Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Ghaleon on August 28, 2011, 08:39:35 AM

Title: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Ghaleon on August 28, 2011, 08:39:35 AM
Just curious what people think of it, so, give us your opinions on it!
Mine are:
Overall: Pleased, haven't checked spellcard practice yet, but that is a portion of how I'm impressed with it. Its GFW-esque system is also a bonus.

Pros:
 Much better than UFO (IMO), requires much less memorization,
Music lineup is average...But it is starting to take a new direction slightly IMO, which I consider a good thing not because Zun's style is bad per say, but because he's new with this newer slightly different style, so I'm assuming it'll improve as he gets more experience, making average improve to better than average in future games.
I think the compositions of the music have better potential for re-arrangements than their base songs, which could result in them becomming much better over time.
I'm not a scoring fan, but I do think this game has the best scoring mechanic in Touhou history (interested in what other scoring fans like sapz and aisha think...)
Difficulty is wonderful, normal (and I assume easy, will try later) seems easier than average.. Hard seems harder than all but ufo/SA..Haven't tried lunatic yet, I imagine it will be like hard in the grand scheme of things, or harder, I'm almost sure it'll be harderererer if you go for score.

cons:
-Extend count seems small... I prefer the danmaku to be harder, and the extends to be generous. This makes a game more challenging without making non-pros unable to enjoy it as much.

-Character lineup didn't impress me. It's like the whole cast is as boring as Murasa IMO (I think she's boring anyway). The final boss looks great though, but I'm not a fan of the ears (I generally hate animal-characters...I don't even know if she is, but those ears...say she is). The extra boss though looks flat out ridiculous IMO, Zombie-reimu has been dethroned! lol >=p..I know she's popular already though, don't flame me *hides*.

-While I like a new direction for music that wasn't a bad example, none of the songs really made me go YEAAAHHH. I think Zombie-girl's themesong could REALLY own with some good metal remixes though.

-Danmaku is (like UFO) not pretty. It's not ugly, it's not boring, but it's not pretty. If you don't like STGs, you wont enjoy watching someone play the game just from the patterns and such of the danmaku. UFO had this too, as did SA to a lesser extent (some were pretty). But yeah, kinda bummed out that Zun didn't fix his recently developed habit.

-The extra boss, to make matters worse, is actually one of the least fun IMO. It's like she has no challenge at all minus confusion of her bullets' hitboxes. When I got to her first spellcard for the first time I thought "well this isn't cool"...got to her 2nd... same deal, 3rd, same deal, 4th (that's the first frog one right? I forget), oh ano..oh..yah!..the first fun spellcard IMO. But yeah, none of them really struck me as original, pretty, or fun =(.

I'm a critic, pay no mind that I have as many (or is it more) cons to pros. zun did a good job IMO, ESPECIALLY since he released so much shit this year to boot. With the new engine change too! Touhou looks like it'll be as exciting in years to come as it has before IMO... I'm just worried about his pretty danmaku thing. That was unfortunately one of Touhou's defining things.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 28, 2011, 08:00:43 PM
Reviews huh? Well, I suppose I can say a few words about the game. I was thinking about making a thread like this anyway, just to ask how people felt about the game.

My first impressions with the trial was somewhat positive. Stage 1 was pretty damn bad. It felt like it took forever to do absolutely nothing and finished it off with a boss that could do absolutely nothing like usual. There was just something about Nazrin and Yamame that made them feel like a lot better bosses than Yuyuko. Maybe perhabs because they could actually throw me off if I wasn't paying attention. Stage 2 and 3 however greatly made up for that. That is to say, not the stages - they sucked alright - but the bosses had some neat attacks that had a bit of challenge to them - nothing extreme but pretty decent anyway.

What I was hoping for here was ZUN treating this like SA and pretty much any other of his games. Stage 4, 5 and 6 being the real meat of the game providing actual difficulty (UFO excepted, that game actually had gameplay in the first three stages). This didn't happen. Instead the difficulty pretty much capped on Yoshika and never at all increased from there. Right after you put the boot to that zombie girls face you enter the next stage that is way too easy for its own good. Stage 4. SA stage 4, UFO Stage 4 - fuck those things. Players are too retarded to dodge so we better dumb things down. I suppose that was ZUN's trail of thought when he made the stage. Just like the first three stages, this is insanely trivial. The only potentially challenging part of the stage can be easily passed by hugging a wall.

This is not going to be a full fledged rant about each individual stage or some shit like that though. Its not really necessary since basically all the stages can be summed up like this. They are too easy. Even at Lunatic difficulty there is nothing difficult about them. Unlike SA and UFO and to a certain extent MoF that had a bit of challenge in its stage design.

However, its not the stage design its all about is it? No. Its about the bosses. It has always been. Are the bosses notable challenges then? Well, surprise! They aren't! They are piss easy. All of them. Their spells, with a few exceptions, are trash and their non-spells are generally even worse. Seiga seriously need some blast processing, Futo seems to be the second coming of Reisen and Miko has only one threatening spellcard. Which isn't her final which is incredibly lame.

Overall the danmaku, save for a few individual cards and non-spells here and there, is completely useless. Which I suppose is intended since you won't be playing any of it anyway if you are going to score thanks to a completely retarded score system. I never liked the SA score system but that's not because it sucks. That's just because it doesn't work like I want it to. I prefer my score systems to be about avoiding death, capping as many cards as possible and grapping points. I like stuff basic. But even so, I can at least appreciate a replay of stuff like SA because it looks impressive, requires a lot of advanced strategy and memorization to pull off. TD however... nope. None of that. Its a thoroughly retarded concept imo. Some people might like it, but I prefer to have to dodge to score points. Just sayin'.

The graphics and gameplay mechanics, except for trance, are good though. But that's par for the course. That's the bare minimum. It doesn't really improve upon its prequels, although it makes my laptop lag thanks to some crappy 3D backgrounds. Nice.

The music. There is some good songs. I like Kyouko's theme, Rigid Paradise, Seiga's theme, Miko's theme and Mamizou's theme. The music is different this time around but i generally like what has been done with it. Stuff like Futo's music however sounds like ZUN gathered the ten most boring people in all of Japan and used their anecdotes about their personal lives as inspiration for the composition. Other than that though, its a pretty good soundtrack imo.

The girls. The most important part. I like their design. Kyouko is cute, Yoshika looks like a god forsaken retard but its appropriate. I like how she falls over in the Stage 4 boss battle unable to get up on her own. Its a cute touch. Seiga is pretty attractive.Tojiko is pretty forgetable. Futo reminds me of Momizi which is a good thing and Miko is also pretty good looking. Of course, none of these can touch upon Mamizou who is just outright hot. I guess its the glasses that does the trick. That was their looks. Now onto a less important aspect about a woman. Their personality.
 :trollface:

I find the characters in this game to be reasonably interesting. Still, I don't know them very well. Their dialogue is all in japanese and since my knowledge of that language is extremely limited I cannot read it. I have read translated bios on the wiki however and I like what i've read so far. This doesn't come as a surprise though. ZUN's writing skills has seen vast improvement from the throw-away garbage of everything before SA.

----------------------------------

In conclusion, the game isn't very good imo. The music, graphics and characters are nice enough but that can simply not save the game when the gameplay is so lacking. The game is boring and its far too easy even on the highest difficulty setting. Its below average at best.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: MTSranger on August 28, 2011, 09:29:05 PM
The game is easy enough that I may actually go 1cc lunatic (I can't for SA/UFO), if I can just stop dying to people like Kyouko.
Despite you guys complaining that it's super easy, I find lunatic hard, although easier than SA and UFO (2 games I have bad memories of).
Stage 4 is, to my relief, not very threatening compared to almost any other game.

The trial version struck me as very error intolerant, with very few extends.
Thankfully extends are easier to get now.

Good:
- No more stupid UFOs to collect
- Difficulty is fine, normal is a bit easy though
- The extra boss is somewhat fun to play with
- I like Miko's cards

Bad:
- Not impressed with Kyouko's and Yoshika's theme
- ^ to a lesser extent, Yuyuko, Stage 2, Seiga
- Danmaku for Kyouko and Yoshika looks meh
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Formless God on August 28, 2011, 10:06:12 PM
Pros:
- Reasonable difficulty. A balls to walls hard STG is not necessarily a good STG.
- Much more liberty in moving around, I don't have to constantly plant myself at the bottom anymore.
- Danmaku design. Not pretty, but fun. Like, Dodonpachi fun.
- Even with SP this didn't turn into another IN. A pleasant surprise.
- Game runs smooth as silk.
- I tend to overrate new music buuuuuut, it's very good.
- The new designs are good. Tojiko's face expression is among the best ZUN's ever done.
- Shattered hopes, bones, etc. Feels satisfying man.

Cons:
- Bit too easy to memorize, so stages just feel like fillers after a while.
- Trance makes most stages "fixed", except for the resource fairies in S3 and the marches in S6.
- May develop bad habits such as flailing around too much or trying to shotgun Eirin's first attack.

They are developed for retards. Even at Lunatic difficulty there is nothing difficult about them.
Whoa calm the fuck down now, you're turning full elitist.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Ghaleon on August 28, 2011, 10:30:36 PM
Yay, I was starting to think the topic was a bust.

I personally don't find the game particularly easy past normal at all, honestly IMO I find hard to be harder than every Touou game but SA and UFO...And it's not because I haven't memorized it yet because fact is, not only is memorization not as important for this game, but it's actually fairly easy to memorize too.

I am surprised people are mentioning track names already, I personally don't know the names of any of the tracks, but the only mentionable ones I can think of are the tracks for stage 4 (or was it 5? one of them..I think 4 more though), stage 3 boss, and stage 6 boss. The rest kinda bore me.
Stage 2 boss is actually my least fave. she just seems very cheap. I mean sometimes I dodge the danmaku without any issues, but you get no warning about when she'll refresh her border thing so some bullet I dodged and suddenly ignore, suddenly turns around and hits my back sometimes.

I can avoid this safely by exaggerating my movement and taking much longer than I should for the spellcard, but that isn't as fun imo.

The appearence of the girls is quite probably the least important feature IMO, mostly because Zun's own art is so damn bad that I can't even judge a character's appearence until after some fanart is done. Sakuya is a great example of a character who looks like WTF by Zun, but is actually pretty comely most of the time.

I hate furry characters, and animal ears/tails/whatever...But Toyo no miko is without a doubt, the best looking drawning I've seen Zun do in a game IMO (damn the animal ears), she has a great BGM too to boot. I really see her being one of my top 10 (5 if you count triple/double ties as 1 instead of 3/2) soon, but I'll have to read the game first, as long as she doesn't have Sanae's personality, I'm sure I'll love her.

As for Zengeku, I wont criticize your opinion, but Formless, Zengeku...I've noticed this behaviour from him for awhile now, he's like...Trying to take Banamatic's spot or something, the glen beck of MoTK or something >=P. Again, I'll respect his opinions, I just don't like the over sensationalist way he presents them. sorry Zen, I don't mean to insult, I actually don't mean to disrespect you, your opinions are valid, but I just think you exaggerate them too much, I'm glad you replied overall though. I wasn't sure if people thought the game was easy past normal, but apparently some do think it is. But are you sure it just doesn't seem easy compared to UFO? UFO is... a thing.

As for scoring, Zen, you are like me, I don't like scoring either, personally. I think skillful dodging should be all that matters for a score. But the fact is most STGs, if not all, do not do this at ALL. the reason why I think the scoring mechanic is the best, is because it requires the least memorization, and the most skill. Killing stuff asap, going near the top (danger) to grab souls, etc isn't always easy. But there is no BS crap like in MoF where you have to know when to NOT kill stuff so that you don't lose faith for 10 seconds straight. Nor do you have to know what color ufos come in advance to maximize them like in UFO, etc. That's why I think it's the best.

I'm very interested what scoring-fans think of the scoring, Zen's opinion matters too, but his reasonings for disliking it are pretty much reasons for disliking scoring in STGs in general IMO, so I really doubt he's a scoring fan.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Xyden on August 28, 2011, 10:42:49 PM
might as well

Pros:
The music is pretty nice chance of style for Zun. It kinda reminds me of SA style of music. I think UFO had a better soundtrack though
A fucking awesome Stage 2,3 and 4 boss and stage. Fun and not too hard or too easy.
The bosses have nice designs
Graphics looks nice and the controls are well polished.
The danmaku in some parts are great and well designed.
Awesome Extra Boss

Cons:
Too fucking easy. My god I beat this on Lunatic in like 4 days while it took me like months for the others. Zun I know you're trying to make things easier for new players but my god a retarded person could beat this on Hard in like 3 hours or less.
Some very very bland danmaku(hint all of Miko attacks)
Scoring system is retarded by Touhou standards.
Miko as a boss. She is by far the most blandest boss fight in the entire series. All of her attacks are shit that any retard could make in like 5 mins. They're un creattive and just dull.  Her last attack is the biggest insult. Seriously what the fuck happen here Zun

Overall kinda disapointed. Its a huge huge step down from UFO which I think is his best game. Everything just feels dumbed down and just underwhelming. The biggest problem with the game is the difficulty. After Stage 3 the game gets slowly easier and dull. 

Maybe 14 will be better i dunno

Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 28, 2011, 10:54:44 PM
Whoa calm the fuck down now, you're turning full elitist.

I didn't mean it literally. What I meant was that the stages feel like they don't take the player seriously at all. Its competition considered. If there are people having trouble with the TD stages, I didn't mean to insult you, I'm just holding the stages up to the standards set by UFO and SA that had a lot more difficult stages than this game. Stages that I didn't manage to find a fixed path through by seeing them two or three times. There aren't enough random elements to them.

But I guess it can be misunderstood so I'll just go edit my review.

Trying to take Banamatic's spot or something, the glen beck of MoTK or something >=P.
No. He doesn't like Touhou. I do. That's a very important difference.

Quote
But are you sure it just doesn't seem easy compared to UFO? UFO is... a thing.

This thing is almost as easy as PCB if you ask me. Exactly how it measures up to PCB and IN, I can't really say though. I don't really see a difference.

Quote
I'm very interested what scoring-fans think of the scoring, Zen's opinion matters too, but his reasonings for disliking it are pretty much reasons for disliking scoring in STGs in general IMO, so I really doubt he's a scoring fan.

I actually enjoy a bit of scoring now and then. The thing is, I don't really have time to memorize all that much so I appreciate when scoring like in MoF. Shmups like DOJ and Ketsui does require a lot beyond standard survival to score though. And they heavily punish bombing and dying. That's how I like it.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Xyden on August 28, 2011, 11:02:17 PM
To be honest the thing that really just annoys the hell out of me(more so than the lol easy difficulty)

Is that godawful final boss

fuck I can't get over how underwhelming that was goddamnit Zun. Byakruen was a fun and beautiful boss fight. What the hell happen?

At least she has a good design and theme.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Ghaleon on August 28, 2011, 11:20:17 PM
Yeah the final boss DOES seem rather easy doesn't she? I haven't seen her yet on hard or lunatic, but on normal she's easier than the stage 3, 4 and 5 bosses imo.
 I tried to 1cc hard twice now and failed pretty bad, only got to stage 5. I'm not a braindead loser either. Hell, people qq'd when 1cc'd my first touhou game so early (in 1 or 2 days IIRC, and that was with little shmup experience). Unless the final boss is still a joke (moreso than all the other bosses on hard/lunatic) I still just don't see how she's THAT easy (and certainly not the game as a whole).

But then again, I don't have a vsync patch, and claim placebo if you will, but I do have some input lag (though I admit not much), just like every other game, maybe that's my problem, dunno.

I think the extra boss is worse though. her danmaku is unoriginal and boring like the final boss', only is more challenging by stupid bullet shape hitboxes+completely randomly changing trajectories alone. Random altering trajectories is fine for a spellcard or two IMO, but when the whole stage relies on it alone completely...bleh. There was one time I croaked to Extra Nue's first spellard..Because one of the bullets surprised me by coming at me straight up from below, wtf is that? I mean it's one thing if the spellcard does it regularly and you accommodate for it, but it's another story when it normally doesn't happen.

This whole post sounds like a bash, I'm still pleased overall though, =p.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 28, 2011, 11:30:02 PM
There was one time I croaked to Extra Nue's first spellard..Because one of the bullets surprised me by coming at me straight up from below, wtf is that? I mean it's one thing if the spellcard does it regularly and you accommodate for it, but it's another story when it normally doesn't happen.

Actually, that spellcard provided me with a fair bit of trouble to time out. For just those reasons. I think the bullets randomly change trajectories pretty regularly in the card but you normally don't get to see it happen too much when simply capturing it.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Xyden on August 28, 2011, 11:50:06 PM
The Extra boss patterns aren't very orginial I admit but I found the boss fight really fun.

Though Nue will always be the best Extra boss to me
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Tengukami on August 29, 2011, 12:00:11 AM
As for Zengeku, I wont criticize your opinion, but Formless, Zengeku...I've noticed this behaviour from him for awhile now, he's like...Trying to take Banamatic's spot or something, the glen beck of MoTK or something >=P. Again, I'll respect his opinions, I just don't like the over sensationalist way he presents them. sorry Zen, I don't mean to insult, I actually don't mean to disrespect you, your opinions are valid, but I just think you exaggerate them too much, I'm glad you replied overall though.

No. He doesn't like Touhou. I do. That's a very important difference. ... Shmups like DOJ and Ketsui does require a lot beyond standard survival to score though. And they heavily punish bombing and dying. That's how I like it.

Yeah, but this isn't the first time you're hearing what Ghaleon is saying, is it? And I can also attest that the people who do directly say something to you are the tip of the iceberg; there's been feedback about posts you've made in the past about the game or the playing skills of others. I think if you keep hearing different people offer this constructive criticism about the way you express yourself, it might be time to rethink things.

I mean, for example: for a while there you had "ZUN, your scoring system is lame" as your personal text. This isn't an outright violation of site guidelines or anything, and taken by itself it's no big deal. But it's kinda trolly, and is part of a general pattern that you might want to reconsider.

Doing all this, not to mention the repeated comparisons between Touhou and Cave, doesn't make things magically OK just because you say, "But I like Touhou!" That's great that you do, and everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions. I think overall you do post in good faith. I don't mean to say anything of this in a scolding manner or whatever, but I do think Ghaleon - among others - has a point.

All I'm saying is, I dunno, maybe consider dialing it back a little? Or at least rethink the presentation of your opinions, as they do matter, too.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Derpface on August 29, 2011, 12:16:38 AM
Yay Review Time!

I like Touhou 13 myself because of its suited difficulty. Having played UFO myself, this game is very pleasing!

In my opinion...

Pros:

Cons:

Overall, I'd say this Touhou isn't as attractive to hardcore older players. But see, for someone like me this is treasure golden-gem (wait whut is that even supposed to mean)
The only reason I could defeat Byakuren was because of Sanae B's OP'd bombs lol.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Aba Matindesu! on August 29, 2011, 12:49:35 AM
Review~! Unya~?

Okay, so, IMO, Ten Desires is basically IN with EXTREME focus on memorization, chaining, and shotgunning. This is a good thing, sort of, since I like my Normal Modes balanced and laid-back... sort of.

Down to specifics, then:

Pros:
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Most of the music in the soundtrack, actually.
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Beautiful BGs
* BASS 2 BASS DESIRE DRIVE
* Cute girl designs. Especially Seiga, Tojiko, Futo and Miko. ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY Seiga. ESPECIALLY x4 Mamizou.
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Easy and Normal fairly laid back, while being balanced by challenging Hard and Lunatic
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Spell Practice and Overdrive.
* DESIRE DRIVE
* Some of the patterns really stuck to me. See: Futo's final.
* I haven't mentioned DESIRE DRIVE yet, have I? Wha-- I have?! Well, I'll say it again, so deal with it. DESIRE. DRIIIIIIIIIIIVE!

Cons:
* Futo's theme was... just plain goofy. I don't know.
* OH GOD THE LAG ;3;
* Most of the bullet patterns were horribly bland. Most.
* Scarce lives. Just because the patterns are bland doesn't mean I don't accidentally derp and forget to deathbomb/trance, and when I derp, well... yeah.
* Laserisa sucks now. She does happen to score high, though.
* Sanae's attack power is LOL EWW, but the spread is cool.
* Reimu's homing is... oh Suwako, no. MoF's homing algorithms were perfect, WTF, ZUN?
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Ghaleon on August 29, 2011, 12:54:58 AM
I don't know song names so I tried desire drive.. stage 4's track. That one is all right, not great imo though. Turns out stage 5's theme is the one I adore >=P.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Alice★f on August 29, 2011, 12:56:13 AM
Keeping this short and simple:

Touhou 13 is an excellent addition to the Touhou lineup of shmups developed by Zun. It's simple learning curve, yet high difficulty, give this game high replay value and a retro arcade feel for those that enjoy fast-paced games.

Ten Desires delivers the goods, but sadly fails to impress on some parts.

The music is excellent, and it is evident that Mr. Ota has been experimenting with various genres of music; from the techno versions of musical themes while activating Trance mode, to the heavy bass of the stage portion of Stage 6. Zun has also preserved most of his previous techniques, namely the Zunpet, which is a synthesized instruments resembling that of trumpets. In Ten Desires, while there is more diversity in Zun's compositions throughout the game, the music doesn't start to pick up until the second half of the game. Prior to Stage 4, most themes are left unmemorable, because they feel too resemblant of songs from previous installations of Touhou. Stage 4's stage theme is fast-paced, matches the rhythm of the game, and it energizes the player. The difficulty also begins to pick up during this stage, and the fast bpm and louder bass make it a fairly intense stage that energizes the player.

Ten Desires contains many new and already-existing characters in the franchise. The player can choose from Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, or Youmu, all of which were characters released in earlier Touhou games, to play as in 10D. Yuyuko returns in Stage 1, but from that point on, all introduced characters are new to the series, with
Houjuu Nue being the later exception in the Extra Stage
. Design-wise, it is difficult to immediately determine whether the characters are memorable or not based on their personality, one reason being because there is not an English translation patch for 10D available at this moment (Translations for individual conversations are posted in raw at touhouwiki.net) and because Zun is also known for leaving much of the characters' personailities to the fandom's imagination.

Touhou 13 also features refined artwork and higher quality portraits of characters than previous releases of the game. When I first played through the game, most of the new characters struck me as plain and boring. There were exceptions however, such as Mamizou and Yoshika, the former being a Tanuki and the latter a Jiang-Shi, respectively. Seiga just stood out to me as another fairy, the one that didn't make it to Fairy Wars, and Toyosatomimi no Miko just didn't live up to my expectations as a Stage 6 boss, design-wise, at least. Most characters tend to grow on the players after some time, however, so I wouldn't be surprised if they become more popular, especially after the English patch is released. Zun's artwork overall has shown more traits of the "cute and mo?" anime style, and his anatomy is noticeably improving with each release. (Hands!)

Ten Desires, like most other Touhou releases, has a game mechanic that sets it apart from the other games. In 10D, the player has a Trance meter at the bottom represented by a Skull and as it fills up, three ghost souls will appear. When the meter is full, the player presses the C button to activate Trance, which is a brief period where the game theme changes and the player can run around the screen, collecting points and collectibles without taking damage. It is a period of invincibility where the player can chance to gain many points, score on bombs and lives. Lives, also known as "Extends," are obtained by collecting red life fragments. Bombs are earned by collecting green fragments. While in Trance mode, the value of these collectibles are multiplied by two, so the player can earn lives more quickly. This game mechanic allows the player to decide when Trance should be used, whether to collect points or to escape a difficult situation.

Spell cards function the same in Ten Desires than any other Windows Touhou game: The player must eliminate all of the card's health without losing a life, bombing, and in the case, using Trance, in order to capture the spell card. Touhou 13 also features Spell Practice, a feature that was also in Touhou 8, Imperishable Night. In this mode, the player can practice individual spell cards to sharpen their skills immediately. In some cases, when a spell card is captured on all four difficulties,
overdrive mode will be unlocked for that card, which is even more difficult than the Lunatic version.

Spell patterns were for the most part, unimpressive. Some of them had clever gimmicks such as Yoshika's spell cards, which heal her if the player does not collect the souls in time, but some of them just felt like boring repeats of patterns shown in earlier games, such as Toyosatomimi's final spell card. The Extra stage felt very much like Subterranean Animism's Extra stage at times, both in the stage portion and the boss portion, especially  Mamizou's nonspells. Personally, most of these cards just felt like they were missing the intensity and the complexity of previous spell cards, and it suddenly felt like I was playing an earlier release of Touhou except with updated sprites and graphics.

Touhou 13 is your typical Touhou release, but with a few added bells and whistles. It offers four characters to choose from, and the added Spell Practice is a very special feature that was anticipated by many players. It offers a new game mechanic that allow players to score many points in a short amount of time, and also save themselves in a situation where they are out of bombs. The spell patterns are the usual what you would expect from a Touhou game, but don't expect anything too flashy. Music sticks out especially well in this release, and Zun's compositions do not fail to impress, but little can be said about the first three stages. Ten Desires is an excellent title to pick up for the returning Touhou shmup player, but it should not be recommended as a first title for someone who is barely beginning to get started with the series.

(Short and Simple, yeah right. This is a quick review, and I know I left out a lot of things, but please bear with me. I only wrote this for this thread. I'll make a better and more complete review later)
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: GuppyForce on August 29, 2011, 03:00:44 AM
Right a review of TD

Ten Desires was the first Touhou game I actually waited for the release and tracked the release news of, due to coming into Touhou only this year. I was definitely excited for its release, and really hoped there would be a difficulty buff for the final three stages, as the first three in the demo were a joke for normal mode. I would say that some parts of the game impressed me, but on overall I was disappointed.

I would say I quite like the cast of Ten Desires, which like most of the Touhou games resulted in me especially liking a few characters that stood out (UFO is an exception, I liked all equally, but none stood out enough). I'd say my favourite character from TD is Seiga, followed by Miko. The backstory is a lot more fleshed out now, which does help, even if it makes them the first real "evil" characters in Touhou (Utsuho is stupid, she doesn't count). It was really nice to see Youmu again, but I find her shot type extremely difficult to use. I'd really like to see previous stage 5 bosses like Reisen, Shou and Orin (especially) to show up though. Sanae has a good shot type, but I never really liked her that much as a character. One of the better things about the game would be the balanced shot types, unlike SA and to an extent MoF.

The gameplay is interesting, but quite pissing at times due to my perfectionist for the first 3 stages. The difficulty however, is unfortunately still as low as ever on normal, maybe made up for due to less extends, but still really low. My biggest complaint however would be the bullet patterns. I really like patterns such as Mountain of Faith and Wind God Hidden in Tree leaves, which look amazing visually. Ten Desires however is quite short of those. In particular Futo's final attack seems like a half-assed attempt to pull of one, and I find the card extremely boring. Seiga's patterns are quite meh on normal mode, and Futo's are terrible in my opinion, except her first spellcard. For Miko, Armillary sphere and Guse Kannon are nice, and so is the final nonspell, but her first three nonspells are boring. Ranks of Twelve Levels and Laser of Seventeen Articles particularly got me since they looked like terrible versions of Earth Light Ray and Shou's first card, and the rainbow is kinda ugly this time. Taoist of the land of the Rising Sun is boring and stupid, while Royal Clan's Chaotic Dance has a nice concept but is boring and easy. Miko's final card is rather boring too, but it's the only one I can't captured for the main game on normal. I think the main problem is the game's addiction to those big circle bullets, which are difficult to create nice patterns with while the small bullets didn't do anything spectacular. The extra stage boss' danmaku is nice though.

The graphics of the game are quite good. Um yeah that's about it.

As for the music, I really liked Seiga's and Mamizou's theme. For me the music in general sorta turned into a more background ambience thing than a main aspect in this game. Miko's theme is kinda boring at the beginning, but it builds up later and is one of the better themes in the game. Unfortunately it still doesn't shine when compared to the other stage 6 boss themes. Rigid paradise, the extra theme and the stage 5 theme are nice too. I don't really see the appeal in stage 4, stage 6 and Futo's theme though.

That is all.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Naut on August 29, 2011, 03:43:29 AM
So, TD.

Sigh.

The game is... Easy. Very easy. Now, this is fine on easy mode, since that is supposed to be the easiest difficulty of the game, I can never complain that it's too easy. So that's fine. Normal and Hard mode I won't complain about either, since I don't play those difficulties and frankly don't care what their difficulty is at all. Lunatic however, is too easy. This is the absolute hardest difficulty of a bullet hell shmup, with games like SA and UFO as it's precedent... And this is what we get? Mediocre danmaku that's easy as piss to dodge, underwhelming stage five and six bosses that are comparable to most Touhou game's stage three and four bosses, and gameplay mechanics that encourage dodging nothing. Trance mode makes you invincible and multiplies the value of all point items and even lives and bombs. There is absolutely no risk associated with it, and not using it means you've lost out on score, lives and more Trances since you can't go over 600 spirit value counter thing stuff whatever it is no matter how much you save your trances. This is not even like PCB's supernatural borders, which I also don't like, but at least you're not doing absolutely nothing while in one. You certainly don't stop dodging just because you're invulnerable for one hit. I mean, fuck, there's practically nothing you can do while Trancing! You sit on top of bosses or sit at the top of the screen and speedkill stuff with absolutely no risk attached to it since you're completely invulnerable for the duration of the Trance. How boring is that? Shit, it's not even pretty to look at. It's just ten seconds of falling asleep, which is bad enough when the game is already easy and boring anyway.

ZUN's logic was probably to give less resources but make the game a bit easier to compensate. So what does this mean? It means the good players are going to get bored after the first few playthroughs since everything is below their level and once some base level of memorization kicks in the game is practically trivialized. But it also makes the game less inviting for beginners since there is less margin for error. You can't recover from random screw-ups because you have less resources to work with. Plus the game isn't giving you any chances to test yourself on harder or more challenging patterns that you'd be more willing to try and get better at if you had the resources to do so. Instread you get to stress about how you have less than three lives for the entire duration of the game and could screw up at any moment on any random pattern, even if it is slightly easier than normal. Can't really speak for players inbetween beginner and above average, could lean either way. Might be good that things are easier because they're comfortable with their precise movements but have difficulty managing fast or large amounts bullets... Or they could find it harder because they can read bullets fine but have difficulty moving exactly where they want to every time, so they could have random screw-ups at any given moment and would prefer having a larger resource cushion and don't mind more difficult bullet patterns. But so far it looks like most people just find the game really easy.

Scoring is fucking stupid. Memorize some a few choice enemy placements, then spend all your time being invulnerable while you Trance and bomb on top of the bosses, completely skipping all the [easy!] dodging the game has to offer. The entirety of the last boss fight is spent invulnerable as you waste all your resources sitting on top of the boss and getting millions (billions even) of points for doing pretty much nothing. Dodging bullets? Silly you, you could've spent that time invulnerable on top of the boss getting over a hundred times the points. How exciting is that.

Spell practice can die. If anything, the whole game needs an Overdrive difficulty instead of just eight spell cards.

Music is alright, I suppose. I spend all my time listening to the music during the game cause I'm sure as hell not doing anything else that requires any thought at the time, so you'd think I'd have a more in depth opinion of it, but I guess since I don't I'd call it "meh" overall. Stage 3 and 4 themes tickle me sometimes.

Characters aren't that grand overall. Seiga is kinda interesting and is probably my favourite from the game. Interestingly enough, Yoshika would probably be my next favourite, convenient that it lines up like that.

I couldn't care less about the story or lore so no comments on that. Actually now that I think of it, I don't even know the story of UFO, heh.

I don't like TD. Sits comfortably below PCB and IN on my "Touhou games arranged in order of how much I like them" list, and I don't play either of those.


stuff

This should be a PM.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Tengukami on August 29, 2011, 03:54:09 AM
I'll take a crack at this, in a relatively condensed manner.

I think the PCs have weaker shot types than usual, starting out. Youmu's slash is a neat little gimmick, and especially good for getting spirits, but not so great against bosses. I suppose the counterbalance to this is that the danmaku isn't very difficult. The overall effect would be kind of weak for me without the chaining aspect.

Full disclosure: I love chaining. I'm a fan of the eXceed series because of it. Ten Desires and eXceed share two elements in common, the first being the chaining. It's common to a lot of games; eXceed3rd uses autocollect, though, while 10D doesn't. I was personally relieved that collection was different than UFO's - you only need to get near the things, not physical touch them. Nor were they careening through moving landmines of danmaku. The payoff is mixed, though, as bombs are plentiful, but lives, not so much. The Trance meter seems to fill up quickly, though, which is the other thing 10D and eXceed3rd have in common (among other games). I like using Trance, and usually save it for more stubborn situations with bosses. The psychological effect of this is I forget to bomb. 

The bosses are a mixed bag. The trial version promised pretty interesting and daring ideas for boss designs, but seeing Seiga and Tojiko had me worried. Then things get great again, until the Extra boss appears. I'm sorry, but the design of this boss looks really haphazard. But in any event, as has been mentioned before, the danmaku against any of them isn't particular hard. And it's pretty enough, but I don't recall any spellscards that made me think "Wow!"

The story, on the other hand, I really enjoyed. I like it best when ZUN draws from ancient history as well as mythology. And he's connecting again to other games in the series, building up interpersonal relationships between older characters and new.

Finally, I do enjoy the music. Yoshika's theme still earworms me.

Overall, I think 10D is a solid game in the series. The art, music and story make the game attractive, while the chaining and Trance make it fun. It's not so strong on danmaku, though, which is a shame. If it had the kind of spellcards that I've enjoyed in Imperishable Night and Mountain of Faith, I think it'd be one of my favorites. This is casual Touhou, pretty much. It's fun and attractive, but you won't be sweating bullets necessarily.

Also:

This should be a PM.

It is unrelated to the OP, but I don't think this is out of line to post in-thread. Like I said, I'm not reprimanding him; it's just friendly advice. I think Zengeku's a good poster.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Jaimers on August 29, 2011, 09:19:43 AM
I was thinking about making a thread like this anyway,

"Anyone else feeling the Ten Desires meh?"  :V

While I'm here I guess I can give some thoughts.

So yeah, I'm not overly exited about this game.

The game is stupid easy, even on the freaking highest difficulty. Touhou is already being ridiculed for being too easy despite fans screaming "TOHOE HARDAST GAEM EVAR" and TD is not helping.
I know ZUN made it easier for the less-experienced players, but if I was one of them I would just feel more insulted than anything else.

Unless you're using the feature of the ultra patch that drastically increases stage progression, a snail is faster paced than TD.
The first three stages are absolute torture because of this as it feels like it lasts forever and nothing interesting ever happens, not to mention that the non-interesting things get copy-pasted over and over.
Because of the difficulty there's hardly any replay value, not even with spellpractice involved. There's just hardly anything interesting worth doing challenges over. Overdrive is a joke.
And then there's Trance, ZUN's idea of a hyper while completely missing the point. Activating a hyper is supposed to make the game HARDER. Not enable a no-bullet mode.

The patterns are pretty lackluster and this is probably because of the scoring system. Why bother? It's not like you're going to have to dodge anything anyway. And he knows his fans will play anything he makes anyway.
Underwhelming final boss. As for the music, I like Yoshika's and Mamizou's themes and all the music in stage 4 and 6. The rest are completely bland and forgettable. Yuyuko's theme on the other hand is so obnoxious it makes my ears hurt.

Can't say anything for the story as I don't give a damn. I still remember installing the English patch for FW and still unintentionally skipping through the dialog without reading it ever. It's not like you're missing out for not reading it.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Arcengal on August 29, 2011, 11:13:44 AM
I like the game a good bit. I don't get why everyone is saying Lunatic mode is easy; it freaking isn't, it's about on par with PCB or MoF Lunatic, I feel that the comparisons are to games in other series which is a tad unfair. I still can't 1cc Mushihimesama Futari on Normal despite having 5 Lunatics under my belt. Judging within the series itself is more appropriate.

The game has less drama I feel. There's less sense of impending doom around the same times that you'd expect, particularly the stage 5 boss. Sakuya -> Youmu -> Reisen -> Sanae -> ORIN -> MOTHER****ING SHOU -> some girl with a boat. And while I like St Miko as a character, her last card is also a deal breaker. The really intense part of the fight is Gauss Cannon and the spell that comes after it, the last card feels like it's a Last Spell from IN.

Music is overall good. Rigid Paradise is as good as it was when the demo came out, Desire Drive is good, all the boss themes are pretty decent. Last boss music isn't as amazing as Cosmic Mind (though what is?) and feels more like a stage 5 boss track.

My biggest problem with the game is the extra stage. The stage portion is boring as all hell, mainly because of the hypers making parts of it autopilot. Also, Nue's second card is harder than Grudge Bow, which just shouldn't be the case and the entire Mamizou fight feels utterly random; even if you know what you're doing, the bird bullets in particular just make your life a living hell and her eighth card is *still* harder than Genetics for me.

I look forward to the English patch so I can appreciate the endings, but for the most part, TD is a good game that made me appreciate how amazing UFO was.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 29, 2011, 11:37:54 AM
Doing all this, not to mention the repeated comparisons between Touhou and Cave, doesn't make things magically OK just because you say, "But I like Touhou!" That's great that you do, and everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions.

Actually, the reason I even mentioned Cave games was because I misinterpreted Ghaleons piece about scoring. I don't feel any particular desire to compare the two to each other. They are both awesome things in their own way.

I like the game a good bit. I don't get why everyone is saying Lunatic mode is easy

Its easy compared to the standards we are accustomed to. UFO Lunatic, SA Lunatic, Cave games and their 2nd loops. Etc.
You say its more appropriate to compare the game's difficulty to the Touhou series alone? Well, okay. its still easy compared to SA and UFO. You say that TD is on par with MoF? I don't think it is. Playing MoF for score require almost flawless dodging of all the bosses attacks and it has one of the hardest Stage 4 bosses around. Not to mention Virtue of Wind God.


Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Xyden on August 29, 2011, 12:13:09 PM
Lunatic in TD is a fucking joke compared to the rest of the games. I don't see how you can say its hard at all.

It took me like forever to do the rest of the games (mainly SA and UFO) on Lunatic

while TD took like 5 days after it came out and it probably would've been less days if it wasn't for school and shit. Really looking back on this game; Its a HUGE step down from UFO its not even funny. Really disappointed in you Zun. 
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Aisha on August 29, 2011, 01:19:33 PM
My opinion on Touhou 13 is derived from a couple of Normal clears and high-end Lunatic replays. It should go without saying that I don't have much experience with the game, but that is because I have zero desire to play it. I don't find it particularly fun, and by this point, I just feel like it doesn't really show me anything that I haven't seen before.

This game's scoring system is my largest gripe about it. The Trance system does not appear to carry a penalty, risk, or cost, which I think is the key mistake. Other games that employ a similar mechanic do things like having you jeopardize all or part of your score, or make the game temporarily or permanently more difficult by increasing the rank. Touhou 13, on the other hand, gives you a more powerful shot and ten seconds of complete invulnerability through which you can check out what's happening on the TV next to you or something. You can also abuse bombs in a similar manner. I also find the proximity system somewhat unpolished: While I don't mind playing at the top of the screen and having to get up close to enemies, I do appreciate not having bullets spawning right on top of me; a dead zone feature similar to that in Battle Garegga and Hellsinker would have been nice to see. Or maybe I just have the wrong approach. Anyway, the combination of both systems has you spending too much time sitting on a boss doing nothing but watching the numbers on the right go up.

Finally, I'm bored of the underlying formula ZUN uses when designing the scoring systems for the mainline games. This is a personal issue, I understand, but it does influence what I think of Touhou 13. Since Touhou 4, I believe, each game has you do something like shoot enemies, graze bullets, or collect items, in order to increase the value of point items, which you must then collect above some point on the screen for maximum value. Some games deviate from this more than others, but these concepts are present in all of them in some capacity. No matter what sort of spin ZUN puts on this formula, it has just become stale for me. I've said it before and I'll say it again--I want to see ZUN make a full mainline Touhou game that doesn't play like a typical Touhou game; just something new and refreshing.

Visually, I like the character art (as usual), presentation, and stage backgrounds. The lightning in stage 5 was a nice touch. The Trance effect is still pretty underwhelming, especially compared to games like Crimzon Clover. The bullet patterns are also a bit disappointing. One of the things Touhou is known for is its beautiful bullet patterns, but in Touhou 13, most of them utilize only one or two colors per pattern, and are highly random in nature. They are vastly overshadowed in my mind by those in RefRain ~prism memories~, which is another game that was released at C80.

As for the soundtrack, I like all of it. Nothing really stands out in particular, but it's just solid overall.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: かけふみ on August 29, 2011, 02:25:49 PM
Note: Hope this does not turn into a flame war

Yes, TD is clearly easier than the recent games that have been released, but there seems to be the idea that Easy ==> Bad.

Actually I see TD as a pretty nice bridge of difficulty (for Lunatic) between MoF and UFO/SA (though there is still quite the gap between TD and UFO/SA to be filled another day). As such some people can work their skill level upwards with a nice gradient.

For those who have been waiting for so long and have been disappointed by the difficulty, keep in mind there are also players who are very happy about the difficulty as it suits them pretty nicely. (maybe Im one of them since I dont actually do scoreruns, though I will stick to UFO and SA for difficulty)

On another note, the only relevance of the characters and storylines to me is the historical and mythological trivia that comes with it, so it doesnt bother me at all.
I like the music though.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 29, 2011, 02:34:20 PM
For those who have been waiting for so long and have been disappointed by the difficulty, keep in mind there are also players who are very happy about the difficulty as it suits them pretty nicely.

Yeah. Perhabs those people could just play Hard mode? Seems like a much better solution than to dumb down all the content leaving all the skilled players out.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Thanuris on August 29, 2011, 02:44:23 PM
if you aren't skilled enough why would you play on lunatic on the first place?

only things that i will say about the game are that miko has the most disappointing last spell on the whole saga and that the patterns design is way too simple
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: wailofthebanshee on August 29, 2011, 03:04:52 PM
He's catered to you "cave 2nd loop no moving ndnb erryday" players already, it's time he made a game that is more suited for players who don't play shooters for a living again like in IN.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: ふねん1 on August 29, 2011, 03:10:09 PM
I'll have to make this short since I don't have much time.

Pros
- Characters are interesting, especially with the extra historical references ZUN added to the later girls.
- Music is good as always. It's not exactly overtaking SA or GFW in quality, but the songs are still pretty fun.
- While the danmaku isn't especially hard, that also means that there are little to no attacks I would consider BS. That makes actually learning stuff enjoyable enough that I don't completely ignore any of the stages, like I've found myself doing for some earlier games. The level of difficulty in any danmaku game will always be best served to people of certain skills - people need to start somewhere after all. Because someone out there will find things like TD Lunatic tough to clear anyway, I don't think it's fair to hate on the lack of difficulty too much.

Cons
- The Trance system. After thinking about it, the way it was implemented really isn't sitting well with me either. Didn't Nereid or someone propose making the Trances behave more like DDP's hypers? I would honestly like to see a patch that makes that happen, perhaps including the standard rank increases to something Ultra-like in the process. :V
- Scoring overall. This isn't a complete "con" for me, since I kinda like the chaining mechanic during the stages. I had been hoping in the time leading up to release that the scoring system would mandate spreading out bomb/Trance usage over bosses so you actually need to dodge a fair amount of stuff. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case at all. Even someone like Reimu, whose bomb and Trance are significantly weaker than, say, Marisa's, can bomb and Trance almost every boss attack in the game with a bit of finessing. Any difficulty in scoring comes more from remembering what to do where, and not psyching yourself into screwing it up.

So overall, while it's a fun game and always a welcome addition to the Touhou series, I think there was still a lot left to be desired (bad joke, I know, but I can't think of any other way to say it).
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 29, 2011, 03:49:09 PM
it's time he made a game that is more suited for players who don't play shooters for a living again like in IN.

Can you explain to me why it has to be one or the other? Take SA for example. Lunatic players can have fun with some challenging danmaku. If you aren't good enough for that, then its no problem. You can just pick a lower difficulty. I remember when I had a hard time clearing SA. On Normal. Its a long time ago but I still remember it. The game was fun then. I didn't need to be a Lunatic to appreciate the game. Today, I'm a lunatic player and I still appreciate SA for being awesome.

TD. Not so much. It might be awesome for those of you who are less skilled. That's okay. However, people like me will be very disappointed because we can't really get anything out of it.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Arcengal on August 29, 2011, 04:17:59 PM
Play Ultra?
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Naut on August 29, 2011, 04:22:39 PM
Yes we should totally rely on third party mods and patches to make up for ZUN's shortcomings, right?

Lunatic being easy is a bad thing. If you're looking for easier difficulty, that what Easy, Normal and Hard mode are for. Play them.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 29, 2011, 04:26:09 PM
Lunatic being easy is a bad thing. If you're looking for easier difficulty, that what Easy, Normal and Hard mode are for. Play them.

Emphasized for truth.  ;)

Also. The Ultra patches doesn't really have the best design ever.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 29, 2011, 04:42:49 PM
IN Ultra seems pretty fair, on most of the stuff. Unless the guy changed it from when I last played it.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 29, 2011, 05:24:50 PM
I haven't tried that one. Those I have tried however seems to be somewhat hit or miss. The idea is that it needs to be challenging but it everything also needs to be possible to do without dying or bombing. The Ultra patches for StB, SA and MoF doesn't really seem to do this.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Barrakketh on August 29, 2011, 07:21:27 PM
This game's scoring system is my largest gripe about it.
This is my biggest problem with a lot of the series, particularly as it relates to bombs (and usually involves grazing while invulnerable).

Bomb spam, suiciding for more bombs, then spamming some more bombs to trivialize attacks (because all the bullets make for good grazing/whatever mechanic(s) are in place to boost item value) is one of the most retarded design decisions I've seen.  If it was a one-off thing it wouldn't be so bad, but ZUN seems content to keep it around.

I'd like to see him freeze the point value while you're invulnerable in every new game, at least for the bombs.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Ghaleon on August 29, 2011, 08:01:19 PM
Again, I've only played a hard a couple times, but I didn't find it particularly easy. Yes it's easier than SA and UFO..But I wouldn't say it's significantly easier than any of the other Touhou games. The people saying the game is too easy, they keep mentioning UFO and SA.. Those games' aren't Touhou's average, not even close to it. They are the absolute most difficult in the series. So unless it's just me, unless 10D really is easy for the series as a whole (and I don't think it is), I dare say that people are complaining that Zun isn't making it harder at t he expense of newer people, despite their claims that they are taking away from the vets.

That being said, I thought the scoring mechanic would be considered good. But like I said I don't score myself, but people bring interesting points. Scoring is, for the most part, determined about when you trance, and there is no challenge to it. Have trance ready for this part, press the 10 second IWIN button, and pick your nose for 10 seconds. I was seeing the game as potentially good (For touhou) at scoring because of how souls linger near the top of the screen and are there for a limited time. It would encourage aggressive or close quarters play, which is more challenging, but not outright game-breaking punishing like MoF's system where you can play like an ace, and then lose  your entire chance of getting a highscore simply because you forgot to NOT kill 3 fairies right away.  But in the grand scheme of things, I suppose all those efforts are just too trivial to matter compared to your X10 trance mode invincibility modes.

There is one thing that does bother me with the difficulty in this game though, and it was mentioned already. One of Touhou's main good points IMO is that the series as a whole isn't actually THAT much easier than harder non-touhou shmups danmaku-wise. It's just easier because the player often gets 9 lives or whatever as opposed to 3-5. Having more lives by itself isn't what I consider great, but having challenging danmaku, with more lives, so that everyone can enjoy it all and not just the super pros, is great. 10D on the other hand, does have easier danmaku (even I agree there) but compensates (IMO) by giving the player less extends. Which, is just a silly decision IMO. It makes the game as a whole feel less intense, but prevents the very noobs (people who can't 1cc easy or whatever) from enjoying all of it anyways because now they have less lives to chew thru.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 29, 2011, 09:53:05 PM
Again, I've only played a hard a couple times, but I didn't find it particularly easy. Yes it's easier than SA and UFO..But I wouldn't say it's significantly easier than any of the other Touhou games. The people saying the game is too easy, they keep mentioning UFO and SA.. Those games' aren't Touhou's average, not even close to it. They are the absolute most difficult in the series.

Touhou's average has no relevance. I want my stuff to be as difficult as SA at least. If it isn't, then its boring. Period. MoF is excused because its scoring makes it awesome. Plus, it has Aya and VoWG.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: AJS on August 29, 2011, 10:13:37 PM
Alright, so here are some of my thoughts on this game.

Pros:
- Yuyuko's, Yoshika's, Seiga's, Miko's, and Mamizou's themes (The first two and Miko's took a while to grow on me, but I feel in love with the rest almost immediately), ahh yes, and the themes for Stages 4, 5, and 6
- Game's a considerable challenge for me on Hard, which is good, cuz I wouldn't want this game to be too easy (hey don't make fun of me, Lunatic players, I'm still not that good yet :derp:)
- Spirit mechanic is interesting for collecting extra lives and bombs, to me at least
- Mamizou....much fun, and crazy character design xD

Cons:
- The Futo and Miko battles were largely disappointing for me.  I expected a rape-tacular Stage 5 boss, as always (i.e. EFFING SHOU AND EFFING RIN), and a final battle at least on par with the Byakuren battle, but the danmaku didn't quite deliver.  Miko's spell cards are all too easy for the most part, and can be bombed through somewhat easily (that, combined with the fact that it's extremely easy to get tons of bombs in this game, can make Miko a cakewalk...well, more of one than she already is...if you abused bombs/trance).  What's really quite disappointing was Miko's final spell card, which just doesn't cut it as a game-ending spell card (compared to, say, Scarlet Gensokyo, Hourai Jewel, Resurrection Butterfly, Divine Virtue of Wind God, for instance).
- The Extra Stage itself (not counting the boss battle) was also fairly disappointing, as I had made it through on my very first attempt to meet Mamizou
- Overdrives don't add much to the game--not NEARLY as much as the Last Words from Imperishable Night.

Overall Impression: Still a pretty decent game.  Not the best game, by far, but I think it was worth the wait, and I can't wait to see where the fandom goes with this game as far as theme remixes and fanart/doujin comics.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Lawence Codye on August 29, 2011, 11:48:41 PM
Okay, I will try to do this I guess...

Touhou 13 Ten Desires

Music : Liked just about all of it alot, the Stage 3 Boss theme still gets stuck in my head every once in a while, the Stage 6 Boss & Extra Stage themes along with it's Boss theme are notable favorites of mine.

Scoring : Only thing I like about it is that it makes getting extends & more so then that, bombs easier to get then before which is needed though not in such a manner, it's still better then only getting them for the reasons 1 would in SA or by extent UFO.  ZUN needs to really put more time into the scoring system in his games as they don't seem to have the right satisfaction ratio among hardcore players & "the other" players as I didn't even like it as it destroys death bombing & I mean seriously, just no, it's not even fun for me to do & I am 1 of the crowd previously stated as "the other" players.  Nothing else worth mentioning here so...we're done, we're done.

Playable Characters : This is from a perspective that is not referring to the story as I don't speak Japanese.  It seems this time around that there are even more characters around that have weak shot types when focused then in even UFO as both Marisa & Sanae are so very annoying to use because of this depending on their Power level that is & I don't even know when or in what way that is which is frustrating when trying to get through the game.  Reimu is once again the best character(to pick) for obvious reasons & Youmu though hard to use like in IN, is actually quite usable imo & though I haven't beaten the game with her, it's just because of my own fail level as a player but not so much for Sanae who is just not doing it for me even with her perks which only work well on the higher difficulties but because her shot type is so weak...yep...Anyway, I liked that ZUN fused(kind of did anyway) the shot types together but Reimu & in a small way, Marisa is the only 1s who benefited from it what so ever.  Lastly, Marisa's shot type is once again badly made, at certain levels her unfocused shot seems more powerful then her focused shot type but then at times it seems the way it is suppose to be with her focused shot type being better but with all that being said my biggest problem with her is that her lasers are piss poor weak considering their narrow range & all I mean they are suppose to give her range but in reality, they don't & Sanae just needs a re haul in regards to her shot type in general so...As far as bombing, Marisa's is the only 1 that sucks & the perks don't make up for it what so ever & it lasts too long...there is nothing really worth mentioning in regards to movement speed so umm, I'm done here.

Non-Playable Characters : This is from a perspective that is not referring to the story as I don't speak Japanese.  Well, I will say some things that seem that way but still...anyway...From the perspective of not knowing their personalities or whatever, I find them all appealing to a great extent except for Mononobi no Futo because of the reoccurring boat thing...again!?  Can we now have a game where I don't see a boat please as I saw too many of them in UFO to want to see any at all in the NEXT GAME in the main series of games, sorry, just no.  Kyouko & Mamizou are both really, REALLY adorable while Yoshika I find to most likely be very entertaining when I find out what it is that is going on in the dialog & Seiga I find to be the prettiest of them all though in close competition to some of the others & lastly, Miko as everyone is calling her so I will to is impressively designed imo.  Nice to see Yuyuko again as it is again nice to see Kogasa & Nue though both of the later could have been characters I haven't seen in a second game to date instead of I am satisfied I guess.

Difficulty ; Here we go...here we go, let's do this.

Stages : I find Stages 1-3 to be actually nothing different then past experiences but once I hit Stage 4, there was a huge increase in tempo or speed that was annoying & lasted til Stage 6...at first anyway but that went away after I got used to it which didn't take even a week, Stage 6 is meh which is good imo as I don't think in these games they are meant to be an actual stage but just some puddies you smack around while waiting for the "big bad boss" to show up though I didn't like only getting 1 bomb fragment in that entire flurry of wasted time so again, it was so-so, meh.  Extra Stage was utter trash & I dare you to disagree with me, it was just a rehash of previous Extra Stages bunched together & I mean that literally, go look & tell me I'm wrong, didn't even enjoy going threw it I mean there has only been 7 or in the case of the PC-98 games, 13 Extra Stages(not counting Phantasm Stage of PCB cause it was obvious a rehash which was fine imo) so he should still have some good ideas for this stage, just saying, I was not impressed & frustrated at the same time, not a good combination.  The better of the stages are Stage 6(What?!  Yes!) & Stage 3, the rest were forgettable in all honesty.

Mid Bosses/Bosses :
Saigyouji Yuyuko was done correctly, not TOO easy but not too difficult either like some others I won't mention or remember at the moment.
Kasodani Kyouko was first off, boring & at times seemed to be a rushed job of potentially borderline broken(not in the difficult way) patterns & at times ignore-able patterns as well which were both due to that sound barrier thing she does which ricochet the bullets every which way meaning I may have wanted to give her a suffocating Hug after whoever I was playing with would destroy her but...she is WAY more of a annoying runt then an actual Boss like she was suppose to be.
Miyako Yoshika is 1 of the better done bosses though she has a pattern or 2 that is fade out-able on like the Spell Card with the purple slashes of bullets, she also has some stuff that is more aggravating that enjoyable like the point of the word challenge not being the word difficult was missed completely like her 1st & last Spell Card being a pain, more so her last 1 as it requires 1 to make some resounding drifts around the boss that variate in direction each time you need to do it & is strict on the time interval if you want to do it really quickly(only done it once perfectly, ONCE!) so she is alright, not terrific but not dreadfully unamusing either like someone previously mentioned.
Kaku Seiga who I could have sworn had a longer name somewhere on the screen besides Kaku, I think it was Keiku but whatever, not important...what is important is that(& I need to use this comparison to evaluate her so) the duet of Bosses that were Stage 4 of Mystic Square rains all over their parade everyday of the week I mean poor Kaku can't even generate a worthy pattern on her own to save her life, HER LIFE I mean come on now, Yoshika completed her in that battle so it was really like battling 1 person who was no better then any 1 other person I have fought in any other Touhou game to date I mean at least the formally mentioned duet was a challenge worthy of a Stage 4 Boss in anyway but nope, I get this...only thing difficult about her patterns were the speed they were coming at for the difficulty I was playing on which was always impressive but there was nothing else to anything she did so after 1 time failing to beat her I almost perfected her on an actual playthrough of the game but I fail so I had to bomb something that was catching me a bit off guard so whatever, my point is that she is a Boss, just not a Stage 4 Boss, more like a Stage 2 Boss or even a Stage 1 Boss depending on some of the perspectives around here.
Mononobi no Futo, whose name I remember due to it's flow being similar to Mononoke which is obviously from Mononoke-Hime...is actually leaving me with mixed feelings, her Spell Cards are okay though 1 or 2 of them are so so very easy like the 1 with the circle of bullets & the rain of shard bullets raining down along with it or the 1 with the red & orange bullets especially but her normal patterns that aren't Spell Cards can die as they require too much of an good calibration on whatever you are using to move your character around to do them without too much trouble but otherwise they are not a problem or too easy so she is though a failure in comparison to Yoshika a decent boss as well.
Toyosatomimi no Miko, while I am hoping she is some sort of animal girl Miko was the most enjoyable challenge wise of the entire roster of characters, she is actually pretty fun for me to battle & the only real problem I have for her is that her final Spell Card is actually in all honesty, a disgrace to say the least, I still have a hard time doing it but that is because I currently am forced to use a analog stick which is known to be a terrible choice when playing these types of games...On the other hand, her normal patterns that aren't Spell Cards needed much more variety like any other previous Stage 6 Boss in any main Touhou game & a couple of her Spell Cards are easier then they should be for whatever reason & lastly, she doesn't seem to have a Spell Card with any wow value that isn't just a almost rehash of 1 of Utsuho's or some other boss' Spell Cards & the 1 with the bullets blitzing away from her is just fun to do, all in all, I can except this from a Stage 6 Boss besides the Final Spell Card which was rushed & was more so irritating like Utsuho's last Spell Card then a challenge like Byakuren's last Spell Card but anyway, like this boss fight.
Futatsuiwa Mamizou is in all honesty the most fun I ever had with an Extra Boss outside of Suwako who is most likely never going to be beaten, her patterns seem easy compared to even Suwako's or any of the other 1s but they are not by any means too easy for Extra Mode imo, her Non Spell Cards much like most other Extra Stage Bosses are until it hits the later part of the battle & then it just becomes boring as hell & a bit more challenging though not much of course, I have & most likely never will get to the Time Out Spell Card if she has 1 because I just can't do well enough against her with my stupid analog stick on my PC controller so I only have seen up to the spell where the birdies & wolves/doggies are coming from the left & right respectively & I either lose before being able to attempt this card or before getting past the next normal pattern that follows this, overall, say what you will but she isn't terrible for an Extra Stage Boss, just not 1 of the harder ones which I am glad for since I need a change from the norm or whatever.
Tatara Kogasa was easy even on Hard & most likely even Lunatic & I only see myself ever failing her Spell Card on Lunatic for obvious reasons, she was okay but could have been more difficult without making the game any more frustrating to beat what so ever but what can you do.
Soga no Tojiko I wish was 1 of the actual bosses but I always wish this in regards to 1 of the Mid Boss exclusive characters, anyway, she was more exciting & even challenging then the actual Boss of both the previous stage & the stage you are on when you fight her which is good...for her...she was perfectly fine, don't want a Mid Boss being hell on earth, that is suppose to be reserved for the actual Boss of the same stage, though I do find her a bit on the easy side, I will get to that in a sec.
Houjuu Nue was a combination of annoying & challenging that I am used to seeing from the norm of Extra Stage Mid Bosses from this franchise, her first Spell Card was fine but too easy to do from the bottom of the screen which is sad, her second Spell Card is the Spell Card I hate of the entire collection of Spell Cards the game has to offer & I purposely bomb through it cause it is BS, BS! though her last Spell Card is just a piss poor version of Toyosatomimi no Miko's Last Spell's first phase which is both just annoying & kind of easy actually, I only fail it when I am exhibiting some kind of aching or cramps on my hands...at least she isn't Ex-Keine, that is for sure or I would not be happy at all, but I digress.

In general, the Difficulty of the game was a bit on the easy side but I figured this would happen simply based on the Scoring System main attraction, other wise known as Trance Mode or whatever...It could only really be implemented the way it was but there still could have been some risks thrown in there & not have that stupid nuking of the Death Bomb's interval upon having the gauge full but what can you do.  I also don't like being forced to do something at a specific moment in order to get more extends or bombs so I am not a friend of any of the scoring systems after MoF's which I don't really like either but it handled Extra Extends better then 10Ds did.

Overall Impression = B

Hopes for the Future = I am hoping that TH14 or whatever the next game is handles Extra Extends & Bombs, Difficulty variations between the different difficulties & among the stages themselves on any given difficulty including Extra of course & lastly, handle the player characters way better while also introducing another character & this time someone I haven't used in a previous game already for the new character as I do like the multiple options for characters & don't completely mind the vanishing of the multiple shot types for any given character as I don't find it appealing as I used to anyway.

Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Ghaleon on August 30, 2011, 01:49:20 AM
Touhou's average has no relevance. I want my stuff to be as difficult as SA at least. If it isn't, then its boring. Period. MoF is excused because its scoring makes it awesome. Plus, it has Aya and VoWG.

Is this a troll post? I honestly don't know. How can you say you like Touhou but say 10 out of 12 other games have no relevance? In any case they do have relavance. This is a Touhou board, with Touhou fans, in the Touhou section, they're VERY relevant. Touhou isn't SA and UFO, not by a longshot. Again, if you dislike the game that's ok, if you dislike the series that's ok too. But my point was that I can't imagine anybody can honestly say that this game is really all that easy compared to Touhou's average, and you proved it in spades. But you're stuckup if you truly believe that your opinion is some kind of  universal fact, that UFO and SA are the only games that matter in the series.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 30, 2011, 03:02:31 AM
What about EoSD and Mystic Square? You didn't 1cc Mystic Square Lunatic yet, and neither have I. And EoSD is pretty tough too.

But MoF and SA are pretty quality too. Plus, I'd rather have an easier game than one that's hard for all sorts of wrong reasons. But I haven't even played 10D at the moment, still need to do so.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: かけふみ on August 30, 2011, 03:56:08 AM
So the problem with something that is 'too easy' is that the experienced players are left out. This is true.

With similar reasoning, no matter what the difficulty of the game is, the spectra of all 4 difficulties will inevitably miss out players of a certain skill levels.
For example. when UFO came out, some players were unhappy for it being 'too hard'. And from what I observe UFO - Easy was actually not easy enough for some. That was what the previous Easy-s were for, to bridge the skill gap.

Hence as the game will always be, relatively, 'bad' for some players. Similarly it is 'good' for other players. Overall it is just as 'good' or 'bad' as every other Touhou game.

All this sounds like government policies yea? Some class of people would always be left out.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Sapz on August 30, 2011, 03:59:43 AM
Touhou's average has no relevance. I want my stuff to be as difficult as SA at least. If it isn't, then its boring. Period. MoF is excused because its scoring makes it awesome.
This isn't even an argument. I imagine you've struggled with easier games than SA Lunatic in the past - were they still boring when they were too hard for you to beat? I remember a while back you were saying the same thing in the other direction - UFO was apparently bullshit because it was too hard. Not every game has to suit your personal skill level exactly, different games are pitched at a variety of audiences rather than you specifically.

Fake-edit: Haha, ninja'd saying pretty much the same thing. :V

Having said this, I would agree that from what I've seen and heard from others, 10D is too easy for scoreplay. It's nothing to do with the base difficulty of the attacks (although these are also a little easier on the whole compared to some previous entries), but unlike most games where scoring becomes progressively more difficult as you get better at it, scoring here appears to get easier the more you get to grips with it, and has been mentioned you end up spending larger and larger periods of time doing nothing much while completely invincible even on the highest difficulty.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: orinrin on August 30, 2011, 04:21:55 AM
My opinion:  This game is ass and the only thing redeeming it is the music.
Quote from: FukiBogus
the music.
Oh wait.  :|
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Azinth on August 30, 2011, 04:59:46 AM
I pulled myself out of a massively long shmup burnout to give this game a legitimate try.

I can't get over how... safe this game feels.  I'm going to inevitably draw comparisons to UFO here, because the two games just feel like complete opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the 'vanilla' Touhou games.  UFO was so controversial when it came out, with its outlandish gameplay (well, outlandish by ZUN's standards anyway) and almost arcade-like brutality.  TD, on the other hand, feels like ZUN wanted to go with something basic.  The patterns are simplistic (even the 'gimmicky' ones), the scoring system is really easy to understand and abuse (and a variant of the Hyper mechanic from DDP, which is already pretty overused in both Cave games and doujin shmups already).

After playing it for a few days, I sort of lost interest and my burnout continued unhindered.  At one point I game-overed to the final pattern on Lunatic and felt really frustrated.  Not because I really wanted the 1cc, but because I just didn't feel like playing through the entire game again.  >_>

I dunno.  IMO, there's really nothing wrong with easy shmups.  I can play through something like LLS or Daioh's first loop and enjoy myself, even if they don't exactly push me to my limits.  There's also nothing wrong with straightforward shmups, as long as the design is good enough.  But in the end, I can't really imagine myself sinking very much time into this when other games do everything this game does, but better.  If I want to kick back and play a 'sluggish' Touhou game, I'd rather just do a survival run of PCB or IN.  For Hyper-based scoreplay... well, I'm not a big fan of hyper gimmicks, but I'd guess DOJ or Crimson Clover is more worth your time.

Stylistically... yeah, not much of an opinion either way on that.  The music, while not mindblowing, is enjoyable enough.  Alternate tracks for Trance mode is a nice touch.  The character designs don't interest me that much, except for Mamizou.  She's awesome.

And now I have a huge urge to play some UFO.  dammit :V
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Sapz on August 30, 2011, 05:20:25 AM
I pretty much agree with this; it feels a little like Touhou-by-numbers except for that hilarious Extra boss, which was an interesting surprise.

Also,
I pulled myself out of a massively long shmup burnout
Any chance of some Strikers 1999 competition? I've developed a liking for Psikyo lately. BV
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 30, 2011, 06:11:50 AM
I'm not in the mood for walls of text, but I will submit my own opinion in short form:

The characters are eh. Their backstories are certainly interesting, but I find it really difficult to like such...uh, evil characters. My favorite by far is Yoshika, silly bird-brain. :3

The music is wonderful. It took me a bit to get attached to some of the songs, but in the end I've grown to like all of them. Of course, this is one thing ZUN is consistent about through all games.

The scoring system? Even as someone who could care less about scoring systems beyond their survival benefits, yeah this was kinda your bad ZUN. :V The world record I watched was hilarious because the dude didn't even fight the bosses. When he wasn't trancing, he was bombing for trance. When he had no bombs, he suicided for death-trance and the chance to get more bombs for more trance. MORE POINTS FOR THE SCORE THRONE.

But most importantly, the game itself. What do I think? It's pretty plain as day to say that the difficulty has been reduced, but that's no issue for me. For me, the game is fun. While the danmaku may not be all that demanding, it certainly isn't something I can blow off and not concentrate on. Even though it's often easy, I enjoy it. Yes, I enjoy a simple, easy, abusable game that doesn't reward risk. I wonder though, how would all of you badmouthing the game's difficulty act if you were to go through the game without intentionally trancing at all? Any time you death-trance, stop shooting and don't move until the effect wears off. See then how easy the game is. :3

All in all, it's not my favorite Touhou game; not as tight, not as variable. However, I still enjoy it and will continue to love it as I do most of the series.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 30, 2011, 11:07:54 AM
Is this a troll post?

It wasn't intended as one. I admit it was a bit on the harsh side though. I put too much of my own opinion into it. I suppose a comparison to the more mainstream Touhou games would probably be more fair but the thing is just, I put effort into learning SA and UFO. I need this challenge to be maintained to avoid having things be too easy for me. Its not like its only my opinion that matters, of course not. What I'm saying is simply that this game is too easy and that is why I don't like it. I point to SA and UFO to explain what I expect out of a Touhou game.

All this sounds like government policies yea? Some class of people would always be left out.

You can't really compare this to politics. Its different.

I wonder though, how would all of you badmouthing the game's difficulty act if you were to go through the game without intentionally trancing at all? Any time you death-trance, stop shooting and don't move until the effect wears off. See then how easy the game is. :3

Try 1cc'ing UFO without picking up UFO's. I don't see why you would have to artificially enhance the difficulty of the game. Its something I would do for my favorite games.

I don't think it would do much of a difference. I'm talking about the gameplay from a, no bombs, no trances perspective. That's what decides the difficulty for me since most Touhou games, if not all of them, can be 1cc'd without too much hazzle through careful resource-management. Once you got the planning down that is.

What about EoSD and Mystic Square? You didn't 1cc Mystic Square Lunatic yet, and neither have I. And EoSD is pretty tough too.

EoSD has some good danmaku but too many flaws for me to properly appreciate it. MS Square... Game feels very slow until the Stage 4 boss so no, haven't bothered with it. Its better than TD though.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Erppo on August 30, 2011, 01:22:58 PM
I don't think anyone has yet given any explanation why Lunatic shouldn't be hard. It's not what the people who felt left out by UFO play anyway and I don't see much sense in suddenly toning down the hardest difficulty, when the general trend lately has been making it harder.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 30, 2011, 04:40:33 PM
I don't think anyone has yet given any explanation why Lunatic shouldn't be hard. It's not what the people who felt left out by UFO play anyway and I don't see much sense in suddenly toning down the hardest difficulty, when the general trend lately has been making it harder.

But the problem with this line of thinking is that you're judging this trend by the last two games alone. SA and UFO were harder games, and had difficult lunatics to match. But before this, was there really ever a steady increase of difficulty? In my opinion, LLS was harder than SoEW, MS was harder than LLS, EoSD was slightly easier, then PCB was easier still, IN a bit easier, MoF about the same, and only then did the difficulty increase with SA and UFO. When ZUN said he was making the game easier, who's to be surprised when suddenly every difficulty is a step down? Perhaps ZUN wanted to give the less-skilled player a chance to 1cc a hard mode, or even a lunatic? It's not as though ZUN is tailor-fitting the game to fit every person's desires. This time he's looking to the less-skilled players it seems.

Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 30, 2011, 04:52:30 PM
Perhaps ZUN wanted to give the less-skilled player a chance to 1cc a hard mode, or even a lunatic? It's not as though ZUN is tailor-fitting the game to fit every person's desires. This time he's looking to the less-skilled players it seems.

I don't get it. Does the satisfaction come from clearing a difficulty named Lunatic or does the satisfaction come from clearing something that's actually difficult?

This game's Lunatic mode is really a Lunatic mode by name only. What's gonna happen then? People go 1cc TD Lunatic, think they are awesome and go play SA and UFO only to find out that they are not? I don't understand what good that would do. And it still doesn't explain why there wouldn't just be a fifth difficulty named Overdrive. If nothing else, then just keep Lunatic difficult and tone down the rest of the difficulties. That way I guess most people should be satisfied.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: MTSranger on August 30, 2011, 05:00:41 PM
This game Lunatic is really a Lunatic mode by name only. What's gonna happen then? People go 1cc TD Lunatic, think they are awesome and go play SA and UFO only to find out that they are not?

I disagree. I still got no chance of 1cc'ing SA or UFO lunatic (heck, I'm even having trouble with UFO hard),
despite already done the lunatic mode of the 4 Windows games before that.
I view SA and UFO as anomaly, not as "normal", and I'm not surprised that ZUN stepped back to the more "normal" difficulty.

That said, it'd be nice to have an actual built in Ultra / Overdrive mode though. That'd be fun to play.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Erppo on August 30, 2011, 05:05:37 PM
I don't get it.

Indeed. I'm just unable to see the point here, since I don't see how making Lunatic so much easier would serve anybody. The people unable to deal with the difficulty have always had three other ones to play, so what do they have to gain from an additional easy Lunatic (which pattern-wise seems to be the easiest one to date)?
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 30, 2011, 05:12:55 PM
I disagree. I still got no chance of 1cc'ing SA or UFO lunatic (heck, I'm even having trouble with UFO hard),

Yes. That's why the anomaly is awesome then. You can just play Hard if Lunatic is too hard right? People that aren't as good as you can play Normal or Easy. The people who have been playing for a long time and can take it can play Lunatic. Everyone is happy right? TD. It only provides for the less-skilled players. There isn't anything for people like me.

I wonder, how would less-skilled players think about UFO if only Lunatic was available? Then they were the ones who would be left out while the lunatics would love it. That's not how UFO is. But that's basically what TD is. Just reversed.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Tengukami on August 30, 2011, 05:50:48 PM
I do think it's probably a mistake to dismiss every other game in the series, and judge 10D based on SA and UFO alone. This is really short-sighted.

On the other hand, everyone has their own preferences. If Zen chooses to narrow his focus on two games out of the entire series, then that's his particular standard. It's not a point you can even argue against, really, as that's his metric stick for Good Touhou Game.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 30, 2011, 07:10:44 PM
Its not short-sightedness. I simply don't have much choice in this matter. I have played these games for a very long time. I don't dismiss stuff like IN because I think its bad but because its simply way too easy. It doesn't challenge me and when it does its through stupid concepts like lasers that give you no indication as to when they turn themselves on. It doesn't change the fact that I tear through the game though. SA and UFO - and once again MoF - is the games that truly do matter to me. Its the only games that still manages to provide that awesome entertainment that I got into this series for in the first place. That's why I exclusively compare TD to those games. There is no sense in me comparing them to stuff I don't play any longer.

And UFO. It took me a hell of a lot time to develop the skills to properly play that game. No spell practice and no desire to play those stages really killed my progress speed. Still, sooner or later I started to see some actual improvement and gained some consistency. At this point I realized that I had been wrong the entire time last summer and I was just too stuck up to realize it. Now that I have that skill, the older games have lost their entertainment factor because they are now too easy and the new games doesn't carry on the trend of SA and UFO but instead makes a game that rivals PCB in easiness. A game that I managed to 1cc before even unlocking stage practice with four lives in stock. On my first try.

If SA and UFO indeed is the exceptions, then I'm really disappointed. I like Touhou, I really do, that's why I want it to be fun for me too! I want to appreciate PCB and IN again. I want to. But those games just doesn't have more to deliver. Sure they were challenging once but not anymore. I need new and bigger challenges to improve. Not easier games. That is why TD fails so heavily for me.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Tengukami on August 30, 2011, 07:13:20 PM
stuff

I'd like you to go back and read my post again. It seems like you're repeating what I just said, only with more words.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 30, 2011, 07:16:13 PM
I'd like you to go back and read my post again. It seems like you're repeating what I just said, only with more words.

I understand that. But you still called it short-sightedness and that's not what I believe it is. I just wanted to thoroughly elaborate on this matter.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Arcengal on August 30, 2011, 08:47:15 PM
I don't know if anyone remembers this, but I'm pretty sure ZUN said something when UFO came out like "oh and I toned the difficulty down from what it was supposed to be, so stop complaining".

Also, I don't mind PCB being easy because the Yuyuko fight is still incredibly fucking epic. The only stage 6 that's more epic is Byakuren, but that's because the game is so difficult that being at the finish line and having the music sing you the last bit of the way there is amazing.

And then you game over on LFO and you cry. ;_;
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Krakozhia on August 30, 2011, 09:22:30 PM
I think you're all getting a little off track here. 

When a game has multiple difficulties, you can't say that the easiest difficulty is too easy. I mean, if the easiest difficulty is too easy for you, you can simply play a harder one.  You can complain that the easiest difficulty is too hard (you can't beat it, regardless of how many attempts you make), or perhaps it is just right.

The same goes for the hardest difficulty.  It is absolutely impossible for the hardest difficulty of a game to be too hard (assuming that it is not straight-up impossible to beat).  After all, if it is too hard for you, you can simply play a lower difficulty, right?

Does the satisfaction come from clearing a difficulty named Lunatic or does the satisfaction come from clearing something that's actually difficult?

This seems pretty dead-on.

Allow me to make a comparison here:  Let's pretend for a moment that TD Lunatic is around the same difficulty as UFO Hard.  By rights, you should feel no more satisfied for 1ccing TD Lunatic than you would for 1ccing UFO Hard.  After all, it is not more difficult, you do not have to put more effort into it, and most importantly, you do not have to be better. Why, then, would you feel any better about it?

If all you want is for the game to tell you that you're good, play Earthworm Jim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fPSTJGe-3o).

Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on August 30, 2011, 09:54:01 PM
Lol, that ending was hilarious.

Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Vibri on August 30, 2011, 09:59:44 PM
I think the issue with TD isn't how it compares to the other games in the series, honestly. It can be summed up like this: if the hardest difficulty is still easy to a player, then that player has no reason to play the game. They're just not gonna get anything out of it. That's why people are put off by the game.

The issue is that 'too easy' is a completely subjective thing, so there's no way you can argue about it. That's not a big deal, though. I'd like to think that Zengeku or Erppo or whoever not liking the game isn't gonna make anyone else suddenly hate it.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Azinth on August 30, 2011, 10:02:30 PM
Technically, the only thing truly required of Lunatic is to be the hardest difficulty in the game.  Not 'equal to UFO' or 'equal to SA' (SA is considered as hard as UFO now?  whut).  Just the hardest in the game.  And TD Lunatic accomplishes that.  Difficulty is so subjective anyway, and this argument seems to be heading dangerously into the territory of '"This is bad because OPINION!""No, you are wrong because OPINION!"'

The one thing about this game's difficulty that really sucks is the scoring.  Scoring is usually how you balance an 'easy' game's difficulty.   IN and PCB had easy patterns, but the scoring forced you to play aggressively.  If you pushed the system hard enough, you could almost make those games just as hard as UFO.  This game doesn't have nearly enough of that potential.  I kinda wonder what Japanese fans' opinions are of the game so far.

Also,Any chance of some Strikers 1999 competition? I've developed a liking for Psikyo lately. BV
Ugh, maybe.  S1999 incites so much ragequit out of me, even though I like it.  :(
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: GuyYouMetOnline on September 01, 2011, 04:11:29 AM
thoughts on the game:


Pros:

Great music, as always.
New characters seem interesting.
Enjoyable boss fights (I don't know what you guys are complaining about, especially with Miko; personally, I love that fight, and I think she has some very enjoyably spellcards. Yes, including her last one).
Enjoyable stages.
Nue's back.
Good difficulty level (again, I don't really know what you're all complaining about).

Cons:

Less variable number of extra lives/bombs. Before SA, it was either score or point items that got you extra lives, which was fine. SA's system I didn't like, but UFO's I did, since it was in large part up to the player to decide which to go after. Yes, this time around you do have more control than in SA, thanks to Trance doubling the life/bomb spirit effect, but still, I prefer it to be more up to the player in whatever way.
Spirits stay where they appear, putting way too many of them near the top (they should come at least as far down as the UFOs in UFO do).
Trance mode can only be used fairly infrequently. I mainly don't like the fact that you can only activate it manually when it's at maximum; if you could activate it at any time (with a minimum, such as a single flame, being just fine by be), it'd be much better.


Thoughts on this topic:

Shut the hell up already, okay? Yes, some of you don't agree with things that others say, and that's fine. Stating why you don't agree is also fine. Insulting other people's opinions or saying that they're wrong, not so much. News flash: DIFFERENT PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. It's fine to disagree, but let's cut the 'you're wrong' and 'you're stupid' thing out, okay?
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 01, 2011, 09:01:21 AM
Good difficulty level (again, I don't really know what you're all complaining about).

Because the game has nothing like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kexKIIu5aEk), this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iK8bdov6XsE) or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtgYwR1f3mE). It might not be a problem for most people but it is to people like myself, Naut and Jaimers who has higher levels of skills and wants challenges to match it.

It's fine to disagree, but let's cut the 'you're wrong' and 'you're stupid' thing out, okay?

Where do you see those? I don't see it.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Tengukami on September 01, 2011, 10:57:30 AM
Where do you see those? I don't see it.

I think the point he's making is that some of y'all have made your opinions very abundantly clear, and you don't need to keep coming back to hammer them down, over and over.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Xyden on September 01, 2011, 11:14:31 AM

Enjoyable boss fights (I don't know what you guys are complaining about, especially with Miko; personally, I love that fight, and I think she has some very enjoyably spellcards. Yes, including her last one).
Enjoyable stages.
Good difficulty level (again, I don't really know what you're all complaining about).

Now I don't mean to be rude I really don't see the huge deal about Miko. I really don't. She by far the most underwhelming Stage 6 boss in the entire series.Alot of her attacks are too simple and uncreative and all Zun did to make them look "pretty" was add some unnecessary bright color that fucking hurts my eyes. That whole fight just screams laziness to me.

The stages are too easy and drag on alot more than usually(Stage 3 is very guilty of this).

Also reason for bitching about the difficulty level is pretty reasonable considering its TOO easy and alienates players who want a legitimate challenge like with UFO and SA. For new players its fine but someone like me doesn't want a Lunatic that's easier than EoSD Hard(or Lunatic PCB for that matter). The game overall just feels dumbed down compared to UFO.

Again I'm not gonna criticize you for liking the game. I'm just expressing my opinion on the matter. You can love the game for all I care really.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 01, 2011, 11:50:46 AM
I think the point he's making is that some of y'all have made your opinions very abundantly clear, and you don't need to keep coming back to hammer them down, over and over.

Apparently by claiming that people had been insulting each other. I don't think the best way to stop people from arguing is by posting things like 'I don't know what you guys are complaining about' which basically screams for further elaboration. I'm fine with stopping the argumenting about the game now, I was going to since last Tuesday in fact, but I don't want that guy to imply that I've been insulting people since I'm primarily the one who has been doing the bitching about the game.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Miruruneko on September 01, 2011, 03:11:32 PM
I rather like Touhou 13, actually. The music feels like he was experimenting with new things, and I liked them all, especially Rigid Paradise and True Administrator, as well as Seiga's theme! I think Youmu's an interesting character, and I'm not sure if it's just me, but I think his art style improved in this one. =x Or at least, I like the art style in this one more. Also, Yuyuko stage 1 boss= <3.

For the people complaining about difficulty, I can understand that, but he -did- say he was making it easier from the start, right? It still feels like as much of an accomplishment to 1cc this as it did with Perfect Cherry Blossom and the rest. Rather, not every game is going to tend to the people who are amazing, or "OMG I'M SO PRO". =\ Sometimes it's nice for the not-so-great players to get acknowledged, I think. =x
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: GuyYouMetOnline on September 01, 2011, 03:23:19 PM
Apparently by claiming that people had been insulting each other. I don't think the best way to stop people from arguing is by posting things like 'I don't know what you guys are complaining about' which basically screams for further elaboration. I'm fine with stopping the argumenting about the game now, I was going to since last Tuesday in fact, but I don't want that guy to imply that I've been insulting people since I'm primarily the one who has been doing the bitching about the game.

I'm not trying to get people to stop discussing the game. Yes, saying that I don't know what people are talking about invites elaboration, but that was kind of the intent. Discussion is fine.

They are developed for retards. Even at Lunatic difficulty there is nothing difficult about them.

That's what I mean by insulting statements.

Touhou's average has no relevance. I want my stuff to be as difficult as SA at least. If it isn't, then its boring. Period. MoF is excused because its scoring makes it awesome. Plus, it has Aya and VoWG.

Here's another one. You're dismissing another's opinion by saying the argument has no relevence, but comparing a game to the rest of its series is, um, quite relevant. That's not the point, though; the point is that not only are you basically saying 'what you said doesn't matter', but you're stating you opinion as though it were fact. And then to make things worse, you take an exception and basically say 'this one doesn't count because I like it'.

My opinion:  This game is ass and the only thing redeeming it is the music.Oh wait.  :|

This is a statement that does nothing but insult the game. It's pointless and unnecessary, and should not have been made. Explaining why one doesn't like the game is fine, but don't just insult it and leave.

Now I don't mean to be rude I really don't see the huge deal about Miko. I really don't. She by far the most underwhelming Stage 6 boss in the entire series.Alot of her attacks are too simple and uncreative and all Zun did to make them look "pretty" was add some unnecessary bright color that fucking hurts my eyes. That whole fight just screams laziness to me.

The stages are too easy and drag on alot more than usually(Stage 3 is very guilty of this).

Also reason for bitching about the difficulty level is pretty reasonable considering its TOO easy and alienates players who want a legitimate challenge like with UFO and SA. For new players its fine but someone like me doesn't want a Lunatic that's easier than EoSD Hard(or Lunatic PCB for that matter). The game overall just feels dumbed down compared to UFO.

Again I'm not gonna criticize you for liking the game. I'm just expressing my opinion on the matter. You can love the game for all I care really.


This is okay, so let me address it's points: First, my pick for worst final boss of the series would be Remilia. She's the really bland one in my opinion, and if you ask me, she's the one with the really lazy-seeming patterns. I don't think Miko's too bland. And as for difficulty, well, I feel like it does provide a legitimate challenge.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 01, 2011, 05:11:15 PM
That's what I mean by insulting statements.

As I did earlier state, it was poor wording and not meant as an actual offence. Rather, it feels like ZUN doesn't take the player seriously by offering stages that can almost everytime be done by following mechanical and not very complex routes as well as leaving you plenty of time to finish off all the enemies before more arrives.

Quote
Here's another one. You're dismissing another's opinion by saying the argument has no relevence, but comparing a game to the rest of its series is, um, quite relevant. That's not the point, though; the point is that not only are you basically saying 'what you said doesn't matter', but you're stating you opinion as though it were fact. And then to make things worse, you take an exception and basically say 'this one doesn't count because I like it'.

Okay. You are right on that one. I was wrong about being so dismissive. However, I do think its more appropriate to look at the recent games though rather than something that's seven years old. The reason I didn't exclude MoF from the comparisons is not only that its more recent than IN and PCB, it also has tougher danmaku and a more punishing score system which justifies using it with SA and UFO as an argument.

I dismissed comparisons to the other games because I think they too suffer from the issues. Imo, you can't just excuse a game's problems by pointing out that other games share the same flaws. However, with all that said, I don't have some sort of idea that my opinion is universal facts. Other people's opinions are valid too of course.

Quote
This is okay, so let me address it's points: First, my pick for worst final boss of the series would be Remilia. She's the really bland one in my opinion, and if you ask me, she's the one with the really lazy-seeming patterns. I don't think Miko's too bland. And as for difficulty, well, I feel like it does provide a legitimate challenge.

Remilia would probably be my favorite final boss if she was in any other game than EoSD. The hitboxes she uses in that fight are bad. As in, inconsistent with the rest of the series. Which really is a shame because her battle is otherwise awesome. When it comes to making bullet hell shmups, you need challenging patterns. Not colourful patterns. If you think Miko is an interesting boss then that's fair enough.

Btw. The worst final boss for me is by far Yuyuko.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: GuyYouMetOnline on September 01, 2011, 07:27:56 PM
Okay. You are right on that one. I was wrong about being so dismissive. However, I do think its more appropriate to look at the recent games though rather than something that's seven years old. The reason I didn't exclude MoF from the comparisons is not only that its more recent than IN and PCB, it also has tougher danmaku and a more punishing score system which justifies using it with SA and UFO as an argument.

I see. Well, I have to disagree on the older games being less relevant than the newer ones (note: I'm only including the Windows games in this, mainly because I haven't played any before EoSD, so I can't really say much about the older ones), but if that's your viewpoint, it's fine. I'd say you just worded it poorly, then; this was a much better way of putting it.

Quote
Remilia would probably be my favorite final boss if she was in any other game than EoSD. The hitboxes she uses in that fight are bad. As in, inconsistent with the rest of the series. Which really is a shame because her battle is otherwise awesome. When it comes to making bullet hell shmups, you need challenging patterns. Not colourful patterns. If you think Miko is an interesting boss then that's fair enough.

I don't find Remilia's patterns to be all that challenging. Plus, they all feel pretty much the same to me. Miko's, on the other hand, I do find to be fairly interesting.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 01, 2011, 09:16:28 PM
I don't find Remilia's patterns to be all that challenging. Plus, they all feel pretty much the same to me. Miko's, on the other hand, I do find to be fairly interesting.

That is of course a matter of perspective. Personally I find Scarlet Meister and Scarlet Gensokyo to be much harder than anything Miko has. Her battle is pretty monotonously coloured though. Its basically all red. But I guess that fits. Besides, the colors of the bullets doesn't mean much for the gameplay. EspGaluda is all blue (or red) but I still find it an awesome game. What a shmup need is not pretty patterns. It needs challenging patterns. If they can be pretty at the same time, all the better.

But I'm not trying to convince you or anything, since I probably can't. Different people has different tastes.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Drake on September 01, 2011, 11:07:21 PM
The major flaw in this whole discussion seems to be perspective. People who play on the lower difficulties are feeling like the Lunatic players are insulting them by saying the game is too easy, when they probably are struggling to clear easier modes like Normal, or even if they're content with the difficulty. But the players who haven't cleared higher than Normal don't have the perspective of the players who play on higher difficulties, while the higher-up players have at some point been in the same situation as the less experienced players. The only thing the less experienced player sees is "higher difficulties are difficult", and you can't really grasp the situation of the more experience players simply because the difference in opinion is molded by just that: experience.

Yes, ZUN has said before the game came out that the difficulty was toned down to cater to a wider audience. But the fact that he said it is pretty much irrelevant. To cater to that wider and less experienced audience, he instead toned down the difficulty of every mode (in relation to UFO, was likely the intent), as opposed to just making Normal (and Easy) more accessible, keeping Lunatic as difficult for the players who play it already, and leaving Hard mode as an in-between: that's what makes sense in my eyes. As Zengeku said, the sense of accomplishment should be derived from clearing something honestly difficult, not because you cleared something with the label Lunatic on it and it happens to be harder than all the other difficulties. The "standard" of difficulty is tough to explain and define, since there are many different viewpoints as to what constitutes difficulty. For a person who plays Normal, it is difficult to truly define a standard of what "Normal" difficulty is, because they are still in the situation where they are trying to clear all of them. The inability to clear the game clouds your vision and forms biases. A Normal player can't really define the Hard or Lunatic difficulty, either. But looking backwards, a Normal player should be able to come up with an abstract of what constitutes the Easy difficulty, because it's something they can appropriately analyze without much trouble. If you're still having trouble with both SA Normal and UFO Normal, you can't really confirm that UFO Normal is more difficult than SA, even if you get the gist that UFO is harder than SA. It's like you have hard evidence, but not enough to put the guy in prison.

A new player will start the series with the view that all of the games began to "exist" at the same time. It appeared as an already-developed series, so the difficulty of the games can naturally follow a random progression without feeling awkward. But for a person who's been following the series for a while, there should be a sense of progression with new games, a difficulty to look forward to that gives you that extra challenge. Making the highest difficulty easier than before ruins that sort of progression, because there is now no higher challenge to meet. As said above, Normal mode players can't experience that feeling, and looking through their own eyes it just seems as if the Lunatic players want to gloat that they're better; that they're saying "we want the games to accommodate us, not you". This is not the case, and it's difficult to get the message across because of the different points of view.

A large portion of this demographic are new players, and so to them the previous games pretty much all "existed" around the same time, so it feels like they've worked so long at the Normal modes of other games, yet can't clear 10D at the moment. The sense of not being able to clear the game, is misattributed to the game being hard. As a player who hasn't progressed throughout various difficulties yet, this is a very easy mistake to make. It's the exact same thing that happened when SA and UFO came out (ignoring that UFO is honestly difficult); people couldn't clear the game immediately and everyone misattributed the inability to clear as the game being ridiculous or too difficult. There are various reasons for not being able to clear and a large portion of it is learning the game. 10D has been out for half a month. I really believe that the words of people who've cleared a given difficulty matter more than those of people who haven't yet cleared, simply because there's a certain knowledge obtained with clearing. The people who have cleared, at some point probably have not cleared, and that is the key difference.

To put that into perspective, I didn't play the 10 demo much. I don't think I 1cc'd the Lunatic demo. Upon playing the game, it took about three tries for me to clear Normal, and I'm a Lunatic player. Others have cleared it first shot, but whatever. The ascent to Hard mode? Cleared in one shot. It was too simple; it was essentially the exact same as clearing Normal. Even for a Lunatic player, that sort of stretch is very uncomfortable. Even though my dodging skill is above a Hard mode player's, it shouldn't feel as if I was just replaying Normal. Wouldn't it feel weird if clearing a Normal mode felt the same as clearing an Easy mode just prior, even if you were a Normal mode player?

Quote from: Miruruneko
It still feels like as much of an accomplishment to 1cc this as it did with Perfect Cherry Blossom and the rest. Rather, not every game is going to tend to the people who are amazing, or "OMG I'M SO PRO". =\ Sometimes it's nice for the not-so-great players to get acknowledged, I think. =x
This is the perfect example. Saying it's just as much of an accomplishment to 1cc 10D as every other game, hints towards there being a lack of understanding difficulty. It's all the same because it's all labeled the same, not because they're all actually the same difficulty. Having a new game not tend to a degree of players who actually understand the difficulty is why it's upsetting; there's no offense meant but you simply can't understand it because you don't understand the difficulty. Mocking more experienced players by going "OMG I'M SO PRO" is also a gross misaccusation, it hints that you feel that the accomplishments of experienced players belittle your own, and that you feel experienced players are saying that "they know best" for the purpose of belittling you. It's also a misunderstanding that the Lunatic players are complaining about the lesser players being the focus of attention (instead of themselves); these things are definitely not the actual situation.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 01, 2011, 11:49:04 PM
Very well formulated Drake. I back your post up 100%.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Miruruneko on September 02, 2011, 12:26:18 AM
I guess I was a bit selfish to think about it like that, I apologize.
It feels easier than Perfect Cherry Blossom and more or less any other game, but I guess that's because I was only doing the Normal mode, which is the standard for me. I should've been thinking about the "big picture", or rather, both sides of it.

Though it's not so much that I'm mad or jealous at what I'll call the "high-tier" players who play on Hard/Lunatic.
I think what gets me just a bit annoyed is when they actively brag about it to the lower-tier players and like, rub it in their faces that they're better, like a super-post-it note.

Anyway, I guess I can see how it's easier as a whole when it's explained clearly. =x

Sorry if I came off as aggressive, I didn't mean to ^^;
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Drake on September 02, 2011, 12:34:38 AM
It's fine, since your post was such a wonderful example.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: GuyYouMetOnline on September 02, 2011, 01:02:35 AM
:wikipedia:

Yeah, what you said. I was going to bring up the issue of perspective myself, but, well, yeah, you put it better than I ever could have.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Garlyle on September 05, 2011, 02:46:33 AM
Disclaimer for the following contents: Ten Desires crashes my game when leaving Spirit World.  Therefore, I've had to play with Cheat Engine and setting my spirit gauge to a permanent 0.  My experience is notably different as a result since it completely leaves out the trance mechanic.


On difficulty: Honestly, yeah, I can kind of feel it.  When, on my first Normal attempt, I defeated Futo on a sightread without ever dying (I had to bomb once or twice)... well, I kind of "what the hell, game"'d.  I still can't do that for some other Stage 5 Normal bosses, and here I was doing it on a sightread.  But, in a way, I still found it decently challenging.  With less resources, it felt more like I had to play aiming towards 'perfection' - considering I'm usually a pretty reckless player this was an interesting changeup.  ...Still, though, even if I'm not a constant Lunatic player (Just someone who screws around on it casually) I think I can understand it; but honestly Lunatic is about as challenging in this game as it is in most others (If not moreso) still, so I'm not quite sure I'm feeling the same way about it - but this might be because I can't take advantage of every advantage the game gives me.
Oh, and Extra Stage has weird difficulty.  The stage is probably the easiest of Extra Stages, but the actual fight with Mamizou is me throwing things.  I still have more trouble with Koishi, but her, Mami, and Marisa seem to be the Extra bosses I just cannot beat when I've managed to clear the others (sometimes on a first attempt).

On fun:  Despite what I've said above, I don't think lower difficulty is necessarily a bad thing.  Namely, Ten Desires seems to be a lot easier to play by sightread.  I don't generally play Touhou games over and over in short periods of time or even all that consistently anymore; so being able to pick up TD and play it 'off the cuff' is really nice sometimes, and hopefully it retains that.
I also have to admit; even if the patterns aren't necessarily that fun or creative, I still have a lot of fun with them.

On music: I'm so mixed.  I find that I really enjoy the music in-game; but most of it I'm less inclined to listen to out-of-game.  I'm an absolute sucker for variable music though (And wish I could take advantage of it in-game).  Either way, I still am a fan of some of the tracks - although I'm not much of a fan of the first three stages, I really get into the grove from the stage 4 boss onwards, including extra stage.  Starry Sky of Small Desires gets me in the same way that Fires of Hokkai does, almost; but I'm really sort of 'eh' about True Administrator - although I don't actually hate it I can't say I actively enjoy it that much?  It still fits really nicely in-game though, like I said initially.

On characters: .....Y'know, I don't really like 'em.  I like the idea of the characters and their backstory and the kind of crazy bitchery they're involved in, but I can't say I've really come to care about anyone.  Kyouko's kind of fun and Mami is just sosilly that it's hard not to like her for me; but I really don't care too much about the others.  Aside from Miko and Yoshika I still don't even remember any of the other's names, so...
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Shin Rokuren on September 05, 2011, 08:15:48 AM
I won't comment on the difficulty.

Pros:
-4 Playable Characters.
-Bombs are easier to get.
-Kogasa!
-my personal fave: Dagger-type danmaku have their hitbox reduced, imo. I HATE(!) it when my hitbox comes into contact with the older Dagger-type's "aura" and registers a hit. =/

Cons:
-Extra lives are harder to get.
-Miko, as a character, doesn't stand out much as a Final Boss. She simply lacks the feel/impact.

Undecided:
-Music isn't that bad but not great either.
-While ZUN's artwork has improved, I have mixed feelings bout the designs on this one.

That's all.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Critz on September 05, 2011, 05:24:59 PM
As much as I can't understand how Touhou Lunatic could be easy with my current skill yet and why ZUN would reduce the difficulty of the mode that's supposed to be insane (though some players from polish community reported to me that TD Lunatic is "about SA Lunatic level, maybe harder sometimes"), if you feel bored by the game, there are always score runs, perfect runs, challenge runs (like pacifist), overdrives and timeouts of these and lastly Ultra Mode hack (http://cheater.up.seesaa.net/tools/th13u.zip).
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 05, 2011, 05:42:04 PM
if you feel bored by the game, there are always score runs, perfect runs, challenge runs (like pacifist), overdrives and timeouts of these

Been there. Done that. What now?

Well, except the score part but that's boring too.  :V
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Tengukami on September 06, 2011, 07:47:55 PM
I guess I was a bit selfish to think about it like that, I apologize.

What the hell are you apologizing for? For having an opinion? Don't. You're entitled to it.

Been there. Done that. What now?

Well, except the score part but that's boring too.  :V

OH MY GOD WE GET IT ALREADY JESUS
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 06, 2011, 08:06:25 PM
OH MY GOD WE GET IT ALREADY JESUS

It was my impression that Critz didn't get it though. My impression is that he thought we were all speaking about the game's difficulty in terms of 1cc'ing. I wanted to point out that this isn't the case.

Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Tengukami on September 06, 2011, 08:31:51 PM
It was my impression that Critz didn't get it though. My impression is that he thought we were all speaking about the game's difficulty in terms of 1cc'ing. I wanted to point out that this isn't the case.

I think you've pointed out where you're coming from and how you feel plenty of times already, is what I'm saying. Again.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: I have no name on September 06, 2011, 10:05:22 PM
Overall, Ten Desires is a good Touhou game.  Not my favorite, but definitely not my least favorite.  I feel that the difficulty is less than SA and UFO, I find it somewhere around just below IN when it comes to normal mode.  I got a normal 1cc on my first try, and I didn't even run around bosses to get spirits until Stage 6.  Hard mode took me about as many tries as SA hard did, which was around 5.  I tried this game on lunatic solely for unlocking spells in spell practice and I failed horribly.   I've 1cced PCB and IN lunatic, and got to lunatic Remilia once, so I'm by no means bad at Touhou, just nowhere near the best.

The stages are kind of boring, the music is kind of meh (extra stage has the best over music of all of them, Futatsuiwa from Sado is my second favorite extra boss theme), characters seem interesting from the dialogue I read online, Youmu's back and also rather OP if you can time the slashes and move unfocused well, Trance can be used but not really abused if you're playing for survival, the extra stage is one of the more brutal (beaten only by GFW's I think), the boss fights are fun though, if not easy.

The stage 1 midboss...easy, obviously.  It should be, but farming spirits on it can have a wisp spawn on top of you.  Yuyuko has 3 or 4 spells, more than any other Stage 1 boss, and only the last one has any chance of killing me if I'm not paying attention.  Kyouko has cool patterns, not hard to avoid, but still cool and I like the bouncing bullets gimmick.  Kogasa's attacks are basically the same, and not that hard (except her spell on lunatic), and Yoshika's healing is cool but annoying.  also CURVY LASERS, part 2, act 1 on her last spell on hard/lunatic.  Said spell took me 65 or so tries to capture.  Seiga's midboss encounter, if you trance the fairies before her the nonspell is skipped, her spell is really fun and seems like timing it out would get hectic.  Seiga as a boss, I like the gimmick of Yoshika coming back, but CURVY LASERS, part 2, act 2 is kind of annoying.  The Stage 5 midboss who's name I forget, the spell is confusing at first but once you get it, it's an easy capture on all difficulties.  Even Overdrive.  Futo has a boat.  Not as nice as Komachi's, but still a nice boat as it makes her a bigger target on 2 spells.  Overall a fun fight.  The stage portion of Stage 6 gets a special mention here for being the most fun stage portion of a Stage 6 in Touhou, despite having lasers.  Miko...her nonspells are honestly harder than her spells.  However, some of her spells (namely the 2nd and 5th) look visually stunning, and the music that goes along with the fight is awesome.

The spells as a whole are very easy, almost all of them took < 25 tries to capture, while Imperishable Night had easily 50 spells with 50+ attempt counts.  Seiga's overdrive, also known as CURVY LASERS part 2, act 3, revenge of the curvy lasers, took 321 tries to capture.  The most for any IN spell was 281 for Fantasy Heaven.  The overdrives were fun, aside from Seiga's, and all aside from Mamizou's and Seisa's took < 10 tries.  The last spell in the game is underwhelmingly easy, taking 5/3/3 tries to capture on normal/hard/lunatic.

The extra stage, the stage has the most rigid path of all of them, aside from maybe UFO, Nue is one of the easier extra stage midbosses (her last spell is so fun though), despite her first one being unpredictable.  Mamizou's animal danmaku gave me a "what is this I don't even" at first, and her spell are some of the more fun/easily trivializable.  Her nonspells are my favorite of any extra stage boss.  Her survival card is the most annoying of the other extra boss survival cards.

Challenge runs on the main game are either very annoying or impossible; no focus being the lone exception.  When I did that I found it far too easy, having 5 lives (out of 6) going into the final stage.  No vertical is impossible, or very close to it, due to Futo's final card and Miko's final card.  No bombs is very unforgiving, and no deaths is always annoying.

Compared to every other game I've played, this is one of the better ones.  Compared to other Touhou games, it isn't.  However, I still enjoy playing it.

Also, YAY, YOUMU'S BACK!

tl;dr, I like Ten Desires, and it gets a 7.5/10.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: TheMasterSpark on September 07, 2011, 09:57:00 PM
Despite being a step down from the latest two full installments, TD's difficulty happens to suit my needs just right -- performing a no-death, no-bomb run of the Lunatic Stage 6 is actually a reasonable goal this time around, even with my final year of school in progress. And True Administrator is a great song, much darker than earlier final boss themes. Together with Infinite Nightmare from 12.3 (that's the correct decimal, right?  :3) it really shows that ZUN can pull off moody tunes as well as uppity ones.

True Administrator alone earns TD my thumbs up, although I am easy to please if you strike the right chords for me.  :3

Edit: Also, every game should have Spell Practice. It's better that way.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 08, 2011, 08:25:53 AM
(that's the correct decimal, right?  :3)

No. 12.3 is the most recent fighting game. 12.5 is the number you are looking for.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: TheMasterSpark on September 08, 2011, 12:34:14 PM
No. 12.3 is the most recent fighting game. 12.5 is the number you are looking for.

Oh right, and 12.8 is The Great Fairy Wars, eh?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: The Greatest Dog on September 11, 2011, 09:47:56 PM
As a budding Hard/Lunatic mode player...

I think the game's Hard mode was fine. The lack of abundant resources meant you simply had to not mess up when it was most vital (ie dying right before stage 5's finale). Some boss patterns seemed legitimately challenging (Futo's first, Miko's first and penultimate) but nothing was as awesome as Radiant Treasure Gun or Devil's Recitation. I certainly don't feel that exhilarating rush of seeing "Get Spell Card Bonus!!" after capturing anything, really, except maybe Guse Kannon.
Newborn Divine Spirit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRSDj4Wn9FY#t=27m35s) doesn't have that grandeur that Legendary Flying Saucer or Virtue of Wind God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RethO6UCHxg#t=3m06s) has.

Sure, I can say "I 1cc'd Hard" or "I captured all of Miko's spells" but even it wouldn't hold nearly as much personal weight as saying "I 1cc'd UFO Hard" or "I captured LFS Hard with ReimuB at 3.xx power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_cyptvIliI#t=27m09s)."
And then I tried Lunatic and 1cc'd it on my first try. Despite it almost being a "HURR HURR WHY CAN'T I 1CC THIS" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0WBD-IotLo) run, it still scored more than when I actually tried dodging stuff on Hard. Go figure.

The atmosphere in general doesn't seem as good as in other games. Shou, with Tiger Patterned Vaisravana playing a fierce, almost frighteningly powerful song as she uses among the most "powerful" patterns in the series, amounting to one giant "OH SHI-" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_cyptvIliI#t=19m08s). Satori, with her eerily haunting theme playing, climaxing as she reaches her Recollection cards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb7BsMIBfFI#t=12m50s). Mountain of Faith's stage 5, where the music is just so epic when Sanae makes her midboss appearance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb7BsMIBfFI#t=12m50s). Yuyuko's Resurrection Butterfly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_seIEV4sJw#t=28m49s) and its conclusion.

I can appreciate what ZUN tried to do for newer players. Give them less lives, and they should learn how to use their resources more, right? Give them easier patterns so they ease themselves into more?
Except for newer players, they're missing out on the atmosphere and beauty that makes Touhou "Touhou."
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 12, 2011, 05:12:31 AM
Special report! Aya gives her frank opinion on Ten Desires, straight from canon! (http://i56.tinypic.com/29bh5xl.jpg)
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Zengeku on September 12, 2011, 07:11:02 AM
Sweet one Aya. I'll just subscribe to your newspaper right now.  ;)
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: GuppyForce on September 12, 2011, 03:35:20 PM
I just realised another reason why I dislike the patterns in the game so much (Except the Extra Stage).

They're pretty much the same from Easy to Lunatic, just harder. Almost all of the patterns are like this, unlike the Easy/Normal, Hard/Lunatic split (like most Imperishable Night spells). It really added some interesting variation to the spell list
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: XephyrEnigma on September 12, 2011, 04:13:05 PM
Ten Desires. The newest addition to the Touhou lineup. I thought I'd take a moment to address my opinion about the game and explain it's features.

--Music
The music this time around is as solid as it's ever been, though it seems as though Zun's going in a completely new direction with it since UFO. Many of the themes stand out rather well and are quite catchy (Stage 1's theme, for example) and I find myself often booting up the game solely for the music if I don't feel much like playing it (which is often when I have "lazy" moments at my computer)

--Gameplay
Well, this is a broad subject in-and-of itself, so I'm going to break this into a few parts.

-Patterns\Spellcards
I've found that the majority (if not all) of the spellcards in this game are very nice to look at, and almost seem to convey their "meanings" a little better than some previous entries.
Though there are some attack patterns in the game, where I thought, "this could've been made a bit more interesting", or in one case, "why didn't you just use lasers?".

-Difficulty
Honestly, I feel right at home with the difficulty in this game. Not too difficult, but you definitely pay for your mistakes later on in the game (Stage 5-6 anyone?) Not to mention that the fewer extra lives given really makes you pay attention to your resources much more than in other games. I can't say too much about the overall difficulty scaling myself, however there seems to be quite a leap between Normal and Hard. (though at this point that's pretty much par for the course.)

-Unique Features
*Alternating Shottype
Playing as the four characters this time around seems less... time consuming, I'd say, as if you wanted to clear an entire difficulty, you'd need only do it 4 times, (as opposed to, say PoFV's 14(!). ) as there's no A-B shottype selection this time around. Instead, you alternate between strong shots as you press and\or hold the Shift key. (for example, Reimu fires Homing Amulets when unfocused, Persuasion Needles while focused.) I find this a pleasant change since I'd often find myself requiring a shottype I didn't pick during certain stages in previous games.

*Spirits\Trance
I don't have a whole lot to say about the whole "Spirit Item" thing as a whole, But it sorta goes like this. You'll want to be playing the game agressively, trying to kill the enemies as quickly as possible, as they drop more spirits that way, and when bosses are on screen, you'll want to risk staying as close as possible, so that they let out spirits faster. Spirits come in three varieties. Blue: these are what you'll be seeing a lot of. They serve to raise your "Item Value" a little bit. 10 points normally, 100 during Trance(More on this later.) Grey: These appear when you've managed to defeat multiple enemies in succession, and are similar to gold-bordered point items in MoF. These are worth your current full item value, regardless of your position on the screen. Red\Green: And these are where your resources come from. Red for lives, Green for bombs. That's really all there is to it on that :V

-Scoring
Recently, I decided to play this game for score as a little test, after I'd gotten the hang of how it worked. Honestly I found myself abusing invincibility frames on top of bosses for the bulk of my final score. To me, this seems rather counter intuitive, once you take into account that: 1. Bombing fails spellcards as well as dying. 2. If you're in Trance when a spellcard starts, you fail instantly. Granted, you could time your bombing\trancing so that you're not doing it during spellcards, but then you'd miss out on hundreds of millions of points. I mean, it turns out that capturing spellcards and playing the game well only results in, roughly 55% of my total score at the end of the game. (for example, 230m compared to 400m)

I felt rather disappointed that in order to score well, you pretty much had to throw away spellcards, it seemed at the time. To end this segment, I'll just quote myself from earlier today. "It's a good concept. It's definitely a good concept, but it needs better excecution."


On the whole, I think 10D is a worthy addition to the series. It's fun to play and whatnot, but the scoring mechanic needs work, I feel.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: BT on September 15, 2011, 03:41:01 PM
Uh, I don't know. I'm known to get really attached to music once I give pieces enough time but still, the only music I somewhat liked on my first time was the final boss's (yes, I know, very original of me). I just really don't like the defining melody in most of the other themes, maybe it's the whole "new approach thing". I should give things more time, but honestly, the first impression usually means a lot.

Gameplay is kind of easy is what I'm picking up? I haven't actually played it yet because I'm going through games by order (still pretty new), so maybe soon, but it looks easy enough.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Omba on September 19, 2011, 09:03:40 PM
Difficulty: Very noticeably lowered. Easy mode is perhaps the easiest one from the whole series (6-13, at least). Would have been great if ZUN had included a fifth difficulty or kept lunatic at least as hard as UFO's was; especially considering the ridiculous amount of continues you get on lunatic. I miss that feeling of utterly getting raped. :V

Music: I like it, the title and 6th stage tracks, especially.

Other stuff: I really like the return of spell practice and continues that don't return you to the beginning of the stage. But the most welcome change by far is - not having to clear a stage to access it for stage practice.
Oh how I raged in earlier games when the game crashed or I ran out of continues on the final stage. But no more!
Trance mode is a nice touch; wouldn't want it to return in future games, but for one game it's an interesting change.

... Well, who cares about any of that. The game has Youmu! :V
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Arcengal on September 21, 2011, 10:40:49 PM
After playing the game some more, I find the bosses fine, I still like the music and the characters but the stages are just boring, extra especially. I can kinda understand since I seem to recall an earth-shattering earthquake and near atomic disaster during the game being made. Makes me wonder if Touhou 14 will be Utsuho and Tenshi teaming up to do stuff.

Anyway, back to failing at UFO and EoSD Lunatic.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Trickysticks on September 22, 2011, 01:23:02 AM
I love it, nice music and decent gameplay. Lots of gimmicks(meatshields, health regeneration, in-boss fight dialogue, nice boats), and good music.

The one thing I don't get, though.

I honestly don't see what's so great about desire drive, yet people spaz out about it any time. I like True Administrator much more.
Title: Re: Soo.. uhh, "review" Touhou 13
Post by: Lepetit89 on September 22, 2011, 08:09:44 PM
I actually really liked the game, now that I finally played it. Can't make a final comment on the difficulty yet since I don't want to touch its Lunatic Mode just yet, but I do agree that it's somewhat easier than the other games, but overall still challenging.

Things I didn't like that come to mind are maybe things like
-Stages being unlocked for Practice upon entering them
-Continues not returning players to the beginning of the stage anymore
-Trance that carries over into a Spellcard causes it to be considered failed

The first two aren't even that important, I just won't make use of them and I'm sure they'll help some players, so it's not that much of criticism, really.

What really stuck out to me was the awesome job on the way the BGM complements the stages and fights, though. I found that especially notable during Kyouko's first appearance in Stage 2 and, more importantly, the beginning of Stage 4, Spellcards 2 and 3 during the Stage 4 Boss Battle and Miko's fourth and fifth Spellcard. It was amazing how well it matched and the stage design was really nice as well, Stage 6 had a beautiful background. Also loved the character design, really did.

Furthermore, Spell Practice is always welcome, but the menu did not quite live up to the game's aesthetics (not exactly going to complain about the menu design, though).

As far as Spellcard- and stage design is concerned, I'm not quite sure. A few Spellcards stuck out to me and there were some very cool mechanics (especially in Stage 4), but I didn't really find the Stages themselves overly boring. Stage 5 is maybe a bit too easy, at least it's less of a drain on ressources than in the earlier games (assuming you don't mess up, in which case you do miss out on a lot of Extra Lives and Bombs). The Extra Stage certainly was a little boring, though, the Stage portion at least. Mamizou's NS-Patterns could have used a little more variety too, I think, but aside from that, I have no complaints.

That's also another issue I have - a mistake at the wrong spot can really mean a lot to your ressources if it means that the Trance Gauge is empty at the wrong time. Seems somewhat harsh, at least harsher than, say, SA, so I guess that offsets the seemingly lower overall difficulty a little.

All in all, I think the game did do its name justice, boss battles definitely had a lot of that feeling to them that makes them fun and epic, especially because of the music. Maybe would have preferred having Reimu with only her needles since I like only being able to shoot straight, usually the most fun shot type to build strategies around, to me at least. Regardless, I like the game