Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Zero De Knowl on October 06, 2014, 04:50:57 AM

Title: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Zero De Knowl on October 06, 2014, 04:50:57 AM
I have a little theory that Marisa is in fact, a Youkai.

The first thing is that isn't it odd that Marisa had a different eye and hair color when she was with Mima? Normally if something like that happens it's because one goes to human too Youkai.

But I wrote that off as magic and was done with it, didn't even think about the Youkai factor.

Another thing is that Marisa can experience full moon beams without going insane and hallucinating. Alice stated that humans would experience that but Marisa didn't.

I wrote that off as Marisa just being awesome.

Another thing was in one of the Touhou Doujin in where the three fairies started to live in a tree behind the shrine.

Marisa and Reimu where said  tree and one of the fairies was worried that there house would be found, but the others stated that it was impossible that a Human would not be able to see there house.

But Marisa clearly KNEW they where there and Reimu did not.

And in Undefined Fantastic Object, she becomes evasive when Minamitsu Murasa points out that she's human after Marisa expresses interest going to Makai.

Now for the common counter arguments.

The first is that people say that it's just ZUN or point out that Reimu had different hair color as well....I can't deny that.

As for the moon, people say that Sakuya and Reimu where not effected ether. There is a canon link between Eirin and Sakuya stating that Eirin was Surprised to see Sakuya, but only Eirin knows why.

I wonder where they met before?

As for Reimu, she borrows the power from the god of the shrine, so why would she be effected?

No one has yet to have an argument against the fact that Marisa KNEW that the Fairies where there.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: aListers on October 07, 2014, 03:26:35 PM
I don't know. I think that maybe the line between youkai and human are a bit blurrier than Akyuu makes them out to be and that Marisa is quite close to becoming a magician - therefor is a magician in everything but name seeing as she hasn't learned the abandon food spell or whatever it's called. I see this theory being sound but if it were directly true then I'm fairly sure people in Gensokyo would notice eventually. It could just be as she says.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Prime32 on October 07, 2014, 04:02:35 PM
Quote from: aListers on October 07, 2014, 03:26:35 PM
I don't know. I think that maybe the line between youkai and human are a bit blurrier than Akyuu makes them out to be and that Marisa is quite close to becoming a magician - therefor is a magician in everything but name seeing as she hasn't learned the abandon food spell or whatever it's called. I see this theory being sound but if it were directly true then I'm fairly sure people in Gensokyo would notice eventually. It could just be as she says.
All the protagonists are described as "youkai-like humans". Magicians are one of the most human-like kinds of youkai (most youkai are composed entirely of belief, while magicians are basically human cyborgs using chunks of belief instead of machinery).
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Tengukami on October 07, 2014, 04:05:35 PM
I think if theories such as this are going to work, you need something a bit more solid. For example, "Hong Meiling is a dragon" is an example of a bad theory, because everything used as "evidence" of her dragon-ness can easily be attributed to Chinese-ness. Likewise here, everything you've pointed to as evidence of Marisa's youkai-ness can easily be attributed to her magician-ness. Occam's Razor and all that. Being like something is not the same as being that thing.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: CyberAngel on October 07, 2014, 07:22:17 PM
Quote from: Zero De Knowl on October 06, 2014, 04:50:57 AM
No one has yet to have an argument against the fact that Marisa KNEW that the Fairies where there.

Back when the three were living in Forest of Magic, they had to ask for Marisa's help when they couldn't get into their house. It could be that she learned how to tell whether a tree is a home to fairies back then, or something like that. After all, she IS on very friendly terms with them after that.

Otherwise, as was mentioned, Marisa IS one spell away from becoming a youkai (and she is said to have been working on it), but she's perfectly human. Secondary characteristics like that don't have anything to do with being youkai or not. I mean, Alice still eats and sleeps out of sheer force of habit, but she's still a youkai, humanlike or not.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Clarste on October 07, 2014, 10:58:10 PM
IN has a human-youkai meter on the bottom, so it's canon that she's human. BAM, mystery solved. Unless you're also arguing that Alice isn't a youkai. Incidentally Youmu only goes up to half-human on the meter.

More to the point, the "humans resolve incidents" theme seems pretty important to the series (all the recurring playable characters in the shooters are at least partially human), and I think having Marisa be a youkai would undermine that and basically be very boring.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: BB on October 09, 2014, 04:12:44 PM
I think it's very important for Marisa's character that she isn't a youkai. I've written about it over here (http://babybahamut.tumblr.com/post/88127282900/day-6-most-dangerous-touhou) (ignore the narrative bit, it's not very good) but to sum up- Marisa is, all in all, a completely normal human. The others all have certain gifts (shrine maidens have their gods, Youmu is half-ghost, etc) that contribute to their abilities, but Marisa is as human as anyone in the village. It's testament to her absolute dedication and hard work that despite this, she can happily go toe-to-toe with gods, monks, shrine maidens, vampires, immortals, etc and still defeat them. She's a relentlessly hard worker, and she has juuuust enough recklessness to take the silly risks necessary to be the best. Explaining that away by giving her youkai powers would diminish that too much, I think.

A story where she becomes a youkai could be an interesting read if done well, though. Would she give up her humanity for power?
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Clarste on October 09, 2014, 08:01:41 PM
Quote from: BB on October 09, 2014, 04:12:44 PM
A story where she becomes a youkai could be an interesting read if done well, though. Would she give up her humanity for power?

Answer is no, because it's come up like half a dozen times and she always rejects it. No eating hourai liver, no becoming a hermit, etc.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: BlazervaniaX on October 09, 2014, 10:11:59 PM
there is a fanmade story where she tries and does become a youkai... the problem is, it 1) never reached that point and 2) was never finished :V the author made some stories after that event (before giving up on fanmaking) on the same timeline and she is shown to be youkai...
...it' still not canon but i thought you might want to look it up, it' the ONLY fanwork i have ever seen where Marisa does become youkai
...either way, didn't ZUN himself said that she was the most "human" character on the whole series? he argumented something about her being too freaking hard-working, i can't remember :V
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Viva1144 on April 08, 2015, 12:59:00 AM
Marisa express interest in immortality and eternal youth several times in canon work. In Imperishable Night, she said "Although the whole immortality thing is pretty appealing" in extra story (but not the way by eating hourai liver). In Wild and Horned Hermit first chapter, Marisa show highly interest when Kasen talk about life span extension and hopes Kasen will teach her any life extending and immortal techniques. I think this enough to confirm that Marisa is aiming for immortality or at least life extending but may not by turn to youkai.
   
Currently, Marisa still classified as Human (not half or partial) but Akyu comments on possibility that Marisa might become youkai-magician in future (PMiSS) due to the high amount of magic she possesses that it's quite unusual for a human to be able to use magic to this extent.

In my view, Marisa was born as ordinary human no innate talent (like Reimu), no super human power (like Sakuya) or no advantage from half-breed power (like Youmu) but purely normal human. However when time past after start to study magic, she developed to become extraordinary human by her hard-working, research and training. There was too unreasonable to mention in current state she is same as any humans in village She show several trait that ordinary humans not perform including stay in forest of magic that extremely dangerous place for humans (contain highly toxic mushroom spore) even youkai still avoid but she can live and fine, possesses high amount of magic that rare for humans or show strong will power to resist madness inducing of moon.

Marisa is character that beginning as normal human but turned to someone extraordinary and can stand in same level as divine power shrine maiden, powerful youkai, gods or powerful entity not by natural born capacity but by relentlessly hard working and developing herself.

The idea of Marisa turn to youkai is not bad idea. I think it very interest to see character who born as normal human and developed herself to become beyond human entity that very fun story.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: PK on April 08, 2015, 03:34:43 PM
Quote from: Viva1144 on April 08, 2015, 12:59:00 AM
Marisa express interest in immortality and eternal youth several times in canon work. In Imperishable Night, she said "Although the whole immortality thing is pretty appealing" in extra story (but not the way by eating hourai liver). In Wild and Horned Hermit first chapter, Marisa show highly interest when Kasen talk about life span extension and hopes Kasen will teach her any life extending and immortal techniques. I think this enough to confirm that Marisa is aiming for immortality or at least life extending but may not by turn to youkai.
She was not only interested, but actually trying to create an elixir of immortality, and the only known problem with it was that it was "too large for consumption" (PCB profile). It wouldn't be strange if she actually ends up being immortal one day or another without noone expecting it (although her "borrowing 'til death" excuses will be no longer valid :V).
Quote from: Viva1144 on April 08, 2015, 12:59:00 AM
The idea of Marisa turn to youkai is not bad idea. I think it very interest to see character who born as normal human and developed herself to become beyond human entity that very fun story.
Well, depends.
FS 25 kinda blocked this possibility, as village humans are explicitly not allowed to become youkai or Reimu will kill them for good.
Unless Marisa counts as "not from the village" (unlike the jinyou in FS), becoming a youkai would be digging her own grave. This might very well be Marisa's reason to search others ways to become immortal or at least having a longer lifespan without becoming a youkai like Alice.
Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Viva1144 on April 08, 2015, 07:00:23 PM
Quote from: PK on April 08, 2015, 03:34:43 PM
Well, depends.
FS 25 kinda blocked this possibility, as village humans are explicitly not allowed to become youkai or Reimu will kill them for good.
Unless Marisa counts as "not from the village" (unlike the jinyou in FS), becoming a youkai would be digging her own grave. This might very well be Marisa's reason to search others ways to become immortal or at least having a longer lifespan without becoming a youkai like Alice.

I don't think so in this point.


I don't think rule from FS 25 blocked possibility that Marisa turn to youkai.

Reference from reimu conversation
when she killed a human that turns into a youkai she said "In Gensokyo, a village human turning into a youkai is the most grievous sin of all". She use specific word "village human" that strict area of this rule to apply only humans who resident in village but in case of Marisa, she is not "village human" anymore. She cut connection with her family and live in forest of magic for long time if one day she decide to turn herself to youkai-magician this rule not apply to her.

Reimu not mention "any human" just "village human" and I'm sure Reimu not forget the fact that not all humans in Gensokyo are village humans. There are some humans that not count as village humans (not resident of village) : Reimu herself (Hakurei shrine not part of village), Marisa (not resident of village and live in forest of magic), Sakuya (belong to SDM and came from outside world), Sanae (belong to Moriya shrine and came from outside world) and Mokou (live in bamboo forest).

Title: Re: Another Theory on Marisa...Its intresting!
Post by: Helepolis on April 10, 2015, 03:58:28 PM
It would've been really nice if the thread wasn't necrobumped but remade with a reference link to the older one. The thread is few months old after all.  :ohdear: