Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87

[Clarste]

To people who know the plot clearly: do all the characters actually fit into the plot properly and not look like they are forced into it for the sake of filling up the roster without having to create too many new characters?

Most of them are irrelevant. The religious cast has this little mini-conflict about how to handle the orbs, but that only shows up in Miko and Byakuren's routes so Ichirin and Futo are still irrelevant (they were irrelevant in HM too, so nothing changes there). People like Mokou, Shinmyoumaru, and Ichirin are just gathering the orbs without much thought. Some of the others just have their own problems that are tangentially related to the orbs. Overall, I'd say the plot is closer to SWR style than the other games: a bunch of characters doing their own thing and one major plot thread you can follow by doing certain people's routes.

I'd say the only necessary plot-related people are Reimu, Marisa, Kasen, Miko, Mamizou, and Sumireko.

[monhan]

Played a bunch of matches last night. Everyone I forced to play with me liked it, even people who hated HM.

We have a few questions though.

-What is the "future" stat on each super?

It indicates how long is the duration, and the effect of that particular spellcard. Whether it's the attack hitbox, or the long startup and recovery.
This is why SCs like Marisa's Blazing Star, Byakuren's Three Thousand Worlds, Kasen's Dragon Growl, Sumireko's 3D Printed Gun, and all of Mokou's have low Future stats. They only stay on screen for a short time.
In contrast, Reimu's Yin Yang Ball, Marisa's Satellite Illusion, Kasen's  Hawk Beacon, Byakuren's Mahavairocana and Buddha Chop(due to the slooow startup), Futo's Bad Omen, Nitori's Bubble Gun, and Shinmyoumaru's Issun Boshi all have high Future stats because they stay active for quite a long time.

And about the LW, I find it quite a shame that you can only do it on the middle ground. I think that's one thing that I'd like to change.

Unrelated, but I found a neat trick.
Apparently, Byakuren can activate her Mahavairocana counter without being attacked by the opponent. Just throw a Vajra bullet, and try to catch it while you prepare the counter. The bounced Vajra actually counts as a hit, which activates the SC counter. This is certainly exploitable. Probably gonna use it more now.
Here's a video of a guy who shows how it's done.

Most of them are irrelevant. The religious cast has this little mini-conflict about how to handle the orbs, but that only shows up in Miko and Byakuren's routes so Ichirin and Futo are still irrelevant (they were irrelevant in HM too, so nothing changes there). People like Mokou, Shinmyoumaru, and Ichirin are just gathering the orbs without much thought. Some of the others just have their own problems that are tangentially related to the orbs. Overall, I'd say the plot is closer to SWR style than the other games: a bunch of characters doing their own thing and one major plot thread you can follow by doing certain people's routes.

I'd say the only necessary plot-related people are Reimu, Marisa, Kasen, Miko, Mamizou, and Sumireko.

Yeah, if it's specifically dealing with Sumireko, then only some of them did much. But if it's about how to handle the ball and knowing the nature of this Urban Legend phenomenon, then the others also plays their part. Even though those that only did their own stuff may not have a lot of impact to the incident, they still can mean something to themselves depending on how you interpret it. I especially liked how Koishi's now confirmed to return to Chireiden and interact with Satori. That's a great progress!

[Patorikku]

-What is the "future" stat on each super?

From what I can determine from each of the spellcards with a high future stat opposed to the lower future stats, it's mostly how long the spellcard is active when it's used, or how long it takes for the effect of the card to take place. Spellcards with next to immediate effects have a much lower future stat, while something like Futo's curse bubble thing or Marisa's Orreries Sun that dishes its effect much later or can take on their intended effect longer will have a larger future stat.

Nevermind, listen to the guy above me. Instead, lemme offer some of my Week 1 knowledge on playing Mokou for all y'all fellow Mokou players.

- When in occult mode, you can use 6B > 6CCC as either a combo of its own, as part of any combo that already uses that sequence, or as a competent blockstring after omitting the second last and/or last 6C. Occult mode gives 6B a piercing effect that allows the large fireball projectile to blast right past the opponent after its initial hit and continue to explode into the firebirds as it would if it hadn't immediately connected outside of occult mode. 6C can help abuse this by keeping the opponent level enough to get struck with all of 6B's projectiles while still smacking them silly.

- j.5A is a fantastic addition to most midscreen jab combos, and will typically add anywhere from 300 - 500 damage to the overall combo. For example, a BnB discovered by seodah of r/touhou, both with and without j.5A:

Code: [Select]

(4)AAA > 2A > 2B > 3jc > j.5A > j.6A > 4C - Stun 100 - Damage 2458
j.5A > (4)AAA > 2A > 2B > 3jc > j.5A > j.6A > 4C - Stun 100 - Damage 2821The latter's damage will also reach 3.6k damage when the full string is done in occult mode.

- Mokou's third spellcard, the amulet spread, is basically a suppression attack. Its chip damage is enormous in comparison to most other spellcards whereas its regular damage leaves a lot to be desired, but it can also come out much more often than Mokou's other spellcards. If your opponent is recovering from a combo or is stuck in a blockstring, use this card as oki or to extend the blockstring to rack up chip damage in the corner. Be advised, though, that the amulets will do white damage to Mokou if she touches them.

- If you have a combo that uses the 6B > 6CCC string in occult mode, declare a spellcard right as the first 6C hit comes out, and dish out another 6B > 6CCC string. Hell, just do that combo raw if you get a 6B hit confirm. The damage from an occult mode 6B > 6C > D > 6B > 6CCC combo is 3.7k with full stun. As well, below is an actual combo, both with and without j.5A using said declare cancel. Please note the combo can be done without the declare cancel by simply continuing the 6C string beforehand. Please also note that the third 6C hit will always whiff in occult, which makes the combo unsafe, but it still remains severely damaging.

Code: [Select]

(4)AAA > 8A(1) > 6B > 6C > D > 6B > 6CC(C) - Damage 2546/3732
j.5A > (4)AAA > 8A(1) > 6B > 6C > D > 6B > 6CC(C) - Damage 2960/4296
EDIT: Tildes were replaced with proper notation because I am a derp.

[Failure McFailFace]

Jesus, I know the terminology for the fighting game moves, but that is rather complex. Explain like I'm five, for the noobs and I?

[Hawk]

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Notation

That should be clear, however we seem to be using ~ not as a piano motion, but rather as a "this is your last hit of your autocombo".  I'm not quite sure why, but hey.

[the old guy]

Lie? What lie?

I'd be more surprised if Yukari ISN'T feeding the youkai in gensokyo via outside world humans. Those Youkais need to eat too, y'know.

I wasn't saying that Youkai eating humans and Yukari feeding them was a lie, that is OBVIOUSLY canon, i was talking about when Yukari implied to Kasen in that chapter that humans are purely in Gensokyo for the benefit of the Youkai ("Youkai have to get their food from somewhere") and that the Zashiki-Warashi were spying on the human village to make them easier to eat or something like that, i think that was a "Bare-Faced Half-Lie" for reasons that Tiamat (This forums Grand Scholar of Anything Yukari Yakumo.) and others explained well in this thread (Basically, Yukari was trying make Kasen act more "Youkai-like").

There is also the factor that Yukari sort of stated that the Yashiki-Warashi were spying on the human village because it makes them easier to hunt, which is think is a OUT RIGHT LIE because it is canonically stated that the village is under protection from the Youkai.

THAT is what i was talking about.
(Personally i think they were spying on the village to make sure that the Human's don't start a revolution against the Youkai and try to destroy Gensokyo, like the Enigmatic History Society wants to do.)

[Patorikku]

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Notation

That should be clear, however we seem to be using ~ not as a piano motion, but rather as a "this is your last hit of your autocombo".  I'm not quite sure why, but hey.

I think I got that from the combo listings for UNIEL's Byakuya on mizuumi. Is that what's going on with those? No wonder I'm always dropping those combos. :V

Yeah, I'll edit that post up and put in some proper notation to avoid confusion. My bad.  :ohdear:

[Hawk]

I dunno, I've seen ~ be used both for pianoing and for longer-than-normal delays.  The FGC doesn't seem too consistent about it.

But either way, the autocombo finisher is neither of those.  :3

[Sagus]

There is also the factor that Yukari sort of stated that the Yashiki-Warashi were spying on the human village because it makes them easier to hunt

What? That's not at all the reason she gave as to why the Yashiki-Warashi's are there.

(Personally i think they were spying on the village to make sure that the Human's don't start a revolution against the Youkai and try to destroy Gensokyo, like the Enigmatic History Society wants to do.)

THIS is exactly why they are there. As Yukari herself says on page 19:

[The Yashiki-Warashi] watch over the Human Village. In other words, spies. When humans gather, they start thinking of doing bad things. So we need to watch over them to see that those kinds of people don't appear.

That comment about filling youkai stomachs most likely refers to humans from the outside world, considering that Yukari then mentions that the Yashiki-Warashis being called on the Outside takes precedence over their jobs of watching the village. Kasen muses on that and seems to be on track to figure out what exactly Yukari is going for, but then Yukari stops her and says the "getting enough food to fill the stomachs of its youkai from somewhere" line.

Nowhere in this is implied that the humans from the village are possible targets as a food source.

[cuc]

Unrelated, but I found a neat trick.
Apparently, Byakuren can activate her Mahavairocana counter without being attacked by the opponent. Just throw a Vajra bullet, and try to catch it while you prepare the counter. The bounced Vajra actually counts as a hit, which activates the SC counter. This is certainly exploitable. Probably gonna use it more now.
Here's a video of a guy who shows how it's done.

Unabara noticed people's discovery of the combo. It seems the combo is intentionally designed.

[monhan]

Unabara noticed people's discovery of the combo. It seems the combo is intentionally designed.

Yeah, I read his tweet too. Hopefully it is intentional and not a bug, 'cause I'm loving it

[Gpop]

Okay, after a few days of playing this game on netplay on stuff, I can safely assume that I don't like this game. I would go into detail but I'll do that tomorrow. I got work, but atm the short version is that the weather ball occult system is almost as bad as I feared.

[Sahuaro]

How Gpop? I feel they are less instrusive than SWR weathers were... still not great but deffnly less chaotic

[monhan]

Okay, after a few days of playing this game on netplay on stuff, I can safely assume that I don't like this game. I would go into detail but I'll do that tomorrow. I got work, but atm the short version is that the weather ball occult system is almost as bad as I feared.

I can see that they may cause slight annoyance, but the most distracting one is when you try to chase the ball instead. Not the effects.
Still, I'd like to hear you elaborate on that and hear your reasons.

[game2011]

It's pretty much the exact same thing that happened between IaMP and SWR. It was to be expected.

10.5 at least added one extra character, so it wouldn't have hurt to add one more to this game.  Adding only four feels like a step back.

I just feel like there are some other characters that can take advantage of urban legends more, like Kogasa (constantly trying to surprise people), Aya (gatherer of news and rumors), Sanae (urban legends are more well known in the outside world), etc.  It feels like a wasted potential to not use such characters.

[Starxsword]

If we are talking about Urban Legends, the characters fit them well. But that is unrelated to the plot.

I also feel that Sanae should have been in this game, since High School mysteries is really right in her field. And her interaction with Sumireko would be interesting. But I was almost certain she won't be, because she is an existing fighting game character.

That said, the character interactions are interesting. You get to see more character associations than in the past games. At least that is how it feels like.

[game2011]

If we are talking about Urban Legends, the characters fit them well. But that is unrelated to the plot.

I also feel that Sanae should have been in this game, since High School mysteries is really right in her field. And her interaction with Sumireko would be interesting. But I was almost certain she won't be, because she is an existing fighting game character.

That said, the character interactions are interesting. You get to see more character associations than in the past games. At least that is how it feels like.

I feel like some of the current urban legends can fit well with some other characters.  For example, Aya goes well with the Turbo Granny one, since speed is her thing.  Sekibanki goes well with the red and blue toilet papers one, since that one involves head-related fatalities, and she's all about "losing her head." Her cape is even red and blue.  Hasshaku can go along with Sanae, since it involves buses, and being from the outside world...  Yeah...

Don't get why Ichirin's UL is Hasshaku and also Marisa's UL, though...

Let's hope there will be a 12.3-style expansion pack that satisfies things.

[Darkness1]

I always thought Nue would be a new character for this game, since she even got spellcards based on the urban legends.

Also, this one might be a "dumb" question, but for someone not too familiar with all the characters, what is the symbolism for the newer Mamizou transformations? Like Sukuna being an oyster, Sumireko a ghost etc.

[game2011]

I always thought Nue would be a new character for this game, since she even got spellcards based on the urban legends.

Also, this one might be a "dumb" question, but for someone not too familiar with all the characters, what is the symbolism for the newer Mamizou transformations? Like Sukuna being an oyster, Sumireko a ghost etc.

I don't think there's really a symbolism for the transformations in the first place.  Some have, but not all.  Some like Byakuren becoming a mouse, Koishi becoming a cat, and Futo becoming a chicken are pretty random.

[Clarste]

Shinmyoumaru being an oyster is obviously just because she's sitting in a bowl.

Regarding who would make better use of urban legends, I think that's completely missing the point. The story isn't about who can use urban legends the best. And HM wasn't about the religious war either.

[Leon゠Helsing]

In fact, I don't think Mokou even uses one at all, she just does her own thing.

[Tomion]

In fact, I don't think Mokou even uses one at all, she just does her own thing.

Some girls just wanna see the world burns.

[Lightseeker]

For example, Aya goes well with the Turbo Granny one, since speed is her thing.

The "granny" part doesn't fit her though.

In fact, I don't think Mokou even uses one at all, she just does her own thing.

She does. Her urban legend is based on spontaneous human combustion.

[Leon゠Helsing]

She does. Her urban legend is based on spontaneous human combustion.

Huh, never considered that. It seemed a bit too general for me.

[PK]

Don't get why Ichirin's UL is Hasshaku and also Marisa's UL, though...

Ichirin's Urban Legend is that she uses "very tall youkai" (the urban legend of every character is described in their game title).
This is because Hasshaku-sama's trait is that she's really tall, and nyuudou like Unzan also become gradually taller as humans try to see their face (hence his named ability of growing in size at will), usually killing them when they succeed. In DS is explained that they do this because they are really shy and don't like their face being seen.

[game2011]

The "granny" part doesn't fit her though.

At least the speed part does.

[monhan]

It's like what Clarste said there. The point of the story is not the urban legend, it's about an outsider wanting to get into Gensoukyo. The urban legend itself is just a side effect, which plays a role of a usable plot point. Same thing with the popularity contest and all the religious stuff are just pretext, when the main focus is how to restore Kokoro's control of emotion.

What urban legend got in and who's using it, does not matter much. Even so, that doesn't mean popularity and urban legend can't be the focus of other characters' story.

And about the Mokou thing, there's an explanation for that actually. In Byakuren's story mode, she noticed that Mokou is unaware that she's holding an occult herself. So she didn't pick that urban legend, like Byakuren for example, it just came to her because of the Occult Ball. It shows that the occult power is something uncontrolable and unknown, which is the reason Byakuren gather them to seal it. The odd nature of the balls happens in other story arc too.
The Occult Ball power to "teleport" things are teased in Byakuren's and Miko's story and ending, and with Miko, shows that it can only connect between 2 worlds(thus it won't function in Senkai so it stays where Miko puts them, whereas it teleported the Buddha statue where Byakuren sealed it in her temple. Byakuren also speculates that it will also affect living beings.)
Go to Ichirin's ending, where she's transported to the Outside World, it shows the actual effect of the Occult Ball and how being in the Outside World affects her.
So even though the others may not do something direct about Sumireko, their part in the story helps us unveil the nature of this Occult Ball and, you know, make the story more complete instead of having to explain them all with just a few characters story arc. Not to mention those who knew about the balls true purpose refused to explain it clearly.

Of course, there are those like Koishi and Kokoro where their story is essentialy about themselves, the urban legend is simply something motivate it. I like their development in this game.

[7TC7]

Can anyone translate the VS Network menu, if it isn't already somewhere? A short explanation on how to use it would also be appreciated. I haven't played netplay since SWR and am kinda interested in getting back into it with ULiL.

[Sagus]

10.5 at least added one extra character, so it wouldn't have hurt to add one more to this game.  Adding only four feels like a step back.

Like I said, this is likely because of the sprite resolution used. HM/ULiL sprites are far more detailed than previous ones, so it takes longer to make them. And a 14 character roster is a good enough selection. A single less character is a really silly thing to complain about, considering that this is not a giant company with a ton of resources at their disposal.

And about the characters that you feel that should've made in... Well, clastre already gave a good explanation for that

[cuc]

The fighting game wiki has the interfaces translated.

I don't think there's really a symbolism for the transformations in the first place.  Some have, but not all.  Some like Byakuren becoming a mouse, Koishi becoming a cat, and Futo becoming a chicken are pretty random.

The transformations reflect Mamizou's impression of the characters. Koishi becoming a cat is obvious: a cat is her own master, coming and going at will, not subject to anyone's orders. Sumireko has tried hard to make herself a spooky kid no one wants to be friends with. For Kasen, I think Mamizou finds her sneaky, made more dangerous by her inconspicuous and helpful appearance.

I had already explained Futo becoming a chicken: the chicken is the sacred animal of the Mononobe family shrine. More importantly, Futo is a big coward.

Plenty of people pointed out why Mokou becomes the fire rat: the fire rat robe was one of Kaguya's seven requests.

Hijiri becoming a mouse is the only one that's not readily apparent. It might be a reference to the iron rat monk legend, mentioned in last year's Forbidden Scrollery. ZUN's favorite writer, Kyogoku Natsuhiko also wrote a novel based on the legend.