Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Beyond the Border~ => Sara's Audio-Visual Import-Overflow Retail => Topic started by: Nobu on January 07, 2013, 02:00:23 PM

Title: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Nobu on January 07, 2013, 02:00:23 PM
Sorry for inflaming you guys earlier with my insensitivity. -_-; In an attempted act of penance, I offer you something that you can tease me about.

Spent this morning bawling over the ending of Madoka. I can't help but hate myself a little bit more by the day.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: HakureiSM on January 07, 2013, 02:03:12 PM
Oversensitivity, more like :V
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: trancehime on January 07, 2013, 03:46:59 PM
bawling over the ending of Madoka.

I'm not sure that's something anyone here can really tease you about. If they do then they're being jerks.  :ohdear:

Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Serela on January 07, 2013, 03:52:08 PM
Me and the friend that I made watch Madoka (he ended up marathoning it starting at about 1am while I yelled at him to go to sleep) both cried at some point during the anime, so...

oh yeah, and the other friend I made watch it too :D

LET'S ALL CRY TOGETHER. It's like a pity party!
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Tengukami on January 07, 2013, 04:03:08 PM
Uh, yeah, this is a bit like "confessing" that you cried at the end of Beaches or E.T.

Dude, everyone who watched the series cried at the end of Madoka. Anyone who says they didn't is lying.

I give this Abuse Fuel no stars. You heard me: no stars.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Zirene on January 07, 2013, 04:12:05 PM
I would be worried if you didn't cry at the end of Madoka. That reminds me, my room mate walked into my room during the scene where they are in heaven (for lack of a better term) and pretty much naked. He looked at the screen, looked at me, and had this "wtf man" look on his face and I was like "its not porn, I promise its not porn." He still thinks it was porn...
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Rin Kagamine on January 07, 2013, 04:34:22 PM
I don't really remember crying at the end of Madoka, though that may be because everytime I watch it it's a marathon.

Though I did cry 4 separate times during my first viewing of ef ~a tale of memories~ including catatonic bawling at after the 11th episode.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: theshirn on January 07, 2013, 05:51:06 PM
<Kilga> Let's please leave the last thread in the last thread and not bring it into this thread beyond what's in the OP.
Very well then and sorry!  In that case:
Spent this morning bawling over the ending of Madoka.
(http://i.imgur.com/Zoena.gif)
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: NekoNekoRex on January 07, 2013, 11:12:25 PM
lik dis if u cri evrytim
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Mr_Bob on January 08, 2013, 08:57:56 AM
Actually I'm sorta of in the middle of watching the series, (magical girl nonsense isn't up my alley [unless it's comedy/parody] but everyone seems to give it rave reviews) so I don't know if I'll be saddened (complete with eyes misting) or not. Grave of the Fireflies has been the only thing that has actually made me weep though.  I'll see if I can't accelerate the watching and see what I think.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Bio on January 08, 2013, 10:49:34 AM
It wasn't that bad was it? It was sad yea, but not everyone would have cried, right?
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 08, 2013, 04:56:20 PM
yo errone should read Hanokage's official manga sidestory, Madoka Magica ~the different story~

it's got Kyouko being cute and optimistic, and a brand new special attack of Mami's, and
crushing despair
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: ZekeSulastin on January 08, 2013, 10:06:14 PM
Assuming the spoilered bit isn't a joke, isn't such a thing one of the descriptors of the franchise in general?   :V
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Chaore on January 08, 2013, 10:44:14 PM
I uh may have

i may have not cried during madoka

DOES THIS MEAN I AM A SOULLESS MONSTER ;W;
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Jana on January 08, 2013, 10:49:17 PM
yo errone should read Hanokage's official manga sidestory, Madoka Magica ~the different story~

it's got Kyouko being cute and optimistic, and a brand new special attack of Mami's, and
crushing despair

The third one just got scanlated omgomgomg
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Imosa on January 08, 2013, 11:30:55 PM
I was actually fairly unimpressed by the ending of Madoka. I was a little more impressed when I watched the movie. Ultimately the best part of the entire series was Homura explaining herself. Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not. 
There are just so many bad decisions and things that don't make sense that by the time the ending came around it just didn't seem like much of a resolution. I dunno, does someone wanna help me with this?

Here's a question I thought of this morning (No I don't just think about this sort of thing, I was prompted)
Time is, in no way, reset after Madoka does her thing with, right?
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Nobu on January 09, 2013, 12:02:04 AM
I was actually fairly unimpressed by the ending of Madoka. I was a little more impressed when I watched the movie. Ultimately the best part of the entire series was Homura explaining herself. Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not. 
There are just so many bad decisions and things that don't make sense that by the time the ending came around it just didn't seem like much of a resolution. I dunno, does someone wanna help me with this?

Here's a question I thought of this morning (No I don't just think about this sort of thing, I was prompted)
Time is, in no way, reset after Madoka does her thing with, right?

*Madoka spoilers*

The way that I perceive Madoka, is that when she said 'Kami-sama demo nan demo nai' meant that Madoka didn't even care if she became the entropy that drags the universe into it's inevitable doom. Madoka became entropy herself, a self-sacrifice solely so that the people that become magical girls do not have to cry knowing that their efforts have been all for naught. It is the peace of knowing that there is a saviour out there that has and always will be fighting for you. Madoka became 'hope' and 'entropy' combined. She became the reason why Kyuubey and the like are 'incubators'.

The reason why Puella Magi fight in the world, is because they have a benevolent god that grants their wishes. That's the only difference between space-time before and after it gets reorganized by Madoka's new laws of the universe. Instead of getting a wish granted and then watching reality twist their wish into the exact opposite of what they wanted, Puella Magi disappear because that's simply the payment for creating a net good on the world. They get their wishes granted without having to cry tears of sorrow, because Madoka exists and all Puella Magi have her as their patron saint.

At least, that's the way I interpreted things. The reason why Homura wields a bow and has 'witch' wings at the end of Madoka is because her original wish became granted. She wanted a life where the only thing that mattered is her love for Madoka. Thus, when she thought that all hope was lost and that she couldn't live on, she remembered Madoka and also the promise that they made. The promise, simply being that no one would ever forget Madoka or the good that she tried to inflict upon the world.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: NekoNekoRex on January 09, 2013, 12:51:47 AM
(you should make sure to put a spoiler warning on that, just fyi)

I'm a sucker for sad endings, actually. I've cried to no less then five movies.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Imosa on January 09, 2013, 02:29:57 AM
Theories galore
I've just spent way too much time on this... and I can't spend more time on it.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 09, 2013, 02:44:31 AM
I was actually fairly unimpressed by the ending of Madoka. I was a little more impressed when I watched the movie. Ultimately the best part of the entire series was Homura explaining herself. Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not. 
There are just so many bad decisions and things that don't make sense that by the time the ending came around it just didn't seem like much of a resolution. I dunno, does someone wanna help me with this?

Here's a question I thought of this morning (No I don't just think about this sort of thing, I was prompted)
Time is, in no way, reset after Madoka does her thing with, right?

I mostly agree with you, I was unimpressed with Madoka's character for most of the series just because she was so useless. But upon further consideration, and especially upon reading A Different Story, I've started to come around.

Anime spoilers follow; manga spoilers are marked as such, as vol. 3 of A Different Story just came out.

The other four may be smarter, stronger, more outwardly confident and decisive. That much is true. But all four are also deeply conflicted; they present facades to others or to themselves. Whether out of pride, fear, or whatever other reason, all four retain these delusions until they forget how to live any other way--and that's what ultimately engineers their destruction.
Homura refuses to tell others when she's hurting and when she needs help; she deludes herself into thinking she can handle everything alone. Result-- She alienates everyone else, puts herself through a lot of emotional pain, and plays into QB's hands.
Mami puts on the image of a perfect heroine when really she's just lonely and needy. Result-- She gives Sayaka unrealistic expectations, and she doesn't have Homura's help in the fight against Charlotte, with predictable results. Furthermore, she
almost goes Witch when her bottled-up feelings of abandonment come out. She's also indirectly responsible for Kyouko's death, by getting in a fight with her over a misunderstanding that could've been avoided if the two had been frank about how they feel about each other.
Sayaka wants to be a shining ray of justice like she thinks Mami was. She doesn't realize that ideal is unrealistic, and in fact Mami didn't live up to it either. She doesn't realize it's okay to want to be with Kyosuke. She doesn't realize that heroes have failings too. Result--she blames herself for everything, and succumbs to despair. Her descent is all the sharper in the manga where
she actually neglects to save Hitomi. She changes her mind and comes back to save Madoka and everybody, of course, but she feels horrible about it. She then cuts off her ties with Mami, because for Mami to team up with a failure of a hero is incompatible with Sayaka's image of Mami. Eventually, Sayaka does learn that Mami isn't perfect and just wants a friend--but it's already too late for her.)
Kyouko thinks she's happy just eating and playing and fighting. She doesn't realize until too late that she wants to be friends with Sayaka--and with Mami, in the manga. Result-- a lot of needless fighting, and
in both stories, Kyouko's death fighting Oktavia.

Contrast Madoka. Unlike Mami and Homura, she's not afraid to admit when she's hurting. Unlike Sayaka, she doesn't tie her self-worth into an external, unattainable ideal. Unlike Kyouko, she's always willing and ready to approach others. For these reasons, she makes friends very easily. This is especially so in the manga--
Kyouko avoids Mami for much of the story because she doesn't think her old senpai would ever take her back. It's Madoka who approaches Kyouko and makes the first steps toward bridging the gap.

Of course, it's easy for her to be honest when she doesn't have any skin in the game. She's powerless to affect the horrible things that are happening around her. For much of the show, she doesn't even know what she wants for herself. But, I submit, that's better than having the wrong idea what you want for yourself. She is warm, open, and selfless to her core, and because of that, she's willing to give Homura and Kyouko a chance, she's willing to keep calling out to Sayaka at great personal risk, and she's willing to be friends with the shy, sad new transfer student--which starts the chain of events that lead to the story in the first place.

Magical girls turning into Witches is a powerful metaphor because it's ultimately what's inside the girls--their own emotional blocks, their own excuses for not getting along better with others--that destroys them. No amount of fighting prowess will overcome that. And so in the end, it's Madoka--poor, weak, naive, useless, honest, kind, genuine Madoka--who turns the tide.

also pink hair is cute
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Jana on January 09, 2013, 04:08:43 AM
Homura does an amazing thing, Madoka does not.

(http://i.imgur.com/6Xsda.gif)

Maullar put it in a much better way than I could have, but I'll add that I found Madoka's solution to be a very clever way to turn the system in place on its head.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Imosa on January 09, 2013, 04:46:43 AM
All that sweet character analysis
*warning Madoka spoilers*
I hadn't thought about that, pretty cool. However, that's not why I wasn't impressed with the ending. The characters were fine for the most part. That they couldn't be more honest with themselves did annoy me but only in some situations did I think it was unrealistic. In the end however, the mind does strange things at that age, I've never been a girl, and the stress of the whole "magical girl thing" couldn't have helped so I'll leave my points there aside.
What bothers me is this whole "system" that was established by the Incubators, and Homura's wish. I'll make a few points here.
1) ANY wish?! QB is evidently full of shit from the moment you meet him. If he can grant any wish why doesn't he just ask the person to wish the problem away. Ok, it seems like there is more too it then just getting any wish, potential works it's way into the quality of your wish but this should at least tip people off. Some girl in history must have figured this out and I think Sayaka, Madoka, and Homura, could have figured it out. Maybe this wouldn't evade the plot entirely but it would certainly have eased the characters into the situation rather then have them feel like they'd been outright tricked into a bad deal.
2) Why does Madoka keep getting stronger? I am told it's because the time lines are based around her but how is that? Homura just wanted to go back in time, yes, to save Madoka, but how does that lead to the exponential compounding of power. Animelogic, but I'm not buying it this time. Time travel is a fickle thing. That Homura's mind persists but the rest of her body does not is one thing but that another girl's potential compounds, is just weird. I've never seen that in any interpretation of time travel.
3) Homura is about to louse all hope at the end of the series. A bit of a personal investment here because I like Homura and her perseverance. I thought I remember her mentioning that she's traveled back in time over 1000 times. If all the events take place over the course of a month, that means that Homura has been in this loop for about 83 years. Is that when she just calls it quits? I don't believe that. You don't dedicated 83 years to something and then choose to stop on your 1000th+x failure. However she has a realization that's making her quit, Madoka's sink hole, which brings us to...
4) Homura's problem is solving itself. It was explained to me that if Homura fails and Madoka becomes a magical girl, she either dies trying to kill Walpurgis, or she uses all her power beating Walpurgis and turns into a witch. However, if Madoka just continues getting stronger with each timeline then, won't she at some point be so god mod that she can beat Walpurgis without turning into a witch?
A note to finish up #3, if I'm right this should have occurred to Homura in 83 years. There is no way Homura didn't spend part of that time considering her situation and in 83 years you can do a lot of considering. 

I think that's all I've got right now. I've got some quips with Madoka's wish and it's result, but that's not really nailed down, an idea I had this morning (again, I was prompted), and a few problems with character decisions but I don't have time to mention those.


I found Madoka's solution to be a very clever way to turn the system in place on its head.
The system was working just fine before and after Madoka's wish. She didn't turn it on it's head, she just massaged it so that it didn't offend the most emotional denomination of mankind.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Aba Matindesu! on January 09, 2013, 05:05:02 AM
I really should watch Madoka...

...as soon as I finish Accel World :derp:

lik dis if u cri evrytim
*preemptive like*
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Kaze_Senshi on January 09, 2013, 05:05:36 AM
Dude, everyone who watched the series cried at the end of Madoka. Anyone who says they didn't is lying.

I never cried watching any anime or movie, if you want strong emotions go watch one anime called "Ano hi mita hana no namae wo bokutachi wa mada shiranai". I almost cried watching it, if it had some extra drama with dogs I couldn't resist :P
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: pineyappled on January 09, 2013, 05:38:51 AM
Ano Hana was painfully average.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Nobu on January 09, 2013, 06:54:33 AM
I like Ano Hana.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Tengukami on January 09, 2013, 09:57:52 AM
So, Madoka thread?

Discussing the story always provokes a lively conversation is all, and since it seems that's already started, why not?
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 09, 2013, 04:19:51 PM
the story is a metaphor for basketball
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Desu_Cake on January 09, 2013, 05:20:40 PM
1) ANY wish?! QB is evidently full of shit from the moment you meet him. If he can grant any wish why doesn't he just ask the person to wish the problem away. Ok, it seems like there is more too it then just getting any wish, potential works it's way into the quality of your wish but this should at least tip people off. Some girl in history must have figured this out and I think Sayaka, Madoka, and Homura, could have figured it out. Maybe this wouldn't evade the plot entirely but it would certainly have eased the characters into the situation rather then have them feel like they'd been outright tricked into a bad deal.
Except that it's clearly stated that he can't grant any wish. Judging by how the ending played out, I'd say he actually uses the girl's own power to grant the wish. Or possibly, given that he's a lying liar who lies, it's the girls who grant their own wishes as part of the process of becoming a Puella Magi.
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2) Why does Madoka keep getting stronger? I am told it's because the time lines are based around her but how is that? Homura just wanted to go back in time, yes, to save Madoka, but how does that lead to the exponential compounding of power. Animelogic, but I'm not buying it this time. Time travel is a fickle thing. That Homura's mind persists but the rest of her body does not is one thing but that another girl's potential compounds, is just weird. I've never seen that in any interpretation of time travel.
I always assumed that Homura carries it with her. Since she's so devoted to Madoka, she brings a bit of Madoka with her when she returns. Alternatively, you may have answered this yourself in the fourth question: it's Homura's wish granting itself. Also, Homura's body does persist, otherwise she'd have to re-contract each loop.
Quote
3) Homura is about to louse all hope at the end of the series. A bit of a personal investment here because I like Homura and her perseverance. I thought I remember her mentioning that she's traveled back in time over 1000 times. If all the events take place over the course of a month, that means that Homura has been in this loop for about 83 years. Is that when she just calls it quits? I don't believe that. You don't dedicated 83 years to something and then choose to stop on your 1000th+x failure. However she has a realization that's making her quit, Madoka's sink hole, which brings us to...
We don't get to see most of those 1000 loops. (It'd be a damn long series if we did) There's nothing to say that she wasn't slowly losing hope over time, in fact it's more than likely that she was. It's highly likely that she's been contemplating giving up for a long time, saying to herself "Just one more try". Even in the "current" loop, if events hadn't unfolded as they did, that she would have changed her mind and gone back once again.
Quote
4) Homura's problem is solving itself. It was explained to me that if Homura fails and Madoka becomes a magical girl, she either dies trying to kill Walpurgis, or she uses all her power beating Walpurgis and turns into a witch. However, if Madoka just continues getting stronger with each timeline then, won't she at some point be so god mod that she can beat Walpurgis without turning into a witch?
A note to finish up #3, if I'm right this should have occurred to Homura in 83 years. There is no way Homura didn't spend part of that time considering her situation and in 83 years you can do a lot of considering. 
Madoka is as powerful as she is because of all of the pent-up despair hiding inside her, just waiting to be activated by her becoming a Puella Magi. The more despair a Puella Magi has, the more likely they are to turn into a witch. Therefore, even if she becomes powerful enough to defeat Walpurgisnacht as a Puella Magi, she'll be so full of despair that she can't help but become a witch.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Drake on January 09, 2013, 06:51:38 PM
I don't recall Homura ever saying how many loops she's been through.

IIRC it was explained that the girl's despair is what determines how large their wish can be, and the nature of the wish determines the girl's power, so the reason Madoka in particular gets more powerful is presumably because her despair somehow gets compounded over each timeline and then her wishes become stronger and stronger. I mean her first wish is to revive a cat and so she's pretty weak; her wish in the recent timeline is presumably to be able to defeat Walpurgis and save Homura, which makes her stupidly powerful. If the timelines act like "parallel" universes, Madoka's despair might end up syncing up and accumulating. But it's really just speculation.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Imosa on January 10, 2013, 04:17:50 AM
Except that it's clearly stated that he can't grant any wish. Judging by how the ending played out, I'd say he actually uses the girl's own power to grant the wish. Or possibly, given that he's a lying liar who lies, it's the girls who grant their own wishes as part of the process of becoming a Puella Magi.
You missed my point. What bothers me is that QB said that he can grant any wish, and nobody saw the glaring problem in this deal. There should have been more investigation by someone. Madoka wanted to help people anyway, so why didn't she consider helping QB?

I always assumed that Homura carries it with her. Since she's so devoted to Madoka, she brings a bit of Madoka with her when she returns. Alternatively, you may have answered this yourself in the fourth question: it's Homura's wish granting itself. Also, Homura's body does persist, otherwise she'd have to re-contract each loop.
You're assumption may work for you, but that doesn't fix the problem in the show. You refute the idea in my 4th point so you can't suggest that as an explanation here. If Homura's body persists then wouldn't she age? I'm going to try and look into this 1000 repeats thing but even if it's less, I think she'd be growing a lot at her age. I'm really fine with this though. So her soul remains separate from her body, and her mind persists. That's fine.
We don't get to see most of those 1000 loops. (It'd be a damn long series if we did) There's nothing to say that she wasn't slowly losing hope over time, in fact it's more than likely that she was. It's highly likely that she's been contemplating giving up for a long time, saying to herself "Just one more try". Even in the "current" loop, if events hadn't unfolded as they did, that she would have changed her mind and gone back once again.
If my idea in point 4 is correct and Homura lost hope gradually as you suggest here, then my idea would have dawned on Homura and she wouldn't have lost hope.
Madoka is as powerful as she is because of all of the pent-up despair hiding inside her, just waiting to be activated by her becoming a Puella Magi. The more despair a Puella Magi has, the more likely they are to turn into a witch. Therefore, even if she becomes powerful enough to defeat Walpurgisnacht as a Puella Magi, she'll be so full of despair that she can't help but become a witch.
Alright.

I don't recall Homura ever saying how many loops she's been through.
Well I'm even more sure she says it was countless times. That sounds like a lot. 

IIRC it was explained that the girl's despair is what determines how large their wish can be, and the nature of the wish determines the girl's power, so the reason Madoka in particular gets more powerful is presumably because her despair somehow gets compounded over each timeline and then her wishes become stronger and stronger. I mean her first wish is to revive a cat and so she's pretty weak; her wish in the recent timeline is presumably to be able to defeat Walpurgis and save Homura, which makes her stupidly powerful. If the timelines act like "parallel" universes, Madoka's despair might end up syncing up and accumulating. But it's really just speculation.
That makes sense. I feel a problem might come out of that but I can't think of it right now.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Polaris on January 10, 2013, 04:59:05 AM
As I recall, the potential of a magical girl is determined by the fate she holds?e.g. a girl destined to be a princess has a lot of potential, etc. Madoka was initially an ordinary girl without any special destiny so she was initially a not very strong magical girl, but as Homura kept resetting the timeline specifically to save Madoka, Madoka's destiny compounded and she became stronger with each reset.

Homura's goal is not to stop Walpurgisnacht: it's to change Madoka's fate. All magical girls are destined to die or turn into witches at some point, so Homura is trying to prevent Madoka from contracting at all.
Title: Re: Benign stuff
Post by: Desu_Cake on January 10, 2013, 11:15:54 AM
You missed my point. What bothers me is that QB said that he can grant any wish, and nobody saw the glaring problem in this deal. There should have been more investigation by someone. Madoka wanted to help people anyway, so why didn't she consider helping QB?
Investigation by who? These are schoolgirls we're talking about, they have other things on their minds. Not to mention, Kyubey lies and fudges details so much that they don't actually know what his goals are. And even if someone did ask for a wish he couldn't grant, he probably would have just said that actually he can't do it. he lies, the girls believe him, what's wrong with that?
Quote
You're assumption may work for you, but that doesn't fix the problem in the show. You refute the idea in my 4th point so you can't suggest that as an explanation here.
It all depends how Kyubey interpreted the wish. If "save Madoka" was interpreted as "save Madoka from dying", then technically it was granted the first time she became a witch instead. But since Homura's powers provide the vehicle for the wish, when she kept going, so did it.
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If Homura's body persists then wouldn't she age? I'm going to try and look into this 1000 repeats thing but even if it's less, I think she'd be growing a lot at her age. I'm really fine with this though. So her soul remains separate from her body, and her mind persists. That's fine.
Puella magi are zombies, who says they age.
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If my idea in point 4 is correct and Homura lost hope gradually as you suggest here, then my idea would have dawned on Homura and she wouldn't have lost hope. Alright.
If she's been through that many loops, and there was still no end in sight, I can't see any reason for her not to lose hope.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Pesco on January 10, 2013, 12:31:21 PM
Kyuubey doesn't lie. Details are omitted because the girls don't read the fine print and ask qiestions when they formed the contract. Kyuubey mentioned it more than once that he omitted a detail because the girls never asked about it. Kyuubey follows the very definition of a contractor in Darker than Black, acts only in a way advantageous to himself and ignores all emotion. The contracts are a system, the girls simply didn't know how to game the system.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Desu_Cake on January 10, 2013, 01:06:50 PM
I know. I just simplify "leaves out important information", "makes misleading statements", and "makes use of fallacies in language" to "lies". It's shorter.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Imosa on January 10, 2013, 01:48:34 PM
Investigation by who? These are schoolgirls we're talking about, they have other things on their minds. Not to mention, Kyubey lies and fudges details so much that they don't actually know what his goals are. And even if someone did ask for a wish he couldn't grant, he probably would have just said that actually he can't do it. he lies, the girls believe him, what's wrong with that?
In my original post I tried to stay away from things concerning what these girls could think about, but I'm going to make an exception here. You say they have other things on their minds but they spend plenty of time on this decision. I'm pretty sure Madoka louses sleep, thinking about this.
Kyuubey doesn't lie. Details are omitted because the girls don't read the fine print and ask qiestions when they formed the contract. Kyuubey mentioned it more than once that he omitted a detail because the girls never asked about it. Kyuubey follows the very definition of a contractor in Darker than Black, acts only in a way advantageous to himself and ignores all emotion. The contracts are a system, the girls simply didn't know how to game the system.
Doesn't QB lie to Kyoko in order to make her think she can save Sayaka, causing her to go on a suicide mission, and pushing Madoka toward making a contract. If he can do that, and given just how awesome Madoka is, wouldn't he lie about a lot more?

It all depends how Kyubey interpreted the wish. If "save Madoka" was interpreted as "save Madoka from dying", then technically it was granted the first time she became a witch instead. But since Homura's powers provide the vehicle for the wish, when she kept going, so did it.
I don't think I like all of this wish interpretation business. Homura's wish according to the wiki was "to meet Madoka again, but this time as the one protecting her, not as the one being protected". There doesn't seem to be wiggle room in that for Madoka to become more difficult to protect. I mean, if Madoka wasn't getting more powerful then QB might have even given up on trying to contract her after he got killed the first time, instead focusing on Homura's intrest to stop him.
Puella magi are zombies, who says they age.
Doesn't Kyoko make her contract when she's significantly younger? Also, Mami, perhaps?
If she's been through that many loops, and there was still no end in sight, I can't see any reason for her not to lose hope.
Like I said, it all hinged on the 4th point.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Serela on January 10, 2013, 02:20:49 PM
Quote
Doesn't QB lie to Kyoko in order to make her think she can save Sayaka, causing her to go on a suicide mission, and pushing Madoka toward making a contract.
IIRC, QB says it's simply never been done before. This seems like it'd be pretty true. Incubators don't even fully understand how it works, and with the nature of the system in itself...

Plus in Kazumi Magica
they actually somewhat manage to revert a witch back into a magical girl... KINDA SORTA, with questionable but still kind of workable results?

About the previous discussion on Madoka's character; part of the stuff they said was that after Madoka turned into a magical girl, she matured and become a strong (pseronality-wise), responsible individual. But that since Homura prevents it in the anime, it doesn't happen until the end.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 10, 2013, 05:15:19 PM
About the previous discussion on Madoka's character; part of the stuff they said was that after Madoka turned into a magical girl, she matured and become a strong (pseronality-wise), responsible individual. But that since Homura prevents it in the anime, it doesn't happen until the end.

Even before becoming a magical girl, Madoka shows the frankness and openness I was talking about. This is more clearly shown in A Different Story, where
she defends Sayaka against Kyouko's criticism, and later approaches Kyouko about making up with Mami, and befriends her.
But it's also visible in the anime. All the other Puellas, at some point or another, hide their feelings because they think the other party won't listen, or they're afraid of what the other party will think:
-Mami hides her reasons for becoming a magical girl from Madoka and Sayaka;
-Sayaka hides her pain from Kyosuke and Hitomi;
-Kyouko hides her own feelings from herself, and convinces herself she's happy to play and eat all the time;
-Homura hides her pain from everyone around her, and convinces herself she doesn't need anyone else.

Madoka may be the weak, useless one of the team, but she does what she can, and that's to face the terrible reality around her without hiding behind pretenses and rationalizations. That takes strength of a different sort, and it's what makes her special among the cast; it's what lets her keep calling out to Sayaka/Homura/Kyouko, and it's what makes the other characters so willing to drop everything to protect her.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Imosa on January 10, 2013, 06:29:23 PM
-Mami hides her reasons for becoming a magical girl from Madoka and Sayaka;
I don't remember that. I think Mami was fairly honest, saying she didn't have much of a choice in the matter because she would have died otherwise. I do think she hid something, her lonlyness, which is only realized when Madoka offers to fight with her.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: PX on January 11, 2013, 09:21:54 AM
Quote
Puella magi are zombies, who says they age.

Actually, they're more like Liches instead of zombies. Zombies lack a brain, and simply follow the simple instinct to eat. Liches are beings who transfer their souls from their bodies to other objects, so they continue to live even if their bodies are destroyed, so long as the object their soul is bound to still exists.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: pineyappled on January 11, 2013, 09:26:27 AM
Actually, they're more like Liches instead of zombies. Zombies lack a brain, and simply follow the simple instinct to eat. Liches are beings who transfer their souls from their bodies to other objects, so they continue to live even if their bodies are destroyed, so long as the object their soul is bound to still exists.
So, Voldemort?
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on January 12, 2013, 12:07:08 AM
Kazumi 23, where are you.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: ♛ Apher-Forte on January 14, 2013, 10:14:41 PM
less talking about Madoka in this post.
I like everyone to know I convinced someone living in the next next next town to set up a Chinese-style outdoor altar along with a little shrine for his God-Madoka figurine by GSC.
Worship shall now commence of our ONE TRUE GOD.

[NEO MADOKA ERA ( YEAR 1 AM* After Madoka) ] Important Holidays
- Madoka's Birthday
- Madoka Ascension into Godhood
- The Homuran Chronicles Recitation
- Black Mami Day
- Madoka New Year
- International Kyubey-Stoning Day
- Mourning of Mami Day
- Homura Homu Homu Holiday
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 15, 2013, 02:22:15 AM
less talking about Madoka in this post.
I like everyone to know I convinced someone living in the next next next town to set up a Chinese-style outdoor altar along with a little shrine for his God-Madoka figurine by GSC.
Worship shall now commence of our ONE TRUE GOD.

[NEO MADOKA ERA ( YEAR 1 AM* After Madoka) ] Important Holidays
- Madoka's Birthday
- Madoka Ascension into Godhood
- The Homuran Chronicles Recitation
- Black Mami Day
- Madoka New Year
- International Kyubey-Stoning Day
- Mourning of Mami Day
- Homura Homu Homu Holiday

yo i celebrate (http://maullart.tumblr.com/post/35576125387/i-could-go-for-some-omurice-right-now-couldnt) meduka's birthday (http://maullart.tumblr.com/post/35555275189/it-was-bound-to-happen) (nsfw) every year

also i approve of the homu homu holiday
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: ♛ Apher-Forte on January 15, 2013, 07:14:18 PM
It is basically xmas, but with everyone wearing striped pantsu on their heads for Mass.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: GunnerReisen on January 21, 2013, 03:16:50 AM
This anime hit home with me.

At first I was like "meh, Nanoha clone." When episode three happened, I realized that this was no Nanoha clone.

And then I was introduced to Sayaka. I compared myself to her and there is almost no difference in personality. That's when it hit home for me. This anime is really special to me, considering right now I'm going through a mini-Sayaka moment involving love. So I'm a total fangirl of this anime and it's my weak spot. Sayaka-chan is so cute, Mami-san is so cool!
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 22, 2013, 06:24:20 PM
keep watching, Sayaka is the writer's favorite character don't ya know  :derp:
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: GunnerReisen on January 23, 2013, 12:45:27 AM
It doesn't seem like it, honestly... xD Really doesn't seem like the writers like anyone... cept maybe Homura.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 23, 2013, 04:50:20 AM
To actually contribute, I get where you're coming from. I relate (http://artfulpleadings.tumblr.com/post/21651671754/but-they-would-need-to-reach-a-written-agreement) to the Madoka girls (http://artfulpleadings.tumblr.com/post/33821648789/apparently-ive-been-drawing-womens-suits) more than any grown man ever should. (http://artfulpleadings.tumblr.com/post/38512635665/sadly-theres-no-such-thing-as-magical-ibr)

...well, not really, I just like drawing them. But the anime is really special to me too, and I'll tell you why. See, I remember well the winter Madoka came on. It was the coldest and snowiest winter in a long time (forcing Harvard to declare its first snow day in 25 years), I was halfway done with law school, and I was just starting to make my first Space Jam mashups. I remember that from the very start, Shinbo's direction, Kajiura's score, and Gekidan Inu Curry's freaky Witch/labyrinth designs grabbed my interest--and Urobuchi's writing held it firmly. Without any one of those elements, Madoka would've been lost in the tide of disposable moe shows. But together, combined, they made up a world that drew me in like no other anime I can remember. You wouldn't want to live in the Madoka world, but you do want to see the bizarre horrors and the human stories going on under the near-future, crystalline-perfect cityscapes. Same goes for the characters. I wrote upthread about how all the characters but Madoka maintain certain artifices that divide them against each other and ultimately bring them down. This is realistic human behavior, and it invites the viewer to follow along with the girls, try to learn what makes them tick. Madoka wastes zero screen time; every time a character is on screen, you're learning something important about them, whether through what they say, what they don't say, or their body language.

What's really great though is how even after all the suffering, good--or at least less-bad--wins out in the end. Sayaka, Kyouko, and Madoka/Homura (in the lyrics of Magia) aren't wrong when they liken their experiences to the fairy tales they loved so much as children. Madoka is a fairy tale for adults; it's a Hans Christian Andersen original, bittersweet and possessed of a moral clarity. And like any good fairy tale, it captures the imagination and never quite lets it go.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: GunnerReisen on January 23, 2013, 04:55:10 AM
And don't forget... when it wants to be depressing, dear God, I cry rivers. I still don't get why people hate Sayaka-chan so much though...


And have you read Oriko Magica? I have.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 23, 2013, 05:09:20 AM
Oriko is pretty interesting, but didn't grab me as much because I couldn't relate to the new characters. Yuma lost her relevance to the plot too early, and Kirika was just plain psycho.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on January 23, 2013, 07:18:43 PM
Kazumi Magica is the better manga by far. (Though I do love Yuma. She's adorable.) I would love to see that one adapted in OAV form.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: GunnerReisen on January 23, 2013, 10:51:23 PM
I liked Kirika's design, powers, and weapons. Too bad it was wasted on a derp character. :l And I liked Kazumi because of Juubey. I love Juubey. He's so adorable. <3 /then again I also thought Kyubey was an interesting character so
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 27, 2013, 04:23:24 AM
I drew something for the Homu Homu Holiday

[nsfw]http://maullart.tumblr.com/post/41580824361/priorities-homura-god-i-cant-leave-you-tied-up[/nsfw]
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: ♛ Apher-Forte on January 27, 2013, 02:24:42 PM
I drew something for the Homu Homu Holiday

[nsfw]http://maullart.tumblr.com/post/41580824361/priorities-homura-god-i-cant-leave-you-tied-up[/nsfw]

sweet yes!

also

welp, my God Madoka figure smashed.... into tiny pieces and a broken waist
fuck me. I am cursed.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: GunnerReisen on January 27, 2013, 03:22:24 PM
Okay so I don't know if this is true or anything, but apparently ABC aired the first three episodes of Madoka... then stopped. Because of episode 3.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Serela on January 27, 2013, 03:44:53 PM
It seems true, although it's noteworthy that it's the AUSTRAILIAN broadcasting company.

I say it's true, because the show is on their website. http://www.abc.net.au/abc3/shows/13733.htm (With no further showing dates B) )


HOWEVER, it did say on the thingy that they were only giving fans a "sneak peek". This would explain stopping at ep3.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc3/201301/programs/ZX9129A001D2013-01-06T201855.htm
I don't imagine they would be dumb enough to not know what happens in the show.

Listing it as "childrens" is still weird though.

edit:Also worth noting that as far as I can tell they never showed past episode 1.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on January 27, 2013, 11:00:57 PM
sweet yes!

also

welp, my God Madoka figure smashed.... into tiny pieces and a broken waist
fuck me. I am cursed.

noooooooooooooo ;;

you know what you must do, get some brass pins and super-glue and primer and paints

you can rebuild her, you have the technology
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Serela on January 28, 2013, 03:33:09 AM
Also I'm not sure why I didn't link a theatre capture of the third movie trailer before.

It REALLY doesn't reveal much that we didn't already know (That it continued right from the end of the anime was already known) but it's there! o: There's one part where there's a lot of talking but no subtitle; the subtitle might be on the top side for that part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuRiowDsGa8

You can see "Shizuki's Nightmare" half-cut off at the top at one point. (That's Hitomi's last name) Hitomi is mentioned a few times, actually. She might play a more significant role in this.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on January 28, 2013, 06:46:54 AM
Aaaah. The wiki has the translations of MadoMagi Online Quests 11 and 12 uploaded, just not linked. Had to manipulate the url directly.
So much hype for next quest update aaaaaah
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on February 02, 2013, 05:53:52 AM
this shit cray (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7R-oGnfkiU&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: ♛ Apher-Forte on February 02, 2013, 06:20:07 AM
this shit cray (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7R-oGnfkiU&feature=youtu.be)

WHAT THE FUCK DID I JUST
/me explodes
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on February 02, 2013, 06:36:54 AM
My wish was fulfilled once more
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on February 02, 2013, 10:26:55 PM
I've spent way too much money on this show
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Mr_Bob on February 03, 2013, 09:23:47 AM
I'll see if I can't accelerate the watching and see what I think.
Finished episode 12... how was this sad?  Wasn't it a happy, albeit atypical, ending?  Maybe because I never really invested with any of the characters.  I thought it would have been extremely tragic if
Madoka's wish retroactively made it that every magical girl, through the past and future, never existed as well.  Possibly with the implications that either entropy would kill the universe, or that humans would never advance beyond cave-dwellers
. Though reading the wiki now is making me think it's a bittersweet ending, as the cruelty of being a magical girl still exists, as well as what happens upon expending the last of one's mana; in exchange for a wish of course.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Serela on February 03, 2013, 03:45:41 PM
It was a bittersweet style ending, more on the happy side.

But the sadness more comes from everything leading up to it.

The point where I finally cried was in the Homura flashbacks episode, after the second Walpurgisnacht where Madoka asks Moemura to kill her. OH MY GOD ALL THE FEELS.
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: Quad City QBs on February 09, 2013, 10:52:40 PM
do you like hurting other magical girls
Title: Re: Madoka discussion thread
Post by: ♛ Apher-Forte on February 10, 2013, 12:14:03 PM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lojht0MWoq1qzvtljo1_400.gif

have some 8bit Madoka