils down to gut, but I haven't really seen a major problem with his posts, albeit they're sparse)
Scum
Shadoweh (don't agree with anything he's posted, votepark on me D2 was bad)
Oarfish
Elieson
Kill It With Fire
Zak
I too have a lot of scumreads but it's just so hard to put down any one because they're all so ostentatiously bad.
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After actually analyzing her posts, Shadoweh is probably town; basically I agree with most of her reads and more importantly, I can get the thought process behind them. Funnily enough, the only part I'm not so sure on is her current vote; she never really explained her reasoning behind it.. Care to do so now?
Droopy dog lurker posting. Also to see if anyone would actually move like they keep saying they will (three no's so far so I doubt it)
I favor lynching Elie over Zak. Voting Elie would put him at L-1 with Zak not having voted though so I'm going to leave my vote here. I -might- be here before deadline again but no promisses.
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People raised a lot of good points about Elieson, most of which I hadn't picked up in my read, and when I looked back I agreed with a lot of them. I also agreed with the points that Serela looked pretty bad, and figured I'd see where people would go with support for lynching Serela.
I still think Elieson may be a good lynch, but between that and my remaining main read from day 2, I still feel stronger about BT.
##Unvote: Serela
##Vote: BT
BT's involvement has mostly been surface level, and the only parts I strongly remember is still the part that Oarfish brought up where he distantly pushed one of the day one wagons.
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The only good post BT has in this entire game is his vote on me and judging from NNR's reaction to Serela's vote on me, that's not a hard thing to make look good at this point in the game.
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Since no one seems to realize just how scummy Refa is, I'll put my vote on my other scumread (and since I've been accused of just trying to get one person lynched after I failed to get a different person lynched, go back and reread my posts to see that I townread BT pretty hard, I scumread Zak and I'm not gonna vote myself sorry to disappoint everyone who thinks I'm mafia)
##Unvote
##Vote Zakeri
Votals
Sage Zakeri (5): BT, O4rfish, Serela, NekoNekoRex, Elieson (L-1)
Elieson (3): SB, Refa, Sky Paladin
BT (2): Shadoweh, Sage Zakeri
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
4? hours left?
@SkyPaladin why are you just sheeping Refa and not really reading anything of my D3 at this point. I understand you're unmotivated but come on.
Of the people not voting for Zak, I highly doubt that my scumreads are going to hammer him if he's down (unless Zak does it himself; that'd be convenient). I still haven't read NNR/Shadoweh/Skypal [again] for what it's worth. I have a new mobile though, so hopefully I can get an opportunity to soon
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BT's involvement has mostly been surface level, and the only parts I strongly remember is still the part that Oarfish brought up where he distantly pushed one of the day one wagons.
if BT's involvement has been surface level, what's yours been?
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I was being generous when I said that because I hadn't reread his posts until the second post.
honestly though the way the wagons turned out I think Elie-Serelie is much more possible and likely. You're right in that BT could just be inactive like I've been, but in addition to the ties you and Serela put in with Rawr, I don't feel like Serela's input on my wagon is genuine.
##Unvote
##Vote: Elieson
Honestly the only people that look really good are Shadoweh and NNR.
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@Elie it's less then 4 hours left
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Oh I thought that was a 42, oops
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Yeah I'm pretty set with a Zak lynch here, there's basically nothing redeeming about these posts.
The only good post BT has in this entire game is his vote on me and judging from NNR's reaction to Serela's vote on me, that's not a hard thing to make look good at this point in the game.
I don't know what to make of this except just an urge to lynch with fire. It's like, what? This is the same as the post that got rawr lynched tbh. You're comparing the quality of votes based on my reaction to Serela's vote? What?
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Any considerations that maybe Elie is just really bad a playing this game? evidently my reads have been absolutely awful since i thought Dormio was scum and Rawr was town.
If people were scum for being wrong, then this game would have 3 townies and 11 mafia. I'm not even bothered by your Dormio scumread (the issue there is more how despite scumreading him and having ample opportunity to vote him, you did not do so), but you have given no reasonable explanation for why you were townreading Rawr. Yes, I read that post explaining it, but nothing there is strong enough to have Dr. Rawr as one of only two people in your "would not lynch" category.
Let me start with a precursor of I had no opinion of the sparse and unmemorable Zakeri ( whom, on a preliminary glance, hasn't done much of anything ). Upon a closer look at the handful of posts that Zak has made; how the fuck do you bulletlist on this forum, clicking List gives me two why do i have to type out the bbcode for everything here why can't this forum just have WYSIWYG god
-Contributions amount to Day one's deathtunnel on Dormio
-Vote on BT was absolutely terrible but during Day 1 it just looked like what he called it; lazy. To see justification after the fact of the magnitude that was presented just doesn't look right. It's justification, sure, but it's a lot, which makes me wonder how a "lazy vote" could possibly have had such a foundation holding it up
-A townread heavily based on a Day 1 scumread which wasn't really a scumread until Day 2
Analysis: Upper tier scumread, held back only by lack of presence.
OK.
- Why is this scummy? Generally town is more likely to deathtunnel than scum on Day 1, when scum KNOWS they'll look bad when town flips town.
- You're scumreading him because his vote had too much justification? Seriously? What about the actual justification itself?
- Uh...No idea what you mean here. Please explain.
Not a good case. Barely analyzes his posts worth analyzing. Opts to nitpick over very few points which are not scummy. Why have you not analyzed his later posts today?
Your SB/BT (SBT?) townreads are fine, no real issues to speak of there.
Next up, Refa.
=For starters, some responses.
---I unvoted and didn't vote Dormio 9 minutes before phase end because like i've said four times, I didn't want to rush phase end early when people were around discussing things.
---When I have no idea how to read X player, and someone is evidently putting up a decent yet questionable case on X player, I might agree with it (and sheep it) but that doesn't mean I agree with it 100%. Mits had a decent case on O4rfish at the time but I didn't have any more confident reads at the time except SkyPaladin, but I wasn't 100% sold on it and I didn't think that she was either, hence my inquisition
---Why would I ever have a reason not to vote (unless it's like, an unnecessary phase end hammer or something)?
---Yes, I did drop my case on my #1 scumread at the time, because I couldn't get him lynched. People didn't agree with me and were voting elsewhere, making my vote on SkyPaladin neigh useless. I wasn't benefiting anyone by holding a vote where it wouldn't yield any fruit. I already argued my casing, and if the others don't agree with it, then that's their preference. We can't always lynch our #1 scumreads.
And onto thoughts
-I don't feel like Refa's reads are solid. Like, they have continuity, but they feel more or less locked in place
-Questionable position with Dr Rawr, especially this line:Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum v scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
which was a direct response to Dr Rwar. It just doesn't read right...I can't put my finger on it exactly
-His ISO of Dr Rawr produced such nonconclusive thoughts that it almost reads like Refa's not sure if he should push who might be his buddy
-Presented a bad position on the O4rfish, granted you only retracted your vote because you thought it'd be silly for him to give up when you admit to never buying the "scumclaim" to begin with
Analysis: Mild null-leaning-town read that's become an unexpected scumread
-Dormio wasn't at L-1 for the longest time, so this is wrong.
-That's fine. What's not fine is when you say "I CAN'T SEE SCUM SAYING SOMETHING LIKE THIS" *keeps my vote on Oarfish regardless*. Why leave your vote in that case?
-...If both of the wagons were town. I already said this. Why would you need to make an empty unvote as town?
-Dropping your #1 scumread isn't scummy, it's the fact that you never deigned to mention this until you were called out for it. Again, why?
-How are my reads locked in place at all?
-Seriously?
-Fuck you, I already explained why I was non conclusive. It's because a player I was null on for the entire game was still null after I ISOed him. This is such a farfetched conclusion, like how would I not know whether or not I'd want to bus him as scum when he was the leading wagon. Probably wouldn't annoy me as much if it wasn't hypocritical as fuck considering your own read on Dr. Rawr.
-How is my position on Oarfish bad.
You're literally just nitpicking several of my points (most of your scumread is based off of like one post) without bothering to analyze the rest of my content (no, reads being locked in place isn't good enough). This is a far cry from when you analyzed literally all of my posts in Code Geass (obviously not expecting you to make a similar level on analysis because of time reasons but yeah). You're either scum or caught up in a serious case of confirmation bias.
In the post where he votes for O4rfish, Refa just sheeps Bard?s case, in addition to ?what he already said about O4rfish?, implying that there was a hefty pile of reasons as to why he thought O4rfish was scum. The Unvote came with the justification of ?Well I never actually thought the things he was doing were that scummy so yea? which goes against his previous stance of conviction pretty hard.
Are you reading my posts? I unvoted Oarfish because I didn't believe his scumslip was a scumslip, and SB's explanation of what he was actually saying didn't seem like something I could see scum saying. That's also why I cut the dude a lot of slack on D2, although some of his posts today are just ugh. Never did I say "wow, my case on Oarfish is now invalid", fuck I even said that I still viewed his earlier posts as scummy.
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Mreh, still wouldn't lynch Zak over Elieson. This is less about my townread on Zak (although that obviously factors in to some extent) and moreso that I really don't want to sheep my main scumread. Can consolidate if I'm forced too, but I'd prefer not.
Droopy dog lurker posting. Also to see if anyone would actually move like they keep saying they will (three no's so far so I doubt it)
Fair enough. Is he the type of player that only lurks as scum? Do you buy his RL reasons?
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Sage Zakeri (5): BT, O4rfish, Serela, NekoNekoRex, Elieson (L-1)
Elieson (4): SB, Refa, Sky Paladin, Sage Zakeri (L-2)
BT (1): Shadoweh
2 hours and 15 minutes left, I think? also I'm home from work hi
Based on what Shadoweh's been saying she's most certainly going to switch vote to Ellieson if she shows up before lynch. So, it's going to be up to someone on one of the wagons to change their mind. Even if it's a "deadline in 2 minutes, just do it" kind of mind change.
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I'll consolidate 15 minutes before phase end (the extra 5 minutes will definitely make sure I don't fuck up like I did last time), so if anyone on the Zak wagon wants to change their vote, now's the time to do it.
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I think the only person willing to change would be Oarfish, so I guess bye everyone
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uhhhh oops I kind of forgot that I have a doctor's appointment today, so flip will probably be late. You guys have 1 hour and 34 minutes.
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Refa,
remember how well my super duper hours upon hours of tunnel casing worked out for me in Code Geass? I hard-tunneled two town and you, the town-sided ITP. Forgive me for changing up my methods after dropping what was probably my most effort-filled game since FE12, but understand that your frustration with my meta isn't going to net you an accurate scumread/townread. With as much as eclipse and Manix and others go on about how meta is a bad thing, are you holding your vote on me because you're scumreading me or because I'm frustrating you again?
If people were scum for being wrong, then this game would have 3 townies and 11 mafia. I'm not even bothered by your Dormio scumread (the issue there is more how despite scumreading him and having ample opportunity to vote him, you did not do so), but you have given no reasonable explanation for why you were townreading Rawr. Yes, I read that post explaining it, but nothing there is strong enough to have Dr. Rawr as one of only two people in your "would not lynch" category.
I think we're playing another Everyone-is-mafia-mafia then :D
I thought Rawr's behavior was townie. I couldn't find scum motivation in his actions, and I wasn't going to sheep the obvious "He's so bloody inactive" or borrow other people's cases. Based on my own interpretation of his play, I thought he was acting in a way that scum would never act as. Kinda like Psych
OK.
- Why is this scummy? Generally town is more likely to deathtunnel than scum on Day 1, when scum KNOWS they'll look bad when town flips town.
- You're scumreading him because his vote had too much justification? Seriously? What about the actual justification itself?
- Uh...No idea what you mean here. Please explain.
Not a good case. Barely analyzes his posts worth analyzing. Opts to nitpick over very few points which are not scummy. Why have you not analyzed his later posts today?
Your SB/BT (SBT?) townreads are fine, no real issues to speak of there.
It's not indicative of alignment either way, sadly. However, that's all he did. Had he deathtunneled and done some other things of value, there would be more weight in his words.
I feel like he came up with justification later on. Put down a vote without expecting to get called out for it, then had to produce something to back up the vote he locked himself on to. The dude went on forever with piles and piles of logic and reasoning. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GO FROM "eh I'll vote X i guess" to "I voted him for reasons 1, 2, 3, 4, 4a-4b-4c and 5". You bring SOMETHING up early on, or state that you have legit reasons and then bring them up. Of course I read his justifications, and they feel like desperate grasping for straws at every little possible thing that could be possible to grasp at
His BT vote was based on O4rfish's case, and he then suddenly goes to scumread O4rfish completely out of the blue. It's https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176397.html#msg1176397 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176397.html#msg1176397) mostly.
-Dormio wasn't at L-1 for the longest time, so this is wrong.
-That's fine. What's not fine is when you say "I CAN'T SEE SCUM SAYING SOMETHING LIKE THIS" *keeps my vote on Oarfish regardless*. Why leave your vote in that case?
-...If both of the wagons were town. I already said this. Why would you need to make an empty unvote as town?
-Dropping your #1 scumread isn't scummy, it's the fact that you never deigned to mention this until you were called out for it. Again, why?
-How are my reads locked in place at all?
-Seriously?
-Fuck you, I already explained why I was non conclusive. It's because a player I was null on for the entire game was still null after I ISOed him. This is such a farfetched conclusion, like how would I not know whether or not I'd want to bus him as scum when he was the leading wagon. Probably wouldn't annoy me as much if it wasn't hypocritical as fuck considering your own read on Dr. Rawr.
-How is my position on Oarfish bad.
You're literally just nitpicking several of my points (most of your scumread is based off of like one post) without bothering to analyze the rest of my content (no, reads being locked in place isn't good enough). This is a far cry from when you analyzed literally all of my posts in Code Geass (obviously not expecting you to make a similar level on analysis because of time reasons but yeah). You're either scum or caught up in a serious case of confirmation bias.
Are you reading my posts? I unvoted Oarfish because I didn't believe his scumslip was a scumslip, and SB's explanation of what he was actually saying didn't seem like something I could see scum saying. That's also why I cut the dude a lot of slack on D2, although some of his posts today are just ugh. Never did I say "wow, my case on Oarfish is now invalid", fuck I even said that I still viewed his earlier posts as scummy.
The first two points are reflections on eachother. Mid-phase, my vote is there to apply pressure while I collect my thoughts. End-phase, my vote is off while I briefly try to collect my thoughts.
I got tired of seeing nobody else finding SkyPaladin scummy and I'm not going to do all of the work myself when if people don't agree with me early on, all they'll get is me repeating myself repeating myself repeating myself
-Just kinda feel like you're locked in place on your two current scumreads and you've got your head in the sand about other players
-Yea, srslybruh. I think it's extremely weird that you put "Dr Rawr" in there specifically. Don't care if it's being overly semantics-based, it's along the same premise of why I found SkyPaladin scummy in the first chunk of the game. Town tend to throw out reads and don't bother with specifics quite as often while scum are pretty much obligated to force their reads and positions on other players. This line reads forced, ergo, scummy.
- :( though I don't follow how your Nullread->Nullread and my Nullread->Townread are hypocritical of eachother?
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I pulled a Dan and forgot this game existed.
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I don't get Zak's BT vote. It felt like a lot of buzzwords being thrown around without a real case. I also feel like the switch to Eli is weird.
I uh... don't really have much to say. Mafia sucks? I think Eli's last post is a bit better so I'm not sure if I would lynch him over Zak at this point.
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Well, uh.
##Unvote
##Vote: Zakeri
That was underwhelming.
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WAIT SHIT IT WAS AN HOUR EARLY
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Hammer stop
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Sage Zakeri (6): BT, O4rfish, Serela, NekoNekoRex, Elieson, SB (L-0!)
Elieson (3): Refa, Sky Paladin, Sage Zakeri
BT (1): Shadoweh
Zakeri was too cool for this game. He was a Vanilla Townie.
It is now Night 3. You have 24 hours and 20 minutes to send in your night actions (slowly pushing the deadline back).
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SB was found Seriously Dead. He was a Vanilla Townie.
It is now Day 4. With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. If a townie is lynched today, they will be able to ##Kill a player of their choice. You have 72 hours to decide on a lynch.
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I'd like everybody on the Zak wagon to explain in 50 words or less why Zak was a better lynch than Eli.
In the meantime, I'll seriously consider self voting in LYLO so I can shoot Serela. Choices, choices...
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Sky, I'm pretty sure it's not LYLO unless I miscounted the numbers?
Also what the fuck was up with that SB kill? His quickhammer made me doubt my townread on him (and I'm probably not the only one), so I'm not sure what scum has to gain by killing his slot. Going to look into that as well as the Zak wagon. Elieson, to answer your question from earlier, it's both (frustration with you and you being scummy)? I'll reevaluate my read on you (and yes, answer your questions) just in case I'm letting my emotions get the better of me or something like that.
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It's not LYLO. I just can't count. Well there goes my dream of baiting scum to quickhammer me, thus exposing them so I could shoot them.
That was actually my plan from the start of the game .___.
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SkyPaladin you seem to try to find Gotchas a bit too much :V Scumteams are generally talking about stuff like that in the QT enough to where it's super unlikely they'd lack the foresight and quickhammer.
Anyway I think my case near the end of d3 against Zak serves as the answer to your question?
Refa:The quickhammer was bad but nowhere near as scummy as you seem to be making it out to be. SB wasn't really an existent scumread of anyone and there actually was quite little danger of Ellie being lynched over Zak if SB voting Ellie didn't actually want Ellie lynched. In fact, SB desiring Zak over Ellie would make it practically impossible to lynch Ellie. There'd be no reason for scum to tactically quickhammer; some risk, but basically no logical gain?
Lynchings... :T Hmm. I need to reread Refa at some point today. Ellie and BT are contenders, the former of which also needs a reread. And Shadoweh still isn't a townread. NNR/SkyPal still are town and O4rfish is probably town as well, I forgot if I ever mentioned that?
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Eh, Refa's reactions to stuff make it sound like he's not scum. I'll keep putting off any indepth analysis because it's probably not necessary and there's bigger fish to fry.
Okay, I guess I'm not convinced enough about BT/Ellie to call them big fish, but I can easily see them slipping scum, at least... :T At least BT? I probably want to vote BT. But I'll be doing rereads before that.
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imo Zak lacked a townie drive and most of his votes were reactionary or lackluster in general. He didn't really try even when he was going to be lynched, so a scum flip seemed likely in the same vein as rawr.
Anyway cool my Oarfish scumread still carries with the Zak lynch. So let's continue with that
##Vote: Oarfish
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The problem with NNR is that they have yet to include a valid reason as to why they think the person is scum.
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Perhaps we should lynch one of NNR/Oarfish, and then if we're wrong, they'll shoot the other. Then we can be done with this cut and paste silliness.
Otoh getting everybody's "who you would shoot" pick might narrow down our pool very easily.
I'd probably shoot Serela/Elieson.
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Lynching NNR or SkyPal is a ridiculous proposition in the first place, you don't go around lynching townies just so they can get a shot. ;_; And most people support that NNR is town? Oh wait. SB died. I'm running out.
Maybe I should vote Ellie over BT because I can better trust in BT's future actions even if they-are- coming from scum? I'd probably be lynching Ellie after BT anyway.
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D2 votals alone os a strong argument for NNRtown, we've been over this. Play wise I'd far sooner lynch BT than NNR.
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Since I know it's going to be asked, I'd be shooting between the people I've been talking about wanting lynched, of course. BT/Ellie/Shadoweh. Which one is more likely? No idea, there's an entire day between now and then and I both need to do rereads and see more Shadoweh content get made.
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My scumreads are BT for meta, Elie for a bland sort of scumminess, and NNR because I just can't see Town tunneling this hard with so little content.
I'd probably shoot BT just because vig->lurker.
Most people have expressed a willingness to lynch Elie, and with me gone people could finally get a clear read on NNR.
I'm fairly well convinced the two remaining scum are in that pool of three players.
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I'll shoot whoever the fuck I want. Zak lynch was pretty bad. You know, SB, I was HERE just as you hammered. :<
##Vote: BT Get rekted droopy dragonite. Elie would still make a good lynch. Refa doesn't seem to be being townread by anyone, can people explain in a nutshell why he's townie to them to me?
Serela, you are not going to lynch me because you know I'm town. Are you scum? You keep making me nervous about you, seriously cut it out.
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I'd like everybody on the Zak wagon to explain in 50 words or less why Zak was a better lynch than Eli.
In the meantime, I'll seriously consider self voting in LYLO so I can shoot Serela. Choices, choices...
in 10 words or less
What else did you expect from me?
Though my personal opinion is that Zak was too easy of a mislynch for scum to just hop on and ride towards a lynch. Just a thought worth noting I guess
Also I wouldn't mind voting you if you have solid reads and your shot is worth throwing out
Sky, I'm pretty sure it's not LYLO unless I miscounted the numbers?
Also what the fuck was up with that SB kill? His quickhammer made me doubt my townread on him (and I'm probably not the only one), so I'm not sure what scum has to gain by killing his slot. Going to look into that as well as the Zak wagon.
IMO SB was bring pretty townread all game. I'm not surprised he was shot, and honestly I feel like he was universally townread by the majority of the game. Like, I can't remember the last time he was brought up by anybody for being scummy.
if I were to be lynched, I would shoot, with some level of confidence, between SkyPaladin (though, SkyPaladin confidence is rather...outdated at this point i dunno he keeps doing things I don't like since D2 started but I think it's a conflict of opinion and his general playstyle and attitude that I am having a hard time differentiating between scummy/needlessly irritating)
and
........I really don't know. I have little things in the back of my head telling me that O4rfish is probably town because he reminds me of a guy who's town playstyle is erratic confusing and it's also like what I do because people yell at me for having dumb logic and doing dumb things but it makes sense to me just not anybody else...maybe Shadoweh for just being an overall forgetful slot and Vigs tend to clear out the possible lurkscum while lynches handle the actual scumreads? Refa maybe, though I'm hoping things cool down on his side and when he provides reads and stuff that I can tell for a fact aren't influenced by emotion [towards me at least] then I'll have a better grasp of his likely alignment
Yes like all of the people I'd shoot, I lack the confidence in pursuing a shot for because ##waffle
*Edit*
Shadoweh would you mind dropping a bit more you know, accuracy with your whoever you want to shoot? Like, just say me since "Zak got lynched and it was bad and Elie should've been lynched that's why I was voting BT all along" or some shit, just so we can grasp where you're at
Actually this post makes me feel more comfortable with putting a bullet through Shadoweh's head if I'm lynched today
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I'll shoot whoever the fuck I want. Zak lynch was pretty bad.
Serela, you are not going to lynch me because you know I'm town. Are you scum? You keep making me nervous about you, seriously cut it out.
Like these parts are pretty bad.
- The willingness to work with town and give us something to work with are apparently negligible
- Thanks for that amazing contribution on why the Zak lynch was bad
- Nobody knows you're town bro so the snark really isn't helping your position here unless that's how you handle communication which is cool because I can try to speak in snark back to you
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Neko and Oarfish are probably slapfighting. If there was scum there it'd be Oars over NNR.
Though my personal opinion is that Zak was too easy of a mislynch for scum to just hop on and ride towards a lynch. Just a thought worth noting I guess
Did you mean so easy of a lynch that scum could just hop on and ride it, because Zak being too easy for scum to vote doesn't make cognitivee sense.
Shadoweh would you mind dropping a bit more you know, accuracy with your whoever you want to shoot? Like, just say me since "Zak got lynched and it was bad and Elie should've been lynched that's why I was voting BT all along" or some shit, just so we can grasp where you're at
Actually this post makes me feel more comfortable with putting a bullet through Shadoweh's head if I'm lynched today
That's an interesting depiction of what I did in your head. No, I have no interest in helping people line up lynches. Are you going to vote me and see if I'd return the favor on you? Your threats are weak without you truly driving your ship into the Shadowehburg.
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Ellie's post made me realize I don't want him in control of the town vengeful if he flips town. Sorry!
##Vote BT
If BT flips scum, that's awesome, but if he flips town I can still trust the vig shot is in good hands.
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Yes @shadoweh. Judging at how Zak was at least a scumread by the majority of the playerbase, IMO scum tying themselves to a lynch on town!zak would do nothing but make them look bad. Hell, it's been said by what three people since this day started?
Sure, I'll put my money where my mouth is
##Vote Shadoweh
I'd love to see what you think and why, instead of just listening to you be condescending to everyone. I'm sure you know I'm not scum, so you wouldn't waste your time voting for me. I am interested to see where your vote does end up
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I am interested to see where your vote does end up
but shadoweh is already voting bt
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Again that's a really weird way of looking at things. Because of the fact so many people were willing to vote Zak for negligible reasons, voting him and calling him scum is 'excusable'. I have no idea where you're coming from on that. You're suggesting the entire town flashwagoned onto a townie that was sinking. Did you know scum want to lynch townies to win the game?
I do speak in snark though, so I hope you weren't really hoping for that to go away. Your version of the inevitable "Shadoweh is a Wicked Witch" case warms the cockles of my heart. Since you seem to think I'm not voting town, maybe you should help me bus BT instead, that way you can get mislynched tomorrow by me AND get my scumbuddy today!
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sadly, i feel like BT's town.
Also fmpov unless the Nekorex (whom i still haven't examined sry) is scum, I don't think that anyone on the Zak wagon was really scum. I'm really not bothered by your methods of communication either, I just want to make sure i'm able to communicate with you in a way that we can both ascertain
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Ellie's post made me realize I don't want him in control of the town vengeful if he flips town. Sorry!
]##Vote BT[/b]
If BT flips scum, that's awesome, but if he flips town I can still trust the vig shot is in good hands.
That isn't a great way to look at things. I want to vote BT, but if he has no time to read the thread how will he know who to lava, assuming he flips Town (which I am not comfortable assuming)?
How about we just vote for who we think is Scum, and if that person turns out to be Town, then we can just hope for the best.
##Vote: BT
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How about we just vote for who we think is Scum, and if that person turns out to be Town, then we can just hope for the best.
Well, he's one of my top 3 scum suspects, and I'm not jumping to vote Shadoweh over either of the other two right now, so, that's still basically what I'm doing...
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NNR/Oarfish/Serela please rank the following players, in your estimation, on a scale of 'highest priority for scum to kill' and 'lowest priority for scum to kill' from a general Shrine Maiden meta-view.
1. NekoRex
2. Sky_Paladin
3. Shadoweh
4. Zakeri
5. Vhaltz
6. Bardiche
7. Dormio Ergo Sum
8. Selery
9. O4rfish
10. SB
11. Elieson
12. Refa
14. BT
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Also fmpov unless the Nekorex (whom i still haven't examined sry) is scum, I don't think that anyone on the Zak wagon was really scum. I'm really not bothered by your methods of communication either, I just want to make sure i'm able to communicate with you in a way that we can both ascertain
Me telling you things you don't want to hear is not the same as you not understanding me, and I dislike how you're conflating the two. You seem to understand perfectly that I communicated I don't plan to talk about who I would theoretically kill in a vengeful rage.
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Refa,
remember how well my super duper hours upon hours of tunnel casing worked out for me in Code Geass? I hard-tunneled two town and you, the town-sided ITP. Forgive me for changing up my methods after dropping what was probably my most effort-filled game since FE12, but understand that your frustration with my meta isn't going to net you an accurate scumread/townread. With as much as eclipse and Manix and others go on about how meta is a bad thing, are you holding your vote on me because you're scumreading me or because I'm frustrating you again?
I think we're playing another Everyone-is-mafia-mafia then :D
That's uh...actually a reasonable explanation, I hate you. Non sequitur, but you do mean FE11 Mafia, right? Eclipse and Manix and others are dumb because meta is a helpful way to read the intent of people who aren't going by the textbook scumtells (sometimes it's misapplied yes, but to disregard it entirely is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater) and people generally can't easily change their meta on the drop of the hat. I'm believing what you're saying here despite that because I've pretty much had to completely reevaluate my own play (do you remember Inception, fuck Inception), so I can get where you're coming from.
If that's the case, I've rolled the worst EiMM role ever, even worse than Even Night Vigilante.
I thought Rawr's behavior was townie. I couldn't find scum motivation in his actions, and I wasn't going to sheep the obvious "He's so bloody inactive" or borrow other people's cases. Based on my own interpretation of his play, I thought he was acting in a way that scum would never act as. Kinda like Psych
It's not indicative of alignment either way, sadly. However, that's all he did. Had he deathtunneled and done some other things of value, there would be more weight in his words.
I feel like he came up with justification later on. Put down a vote without expecting to get called out for it, then had to produce something to back up the vote he locked himself on to. The dude went on forever with piles and piles of logic and reasoning. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GO FROM "eh I'll vote X i guess" to "I voted him for reasons 1, 2, 3, 4, 4a-4b-4c and 5". You bring SOMETHING up early on, or state that you have legit reasons and then bring them up. Of course I read his justifications, and they feel like desperate grasping for straws at every little possible thing that could be possible to grasp at
His BT vote was based on O4rfish's case, and he then suddenly goes to scumread O4rfish completely out of the blue. It's https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176397.html#msg1176397 (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176397.html#msg1176397) mostly.
I'm still not seeing what you found so townie about Dr. Rawr. If you mean the lack of scum intent, then I can agree because my issues were moreso with his play (another reason I was kind of iffy on that lynch overall). But...why does that make him town?
I...still can't see town deathtunneling on Day 1, mreh (and him having other content would mean that he wasn't deathtunneling by like, definition, so that doesn't really disprove my point). Regardless, this seems like a difference in opinions over something that's actually telling to your alignment, so dropping it. Fair enough on Zak's retroactive justification, for whatever reason I wasn't interpreting it that way at the time. I'd have voted Zak for that myself, actually. The last part isn't scummy, though. Town can, will, and has in the past scumread two people who can't be scum with each other (even if I don't agree with it myself), so uh...yeah.
The first two points are reflections on eachother. Mid-phase, my vote is there to apply pressure while I collect my thoughts. End-phase, my vote is off while I briefly try to collect my thoughts.
I got tired of seeing nobody else finding SkyPaladin scummy and I'm not going to do all of the work myself when if people don't agree with me early on, all they'll get is me repeating myself repeating myself repeating myself
-Just kinda feel like you're locked in place on your two current scumreads and you've got your head in the sand about other players
-Yea, srslybruh. I think it's extremely weird that you put "Dr Rawr" in there specifically. Don't care if it's being overly semantics-based, it's along the same premise of why I found SkyPaladin scummy in the first chunk of the game. Town tend to throw out reads and don't bother with specifics quite as often while scum are pretty much obligated to force their reads and positions on other players. This line reads forced, ergo, scummy.
- :( though I don't follow how your Nullread->Nullread and my Nullread->Townread are hypocritical of eachother?
-Fair enough on the Dormio unvote, but you still haven't explained why you left your vote on Oarfish despite not seeing what he did as scummy. Explain?
-Makes sense, I suppose.
-Not really? I've been evaluating other peoples' cases and determining how sheepable they are. I get that usually I change my opinion a lot more as town, but I just felt confident about my opinions and prior flips didn't really do much to sway them either way (in retrospect, there might have been some confirmation bias but w/e).
-Uh...what? I don't follow.
-Sorry, that was probably way too strong for a forum game about fictionally lynching people. I just have feelings and I have to express them with the word fuck, OK? =( It's hypocritical because you should have understood where I was coming from. Maybe hypocritical is the wrong word here though, English sucks (much like mafia).
I've come to a decisive conclusion regarding you, and that's that I have no decisive conclusion at all (top tier level scumhunting, send me to the next GoMC). Like you've done things that are similar to your town meta, but you've also done things that I can't see you doing as town, and there's me being an idiot and getting frustrated, and it's all just one big huge mess. I'm...going to stop casing you until another scum flip (I KNOW it's not optimal play to ignore a potential scum, but in this case it's far better for the game state if I do so rather than continuously walling at Elieson and demotivating everyone else in the process...because fuck reading that shit) because everyone seems to have some sort of impression of you (a lot of them are scumreads, which is making me uncomfortable because I figure someone would have defended scum!you today considering town has a shot), which means that hopefully the associative reads will be the key to reading you properly.
Refa:The quickhammer was bad but nowhere near as scummy as you seem to be making it out to be. SB wasn't really an existent scumread of anyone and there actually was quite little danger of Ellie being lynched over Zak if SB voting Ellie didn't actually want Ellie lynched. In fact, SB desiring Zak over Ellie would make it practically impossible to lynch Ellie. There'd be no reason for scum to tactically quickhammer; some risk, but basically no logical gain?
I didn't say it was super scummy, just that it made me doubt my townread on him (which in turn, made me take another look at his posts). Of course he'd have something to gain, he'd be basically protecting his scumbuddy (Elieson) from a lynch while gaining little flak (considering how good he is, he can make obviously scummy plays and get away with refuge in audacity)...at least those were my thoughts. I was basically going to go into today with that mindset (didn't make a case because I figured I'd be the next one to get NKed), so it was pretty...frustrating to see how horribly wrong I was (also what made me decide to reevaluate Elieson, probably wouldn't have even bothered without that flip because I'm good, I swear).
My capacity for 11/11 associative reads aside, I also read through the Zak wagon. BT's vote was good (this is my problem with reading the dude, actually; he makes legitimately good cases that I can agree with, but he never follows up on them enough for me to feel more comfortable townreading him over most of the other players), Oarfish's vote on him was awful (he basically scumread Zak for being lazy which is NOT a scumtell), Serela and NNR's votes seemed more for consolidation than anything else (they had minor issues with the dude, but I feel like they both had stronger scumreads), Elieson was a "not me over me" which is strictly null (and I thought his actual case was fine for the most part), and SB's hammer was bad but he ended up flipping town anyways. Didn't end up reading into his death after all because he might just have been killed for not being an easy person to mislynch over his actual content, and I'm not really sure which one it was.
Would like people to explain their reasoning regarding their BT votes (basically the only reason I'm willing to vote BT at all is because almost every other player reads as townier to me), because it is INCREDIBLY frustrating for people to just say "##Vote: BT" with no explanation whatsoever. Work with me here, how am I supposed understand why he's scummy when basically my only issue from reading his content myself is "eh...other people look better, so I can see him as scum on PoE". If this is a meta read, then say something.
Anyways, voting Oarfish because of my reasoning yesterday (which he has not adequately responded too), and because it's the best place to put my vote. If he's scum, then not only am I the best but I can also safely rule out NNR and Elieson from being scum once and for all (NNR isn't as valuable since the only reason that I'd scumread him is just paranoia, but Elieson being psuedo cleared would be a godsend to me). If he's town, then he can just shoot BT or whatever. Probably could do the reverse as well if Town!BT promises to shoot Oarfish, who is pretty much the only scumread I feel confident on at this point in time. :3
As for who I'd shoot, it'd be either Oarfish or BT (...obviously); Oarfish because he's a scumread of mine and BT mostly because of PoE/townreads casing him (I was townreadng him previously, but everyone else except Elieson reads as townier at this point). Probably wouldn't be comfortable with shooting Elieson at this point unless he pulls a "Hey Refa, did you like my sunglasses?" out of nowhere, but if people take anything else from my reads, it's that he's most likely NOT SCUM with Oarfish (so if I drop dead on one of the following days and Oarfish has flipped scum, then no lyncherino).
##Vote: Oarfish
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My scumreads are BT for meta, Elie for a bland sort of scumminess, and NNR because I just can't see Town tunneling this hard with so little content.
I'd probably shoot BT just because vig->lurker.
Most people have expressed a willingness to lynch Elie, and with me gone people could finally get a clear read on NNR.
I'm fairly well convinced the two remaining scum are in that pool of three players.
It's just posts like these I don't know how you haven't been lynched yet. You have just stated, your reasons here for having scumreads are, literally:
-BT because of meta (supposedly the lurker scum meta)
-Me, for lack of content. I'm not even going to go deep into this because it's just plain wrong, but considering I've been highly active the whole game and have consistently posted about most of the players living, that's just a no.
-Elie, not because YOU think he's scum, but because other people do.
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Should I need to even explain how that's scummy? It's beyond lazy. It's barely fathomable.
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Ellie's post made me realize I don't want him in control of the town vengeful if he flips town. Sorry!
##Vote BT
If BT flips scum, that's awesome, but if he flips town I can still trust the vig shot is in good hands.
This is actually a really horrible post, Serela. If you're voting based on who you'd rather have the vig shot, your vote isn't grounded in conviction the player will flip scum.
Now I'm going to have to reevaluate my read on Serela because I want to vote her for that.
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See, I briefly considered that logic with Oarfish, since I know if he flips town he's going to shoot me despite that being a godawful waste of a vengeful kill nobody else agrees with, except the scum apparently (which makes me question why I haven't been nightkilled yet)
But then I realized that the logic is faulty because Oarfish is going to flip scum anyway, because he's a red-titled lying scumbag.
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It's just posts like these I don't know how you haven't been lynched yet. You have just stated, your reasons here for having scumreads are, literally:
-BT because of meta (supposedly the lurker scum meta)
-Me, for lack of content. I'm not even going to go deep into this because it's just plain wrong, but considering I've been highly active the whole game and have consistently posted about most of the players living, that's just a no.
-Elie, not because YOU think he's scum, but because other people do.
Damn it, I knew I was forgetting something when I clicked "Post" while making that huge wall post. This post bothered me too, but for different reasons.
-I'm fine with him scumreading BT because of meta (meta reads are legit, yo), but it's just lazy when you've put zero effort into analyzing the person you're voting.
-His vote on you is what really bothered me here. For one, it just reads as an OMGUS, because he's only bothered to respond to your cases on him (and for some reason, only you; Oarfish, I'm scumreading you just as much as NNR and am even sheeping some of his reasoning, and yet you're not scumreading me...explain?) and hasn't really bothered to check out your interactions with flipped scum/other content of note. Overall, it just comes across as him tunneling you because he has too rather than through a natural progression of his own reads + thoughts.
-Yeah, this is part of the reason why I don't see Oarfish/Elieson as scumbuddies (he'd want some of that cred if he was bussing his scumbuddy).
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NNR/Oarfish/Serela please rank the following players, in your estimation, on a scale of 'highest priority for scum to kill' and 'lowest priority for scum to kill' from a general Shrine Maiden meta-view.
Bardiche
SB
BT
Vhaltz
Dormio Ergo Sum
Shadoweh
Refa
NekoRex
Zakeri
Sky_Paladin
O4rfish
Elieson
Selery
I tried, although it's probably mostly wrong since I don't put much thought into meta? I tend to get lynched rather then NK'd since I'm a loose cannon, whereas Bard usually is pretty good at convincing people who he thinks is scum (and if he gets a good mark it's game over). Most of the stuff on the top are based on general skill level as opposed to the ones on the bottom who are lynch fodder.
Serela's least likely of all of us to be nightkilled since everyone knows if Serela survives to LYLO, the scum wins.
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@Mod: did BT get prodded LD3?
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no, I haven't really been paying attention to post times
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Day 4.1 - Votals
BT (3) - Shadoweh, Serela, O4rfish
O4rfish (2) - NekoRex, Refa
Shadoweh (1) - Elieson
Not Voting: BT, Sky_Paladin
You have 53 hours and 9 minutes remaining in the day. With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
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Proddodge.
##Vote Oarfish
The reason I say proddodge is because I haven't read the thread enough to say I know what I'm doing. This is the vote I'm the most confident about after yesterday... Votes Zak amidst the scumread he had on me for most of the game, despite me solo-casing Zak. The wording of the vote itself feels strongly "sheesh, I'll take this opportunity that has presented itself to me".
I'll throw around some questions too. Shadoweh, are you repeating the droopy dragon rhetoric because of my one post with Mafia Depression? I know I've been lurking but do you have an opinion on my play besides it lurks and it droops? The other thing that looks interesting is that Elie / Refa have both posted a bunch so I wonder if they have some sort of meta handle on each other at this point? Just a quick calm summary of their play vs what you'd expect from a town / scum slot.
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I'd really like to see Oarfish/Serela's lists of 'who scum wants to kill' to 'least' before the phase is over. And yes, it will help me decide where to vote.
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Sorry I've been waiting like 3 or 4 years for Devil of Decline in english and when I started it up I forgot all else for... the past 13 hours >.>;;
Oh, there was almost no posts anyway.
SkyPaladin I have no idea how you think you're going to get information that isn't unreliable from "who do you think is a high priority nightkill?", and that's at -best-, there's a whole slew of other issues with trying to scumhunt off something so goofy and pointless. Besides, what context are you even asking it in? You asked the question as though it's an "in general" thing, like just a ranking of who's the strongest players that scum should generally want to NK. But the best NK is so situational, because even in a mountainous game with no PRs, it depends on who they're suspecting, who you're planning on mislynching, and perhaps most of all, who's getting the hardest townread by most of the players.
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But I feel like answering anyway I guess.
BT, SB, and Bard would be up there I guess. The debate of Bard's accuracy isn't even highly relevant to that. Shadoweh somewhere after? Dormio can be strong but there tends to be an issue somewhere? I think it's about his attitude, not necessarily his reads or how strong a player he is, more about how his playstyle itself. Not that it's necessarily bad, just that it'd not lend itself to be top-priority-scumkill just for being Dormio. I don't know anything about Ellieson/Refa and it's their first game here, so, who knows on that end. Zakeri is usually too low presence to be a significant threat even if he's not exactly powerlurking. And then after that you're getting into players who tend to function on a different kind of logic than everyone else, so if they're a decent nightkill it's moreso because of PRs and situational matters of who suspects who, not because of meta. And yeah I do mean like half the playerlist here.
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oops I forgot nnr
he'd be after dormio? or maybe before? he seems to be in conflict or something similar a lot so that takes him down a notch after all
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That's a reasonable question and I appreciate you humoring it. I'll explain what's going on after I get Oarfish's list.
Probably I'm not interested in a BT lynch today.
I'll get time to re read the thread around 20 hours from now, til then I'm phone posting.
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Where would you place Mitsuki/Vhaltz?
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I think you could judge kill priority based on two angles: the general townness other players view them as, and how effective they are at lynching scum (meaning Scum would have to get rid of them or get lynched).
Actual Kills:
Vhaltz - Seems like Mitsuki was sort of medium on Townness. I haven't played a game with Vhaltz or watched a game he played in, so I don't really have a basis to judge how good a kill on defense this was.
Bard - high for townness, high for defense. I personally have a high opinion on how well Bard can scumhunt, and it would seem that opinion may have also been held by Scum.
SB - According to SB himself, he was obvtown, but I think the number of players who saw him as Town was about average. Very active in late phase organizing the lynches, so high for defense if Scum wants to no-lynch.
NNR: high priority according to obvtownness, but he is only attacking one player so for defense it would depend on whether that player is Scum (which he isn't).
Skypal: high for townness. Moderate to low for defense.
Shadoweh: moderate to low for townness, but pretty low for defense.
Zak: Low for townness (obviously!), low for defense.
Dormio: Fairly low for townness. For defense - I don't really know. When's the last time Dormio survived to the endgame?
Serela: Moderate for townness, really low for defense. Pretty sure Scum don't fear Serela lynching them.
Oarfish: Moderate to low for townness. I can't really speak to my own Scumhunting ability, and I imagine that's true for everybody.
Elieson: Low for townness. Hasn't been influential in the lynches, so probably low for defense.
Refa: Pretty high for Townness at this point.
Rawr: was in fact scum.
BT: Low for Townness, and low for influence even though his scumhunting ability is usually good.
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NNR: Let's say someone forced you to entertain the possibility that Oarfish is Town. Who are your picks for Rawr's 2 scumbuddies?
BT: same question, assuming you even read this post.
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NNR: Let's say someone forced you to entertain the possibility that Oarfish is Town. Who are your picks for Rawr's 2 scumbuddies?
BT: same question, assuming you even read this post.
My immediate gut thought is Serela and one of Elieson/Shadoweh. From rereading Shadoweh and Elieson, though, my money is going down on Shadoweh.
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Yeah the interactions between them kinda scream scumbuddies and it would be actually really hard to ignore if Oarfish happened to not exist in the game.
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Like, I'm tempted to run a Surprise Gut Lynch on Serela right now just to see what happens.
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Also Oarfish based on your recent post have you finally accepted me as NekoRex your lord and obvtown, righteous defender of all that is good and truthy?
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because that seems like a weird 180 from yesterday
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To be clear, though, we're not lynching BT today, because BT probably isn't scum
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If we're going to throw out insane bullshit here, I'm just going to point out that maybe I haven't been nightkilled yet because I'm tunneling Oarfish endlessly and that's exactly what scum wants me to be doing if Oarfish is town.
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And with that I'm going to bed because it's nearly 5 AM and I wasted 2 hours on random shit again instead of sleeping like I should be.
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(I lied)
Can someone make me a case that Oarfish isn't scum and is just utterly clueless town that for the life of him is completely unable to make a decent scum case on anyone? Is that anywhere in his meta?
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#JustLateNightMafiaThings
Seriously am going to check back in the morning though
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Does Bard seriously try and get me lynched every game?
Like, I'm reading back and I swear it happens every single fucking time.
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Apparently the meta of Bard is that either he thinks I'm obvtown or irredeemable scum and there is no middle ground whatsoever
I'm glad I have cleared that up for myself.
Eventually I will go to bed never
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Actually I forgot I am thinking about Schezo, not bard.
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*Schezo tries to get me lynched every game, I mean
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No, the question had a different purpose. Your response doesn't quite fit into either of the two categories I was anticipating, so it doesn't help me decide.
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I feel like I've fallen behind but when 80% of the posts are SpamSpamRex's posts I suddenly don't feel so bad. I feel like the game's kinda at a standstill SkyPaladin how much longer will it take before you answer your own question with a vote?
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Dude
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I mean that in the most honest way possible and it's ok you haven't outspammed Manix yet
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About an hour, I think.
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nah, we still have a day
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I'll throw around some questions too. Shadoweh, are you repeating the droopy dragon rhetoric because of my one post with Mafia Depression? I know I've been lurking but do you have an opinion on my play besides it lurks and it droops? The other thing that looks interesting is that Elie / Refa have both posted a bunch so I wonder if they have some sort of meta handle on each other at this point? Just a quick calm summary of their play vs what you'd expect from a town / scum slot.
I can't have just wanted to make you post? If it makes you feel better I thought the immediate follow of votes on you looked horrible. <_<
Do you not know who Droopy Dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droopy) is? Your only post yesterday oozed with the feeling you don't want to be here. I suspect you would be apathetic as either alignment but a scum lynch really should cheer you up a little if you're winning as your last game as town, you know? I just want you to get involved. You're the only MotK native left I would call strong and you're not giving me anything to bounce off of. Do you not think Serela's vote on you was worse then Oarfish's?
Neko when was the last time you were nightkilled? >.> On the note of nightkills, I'm asking about Refa because all three nightkills are cross-SF kills so the only person left who knows him and Elie is each other. It's possibly coincidencal (I would have nightkilled the same people) and his big fat posts make me feel like I'm being paranoid.
Usually I use the summary below to affect what I post but right now it's full of Neko's posts so I'm going to post this and look back. <_<
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Hrmmgblargh. Made it to my break. OK let's dance!
So the reason I asked *those players* for a list is because I felt that the night kills weren't related to current game state, but instead game meta; look at these deaths:
Night 1 - Mitsuki/Vhaltz
Night 2 - Bard
Night 3 - SB.
Look at the player rankings from Neko/Serela/Oarfish;
NNR:
Bardiche - dead
SB - dead
BT
Vhaltz - dead
Dormio Ergo Sum - dead
Selera:
BT/Bard/SB (ok/dead/dead)
Shadoweh/Dormio (ok/dead)
*conspicious absence of Mitsuki*
Oarfish
I can't actually work out his list priority.
Overall:
Many of the players currently in the game have never played with Vhaltz, but it seems we have somebody picking kills based on meta, because why SB. So we're looking for a long time player of the game -> Shadoweh or BT.
Since I'm looking for players who are aware that the deaths were based on meta, I'm looking for a player who tries in some way to obfuscate/edge around this. I generally feel NNR's list is accurate and honest. While I feel Serela is bad for missing a core player in the game, Oarfish didn't properly answer the question.
I'm town reading NNR. I don't think BT is scum despite his low content; and with all three of Serela/Oarfish/Neko all putting BT at a high threat index (note Oarfish put him at low but 'usually' high) I wonder if that's not the basis for the current votes on him.
I am townreading Refa. I'm still out on Eli. Now diving into the thread, brb.
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Day 4.2 - Votals
BT (3) - Shadoweh, Serela, O4rfish
O4rfish (3) - NekoRex, Refa, BT
Shadoweh (1) - Elieson
Not Voting: Sky_Paladin
You have 25 hours and 7 minutes remaining in the day. With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
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Sky: Both Elie and Refa have played with them on Serene Forest, FYI. If that affects whatever it is you're doing.
Serela I'm starting to look at BT's wagon as 'is Serela bussing or not bussing?' You called NNR and Sky P town and didn't want to vote BT because:
Lynching NNR or SkyPal is a ridiculous proposition in the first place, you don't go around lynching townies just so they can get a shot. ;_; And most people support that NNR is town? Oh wait. SB died. I'm running out.
Maybe I should vote Ellie over BT because I can better trust in BT's future actions even if they-are- coming from scum? I'd probably be lynching Ellie after BT anyway.
Does Elie seem like a bad player from what you've been seeing here? I would trust him with a vig if he were town. BT is disengaged, I suspect he wouldn't make as good a shot as someone with more time to read. What I'm really wondering is where was your vote yesterday when you were voting Zak for being Zak instead?
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Does Elie seem like a bad player from what you've been seeing here? BT is disengaged, I suspect he wouldn't make as good a shot as someone with more time to read. What I'm really wondering is where was your vote yesterday when you were voting Zak for being Zak instead?
From Ellie's d2 I came to that conclusion :T I mean it's not that he can't be good since this is a very small frame of reference but the guy sat around doing nothing the whole day voting BT for hammering 5 minutes before deadline.
I'm not entirely sure how to parse the question? I wrote up why Zak looked like bad. His play got lazier each day until on D3 it really just looked like he was trolling people, and looked completely apathetic of game state. Since when is that town zak meta?
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How would people feel about a Serela lynch? I know Skypal is up for it, but I want to know who else would be.
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You say that BT looks like disengaged town, but disengaged town is what scum would look like if they're playing well but not awesomely, isn't it? The game is a little stagnant anyway so I guess it'd be hard to do more.
Wait, is that supposed to be a point against or towards BT scum, I'm not even sure and I'm the one who just said it. >:T
O4rfish doesn't look like as scummy to me after the last couple days, and I'm not sure I'd trust him with a vig. Oh crap and he might be lynched today. ;_; I forgot who he said he suspects but I remember being on the list, maybe I should reread some of his recent posts.
cut by augh
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You people really think I actively shoved rawr from 0 to turbolynched just for powerbussing? ;_____;
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plz make proper case on me so I may refute
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It's mostly gut but the post that really got me thinking was your BT vote, and your posts since then, since you're not playing to find scum, you're playing to find which player is the most reliable vigger if flipped town.
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What, no.
I'm doing that based on the people I already think are scum.
THESE PEOPLE WERE ALREADY MY SCUMREADS BEFORE TODAY ;_;
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Why are you so worried about who gets the vig, then? What's your opinion of Oarfish?
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You people really think I actively shoved rawr from 0 to turbolynched just for powerbussing? ;_____;
And yeah, I mean I bought into it, and Rawr was worthless to scum, so why not?
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See, here's my thoughts.
You want to lynch BT. If BT is lynched and flips town, then he'll shoot Oarfish. And if Shadoweh is your scumbuddy, you've successfully gotten two townies dead with no consequence to you.
Then it's LYLO, and scum always wins Serela LYLO.
The fun part is you're waffling on your own BT read so it's really obvious what you're doing.
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I'm obvtown on D3, a full day after a scumlynch, so obviously scum expects to know what I'm going to do.
Therefore, the best plan is to do exactly the opposite of what they suspect 8)
##Unvote
##Vote: Serela
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Things:
Oarfish (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174861.html#msg1174861) changed vote in RVS to Dormio.
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174890.html#msg1174890) "I'm their third scumbuddy" (Dormio/Mits now dead) votes Dormio after Oarfish.
Elie (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174913.html#msg1174913) third on Dormio wagon.
Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174950.html#msg1174950) votes me for "I don't 100% believe Serela is scum"; which in hindsight is why scum!Rawr lated voted me.
Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174986.html#msg1174986) appeal to meta, "Is Bard usually this abrasive?"
Rawr (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175004.html#msg1175004) sheeps Eli on Sky. Sky is applying pressure to Serela at this stage.
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175017.html#msg1175017) Dormio vote "Since it somewhat matters in this situation- yeah, the Dormio vote was vaguely serious, but only enough to get over RVS tier vote strength", which was the basis of why Mits/Sky were scumreading Serela. Quickly followed by vote!Sky+sheep Eli.
Dan/Shadoweh (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175287.html#msg1175287) - townreads on Mits/Sky/NNR.
Mitsuki (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175306.html#msg1175306) wall on Serela which Serela ignored to focus on my accusation of her lying.
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175344.html#msg1175344) threat to replace out because *pressure* summarises Serela's day 1 actually.
Oarfish (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175502.html#msg1175502) bizarre post?
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175525.html#msg1175525) throwing suspicion on the Oarfish wagon/appeal to audience instead of questioning Oarfish directly.
Oarfish (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175546.html#msg1175546) check out of the game post. Still bad even now.
BT (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175606.html#msg1175606) votes Oarfish over Dormio. We know Dormio flips town and is rated more dangerous than Oarfish -> likely a town BT from this.
Dan (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175609.html#msg1175609) conversely still happy with Dormio lynch.
Mits (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175648.html#msg1175648) summarises what Oarfish' give up looks like.
Dan (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175654.html#msg1175654) - odd self contradiction from Dan:
I disagree with every argument so far saying that oarish is scum, from bardiche on down to mitsuki. He isn't a town read though. I still stink sky is town
And offers to hammer.
Refa (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175675.html#msg1175675) deciding the lynch on town!Dormio. If Oarfish later flips scum, this post needs further examination.
Sky (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175904.html#msg1175904) - I asked a question to NNR/Rawr/Elieson, who all failed to vote for one of Dormio or Oarfish. Since at least one scum was found off-wagon, this may have some weight.
SB (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176330.html#msg1176330) scumteam - Eli > NNR > Rawr
Oarfish (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176464.html#msg1176464) this post admits that NNR vote was more to see result from pressure than from a scum read, then agrees with Bard that NNR is scum. Appears to be the start of (manufactured) NNR scum read. Probably scum Oarfish in this post.
NNR (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176513.html#msg1176513) 180 unvote from Oarfish/vote on SB. Seems reactive to SB's list; NNR has very twitch votes this game. NNR does out lay a case though so it's not clearly bad.
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176566.html#msg1176566) "I can't blame Shadoweh's read on me" not the Serela I know.
Serala's possible scumteam: "NNR/Rawr/___" followed up with vote on Rawr. NNR has more votes at this stage though, so if she really believed in it, should have been a vote on NNR.
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176595.html#msg1176595) justifies vote on Rawr over NNR. Hrm..
Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176650.html#msg1176650) response to sudden Rawr wagon emergence, "Let's lynch Sky."
Rawr (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176651.html#msg1176651) vote on NNR/sheep Bard.
I think this interaction (Elie votes Sky/Rawr votes NNR) is worth considering in greater detail. Elie wrote a great deal in her post; votes me after a Rawr wagon comes in to existence. It would have been easier to vote NNR - Rawr did it. Rawr also did not sheep Eli on to me, which is what I would have expected if they were scum buddies.
***
NNR (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177249.html#msg1177249) - some good questioning of Oarfish.
Oarfish (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177593.html#msg1177593) - after arguing with NNR for some time, suddenly votes Zak. Mollified somewhat that NNR also votes Zak later - the two continue fighting for the rest of the thread. Make out already.
Shadoweh (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177665.html#msg1177665) - Meta post. I hate everything about it.
Shadoweh (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177900.html#msg1177900) at least votes not!Zak.
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177931.html#msg1177931) a whole page of foreshadowing, voting, and retro-actively justifying. Bad.
Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178057.html#msg1178057) ditches her vote on Refa, forgets her Sky scum read, and votes Zak. Bad, except Eli is the counterwagon to Zak, so, it'd be hard to draw purely scum motivation out of it.
***today***
Serela (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178336.html#msg1178336) "I can better trust in BT's future actions even if they-are- coming from scum?" and then "Play wise I'd far sooner lynch BT than NNR."
Many cuts. Hitting post and reviewing.
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Why are you so worried about who gets the vig, then? What's your opinion of Oarfish?
I'm not but I have little else to worry about. Also haven't I repeatedly said I think his more play the last couple days is more likely a town o4rfish? Maybe not today as much but at least yesterday, plus all the effort on d2 even if it was obfuscating as F, I think O4rfish is town now.
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I'm not but I have little else to worry about.
it's also just in general a nice thing for "hmmm person A could be scum or B could be scum, A is getting a lot of votes and if we're wrong it's not as bad, B you're unsure about and if you're wrong that'd might be really bad, hmmm which should I pick"
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Reflecting on *things*
We can't have an Oarfish in LYLO, period. He is too big of a liability. I'm also feeling that Oarfish is keeping his cards to his chest. Who are his scum reads?
General flakiness on reads, voting. This one (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176464.html#msg1176464) indicates he was scum reading NNR because he was sheeping Bard, rather than on his own basis. That means the arguments with NNR may have been fabricated.
Probably my main proponent for a lynch today. If we're wrong, he would shoot BT for lurking. Not my preferred shot.
I'd like to shoot:
Shadoweh: No real content. Meta comments/not focused on game state. Slot actually decreased in activity since Dan replaced out! Passive/reactive Shadoweh looks like scum!Shadoweh.
Eli: Mainly interactions/votes that line up well with Eli/Rawr scum buddies.
Serela: I'm pretty sure I caught scum!Serela on day 1 with her lying about Dormio/Sky votes, and I feel like my epic destiny is to self-lynch in LYLO and shoot her for great justice.
But more seriously - I feel Serela's vote on Zak and posturing around that vote on day 3 makes me uncomfortable. Additionally, a number of posts concern me.
Calls out Oarfish for calling out BT for lurking (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175525.html#msg1175525)
Wait, O4rfish is accusing BT of lurking? He hasn't made a large amount of posts, but the ones he has made are some of the best things in the game.
and here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176595.html#msg1176595):
And I don't even know what the case behind the BT wagon -is-
Contrast with today's BT vote (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178350.html#msg1178350):
If BT flips scum, that's awesome, but if he flips town I can still trust the vig shot is in good hands.
Focus is on "Don't get shot", not "I think BT is scum."
When asked "Who would you shoot, Serela?" responded with BT/Ellie/Shadoweh. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178339.html#msg1178339)
Scum picks do appear foreshadowed so this isn't as cut and dry as I'd like.
***
Feels like Shadoweh/Oarfish scum to me at the moment.
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I'm confident we can lynch scum!Shadoweh in LYLO. I don't want her lynched this day phase. I don't mind if she gets shot. She won't be missed :V
I feel that Oarfish is the biggest liability right now. If we can lynch a scum this day phase, then we've got one more shot at volcano love in LYLO, which would make for a great finish.
Serela is a problem. I still don't like Eli but I think the slot has improved.
If we mislynched Oarfish, I'd like him to shoot Serela. If we lynched scum!Oarfish, then we can play this game again in the next day phase.
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I'll make a more detailed post later on when I actually have the time to be making a post (really should be studying for a midterm now lol), but here are my current reads.
Town
Refa- No duh, Sherlock.
NNR- The only way he could be scum is if there were scum/scum wagons on D2, and besides that his actual content itself has improved like significantly (or maybe it's just me confirmation biasing less after I reevaluated my read on him following Dr. Rawr's flip).
Sky Paladin- My strongest townread based purely on content. Not really sure what more to say here, I think my only issue is that he's been hesitant to put down a vote, but it's not scummy (just seems like bad play, although I've done the same myself so I probably shouldn't be complaining about him).
Shadoweh- I uh...don't really get the scumreads on her? Either she plays like an SSS scumgame or is probably town. Like, I was more eh on her earlier, but her most recent posts are good (what stood out to me is that I don't see her saying "I'd make these same kills as scum" as scum...I don't really know her meta, but it seems like it'd be a really ballsy thing to say regardless), and she's like the only person who explained her BT vote (and it was good, thanks). Please explain.
Null
Selery- Was townreading her for the whole game, but I feel like I haven't made a serious effort to analyze this slot since like D1, so dropping here moreso to show that I am going to ISO him rather than because I suddenly thought the slot was scummier.
Elieson- I don't even know anymore. Would like him to actually make a post today because I can't even tell what his thoughts are anymore, and that's annoying me.
BT- Moreso here because of PoE, since I was townreading his earlier posts, but his lack of followups + Shadoweh's case + all of my other townreads being townier makes me less sure about his slot overall. Probably should ISO him just to make sure though, I don't like my second highest scumread being a null read either.
Scum
Oarfish- Already explained this in enough detail, my only issues are 1) Not sure who makes sense as Oarfish's scumbuddy and 2) Do they really play like this as town? I'm uh, unfamiliar with the meta here, so not sure what to make of NNR saying that.
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Skypal: any reason you think for scum keeping me alive post-rawr?
I can get behind a 'if Oarfish flips town then shoot Serela', since Oarfish scum still makes very much sense as far as his content, it's just been bugging me I'm still alive and I don't like the BT wagon or the people on it.
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SkyPal, your quotes were from D1 and the very start of d2... you think it's weird that my read of BT isn't the same that it was on D1? >_>; I've said plenty of things about BT since then.
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Like seriously SkyPal, you go "Look! Serela thought BT was really town D1! But... LOOK! Now Serela's voting BT! Terrible!" and you ignore that I've actually changed my read on BT forever ago with actual words.
I should probably link to them but I'm really lazy and you're far too stuck on your "Serela lied and lied and lied and told me he lied more!" from d1 to possibly change your mind anyway :V Besides you probably know they happened already?
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NNR
Skypal: any reason you think for scum keeping me alive post-rawr?
Serela/your own threat assessment is generally in line with my own. SB/BT higher scum priority targets. That's why I'm :V at the BT votes.
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I don't understand what you just said. :C What does BT being a player scum may likely consider for an NK in general game meta, have to do with me voting him right now?
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Because, I didn't say 'night kill'. I said 'priority target'.
Hey look where all my main scum picks are voting!
BT (3) - Shadoweh, Serela, O4rfish
That's why.
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Well, I guess that makes sense. :T Darn.
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I actually keep trying to come up with a better response then that but I can't. Damn. I didn't think that would happen.
Well, it's bedtime for me.
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Expect little from me until now because i dunno I've just been getting my groove back also been really busy with my daughter since yesterday.
I'VE COME TO DECLARE THAT I'm feeling like my reads are fucked up; but
Don't really want to Lynch
Serela: No point in heading up the Rawr wagon, or even messing around with it. Day 1 debacle with SkyPaladin and Mitsuki left him acting how I would expect town to act; cornered and pissed
BT: Expected townie-style of play and maybe I just have tunnelvision on him for townreads for days but his sparse posts just come across with a natural feel and town intent behind them
Elie: Yea I mean I wouldn't mind having a bullet to fire but the last time I played a volcanic game I ended up shooting badplay mctownlurker so my motivation to not have the shot is based on failed past too yes i'm meta-casing myself if you're gonna lynch me just do it when I'm not responsible for shooting
Might Lynch for at least consolidation
SkyPaladin: Really improved content offsets the sour taste of Day 1.
Refa: Returned to his classic meta, which is something that doesn't normally happen, also I feel like his condensed list of reads like 5 posts up is accurate enough to get him by, and he hasn't done /that/ much in terms of scummy activity
NekoRex: A fairly decent earlygame but I feel like not much of it is conviction. O4rfish case was probably the most solid thing about early game but less contribution as the game goes on? Idk. Considering the volume of posts, I'm not feeling it after two readthroughs of his ISO. I feel like his Selery inquires, while decent, are just filler presentation. Those kinds of lines really giving you a reason to vote for Selery but you're acting like they are and it's just not right. You're better than this, you can find actual reasons to vote for Selery, rather than having the "final straw" be related to double-edged sword questioneering
Wouldn't mind Lynching
O4rfish: I'm feeling like it's just a wasted effort trying to interpret record breaking waffling and crackpot theories that make Hitler look like a 5th grader doing a science fair. Couldn't handle SkyPaladin's questionairre, and that just doesn't add up. I wouldn't expect these two to be of the same alignment
Action Shadowdan: Didn't produce anything after our little debacle, and still never really cooperated with anything. That much paranoia from someone who speaks in such a way does not add up.
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wow I'm not actually in bed who's surprised I'm not ;_;
Elieson reminds me Shadoweh still isn't town and I should probably be paying more attention to her. I never really thought I'd encounter trouble with BT getting lynched and there's never been talk about actual interest in seriously doing a lynch on her (of course, she basically entered the game d3, so that helped :T), so I didn't mind putting her off for another day, but it's probably time to stop putting up excuses and actually reread her
tomorrow
after I go to bed
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Yeah, not seeing how my detailed answer to Skypal's bogus question makes me scummy in any respect.
"You were supposed to answer who Scum would kill based on all previous games but not this game" WTF?
I'm also feeling that Oarfish is keeping his cards to his chest. Who are his scum reads?
Are you trolling? I've made transparent scumreads in every day starting with d2.
Why would I even consider following the vig suggestions of someone who's reading half the players opposite of how I am?
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SB/BT higher scum priority targets. That's why I'm :V at the BT votes.
Scum ain't gonna nk scum you know.
Let's take a look at what BT's got:
voted Dormio
didn't vote Rawr
voted Zak
The reason I say proddodge is because I haven't read the thread enough to say I know what I'm doing.
Flagrantly irresponsible at best. Never responded to the points I raised about his d3 post. In fact, the only direct post he's responded to since d1 ended was Shadoweh's Droopy Dog thing, which he would have gotten the reference to if he'd actually read the previous post she made.
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NNR:
But when I ignore him I'm scum because I wasn't ignoring him (and scum because I wasn't)
I want to scumread Oarfish, yes, but I don't want to be lynched because I am scumreading Oarfish
these posts are still bad.
You question literally every townread people have on me. Isn't that a little bit insane?
I'm questioning the reliability of alternate wagon to scum being obvtown, and I'm questioning a townread with no justification. Is that too much?
Note: I just now searched for "counterwagon" on google, and what did I find? Ace Attorney: Raikaria pointing to his counterwagon, when both (all three) wagons were scum!
Players in that game: Bard, Serela, and the Mod was BT.
Why is BT town?
I still ultimately lean scum on Oarfish though. Really liked NNR's case (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177198.html#msg1177198). It also occured to me that the parts I remember the best from Oarfish's ISO is him on the defensive, like in this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177277.html#msg1177277). I think his cases this game are underwhelming, in general and in contrast to the amount of effort put in. Serela and NNR are pretty much the only two slots I'm comfortable reading as town and it rubs off very badly on his Serela vote and his NNR interactions.
(Oarfish)Weak. You aren't saying WHAT you like about NNR's case. And my cases suck compared to the amount of effort? Are you trying to say that your tiny amount of effort is a good thing?
BTW, claiming a townread on NNR is funny considering you haven't mentioned him at all this whole game.
(NNR)I think this is a pretty weak argument against BT. He's basically right about you, your defense hasn't been bad but your reads and cases have been pretty shitty. Your main gripe with BT here he is townreading me (conflicting with your read) and that he's voting Zak despite having no earlier read on him.
The thing is, townreading you isn't bad. Townreading you for no reason given IS.
This type of activity isn't unique to Scum-BT, just seems more odd when he does it.
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Seriously, once "scum counterwagon" was raised, Bard BT and Serela should have jumped all over that, no matter what NNR's alignment is. Ace Attorney was only 3 games ago.
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Would Rawr really make such a weak counterwagon when he would be a lot less likely to live to endgame if I died (and was scum)?
Strategically it'd make more sense for Rawr just to self-hammer and not mention me at all.
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##vote Oarfish
That is L-1.
Oarfish, if you're town, I'd like you to shoot Serela.
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Sky OP:*shrug* You can hate all the voters but BT himself hasn't posted anything I would call town. That one post of his I quoted has one scumread in it and some questions that don't add up to reads. I am insulted that I keep being called out for lurking when I'm not. I'm posting at least 4 times as much as the person I'm voting!
That post you linked as a 'meta post' was all about the current game state. And about how lynching on the wagon is shameful. What's your problem?
Elieson reminds me Shadoweh still isn't town and I should probably be paying more attention to her. I never really thought I'd encounter trouble with BT getting lynched and there's never been talk about actual interest in seriously doing a lynch on her (of course, she basically entered the game d3, so that helped :T), so I didn't mind putting her off for another day, but it's probably time to stop putting up excuses and actually reread her
[/quote
I'm pretty sure I'm town actually. Being absent has never stopped people from lynching me before. There has been CONSTANT talk about people thinking I'm scummy, Serela. The reason I'm not getting lynched is no one wants to go there. Because they know it will fail spectacularily. :yukkuri:
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I didn't say no one says you're scummy, I said no one has actually -really- talked about lynching you, which I think is actually true >:V Kinda like how d2 everyone didn't really like rawr but until I starting kicking and screaming about it no one actually cared enough to think HMMM MAYBE THE UNIVERSAL SCUMREAD SHOULD BE LYNCHED
Although honestly I'd still really just rather lynch BT. not that I've reread you yet I'm pretty lazy but just from what I remember there's nothing particularly off about your posts, they might not be town A+++ but BT feels more guilty of anything I could try to accuse you of
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Skypal: not even going to respond to my posts?
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So the reason I asked *those players* for a list is because I felt that the night kills weren't related to current game state, but instead game meta; look at these deaths:
Many of the players currently in the game have never played with Vhaltz, but it seems we have somebody picking kills based on meta, because why SB. So we're looking for a long time player of the game -> Shadoweh or BT.
So, what you're saying is that someone has been choosing the kills based on past games INSTEAD of the current game. What kind of person would want to do that? Perhaps a person who isn't reading the current game, but who can rely on past experience?
maybe ... BT!
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I don't think the nightkills are weird at all. Okay, Vhaltzuki d1 was a little weird. But after that it's been people who were heavily townread in addition to being generally strong players.
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To be honest, my first pick was NNR. I've been scum with him in the past before and he heavily put forward meta as the basis for the night kills. Untitled Story IIRC.
I'm currently ruling it out because of the Rawr/NNR interactions not making sense. There was a post somewhere that if Oarfish flipped scum I'd be scum reading BT or something, I can't remember.
I may be overlooking BT unfairly because I don't get a scum vibe from his posts...because he doesn't post. From Shadoweh I get barely concealed hostility and I intuitively don't like it. The main thing Shadoweh has going for her imo is that she wasn't on the Zak wagon. Or maybe smart scum wouldn't have touched that lynch.
From you I get obfuscation and what feels like a deliberate attempt to be confusing. From Serela I get a feeling of something dirty. She wants to comment on everything and have the last word on everything.
Mainly I've gotten used to two week day phases over on Mafiascum and I haven't been able to scour this thread like I wished I could.
Time left on phase end?
cut-
Who was townreading SB?
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She wants to comment on everything and have the last word on everything.
what.
I'm scummy because I'm -here-? >:T
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>Time left on phase end?
I think the day ends in 9 hours almost exactly.
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This is awkward because BT doesn't exist.
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You post a lot of stuff and you glibly contradict without caring. You twice said this game that you were too lazy to check something you yourself said.
That's in stark contrast with the apparent effort you seem to put in to the game. If you wanted to be taken seriously, you could do it. You've proven yourself capable if you want to, so I guess my question is, why don't you want to?
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However, I agree it would be great if BT existed...I mean this day 2/day3?
Lynched lurker Rawr -> he was scum.
Lynched lurker Zak -> he was town.
Lurker BT -> ???
Key differences - Zak spent a good deal of time being town read by people. It took a special effort (voting Serela for wagons or something) and probably some scum pushing to get him lynched. Nobody had been town reading Rawr, apart from Eli.
I'm not entirely sure why I'm town reading BT except that nothing bad came up when I read his posts. We have time, I'll read them again when I get up and contrast with Shadowhe. It's what I wanted to do today but my day was cut six hours short by RL stuff.
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You twice said this game that you were too lazy to check something you yourself said.
You've proven yourself capable if you want to, so I guess my question is, why don't you want to?
With the D1 occurrence, I refused to check not out of laziness, but out of spite because it was completely ludicrous that the subject was even being treated as if it mattered, which it never did and never can despite you trying to insist otherwise.
The second time was because I already know you aren't -going- to take me seriously, as shown by several statements you made today and the comments you made about how I've gone about voting BT.
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And what about towards the rest of the players in the game?
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##unvote
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I'll sleep on it.
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Nah. Your game play can't really be "say whatever I want to spite Sky." This game is not all about me.
##vote Serela
NOW Ill sleep on it.
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I don't think anyone else has actually given reasons they're suspicious of me? I might have missed something though.
Although, at this point, opinions on the major wagons are probably most important. Deadline's in 8 hours. O4rfish and BT are both L-2. Elie and SkyPal are the ones not on the wagons, although they both sound like they're more likely to be voting O4rfish than BT.
Sometime soon I'll reread BT to write up something convincing like I have near deadline every other day this game!
cut by :V Dude that's not even close to what's going on here. And I hadn't said it like that to spite you because YOU WEREN'T INVOLVED IN THAT DISCUSSION AT THE TIME I DID THAT
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The trouble is that I try to take you seriously. I hold you to the same standard of accountability I hold everybody else to. Anybody else slacked off on their reads or contradict themselves? They'd be dead. But because you have a meta for...I don't know what to call it, you always, ALWAYS get a free pass.
So here I go again, treating you seriously. Don't make me regret it.
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Dude, the issue is you have your head in the clouds with your reads. You point out I had a town read on bt FUCKING DAY ONE and accuse me of being contradictory? What the fucking shit man. I can't take -you- seriously. >:T
okay I'm going to go back to devil of decline for awhile `-`
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Work til 4 and bike has a flat, wont be around till deadline
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I reread BT and for some reason I'm starting to buy more into the "townie who's way too busy IRL" thing ;____; No no no that's not what's supposed to happen, I don't really like the o4rfish wagon eitherrrrrr
Reread O4rfish (his d3 and d4, at least. I already know d1 was cruisy low presence and d2 was hard effort but unintelligible). He's still kinda that hard-to-read thing but overall I think he's more likely town than not. My sudden viewpoint swap on BT makes Shadoweh look so much worse as I go backwards through the thread though. Time to reread her instead! It's a reread bonanza! Except not really, because BT had like 5 posts to read and most of O4rfish's are short after d2.
Zak's vote on Serela isn't unusual and you guys are jumping at shadowehs. Cross wagons between Zak and Serela after yesterday are shameful. What do you two think of Elieson and of BT's lack of will to live?
But then I read Shadoweh's stuff before d4 and would Shadoweh really... off aguh aghgghaghhaghghhgh mafia plz I want to go back to just voting BT and not having any conflictions
Well... I still don't like the o4rfish wagon nor the thought of his vengevig so between the two I'd still rather lynch BT :T But now I don't feel good about it anymore. ;_; Maybe I should also reread ellieson sometime but I highly doubt flashwagoning is going to happen in the next 4 hours, so
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Bonus for SkyPal! You know, you'd think going through your own posts would be easy compared to going through others, but unlike all the other rereads I actually posted a million times. :T
On D3 I talked about BT here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177188.html#msg1177188) in post #426 and here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177832.html#msg1177832) in post #479. There are the missing links in my "inconsistent reads". They may not be very indepth analysis of BT, but bear with me here, the guy only has a few posts, there's not much one can do.
wait holy shit I completely forget refa exists man this guy
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oh god refa's posts are big, do I really want to reread all this (yes, I have to, fine)
okay refa reads super legit, esp. stuff like how he was reacting about his Dr.Rawr reread when the rawr lynch was already obvious and unavoidable
also I feel like I need to apologize for forgetting about Refa after realizing how much he's posted and how much effort he's clearly put into the game? It's probably just because he hasn't played here before, I mean, I can barely remember my own posts much less the ones of someone I don't know
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End result:Scum is in Shadoweh/O4rfish/BT/Ellieson because the other players are town. Now, from there... HAHA I'M WAFFLING ON ALL OF THEM ENTER DEPRESSION MODE AUUUUUUUUUUGH
-O4rfish is the least waffley of the reads in that I'm be okay with betting he's town but unfortunately I have to admit he's the least understandable person and that might be getting in the way?
-BT might just be town that doesn't have much time, but if he's scum and he's just abusing that to lurk... :S There's nothing particularly town-looking from his posts other than that they're well made, they're too sparse for the good content to actually make him reliably town and there's no interactions notably suggesting he's town either.
-Ellison... I'd... have to reread again, look I just reread like half the players ask me tomorrow instead
-Shadoweh I'm the most waffle I'm sorry ;_;
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Read up on thread. Thoughts have not changed. Bike fixed but still not at home. Not sure when deadline is but I agree with skypal. Lynch serela or oarfish. If one flips town shoot the other. Im 100% confident one is scum. 90% confident current BT wagon contains both scum
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I'm here and camping the thread until deadline.
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shadoweh I have no idea what other words left to say please come help me :C
(if you're scum you can go laugh in your qt about it)
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Unofficial vote count;
Day 4.x - Votals
BT (3) - Shadoweh, Serela, O4rfish
O4rfish (2) - Refa, BT
Shadoweh (1) - Elieson
Serela (2) - NNR, Sky
Deadline in I think about 40 minutes. It'd be great if Rawr used a proper countdown timer in the future.
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Deadline is in 2 hours and 40 minutes, right? Making a post right now, but I don't know if it'll be done in 40 minutes.
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You're both wrong, it's 1 hour and 40 minutes :V
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no wait nvm actually upon checking daystart I think refa is right
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Surprise, it was 20 minutes ago. This day phase was a no-lynch.
OK seriously I have no idea when the deadline is because I'm in Japan and I don't know what zone Rawr is in T__T Well if it's two hours that's enough time to go try and figure out Oarfish's posts again.
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Rawr = Huh What. Six hours sleep plus I got up early to be here. Come on coffee, go go go.
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you guys have 2 hours, 32 minutes
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Serela's least likely of all of us to be nightkilled since everyone knows if Serela survives to LYLO, the scum wins.
As in, because she's really good at playing scum or because he's really bad at lynching scum?
The other thing that looks interesting is that Elie / Refa have both posted a bunch so I wonder if they have some sort of meta handle on each other at this point? Just a quick calm summary of their play vs what you'd expect from a town / scum slot.
Elie's defense plays to his town meta (basically the difference is in tone and that he takes the time to respond to each and every point whereas his defense as scum is either nonexistent/a lot lazier), but his scumhunting/earlier levels of activity (mostly D1 and earlier D2) is more like his scum meta (picking apart a few scummier points over analyzing all of the relevant content and coming to a decision, and he generally posts way less as scum, although part of that could just be due to the lower level of activity in this game overall which is why I haven't really called him out on it)...Hence why I'm so conflicted.
I'd really like to see Oarfish/Serela's lists of 'who scum wants to kill' to 'least' before the phase is over. And yes, it will help me decide where to vote.
Can you explain what you got out of these lists (I know you already explained the purpose of the lists, but I don't remember you actually getting any reads off of them unless they got lost in the shuffle)? Like, I read their lists, but I couldn't get any reads off of them myself.
NNR: Let's say someone forced you to entertain the possibility that Oarfish is Town. Who are your picks for Rawr's 2 scumbuddies?
BT: same question, assuming you even read this post.
You didn't ask me this, but I figure this is something I should answer anyways since I am voting you. I'd say two of BT/Elieson/Serela, with different combinations that don't make sense as scumbuddies (off the top of my head, I can't see a BT/Serela scumteam).
My immediate gut thought is Serela and one of Elieson/Shadoweh. From rereading Shadoweh and Elieson, though, my money is going down on Shadoweh.
Can you explain your issues with Shadoweh (as well as other people who are scumreading her, I suppose)? I thought she was pretty obviously town, so all of these unexplained scumreads are well, frustrating because I'm not sure if I've missing something here or she's playing to her scum meta or what.
From Ellie's d2 I came to that conclusion :T I mean it's not that he can't be good since this is a very small frame of reference but the guy sat around doing nothing the whole day voting BT for hammering 5 minutes before deadline.
Generally Elie is considered average at worst, FWIW. Also like every SF player, he's worse as scum than as town.
also I feel like I need to apologize for forgetting about Refa after realizing how much he's posted and how much effort he's clearly put into the game? It's probably just because he hasn't played here before, I mean, I can barely remember my own posts much less the ones of someone I don't know
It's all good. Usually I'm considered the opposite of forgettable though, so it's kind of funny to me that someone thinks the opposite.
OK, getting onto the Serela/BT ISO's. My impression of BT (obviously) hasn't changed, but from my initial read of Serela's later posts I still feel somewhat confident in my earlier townread on the slot (besides a few aforementioned issues). Oarfish > BT > Serela currently.
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I don't remember anyone making a good case on Serela though. Why would I shoot Serela?
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Um...apparently I didn't actually paste in my issues with Serela because I'm dumb. The short of it is that whoever said she could be scumbuddies with Shadoweh (NNR, I think) had a good point (although if Serela was scum, I'd suspect Elieson over Shadoweh myself), their tone when he asked Shadoweh for help was weird considering you're not even sure on the slot yourself (and Shadoweh isn't exactly townreading you either), and uh...that's it. It's enough to make me reread the slot's overall content (which is saying something, because I really hate ISO's, petition to ban them still in effect), but not enough to make me comfortable with a lynch on him.
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But wouldn't it make a ton more sense for me to shoot who I'm voting for? What kind of person would expect me to shoot the person voting alongside me?
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But wouldn't it make a ton more sense for me to shoot who I'm voting for? What kind of person would expect me to shoot the person voting alongside me?
That wasn't me answering you, it was a followup from my previous post. If you're town, you can shoot whoever you want (preferably not NNR/Sky Paladin/Shadoweh though, since I'm townreading all of them and don't really have any issues with their current content).
-
Refa
Can you explain what you got out of these lists
I wanted to establish that night hits were being made by meta rather than current game state. SB's hit, in particular, was unexpected. I don't think anybody other than I were town reading SB, yet Serela pulled this up as the basis for SB being hit.
I felt that there would be scum amongst NNR/Oarfish/Serela, and if so, they would have knowledge of the scum teams plan and I might see evidence of scum intent when they made their list of who-would-die-and-why. Of the three, Serela and Oarfish gave the flakiest responses, with Serela completely missing Mitsuki/Vhaltz, and Oarfish being completely unable to answer in a coherent way.
Oarfish's game has been basically terrible. His sign-out comment/vanish, indecipherable spread sheets and seemingly random gibberish confuses the hell out of me. I can't pick between him and Serela, but I doubt they are both scum. I could see a Serela/Shadoweh team.
Eli has basically dropped off my radar and I should go review her again.
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As in, because she's really good at playing scum or because he's really bad at lynching scum?
Theoretically I do pretty well, I think! I also rarely get lynched unless I'm actually scum. (Lately my scum record's been pretty high too :D) And I next to never get nightkilled either, because of... reasons... >_>;;
...I do as well as you could expect someone to, before lylo, but somehow, once I'm in lylo (which is most of the games I'm in that reach lylo at all) things never go right for town... and in every unique situation somehow it usually ends up being my fault in an overly ridiculous way... >.>;;; Town's only won like, two lylos I've been in but I've probably been in 15+? Those are... pretty skewed numbers <.< And the first 10-ish are probably in a row.
their tone when he asked Shadoweh for help was weird considering you're not even sure on the slot yourself (and Shadoweh isn't exactly townreading you either)
Me and Shadoweh are buddies :D Or at least she treats me pleasantly and knows my meta pretty well? ;_; She was townreading me earlier, I think I recall her saying things that took as such into doubt but she's not like the others who have me pegged as one out of three possible culprits for the last two scum..
I don't think anybody other than I were town reading SB, yet Serela pulled this up as the basis for SB being hit.
Huh? I'm pretty sure there was a lot of people townreading SB, though.
re:cases on Serela, I feel that I've pretty thoroughly deconstructed all the ones that have been brought up against me, but SkyPal thinks I was lying about my votes on D1 (it's a long story if you don't remember) and I guess the others might be PoE? I don't really recall any reasons from NNR, for example. He's on a phone right now, though, so.
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Skypal, you haven't considered the possibility that my answer didn't fit your expected return because I'm not actually scum? I answered the question as best I could, and it's frustrating for me to see you describe my answer as "obfuscating" when your question was vague to begin with.
-
Anyway the cool thing about vig shots and vengeful kills are that you're the only one whose opinion matters, and you can kill whoever you think is the scum no matter what the other weirdos say :D In the case of a vengeful, they can't even lynch you for it! Hee
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But wouldn't it make a ton more sense for me to shoot who I'm voting for? What kind of person would expect me to shoot the person voting alongside me?
Hint: It's because you're on a wagon with scum.
Also your reads have been basically terrible this game and I wouldn't trust you with a vig if I could help it, but I can't and you need to die at some point before LYLO because you are scummy as hell.
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You know, in the assumption you aren't scum, which I fully expect you to be.
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From my perspective, you calling me scum does not make me think highly of your scumdar. Do you have something to back up your assertion that the players also on the wagon I'm on are scum?
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Look I have literally tunneled you the entire game as scum, if you haven't seen the reasons I have presented on you, you are never going to.
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BT's ISO (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=5565) basically reads "Let's kill Oarfish."
I could consider going through with a BT lynch because BT is likely to shoot Oarfish. And I think Oarfish is scum.
My main issue with this is that BT is essentially a lurker lynch.
I mean, look at these votes.
Oarfish
vote (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178360.html#msg1178360)
Oarfish doesn't say why they're voting in their vote post, but the one before it says:
My scumreads are BT for meta, Elie for a bland sort of scumminess, and NNR because I just can't see Town tunneling this hard with so little content.
I'd probably shoot BT just because vig->lurker.
So I want to know what meta Oarfish wants BT dead for since apparently it's nothing to do with this game - and partly why I flagged Oarfish as scummy for his responses to my question on meta-deaths on Shrine Maiden.
I also don't like that Oarfish's posts this day seem to be begging the question, like "What kind of person would expect me to shoot the person voting alongside me?" rather than actively driving discussion/scumhunting.
Basically, this is a lurker lynch, and not "I see BT as scum."
Shadoweh
Vote (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178344.html#msg1178344)
Shadoweh is the more consistent of the three. Her vote was cast basically from day 3, when she solo-voted BT during the Zak mislynch. This day phase she hasn't really restated it clearly or made any effort to actually push it though.
I can at least consider Shadoweh's vote as real.
Serela
Vote (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178350.html#msg1178350)
Ellie's post made me realize I don't want him in control of the town vengeful if he flips town. Sorry!
If BT flips scum, that's awesome, but if he flips town I can still trust the vig shot is in good hands.
^^Essentially a lurker lynch. Yet just before then, Serela stated "I'd be shooting between the people I've been talking about wanting lynched, of course. BT/Ellie/Shadoweh", but Serela has no qualms voting alongside Shadoweh.
Serela mentions in her posts intent to read BT but never brings up any specific reason for why she's voting BT. It basically looks like a questionable lurker lynch dressed up as POE.
***
So, on the BT wagon, I see one semi-plausible-but-not-updated-in-forever-vote (Shadoweh), one BT-won't-vig-me-vote (Serela) and one lurker lynch (Oarfish). I'm not particularly satisfied with any of these votes and that's why I think the wagon has scum in it.
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Hi. I would still like to lynch the only person who hasn't posted while everyone's been having their spam flipouts. You might not have noticed? It's still Beetee. He'll either die or get to shoot like he's special, it'd be great. :> If I stop voting him will it convince you all I'm scum leaving my partner's wagon so you all go there?
I wouldn't be against an Elie flash. The more I think about it the more his dismissiveness of me for being a mean ol witch bothers me. Refusing to give death reads isn't a scumtell and twisting it that way and tunneling me all day is etc.
Serela I keep going back and forth on you because you keep doing THINGS. You're right that I don't want to lynch you. As much as you keep thinging repeatedly.
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The specific reasons are that there's no reason to really think he's town from his play (which for most other people, there -is- by now, whether from play or interactions, etc), and he's a lurker, and those two combined make it very possible he's scum so
It's not like a lurker lynch is a bad lynch! Let's be honest here, lynching Shadoweh is sort of a lurker lynch too. And that's not just me, she's alongside me and o4rfish in all these proposed scumteams.
cut by HI SHADOWEH WE'VE GOT 45 MINUTES yes I'm a thing I know ;_;
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Day 4.Who Cares - Votals
BT (3) - Shadoweh, Serela, O4rfish
O4rfish (2) - Refa, BT
Serela (2) - NekoRex, Sky_Paladin
Shadoweh (1) - Elieson
Not Voting: None!
You have 40 minutes remaining in the day. With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
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It's really hard to update a vote on someone who isn't posting. That's kind of the point of lurking. His one post today has one read hint his counterwagon and questions with no reply to the answers. The next update will hopefully be a flip.
I don't think this is rocket science, vote the people who were voting town and not voting scum.
Dormio (:tenshi:) - O4rfish, Zakeri, ActionDan, Sky_Paladin, SB, Refa, Mitsuki, BT (L-0!)
Dr Rawr (7) - SB, Serela, NekoRex, Bardiche, Zakeri, O4fish, Refa (L-0!)
Sage Zakeri (6): BT, O4rfish, Serela, NekoNekoRex, Elieson, SB (L-0!)
People that should have wagons: BT, Elieson
People that should be being ignored before they flip: EVERYONE ELSE.
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I'm actually looking at the Eli wagon now.
I'm having an issue with her Zak day 3 vote. Details inc.
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BT has a meta of lurking as scum, as seen in Awareness of Color. He is putting no effort into the game, and isn't responding to any questions anybody asks him.
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I don't know most people's meta because I have no memory for it. O4rfish thank you <3
Can we lynch him now? Please?
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On day 3, Eli votes for Zak here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178057.html#msg1178057) because she couldn't get a lynch of Refa, and states Zak is 'her other scumread'.
However, scrolling through her ISO shows that 'her other scum read' was actually yours truly, Sky.
Well, that's about it.
There's some other stuff like the day 1 combined push on me with Rawr/day 2 listing Serela/Rawr amongst her would not lynch read. Ugh.
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I'm probably not going to go with an Eli lynch because panic consolidation wagons in the last 30 minutes are terrible.
For the same reason, Shadoweh is off the table for me. I'd prefer to lynch between Serela/Oarfish. If there's no other choice I'll hammer BT.
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O4rfish: Couldn't handle SkyPaladin's questionairre, and that just doesn't add up. I wouldn't expect these two to be of the same alignment
Does anyone besides Skypal think this is true?
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But didn't you provide a comprehensive answer? :S
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wait did skypal ask you multiple different questions, I was just thinking of the nightkill priority thing
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I just wanted a straight list of who you thought, from a meta perspective, the most likely night kill order was.
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I know we're cutting it real fine, but if you go back and check Oarfish's answer, it's impossible to unambiguously deduce who Oarfish's top 5 meta hits would be, unless you bust out a pen and paper. And that's what I consider 'obfuscating'.
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here. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178566.html#msg1178566)
13 minutes blargh.
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If you call that obfuscating there's something wrong with you. They are very clearly listed in high/lows, and with details, and a 3rd grader could pick out the top 5.
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Does anyone besides Skypal think this is true?
I don't see you as scumbuddies, anyways.
Ugh, got caught up in studying for some quizzes and now I don't even have enough time to finish up that post analyzing Serela/BT's ISOs...or time to analyze much of anything, honestly. Sorry if you end up flipping town, BT, because I don't really have much of a read on you (well, I mean I'd sheep Shadoweh's read on you, but I haven't even bothered to ISOed you) and getting voted purely for consolidation is the literal worst, but a lynch is better than a no lynch and I feel even less comfortable with lynching Serela without an ISO (especially considering they actually have a lot of content to analyze); please vig Oarfish if possible. Will be around later if consolidation on another wagon is necessary, but that's probably going to be the extent of my contributions for the rest of the day.
##Unvote
##Vote: BT
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If anything, o4rfish had the best, most comprehensive answer out of anyone!
also hi refa c:
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Can you list them for me then, Serela?
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Sorry I was distracted by a white ball of rage. There's 10 minutes left. Vote beetee please.
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Shadoweh, your vote would hammer...?
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Shadoweh is voting BT, but I don't want to have BT die.
##Unvote
##Vote: Oarfish
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Skypal was upset that I didn't list the players in a single-file line.
Skypal, I thought we were analyzing the kills that took place along with possible future kills. If you wanted me to ONLY consider scumhunting ability, or scumhunting ability combined with LYLO performance or something, you should have been more clear.
Do you really think my answer is hiding something, or are you just upset that it didn't fit your expected template?
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Bard, re-oh wait it has two different angles not just the first "moderate" thing
I'm good at reading comprehension
I still can't fathom how this is a scummy answer though
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If Sky votes Oarfish then it's 4 on him. More people don't like Oarfish, let him be the lynch.
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##vote Oarfish
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BT (4) - Shadoweh, Serela, O4rfish, Refa
O4rfish (3) - BT, NekoRex, Sky_Paladin
Shadoweh (1) - Elieson
7 minutes left
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Okay. Please flip scum.
##Unvote
##Vote: Oarfish
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Oh.
Well tbh a vote for BT is also a vote for Oarfish so. I'll hammer if nothing else happens.
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Goddamit this shit always happens. 5 minutes.
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Oh.
Well tbh a vote for BT is also a vote for Oarfish so. I'll hammer if nothing else happens.
That's only the case if BT is the laziest town ever.
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Serela is still here
Serela vote Oarfish
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##unvote
##vote BT
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##Unvote: Vote: BT
Ugh
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Make up your minds.
##Unvote
##Vote: BT
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lol
-
I'm trying to consolidate onto o4rfish and I keep getting cut by other votes until "oh no wait, this is actually a lynch, that's a good thing"
:D
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HAMMER SHUT UP
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BT (5) - Shadoweh, Serela, O4rfish, Sky_Paladin, NekoRex (L-0!)
O4rfish (2) - BT, Refa
Shadoweh (1) - Elieson
Not Voting: None!
BT has been lynched. He was a Mafia Goon.
It is now Night 4. You have 24 hours to send in your night actions.
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RIP Shadoweh. She died as she lived, a Vanilla Townie.
It is now Day 5. With 6 alive, it takes 4 to hammer. If a townie is lynched today, they will be able to ##Kill a player of their choice. You have 72 hours and 6 minutes to decide on a lynch.
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So that just cleared my reads out.
Uh.
I don't know who to vote now. Elieson?
Oarfish and Serela are off the table for good, so.
I don't know.
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##Vote: Oarfish
Lend me your power! Friendship beam!
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Airfish plz no.
Ellieson townread both Rawr and BT. Since O4rfish and Shadoweh both look even more likely now (oh and shads just died...) that's pretty much... the only sensible option left for me. I would never bet on counterwagon NNR or my townreads or the people trying to lynch BT all day over that.
##Vote O4rfish
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I can't
fuggin
ahfkhd;flja;sdf
##unvote ##Vote Ellieson
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I guess I owe Serela a big apology since she's now basically confirmed town. I'm also struggling to see a viable scenario with scum!Oarfish either.
That leaves Refa/Eli/NNR; of those three. In addition to their previous content, NNR/Refa both had a fairly big involvement in the last minute lynch of BT so I'm inclined to believe neither of them could be scum.
Eli...is probably scum by POE even without considering her vote history.
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I know who the final scumbuddy of BT and Rawr is. It is obvious if you look at Day 1.
and since my d1 is pretty scummy, you should just lynch me.
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I get that Eli makes the most sense as scum by PoE, but...what I don't get is why he'd leave his Day 2 vote on BT for pretty much the entire day for such a dumb reason (if he was scum, it would have been simple for him to make a legitimate case on his scumbuddy, regardless of whether or not the dude was a lurker)? It just doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum (ugh, I wish SB was alive because he knows Elie's meta way better than I do), but at the same time everyone else also has decent interactions off of flipped scum? Going to read everyones' interactions with scum to see if there was any bussing involved, because that's the only way I can make sense of things.
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Based on interactions, I'm convinced the final scum is neither NNR nor Skypal.
It's me, you need to vote me. I'm the scum.
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...Seriously? Well, that saves me a lot of arduous rereading; petition to make Refa the Town MVP. Kind of curious though, why did you and BT bus each other yesterday? Were you planning on letting him carry (and then he ended up getting lynched instead of you)?
##Vote: O4rfish
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Because I clearly hard defended my entire scum team all game long, right? My reads have been the absolute worst, ughh. Figures that scum have been both metacased and not active really at all.
If you're all keen on lynching me, I saw it coming as soon as I saw BT flip scum, but for what its worth, I'm probably aiming my shot at Shadoweh or maybe Neko, as I highly doubt refascum would be on the same wagon as his buddy. That's like, all the clear you can be at this point and pretty much propelled him up to #1 town read.
-
Oh uhhh
##Vote 04RF1$H
I guess?
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shhh o4rfish go claim scum somewhere else can't you see we're trying to mislynch ellieson based off nothing he actually did
cut by yeah this is really happening isn't it :V
Look if you're town just shoot Ellieson and I'm not even mad. If you -are- scum you're crazy for claiming now tho 'cause after bussing BT you actually had a chance? 3P lylo would admittedly be pretty brutal and you'd likely be lynched but you really had a chance, and the Ellie mislynch today was basically free.
##Unvote ##Vote O4rfish
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Did we just tunnel into each other as town again? Is this our destiny, Elieson? Is fate unchangeable?
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hammer shut up
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Oarfish was Vanilla Town. Pick a shot.
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"This is for Bard."
##Vig: Serela
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URAAAGHGAHGAHGGHGHHHHH I LITERALLY FORCED TOWN TO LYNCH THE SCUM AGAINST THEIR WILL AND THIS IS WHAT I GET ;_;
-
Lmao
Serela was Vanilla Town. 24 hours
-
That's impossible.
I have a proof for this, but it's too long to write in this space.
-
aaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
NekoRex was a Vanilla Townie but now he's not because he's dead.
ELIESON
REFA
SKY_PALADIN
YOUR FATES ARE ABOUT TO BE DECIDED
It is now Day 6. With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch. You have 72 hours to not lose the game. Good Fucking Luck.
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Oh for fucks sake.
-
The following people owe me apologies:
.
1) O4rfish, for claiming scum as town.
2) O4rfish again, for shooting Serela as town (Serela was the TOWNIEST of all of the remaining players).
3) Scum for NKing NNR over me (seriously why I hate being town in LYLO).
4) SB for dragging me into this game to begin with.
Going to read through both of your ISO's when I'm done with my classes for the day.
-
Actually, why did scum NK at all? It would be way easier to win in 4P LYLO (since lynches are forced and all that).
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Well at least NNR died. I'd like to hand a special thanks to Oarfish for clearing out the only two people I deep down believed had to be town, to make this LYLO even easier for me to work out. Gugh.
I'm not voting for either of you just yet. I think on the balance Eli is probably more scum than Refa, but seeing as we magically got another 72 hours from somewhere, I'll go read up carefully.
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I realise that the combined town/scum forces have killed all the native Shrine Maiden folk. I was expecting town!Refa to die but he's still here so I'm :V why are you here.
-
Eli
If you're all keen on lynching me, I saw it coming as soon as I saw BT flip scum, but for what its worth, I'm probably aiming my shot at Shadoweh or maybe Neko, as I highly doubt refascum would be on the same wagon as his buddy. That's like, all the clear you can be at this point and pretty much propelled him up to #1 town read.
Please talk to me some more about this point.
-
I can safely say that my reads have been the absolute worst of the worst. Given my performance, I'm not surprised that I'm alive after last night, but I suspected that SkyPaladin, the one who's producing the most genuine effort would've been the one to get shot.
SkyPaladin, I have a feeling that we both know Refa's going to be the deciding factor in this. Though, I will say this:
How does O4rfish off'ing Selery (seriously, why did you even do that I'd really like to see a postgame slamdown on bs like that) make lylo EASIER?
ACTUALLY
I'm 99.9% sure Refa is town. Rules state that scum MUST kill
-
That confused me the fuck out of me too. No offense, NNR, but I don't see why you'd get NKed over me (no ego). Here's what I'm thinking:
You're scum:
-I've been townreading you for pretty much the whole game (what was NNR's read on you, I should look it up).
-I've been scumreading Elieson for pretty much the entire game, at least until the last few days, and am more likely to vote him over you.
Elieson is scum:
-I'd be less likely to vote him over NNR (since basically everyone considered him obvious scum yesterday except for me).
-NNR was more willing to vote him maybe? I haven't done any ISO's yet, so I'd have to see which of the two of you would make a better NK for Scum!Elie.
-
Eli
Please talk to me some more about this point.
Given those who were alive:
I'm sure you haven't forgotten my near life-tunnel on Selery
my Refa read had changed, which I stated already like what, two hours ago?
O4rfish's behavior was so erratic that I really couldn't make heads or tails of it. With my inability to read him, I expected that the rest of town would ultimately get scum!O4rfish lynched without my help. Call it what you like, the game's become pretty meta-heavy and I'm not going to act like it's not influencing suspicions. You shouldn't either.
Honestly I didn't even look at the nightflip, and just posted what I was thinking which was to put a shot in Shadoweh if I was lynched, which looking back after the hammer, means I really need to pay attention more
NekoRex's play had been diminishing as the game went on (where mine apparently dropped drastically). I would've thought about it and probably popped a cap here, since I felt like I was tunneling you wrongly at this point in the game, and you've been working to produce content which no one can really deny.
-
Actually, why did scum NK at all? It would be way easier to win in 4P LYLO (since lynches are forced and all that).
ACTUALLY
I'm 99.9% sure Refa is town. Rules state that scum MUST kill
Like, I can't see scum!Refa posting such a question when it's pretty obvious to him that he as scum would have to take the kill. A Rules!Gambit just wouldn't make sense at this stage in the game...how would you even overlook something like that.
-
How does O4rfish off'ing Selery (seriously, why did you even do that I'd really like to see a postgame slamdown on bs like that) make lylo EASIER?
ACTUALLY
I'm 99.9% sure Refa is town. Rules state that scum MUST kill
I don't think you've got the right of things here, but would like to see his answer before giving my own thoughts here (don't want to accidentally influence it).
Wait, seriously? *Goes through the rules one more time* Oh...I suppose they must. My bad.
Also can you answer Skype's question? I don't get why I'd be confirmed town for being on the same wagon as scum. If anything, wouldn't that make me more likely to be scum?
-
Like, I can't see scum!Refa posting such a question when it's pretty obvious to him that he as scum would have to take the kill. A Rules!Gambit just wouldn't make sense at this stage in the game...how would you even overlook something like that.
IT'S A SIMPLE MISTAKE ANYONE COULD HAVE MADE IT. The worst part is, I know I read that rule before, so I don't even know how I forgot it. ;_;
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I don't see both remaining mafia tying themselves to the same attempted mislynch, given the fact that the other lynch that actually occured was pretty likely to happen given the heat/performance at yesterphase end.
-
Fair enough. Going to stop spamming up the thread now, at least until after I've done those ISO's.
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IT'S A SIMPLE MISTAKE ANYONE COULD HAVE MADE IT. The worst part is, I know I read that rule before, so I don't even know how I forgot it. ;_;
The thing is with phase ending in like 24 minutes instead of 24 hours, I can't see that kind of question coming up instantly and in public. Mafia knew what they were doing with what I guess was a reflexive kill on Neko after the stupid o4rish Selery thing I can see happening...but not the follow up question of "Why didn't scum NoKill".
It's like
You are mafia. You know you have to kill. You perform the kill. Suddenly, you feel like asking "why didn't I..err, scum, nokill?" I'd be more confident that scum would rather not bring it up at all, rather than throw it out there
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TBH I am not going to pay any weight into the 'can mafia no-kill' comment because wifom. There's 25 pages of stuff I'll go through that will bear more weight than this and I'll go through it all tomorrow when I get up.
I'll just throw out though, that if I was scum, I would have killed Eli night 5, since NNR/Refa were town reading me, and NNR was fairly hard town reading me.
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for what it's worth, i ended up googling wifom because people have said it a bunch and i don't think I really understood it's true meaning
I don't see why you would kill me when I've been the clear vote alternative for days now. In fact, you stated in #721 that i was most likely scum, and Refa stated the same thing two posts later, in #723.
Neko in Day3's #504 was townreading you, second only to Selery. Neko in Day 5's #717 was scumreading me (therefore, townreading you...at least more than me? He said he didn't know who to vote, except for me with a question mark)
So when you say you'd have killed me because NNR and Refa were simultaneously townreading you...I can't quite follow that logic since they were scumreading me while they were townreading you. That logic is backwards
Like...dems the facts man and it took me 5 minutes to crossreference reads and figure that out. What's you're defense to that
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Because if I was scum in LYLO, my objective isn't to prove one of you are scum, it's merely to establish that I'm town/have Refa or NNR cross vote/gg. And that's easy enough if it was NNR/Refa LYLO.
I'll explore this train of thought further when I get up. I'm interested to explore 'Who scum!Refa would have hit' and 'Who scum!Eli would have hit'. However I'll mainly be looking at the activity from day 1-day 5 and come to a conclusion about which of you two is most likely to be scum. You're welcome to do your own review, of course.
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However I will note that you've twice now used comments from day 6 instead of reviewing the game history - the first, as a means for speculating town-slip-Refa, the second just now. I don't like it.
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Now that I think about it, I also have to consider night 4, since that was a solo-scum party as well, and Shadoweh's last instructions were quite specific. Well, bed now. See you tomorrow. Please don't vote until everybody has had a chance to make their opinion known.
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But I went back into the game history with my citation of Neko's D3 read on you [and me]. I'm doing more, goodness, but don't tell me that I can't use final day performance in building reads. I'm obviously not confident enough to throw down a vote yet, so why is it a big deal right now. Though to be frank, "I will note it" is something that in other sites that I've played mafia on, has been said exclusively by scum.
That response to my question...eh, I feel like it's not what I really wanted to hear, but it's good enough i guess
I'm less interested in hearing your speculation on who-to-kill from a Refa v Me perspective, and more from a "Team" perspective. Ergo:
Why did Rawr+BT+Refa/Elie kill Vhaltzuki on N1?
Why did BT+Refa/Elie kill Bardiche N2 and SB N3?
AND THEN, why did Refa/Elie kill Shadow N4, and Neko N5?
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Also I had no idea you were in Japan until I checked your profile. Refa and I share timezones so hopefully we can come up with some decent discussion while you're asleep
G'night
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I'm less interested in hearing your speculation on who-to-kill from a Refa v Me perspective, and more from a "Team" perspective. Ergo:
Why did Rawr+BT+Refa/Elie kill Vhaltzuki on N1?
Why did BT+Refa/Elie kill Bardiche N2 and SB N3?
AND THEN, why did Refa/Elie kill Shadow N4, and Neko N5?
Actually Refa I can throw this question to you, but replacing your name with SkyPaladin's.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the question isn't why did they kill X on each night, but why did they leave others alive (for the later nights anyway). That might apply more to me though, I dunno.
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C-C-C-COMBO
I feel like the SB death is one more worth observing (and the Bardiche/Shadoweh deaths) than the others. Neko's death discussion will be WIFOM for days, and Vhaltzuki i feel was pretty universally townread enough at the time to be a threat, though i should probably doublecheck that part.
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SB: He was pretty universally townread by the game. Refa didn't have that much to say about him in the grand scope, but probably because you don't normally talk about your townreads. Skypal had even less to say about him, but both of you were townreading him fairly decently.
during D3 SB townread Refa and SkyPaladin, and really didn't have any haters
Though, interesting SkyPaladin post here,
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176627.html#msg1176627, wrt why vhaltzuki was killed N1.
I got a meeting bbl
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Because if I was scum in LYLO, my objective isn't to prove one of you are scum, it's merely to establish that I'm town/have Refa or NNR cross vote/gg. And that's easy enough if it was NNR/Refa LYLO.
Considering me/NNR were townreading each other as well, that would be a lot harder (e.g. there's no guarantee we would flip our reads on each other over flipping our reads on you). I don't really consider kill analysis for at least the first three days to be worthy of much consideration, because the kills would have been motivated in part by another flipped scum member (possibly the N4 kill as well, depending on whether BT was actively lurking or not). FWIW, I would have killed you as scum because Elieson expressed an interest in lynching NNR yesterday.
Actually Refa I can throw this question to you, but replacing your name with SkyPaladin's.
You can throw it at me, but will you? ...OK, fine.
I don't really get the first 3 NK's. Maybe just because of general towniness? Mitsuki suspected neither of the flipped scum (or anyone else, for that matter), what even were Bard's scumreads, and SB was the only one of which who voted flipped scum (AKA BT). So at least that last death was explained (although why SB over Shadoweh, who was basically tunneling into him at that point...that's the kill scum!me would make).
Elie, you should answer your own question.
Though, interesting SkyPaladin post here,
https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176627.html#msg1176627, wrt why vhaltzuki was killed N1.
Please explain.
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Actually BT probably would have moved his vote to Serela if he was on at the time, so he probably wasn't. Ignore that portion then.
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Mits was pretty heavy town though, no one really suspected her, much like SB IMO (SBIIBO?)
I really don't have any idea why bard would be the "optimal" n2 kill when he was making a few enemies here and there? Same with Shadoweh...like, Shadoweh was pretty scummy looking thanks everyone else for putting him in your "I'll totally lynch this guy if we can't lynch Elie or O4rfish" lynch list. Like, Shadoweh was probably the worst kill choice possible?
Nekorex...idfk
wrt the Vhaltzuki kill
Maybe scumteam just feared Vhaltz.
This part throws me off because one I didn't know vhaltz had such a reputation for being fearkilled and two since vhaltz didn't actually do anything all I can do is assume that Mits was killed because of what Mits did in game, rather than what Vhaltz could've done. To me, it's a strange thing to consider, since I don't really get fearkilling and how can you even meta someone who
Like, Vhaltz subbed about 30 minutes after Phase ended, and flipped 23 hours later. Unless the scumteam just threw in a kill on Mitsuki [Vhaltz] and walked away, the timing just doesn't make sense. Of confirmed scum, BT posted 6 hours later and Rawr like, eventually. You posted almost by the next day, and SkyPal was right there with the flip like an hour after phase end. If Vhaltz was fearkilled because of mitsuki's d1 performance, it would have had to be a pretty confident fearkill and I don't see that being something that you would do @Refa since no offense I don't think you're that comfortable with his meta enough to fearkill someone who just jumped into the game rather than someone else you might've been concerned about throughout D1.
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ergo scum had 23/24 hours to contemplate if [Vhaltz] was worth killing on N1 as opposed to i dunno, some other general townread from D1 like Selera or Neko who both looked pretty town and were at least anticipated to provide consistant play into D2 (where hell we don't even know how active Vhaltz would've been).
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Refa didn't really have a standout D1 game but his play was pretty town if at least not unmemorable. I guess I could say it even moreso about SB (more unmemorable) but that's because SB posts like once
SkyPaladin was not shortspoken on D1. hmmm
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I really don't have any idea why bard would be the "optimal" n2 kill when he was making a few enemies here and there? Same with Shadoweh...like, Shadoweh was pretty scummy looking thanks everyone else for putting him in your "I'll totally lynch this guy if we can't lynch Elie or O4rfish" lynch list. Like, Shadoweh was probably the worst kill choice possible?
Nekorex...idfk
I don't remember anyone scumreading Bard by the time N2 rolled around, so I can get why scum would kill him. Shadoweh tunneled on scum for a few days, so that's understandable as well...but the NNR kill? Makes no fucking sense; I'm actually really curious to hear why scum went for him over me come postgame.
wrt the Vhaltzuki kill
This part throws me off because one I didn't know vhaltz had such a reputation for being fearkilled and two since vhaltz didn't actually do anything all I can do is assume that Mits was killed because of what Mits did in game, rather than what Vhaltz could've done. To me, it's a strange thing to consider, since I don't really get fearkilling and how can you even meta someone who
Like, Vhaltz subbed about 30 minutes after Phase ended, and flipped 23 hours later. Unless the scumteam just threw in a kill on Mitsuki [Vhaltz] and walked away, the timing just doesn't make sense. Of confirmed scum, BT posted 6 hours later and Rawr like, eventually. You posted almost by the next day, and SkyPal was right there with the flip like an hour after phase end. If Vhaltz was fearkilled because of mitsuki's d1 performance, it would have had to be a pretty confident fearkill and I don't see that being something that you would do @Refa since no offense I don't think you're that comfortable with his meta enough to fearkill someone who just jumped into the game rather than someone else you might've been concerned about throughout D1.
No offense to Mitsuki, but I can't see what she did that warranted an N1 kill. OK, noone was scumreading her by the end of the day, but people had scumread her earlier and others like SB and Bard were stronger townreads (well, at least FMPOV; maybe scum thought differently). I wouldn't personally fearkill Vhaltz (I can't remember ever playing with Town!Vhaltz in an NOC game), but that's not really a good reason to clear me*? BT and Dr. Rawr have played a lot of games with Vhaltz (...right? I kind of assume that everyone from MotK has played together for a somewhat significant amount of time), so the fearkill could have come from them over me (otherwise you'd be cleared by the same reasoning, which would make voting for scum hella easy).
*For the record, I'm questioning your townreads on me not because I want you to scumread me but rather because I'm kind of worried that you're buddying with me (which would probably be the optimal play for you to make in LYLO as scum?) and it's making it harder for me to read you without bias ("Hey, Elieson is right about my alignment, he must be town! Wait...scum would know my alignment too, right? Well fuck.")..hence the questions, which is also why I haven't really followed up on your previous answers because they've been fine.
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Well like, I'm town reading you and you're here so...idk...you've done fewer scum things than slypal over there to me. But also my reads have been far from stellar so there s that I guess
Man I'm not tired of mobile posting
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Ok. Sitting down and reading the game now.
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Things:
Scum often vote for each other in RVS. Other than SB, Refa is the only other player offhand I can think of who is famous for 'super bussing'.
Refa (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174774.html#msg1174774) votes Bard, not a bus.
Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174837.html#msg1174837) votes Refa, not a bus.
BT (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174855.html#msg1174855) votes Eli - could be a bus.
Sky (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174800.html#msg1174800) votes SB - not a bus.
Rawr (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175004.html#msg1175004) votes Sky - could be a bus*
*I know it's not a bus but for the sake of completeness I've included it.
Moving on.
BT ISO
Here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175236.html#msg1175236) BT spends some time talking about the mid day 1 wagons, and votes Mitsuki.
Highlights:
Attacks Mitsuki/Sky, defends Bard/Serela/Dormio.
Here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175606.html#msg1175606) BT asks if a Sky wagon is still possible, and votes Oarfish apparently as a consolidation on not!Dormio. Elieson then shifts her vote to Oarfish, also, making the Oarfish wagon suddenly the most viable.
SB then asked BT why he was not okay with a Dormio lynch. He responded with a quote of Dormio voting for me as a town quote. He ultimately hammers Dormio at the five minute mark, which Eli will poke him for during day 2.
Eli, for her part, unvoted slightly prior to the hammer and couldn't decide between Dormio/Oarfish, but up until that point, had been voting Oarfish.
Day 2, BT again flags Oarfish in here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176036.html#msg1176036) like most of the players. Also mentions Sky/Serela and wants me to address some comments I made about Oarfish's scum team picks.
BT (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177453.html#msg1177453)
I keep reversing my opinion on Sky because I think him prodding Oarfish/Elie is townie, but then I remember that he basically namedrops me as scum whenever it's appropriate but never does anything about it, so, like, is Sky just being hyper? I can't tell and I don't have the time to.
BT continuing to discredit me :/
BT's last post of the game commented that Refa/Eli appear to have some kind of meta handle on each other, and since this game appears to have been highly about meta, it's a pity he didn't say more.
Overall -
BT didn't mention his flipped scum buddy (Rawr) at all. He never mentioned Refa or Eli on their own; Eli twice (once with Oarfish, once with Refa).
I think BT was mainly focusing on town players so while I would consider it a clear for me, it's not much use on it's own unambiguously identifying which of Refa or Eli was buddies with him. Considering that BT voted Eli in RVS makes me say this ISO slightly favours scum!Eli over anybody else.
Moving on.
Rawr ISO
Rawr's first post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175004.html#msg1175004) of the game was to defend Serela/Bard and vote/attack Sky.
Rawr supports his vote in here. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175412.html#msg1175412)
Vanished until day 2.
Interesting post from BT on day 2.
Here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176651.html#msg1176651) he sheeps Bard on his NNR vote, "my gut is telling me NNR is town", and this quote.
my gut is probably telling me BT is scum but thats just because he also i think has a scum lurk meta and i have nothing else to slam into BT about him possibly being scum. i wouldbe voting BT right now but looking at the wagon we have zakeri who has made one post about his vote and that was him agreeing with oarfish theory on who the scum team is which i think kinda fell apart when he voted NNR. and elieson seems pretty upset BT tried to end the phase early and something about voting oarfish.
Here he is agreeing with the wagon on BT but criticises Zak and Eli's votes on it.
After that, he died. Oh well.
Main things are that we now know for sure that it was town!NNR/scum!Rawr on day 2 and we can drill down on the votes here.
Overall:
He has in common with BT a desire to see Sky flipped.
He also has in common with BT a defend on Serela/Bard although he doesn't attack Mitsuki.
He didn't RVS vote and kind of mid-day 1 made a case/vote on me. When given an opportunity to go elsewhere (Dormio/Oarfish wagons emergent) he stayed voting Sky.
Again, I think this ISO is helpful to give Sky!town but it's not particularly useful for picking which of Refa/Eli are scum.
It seems like Rawr managed to avoid mentioning Refa entirely, and only mentioned Eli in regards to criticising her vote on BT.
Now moving on to the living players.
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I already went through Eli quite a bit; the post she linked previously where I outline a possible scum team of BT/Rawr/Eli by chance looks quite compelling and I'm inclined to sheep myself on it.
Eli's day 1 is mostly tunneling Sky, and since neither Sky or Eli have flipped yet, that's not useful.
Late day 1 she does post this (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175498.html#msg1175498) though:
(slab of text condoning votes on Sky/Oarfish/Dormio followed with:)
Who's BT again? If all else fails I'd %%Vote this chump for his lame attempt at contribution which amounted to sheeping and nothing else
Rawr's #96 seems really disconnected from the game, reads as active lurking
Which is either amazingly perceptive or suspiciously accurate, depending on your cynicism.
Here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175548.html#msg1175548) Eli puts in a quite credible effort to restart the Sky wagon. At this point I would say Eli is the driving force on the train day 1, and Rawr just sheeped it. I think this is probably a strong town post, as I don't expect to see scum making this much effort when day 1 we had Dormio/Oarfish as completely viable easy-mode counterwagons. It's somewhat undone in her next post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175616.html#msg1175616) when she then sheeps Mitsuki and votes Oarfish for being 'Mitsuasive'. Then this:
If you can explain why mafia would throw in the towel D1 then I'm all ears
re: Oarfish apparent game-sign out. Then she unvotes.
Eli also said that she wasn't particularly town reading Dormio, but didn't really give her thoughts either way about Oarfish. I think her unvote in this situation is plausible.
Day 2
I like Eli's catch up (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176051.html#msg1176051) post. She town reads Oarfish/scum reads BT. Clarifies she would have voted Dormio, which is nice since it's easy for somebody to say 'If I was scum, I would have voted (the guy that got hammered)'.
Then there's a vote on BT, followed by a post against Oarfish for picking a Sky/Eli/??? scum team.
Eli then revotes Sky and has this list of reads:
:Would Lynch:
SkyPaladin
O4rfish
BT
:Wouldn't Lynch:
Selery
Dr Rawr
That's one scum in each list. Interestingly Oarfish made it to the lynch list from being town read, I presume because he keeps scum reading Eli. This is also the day that Rawr flipped scum without Eli on that wagon, so that's pretty awkward.
Day 3.
List of reads and explanations. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177234.html#msg1177234)
Nothing here strikes me as outstandingly poor.
Scum reading Zak for his day 1/day 2 activity.
Null on BT, light town on SB.
Interesting quote on voting Sky I didn't have any more confident reads at the time except SkyPaladin, but I wasn't 100% sold on it
given the basis of her vote/push day 1 was because I wasn't 100% sure on Serela.
The main take-away from this is a pretty solid vote on Refa, so I'll quote this for the sake of time:
"
Next up, Refa.
=For starters, some responses.
---I unvoted and didn't vote Dormio 9 minutes before phase end because like i've said four times, I didn't want to rush phase end early when people were around discussing things.
---When I have no idea how to read X player, and someone is evidently putting up a decent yet questionable case on X player, I might agree with it (and sheep it) but that doesn't mean I agree with it 100%. Mits had a decent case on O4rfish at the time but I didn't have any more confident reads at the time except SkyPaladin, but I wasn't 100% sold on it and I didn't think that she was either, hence my inquisition
---Why would I ever have a reason not to vote (unless it's like, an unnecessary phase end hammer or something)?
---Yes, I did drop my case on my #1 scumread at the time, because I couldn't get him lynched. People didn't agree with me and were voting elsewhere, making my vote on SkyPaladin neigh useless. I wasn't benefiting anyone by holding a vote where it wouldn't yield any fruit. I already argued my casing, and if the others don't agree with it, then that's their preference. We can't always lynch our #1 scumreads.
And onto thoughts
-I don't feel like Refa's reads are solid. Like, they have continuity, but they feel more or less locked in place
-Questionable position with Dr Rawr, especially this line:
Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum vi scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum v scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
which was a direct response to Dr Rwar. It just doesn't read right...I can't put my finger on it exactly
-His ISO of Dr Rawr produced such nonconclusive thoughts that it almost reads like Refa's not sure if he should push who might be his buddy
-Presented a bad position on the O4rfish, granted you only retracted your vote because you thought it'd be silly for him to give up when you admit to never buying the "scumclaim" to begin with
Analysis: Mild null-leaning-town read that's become an unexpected scumread
"
I basically like this post a lot. The positioning on Serela/Oarfish seems to basically parallel what many known town flips, and myself, were thinking.
The next post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177334.html#msg1177334) provides a very clear and detailed breakdown on why she is townreading Serela. In fact, all her reads are well elucidated. I take issue with this:
I?m not sure if you read my entire post but I?m townreading BT now that I reread him with a level head
Because she apparently null reading him in her catch up post, so it's not clear how he got to town.
This:In the post where he votes for O4rfish, Refa just sheeps Bard?s case, in addition to ?what he already said about O4rfish?, implying that there was a hefty pile of reasons as to why he thought O4rfish was scum. The Unvote came with the justification of ?Well I never actually thought the things he was doing were that scummy so yea? which goes against his previous stance of conviction pretty hard.
on Refa looks pretty amazing and I need to review this for myself.
Late day 4 or 5 I called Elie out for switching her reads from scum!Refa to scum!Zak, in review I see I was mistaken, as she had clarified her Zak read prior to her vote shift that came here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178057.html#msg1178057) and I just can't read.
@SkyPaladin why are you just sheeping Refa and not really reading anything of my D3 at this point. I understand you're unmotivated but come on.
The reason was that during day 1, you were attacking me, and Refa made some comments that included a town read on me/did not vote. So I became naturally more trusting of Refa.
She sticks to her case and argues with Refa some more until the phase ends with a town Zak lynch.
Day 4.
Refa hate seems to have died down, and Shadoweh (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178346.html#msg1178346) is the new flavour.
Townread (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178357.html#msg1178357) on BT.
Troubling (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178832.html#msg1178832) list of reads.
Town: BT, Serela.
Mid: Sky/Refa/NNR
Scum: Oarfish/Shadoweh
I didn't really see a satisfactory conclusion to the Eli/Refa argument so I'm wondering how Refa got to mid-tier. Also BT placement is awkard - Elie also had Rawr as town-no-lynch.
Day ended with BT scum flip and Eli on Shadoweh, then surprise day 5.
Helped Oarfish kill himself. I'm not sure how to find this as a scummy action except to note that both Sky and Refa didn't vote that wagon.
Okay, now going to look at Refa. Then I'll contrast and see if I can get something useful out of it.
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Refa ISO
First (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1174962.html#msg1174962) content post of the game.
Basically shares the same meta with Rawr/BT at this point on defending Serela. Votes NNR. Other stuff not relevant to current game state.
Upgrades from Serela defense to Mitsuki attack in here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175094.html#msg1175094) which is largely consistent with the other flipped scum day 1.
What "Refa said about Oarfish"
You're joking, right? People are complaining about Bard being too abrasive and you're saying that he's suspiciously tolerant.
Kind of assuming the same about your Dormio vote. What bothers me more here is what that implies, namely that you don't really have any thoughts on the rest of the game.
In regards to his vote on Oarfish in this post. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1175475.html#msg1175475)
In addition to what I already said about Oarfish, Bard's case is also completely sheepable (basically tied up all of the issues I already had with the slot into one case haha).
In this post, Refa also changes his stance towards Mitsuki/NNR.
He also said this about Dormio:
I...wouldn't be opposed to a Dormio lynch because he hasn't really done anything that gives me a strong read on him despite him doing things (this is weird because he was more memorable in CYOUR), but I'd much rather lynch someone who I'm actually scumreading then just sort of meh on.
He also said this about Sky:
So he's not scummy because he overjustified himself, but because he waffled on a read that he earlier had conviction on despite no reason to do so (because town can waffle on their scumreads, but with no post from Serela, Sky's waffle doesn't make any sense)? Just want to make sure that we're on the same page here, because that's pretty legit (would sheep tier).
town has this CONVICTION that scum blows at faking, which makes me feel less sure about my SkyPal scumread (which was mostly a sheep off of Elieson
So at this point, Refa is subtly encouraging/approving all three of the wagons, which I happen to know were all town :V
Votes Oarfish, BT hammers, phase end.
Day 2.
Refa opens with a case on Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176193.html#msg1176193).
The case heavily focuses on her decision to unvote in the last few minutes of the phase end, and failing to vote for one of Oarfish/Dormio. Since we now know that Oarfish and Dormio were both town, we can't skew this argument based around perhaps-Oarfish-was-a-scumbuddy.
Refa doesn't really mention or focus on anything else out of Eli's day 1 conduct which I find curious.
Then this:
I'm sure that at least one of the scum is hiding amongst the inactives, but ugh fuck reading inactives (please help).
"at least one scum amongst (group)" is like Mafia 2008 scum tell. Red flag, especially when we now know that there was 'at least one scum'.
Refa's (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176737.html#msg1176737) ISO of Rawr.
Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum vi scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
Interesting. A good indication that scum!Refa is locked into an Eli vote at this point, which I will take into consideration.
I would be way more willing to sheep a read on him (since I literally forgot he existed until people started voting him today), but I just can't see scum being so inconsistent.
Maybe it's because I'm such a perfectionist as scum myself, but I can't come up with a scum explanation for him voting NNR despite townreading him
I can get why people are scumreading Dr. Rawr and I have no issues with them, it's just that one post that makes this frustrating for me.
All of this looks like he's washing his hands of his scum buddy imo. The counterpoint to this is that I know that if I was scum, I would be loathe to review my two buddies interactions because it's just so dangerous.
Then consolidate-hammer on Rawr. Day 3.
There's a short list of reads and then a post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177961.html#msg1177961) responding to a bunch of people. He suggests the reason he's not dead is because he's a scum designated mislynch. Possibly gives out why I'm not dead also - I'm townclearing Refa from early day 1. Suggests the idea of day 2 scum/scum wagons.
Response (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178075.html#msg1178075) to Eli's case on Refa.
Applies pressure for town!Rawr read.
Applies pressure for scum!Zak read. Accuses Eli of nitpicking.
Quoteslabwar. I think this is not easy to digest and I'll have to individually resolve each point to see who's side I'm on. Ugh.
I unvoted and didn't vote Dormio 9 minutes before phase end because like i've said four times, I didn't want to rush phase end early when people were around discussing things.
Dormio wasn't at L-1 for the longest time, so this is wrong.
I previously evaluated that Eli's unvote was plausible. Not so much because of conversation, as Eli states here, but because neither Oarfish or Dormio were her preferred scum reads. She was basically null on both of them. So while Refa is *correct*, this point does not stand against Eli.
When I have no idea how to read X player, and someone is evidently putting up a decent yet questionable case on X player, I might agree with it (and sheep it) but that doesn't mean I agree with it 100%. Mits had a decent case on O4rfish at the time but I didn't have any more confident reads at the time except SkyPaladin, but I wasn't 100% sold on it and I didn't think that she was either, hence my inquisition
-...If both of the wagons were town. I already said this. Why would you need to make an empty unvote as town?
I feel that this is a loaded question and that Refa is putting too much weight on the importance of the late phase unvote as the basis for scum!Eli.
Yes, I did drop my case on my #1 scumread at the time, because I couldn't get him lynched. People didn't agree with me and were voting elsewhere, making my vote on SkyPaladin neigh useless. I wasn't benefiting anyone by holding a vote where it wouldn't yield any fruit. I already argued my casing, and if the others don't agree with it, then that's their preference. We can't always lynch our #1 scumreads.
Dropping your #1 scumread isn't scummy, it's the fact that you never deigned to mention this until you were called out for it. Again, why?
I don't feel that Eli really did drop her number 1 scum read. On day 1, the wagon fell apart so she had to abandon it.
This point may have water on day 2. I don't see anybody specifically calling Eli out for it though (perhaps I missed it?) but she recases/revotes me around halfway through day 2.
I don't think this element by Refa is valid or fair.
I don't feel like Refa's reads are solid. Like, they have continuity, but they feel more or less locked in place
Seriously?
Regardless of whether I agree or not, 'seriously' is not an appropriate response. You should have asked for her to explain.
Questionable position with Dr Rawr, especially this line:Not currently relevant, but I don't see this as scum v scum interactions. Can't really get any reads off of Dr. Rawr individually though.
which was a direct response to Dr Rwar. It just doesn't read right...I can't put my finger on it exactly
Fuck you, I already explained why I was non conclusive. It's because a player I was null on for the entire game was still null after I ISOed him. This is such a farfetched conclusion, like how would I not know whether or not I'd want to bus him as scum when he was the leading wagon. Probably wouldn't annoy me as much if it wasn't hypocritical as fuck considering your own read on Dr. Rawr.
This is saying that because Eli is the one making the point, it's invalid. That's a logical fallacy; the point is or is not valid regardless of where it comes from.
My feeling is that Refa has over reacted to a weak point and I don't like it.
Presented a bad position on the O4rfish, granted you only retracted your vote because you thought it'd be silly for him to give up when you admit to never buying the "scumclaim" to begin with
How is my position on Oarfish bad.
I unvoted Oarfish because I didn't believe his scumslip was a scumslip, and SB's explanation of what he was actually saying didn't seem like something I could see scum saying. That's also why I cut the dude a lot of slack on D2, although some of his posts today are just ugh.
Let's go check what happened when Refa unvoted. Let's recall he was approving the Sky/Dormio wagon on day 1.
Just going to come out and say that I didn't actually believe that Oarfish really scumclaimed, which is why I asked him that question to begin with. I figured as town, he'd be indignant and say something along the lines of "how the fuck is that a scumclaim in any way". As scum, he'd probably try to attack...not me, because he wouldn't be able to counterwagon me, but my argument? I'm...not really sure how to explain the difference, but that's basically what I was looking for. Didn't expect him to ah, completely disappear off the face of the game. Kind of conflicted here because I don't see why he'd have to give up as scum this early (and I'm sure that one of the wagons is scum, but not both), but at the same time I don't really see why he'd just ditch everyone without an explanation as town. Ugh, mafia sucks.
SB: "He literally implied that he was glad he'd kept up his streak of rolling town. How was it a scumclaim?"
...Wait, was that what he meant when he said he was glad he'd kept up his streak? Fuuuuuuuck, scum never says stuff like that. Mreh, just going with this. ##BigPlays ##RefaIsBestMafiaPlayer ##DormioErgoScum
##Unvote
##Vote: Dormio
The explanation is at least relatable to what happened. So I can't take this either way for them; it's a null point.
So let's scroll up and summarise.
1 - Refa focusing on Eli's unvote and arguing the semantics for a scum case, rather than focusing on day 1/day 2 actual content e.g. tunneling Sky.
2 - Some logical fallacies from Refa and an unfair assessment of her reads.
3 - Counterattack is null at best.
So overall I'd say Refa's counterpoints failed. Eli's case still stands.
***Back to your regularly scheduled ISO***
In this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178077.html#msg1178077) states preference to lynch Eli over Zak, but would hammer Zak if necessary. Zak explodes.
Day 4.
Round 2 with Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178385.html#msg1178385).
That's uh...actually a reasonable explanation, I hate you.
I'm still not seeing what you found so townie about Dr. Rawr. If you mean the lack of scum intent, then I can agree because my issues were moreso with his play
Regardless, this seems like a difference in opinions over something that's actually telling to your alignment, so dropping it.
I've come to a decisive conclusion regarding you, and that's that I have no decisive conclusion at all
This looks like backpedaling to me. Refa didn't get support for an Eli lynch so he's withdrawing rather than trying to push it.
After this he votes on to Oarfish for 'previously stated reasons'.
List of reads (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178807.html#msg1178807), has BT null, and only one scum pick - Oarfish. Elie is now null. Strange town read on Shadoweh.
My gut says these reads are fabricated.
Then votes BT for consolidation, back to Oarfish when Sky/NNR are indecisive, and then Sky/NNR hammer before Refa can re-vote BT.
Day 5 is super short. I somehow didn't notice that Refa and Eli voted for Oarfish. So that's, sadly, probably null.
And I'll hit post, take a shower, come back and reflect.
-
Night kill analysis:
Team 1 - Refa, BT, Rawr
Team 2 - Eli, BT, Rawr
On day 1, BT/Rawr were defending Serela/Mitsuki, and to some extent, Bard. This may explain the reason for them being killed night 1/night 2, as a basis for "well the people we defended flipped green, so..." Alternatively they may also have been hit because they are probably the best players in the game. Serela defence may just be because she's useful as a late game mislynch and also because she hard counter attacks anybody who scum reads her.
After that, I'm speculating scum were knocking out the most town-read players. I don't think SB was being town read by that many players, but I've seen a lot of 'SB was being town read by everybody' type quotes so maybe I'm mistaken. I think SB was night hit because he was being town read.
Day 4 ended with Shadoweh/Oarfish/Serela all confirmed town, with a strong likelihood that Sky/NNR/Refa were town also. The only player not in that group was Eli.
Scum absolutely had to hit one of Shadoweh/Oarfish/Serela, and of the three, Serela was the most town having accurately been early on both the Rawr and BT wagons. Probably the optimal hit.
Shadoweh was a sub-optimal hit; she was being scum/mistrusted by several players, not really actively contributing and a viable mislynch option because of several lurking accusations.
Shadoweh's main content near phase end was posting some tallies and saying the scum team was Eli and BT, so I have to consider the reason Shadoweh was hit was because she was scumreading Eli after BT flipped. The question is: Did Eli make the hit, or did Refa make the hit to frame Eli? After day 5, probably every player in the game (myself included) was ready to lynch Eli. So I don't think it was necessary for Eli to make a sub-optimal hit to preserve her name, it wouldn't matter who she hit, we'd all think the same thing.
Probably the natural way that day 5 would have gone down would be we lynched Eli, and if she flipped town, she'd probably have shot NNR, as stated when she listed her picks on day 5. I think her 'forgetting' Shadoweh was already out of the game is null, in the same way Refa 'forgot' scum probably has to night kill. Eli was already suspicious for voting Shadoweh, so I think it's more likely Shadoweh was killed to further implicate Eli/get a free mislynch and shot on not!Refa, and go into LYLO with Refa/Oarfish/somebody who was town reading Refa. EG Sky.
I've also noted Refa saying on more than one occasion that the kills don't make sense. Contrast with me saying that they make a lot of sense!
I'm probably going with scum!Refa at the moment.
Vote analysis is next.
-
I forgot to add that Refa was also defending Serela/Bard and attacking Mitsuki to some extent, in the same manner as BT and Rawr. I also found that BT/Rawr/Refa/Eli were all up for a Sky lynch, and in particular, Refa reversed his initial Sky read to agree with what Eli wrote. I think this lends more to scum!Refa than Eli.
Votes;
Well actually going through the ISO's kind of made this clear already.
On day 1, Sky was Eli's preferred lynch. She was unable to consolidate on to what became two town wagons.
On day 1, Refa didn't have a preferred lynch, and went NNR -> Oarfish -> Dormio.
On day 2, Sky was Eli's preferred lynch, and didn't get to consolidate.
On day 2, Eli was Refa's preferred lynch, but hammered Rawr instead.
On day 3, Refa was Eli's preferred lynch, but consolidated on to Zak.
On day 3, Eli was Refa's preferred lynch, and didn't get to consolidate.
On day 4, Shadoweh was Eli's preferred lynch, and didn't get to consolidate.
On day 4, Oarfish was Refa's preferred lynch, but consolidated on to BT at near phase end, then back to Oarfish.
On day 5 both of you assisted Oarfish's murder-suicide with Serela.
Refa never scum read any of BT or Rawr, and only ever voted by consolidation.
***
I don't feel this is conclusive either way.
I'm going to work now, I'll think about it some more when I get back in a couple hours.
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Elie, what do you make of Sky's case on me? Making a post right now (sorry, not an ISO, I just do not have the time to make a detailed ISO of both of you with how my schedule is), but this is kind of important to my read on you, so yeah.
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it...
it makes so much sense
in particular,
Shadoweh's main content near phase end was posting some tallies and saying the scum team was Eli and BT, so I have to consider the reason Shadoweh was hit was because she was scumreading Eli after BT flipped. The question is: Did Eli make the hit, or did Refa make the hit to frame Eli? After day 5, probably every player in the game (myself included) was ready to lynch Eli. So I don't think it was necessary for Eli to make a sub-optimal hit to preserve her name, it wouldn't matter who she hit, we'd all think the same thing.
Probably the natural way that day 5 would have gone down would be we lynched Eli, and if she flipped town, she'd probably have shot NNR, as stated when she listed her picks on day 5. I think her 'forgetting' Shadoweh was already out of the game is null, in the same way Refa 'forgot' scum probably has to night kill. Eli was already suspicious for voting Shadoweh, so I think it's more likely Shadoweh was killed to further implicate Eli/get a free mislynch and shot on not!Refa, and go into LYLO with Refa/Oarfish/somebody who was town reading Refa. EG Sky.
It's an unbelievable amount of effort which could go either way honestly, but I think it's strange that after all of my d1 thoughts and pretty much universal scumread on the game's plane, that he'd read into me, and things aimed at the both of us, with such intricacy
I need to sleep on it, and reread his posts with a clear head. It's a lot to absorb but I'm finding myself at this moment, agreeing with him. When I get to work tomorrow I'll take some time to the side early on and see if my thoughts change.
However I read what's happened and regardless of what I look at, I feel like end-of-phase vote analysis isn't going to give me a conclusive read, but that means I'm dumping my hopes on Nightkill analysis and theoretical WIFOMs, it's driving me nuts
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Going to get kicked off my computer internet in a few, will finish my post when I'm back on it. FWIW, I'd expect you to 1) defend me as town (mostly because there's no reason for you to defend me as scum when there'd be a very easy mislynch on your hands) or 2) just vote me as scum (since there'd be a very good chance that Skype would vote me and throw in that scenario). Not sure what to make of your waffling, please have a more definite read on me (hell, I'd welcome a hard scumread at this point; sure, it'd make this even more stressful for me, but at least I'd have a better idea of who is scum).
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Sky, I'm not famous for super bussing (where did you even get that idea), but if you thought I was, then I'm confused as to how this didn't warrant mention elsewhere in your analysis. For example, if someone like SB went through the game without bussing like a champ, I would react differently than if someone else (say Mitsuki) had done the same.
I'm not really seeing how BT's content clears you. You say that he was constantly pushing you, but all I'm seeing is one or two complaints in your general direction without even a vote to back them up. It's a disconnect between his words and his actions (especially where he stated "can we just lynch Sky Paladin" without actually putting a vote on you; reads as him deciding whether or not a bus would be worth it), which doesn't clear you but ironically enough does the opposite.
However, I do agree that your interactions with Dr. Rawr are more favorable. For one, he actually voted you and pushed you for a decent portion of the first day. Secondly, he had legitimate interactions with you. Overall, this points towards Town Paladin.
Your townread on Elieson is either forced or negligent, depending on your alignment. Why is he town for casing you (he didn't even analyze your later content that day) FYPOV? This only makes logical sense if you're scum. I agree with you that Elie's catch up post was good (particularly wherein he cases BT for a trivial reason, when it stands to reason he'd have a much more solid case if he was bussing a buddy), but earlier you yourself said that it read as a bus; what happened to that read? I don't have any issues with his early D3 content either, so nothing much to say here. Still think his scumread on me was bad in context, and Elie of all people should know why. I also can't see how his position on Serela/O4rfish parallels many town flips and yourself, considering that he was hard townreading Serela and scum reading O4rfish (or how I'm scum for sharing a similar stance myself). But maybe I'm missing something and you can tell me how this mirrors your position on either of the slots? Anyways, moving onto your case on me.
I really don't see how all of those are scum tells. You say that most of my posts point towards me being scum. Looking through your post by post analysis, they prove exactly the opposite from my point of view. Firstly, you say that I am acting in accordance with flipped scum based on the fact that I townread Serela at around the same time; I'm confused as to why this is a scummy play on my part. Anyways, while I was casing O4rfish (the Dormio vote was for consolidation), your later post which showed me "casing" you is...not actually that at all? Earlier I mentioned that I'd sheep Elie's case on you, with your quoted post showing that I wasn't confident in doing that anymore, owing to my Elie scumread. I'm not sure how that constitutes as subtlety encouraging your wagon, unless you have a different definition of that phrase than I do.
You should take another look at my Elieson case, because it wasn't based on him waffling on his scumbuddy O4rfish; actually it was the opposite (and I said numerous times that I didn't see them as scumbuddies, so I'm not quite sure how you managed to not pick up on that), wherein Elieson made more sense as scum if Dormio and O4rfish were town (which would explain his apathy towards the lynch). Elie had good interactions with scum as well, otherwise it would have been SO EASY to go into today with a vote on him; as it is, I'm not ready to dismiss the possibility of Scum Paladin. Regarding your issues with my read on Dr. Rawr, I wouldn't have waffled on him so much if I knew he was scum beforehand. Additionally, if my interactions were as bad as you suggest, why were you townreading me for them earlier? What changed? I'll fully admit that I was confirmation biasing Elieson hard by Day 3 (him scumreading a townread of mine didn't help), mostly because I was super confident that Elieson would flip scum and after he cased me, it made me even more sure that I was on the right track. I also don't see how my reaction to Elieson is a logical fallacy either. I never said his point was invalid because he made it, only that that's the reason it annoyed me so much (the point would be invalid no matter who said it, but it wouldn't have phased me as much if it came from someone else). I already explained my read on Elie's Day 1 content (it wouldn't be telling without a flip from you, which still hasn't happened) and while I agree that in retrospect I should have paid closer attention to his D2 content, your second and third summaries don't hold any water (as I should have proven in this paragraph alone).
Regarding your next post, I uh...am not sure what you're getting at. There were plenty of people who were willing to lynch Elieson or have him vigged by the time I reconsidered my scumread on him, so there would be no reason for me to change my read on him as scum. Look, I don't particularly mind you having issues with my posts as long as they're well explained; by the same coin, it's irritating when you say things like "my gut says these reads are fabricated" this late in the game without any explanations. Please do so in the future.
My overall thoughts on you is that you're either town with a serious case of confirmation bias or you're scum. Your town read on Elieson isn't well substantiated, and neither is your scumread on me (several of your points either make no sense, such as me killing Shadoweh to incriminate Elieson when he likely would have been vigged/lynched regardless, and you outright misrep me in others as I've proven above). I'm leaning towards the latter at the moment, less so because of the former two reads (it'll be easier to ascertain your motivation regarding both of those when you reply to me) but moreso because your first post seems to have been made with the express purpose of clearing yourself and I don't like what that says about your priorities.
Don't think you're off the hook just because I'm leaning Sky over you at the moment, Elie! When you're finishing your own impressions of Sky's posts, I'd also like you to analyze his first post and his read on you. Is it legit? FYPOV, does it come across as buddying to you in any way? Is his quick turnaround on you justified (as in, it makes sense that he'd come to such a conclusion considering his thought process) or does it seem forced? Why? This also applies to his case on me, but I figured you'd talk about that anyways so whatever. Anyways, with your replies and Sky's, I'm reasonably confident that I can figure this game out (well, as confident as anyone can be in LYLO, at any rate). Getting scumread by Sky was a blessing in disguise, honestly (otherwise I'd be waffling like crazy trying to figure out which of the two of you is actually scum).
-
^Phone post, so excuse the typoes.
-
I'm not town reading Eli. I'm seeing Refa as more likely to be scum between the pair of you.
I was town reading Serela/Oarfish/Shadoweh. I was clearing NNR based on counterwagon and interactions with Rawr.
Neither of you are clearly "town" and I'm not done with my analysis. I just ran out of time and presently I'm weighing "is the game really just scum!Eli" vs something more complex. I love to push the complex but I'm also often over paranoid.
ATM I am concerned that Refa seems to want to play Sky/Eli off against each other. It strikes me that as town a player would want to work out which of the other two are scum, and that is not content I have seen.
Refa's response doesn't read like a case. It reads more like "my version of events is different to yours" and that's not really an attempt to establish scum!Sky.
Show me a Eli case that's too good to ignore, show me a Refa case that's too good to ignore.
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Also on my phone lol. This is mobile mafia:
Refa can you please explain more about how Eli "should have defended you" given she spent most of the game scum reading us lol.
Anyway I have more work to do.
Makes me wonder why scum Refa would hit NNR actually. I'll have to check if that is viable.
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Been reading up on Mitsuki/Bard's ISO to see if there's any interactions that might bear fruit. Mitsuki seemed to interact a lot with both Eli and Refa but not to any degree that I think warranted execution. Scum didn't hit Mitsuki because of what she said/did. I perceived Refa/BT/Rawr all attacking Mitsuki/defending Serela to some extent. I think they took her out because of who she was.
Day 1, Bard had some stronger interactions with Eli, mainly shutting down her push against me.
Day 2, reactions to the NNR wagon started by Bard, here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176484.html#msg1176484)
Tell me why the Elieson or BT lynches are superior to NNR, who also overreacted heavily to being voted by O4rfish and seems too bothered to just be a simple townie!
Other than that, it appears Bard's position on the Rawr wagon made him confirmed town. This probably was the main motivation for his hit, plus his general accuracy on BT and possibly Eli. No mention of Refa.
SB
Case and vote on Eli day 2. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176330.html#msg1176330)
I kind of want to vote Rawr because his content is really sparse and uninspiring where it exists. I also remember his alignment generally being transparent in some of his town games but I haven't seen Town!Rawr in forever so I dunno.
Refa's Eli case is good and I feel like Eli's BT vote today doesn't make sense. Cutting out five minutes of discussion time isn't incredibly anti-town unless you think BT blocked scum!Oarfish's lynch... except Eli states that he's townreading Oarfish. I also don't think that the way he seems to have dropped Sky (by not mentioning him at all) is realistic if he was scumreading him because he was Eli's top suspect yesterday. So the fact that he didn't even give Sky a passing mention on it's own is really weird, and when his reasons from voting BT aren't very solid it makes even less sense.
SB early day 3 reads included (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177186.html#msg1177186) vote on Eli and null reads on Shadoweh/BT/Oarfish.
That's about it.
***
Let's jump to day 5/turbolynch of Oarfish.
At this point everybody in the game thought Eli was the last scum, with the possible exception of Refa for obvious reasons.
Let's put on Refa's shoes.
Who thinks Refa is scum -> only Eli has seriously pressured or voted Refa at any point, iirc. Confirmed towns outside of Oarfish and Serela are basically Sky from day 1 interactions and NNR from day 3 counterwagon to Rawr. Basically the only person who is scum reading Refa to any degree is Eli.
If scum!Refa hits Eli, then he's going into LYLO with Sky and NNR who basically at this point are all town reading each other, and Refa.
If scum!Refa hit Sky, then he's going into LYLO with Eli and NNR, with Eli scumreading Refa, and NNR ...
Let's check NNR's iso.
(http://i.imgur.com/2woM9cS.jpg)
am I doing it right
omg yes.
Anyway. Wow how many times have I scrolled past 'vote oarfish' this game @__@;
Day 2 Sky is town. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176664.html#msg1176664)
Day 3 scumreads (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1177196.html#msg1177196) are Shadoweh/Serela/Eli.
Late day 3reads (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178023.html#msg1178023) -
Town - Sky/Serela
Scum - Eli/Shadoweh/Oarfish
Day 4 now favouring Shadoweh over Eli (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1178579.html#msg1178579).
Day 5 last post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1179514.html#msg1179514) - Elison and nobody else.
NNR is hard town reading Sky. No reason for scum!Sky to shoot NNR forever. Townskip. Answers Refa's question in here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1179595.html#msg1179595) about what NNR thinks of Sky.
NNR never ever mentions Refa except in reads list that notably lists Refa as less-town than Sky. NNR is hard town reading Sky. Sky is town reading Refa. Sky last stated null read on Eli.
Eli has scum read on both Sky and Refa.
Scum!Refa wants to go to a LYLO with Sky and Eli, not Sky and NNR. Motive for Refa shot on NNR.
More plausible than 'lets frame an Eli' scenario. It's straight up scum motivation for My Little LYLO.
Let's put on Eli's shoes.
It's day 5 and Oarfish/Serela just killed each other in glorious combat to win favour from the Lich King, Bard.
Sky/Refa/NNR/Eli left in the game.
NNR/Sky both stated intent to lynch Eli and are both town reading each other basically.
Refa:
I get that Eli makes the most sense as scum by PoE
So basically the choice doesn't matter. It's bad no matter what you do.
***
I'll leave it here for tonight, and see what you two can bring up tomorrow.
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There's Phase End in the other game that SB and I are hosting on serenesforest.
Going to get kicked off my computer internet in a few, will finish my post when I'm back on it. FWIW, I'd expect you to 1) defend me as town (mostly because there's no reason for you to defend me as scum when there'd be a very easy mislynch on your hands) or 2) just vote me as scum (since there'd be a very good chance that Skype would vote me and throw in that scenario). Not sure what to make of your waffling, please have a more definite read on me (hell, I'd welcome a hard scumread at this point; sure, it'd make this even more stressful for me, but at least I'd have a better idea of who is scum).
I would only defend you if I both:
? disagreed with the cases brought up
? was /that/ confident with you being town
After reading your cases on Sky/Me and Sky's cases on Refa/Me, I'm stuck thinking:
There is too much speculation on the other's night kill submit by Sky
Refa's defense to Sky's casing seems really weak, in that it's passive and slightly emotional (little citation). I feel if Refa were to attempt more defense, he'd be more specific with his defense points to flat out counter Sky, rather than say "i've said this X times already".
among other thoughts. I dunno my head is too scattered at work to focus but I'm not as much siding with SkyPaladin as much as it is he brings up quite a few points that I feel Refa's not really countering quite as strongly as I thought he would've
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If scum!Refa hits Eli, then he's going into LYLO with Sky and NNR who basically at this point are all town reading each other, and Refa.
If scum!Refa hit Sky, then he's going into LYLO with Eli and NNR, with Eli scumreading Refa, and NNR ...
This makes significantly more sense as a likely occurance each time i reread it since I've been thinking and thinking and I can't figure out why nightkill was on Neko last night.
Like, fmpov with neko town, we would be going into this phase with:
Sky could shoot Refa, leaving Neko and Me alive.
Sky could shoot Neko, leaving Refa and Me alive.
Sky could shoot Me, leaving Neko and Refa alive.
? Neko's reads appear to be Sky>Refa>Me
? Refa's reads appear to be Neko>Sky>Me
? Sky's reads appear to be Refa>Neko>Elie
? My's reads are more or less Refa>Neko>Sky
Universally, I look worse to everybody which is why i likely didn't die, plus my reads have been pretty off. Refa's been a pretty heavy townread across the board, leaving Sky/Neko somewhere in the middle. That being said, Refa should've died. Sky being scum means that the likely kill for last night hit a guy that everyone was more or less ok with, leaving me and the guy who townread him well enough to remain alive. Refa would've been the optimal kill, leaving Neko to probably follow his lean more and dump a vote on me. Refa being scum means that the optimal kill is Either/Or, and not me since i was already on the chopping block. There's no one to frame or benefit, he just needs to make a strategic kill and since 2/3 of the players were fine and I was obviously scumreading Sky, it'd make sense to kill Neko and assume that I would pursue my Sky scumread that I've been holding since early D1.
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You have 72 hours to not lose the game. Good Fucking Luck.
Yea thanks.
5. Mitsuki Vhaltz - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1
6. Bardiche - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
10. SB - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
3. ActionDan Shadoweh - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
1. NekoRex - Vanilla Townie, killed Night 5
34 hours left in phase. Right now, I feel more comfortable voting for Refa, which is the last thing I thought I would be saying after last night. SkyPaladin would've had to really mindgame to pull this off, if he were scum.
Kill patterns need more analysis from here. End-of-phase vote analysis is not giving me results that I thought it would.
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Identifying Dr Rawr as a player who may not bus, given post quality and content, Refa wasn't really brought up at all. It's something I tend to do as scum (talk about a weaker link on my team, and ignore the stronger link). I'm far from a bussing champion though,
SB teach me your ways.
N1 Kill makes sense on Mits/Vhaltz the more I think about it as it's a kill on a townread (from those that were read anyway). I don't think that this would have had much to do with neither Refa nor SkyPaladin given the circumstances of the slot...It's a bit of a stretch but it's the only thing I can realistically think of. Doesn't help much right now, but looking as association of Refa and SkyPaladin with confirmed scum, Refa was held in a lower regard. I can't dismiss the idea that my scumplay is something that others do when they play as scum since few people are really good as scum, and evidently Rawr and BT coasting =/= good scum play.
Refa's reaction to the SB death seems genuine enough though and that's what's throwing me off. I can't say anything on the Shadoweh death since I guess my view of Shadoweh is skewed since i was sorta scumreading him in the sense that I don't feel like his word was worth that much given the reactions of other players. One thing Refa's good at though is appearing confused, since that's just a playstyle that he has naturally. It's difficult to ascertain when he does it so damn well
I already discussed Neko's death. This leaves Bard's death, which I think was more of a tell for the others and less for Refa/SkyPaladin.
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I really can't go into detail because right now I'm not able to read/focus on D1 and D2 interactions with Bard but from what I remember, BT was under more fire than anyone else and Bard was still looking universally town
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I'm not town reading Eli. I'm seeing Refa as more likely to be scum between the pair of you.
I was town reading Serela/Oarfish/Shadoweh. I was clearing NNR based on counterwagon and interactions with Rawr.
Neither of you are clearly "town" and I'm not done with my analysis. I just ran out of time and presently I'm weighing "is the game really just scum!Eli" vs something more complex. I love to push the complex but I'm also often over paranoid.
ATM I am concerned that Refa seems to want to play Sky/Eli off against each other. It strikes me that as town a player would want to work out which of the other two are scum, and that is not content I have seen.
Refa's response doesn't read like a case. It reads more like "my version of events is different to yours" and that's not really an attempt to establish scum!Sky.
Fair enough regarding your townreads. Kind of need you to finish your replies on me so that I can have a better read on you.
My response isn't a case. A case would involve an ISO, for starters, not just reading through a series of posts; that's just what I had the time to do. This is why I asked Elieson about it, since I figure he's in a similar boat as well (and it'd be hypocritical to ask someone else to crank out an ISO when you can't do it yourself). There were several points that made Scum Sky more likely, but the problem is that the majority of your content could have come from either alignment (you misrepping me is bad play, but it could be confirmation bias). Hence why I'm waiting for your reply, since it should prove whether or not that was intentional.
Also on my phone lol. This is mobile mafia:
Refa can you please explain more about how Eli "should have defended you" given she spent most of the game scum reading us lol.
Anyway I have more work to do.
Mobile mafia OP lol.
I should have worded that better. Eli doesn't need to defend me to be town, but that's something that would prove to me that he was town.
After reading your cases on Sky/Me and Sky's cases on Refa/Me, I'm stuck thinking:
There is too much speculation on the other's night kill submit by Sky
Refa's defense to Sky's casing seems really weak, in that it's passive and slightly emotional (little citation). I feel if Refa were to attempt more defense, he'd be more specific with his defense points to flat out counter Sky, rather than say "i've said this X times already".
among other thoughts. I dunno my head is too scattered at work to focus but I'm not as much siding with SkyPaladin as much as it is he brings up quite a few points that I feel Refa's not really countering quite as strongly as I thought he would've
1) I don't see how I haven't adequately countered Sky's points. Are we reading the same response?
2) What are these points? Anyways, can you stop with the "I feel like Refa would" and "as I thought Refa would have done", because that implies that I will play the same way each time, which is an unreasonable expectation on your part (hi Bard).
Universally, I look worse to everybody which is why i likely didn't die, plus my reads have been pretty off. Refa's been a pretty heavy townread across the board, leaving Sky/Neko somewhere in the middle. That being said, Refa should've died. Sky being scum means that the likely kill for last night hit a guy that everyone was more or less ok with, leaving me and the guy who townread him well enough to remain alive. Refa would've been the optimal kill, leaving Neko to probably follow his lean more and dump a vote on me. Refa being scum means that the optimal kill is Either/Or, and not me since i was already on the chopping block. There's no one to frame or benefit, he just needs to make a strategic kill and since 2/3 of the players were fine and I was obviously scumreading Sky, it'd make sense to kill Neko and assume that I would pursue my Sky scumread that I've been holding since early D1.
That's what infuriates me. Why was I left alive over Neko? The only reasoning I can come up with is that I'm less likely to erratically change my vote (see: previous confirmation bias)? Scum Sky would have needed me to tunnel on you for the win, and when I didn't do that, well haha. If you're scum, then it doesn't benefit you regardless of who you kill (although you'd probably be the only person to leave me alive over everyone else since I wasn't as sure about scumreading you). As scum, the optimal kill for me would be Skype because you'd have been already willing to kill Neko and he was townreading me as well (Sky points out that it was less than him, but that wouldn't really make much of a difference in that scenario).
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Also it'd be cool if you could answer my questions from earlier...
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>LYLO
>You guys* decide not to post anyways
I quit.
*May not include Sky Paladin based on his timezones, they're complicated and how the fuck do they even work
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Timezones: I'm about 16 hours a day ahead of America and I'm busy on weekends.
I'm obv town so I'm basically waiting to see if either of you are going to screw up and vote me or make a good case on the other. You don't need to ISO to case. Just to "this person is scum because xyz" and then I'll look into it.
At this stage ill be voting Refa so I'm hoping that a town!Refa will do something before then.
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It's hard to do anything when neither of you are contributing content for whatever reason. OK fine, work with me here. Explain why you're obvious town (this shouldn't take a long time, I'd assume?), and if I agree with your reasoning, then I'll case Elieson.
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Thanks for the reply, Sky (heh, rhyming)! It was sooooo elucidating. Anyways, since you don't seem to be on at the moment and my chronic insomnia (or just poor sleep schedule, take your pick) is rearing its ugly head again, let's get through with casing you two once and for all. Again, I would really appreciate those replies still but considering we're pretty much cutting it to the wire as is, I'll have to go without them for now. That being said, let's do this. It's hero time.
Sky Paladin
Sky, I'm not going to mince words with you here, but your Day 1 sucks. You tunneled on Serela for the entirety of it (with your reasoning being primarily based on her claiming scum in RVS and her responses to your earlier vote, which is an effortless case to make as scum), which looks really bad on you now considering that she's confirmed town. What gets me is that you even admitted in one of your earlier posts that you weren't really paying attention to Serela's other content. However, in your defense...your defense from Dr. Rawr reads as super genuine (and I'm not sure why he'd immediately go for the bus on you as scum on D1 (more rhyming!), considering scum basically always loses after a D1 scum lynch), which is ~a thing~ in favor of Sky Town. Anyways, your later list post was very good overall, so consider it the exception to the rule of your D1 sucking. Your final vote was on Dormio, which isn't really particularly noteworthy considering you cased him earlier that day (for sheeping Dr. Rawr's scumread on you).
You didn't really do much on Day 2, all things considered; however, what little content you did put out was fine. Particularly telling points from your wall post are where you said that you'd rather keep NNR over Dr. Rawr, especially considering that Dr. Rawr had attempted to counter wagon him by that point. Serela tunnel is still annoying but at least you actually took the effort to analyze her actual cases and content this time around, which is good. Additionally, you expanded on your BT case, which is also good because I'd expected you to have dropped it as scum by now considering that you were already supporting a lynch on Dr. Rawr. Your final vote of the day was on Elieson, worst associative read ever.
Day 3 content is fine...for the most part, but there's not really much that's particularly telling (considering a lot of it is spent explaining your vote on Elieson, which is hard to read into now because the dude hasn't flipped yet) besides you explaining why you'd lynch Elieson over Zak (as scum, it'd make more sense for you to support the Zak wagon that day and continue the Elieson tunnel the next, especially considering that Zak was an easy mislynch at the time). You ended your vote on Elieson again, brill.
Finally on Day 4. Your suggestion of lynching one of NNR/O4rfish so that they can vig the other is horrible considering that you were townreading NNR for being the counterwagon to Dr. Rawr earlier. Why would you ever want a townread shot? Reversal on the earlier BT scumread is bad as well, especially considering that none of the flips really pointed towards him being town (so I don't understand the reasoning behind this). Don't like your attitude towards Shadoweh as well, because it's a chainsaw defense of BT. Like...what did she actually do that was scummy? Although...I don't see why you'd push Serela over O4rfish late into the day as scum, considering that Serela was far more likely to shoot BT (not to mention that it doesn't make sense for you to jump off a town wagon as scum only to...jump onto another town wagon, moments before deadline). You did end up contributing to the BT lynch at the end, which is good.
Let's talk about your Day 5 content! Wait, fuck all happened on Day 5 nevermind...moving on to Day 6.
I've already commented on my issues with your Day 6 content, but that being said, I don't really get why Scum!You would intentionally choose to case me over Elieson. I'm a much harder mislynch than Elieson (especially considering that he was townreading me on the previous day), and if you were planning on tunneling on me, killing Elieson over NNR would have served your purposes far better (basically the only way I can see you in the current scenario as scum is if you made a mistake when you sent in your kill). Still would like for you to respond to my issues with your posts today because I did end up ISOing myself (desperate times call for desperate measures) and like...I'm obvious town as fuck? There's so much stuff that you'd never catch me dead saying as scum in years.
Elieson
Dude, you tunneled as much as Sky did on D1. Wonderful. However, yours isn't nearly as bad as his because Sky isn't confirmed town like Serela and your initial reasoning was based on his actual content in lieu of tunneling over a minor issue. A notable point in your favor is that you had minor scumreads on both (!) of the flipped scum, which is good for obvious reasons. My only problem with this is that you barely mentioned anyone else, which leads me to believe that you hadn't been reading the game past Sky's responses to you at that point in time. But in that case, why mention BT/Dr. Rawr at all? It reads as you padding your content with something that you wouldn't be called out for later, especially considering that you never actually follow up on either of these reads (you drop both of them on D2 and D3 respectively, and your D2 scumread on BT doesn't even take your case on him here into mind). I will admit that I overinflated the scum intent of your ED1 content (reading your ISO, it wasn't nearly as bad as I made it out to be), and I apologize for that. Anyways, you later analyzed Sky's posts (whereas earlier your case was based solely on his ED1 content), which is good. You end the day with your vote on Sky Paladin, which is amazing for associative reads!...No wait, actually it's awful. Thanks for nothing.
Your Day 2 starts with you voting BT for a trivial reason, and...I'm not sure if you'd actually do this as scum? Surely you'd have more legitimate reasons to vote your scumbuddy. Regardless, you don't really do much until the end of the phase, wherein you promptly thrust out a huge wall post. I really don't like how you even mentioned that you would self vote, because FYPOV you are confirmed town and self voting would be akin to throwing the game. Your confidence in your BT read is townie, but in the same post you townread Dr. Rawr because..."FWIW, I think Rawr's townie in that he's advocating understanding behind the whole "No Lynch" thing, which I agree with"...how is that townie at all? Reads as you trying to get the heat off of your scumbuddy without committing to a scumread on NNR (which would look super bad after they both flipped, and basically make you confirmed scum). You end the day with your vote on Sky Paladin again, which isn't the worst thing ever and is in accordance with your earlier reads, so it's a null tell.
Day 3 begins with another wall post from you, whoo boy. I don't like how you say there are zero clears right after a scum lynch; the associative reads to clear several townies were there and I don't like how you intentionally ignored the opportunity to do so (reminds me of how I basically do the same thing as scum to avoid getting PoE'd later on). Not really bothered by your scumread on Zak (although there are signs of mixed priorities here, considering you mentioned that Zak was an upper tier scumread and yet you voted me over him), considering flipped town basically had the same reads themselves. It's a null tell. The BT turnaround is pretty much the most revealing post you could have made, considering that you 180'd on him right after the other scum (Dr. Rawr) flipped; it's just so obviously opportunistic, I don't even. Like, I can buy a BT turnaround from town. What I find harder to swallow is that you'd be bothered by both of the flipped scum on D1, scumread one of them on D2 while townreading the one who was actually under fire (because you took another look at him), and then finally 180 on the scumread you were pushing on D2 because you...took another look on him, of course. Seriously, going to invoke Occam's Razor here and say the chances of you fucking up this badly as town is nil. Don't like your case on me, but I've already talked about that enough as is and I'm sick of defending myself. Later on, you retroactively justify your townread on Dr. Rawr, which is fine (nothing really telling to be found here). I do like your ISO of Sky, though. Your later vote on Zak reads as a chainsaw defense of BT (since a portion of your case on him was calling him out for having a bad case on BT), which wouldn't be nearly as telling if not for the fact that you were scumreading BT earlier yourself (before the 180). Your response to me is good (and I agree that my earlier case on you wasn't great) FWIW. Final vote is on Zak, which isn't really telling because it's the vote I'd expect you to make regardless of alignment.
On Day 4, you again do a chainsaw defense of BT (how are you so confident that BT is town?), except this time with Shadoweh instead of Zak. Your vote on her is scummy because you're pretty much casing her for bad play over actual scum intent. Your later reads post is mostly good, but again you're holding onto your Shadoweh vote for the sake of it even though it wasn't your strongest read at the time.
Nice Day 5, bro.
It's cool that you townread me on Day 6 (and previously on Day 5 as well), but that makes the turnaround on me today all the more baffling. For being your strongest townread, you sure were quick to say "actually yeah, Sky's right after all and Refa is scum". It's not the turnaround itself that bothers me here, but rather how quickly you made it without much apparent conflict? Like, if my strongest townread was being scumread, I'd be a hella lot more conflicted than you appear to be. But OK, let's say Sky's case is pretty much the best there ever was and that I was obvious scum. This still makes your later waffle on me bad because you're subtly pushing for my mislynch without committing to a scumread on me. BTW, the reason I wanted more responses (specifically, after my replies to Sky) were that I'd expect you to have a more definite read on me as town. Not more waffles.
Conclusion
Definitely leaning Scum Elie after these ISO's. While some of Sky's content is pretty scummy (in particular, most of his D1 content and his willingness to lynch/vig NNR despite townreading the slot on Day 4), upon a reread he does indeed have much better associative reads than Elieson. Like wow, after doing a comprehensive read of Elieson's content after BT's flip, it's like...how did some of this stuff ever get past me? He basically townread scum on days when they were viable wagons and scumread them when they weren't...I just can't see town playing like that ever.
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I got home and after doing chores and stuff I just fell asleep and work up now holy bananas 14+ hrs of sleep.
Sky you are not obvitown otherwise refa and/or I would've already been voting for each other do please drop that crap
Lemme look back at these questions I missed
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Actually you both did it I misread refas post that included it. In a game with only vanillas, there's no such thing as a clear you dolts
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Hey Elieson, are you still on?
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Yea im posting but I gotta help my father with a fence so I'm grinding out answers to the questions that i think i missed
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##Unvote
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I QUIT
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Elie, what do you make of Sky's case on me? Making a post right now (sorry, not an ISO, I just do not have the time to make a detailed ISO of both of you with how my schedule is), but this is kind of important to my read on you, so yeah.
Like I said. His casing opened my eyes to many things about you that I never really even thought about. After our debacle where we just kinda tore and tunneled into eachother (for the second game in a row), it wrapped up leaving me just confused and I tried to step back and not think about you since I felt like my reads were bias'd. Sky's casing said things about you that quite honestly I don't think I could've come up with, with my disposition towards you at the time.
Don't think you're off the hook just because I'm leaning Sky over you at the moment, Elie! When you're finishing your own impressions of Sky's posts, I'd also like you to analyze his first post and his read on you. Is it legit? FYPOV, does it come across as buddying to you in any way? Is his quick turnaround on you justified (as in, it makes sense that he'd come to such a conclusion considering his thought process) or does it seem forced? Why? This also applies to his case on me, but I figured you'd talk about that anyways so whatever. Anyways, with your replies and Sky's, I'm reasonably confident that I can figure this game out (well, as confident as anyone can be in LYLO, at any rate). Getting scumread by Sky was a blessing in disguise, honestly (otherwise I'd be waffling like crazy trying to figure out which of the two of you is actually scum).
Yes, I think it's legit, (and not buddying), in that I feel like he's finally paying attention to what I'm doing given the scum flips, rather than trying to case me for associative reads like everybody does in these vanilla-only games. The challenge right now, is for me to determine if what he's said has scum intent behind them (because right now it's a 50/50 even if I like what he says). Analyzing semantics is helpful and working in his favor because his style of posting aka linguistics isn't really different in his sudden elie-is-not-as-scummy-as-refa post.
I mean, look at the entire game following D2. I've been scumread by anybody. Anyone lazy could even scumread me with enough effort, and probably get away with a vote on me (look at what happened with O4rfish and the inconclusiveness with everybody who voted for him).
Regardless of his reads on me (which I'm not going to hyperanalyze because whatever, they're his reads on me, I'm glad he's paying attention to me, even if he were scumreading me which is something?) He's paying more attention to you, which for what it's worth, is something that you have to agree with me on is something that wasn't really done in the grand scope of the game. You just kinda cruised through on town-enough play, and to see you get hyperanalyzed by someone other than me (since we already slaughtered eachother on what D3?) is cool. I feel like it's SkyPaladin's responsibility to do that to you at this point, so it's really difficult to get a tell from it since there's only two people he could analyze right now, and if he ignored you and continued scumreading me, I'd be calling him lazyscum and probably have voted him at the 36 hour mark.
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##Unvote
BRO WUT
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DAMNIT REFA
##Vote Refa
IM NOT LETTING THAT SLIDE NOW
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I voted Sky Paladin and unvoted 15 seconds later to see if I could catch you attempting to quickhammer (which would basically confirm you as scum), but only my unvote post went through. I've always wanted to do that in LYLO and now my opportunity is ruined forever. =(
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DAMNIT REFA
##Vote Refa
IM NOT LETTING THAT SLIDE NOW
UNVOTE NOW
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REFA NO
I DONY BUY IT
BUT FUCK WHATEVER
##unvote
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FUCK REFA YOU KNOW
THATS NOT A TOWN THING TO DO YOU CALL MR OUT FOR THROWING THE GAME BY PROPOSING TO SELFVOTE AND YOU VOTE FOR THE UNCONFIRMED
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WHAT IF I WAS SCUM AND THIS WHOLE THING EXPLODED ON YOUR FACE THAT WOULD BE THE WORST FOR YOU
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RESPOND TO MY ABOVE POSTS NOW REFA RIGHT NOW I HAVE NOOOOOOOO PROBLEM RE-VOTING YOU AND PHASE ENDS IN LIKE 10 HOURS
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At this point, both of the other players are scumreading me (with less than 12 hours in the phase). You quickhammering Town!Sky or me getting lynched still results in my loss, so I figured that it wouldn't hurt to do something that would confirm you as scum (or town if you made a post in the interim that wasn't hammering Sky Paladin) since town's chances of winning are pretty low at this point anyways. It would have been a great play if it had worked.
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So no, it's nowhere near on the same level as you saying that you would self vote (to clarify, this would be a null tell on a phase where town could vig, but it wasn't).
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I have no words
This forum has that stupid post preview thing that comes up before even quick reply posts go through so how could that have worked rven? You took a gamble that even if this site functioned like SF, you could ninja a vote AND unvote in anticipation for me quickhammering?
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I guess its not the saaaaaame but my selfvote back then would've given town ammo towards the vig shot, not risked the game outright
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Like I said. His casing opened my eyes to many things about you that I never really even thought about. After our debacle where we just kinda tore and tunneled into eachother (for the second game in a row), it wrapped up leaving me just confused and I tried to step back and not think about you since I felt like my reads were bias'd. Sky's casing said things about you that quite honestly I don't think I could've come up with, with my disposition towards you at the time.
Yes, I think it's legit, (and not buddying), in that I feel like he's finally paying attention to what I'm doing given the scum flips, rather than trying to case me for associative reads like everybody does in these vanilla-only games. The challenge right now, is for me to determine if what he's said has scum intent behind them (because right now it's a 50/50 even if I like what he says). Analyzing semantics is helpful and working in his favor because his style of posting aka linguistics isn't really different in his sudden elie-is-not-as-scummy-as-refa post.
I mean, look at the entire game following D2. I've been scumread by anybody. Anyone lazy could even scumread me with enough effort, and probably get away with a vote on me (look at what happened with O4rfish and the inconclusiveness with everybody who voted for him).
Regardless of his reads on me (which I'm not going to hyperanalyze because whatever, they're his reads on me, I'm glad he's paying attention to me, even if he were scumreading me which is something?) He's paying more attention to you, which for what it's worth, is something that you have to agree with me on is something that wasn't really done in the grand scope of the game. You just kinda cruised through on town-enough play, and to see you get hyperanalyzed by someone other than me (since we already slaughtered eachother on what D3?) is cool. I feel like it's SkyPaladin's responsibility to do that to you at this point, so it's really difficult to get a tell from it since there's only two people he could analyze right now, and if he ignored you and continued scumreading me, I'd be calling him lazyscum and probably have voted him at the 36 hour mark.
Fair enough on your first reply (I basically felt the same way, so I'm not about to fault you for thinking the same thing), as well as your response to me asking if you thought that Sky Paladin was buddying with you.
I don't see how I've cruised through the game? Like, at all. The only reason I'm making less posts than I usually do is because there has been less content overall (whereas in SF games, there'd be like 50 pages by this point and it'd be the worst). Sky analyzing me is pretty cool though, because it helped me to read him better.
Not really sure what else to say here? Waiting for your reply to my scumread on you.
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I have no words
This forum has that stupid post preview thing that comes up before even quick reply posts go through so how could that have worked rven? You took a gamble that even if this site functioned like SF, you could ninja a vote AND unvote in anticipation for me quickhammering?
-edit-
I guess its not the saaaaaame but my selfvote back then would've given town ammo towards the vig shot, not risked the game outright
That's why I unvoted so soon. You'd basically be voting after my unvote post went through, and incriminating yourself in the process.
But...you're confirmed town FYPOV. You're basically costing town a mislynch for what? That's why I have like, biblical objections towards O4rfish selfvoting. You do not do that as town. Ever.
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Actually, I want to know why me posting ##Unvote (without any reasoning whatsoever) is scummy.
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You're scumreqding me because I'm confusing you with my post, in particular my defenses and read switches. I see why you'd be confused by my play because even I barely understand my reads, but I think you're more town reading sky than you are scumreading me...(you didn't say that though)
Also what's Occam's razor
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I thought you edited a selfvote to Unvote because the warning I saw displayed the Unvote and the I Quit posts back to back, so I thought u didn't see my reply saying I was Here until later on and you were trying to double back
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You're scumreqding me because I'm confusing you with my post, in particular my defenses and read switches. I see why you'd be confused by my play because even I barely understand my reads, but I think you're more town reading sky than you are scumreading me...(you didn't say that though)
Also what's Occam's razor
-edit
I thought you edited a selfvote to Unvote because the warning I saw displayed the Unvote and the I Quit posts back to back, so I thought u didn't see my reply saying I was Here until later on and you were trying to double back
It's a combination of the two, yes. Occam's Razor is basically that the simplest explanation (the one that requires the least hoops to go through) is generally correct (obviously not always true).
Why would I selfvote as scum after making that enormous reads post? That's like throwing all of my effort away for nothing. Also I'm pretty sure editing posts is against the rules. I get where you're coming from now, but it still confuses me at the same time (if that makes any sense) that you came to such a conclusion.
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To clarify, it's less that I'm townreading Sky and more that he makes less sense as scum over you.
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zzz ok no hammer from me so that's why I'm obv town. Reading now.
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You weren't on at the time?
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Last I checked Eli is voting for you.
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He unvoted.
Anyways Elie, I'd like some definitive thoughts from you on me and Sky's alignments. Surely that's not too much to ask considering phase ends in < 10 hours?
Don't think there's much more for me to do at this point besides responding to both of your posts and reevaluating my reads based on them. Finally, I can work on my homework (never thought I'd see the day where I'd say something like that). Should be here all the way until deadline, so that's cool.
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I almost townread you just for that post alone because if you genuinely believed that Elieson still had his vote on me, you'd have voted me as scum...but at the same time, it'd be so easy to WIFOM as scum and aaaaaaaaaaa I don't know what to think anymore.
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I somehow missed the unvote. Never mind.
I'm still putting my wife to bed and I'll read/post properly in a short time.
The main reason I think I'm obv town is because there's no world where scum!Sky would have hit NNR and then pushed for a Refa lynch, when it would have been far easier to hit Refa, push for an Eli lynch. Even with NNR out, there's no reason for me to have pushed for scum!Refa when scum!Eli would have been super easy to sell. Basically, if you want to posit scum!Sky, you have to first explain the night kills of Shadoweh/NNR all of whom were town reading me, over Refa/Serela/Oarfish who weren't town reading me. etc.
So that's why I was kind of interested to see which of you would come to this conclusion first and vote the other. Now that some shots have been fired I'll go back and review what happened.
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Just quickly, this is my second to last check in. I'll be around again in about 7 hours before I head off to Kyoto but then I am afk til phase end.
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Yeah, I already kind of figured that out on my own thanks. Anyways, could you answer my questions BEFORE doing anything else? Just need that and Elieson's final thoughts, and if neither raise any questions that NEED to be addressed, I'll probably lay my vote down then.
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Definitive thoughts?
Comparatively speaking, SkyPaladin has been more "out there" in terms of scumhunting, but his style of scum hunting, until this phase, has been ringing bells with me.with crunch time pressure kicking in, I feel swayed towards him being slightly more likely town because of:
-more aggressive analysis
-more content posts
-more protostyle Objective consideration
Which I weigh now more over you being town because of your:
-more serious play style (when your town meta more often suggests otherwise)
-difficult to interpret behavior due to a hefty display of emotion
That being said, you did make me rethink my position on SkyPaladin with your questioneering since:
SkyPaladin's hunting and results DID flip from his reads on me for 90% of the game, even though he is presenting them as "Elie isn't as bad as I thought"
@Skys recent post
That's easy. When I was the universal scumread from d3-5,
Actually for users other than O4rfish, its not as easy to answer that as I thought unless I say WIFOM BRO but that's worthless so hmm
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Fwiw ringing bells is mainly pointed toward the aggressive nature and confidence/proclamations of reads.
Dead Scum's treatment of refa is less favorable than that of which towards SkyPaladin
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I'm about 60:40 on scum being Refa:SkyPaladin but it was 80:20 yesterday so I'm wondering where the next few hours will place my head
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@Refa
Additionally, you expanded on your BT case, which is also good because I'd expected you to have dropped it as scum by now considering that you were already supporting a lynch on Dr. Rawr. Your final vote of the day was on Elieson, worst associative read ever.
Explain this remark.
Your suggestion of lynching one of NNR/O4rfish so that they can vig the other is horrible considering that you were townreading NNR for being the counterwagon to Dr. Rawr earlier. Why would you ever want a townread shot?
I saw NNR and Oarfish as an unintelligible mess. I wanted one of them out of the game; I ultimately settled on Oarfish.
I also couldn't rule out opposed scum wagons on day 2.
I've already commented on my issues with your Day 6 content, but that being said, I don't really get why Scum!You would intentionally choose to case me over Elieson. I'm a much harder mislynch than Elieson (especially considering that he was townreading me on the previous day), and if you were planning on tunneling on me, killing Elieson over NNR would have served your purposes far better (basically the only way I can see you in the current scenario as scum is if you made a mistake when you sent in your kill). Still would like for you to respond to my issues with your posts today because I did end up ISOing myself (desperate times call for desperate measures) and like...I'm obvious town as fuck? There's so much stuff that you'd never catch me dead saying as scum in years.
Pretty much this is why you should have been voting Eli already. One of you knows *for sure* I'm town. The other one should have had a very easy pick between myself and the other and neither of you voted. I get it.
From Eli's position, she has a harder choice, because she's picking between two of her main scum reads of the game. I can appreciate indecisiveness from this slot as town or scum. From your position, you have essentially conf-town!Sky and universal town-read Eli. Yet you said you wouldn't case Eli until Sky showed you proof that he was conf-town? That's stalling. I appreciate that you then went right in to posting fairly soon after but that logical disconnect is really telling in my opinion.
He basically townread scum on days when they were viable wagons and scumread them when they weren't...I just can't see town playing like that ever.
This however is very accurate and may be the deciding factor.
@Refa what questions did you want answered?
Re Super Busser - We played one game together on SF and I seem to remember you being lynched and flipped scum.
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universal town-read Eli
wow
universal scum-read Eli.
It's 2:15 am and I am not at my sharpest.
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Definitive thoughts?
Comparatively speaking, SkyPaladin has been more "out there" in terms of scumhunting, but his style of scum hunting, until this phase, has been ringing bells with me.with crunch time pressure kicking in, I feel swayed towards him being slightly more likely town because of:
-more aggressive analysis
-more content posts
-more protostyle Objective consideration
Which I weigh now more over you being town because of your:
-more serious play style (when your town meta more often suggests otherwise)
-difficult to interpret behavior due to a hefty display of emotion
What do you mean by ringing bells (as in, town or scum)? I can get why being more aggressive is townie, but the second isn't telling at all (activity is only townie on the earlier days where scum is more inclined to lurk. Uh, not sure what you're getting at with your third point; care to elaborate? Also, what do you make of Sky's reasoning for why he's obvious town (considering I posted the same reasoning myself, it's kind of obvious what my position on it is)?
You were modding my most recent scum game...I wasn't taking the game seriously at all. I don't really get how my town meta suggests otherwise.
Am I really coming across as super emotional? Fuckdammit, sorry about that; it was not my intention to do so ("emotion is a null tell" ~ eclipse).
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@Refa
Explain this remark.
I saw NNR and Oarfish as an unintelligible mess. I wanted one of them out of the game; I ultimately settled on Oarfish.
I also couldn't rule out opposed scum wagons on day 2.
Pretty much this is why you should have been voting Eli already. One of you knows *for sure* I'm town. The other one should have had a very easy pick between myself and the other and neither of you voted. I get it.
From Eli's position, she has a harder choice, because she's picking between two of her main scum reads of the game. I can appreciate indecisiveness from this slot as town or scum. From your position, you have essentially conf-town!Sky and universal town-read Eli. Yet you said you wouldn't case Eli until Sky showed you proof that he was conf-town? That's stalling. I appreciate that you then went right in to posting fairly soon after but that logical disconnect is really telling in my opinion.
This however is very accurate and may be the deciding factor.
@Refa what questions did you want answered?
Re Super Busser - We played one game together on SF and I seem to remember you being lynched and flipped scum.
It's a joke, because Elieson hasn't flipped yet.
Fair enough, I suppose; I had the same thoughts floating around my head myself, so I can see another townie actually acting on them.
What does voting Elieson accomplish? If I'm wrong about my read on you, I lose. If I'm right, well...what's the benefit over hashing it out for a few hours to come to a more definite conclusion.
Not really lol, I assumed that you were going to be on at the time and I'd be waiting 15 minutes tops for reasons that you were obvious town. If I agreed with them, then I wouldn't have had to ISO you at all and it would have saved me a good 1-2 hours of my life that I'll never get back. Since you weren't around to explain your reasoning, I sighed internally and went through with the ISO on you after all.
I was recruitable mafia in that game. My plan was to get recruited on N1 and sell out my entire scumteam the next day. It's not indicative of my typical scum play.
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OK this post. here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1179985.html#msg1179985).
Sky, I'm not famous for super bussing (where did you even get that idea), but if you thought I was, then I'm confused as to how this didn't warrant mention elsewhere in your analysis.
Like I mentioned before, we played together on SF and about the only meta I got from you was super busser. That's all I can remember except the game got cancelled and Junko spam posted nearly 300 pages of complete garbage and nobody vigged her ughhghhghh
I didn't mention it because I hadn't cased you before. I was town reading you for most of the game because you defended me partially on day 1 and I liked that. I thought that scum were more likely to be pushing that wagon.
I'm not really seeing how BT's content clears you. You say that he was constantly pushing you, but all I'm seeing is one or two complaints in your general direction without even a vote to back them up.
Rightyo. 'One or two complaints' does represent roughly 25% of BT's content in the game.
Secondly, I think the interactions of votes near phase end on day 4 bears note. Your preferred pick was Oarfish. You consolidated on to BT (and you also consolidated on to Rawr). You never stayed on any wagon that was lynched, you always consolidated on to one, with the exception of Oarfish.
When NNR pushed the Oarfish option, you and I both went there. But I was the first one to switch back to BT when it looked like time was running out. NNR and you followed.
I want to consider if we both acted with the same essential motive and Eli was uninvolved scum or not.
Why is he town for casing you (he didn't even analyze your later content that day) FYPOV?
Because it's content. Town makes cases. Scum gives reads list and debates semantics.
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Questions I want you to answer:
-Why is Elieson town for casing you (FYPOV)? PEdit That's fine, but earlier you said he was scum for the same content. What changed?
-What do you make of my response to you? Can you understand where I'm coming from? Why or why not?
-Why were you so sure that Serela was scum throughout the game? I'm just struggling to understand this.
-Already answered why you'd lynch NNR/O4rfish, so that's cool.
-While you're explaining past scumreads, why were you actually scumreading Shadoweh? I mean, I'm inclined to treat casing Shadoweh itself as null because both of you cased Shadoweh (so town had to have made that mistake), but by answering this question I'll get some insight into your motivations for doing so.
-What's your scum meta? I wish I could ask a more reliable source here, but fuck Elieson has barely played with you as well.
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I didn't mention it because I hadn't cased you before. I was town reading you for most of the game because you defended me partially on day 1 and I liked that. I thought that scum were more likely to be pushing that wagon.
Rightyo. 'One or two complaints' does represent roughly 25% of BT's content in the game.
Secondly, I think the interactions of votes near phase end on day 4 bears note. Your preferred pick was Oarfish. You consolidated on to BT (and you also consolidated on to Rawr). You never stayed on any wagon that was lynched, you always consolidated on to one, with the exception of Oarfish.
When NNR pushed the Oarfish option, you and I both went there. But I was the first one to switch back to BT when it looked like time was running out. NNR and you followed.
I want to consider if we both acted with the same essential motive and Eli was uninvolved scum or not.
My problem is that he never actually pushed you or laid a vote down on you, just made some offhand comments about how he was totally cool with lynching you without backing up that conviction.
I consolidated on Dr. Rawr because I had to consolidate on him to get a lynch, but the BT consolidation was something that I mentioned being perfectly OK with long before I actually did it (since if he was town, he'd be vigging my numero uno scumread anyways).
We may have had the same motive, but this shouldn't be a point against Elieson; if he was on at deadline, it would be, but I don't recall him being there?
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Hmmm
Of the other potential kills, who suspected refa other than me?
Oarfish and serela said almost nothing about refa. Neko and Shadoweh...I can't recall them having a beef with Refa (he was fairly null/leaning town/only appeared on charts). If SkyPaladin were scum, he could logically have killed people leaving refa alive, assuming that if he were to score a mislynch, it would be pheasible on Refa compared to anybody else that I didn't have much of a read on.
Except Shadoweh is probably the only person other than Refa that id be exprcted to vote for late in the game but hmmmmm. O4rfishs serela kill was just an unpredictable wildcard meaning that made the Shadoweh kill probably matter more than intended
Hmmmm
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This post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18246.msg1176627.html#msg1176627) I'm so tempted just to sheep it but yeah I'm not gonna vote until I get on the train. How much time til phase end? If I have to set my alarm for 7 oclock again ghgghgg
-Why is Elieson town for casing you (FYPOV)? PEdit That's fine, but earlier you said he was scum for the same content. What changed?
The main thing that changed was I had been scum reading Eli/Serela as buddies, or somethign was going on there. I was so sure. I can't explain to you how confident i was that Serela was scum. I thought - and still do!- that I had caught her lying about her rvs vote. But on day 5 it was obvious Serela was town and on day 6 I have to at least consider that Refa is scum, and that means Eli has a chance of being town. I'd probably been conf-bias reading her up until then, almost certainly because she was attacking me all game. So I went to reread it and think "Is this content that town could make?" and then I remembered that town want to make cases and be communicatable, scum want to obfuscate things and not.
Is what I want to say. I'm actually very sleepy and not sure what content you're referring to here.
-What do you make of my response to you? Can you understand where I'm coming from? Why or why not?
I don't know, it's 3 am , and I can't parse walls any more.
I'm underwhelmed with Eli's content this day phase though.
-Why were you so sure that Serela was scum throughout the game? I'm just struggling to understand this.
Because I caught her lying day 1 and she happily contradicted herself at least twice and nobody gives a fuck. That hit my enrage button. I wanted her dead. I needed her dead because she is an anathema to all that I live and stand for. I try for logic. I really do. I have a degree that says at some point, I must have passed some kind of logic course called 'statistical analysis' and I did it well. And I'm really an excellent software debugger if I say so myself, which I just did.
Most of the time people are consistent and follow the three main laws of physics. Serela is none of these things. The rest of you are like well-behaved numbers; numbers yes, that follow rules and fit into formula's and equations and I can press buttons and pull levers and an expected behavior or something close to it will come out. Serela isn't a real number. She's not even a floating point or an inquantifiable constant like pi. She's, just, k^2 = -1. I can't deal with it.
And if I hadn't had her town confirmed on day 5, I might have taken the Oarfish option. But she was confirmed town and so was Oarfish so that ought to be a really interesting graveyard topic for us all to read.
-While you're explaining past scumreads, why were you actually scumreading Shadoweh?
I've been scum with Shadoweh before.
This was not really her scum game so I was null on her for the longest time. Scum!Shadoweh is more passive/reactive. However I saw her flipflop on her Serela read, and I thought Serela was scum, and when Shadoweh picked at Serela, Serela didn't blink. Normally Serela flares up at the slightest hint of provocation. So I thought "Ahah, well if Serela is scum, Shadoweh must be too." And by now I was certain Serela was scum, so it was easy to think that Shadoweh must be too, even the point of partially disregarding her meta.
-What's your scum meta? I wish I could ask a more reliable source here, but fuck Elieson has barely played with you as well.
I have been told by different players that I over use information instead of analysis/tend to intimidate/threaten players.
I also this one time tried to lie my way out of a confirm guilty but had to self hammer when another detective appeared with a guilty on my buddy so we'll never know if I would have pulled it off.
I have also been told that I'm a lot more careless with my vote as scum.
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I think there's a serious danger I may not be able to be here at phase end and may have to drop a vote down now. How long until phase end?
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About 9 hours
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Doesn't phase end in 7 hours?
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No, Elieson is in the right here, my bad. Closer to 9 and a half hours, though.
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OK great. I can sleep on it. I'm up in four hours, then I'll get a window to check the thread while I'm on the train, about six hours out from now.
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I will wait ten minutes for any last minute questions but then I gotta go.
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zzzdarknessszzzz
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Sorry about the late response, my stomach chose pretty much the worst time to rebel. I (literally) feel your pain, Elieson.
The main thing that changed was I had been scum reading Eli/Serela as buddies, or somethign was going on there. I was so sure. I can't explain to you how confident i was that Serela was scum. I thought - and still do!- that I had caught her lying about her rvs vote. But on day 5 it was obvious Serela was town and on day 6 I have to at least consider that Refa is scum, and that means Eli has a chance of being town. I'd probably been conf-bias reading her up until then, almost certainly because she was attacking me all game. So I went to reread it and think "Is this content that town could make?" and then I remembered that town want to make cases and be communicatable, scum want to obfuscate things and not.
Is what I want to say. I'm actually very sleepy and not sure what content you're referring to here.
Oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...that explains your turnaround on Elieson, then (if you were primarily scumreading him because of an associative read with Serela, then I understand why your read on him would drastically change after BT/Serela's flips). Inclined to believe you here because your conviction reads as genuine (your explanation could come from either alignment, but I don't believe that you'd be ~that confident~ that you caught Serela on a scumslip as scum, even after she flipped). Fair enough regarding your turnaround on me, maybe it just read poorly to me at the time because I was expecting an entirely different response. Regardless, you quoted the content I was referring to earlier in your post (wherein you mention that Elieson's read on you was scummy). I can get why you'd want to look at things from a different perspective, but you never addressed the downright bizarre change of opinions here. Would like you to do so when you can.
Because I caught her lying day 1 and she happily contradicted herself at least twice and nobody gives a fuck. That hit my enrage button. I wanted her dead. I needed her dead because she is an anathema to all that I live and stand for. I try for logic. I really do. I have a degree that says at some point, I must have passed some kind of logic course called 'statistical analysis' and I did it well. And I'm really an excellent software debugger if I say so myself, which I just did.
Most of the time people are consistent and follow the three main laws of physics. Serela is none of these things. The rest of you are like well-behaved numbers; numbers yes, that follow rules and fit into formula's and equations and I can press buttons and pull levers and an expected behavior or something close to it will come out. Serela isn't a real number. She's not even a floating point or an inquantifiable constant like pi. She's, just, k^2 = -1. I can't deal with it.
And if I hadn't had her town confirmed on day 5, I might have taken the Oarfish option. But she was confirmed town and so was Oarfish so that ought to be a really interesting graveyard topic for us all to read.
Already explained my thoughts on your Serela read, but I just want to say that this is my favorite post of the whole game. Not game relevant, but I'm genuinely curious as to how you can manage to play with Serela without going insane. I'd assume the graveyard topic is raging about how O4rfish claimed scum just so that they could shoot obvious town, because that's what I'd be doing if I was there myself. Today could have been so much easier without that O4rfish shot (actually, the game could have feasibly ended on Day 5 itself).
I've been scum with Shadoweh before.
This was not really her scum game so I was null on her for the longest time. Scum!Shadoweh is more passive/reactive. However I saw her flipflop on her Serela read, and I thought Serela was scum, and when Shadoweh picked at Serela, Serela didn't blink. Normally Serela flares up at the slightest hint of provocation. So I thought "Ahah, well if Serela is scum, Shadoweh must be too." And by now I was certain Serela was scum, so it was easy to think that Shadoweh must be too, even the point of partially disregarding her meta.
So you were scumreading Shadoweh purely because of an associative read over her own content... but I thought that you were scumreading Elieson/Serela, so what made Shadoweh/Serela more likely? Additionally, something that bothered me (that I totally forgot to actually post like the dunce I am) was when you accused Shadoweh of lurking; what gave you the impression that she was doing so (asking because I felt she was outputting content consistently enough to be considered relatively active)?
I have been told by different players that I over use information instead of analysis/tend to intimidate/threaten players.
I also this one time tried to lie my way out of a confirm guilty but had to self hammer when another detective appeared with a guilty on my buddy so we'll never know if I would have pulled it off.
I have also been told that I'm a lot more careless with my vote as scum.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. You're playing to your scum meta with the former (well, not currently, but on earlier days), but you've been super cautious with your vote so far. If I can take this at face value, then you're more likely to be town. For the record, this was ~kind of~ a reaction test, because I figured as scum all of your meta would point to a single alignment (town if you wanted to play it safe and scum if you wanted to WIFOM hard). As town, you'd have a mixture of both (speaking from my own experience here, but as town I notice how aspects of my play are shockingly similar to my scum meta).
I don't know, it's 3 am , and I can't parse walls any more.
I'm underwhelmed with Eli's content this day phase though.
Fair enough. It'd be cool if you could respond to this (and my other replies to you in this post as well) when you get back on, because this and Elie's pending responses are literally the only reasons that I'm not voting him right now.
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6 and a half hours remaining
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Refa for my sanity's sake, can you repost your questions? I thought I was answering them
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Don't need responses to questions, would like a response from you regarding my read on you. Kind of busy at the moment, activity may be erratic.
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I simply don't have time todo anything.
Re Serela: as much as I can't stand her playstyle this game she was accurate on two scum and went to the grave saying scum!Eli. That put her ahead of me in terms of performance this game.
On one hand I have universal scum read Eli. I think it's pretty dangerous/stupid of me to disregard all those P o e and wagon analysis reads. Versus Refa who hasnt had much pressure all game aside from Eli herself. I can't really see a case from Refa ever except for Eli.
I think town!Refa should have know better than to vote Oarfish on day 5. I also think town!Refa should have been in a great position to quickly evaluate town!Sky/scum!Eli if that was the story, but I am seeing increasingly focus on tangential questions and being more interested in where Sky/Eli want to vote than evaluating his own vote. Yes I am aware Refa literally just said he wants to vote Eli but he doesn't need to wait for us to get back to him on these fairly inconsequential questions.
I feel like Refa is stalling and fawning to some extent and I also don't like it.
Sadly I'm not confident either way.
But this is my vote. I hope it's the right one.
##vote Refa
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Hmmmm
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I didn't think you'd throw the first vote out but then again you said you had time constraints ughhhhh refa get in here
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I'm here.
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Eli is confirmed town? Seriously? Ugh...
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Sky, how are my questions inconsequential? I asked them specifically so I could strengthen my reads on both of your slots. Not that it matters anymore since you're confirmed scum anyways.
##Vote: Sky Paladin
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6 and a half hours remaining
3:20 left. I can wait and I guess refa we're good now?
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I'm just frustrated at myself because I was so wrong.
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What exactly are you waiting for, though? I'd like to prove that I'm town, but if my previous content didn't do that for you, I honestly can't see what will at this point.
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I'll make it simple for you Eli.
I started the phase scum reading you along with everybody else in the game.
We then established that there was no way that scum!Sky would hit NNR, and realistically, not Shadoweh either.
I then isod you both and got scum Refa > scum Eli.
Refa just said he was just about to vote you. Scum me only had to wait and hammer. I've got time constraints I could plausibly camp the thread.
I then established why I believe in scum Refa and voted accordingly.
You know you are town, right? There is literally no reason for me to have pushed or voted Refa if I was scum. The road to mislynch Eli was the simplest and most trouble free right up until you were confirmed town...this validating my actions in this phase.
Meanwhile, Refa had had to flip his read in the dying hours after the phase after just announcing his intent to vote you "once satisfied" but he has been constantly asking questions that do not lead to a result.
After being persecuted all game this should be a sweet hammer for you.
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I'll make it simple for you Eli.
I started the phase scum reading you along with everybody else in the game.
We then established that there was no way that scum!Sky would hit NNR, and realistically, not Shadoweh either.
I then isod you both and got scum Refa > scum Eli.
Refa just said he was just about to vote you. Scum me only had to wait and hammer. I've got time constraints I could plausibly camp the thread.
I then established why I believe in scum Refa and voted accordingly.
You know you are town, right? There is literally no reason for me to have pushed or voted Refa if I was scum. The road to mislynch Eli was the simplest and most trouble free right up until you were confirmed town...this validating my actions in this phase.
Meanwhile, Refa had had to flip his read in the dying hours after the phase after just announcing his intent to vote you "once satisfied" but he has been constantly asking questions that do not lead to a result.
After being persecuted all game this should be a sweet hammer for you.
That's why this current situation makes no sense to me. I'm in utter disbelief here; Elie should be scum. All signs point towards him being so. And yet...he's confirmed town. It baffles me, and I honestly don't know how I'm supposed to defend myself at this point other than saying "I'm town".
The whole reason you voted me was because I didn't hurry up and vote Elieson. Clearly waiting and hammering wouldn't work for you, especially considering that you mentioned you would be gone soon. Don't like how you're insinuating that you were right all along, considering you implied that you would have voted Elieson with me in one of your earlier posts.
If I was deadset on mislynching Elieson, I would have voted him a lot earlier on in the phase and buddied with you instead of continuously pressing you despite me being fairly sure that Elieson was scum.
Don't see how I flipped on my read at all...
Honestly, I wouldn't think too harshly of Elieson if he does go through with hammering me considering my tunnel on him (I basically did the same thing when I was confirmed town in 3P LYLO myself, although it wasn't worth it because I lost). However, being wrong doesn't make me scum.
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You're attempting to shove all of the blame of being wrong onto me ("I then isod you both and got scum Refa > scum Eli." despite the fact that you have not actually addressed my defense in any way and there's no reason you'd be so confident in voting me despite that as town). I'm not going to deny that I was completely wrong about my Elieson scumread, but that doesn't make me scum and you using AtE to get Elieson to vote me is manipulative as fuck (""After being persecuted all game this should be a sweet hammer for you." especially considering you were casing him throughout the game as well).
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Also I'm not going to make a post that solely functions to say "here's why Refa is town" because I believe all of my actions up until this point vindicate me on their own. If you have any specific queries, I'll be happy to oblige, but yeah. Seriously not interested into getting into a dong measuring contest with Sky to determine which of us is really town (spoilers: it's not Sky, my dong is bigge...I mean, something about being town).
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2 hours
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I'm just about at Kyoto so this is probably my las post of the game.
I'm confident that my prior actions/posts this game are consistent and have been well explained. I have no need to argue with Refa since I'm not going to change my vote and I find his obsession with arguing against it (as opposed to trying to establish scum!Sky) is basically scum flailing. Contrast with my calm posting.
I have done my duty and all is well.
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lol
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OK I'm DDing tonight for v something ughhhh
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What do you mean?
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you guys got an hour
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##Requesting Extension
Would rather not lose to scum because of a random lynch of all things.
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No extensions, again y'all had 72 hours.
37 minutes left.
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OK after a lot of thought and responsibility IRL (designated driving for a Friend's sudden 26th bday alcohol filled party", I feel like the kill patterns point more towards Refa support (behaviorally analyzing) except for the SB kill which means little.
That being said, SkyPaladins behavior this phase is unlike that of his throughout the rest of the game. I don't like it
Forgive me
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When you say the kill patterns point towards my support, do you mean that they support me being town or scum?
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19 minutes left.
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20 minutes
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Support you being scum
But
Fuck it refa seems more genuine with his concern about this phase and SkyPaladin seems more...case-present about this phase
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I'm doing it. If I'm wrong refa I am sorry this was really hard for me
##Vote refa
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*sigh*
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Refaquest ends here. He was a Mafia Goon.
Congratulations to the town for winning Volcanic Mafia 2015!
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:D
Good game
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God damnit refa I still love you
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Awwww, thanks. :blush:
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hw postgame
Quicktopics
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/BVF2X8nAkEgZ - Mafia
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/aecEsWgT8jpf - Graveyard
Award Ceremony
Shinori Award for Video Games > Mafia
Dormio
Serela Award for Waffling At Deadline
Mitsuki
Kilgamayan Award for Policy Kills
Vhaltz
Paperblade Award for Expendability
DrRawr
BBM Award for Being On The Receiving End Of The Worst Meta Cases
Bardiche
Bluedoom Award for Worst Mislynch
Zakeri
ActionDan Award for Towniest Quickhammer
SB
Radiant Dragon Award for Rolling Scum On Your Return Game
BT
Baldrick Award for Sour Subs
Shadoweh
Proto Award for Not Actually Playing Mafia
O4rfish
SB Award for Gradual Improvement
Serela
Manix Award for Longest Tunnel
NekoRex
Conqueror Award for Best Almost-Carry
Refa
Mancer Award for Not Understanding Game Mechanics
Sky_Paladin
Roukanken Award for Most T_T
Elieson
Rapier Award for Most Foregone Conclusion
ActionDan
Prims Award for Figuring Out The Game Without Playing Or Reading It
Refa has to be scum no one fucking writes that much in a phone post Lynch All Liars
Overall
Hoo boy.
I felt bad for Elieson a lot this game because twice he had one correct scumread, convinced nobody to vote with him, then convinced himself he was wrong somehow. Elie, you really gotta work on verbalizing yourself; even though you were scumreading BT and Refa at various points your actual cases were pretty vague and you didn't really DO anything with them so it ended up not mattering (although your initial reasons for voting BT over the hammer were bad anyway).
Elie, the connections between Rawr/Refa made sense, I dunno why you gave up on them! Your reasons for BT/Refa NOT totally being scum didn't though! Lurking is scummy, I'm not sure how you could read town intent into the way BT did it. There's no reason Refa and BT wouldn't vote together and in fact it makes more sense if they really wanted O4rfish to die over BT together? Really confused why you would argue Refa was town over that since I'm certain scum have voted together to save themselves in SF games you've played in (or even modded) before. Have a little more confidence, don't over-think things and read a little closer, watching you flip-flop from being right to being mislynch bait all game was heartbreaking. But at least you made the right choice in the end.
Don't understand why O4rfish posted the charts and conspiracy theories despite seemingly being aware nobody would take him seriously. Like, he got town-read for it, but playing mafia conventionally in the first place would've circumvented the whole issue and it's not like his unusual playstyle has exactly gotten him positive results. Same applies to Sky trying to meta the nightkill the way he did on D4; each individual player's kill priorities don't matter because nightkills are not made in a contextless void, nor are they made by one person.
And, of course, everybody else realizes this but: O4rfish's shot was atrocious. 1) you were just the counterwagon to flipped scum, why would you throw your life away like that, come ON dude, 2) nobody had even said anything about Serela except people who thought he was town, why would you not just push a regular case, 3) even if you DIDN'T think Serela hard pushing both scum made him that townie why would you gun for him over Elie and Refa, both of which who had serious connections to flipped scum at that point? By offing yourself, the Literal One And Only Person You Honest To God Knew Was 100% Town, Totally in the process, you were basically setting up town for a LYLO loss. Just, holy shit.
I dunno why anybody seriously considered NNR as scum after Rawr's counterwagon vote on him. I dunno why people pushed Serela so hard after he made the Rawr lynch happen. I dunno why Zak got lynched in general. Even if bussing is a thing that exists you'd think there'd be higher priorities when you guys have a bunch of scummier-looking targets and a DOUBLE DAY. Also, the meta-cases on Bard were lame and what he said about people demanding he behave in a specific or be suspicious otherwise being stupid was on-point.
I thought Serela was fairly reasonable and that you guys are too mean to him. I dunno if he just got better a while ago and I haven't been reading games though. Shadoweh was pretty solid for somebody who subbed in on short notice while busy because I pestered her on Steam, so kudos to her. Sky_Paladin did an excellent job in LYLO and I would probably name him town MVP just because I'm not sure town would have made it had it been anybody else alive D5 in the same position.
As for scum... Refa did great for his first time in a new environment, but had living too long in a vanilla game syndrome and his LYLO play was blatantly wait-and-see. Maf as a whole probably would've done better had Rawr actually put more effort into playing. BT might've been able to stall his lynch had he been more active D3 too - people were giving him way too much of a pass and Shadoweh had the right idea. I guess if there's one big message for town to take from this game it's that tactical lurking is scummy, and also that you shouldn't self-vote as the towniest looking player so you can vengekill the other towniest looking player because that's a fucking terrible idea.
Any other gameplay comments are probably in the graveyard. Hope the open set-up was OK. This is the second time I've hosted it and this time it went much smoother from a mod perspective since it wasn't plagued by flaking townies. I feel like it's more fair than not but that nobody really cares because most players just don't seem to enjoy Mountainous games.
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Still got it.
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Just plagued by flaking scum. Also nice postgame. Sorry I couldn't carry in the end, the last time I was scum in 3P LYLO was Fakeclaim and I immediately voted town and got lynched because I lied about my fakeclaim earlier on. Another issue with my play is that I basically suck at having good interactions with scum as scum unless they're good at not getting themselves cased, like SB.
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Fun fact, that actually was a phone post. I had to transcribe a post from my computer onto my phone because my computer's internet connection wasn't working at the time.
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Shinori Award for Video Games > Mafia
Dormio
It wasn't even video games this time. Well, okay, it was partially video games but there were other real life things I had to do a lot of.
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"Refa is probably going to be sad that I could've had him not be scum though."
You fucker.
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:^)
mafia team from that roll was bt/dan/dormio in case anybody is curious. i feel like rolling alignments before sign-ups finish is awkward, but do it every time anyway because i'm impatient, only to scrap it every time too
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not my best town game, surprised I wasn't lynched for my kind of scummy casing lategame and my terrible reads, but better then the horrible apathy that plauged me before I quit mafia
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tbf being rawr's counterwagon should've made your alignment pretty obvious. not that that stopped people from casing you!
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Oarfish was pretty bad all game though, nothing he posted was convincing in the slightest. I don't feel any worse for having tunneled him as town all game.
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Cool game guys
I would've enjoyed playing it if I had actually had a chance to do it =|
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Whoops.
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It was an interesting read and actually made me want to play mafia again. So, yay, i guess. Props to Celery and Sky.
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LyLo was super intense, I didn't feel like following the game until that point. SkyPal and Elie did super well not to fall for Refa's AtE, I probably wouldn't have been able to do it.
Also sorry for subbing out, I got super frustrated. I hate it when people question everything I do, and the fact that it was only to get a mislynch made me go "fuck this game, I'm out" (note that I wouldn't have done that if I didn't have a replacement ready by then).
Yeah, I was wrong, but you guys should just cut me some slack. ED1 reads won't usually be accurate, and if all you do is pointing out that they're wrong two things are going to happen. 1: I'll spend my time justifying my reads instead of actually scumhunting, which will fill the game with a lot of noise 2: I'll actually gain confidence in reads that weren't that strong by polarization effects and it will be harder for me to reconsider, specially since I'm quite stubborn. Yeah, it actually happened.
Not trying to blame others for being wrong with my cases, lol. Also I'll try to get better when it comes to polarization of my opinions. But please have that in mind, not only for me, but when questioning everyone else's cases. Specially during ED1. It will make things better for town.
I feel like the ideal play for town during D1 would be to point out scummy stuff others have done until deadline gets close and ignore weird/bad stuff, and only argue against other people's cases when they're pushing counterwagons to who you want to lynch.
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As usual a Mafia game that has poisonous elements in it.
Great job, Sky Paladin.
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WP gg no re
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Yeah, this was a fun LYLO to read. Props to uh... like half the game I guess for playing pretty well.
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I'm really sorry for my play this game. My commitment to play as scum has been on the decline ever since I remember it and it's totally inexcusable. I won't pile on the self-loathing but I will say this: Once you've lost the spark to play as scum it's hard to get it back. Looking at the thread for the sole purpose of keeping yourself afloat isn't fun, there always has to be something else there to motivate you. I'm not necessarily talking about the setup, because even if I had a nightly roleblock I don't think it would make the experience any more interesting really. The biggest variable is probably the people you play with. It's complicated.
Right, so, big props to Sky for the LYLO. It's always great when you lynch correctly after looking at everything like that. Also big props to Serela for bricking the right lurkers and Shadoweh because she always thinks I'm scum when I'm scum, how does she do it?
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A big thanks to huh what for running the game. It's my first time experiencing a mountainous setup.
I think Serela was the hero of this game. My first three days were awful and had a part in influencing Oarfish's poor move, too. I was happy that I could redeem myself in LYLO though. I need to get over other people having a different play style to mine, or whatever it is that bugs me.
I think Eli did well to make a good decision also, especially when she was up against her two biggest scum reads.
I had fun and learned more for my next game. Thanks for playing, good game everyone.
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I honestly don't know what I'd do if scum stopped lurking! :V But perhaps they never will. But seriously, I'm usually the main person calling out major lurkscum. And a lot of the time someone I really shove for hard ends up flipping town instead, it's because they lurked so hard it was hard to believe they could actually be town.
The main exception is learning the difference between Dan's town and scum lurk, but after a few failures I've realized that town!Dan will put -some- stuff out and scum!Dan really never seems to do basically anything, ever, until maybe lylo or something similar. But the issue is they're both scummy metas and it seriously shouldn't be hard for scum!Dan to follow his town meta as it's still heavy lurking with almost no content in the posts. ;_;
Also, SkyPal; I'd say the biggest thing is moving past "got'cha!" type scum hunting attempts. I've seen Bard do the same thing in the past where he analyzed the words someone said to the point where theoretically, it technically made their statement a lie, but... in context and with being human involved in the equation it didn't actually make much sense. The scum are lying, sure, but they know what they're posting and it's extremely unlikely they're going to trip all over themselves (even if they're me!), unless perhaps caught in a fakeclaim role-shens lie because that's different and much harder to wiggle out of. B)
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Oi, don't liken me to Sky Pal, Waffles.
MoTK Town needs to learn that lurking is bad for the game health.
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ill lurk as much as i am scum thanks
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I try to lynch lurkscum but I usually get called lazy for it
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oh as scum go right ahead
but when someone is town and they still do it? aaaaaaaaa
cut:Oof, yeah, happens to me sometimes too. But it helps when they actually flip scum. >:T