Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Rika and Nitori's Garage Experiments => Topic started by: Lishy1 on October 09, 2009, 08:23:46 AM
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Is it true that Zun does not want us using gfx/music from his games in danmakufu, even when just non-profit fangames? As in, all the music, graphics, textures, sfx, and everything?
I remember reading about something like that once. And although I'm usually someone focused on original content, I just want to confirm anyways.
edit:
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8641/1stpost.jpg)
An old screenshot someone took awhile ago of the thread with info. Perhaps a mod could sticky the info?
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If HELEPOLIS, STOP is any indication, then the general guideline is that you should try to make all your own media yourself.
ZUN isn't going to sue you or anything but you lose street cred for lifting music and graphics and stuff. That said, not everyone is an artist/composer and this community at least won't hold it against you for using existing media.
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By "own media yourself", that literally means to make your own media yourself and not to use things like remixes from dBu? Or are we allowed as long as it is non-profit and credit is given?
Sorry for silly questions. I just want to make sure whatever I do won't piss off Zun :V
Also, do these guidelines still count for parodies such as the Koishirape?
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Media includes sound, so yeah they don't like it if you use remixes from doujin groups and stuff like that. Again, nobody's going to stop you, but they don't like it.
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I see. So I assume these standards are all around places like Nicovideo? Eastern standards seem very different than western when it comes to things like this ???
Not that it concerns me personally, but it does indeed make things a little more difficult. Someone here should try and make graphics anyone can use which doesn't apply to those guidelines.
In fact, I would happily volunteer to help with sprite GFX if someone can do cutins and such.
Thanks for answering the questions. Now I'll just pray Onthenet's project doesn't get its ass nuked :V
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I'd say its pure subjectiveness, obviously they've made plenty of exceptions, like that SA phantasm thing. And lots of people've used some form of ZUN music in one form or another.
And it seemingly doesn't apply taking from fan creations; given how prevalent ripping from CtC is.
I'd be a total troll if I started pasting STOP - TOHO FAN POLICE over every Nico video that's ripping something anyhow, so I'll just take it with a grain of salt.
I'll be nice and rule out the "wwww lets troll the baka gaijin" theory
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Basically, in that old thread we conclude that as long as you don't provide a link to download your fanwork if it contained ZUN's stuff, it's apparently okay. So that's why there's no STOP *whoevermadeit* on the phantasms videos and there's no download link either.
By the way, this is only ZUN's stuff we're talking about, if we're ripping things from people like dBu, if anyone's going to be mad, it's going to be the people that made them(dBu for example). So that's a different problem.
This is more of a respect for ZUN issue though in my opinion...
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I see.
So using a bit of content probably isn't so bad then? If I remember, Hollow World of God used a lot of things ripped from Touhou. Specifically stage 4. And it kind of seems the same idea as when you rip sprites from your favorite SNES game.
So I guess maybe it is ok for smaller projects like the Koishimindfuck/rape? Since it specifically needed brofist.
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Fan creation guidelines which are on 2ch and in japanese, most likely.
Nobody in the western community seems to care, so if you want to avoid the problem, just don't post them on nico? I've never seen this happen before ever, anyway, so it's entirely possible that it's a troll of some sort.
More solid information is required here if you ask me, rather than guessing.
EDIT: Although it is the japanese being critically silly. For example, I can't sprite at all, and would never want to try. So that means I can't ever make a Danmakufu game, permanently disbarred, sorry. That's some extremely great logic there. Someone being able to code, and sprite, and draw, and make music, and design Danmaku is pretty rare. Also, if I turned around and said "HEY CAN I HAVE SPRITES" to some artist, I'm pretty sure they would be asking for money in return and there is no way I am going to spend money working on what was a cute fan project.
Rant end.
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Actually, I see a good contradiction in here...
You know this SA Phantasm, They spirited the BackGround, the enemies, the shot data (well, the animated bullets are completely...ugly, too fast animation) exaclty than ZUN, surprising
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Actually, I see a good contradiction in here...
You know this SA Phantasm, They spirited the BackGround, the enemies, the shot data (well, the animated bullets are completely...ugly, too fast animation) exaclty than ZUN, surprising
SA Phantasm has already been mentioned in this thread anyways.
If you look at it that way, every single Touhou replay on nico is guilty of uploading ZUN's stuff anyways. No to mention the MADs, the EoSD Ultra Mode, etc.
So although uploading a video with ZUN's stuff isn't exactly right, providing a download link seems to be why that person goes RAAGGEE. And there was only that one person really going STOP HELEPOLIS anyways...
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Wait, we also can't use Nyagakiya's(the guy who made the Concealed the Conclusion and Talonpain's scripts sprites) sprites? o-o
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Wait, we also can't use Nyagakiya's(the guy who made the Concealed the Conclusion and Talonpain's scripts sprites) sprites? o-o
Even on Nico, people frequently use shot_all since it's a general purpose bullet sheet and if anyone tried to make anything else it would look practically the same anyway. So they don't really care about that.
Otherwise, yes, you can't use anything else from that.
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Actually, I see a good contradiction in here...
You know this SA Phantasm, They spirited the BackGround, the enemies, the shot data (well, the animated bullets are completely...ugly, too fast animation) exaclty than ZUN, surprising
Em...
Well, don't you know that they can make it because they're always correct?
If you look at it that way, every single Touhou replay on nico is guilty of uploading ZUN's stuff anyways. No to mention the MADs, the EoSD Ultra Mode, etc.
Oh no. The people are getting paranoid now...
Also. New thing here:
UFO Sakuya, obviously they are allowed to do that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRZ3xiWDqEA)
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You guys are worse than me if you are trying to poke fun at the japanese by pointing out things like SA Phantasm.
Do you guys know these 'guidelines'? If so, why haven't you given us a translated text for it yet? You can't complain until you know the rules. Does this make me somewhat of a hypocrite, I guess so, but a little bit of common sense could suggest to you why those are allowed.
The entire point of SA Phantasm is to make it look like ZUN's work. That was part of the joke, you know, remember? It's not a 'fangame', it's not a 'fanproject', it's a single phantasm level which is supposed to be a ZUN-like throwback to Mitori. It is a logical and accepted break from any "oh no you can't use no ZUN stuff".
As far as I know, they didn't provide a download link anyway. If they did, can I have it?
The same could be said for Sakuya UFO, and MoF Phantasm. So please stop crying and either find a copy of the guidelines or use some common sense. I don't have the cool japanese know-how and navigational skills to help with that.
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Actually... I think someone dug out the "guidelines" off the DMF site, and translated them, but they got lost in the last Idiot Wipe. I wonder if someone saved them...
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Btw, you can download MoF Phantasm. However, surprise, they removed every bit of MoF data from it, including even the shots.
I also remember those guidelines, but I can't find them.
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If you ask me, that is proof enough then.
"Don't provide download links with ZUN's graphics/music in them."
Simple.
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Yeah, the release of MoF Phantasm should confirm these rules. There's not much more to say about the topic now.
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Sure there is.
Let's start remaking all of touhou's gfx to exploit the hole in the guidelines
This specific thing is not a request per se, but I think the community should try to dedicate time to remaking all the touhou rips.
What I mean by this is to imitate the sprites, but not pixel by pixal. Most people have noticed by now that Zun's sprites are usually blurry. My idea, however, is using the same sprites, but making pixel-art versions of them created by fans which would look much more similar to a CtC sprite than one from Zun, but still be like it was from a rip. Maybe people will frown upon this due to how similar the sprites are, but it doesn't go against the book and I'm sure Zun won't mind as long as we try our best to create new things as well.
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Sure there is.
Let's start remaking all of touhou's gfx to exploit the hole in the guidelines
Then make a new topic about it, as this is no longer about 'clarifying the guidelines'.
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Someone being able to code, and sprite, and draw, and make music, and design Danmaku is pretty rare.
That's only because not many are willing to try, and if they DID try the game ends up being verrryyy low quality (cept for 1 aspect or two).
*cough*easternsummer9 (http://eastgap.net/products/releases/eat-the-bullet/)+eatthebullet (http://eastgap.net/products/releases/easternsummer/)*cough*
in my case, it's with sounds, graphics, and CPU usage that are made of fail
Meh, i lost the translated text for fan creation guidelines a few months ago.
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You people :V I happen to save some information regarding this issue. Here is the thing:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley-Oakland/9951/products/th_dnh_help_v2_data/SecWriting.html
It was translated into this by N-Forza:
- ZUN doesn't recommend usage of his music directly from his games
- Using game data outside touhou devirative works (fangames) is prohibited and you should ask him.
- If you have a permission, write it down clearly.
- Selling is forbidden
- Don't spread the data outside the game
- Forcing usage of data is frowned upon
- Don't mutate the data like visually or with effects
- Don't reduce the quality
- Credit ZUN
However, N-Forza said it was 2004 policy from ZUN. He doesn't knows if things are changed.
Later on a person posted a comment on my niconico video which was a text file who wrote his personal opinion regarding the issue (because I added an author note saying I did not understand the sudden rage. )
TranceHime translated it to the following:
- He is not the person who said STOP HELEPOLIS but wishes to explain.
- Giving download link to ZUN ripped stuff is forbidden and illegal.
- The issue is important because I was using his stuff.
- It is illegal to use ZUN music in your script.
- It is probably for foreigner like me difficult to understand but I should consider it when making more danmakufu scripts
Basically it comes down to this:
Create your own work and nobody will blame you for uploading it.
The end.
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Well that just is a shame. Do we know that is what Zun wants for sure?
Oh well.. How unfortunate for those who need to use rips.
Then again, I did remember seeing Zun say somewhere he is tired of touhou references always in doujinsoft. So I imagine he would try to cut down used content.
Though my memory isn't a reliable source....
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- Giving download link to ZUN ripped stuff is forbidden and illegal.
Drake won't like this one. Not like it changes anything.
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Drake already knows about this. His first post in the danmaku request thread speaks about this.
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Yes.
Honestly I don't care, and neither do other people unless they're simply zombified bastards. If people did care, they would not be releasing tools for people to use to extract data and to compile data. English patches of all sorts would be ostracized and you wouldn't even have people attempting to copy his style. Having the rips available for download is just the same as getting everyone who wants them to go through the same enduring process of extracting it themselves et al, which in itself will usually detract people from their goal: this just saves us all the time and effort. The reason I made the thread in the first place was because I hated how disorganized the Touhou fandom is in regards to new creations and how the data was near unobtainable for anyone, and because I wanted this sort of organization at least somewhere. If the japanese could also have a website with rips and tools (that isn't thtools because it gets really outdated and sucks), that would be great. I can see why ZUN didn't want the data being distributed (back in 2004), this is made obvious by the other rules. But this anxiousness is really plain silly. If people really wanted to, they would just use everything. But seeing as how people already follow the rules to a STOP HELEPOLIS, I don't think this caution is needed. Regardless, I for one am not responsible for how the data is used after it is downloaded, nor do I care, nor should anyone else, nor is it possible to find out how they got the data in the first place.
Q E motherfucking D.
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Not like it changes anything.
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Besides, who cares about piracy and copywrite and all that other illegal stuff on the internet? :V
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I still will remain strong with my own personal argument for using ZUN stuff: Why dishonour Touhou with ugly art ( cough cough RoHL ). I like to make games in touhou beauty like ZUN, and therefor using his bullets fits me best.
My game will be still made where only my Afro boss along with Drunkards Lemuria is a rip and his sfx+bullets. Aside from that I will be generally drawing my own art or making my own sfx.
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What I do is try to draw my own sprites, but if they don't come out good within an hour or so, I use a rip. I'm with Helepolis in that I (and people playing) would rather have a good-looking game with graphics rips than a bad-looking game with everything hand-drawn.
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Dutch people have a saying for this:
"Beter goed gejat dan slecht bedacht"
I'll let you people figure out the translation and meaning :V
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Dutch people have a saying for this:
"Beter goed gejat dan slecht bedacht"
I'll let you people figure out the translation and meaning :V
" More better well pinched than bad bedacht" ???
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Paraphrasing and according to Google search results, "Better a good ripoff than a bad original."
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Paraphrasing and according to Google search results, "Better a good ripoff than a bad original."
I liked my version better :V
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I see.
So using a bit of content probably isn't so bad then? If I remember, Hollow World of God used a lot of things ripped from Touhou. Specifically stage 4. And it kind of seems the same idea as when you rip sprites from your favorite SNES game.
So I guess maybe it is ok for smaller projects like the Koishimindfuck/rape? Since it specifically needed brofist.
I MADE A SET OF MARISA SPRITES. Is it ok? I drew it myself and everything.
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From previous threads on this forum, apparently just drawing it yourself is not enough, it has to look original/different from ZUN's sprites so people will not hate you. Any attempt at making it accurate to his images will cause rage ::)
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From previous threads on this forum, apparently just drawing it yourself is not enough, it has to look original/different from ZUN's sprites so people will not hate you. Any attempt at making it accurate to his images will cause rage ::)
Concealed the Conclusion.
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Concealed the Conclusion.
The CtC sprites actually look quite different from the ZUN ones, not just in the sharpness of the lines or the shading. overall shape, pose, animations, even the colors used are different.
Also, every single god damn character on the north side of the screen has red eyes, even when their in-game portrait does not.
That aside, if you drew it yourself, it shouldn't matter if you duplicated ZUN's style, they're your own sprites. Any rage garnered from whoever for doing so is unwarranted, and should be ignored, IMO.
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The CtC sprites actually look quite different from the ZUN ones, not just in the sharpness of the lines or the shading. overall shape, pose, animations, even the colors used are different.
Also, every single god damn character on the north side of the screen has red eyes, even when their in-game portrait does not.
That aside, if you drew it yourself, it shouldn't matter if you duplicated ZUN's style, they're your own sprites. Any rage garnered from whoever for doing so is unwarranted, and should be ignored, IMO.
Exactly...
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I was more like proving the point that as long it is your own work, wethever reflecting original characters or not, nobody will hold a grudge for that. bennelsey is clueless and obviously hasn't (clearly) read my post on previous page which ZUN said himself.
The reason I mentioned concealed the conclusion was mainly the player character sprites, as they damn look fine and "close to ZUN's original" and yet selfmade.
Some of you people should really READ stuff before hitting the reply button.
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im still missing the point since your reply on the previous page wasnt even about art ripping, also i already replied to that thread
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You are a real idiot, aren't you? People hate you because you despise ZUN work and yet base your work on his. Those were your own words. And so you get burned for those by others. Deal with it.
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imma bring over my self quote here then
was only referring to ZUN dialogue art anyway
do i despise his games? no - im hooked enough to clear phantasm
do i despise his sprites? no - i even based my work on his stuff
do i despise his dialogue images? for most of his older games with a burning passion
do i worship him? as a GOD
of course ill base my work on his good parts
You're the only one doing any burning, and you're not even making sense now.
and to bring the thread back on track: make sure your sprites look veryyyyyyy unique because if you dont and you say you hate ZUN's art you'll get some burning by Helepol
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I don't see the reason why you are bring an attack on your post from General section OVER to Rika's section. It was your necro-post bashing ZUN's work, not mine. Nice try in avoiding it by now bashing his dialogue art. Which is at the end disrespecting his work.
( ps: When you try to be funny, atleast write my name proper. )
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Nope i wasnt bringing an attack over here, i was warning other people of making their sprites look too similar to ZUN's because apparently we're not allowed to follow ANY of his good parts when we say we hate his dialogue art.
(people like you who likes to bash people that likes bashing other people's crappy dialogue art)
un-un-unconfused yet? no? good
Also the lack of 2 letters in your name was due to my attempt at fast typing :P
PS. don't worry, i hate you too ;D
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STOP, HELEPOLIS.jpg
Seriously this isn't really going anywhere
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Nope i wasnt bringing an attack over here, i was warning other people of making their sprites look too similar to ZUN's because apparently we're not allowed to follow ANY of his good parts when we say we hate his dialogue art.
You are seriously an idiot. Unbelieveable. Do you actually read what you are writing? Nobody was bashing anyone for ripping stuff from ZUN or making it similar to ZUN. We were mere discussing it openly why and how.
Wait, I'll make it easier for you: Me and few others were bashing you at General section (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2506.msg153281#msg153281) for saying you only play touhou because of fanart. Get it? This isn't about the community, this is about you.
And this thread was about discussing the usage of ZUN images in general. Like I said: Stop mixing your own stupid problem into this thread as they are totally different. And also stop talking crap about: "warning" people here, as obviously your post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2932.msg155660#msg155660) is reading: "sarcasm and irony" all over.
@Suikama,
it is indeed going nowhere as I am puzzled why this person suddenly brings over his grudges to this thread while the original discussion was different.
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Rika's Garage is a NO DRAMA Zone.
Look, make whatever graphics you can, but if you're not capable of doing so, nobody on this side of the ocean is going to flip out on you. Take it easy.
Thread locked.