Author Topic: Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87  (Read 807865 times)

Jana

  • mrgrgr
  • *
But really if you're interested I'd reccomend this track or this one or this (which is actually one of my favourite arrangements ever). I don't even like their techno stuff that much but as you can listen their works are varied and in my opinion absolutely stunning. I'm just happy they've got a chance to work in an official touhou game!

I'm personally a fan of this one.

I didn't play the full release of the last fighter, but I might give this one a shot. The flying movement is a bit much to get used to but I guess that's supposed to be the point of making a Touhou fighter now, instead of one where they're ground-based.

LunaWillow

  • >Everyone: Pose as a team
  • The world is real.
I'm personaly going to wait with listening themes until I'll get the game. Altough heavy metal Hartmann's Youkai Girl sounds cool!

Anyway, I did a quick doodle of Koishi as Satoru-kun.
Normal 1cc: EoSD, PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF, SA, UFO, TD, DDC, HSiFS
Hard 1cc: PoFV
Extra Clear: PCB, IN, PoFV, MoF
Other Stuff: ISC all clear

~Shin Kuroi~

  • Sleepy Cat
  • fuwaaa... sleepy...
I'm personaly going to wait with listening themes until I'll get the game. Altough heavy metal Hartmann's Youkai Girl sounds cool!

Anyway, I did a quick doodle of Koishi as Satoru-kun.

I really like your art! I think the Satoru-kun legend fits Koishi perfectly. I hope that's what they did for her, to be honest... ;w;"
yawn...

Deck system can be outdone with smart deck design/cycling and weather almost never really bothers anyone who notices it.
Now I hope they don't keep the completely random occult events, would be really nice.

Please refrain from calling it "Competitively Unhealthy", RNG in a game should be competitively unhealthy when RNG causes skill difference to matter less, which is not the case. (it certainly is not perfect but it's not bad either)
I'd even go so far as to say wrongblocks/reads/mixups are quite similar to RNG. And then there's this thing about we have no clue what the opponent's skills/spells setup in HM is.
Deck system's problem is it accomplished exactly the same basic things as a groove system. The results were the same as any other game with alternate versions of the same char: Strong chars choose things to strengthen their game, middling chars choose things to cover up their weaknesses, weak chars choose whatever because it doesn't actually matter. To me, the deck system is absolutely superfluous and does little to affect matchup balance. I don't believe in 'personal playstyle' here, because everyone has their own quirks, but if you're serious about being competitive in anything you play the game that is, not the game you want to play.

The card draws being random was cute but, honestly, all it did was distract from fighting the opponent, so you could not focus on what it was you wanted to do unless the game wanted to let you at that junction. Weather was more controllable and less of an issue, but honestly it only mattered when one player wanted a weather and the other didn't, and the cycle showed that it was possible to get it. Most notably it was Typhoon that affected matches. For such an integral system it really just didn't add a whole lot to the game other than more things to memorize, on the whole, and could have been done in a more consistent fashion without sacrificing anything.

RNG is a thing that's perfectly fine in competitive games if they are done at the user's request; that is, if a player wants to gamble on a chance, let them. Environmental or systematic randomness simply downplays the player's choices in favor of the game's own, and that is something a lot of more serious players will object to. I'm honestly really disappointed that Tasofro still happens to think this is the way to make matches more interesting, what with the Mystery Spot effects, because I pretty much resolutely feel it simply says the game thinks that the players are not interesting enough on their own. I totally think that sort of randomness is fine for a single player game, to keep the player on his toes, which is why I play a billion roguelikes. Just doesn't fit with a versus game, to me.

Wrongblocks/reads are not RNG, because humans are never truly random. They are unpredictable, of which there is a huge difference in how you approach them. Nobody lacks patterns, not the strongest players, nor the weakest. It isn't uncommon to watch heavy swings in match momentum be dictated entirely by carefully watching for them and how the strategies shift into each other with time. There's a huge skill wall around the middle levels of ability where people can't break forward because they can't recognize or realize this; where players who are not necessarily more technically proficient move further along because they simply make more of the right choices at the right times.

Hidden information is a tricky subject with fighting games since for so long we've gotten used to our true hidden information being our input buffer, whereas more games are experimenting with that now as simpler inputs are taking hold, allowing more free usage of specials at any given juncture.

IaMP grognard here will tell you the real problem with SWR/Soku, from day one, wasn't the random stuff but its godawful cancel system making footsies extremely constrained. All these movement options and you have fewer practical ones at any given juncture than you did in IaMP, sucked. More to learn in terms of what everything does and how to react to it, less to actually do in terms of meaningful tactical options and player expressiveness. My impression of the newer Astra-style games is that they still disallow fast movement cancels but the recovery times are much shorter, which generally makes it not quite as risky to throw something out carelessly as it was in Soku. So, potential is there, at the very least.

Do think it's kinda funny that each game has fewer projectiles than the last, though.

Fumi

  • Dragon of Seven Colors
  • Disaster in Takamagahara
Wooow, Miko's theme... got more rad. In HM it was majestic and serene but now it's RAD like her. I also like Reimu's theme a lot, Koishi's one is fitting for her too... somehow and OH GOD, Byakuren's theme! Seriously, I'm not a big fan of her theme but damn, that was awesome, I overall like the music from ULiL more than HM because it sounds less "lazy", it's actually good to see we have a lot of invited artists.

From the looks of it, most character gimmicks are returning but are not that evident, I really wonder what Miko's one does, it looks like she can change her cape colors and if you look closely during Kokoro's teaser you can see she changes the color of her skirt to melancholy, I don't know what to think because gimmicks give characters their own uniqueness but I really wanted to see how everyone would play without relying on them.

Finally, well the release date is getting closer, I wonder if we will actually get 2 more characters including the silhouette girl, from the looks of it ULiL will look really good, it's like good ol' SWR which in my opinion is one of the best fighters, we got a dense cast, A COMPLEX WELL ELABORATED STORY MODE and some cool looking spell cards. I'm not that much into the competitive scene but I can say I never liked the deck system in SWR, weather wasn't that annoying but I think the occult balls stuff will be an issue here, it might be too centralizing to get them because they are the only way to execute a last word.

Oh man, I am so excited, MIKO LOOKS SO FABULOUS with her and Mokou in, I am more than happy

So far it looks like the game will be great! However i will speak for myself about the controls... for air based fighters i got used to HM control scheme, and while the move customization is no longer present, everyone's moveset is larger but i have a lot of problems controling characters in the demo. But it's probably temporary since i thought the controls in HM were bad but i got used to them. I am going to have fun with Mokou and Shinmyoumaru ( hopefully Kaguya will also get in ). Speaking of the Lunatic Princess of the Moon, if she doesn't appear in ULIL she might appear in the next air based fighter, since she and Mokou were planned for UNL ( as well as i think Nitori ) so in HM Nitori was added, ULIL Mokou so if she doesn't appear as well with Mokou then she might appear in the next one ( it would be such a missed opportunity not to have these 2 immortal achnemesis duke it out ). Also the new character  Hanako i think will be a subordinate of the final boss or a penultime boss and the final boss will be a Youkai of Urban Legends and i think get's a lot of inspiration from Aka Manto, the cape, the cards ( red papper, blue papper ) and it would make sense for Aka Manto and Hanako to know each other since they are both related to school and public bathrooms.
1CC Easy: UFO , MOF, PCB, DDC, GFW, POFV, TD, IN, SA, 1CC Normal: MOF, DDC, IN, POFV, PCB, TD, EOSD, HSIFS
Extra Mode: Ran Yakumo, Okina Matara

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
I have to say at this point I'm at a loss for who the culprit might be now, I thought it would be the Aka Manto but now that spot's been taken up by Miko.

Gpop

  • Subconscious Rose Girl, Koishi
  • FIRST PLACE BAYBEE!
RNG is a thing that's perfectly fine in competitive games if they are done at the user's request; that is, if a player wants to gamble on a chance, let them. Environmental or systematic randomness simply downplays the player's choices in favor of the game's own, and that is something a lot of more serious players will object to. I'm honestly really disappointed that Tasofro still happens to think this is the way to make matches more interesting, what with the Mystery Spot effects, because I pretty much resolutely feel it simply says the game thinks that the players are not interesting enough on their own. I totally think that sort of randomness is fine for a single player game, to keep the player on his toes, which is why I play a billion roguelikes. Just doesn't fit with a versus game, to me.

Yeah RNG Is fine if it's something like, say, a single character mechanic and not a major game mechanic. That way players can choose to risk RNG or not (ie. Phoenix Wright in UMvC3). But that bolded text is one of the reasons why I can't accept it in Soku. Mauve explained it better than me. That's why it's unhealthy and why HM is, from a systematic standpoint, is much healthier for competitive play that SWR/Soku.

If there's an option to turn off the random effects - even if it's only in versus mode - this game would be perfect. I agree that systematic randomness takes a lot of the competitiveness out of a fighter, and to be honest an option like that should be fairly trivial to implement.

If the initial release doesn't have such an option I seriously hope there will be a patch that adds it.

Personally think the random stuff in SWR/Soku is a not that big a deal at best, but okay. It's obnoxious and could just as easily be done with non-randomized systems, but it doesn't really cripple the game, it's just kinda dumb/pandering. Definitely don't agree with people who just want to mod them out of the game, because they are still integral systems and important to the overall design of the match flow(weather, for example, is manipulated in the same way you get point items for bombs in IaMP). Meters are pacing mechanics, they exist for a very specific reason.

Either way, if it's multiplayer, and you want to play seriously/be taken seriously, you play the game you are given from what authority is respected by the playing community, most often the original developer. If the Western community decides it wants to play a different version than the one everyone else is playing would be a great way to never be taken seriously by those playing Standard Version, and if you're okay with that go ahead.

HM's problem is mostly that it had a really bad start, seriously the early versions play completely awful and are boring in every way. For awhile every other week they'd release a patch heavily retooling one system or another, but nobody really wanted to go back to it after either being turned off initially or after the umpteenth game-overhauling patch that made them relearn their stuff. It did get better, overall, but I think they were wise to just clean the slate and do them all at once instead of continuing to iterate in public. Definitely a side effect of them releasing the game way before it was actually ready.

edit: There is also a sneaking suspicion I have that the removal of deck systems is Tasofro's way of saying that they want to take it to the arcades. We'll see.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 12:36:22 AM by mauve »

Plastic Vortex

  • Girl is ranking up
  • Please wait warmly
Hmm, I just realized something.

Why is it that in the PV, while Kasen is fighting Mokou, the background changes to the Lunar Capital (月の都) once the timer counts down to 0. Maybe its just Mokou's relation to the moon (Kaguya etc.) or perhaps it's a new character stage?

TheTeff007

  • Best Touhou 2015!
  • So much cuteness...!
    • Youtube Channel
Hmm, I just realized something.

Why is it that in the PV, while Kasen is fighting Mokou, the background changes to the Lunar Capital (月の都) once the timer counts down to 0. Maybe its just Mokou's relation to the moon (Kaguya etc.) or perhaps it's a new character stage?

That's one of the Mystery Spots activated by the Occult Ball... I cannot recall it's effect while on stage, though
Small Teaser of my upcoming project~

No need to call me Teff007. Teff will do just as well~

Definitely don't agree with people who just want to mod them out of the game, because they are still integral systems and important to the overall design of the match flow...
I'm not saying that other people should mod the game. I'm just saying that it would be a bonus if Tasofro themselves put something like that in, since I think it'll make the game more attractive to certain groups of players. Honestly I'm fine with what the game has now, but there are people who probably disagree with me on that.

I play fightings mainly in story modes, and for story mode occult balls are very nice, on the level of UFOs nice. And I think the same goes for most players, doesn't it?

And music is good)

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
@mauve
I agree with you.
I am fully aware that SWR/Soku isn't the perfect game or anything, and how it turned off a portion of IaMP players. I am mainly slightly upset at the word "Competitively Unhealthy" (which is not yours). The skill ceiling of the game is not similar to standard fighters, but it's still there. "Competitively Unhealthy" is not supposed to be an acceptable word.
I agree with your arguments, and I fully appreciate your post. Thank you.

@GPop
I can't seem to agree with yours. Sorry, to me a slight not-really-gamebreaking RNG that can be outdone does not equal to competitive unhealthiness or anything. But I guess I shouldn't derail this thread anymore just because I am slightly upset for having the game I play being called out.  :) Thank you for your arguments.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 04:10:08 AM by FearNagae »

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Apparently the arranger of Marisa's "Love-colored Master Spark" is oiko, who like ziki_7, is a collaborator with Tasofro.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 04:09:56 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Yeah don't mind me, I tend to get a bit rambly when it comes to matters of fighting game design and theory haha.

Honestly I think I'd be a lot more interested in this game if not for the Mystery Spot thing, moreso than I got for their last few games, but we'll see how it ends up being in the final version. (if there's no actual free web demo I'm so not bothering though.)

Fumi

  • Dragon of Seven Colors
  • Disaster in Takamagahara
I play fightings mainly in story modes, and for story mode occult balls are very nice, on the level of UFOs nice. And I think the same goes for most players, doesn't it?

And music is good)

I forgot about their role in story mode, which sounds interesting, I wonder what kind of story mode we will get, I'm hoping we could get one like SWR but if there is more to it, like investigating a character you choose, well that would be really cool.

I don't like when fighter games discussions get too technical, sure it's about the game but at this moment everything is speculation, specially about the gameplay I think we should be all happy because ULiL in the end turned out better of what we expected.

Let's focus on important matters like, anyone actually heard Legend of the Great Gods in Futo's arrangement?

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
if there's no actual free web demo I'm so not bothering though.
I'm guessing the free web demo will come out after Reitaisai.

I agree that their long-term goal might be getting an official arcade version out. ZUN did say it'd be a good thing if Touhou can attract more people to the arcades. That surely beats making a Touhou anime, both in probability and potential benefits.
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

I play fightings mainly in story modes, and for story mode occult balls are very nice, on the level of UFOs nice. And I think the same goes for most players, doesn't it?
According to the results of 2009's annual Touhou poll in Japan, section 5, of the people who had responded having owned SWR, 35.88% responded as having never played multiplayer, 24.02% responded as having never played multiplayer online. So the majority are in it for single player or playing with friends only, or can't stand online play, and that's fine.

These sorts of things are just not what I'm looking for in these games, you know? Just means I should look somewhere else, really, because Tasofro clearly likes this direction and a lot of Touhou fans do as well.

I remember UFOs being kind of a divisive mechanic too, despite basically just being Psikyo powerups in a ZUN game.

I'm guessing the free web demo will come out after Reitaisai.

I agree that their long-term goal might be getting an official arcade version out. ZUN did say it'd be a good thing if Touhou can attract more people to the arcades. That surely beats making a Touhou anime, both in probability and potential benefits.
Touhou anime is so far off from the direction ZUN's been leaning the past few years. Surrounding himself with more and more indie game people? Showing more interest in the West? Yeah, he's becoming enamored with "Indie" gaming as a thing, and I can't say I'm either surprised or blame him.

Interesting times are afoot but I can't help but feel like he's missed the window of opportunity by a few years, and dragging his feet on getting it out here isn't helping.

edit: ah, finally hit that magical 10 post count that lets me be a normal human being. would have had it years ago if my account hadn't been purged (for the second time!!!) along with all the other sub-10-post accounts. this is a very silly way of authing people
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 05:40:12 AM by mauve »

Maple

  • Mukyuu!
Given that Kasen is here and Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom (probably) has something with the moon, maybe it is time i should binge-read the touhou mangas. Is there a recommended order? I guess that, chronologically, the moon sage is the first, but what about FS and WaHW?

WaHH for 15~ chapters, then it goes alongside FS.
If you're going to read SSiB, then you may as well  try CiLR.

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
Yeah don't mind me, I tend to get a bit rambly when it comes to matters of fighting game design and theory haha.

Honestly I think I'd be a lot more interested in this game if not for the Mystery Spot thing, moreso than I got for their last few games, but we'll see how it ends up being in the final version. (if there's no actual free web demo I'm so not bothering though.)

Heheh I can get pretty rambly too when it concerns several games.

I can tell the mystery spot is being a huge turn off there, I wish they'd make it somewhat controllable as in SWR. And unfortunately I'm in doubt whether they'll be releasing another demo but yeah we'll see.

Hawk

  • Babababa~
While I too am feeling iffy on the occult balls mechanic, which really concerns me is how 1-dimensional defense is in ULIL.  Without throws or high-low, holding back beats everything.  It makes me think approaches will devolve into safe moves that lead to block strings that break guard most of the time (or the scrubby counter-hit fishing wonderland that will likely dominate for a few months).  While I didn't like the system at all, it did seem like Popularity countered turtling pretty hard.  I guess we'll see.

While I too am feeling iffy on the occult balls mechanic, which really concerns me is how 1-dimensional defense is in ULIL.  Without throws or high-low, holding back beats everything.  It makes me think approaches will devolve into safe moves that lead to block strings that break guard most of the time (or the scrubby counter-hit fishing wonderland that will likely dominate for a few months).  While I didn't like the system at all, it did seem like Popularity countered turtling pretty hard.  I guess we'll see.

I'm kinda iffy on that aspect too, honestly. The Occult Balls are obviously there to work against defensive play but I dunno... it seems weird to me.

I also hope that you can turn the timer off. I'm not a big fan of winning by timeout etc., feels kinda boring. I'm not against it because it is a legit way to win, just really dry.

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
The mixup lies in bullet-melee. Pressure and crushes seem to be quite strong in comparison to HM and probably soku as well, so I doubt we'll see a lot of turtling here.

TBH people worry too much about the mixup game too much. What matters is how hard it is to get into that situation; if you can avoid the mixups all day _and_ they're not very strong, that's a problem. Most anime games are hard to get pinned down but you get stuck into RPS shenanigans once you finally get there, so I can see why players focus on it, but there's also the opposite situation where if you're forced to be aggressive to avoid getting into that situation, the mixup game doesn't have to be particularly deep or interesting, because they already lost midscreen.

Win by timeout is a pressuring thing, to prevent you from just waiting all day for the 'right time' to do something. In SWR/Soku/IaMP, meter build was such that if you sat around doing nothing, your opponent would be the one gaining all the meter (in Soku, by whiffing. In IaMP, by patiently grazing forever.) and that would backfire on you pretty hard. Seriously, as a Reimu player I had to give up being defensive solely because I kept having matches that went very well up right until I ran into 7~9 stocks of Sakuya's World. That ain't winnable! Timeout's just codifying that sort of thing and letting them give you a different reason to get moving. Not necessarily better, but it's there.

Also if they're targeting arcades they need one.

AJS

  • Danmakufu Scripter
I also hope that you can turn the timer off. I'm not a big fan of winning by timeout etc., feels kinda boring. I'm not against it because it is a legit way to win, just really dry.
I feel the same way, and I always wished you could shut off the timer in HM.  But here, the Occult Balls actually solve that issue since each appearance of one freezes the timer while it's active.  In a way, it somewhat prolongs the match.  I can't remember ever winning or losing a match in the demo via time-out.  They also would seem to discourage defensive play since a more aggressive opponent will be able to get the balls more easily, and thus pepper you with stronger and stronger occult attacks.

The one thing I'm concerned about is FPS.  I doubt I'm alone on this, but in the demo the occult field effects would cause massive slowdown.  I seem to recall Tasofro fixed some of the FPS issues plaguing HM in the demo before the final release, but the lag caused by occult balls was rather pronounced.  I seriously hope they do something about that, or my enjoyment of the game will be a lot lower.

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
The one thing I'm concerned about is FPS.
Unfortunately the demo haven't allowed the player to halve the fps yet (there's an option for it but it's not doing anything), but the full game should have it. Would help a lot.

~Shin Kuroi~

  • Sleepy Cat
  • fuwaaa... sleepy...
Unfortunately the demo haven't allowed the player to halve the fps yet (there's an option for it but it's not doing anything), but the full game should have it. Would help a lot.

Yeah I agree to be honest. I could barely play HM due to the FPS lag. Didn't ZUN at one point say that HM was meant for higher-end computers? (or was that about DDC? I get some aspects confused sometimes, sorry.)
yawn...