Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 08:42:54 AM

Title: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 08:42:54 AM
It kind of feels to me like he has. I don't think we'll ever find out what happened to Mima :( Also from a lot of what's said about Marisa in CoLA etc. it doesn't make any reference to her relationship with Mima which is a little sad.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: AntKiller on July 20, 2009, 08:50:35 AM
LLS is still my fav touhou game  :V
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Stuffman on July 20, 2009, 09:03:36 AM
ZUN doesn't like talking about the PC-98 games in interviews. It is safe to say they are no longer canon. EoSD was likely a reboot of the setting, and seeing anyone from PC-98 again is wishful thinking; the only characters that have made the transition are ones he'd mentioned were his favorites. Mima is a possibility since I think she falls in that category, but don't count on it.

Why he doesn't like referencing the PC-98 games is anyone's guess. Perhaps he thought events like the ones in PoDD and MS didn't fit with the new canon he had in mind.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 20, 2009, 09:09:46 AM
It's clear that PC-98 contradicts the new canon in many ways. It's safe to say it's a reboot of the setting, but I disagree with it being retconned. After all, Alice and Yuka make references to their encounteres in PCB and PoFV respectively.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 09:26:02 AM
ZUN doesn't like talking about the PC-98 games in interviews. It is safe to say they are no longer canon. EoSD was likely a reboot of the setting, and seeing anyone from PC-98 again is wishful thinking; the only characters that have made the transition are ones he'd mentioned were his favorites. Mima is a possibility since I think she falls in that category, but don't count on it.

Why he doesn't like referencing the PC-98 games is anyone's guess. Perhaps he thought events like the ones in PoDD and MS didn't fit with the new canon he had in mind.

Aside from Mima I don't think it really contradicts the new canon that much. it's just a bizarre black hole in the series' past.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Quintafeira12 on July 20, 2009, 10:42:41 AM
I prefer to think it as a distant past, and Reimu and Marisa are Legacy Characters (similar to Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. They all have the same name and looks troughout the game but are different people), and thus, youkai with long life spans like Alice and Yuka are able to find the current Shrine Maiden and a witch look-alike of the old Marisa. Probably direct descendants and heirs to the old spellcards that belonged to each of them.

This would bring some problems about yuka's lines on her first appearence... but any other theory besides the reboot would too.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 20, 2009, 10:48:28 AM
Waaaay too many people buy into the theory that PC-98 Reimu and Marisa are different from the modern ones. There is absolutely no proof of this, Alice and Yuka wouldn't be so dumb to mistake a lookalike, plus Reimu and Marisa recognize Yuka in PoFV as well.

Not to mention ZUN states somewhere in the EoSD profiles (I think Reimu's) that despite the long break between MS and EoSD, not much time has passed in the games. Anyone looking to call them different at this point are just ignoring facts.

EDIT: "Chronologically this title is not too far from the previous title, thus her age stays the same as before."

So there.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Quintafeira12 on July 20, 2009, 10:51:35 AM
Not to mention ZUN states somewhere in the EoSD profiles (I think Reimu's) that despite the long break between MS and EoSD, not much time has passed in the games. Anyone looking to call them different at this point are just ignoring facts.

Less than an year. I know.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima on July 20, 2009, 11:47:05 AM
Alice recognises Reimu in PCB, thanks.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Wordspoken on July 20, 2009, 12:33:52 PM
It's clear that PC-98 contradicts the new canon in many ways. It's safe to say it's a reboot of the setting, but I disagree with it being retconned. After all, Alice and Yuka make references to their encounteres in PCB and PoFV respectively.
This is a bit of nitpicking, but just what is the difference between retcon and reboot of a series?
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 20, 2009, 12:41:43 PM
I think Zun WANTS to forget PC-98. Mima, Shinki, tongue-ghosts, flying turtles....
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: AntKiller on July 20, 2009, 12:49:39 PM
I think Zun WANTS to forget PC-98. Mima, Shinki, tongue-ghosts, flying turtles....

and why? I'll tell you why, I can't eat shrimps anymore  :V

(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z129/biones/cd912c968a4dea62970a5f5ae62adec2.jpg)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Gpop on July 20, 2009, 12:56:41 PM
It's not like he's completely forgotten about the PC-98 games:
Quote from: Notes on ZUN?s Genyou Denshou Lecture
Q: What?s happened to the older characters? Like Alice, Yuka-san, and Mima-sama ?
ZUN: Well, it would be a huge pain to try to bring in older characters all the time. They?d show up, and everyone would be, ?Where have you been all this time!?? It?d be weird to fit them into the story. And, I?d rather make new characters. Of course, I won?t say they?ll never show up again ? Hm, Genjii? Well, Reimu can fly, so she doesn?t need him anymore. *g* He?s kind of a Master Roshi character. But he?s a turtle, and turtles are long-lived. He?s probably peacefully living out his days in a pond behind the shrine.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 20, 2009, 01:01:18 PM
What I said: He WANTS to forget about that.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: WRATHIE_Beatrice on July 20, 2009, 01:40:05 PM
i haf no qualms with pc98.. but most of the char doesn't stick to me as much as Mima does, unfortunately...
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 20, 2009, 02:02:05 PM
It's not like he's completely forgotten about the PC-98 games:
Quote from: Notes on ZUN's Genyou Denshou Lecture
Q: What's happened to the older characters? Like Alice, Yuka-san, and Mima-sama …
ZUN: Well, it would be a huge pain to try to bring in older characters all the time. They'd show up, and everyone would be, "Where have you been all this time!?"

To be honest, I wouldn't even care about where they've been, so long as they show up again I'm totally fine with him bringing them back. If everyone else felt this way we might've seen a a bit more PC-98 influence now.

Frankly, there's not much in the PC-98 history that contridicts what's 'canon', and even then you don't have to think really hard to figure them out on your own. Yuka hasn't appeared in any games beyond PoFV for her history and involvment in LLS to really contridict 'canon'. The other PC-98 characters could easily be said to be 'going on their with their lives without getting involved in other incidents'.

All that really needs to be put to rest is Alice and Mima, and, like I said, I don't care what he comes up with to explain it, so long as I know that what I love most about Touhou (or rather the only thing I love about Touhou) isn't just some retcon for Windows to run over, then I'm perfectly fine with what ZUN comes up with.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 20, 2009, 03:50:51 PM
I think your complaint is more about a lack of Mima. A few PC-98 characters have come back, so maybe there will be more. Think of them not as dead but just ... away for the moment.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Helepolis on July 20, 2009, 03:58:51 PM
Mima had her time: Being boss + playable character in PC-98 games. Leave them alone, let them enjoy their peace aside getting blasted with danmaku.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 20, 2009, 04:24:32 PM
Everyone else had their time: Being boss and/or playable character in Windows games. Leave them alone, let them enjoy their peace aside getting blasted with danmaku.
Fix'd
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 20, 2009, 04:33:49 PM
Except bringing Mima back would mean Zun will have to explain things the most compare to other char.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Moerin on July 20, 2009, 04:37:26 PM
Except bringing Mima back would mean Zun will have to explain things the most compare to other char.

Somehow, I think Mima's return would go something like this...

Mima: *shows up at the Hakurei Shrine* 'Sup, homies?  Mima's baaaaaack~
Marisa: Mima-sama, you're back!
Reimu: Oh god, not you again...
Marisa: I haven't seen you for so long!  Where've you been, Mima-sama?
Mima: Oh, here and there...

...And that's all there'll be to it.  Because, come on, how much explanation did ZUN give to Alice and Yuka reappearing?
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Helepolis on July 20, 2009, 04:42:09 PM
ZUN should suddenly take out Marisa and Reimu as playable character for Touhou 13, 14 and 15 (if that ever occurs) just to piss people off. I wonder what would happen.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 20, 2009, 04:55:35 PM
Except bringing Mima back would mean Zun will have to explain things the most compare to other char.
Then avoid bringing her back. Although, what Theorist pointed out makes alot of sense concearning returning characters. Alice just popped up out of nowhere, ditto with Yuka.  Did anyone question anything of where they've been or what they've done all that time?

No. Not at all.

However, in Alice's case, her reappearance just raised alot of stink about why Makai or Shinki wasn't mentioned in her dialouge or profile, but given what happened in MS one can already make a valid assumption as to what she's been up to, so it doesn't really matter that much.

ZUN should suddenly take out Marisa and Reimu as playable character for Touhou 13, 14 and 15 (if that ever occurs) just to piss people off. I wonder what would happen.
Depends on what character(s) replaces them.

God help you if it's Mima.

You know, that's actually not a bad idea, hell, I'd be happy to see Cirno as the next MC for a change as opposed to the same ol' miko and the same ol' witch.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima on July 20, 2009, 04:57:55 PM
TH13 should have teams again, and Marisa and Alice is replaced with Mima and Shinki for no real reason.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 04:58:24 PM
Mima had her time: Being boss + playable character in PC-98 games. Leave them alone, let them enjoy their peace aside getting blasted with danmaku.

I really liked Mima though. Her personality was great and her design made her look like a mad art teacher. The PC98 were light on any dialogue that wasn't between Reimu and Genji. But from what Mima did say, I liked her confidence and arrogance. She was like a mischievous Tendou Souji. I am the God of the human world. It takes some balls to seriously say that and not be completely insane.

ZUN could make a whole game about what happened to Mima. And it would be awesome.

Quote
ZUN should suddenly take out Marisa and Reimu as playable character for Touhou 13, 14 and 15 (if that ever occurs) just to piss people off. I wonder what would happen.

No, leave Marisa in, make Reimu and unlockable character and have some new annoying girl who steals other people's abilities as the main.

"So where's Reimu been lately? I haven't seen her around ..."
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 20, 2009, 05:29:21 PM
12 games and we already have 50+ cast...Zun should start revisiting more older cast...
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 20, 2009, 05:30:30 PM
Satori's not that annoying. Just a little bit
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 05:32:07 PM
SONIC THE HEDGEHOG SYNDROME
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 20, 2009, 05:36:46 PM
12 games and we already have 50+ cast...Zun should start revisiting more older cast...
Oh god this x10 (no 100, because it really needs to be sought after)

In fact, I don't think we would have this problem if we didn't have a new character for EVERY TIME a new game was released. Change is good an all, but it's getting rather exasperating. Also...

SONIC THE HEDGEHOG SYNDROME
Minus the furries.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 20, 2009, 05:39:11 PM
You mean a complete new set of characters randomly more or as powerful as the last batch for no reason and poorly integrated in a long unsustainable scenario? Then yeah, what he said.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 20, 2009, 06:16:26 PM
Personally though, I kinda like the PC-98 games BECAUSE they're forgotten. Dozens of characters with little to no fan work devoted to them besides the occasional art, untouched by the vile hand of fanon...it's all open to interpretation. If you have the imagination, you can make your own background and personalities for the characters, because unless ZUN decides to bring them back, who's going to contradict you? Plus it's much easier to claim yourself as a character's biggest fan in the PC-98 games. *snuggles Gengetu*
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Easy Mode on July 20, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
Is it just me, or do some of the PC-98 songs seem more... "heartfelt" then the Windows songs?
Blast me if you will, but the PC-98 songs seem sweeter, imo.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on July 20, 2009, 06:34:38 PM
My stance is generally that you might as well wonder where Daiyousei, Minoriko, and Letty have been since their initial appearances -- or, for that matter, where Meira was in PoDD.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tonepoet on July 20, 2009, 06:56:51 PM
I have a couple theories, though mind you they're only theory.


This would explain why he suddenly just dropped everything and struck out on his own all of the sudden. It'd explain why so few characters are in the new games. It'd especially bring up why he's so reluctant to bring up the past beyond a few curt words. He might just want to put the whole thing behind him and focus on expanding the mythos.

Another possibility is that he considered since he was moving to a new platform, it might be a good way to reset the canon to something more manageable or bring it into an entirely new direction, without needing to write supplementary material explaining it. With most of the old games becoming unplayable and most of the old fanbase dissipating, it'd be the best time to do such a thing as most of the old would be forgotten. In this theory Windows Touhou is only very loosely derived upon the old series, not directly attempting to contradict it it but not necessarily relying on it either .

Really though, at any rate, I don't think it matters too much. I think Touhou is more of a mythos than a story that has any one central plot. Characters come and go as they become more or less important to the important events taking place. Some characters only really do anything noteworthy once in their lives, others are almost always important and the rest are are purely circumstantial. I think it ends up being a more realistic this way. Nobody knows ever knows what happens to even just one other person during every waking moment or even every important detail that happens to said other person. The same thing goes for the general events happening in the world. There are points of our focus and then there's a bunch of behind the scenes stuff we're not really aware of. They might be important, they might not but since we only have a limited point of view, that's just how things work. That's my view on the matter anyway.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 20, 2009, 07:06:54 PM
I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole MIMA4EVR thing just a meme?
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima-sama on July 20, 2009, 07:15:54 PM
I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole MIMA4EVR thing just a meme?

I'm a massive Mimafag and I can't really explain it. I took my adoration for her so far this year I put a lot of time and money into crossplaying her this year at Otakon.

I suppose the first thing that got me interested was her epic badassery in Touhou Soccer 2. From there I went on to discover more about her and fell into deeper and deeper obsession, now playing PC-98 games as much and almost more than windows games so that I can play games with her in them and doing searches to find all of the remixes of her themes and all the fanart of her I can find.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 20, 2009, 07:20:44 PM
IIRC, Amusement Makers was ZUN and his college buddies, and ZUN left when he graduated. I don't think they left on bad terms, especially since 2 years after MS ZUN came to compose music for Shuusou Gyoku and let Reimu and Marisa cameo as extra bosses. I think he also composed at least some of the music in Kioh Gyoku and personally wrote the profile for Yuka (the infamous "youkai moe" spiel), so yeah I'd be surprised if that theory were the case.

I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole MIMA4EVR thing just a meme?

Apparently she's cool and badass and has a cool design. I can respect the fans who like her for that, but the vast majority seem to just be taken in by the MEEEMAAAA cult and haven't even PLAYED any game with her in it.

Quote
Touhou Soccer 2

And for that I guess. Because people can't get over how a fangame portrayed her abilities completely inaccurately.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 20, 2009, 07:46:48 PM
Yeah, having asked that, I realize there are pros and cons to every character; qualities that could inspire fandom or hatred. As an Aya fan I understand that all too well. And I'm not knocking Mima - she's the one I play in Mystic Square, after all - I just don't know enough about her to understand the fandom.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 07:53:57 PM
Quote
Apparently she's cool and badass and has a cool design. I can respect the fans who like her for that, but the vast majority seem to just be taken in by the MEEEMAAAA cult and haven't even PLAYED any game with her in it.

I don't think it's fair to bitch about this too much until someone actually translates the PC98 games. I played them for a bit and read the scripts for the games. I got a feel for Mima's character but I want to know more about her. That's why I'd like her to appear in the newer games. I think saying she's done and dusted with the PC98 games is ludicrous.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima on July 20, 2009, 08:00:19 PM
Personally though, I kinda like the PC-98 games BECAUSE they're forgotten. Dozens of characters with little to no fan work devoted to them besides the occasional art, untouched by the vile hand of fanon...it's all open to interpretation. If you have the imagination, you can make your own background and personalities for the characters, because unless ZUN decides to bring them back, who's going to contradict you?
For once, I agree.

I've found myself disliking the fandom more and more partly due to how terrible they treat the characters. As you may know, I strictly follow what's set in canon and dislike anything that varies from it.

The reason I don't want Mima to actually return is just that. Currently she's treated well, her (rare) portrayals are usually quite loyal and her (rare) appearances through art etc usually does her justice. She isn't put in terrible pairings and made to look terrible, much like Yuka is nowadays.

Of course, Of Light and Darkness is all about Mima's background and through my fanworks I've been able to give Mima (And other PC-98) more leniancy and even backgrounds. Of course, you have to make stuff that is still loyal to the character.


Quote
I seriously don't understand the Mima fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special?
For me, it's because she's lesser known and thus the above things were allowed. She has a unique interesting look. She's a more mature character and she has good links with other characters. (For example, the fact she is Marisa's mentor/whatever is pretty awesome). She also has a pretty awesome personality, great themes and is just a character who stands out amongst the rest of the cast.


Edit: The translations exist on the wiki for a reason.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 08:41:51 PM
Though I dislike a lot of what the Touhou fandom does, in some ways I can't blame them and it's inevitable. The problem is that the two most popular games, EoSD and PCB don't actually feature very much dialogue. With Mima fandom obviously it's going to be even worse. People make their own assumptions as to what that character is like "Behind the scenes".

It's probably part of the reason ZUN did the Aya interviews. But something tells me it's still not enough. I think ZUN needs to write more short stories from the perspectives of the characters themselves, rather than the fairies or Rinnosuke so we can get a better idea how they think. What little dialogue we get in the games is often witty and inspiring. Some of it is generic anime/manga type shtick, but a lot of it is very nice. Compared to Curiosities of Lotus Asia for example though, it doesn't give a very complete or consistant view of the characters, and not everyone reads Curioisities of Lotus Asia, especially in western fandom.

Also, we remember characters for doing cool shit. Let's face it, Alice is a great character but how much cool shit does she do? Yes, doing stuff with dolls is pretty cool. But can you think of one awesome thing she's done with them exactly? In the games she just spams them around. In the comics and fictions she just sort of makes them.

What I've always wanted to see in Touhou was a greater sense of "epic". I hear SA which I've yet to play has more of a "sinister" feel which might help along these ends, more of a real threat. I think if we had a game where Keine threw herself in front of a ridiculous energy beam or some shit like that, people would learn to respect that character more and shed Womanly tears. On one hand the Touhou fandom is a little more "Hardcore" and less fluffy on some levels than for mainstream japanese media. But since he throws out the characters as near blank canvases you have to work hard to find out about, it negates this since it brings out the Kingdom Hearts Fangirl in everyone.

Of course you'll always get people like with the Final Fantasy fanbase, etc. that will abuse it, but they'll be an annex of the fandom, and more importantly, we won't need to fall back on fan works with a meatier storyline to begin with. But I think the Touhou fanbase is different to a lot of these other "Weeaboo" fandoms despite the overlap, in that the nature of the fandom is to fill in a lot of the blanks, as the meat of Touhou is scattered around between the games, short stories/books and comics, and debatedly in ZUN interviews and some other fan works too.

I know ZUN likes to "take it easy" with his games, but I do start to see a trend in both some of the PC98 games, and Mountain of Faith onwards where there's a sense of developing towards something.

The characters that are suggested at in Touhou games are just something special, the character design is absolutely top notch with tons of variety and we have all kinds of archetypes playing off another. That's why it's so popular. But I would think that while some people including perhaps ZUN himself would disagree, seeing a more story heavy game with a beginning, middle and end where things actually happen in it would really be a defining moment for Touhou, and it still has plenty of "Slice of Life" material to fall back on. Do more of both. More doujin writers actually need to come to ZUN and ask him for advice, it seems only respectful to me. That way we get more "official" stuff and all ZUN has to do is flick through it and correct a couple of things.

Put more story in the games. Put more of a sense of danger in the games. Put Rinnosuke in the games, why not, he's a great character, maybe a few more males too - again this is a huge part of why people do not take Touhou seriously, even though it's not it comes off as a silly lolicon, harem or yuri type affair.

Everytime I play a Touhou game, I get really riled up by the huge attacks and FUCK YES music. But at the end of the day, it doesn't quite go where it feels like it should and I think that is part of what results in a lot of the directionless, misrepresentative fiction.

Touhou is like the really awesome but shy goth girl in the corner who gets all dressed up and ready to make an impression but just ends up going home and drinking Tea listening to the Smiths moping that everyone thinks she's a lesbian. It needs more confidence as a series for people to take it series, and thought ZUN might not like that, it's probably the best way to "protect" his characters and ideas. A lot of people say the dude that does Higurashi does doujin stuff that's more "epic" in nature, but I just don't find the character designs etc. fit it quite as well as Touhou could.

If not ZUN, someone really should honour the ideas I've presented here and clear it by him.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Chainsaw Guitar on July 20, 2009, 08:42:37 PM
For once, I agree.

I've found myself disliking the fandom more and more partly due to how terrible they treat the characters.

Seconded. I really wish Meiling had a fan base that doesn't treat her like a pin cushion. I mean really, how can you say you're a Meiling fan when most of your fan art of her involves her getting stabbed by Sakuya?!. It just blows my mind... >.>

Speaking of Sakuya, she has got to have slapped with the fanon bat the worst by far. There, she is a horribly ill tempered bitch that goes into a knife flinging fury at the drop of a hat to anyone not named "Remilia Scarlet".
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 20, 2009, 09:16:34 PM
I think that by now people are probably more or less aware that I ABHOR Touhou fandom. Seriously hate it and find 97% of it disgusting bullshit and that the person that came up with that crap should be shot. Sure I have my own ideas and interpretations of how things look like they are behind the scenes and shit. But as a scenario I never really hid that I believe Gensokyou is completely fucked up and pretty much beyond saving. Rosie was saying that the character design is top notch, I disagree entirely, because I don't like things that don't make sense to me, and Gensokyou does NOT make sense. Some "rules of spell card duels" muttered quickly through concealing lips does not convince me. Characters are then stereotyped versions of japanese folklore and a lot of random stuff. Many of them are nice but I still bang on the thing that almost nothing of that makes any kind of sense: Why wouldn't Remilia simply murder Reimu in her sleep? Why is Suwako an apparent underling to Kanako when she's clearly more powerful, despite background story trying to say otherwhise... WHAT THE FUCK WITH EIENTEI?!?!? NONE of IN makes any sense and it is COMPLETELY disregardable!

I will agree with Rosie though on the lack of progress. There's not much change in the world with the exception of the appearance of new characters. Remilia brought about chaos in the earth: nothing happened but now there's SDM. Yuyuko stole all the winter and reimu got it back, end of story... and so and so forth. The truth is that one of the things Zun is NOT is a writer. If he were he wouldn't be able to tolerate that and we would have books and comics and complex sotrylines. But he simply isn't, he just likes to make killer lolis. And then the fandom gets obviously unsatisfied because ALL THE CHARACTERS ARE REALLY REALLY SHALLOW. And you can come with Yukari and Satori at me all you want... this IS a fact. They have some very promising backstory and it ends there. So fandom goes crazy and start trying to fill the holes, except the fandom is retarded and, thus, we get almost exclusively retarded content.

I enjoy touhou for it's challenging gameplay and overall beauty, both graphical, through amazing bullet patterns, and musical. Cause at these things Zun IS very good. But I think that it's a fact we have no choice but to accept that Touhou story is and will very probably forever be a lot of nonsense bullshit.


Finally, @Muffin: Dayousei is a normal generic fairy.

And Lastly:

Mima had a bloodied knife. Can'y compete with a ghost witch that claims she's a god, taught MARISA and walks around carrying a bloodied knife.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Hieda no Aya on July 20, 2009, 09:29:27 PM
The truth is that one of the things Zun is NOT is a writer. If he were he wouldn't be able to tolerate that and we would have books and comics and complex sotrylines.
Complex storylines I'll give you (besides all that Bougetsushou background stuff that didn't really end up coming into play and we can only hope to revisit unless the end of CiLR sorts it out)... but we don't have books and comics? News to me.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 20, 2009, 09:44:10 PM
We have some official stuff but it's not like it takes us anywhere.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Letty Whiterock on July 20, 2009, 10:04:40 PM
Minus the furries.
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6372/528357ranlarge.png)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: ?q on July 20, 2009, 10:11:15 PM
I seriously don't understand the Shinki fandom. Anyone wanna break it down for me what makes her so special? Or is the whole SHEENKEE4EVR thing just a meme?
Fixed.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Moerin on July 20, 2009, 10:13:09 PM
Bah, everyone knows all the cool kids want Yumemi to return.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: ?q on July 20, 2009, 10:15:12 PM
Bah, everyone knows all the cool kids want Yumemi to return.
Utsuho ate her.
(But before then, she was a goddess!)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 10:17:09 PM
I think that by now people are probably more or less aware that I ABHOR Touhou fandom. Seriously hate it and find 97% of it disgusting bullshit and that the person that came up with that crap should be shot. Sure I have my own ideas and interpretations of how things look like they are behind the scenes and shit. But as a scenario I never really hid that I believe Gensokyou is completely fucked up and pretty much beyond saving. Rosie was saying that the character design is top notch, I disagree entirely, because I don't like things that don't make sense to me, and Gensokyou does NOT make sense. Some "rules of spell card duels" muttered quickly through concealing lips does not convince me.

I don't think things like Spell Cards are meant to be understood literally. They're one of those weird fantasy maguffins.

And actually, you're wrong, Gensokyo is not beyond saving. ZUN has made some effort to develop a coherent world there but really not enough. With the right kind of retcons(Which happens in so very many comics anyway, they don't grow without this, and Touhou is closest in nature to a comic) the Touhou world could be really good.

Quote
Characters are then stereotyped versions of japanese folklore and a lot of random stuff. Many of them are nice but I still bang on the thing that almost nothing of that makes any kind of sense: Why wouldn't Remilia simply murder Reimu in her sleep? Why is Suwako an apparent underling to Kanako when she's clearly more powerful, despite background story trying to say otherwhise... WHAT THE FUCK WITH EIENTEI?!?!? NONE of IN makes any sense and it is COMPLETELY disregardable!

But this is part of what makes Touhou interesting for people, even if it in someways contradicts what I said. Have you read CoLA much out of interest? Rinnosuke is a bit like you, constantly complaining about the illogical practices of the Gensokyo girls. It's MEANT to be like that. Yeah, it's kind of a cop out, but I think it's actually well done enough to not be entirely so.

Quote
I will agree with Rosie though on the lack of progress. There's not much change in the world with the exception of the appearance of new characters. Remilia brought about chaos in the earth: nothing happened but now there's SDM. Yuyuko stole all the winter and reimu got it back, end of story... and so and so forth. The truth is that one of the things Zun is NOT is a writer.

You know, I disagree. I really, really enjoy the the actual Touhou writings. A lot of it reminds me of Terry Pratchett actually, especially the comments on Remilia and manipulating faith. I think ZUN has a much more coherent worldview than people give him credit for, it's just very hard to describe. It's got elements of both beng high concept and a muddle of sci-fi-ish reality fucking craziness.

Quote
If he were he wouldn't be able to tolerate that and we would have books and comics and complex sotrylines. But he simply isn't, he just likes to make killer lolis. And then the fandom gets obviously unsatisfied because ALL THE CHARACTERS ARE REALLY REALLY SHALLOW. And you can come with Yukari and Satori at me all you want... this IS a fact. They have some very promising backstory and it ends there. So fandom goes crazy and start trying to fill the holes, except the fandom is retarded and, thus, we get almost exclusively retarded content.

I think you're agreeing with me more than you realise. I think Touhou like a lot of things is similar to 60s Marvel, great ideas but everything needs to be fleshed out. And I think it can be. I mean even Stan Lee became a much more "mature" writer. I think ZUN can too and has already proven himself to an extent.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 20, 2009, 10:38:48 PM
Hmm.. maybe. I've seen little of the official stuff, only enough to be shooed away like a devil sprinkled with holy water. I'd like to think that Gensokyou has saving but it's hard to believe and though I'd like to I don't really believe in Zun. But I have a general posture of "let's wait and see". Who knows I might end up being positively surprised but as far as I can see right now? A senseless world that should've collapsed under random overpowered lolis all around. About Terry, I dunno... Discworld feels more honest in it's nonsense so it works really really well. With Gensokyou, I dunno...I don't get that "and this is how things work".
But well, let's wait and see... and graze
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 20, 2009, 10:48:00 PM
Funny, because if you look at the written works (CoLA in particular), you get a good view into the workings of Gensokyo that only a few people understand completely in the series. Touhou has no overarching plot, but it does have a fair bit of development of the world it takes place in.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Letty Whiterock on July 20, 2009, 11:07:54 PM
Vile, I love and fully support your signature.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 20, 2009, 11:17:37 PM
There is actually a lot of consistancy between the official printed works, with the one exception of Alice's character which probably causes a lot of confusion, in S&BND she stated she rarely leaves the house, doesn't put on shows, whereas in the the written works it says she does. I guess she evolved as a character though, which would be nice, but I'd like it outright stated instead of just vaguely implied by her presence in IN and SA.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 20, 2009, 11:35:27 PM
Quote
All this shit about Touhou Fandom
Which is partly why I hate fandom as a whole myself. Leave it to some nameless fairy to turn Aya into the whore of Gensokyo who is the waifu of the creator and seduced him to have her spot in a game centered around herself and her shrewd photography skills, or Suwako who has a googly eyed straw hat that just so happens to be some form of a sentinent parasite that actively controls the brain of it's wearer and makes us all see the host as some irrate, croaking little girl who's simply a victim of external parasitism. Alice is beyond saving even though she herself was a PC98 character once. I mean really...a tsundere, borderline yandere, who has a weak anus and thus leaks chronic diarrhea? Yeah, some one gimme a lead pipe cuz someone's about to have their head reworked in the manual fashion.

In that sense, I suppose I would have to withdraw from my notion of 'bringing PC98 characters back'. God help me if they got their hands on some of the more 'pure' characters of the series, Shinki, Mima, and Yuka probably got touched by fanon but not in the sense of everyone else (Shinki's ahoge, Yuka being a sadist, ect). Although I still say some explanations on certain things in the PC98 games, still couldn't hurt anything. I at least want some closure to things if anything else. Don't leave me hanging ZUN, that shit's not cool, ese.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima on July 20, 2009, 11:43:50 PM
Have you seen Yuka images lately, it's being defiled with shitty YukaxWriggle all the time now. Sure, let's get the most violent and anti-social character and pair them up with a stage 1 boss, makes total sense.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 20, 2009, 11:56:00 PM
Yuka X Wriggle makes some semblance of sense, since bugs pollinate flowers. And Yuka's not really anti-social, she just scares everybody away. She seems to like going on lectures about flowers to anyone who passes by after all.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima on July 21, 2009, 12:05:53 AM
(http://i28.tinypic.com/24zyy3k.png)

In before, hey wait but that's fandom
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 21, 2009, 12:20:36 AM
What is that from.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima on July 21, 2009, 12:30:22 AM
It's a screenshot from Lotus Land Story.  :V
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: WRATHIE_Beatrice on July 21, 2009, 12:34:25 AM
you guys have lost me..

and i wld prefer Alice to be playable. with Shinki as partner.
Ditto with Marisa, with Mima as partner.

Reimu can get old Gaps like she used to
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 21, 2009, 12:39:52 AM
I thought Yuka was supposed to be polite and refined except she had no regards at all in making use of violence and awing displays of power (THAT SHE HAS! Double Spark is undeniable).

For me wriggle was always phail. And a man, which would fix him/she/it about half the way to good. And the only char pairing I believe I can accept is MariAri.

Also: "Have you seen images of Yuka lately?"

Why are we sticking to the euphemisms? Let's go straight to rock bottom and look at Tenshi. Sure, she's a new character, but  believe no one better demonstrates how fast and how deep a character can fall in the pit of detestable fandom. (No Aya, not even you can top that)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Mima-sama on July 21, 2009, 12:41:10 AM
Bah, everyone knows all the cool kids want Yumemi to return.

I'm seriously considering making a Yumemi costume considering it has never been done to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: WRATHIE_Beatrice on July 21, 2009, 12:41:46 AM
Ahh tenshi, good times.
i think it was due to the fact she was labelled as a dragon and turns out to be a spoilt bitch that pushed the fans over the edge and label her as a masochist.

Still, it's funny =D
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 21, 2009, 12:47:28 AM
I find her to be kinda pathetic and utterly unimportant. But yeah... I don't have to like her to RAGE at what happened to her
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 21, 2009, 01:48:36 AM
Your first mistake was expecting the mechanics of a magical fantasy world to make sense.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 21, 2009, 02:32:48 AM
Apply Magic Logic.

Magic Logic: Skip thing you don't understand and pretend it work.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 21, 2009, 02:56:30 AM
Yuka X Wriggle makes some semblance of sense, since bugs pollinate flowers.
This pairing is a prime example of one of those ships that fandom fandumb makes just because one things similar to another (Koishi/Flandre is also one of these, so is Alice/Medicine). Truthfully speaking, the notion of 'bugs pollinating flowers' is invalid to what really makes a pairing legit. If it was hinted that the two were fond on each other (which it isn't) then it would be a little more believeable. Otherwise, the aspect of Wriggle pollinating Yuka just because she's a flower is completely bogus.


I thought Yuka was supposed to be polite and refined except she had no regards at all in making use of violence and awing displays of power (THAT SHE HAS! Double Spark is undeniable).
Quote from: Akyu
The stronger the youkai, the more polite they normally are.
Quote from: Akyu again
Luckily, she isn't interested in boring battles, so as long as you don't attack, set up a trap, or set her flower field on fire, you should be fine.

As it is stated above.

So truthfully, Yuka would only fight you if you fucked with her flowers or provoked her in someway. If you say 'Hi' to her on the streets (given if you see her there), she'll say 'hi' back.

Whether or not she's actually crazy is left in the air like everything else.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Gpop on July 21, 2009, 03:18:48 AM
I just assume that she's polite and won't fuck with you if you don't fuck with her, as stated.

But if you ever do fuck with her, then she becomes the sadistic bitch. Especially when you fuck with her sunflower field (or with her in general) =/.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 21, 2009, 03:32:02 AM
If you water her flower, she will be very friendly.  :V
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 21, 2009, 03:44:56 AM
If you water her flower, she will be very friendly.  :V
(http://www.touhouproject.com/others/src/12481158427.png)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 21, 2009, 03:59:00 AM
...let's stick with this version.
(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/663/heh1.gif)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shadowbringer on July 21, 2009, 06:11:44 AM
What I've always wanted to see in Touhou was a greater sense of "epic". I hear SA which I've yet to play has more of a "sinister" feel which might help along these ends, more of a real threat. I think if we had a game where Keine threw herself in front of a ridiculous energy beam or some shit like that, people would learn to respect that character more and shed Womanly tears. On one hand the Touhou fandom is a little more "Hardcore" and less fluffy on some levels than for mainstream japanese media. But since he throws out the characters as near blank canvases you have to work hard to find out about, it negates this since it brings out the Kingdom Hearts Fangirl in everyone.

With this, the series wouldn't be as interesting for girls as it is now, with its friendly setting featuring girls playing around Gensokyo (while showing the places such as the SDM, Eientei, that common people could otherwise have lots of trouble travelling to), friendly versions of japanese mythological beings, non-lethal shmup action (okay.. most girls don't like action or shmups :p) and relaxing endings.

I think that by now people are probably more or less aware that I ABHOR Touhou fandom. Seriously hate it and find 97% of it disgusting bullshit and that the person that came up with that crap should be shot. Sure I have my own ideas and interpretations of how things look like they are behind the scenes and shit. But as a scenario I never really hid that I believe Gensokyou is completely fucked up and pretty much beyond saving. Rosie was saying that the character design is top notch, I disagree entirely, because I don't like things that don't make sense to me, and Gensokyou does NOT make sense. Some "rules of spell card duels" muttered quickly through concealing lips does not convince me. Characters are then stereotyped versions of japanese folklore and a lot of random stuff. Many of them are nice but I still bang on the thing that almost nothing of that makes any kind of sense: Why wouldn't Remilia simply murder Reimu in her sleep? Why is Suwako an apparent underling to Kanako when she's clearly more powerful, despite background story trying to say otherwhise... WHAT THE FUCK WITH EIENTEI?!?!? NONE of IN makes any sense and it is COMPLETELY disregardable!

Q: Why wouldn't Remilia simply murder Reimu in her sleep?
A: Because she doesn't need to. Nor does Reimu need to use an infinite version of her Last Word on her. Threads about how the Touhou characters would fare against each other while using their abilities to their full extents have led to a simple conclusion (for most cases): The one that attacks first (or snipes first), wins.
Q: Why is Suwako an apparent underling to Kanako when she's clearly more powerful, despite background story trying to say otherwhise...
A: If by "clearly more powerful" you mean her being an Extra Stage boss, while Kanako is a Final Stage boss, this fact alone doesn't say much, compared to how it's really stated that Flandre is more powerful than Remilia. Imho, Extra Stages are harder than Normal runs, but less hard than Lunatic runs (can't say the same for PoFV, I think), so, basing a boss' toughness on what stage she appears in is dependent of what difficulty you're using for comparison.
Q: WHAT THE FUCK WITH EIENTEI?!?!? NONE of IN makes any sense and it is COMPLETELY disregardable!
A: What exactly doesn't make sense? Regarding the game itself (and not the plot), ZUN has been thinking of it before EoSD ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperishable_Night#Development ), so I have to disagree with it being disregardable (especially for the game's features and Reimu/Marisa being 4th stage bosses -- which I found later to be a nostalgia-inducing version of the same stage boss fight in LLS)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 21, 2009, 12:21:43 PM
1-> Yeah, pretty much. But it still doesn't make sense that someone as cruel and vengeful as Remilia supposedly is wouldn't do it anyway. She looks the type that makes her own rules, whatever the game.

2->Yeeaah, maybe I overstepped on that one. But I never really felt that Kanako looked like someone that could kick Suwako's ass, or that the very own Suwako ever made justice to her story as Misaguji-sama.

3-> I'll agree on the Reimu/Marisa fight but the more I look at IN, the more I feel like none of the characters there have actually anything to do with the rest of the world. Remilia, Yuyuko, Utsuho and even Kanako were real threats and have their own place in the plot for that. Kaguya is just... there... and then everyone decides to kick her ass because she looked at them funny. And after the game they're just there once again. It feels like those people are there but don't really have a place in the whole setting, with the possible exception of Keine (also: Yes, I know they're aliens, but Morya Shrine is as well and doesn't feel that way)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on July 21, 2009, 04:27:48 PM
Well, since Kaguya et al stole the full moon, which is apparently problematic enough that they were willing to stop the night from ending to deal with that ...
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Helepolis on July 21, 2009, 04:45:32 PM
I think Vile's Lasagna's post made this thread semi-win. Seriously if you strip down all fanon and canon what is left over: Awesome music + amazing patterns + Loli girls. The end.

I don't think also ZUN intends to make Gensokyo a complex deep going story. Else he would explain first something more regarding Reimu and the Hakurei Border. I think he wants people to create their own fantasies. Maybe that is what makes the fandom for this extremely large. Psychological, people tend to believe what they want to believe when they know little. I don't know if ZUN does this intentionally or just happened by accident.

Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on July 21, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
True. Remember the words of dark-Tewi:

(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w88/KimikoMuffin/DarkTewi.jpg)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Helepolis on July 21, 2009, 04:57:13 PM
Name of doujin/comic or w/e it is please =X
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Bias Bus on July 21, 2009, 05:16:35 PM
Little brown bunnies are the best~
You didn't see shit!

But, Chocolate Tewi's relevant to my interests, regardless.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on July 21, 2009, 05:55:58 PM
Name of doujin/comic or w/e it is please =X
[Maruchira] Why Did She Leave The Miniature Garden? Oni's Out (http://gallery.gensokyo.org/archive/Maruchira_-_Why_did_she_leave_the_miniature_garden.zip)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shadowbringer on July 21, 2009, 11:51:22 PM
1-> Yeah, pretty much. But it still doesn't make sense that someone as cruel and vengeful as Remilia supposedly is wouldn't do it anyway. She looks the type that makes her own rules, whatever the game.

2->Yeeaah, maybe I overstepped on that one. But I never really felt that Kanako looked like someone that could kick Suwako's ass, or that the very own Suwako ever made justice to her story as Misaguji-sama.

3-> I'll agree on the Reimu/Marisa fight but the more I look at IN, the more I feel like none of the characters there have actually anything to do with the rest of the world. Remilia, Yuyuko, Utsuho and even Kanako were real threats and have their own place in the plot for that. Kaguya is just... there... and then everyone decides to kick her ass because she looked at them funny. And after the game they're just there once again. It feels like those people are there but don't really have a place in the whole setting, with the possible exception of Keine (also: Yes, I know they're aliens, but Morya Shrine is as well and doesn't feel that way)
1) cruel and vengeful? After being defeated, Remilia visits Reimu (as shown in both endings, and mentioned in EoSD's Extra Stage), and canon *coughSSiBcough* tell us that Remilia is overconfident, prefers melee to danmaku (shown in SSiB as well) and yes, does whatever she wants to at the moment.

2) this can mean two things: one, Kanako won a fight against Suwako (by merit of superior strategy, or power alone, or adverse conditions regarding Suwako's abilities or the army of the place she was running, etc.. dunno.) one time, but may either lose or win again in a future fight (though in the first time, it seems that there were armies involved, and Kanako has crippled Suwako's army's weaponry by making them rust). Or two, Kanako has a large enough advantage over Suwako, meaning that this matchup is really in favor to Kanako (thus meaning that Kanako, due to such overwhelming advantages, has considerably better chances of winning, and/or that in a series of direct duels she would have more wins than losses). Not that Suwako is to Kanako what Ran is to Yukari; one example that I could use for comparison is Suwako being a shark, and Kanako, a lion. And they're both on land.
(since I mentioned Kanako interfering with Suwako's army and later having acquired the Moriya Shrine by "right of conquest", Kanako's abilities may, or may not be more focused on support rather than single, direct combat and thus, giving way for a third option. If this is the case, Suwako could even have a favorable matchup and not wanting to reclaim the shrine due to lack of interest. Anyways, I don't have such answers, but so far I don't have reasons to deny that Kanako had the ability to defeat Suwako back then, whatever her means and/or conditions were)

3) the plot of IN mentions that the youkai are affected negatively if the moon doesn't grow fully (which it doesn't do, because Eirin has replaced Gensokyo's moon with a fake one that doesn't grow full because this is the requirement needed for lunarians to travel to the Earth, and Kaguya and gang are willing to avoid them. They just didn't knew that Gensokyo is hidden well enough for the need to cut out the lunarians' way from the Moon to the Earth, however Eirin was right about taking safety measures; even after IN, moon viewing ceremonies are held in Eientei in order to magically avoid the lunarians' eyes, or ears..); most humans wouldn't notice, but the youkai do, and the youkai and humans are mutually important in Gensokyo (since if they don't fight themselves, their powers diminish and they become more vulnerable to outside threats.. such as Kanako -- even though she attempted to conquer the Hakurei Shrine because she cared for the balance of power based on faith. All your faith are belong to us.).
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Chronojet ⚙ Dragon on July 22, 2009, 06:00:11 AM
In Touhou Youyoumu, Alice returned in Stage 3. In Touhou Kaeidzuka, Yuuka returned as a playable character.

.... Nah. I don't think ZUN's really forgotten about his earlier games.






I think.

Come back, Mima!

Please!
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Helepolis on July 22, 2009, 08:19:57 AM
Oh boy, seems like people forgetting Alice was playable in IN, you lot are only mentioning her in PCB. No explanation why she teams up with Marisa.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 22, 2009, 09:28:30 AM
Oh boy, seems like people forgetting Alice was playable in IN, you lot are only mentioning her in PCB. No explanation why she teams up with Marisa.

They're neighbours.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: WRATHIE_Beatrice on July 22, 2009, 01:04:16 PM
and witches.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 22, 2009, 01:07:30 PM
I wouldn't call Alice a witch. She's a magician. No witchy hat or using mushrooms as spell components, etc.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Gpop on July 22, 2009, 01:56:09 PM
Oh boy, seems like people forgetting Alice was playable in IN, you lot are only mentioning her in PCB. No explanation why she teams up with Marisa.

And even fewer people remembers that she was playable in both IaMP and SWR, and helps out Marisa is SA =/.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shadowbringer on July 22, 2009, 02:24:03 PM
Oh boy, seems like people forgetting Alice was playable in IN, you lot are only mentioning her in PCB. No explanation why she teams up with Marisa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperishable_Night#Development
Quote
ZUN found it particularly difficult to find a youkai character to pair Reimu and Marisa with. In the end, ZUN picked Alice from the pre-Windows games to be Marisa's partner since he thought Alice was a "Youkai version of Marisa", and thus reintroduced her in Perfect Cherry Blossom. Yukari was selected to be Reimu's partner because their personalities were similar and would make sense to be together.[2]
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 22, 2009, 03:18:40 PM
Quote
He turned to Imperishable Night because he felt the game did not provide much room for character development despite having such a rich cast.
He care about character development, important quote.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 22, 2009, 04:49:11 PM
And blondes.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on July 22, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
Someday, just like the CH(Ex)N (http://dizzy.pestermom.com/?p=chexn) experiment, I'm going to make an ongoing updated breakdown of the Touhou cast by hair-color.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Helepolis on July 22, 2009, 06:29:59 PM
And even fewer people remembers that she was playable in both IaMP and SWR, and helps out Marisa is SA =/.
I have mixed feelings about IaMP and SWR. Can't really explain =S
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 22, 2009, 06:41:27 PM
Someday, just like the CH(Ex)N (http://dizzy.pestermom.com/?p=chexn) experiment, I'm going to make an ongoing updated breakdown of the Touhou cast by hair-color.

To many blondes and err... greens. Touhou has a weird distribution of hair colour.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Serp on July 23, 2009, 12:48:05 AM
To many blondes and err... greens. Touhou has a weird distribution of hair colour.

There is no such concept as "too many greens."
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: WRATHIE_Beatrice on July 23, 2009, 01:27:10 AM
what Serp said

and i want more purple/pink hair chars
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 23, 2009, 02:08:09 AM
what Serp said

and i want more purple/pink hair chars

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3986/meira.png)

(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1517/msstage12crew.jpg)

In other news, PC-98 needs more fanart above all else. I could not find ANY art better than the two I just posted for Meira and Sara. Isn't it sad Sara? ;_;
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: WRATHIE_Beatrice on July 23, 2009, 02:10:04 AM
move on, donut..
i said MORE
not current.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 23, 2009, 02:11:43 AM
Touhou has a weird distribution of hair colour.

This is the most bizarre complaint I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 23, 2009, 02:12:23 AM
Zun will cover all colors!
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shadowbringer on July 23, 2009, 02:41:38 AM
ZUN will include the colors that lie beyond the visual spectrum for awesomeness; only the wise people will be able to see them..

now, for Meira and Sara:
http://danbooru.donmai.us/post?tags=meira&searchDefault=Search
http://www.pixiv.net/search.php?word=%E6%98%8E%E7%BE%85&s_mode=s_tag

http://danbooru.donmai.us/post?tags=sara&searchDefault=Search
http://www.pixiv.net/search.php?word=%E3%82%B5%E3%83%A9+%E6%9D%B1%E6%96%B9&s_mode=s_tag

edit: I should mention that these links may not be work-safe, as they're using search engines within image databases
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shinyjam on July 23, 2009, 03:00:15 AM
Alcohol reveal the invisible colors!! ;D
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on July 23, 2009, 04:04:12 AM
ZUN will include the colors that lie beyond the visual spectrum for awesomeness; only the wise people will be able to see them...

UFO's final boss will have... strangely coloured hair, unlike any the world has ever seen. Only Yukari will be able to look upon it and recognize it; everyone else will only be able to call it "a colour out of space".
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shadowbringer on July 23, 2009, 08:11:35 PM
next step: Kourin will find a new artifact; a strange, special clothing made of mystical, very thin gold fibers, said in some legends to have been crafted by humble, skilled artisans for an emperor. Such clothing has now acquired the property of greatly amplifying one's inner abilities/powers, but it also alter the personality of its user.

Kourin somehow finds it, considering that it's seemingly near-invisible to him and, having difficulties trying to understand its origins, tries it, when he notices an increase in his physical strength..
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Alice Fact on July 24, 2009, 03:47:43 PM
ZUN "forgets" the games before the game he is currently working on. Or at least, he's done so lately.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 24, 2009, 04:02:52 PM
ZUN "forgets" the games before the game he is currently working on. Or at least, he's done so lately.

You mean by taking a boss from Touhou 10 and making her playable in Touhou 12?

(EDIT: The above statement was intended to be irony, i.e., playable Sanae in Touhou12 is an example of the opposite of lgb's remark. This message brought to you by the Society for the Irony Impaired.)
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dollywitch on July 24, 2009, 08:43:28 PM
You know I'm really getting tired of these ZUN is so crap posts. I was really impressed with the level of consistancy between the written works and I think people are being dicks over stuff that on the grand scale of continuity are actually relatively minor. I don't think it's down to a genuine view or opinion just misdirected cynicism you get in a lot of fandom nowadays. For what he does, he does well.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 24, 2009, 10:27:09 PM
You know I'm really getting tired of these ZUN is so crap posts. I was really impressed with the level of consistancy between the written works and I think people are being dicks over stuff that on the grand scale of continuity are actually relatively minor. I don't think it's down to a genuine view or opinion just misdirected cynicism you get in a lot of fandom nowadays. For what he does, he does well.

Where's my Marisa thread again?
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Deity Link on July 29, 2009, 12:39:49 AM
Well, ZUN said that Mima won't come back until the scenario give her a chance.
I mean, Yuka came back in TH09 because it was about flowers, that's all.

There's one thing for sure, Mima is the key to understand the timeline between TH05 and TH06.

Maybe that's the reason why ZUN didn't bring her back.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 29, 2009, 01:03:56 AM
Well, ZUN said that Mima won't come back until the scenario give her a chance.
I mean, Yuka came back in TH09 because it was about flowers, that's all.

There's one thing for sure, Mima is the key to understand the timeline between TH05 and TH06.

Maybe that's the reason why ZUN didn't bring her back.

Says who? Mima actually was very insignificant to the plot by MS. Then again, the same could be said for Yuka.

Personally, I don't care if Mima ever comes back. There are better PC-98 characters to moan about never returning anyway.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Deity Link on July 29, 2009, 01:10:12 AM
yup, like Sariel (my PC98 favourite)
However, ZUN said that TH01 was only a test game, so it's hopeless.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 29, 2009, 08:54:37 AM
It'll be awesome when UFO 1.0 comes out and not only is Mima not there but the Five Magic Stones are the Stage 4 boss. Then again, Mima's return would at least stop the whinebitchmoan chorus about her absense. Jesus, it's like they think ZUN is willfully holding her back just to personally torment them. Not talking about all Mima fans here, mind you; just the ones who seem to think they're owed her return.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 29, 2009, 09:29:10 AM
Mima is awesome. But I do miss the tongue-ghosts a lot more than anything else from PC-98
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Tengukami on July 29, 2009, 09:50:52 AM
Mima is awesome. But I do miss the tongue-ghosts a lot more than anything else from PC-98

The tongue-ghosts made the games impossible for me to play at first because I was laughing too hard. I adore them.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Cadmas on July 29, 2009, 09:53:51 AM
Prays to Moriya, Tongue ghost comes back as a loli in ufo.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 29, 2009, 09:59:30 AM
Prays to Moriya, Tongue ghost comes back as a loli in ufo.

Nah, it wouldn't be the same as a loli. It would just phail
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Letty Whiterock on July 29, 2009, 11:58:40 AM
The tongue-ghosts made the games impossible for me to play at first because I was laughing too hard. I adore them.
Someone didn't play enough Kiki Kaikai.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: nintendonut888 on July 29, 2009, 08:57:18 PM
Mima is awesome. But I do miss the tongue-ghosts a lot more than anything else from PC-98

The tongue-ghosts made the games impossible for me to play at first because I was laughing too hard. I adore them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEsD_ICJ6WA
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Vile Lasagna on July 29, 2009, 10:38:34 PM
I've found true love!
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: shadowbringer on July 30, 2009, 01:51:37 AM
Having seen this video (even though I've played the PC-98 games before.. I had this idea just now), I thought: People should do an Armed Police Batrider game for Touhou. And this should be the first stage. (or last one, if you're thinking about Touhoupachi Daioujou)

And it would have guest bosses/playable characters and a boss rush mode, too.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: wailofthebanshee on July 30, 2009, 01:21:53 PM
You just know he's gonna resurrect yumemi in UFO :V
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin on July 30, 2009, 04:55:44 PM
You just know he's gonna resurrect yumemi in UFO :V
No you don't.
Title: Re: Has ZUN forgotten about the PC98 games?
Post by: PN on August 03, 2009, 01:15:29 AM
This is a bit of nitpicking, but just what is the difference between retcon and reboot of a series?

A reboot is like a full retelling of a story.  Reboots are a type of retcon, but you can also achieve retcon without having to retell an entire story (ie. Episodes 1, 2 and 3 of Star Wars retcon some of the story of Episodes 4, 5 and 6, but do not reboot those episodes).  Some people also consider fleshing out of details of an established work with a new one as retconning (for example, Curiosities of Lotus Asia, or Bohemian Archive of Japanese Red can be considered retconning the games, as they expand on what was already presented).

Didn't see anyone answer this, so figured I might as well chime in, and I'm bored.