Author Topic: Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87  (Read 808098 times)

Dream Wanderer

Thanks for the welcome! ^_^

On the manner of occult spell cards, I?ve been considering about how they?re going to implement that system into the complete game when it goes live. Currently in the demo, they're used as spell cards by your opponents in story mode, similar to past fighting games. On the player side, traditional spell cards are chosen before the match similar to IaMP while a special occult ability is also available to each character that gets stronger the more occult balls are gathered. Because it?s fun to speculate and just cause I like thinking of cool ideas for abilities whether they?re implemented or not, I?ve been thinking how that system could expand in a more finished version of the title.

Since the details of urban legends can vary depending on the version of the story being told, and because every urban legend has different aspects to it, what if it was possible to select from a few different occult abilities that ownership of legends could convey to the characters? Here are a few examples of what I had in mind:

1. Reimu Hakurei
Legend: The Gap Woman
Description: The woman (or sometimes girl) from the gap is a spirit and urban legend derived from traditional Edo era folklore. She is said to live in the small gaps and cracks between furniture, doors, and drawers. If one day you meet her gaze she will ask you to play hide and seek. The second time you see her eyes in a gap you will be taken to another dimension. (or to Hell)

Reimu?s current ability that she gains from the legend is the ability to slice open gaps with her gohei and launch sotoba markers at her enemies similar to Yukari. Likewise, her last word drags them into the gap with her and binds them while she attacks them. That hide-and-seek element of the story though could be possibly made into an alternate regular ability that Reimu could use. The idea of peering eyes looking through gaps makes me think of another traditional ability of Yukari?s, her Laplace eyes that she summons to fire on her foes when she attacks them. What if Reimu could use an ability similar to this by making use of this aspect of the legend of the gap woman?

Other possible abilities could involve summoning ghastly arms out of the gaps to grab or attack an opponent, or some shadowy, terrifying representation of Yomi, Naraka, or Diyu to emerge.

2. Marisa Kirisame
Legend: The 7 Mysteries of the School
Description: It seems like every school in Japan is secretly the host to a gathering of seven mysterious and supernatural phenomena that pervade its halls and classrooms. A cultural occurrence that started as a way of letting the chill of fear chase away the heat of summer, the seven mysteries vary depending on the school that keeps them, often arising from weird events in the building?s history or just unusual rumors that spread among the students. As for why it was Marisa took interest in this legend, I think that it could be a reference to the idea of learning and its connection to magic. (Despite how much she downplays it, Marisa?s a magician that really does spend a lot of time reading and studying to keep up with Reimu?s natural talent and discover new spell cards to make, so I can imagine her liking a ghost story connected to institutions of knowledge. That and they're really cool and well-known, which I could also see as something that would fit Marisa?s tastes.)

Now that I?ve explained the concept with Reimu, an easy alternate ability for Marisa would be having different sets of the more well-known school mysteries in her arsenal that she could summon, or more powerful singular ones. Some of them could even have special effects, like a frightening mirror that could reflect attacks or even create an evil twin of her opponent that would attack them for a time, or a 13th stair step that could temporarily stop her challenger in place and interrupt them if they moved a certain distance. She could pelt her enemy with pencils and erasers, or use haunted art supplies to draw something scary to assist her. There?s a whole lot of possibility with her?

3. Kasen Ibaraki
Legend: The Monkey?s Paw
Description: This legend, which is often associated with the short story of the same name by English author W. W. Jacobs, is the tale of a severed monkey?s paw that grants its owner three wishes. However, to teach them not to interfere with fate, any wish they make with it will have some horrible drawback to it. The paw will twist the wish in some way into a form that will only cause its finder pain and sorrow. The wish-giving aspect of the paw is where Kasen?s title in the game comes from. Another thing I find interesting is that this is an urban legend that originated in the west, meaning that it?s quite possible that urban legends from around the world might make an appearance in ULiL (which could also be hinted at by the mystery spots being occult locations from around the planet.)

As for alternate abilities for Kasen, I can definitely see this wish-granting power implementable in some way. Perhaps she could make a wish to the monkey?s paw to improve a certain skill of hers or grant her an impressive benefit or buff of some kind in battle, but at the cost of an ability being made temporarily unusable or having to endure a period of reduced attack power/movement speed/guarding efficiency/etc. to make up for it. The paw could also be used for different melee attacks like slapping or slashing the enemy from a distance, or inflict some kind of harmful curse on the opponent. (This curse could possibly also be a detriment to Kasen later, as the opponent could get something that benefits them as well because of the paw?s twisting of the curse. A skillful player would have to be careful when choosing the right time to make a wish.)

Like I said these are all just some thoughts I had. I love urban legends and folklore in general, and it?s always enjoyable to see how they could be used in a gaming setting. Whatever ZUN, Moe, and the great minds at Twilight Frontier think up for it, I?m 100% positive that Urban Legend in Limbo will be a wonderful game and a great entry into the saga of the Touhou Project.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 11:08:06 PM by Dream Wanderer »

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
Thanks for the welcome! ^_^

On the manner of occult spell cards, I?ve been considering about how they?re going to implement that system into the complete game when it goes live. Currently in the demo, they're used as spell cards by your opponents in story mode, similar to past fighting games. On the player side, traditional spell cards are chosen before the match similar to IaMP while a special occult ability is also available to each character that gets stronger the more occult balls are gathered. Because it?s fun to speculate and just cause I like thinking of cool ideas for abilities whether they?re implemented or not, I?ve been thinking how that system could expand in a more finished version of the title.

Since the details of urban legends can vary depending on the version of the story being told, and because every urban legend has different aspects to it, what if it was possible to select from a few different occult abilities that ownership of legends could convey to the characters? Here are a few examples of what I had in mind:

1. Reimu Hakurei
Legend: The Gap Woman
Description: The woman (or sometimes girl) from the gap is a spirit and urban legend derived from traditional Edo era folklore. She is said to live in the small gaps and cracks between furniture, doors, and drawers. If one day you meet her gaze she will ask you to play hide and seek. The second time you see her eyes in a gap you will be taken to another dimension. (or to Hell)

Reimu?s current ability that she gains from the legend is the ability to slice open gaps with her gohei and launch sotoba markers at her enemies similar to Yukari. Likewise, her last word drags them into the gap with her and binds them while she attacks them. That hide-and-seek element of the story though could be possibly made into an alternate regular ability that Reimu could use. The idea of peering eyes looking through gaps makes me think of another traditional ability of Yukari?s, her Laplace eyes that she summons to fire on her foes when she attacks them. What if Reimu could use an ability similar to this by making use of this aspect of the legend of the gap woman?

Other possible abilities could involve summoning ghastly arms out of the gaps to grab or attack an opponent, or some shadowy, terrifying representation of Yomi or Naraka to emerge.

2. Marisa Kirisame
Legend: The 7 Mysteries of the School
Description: It seems like every school in Japan is secretly the host to a gathering of seven mysterious and supernatural phenomena that pervade its halls and classrooms. A cultural occurrence that started as a way of letting the chill of fear chase away the heat of summer, the seven mysteries vary depending on the school that keeps them, often arising from weird events in the building?s history or just unusual rumors that spread among the students. As for why it was Marisa took interest in this legend, I think that it could be a reference to the idea of learning and its connection to magic. (Despite how much she downplays it, Marisa?s a magician that really does spend a lot of time reading and studying to keep up with Reimu?s natural talent and discover new spell cards to make, so I can imagine her liking a ghost story connected to institutions of knowledge. That and they're really cool and well-known, which I could also see as something that would fit Marisa?s tastes.)

Now that I?ve explained the concept with Reimu, an easy alternate ability for Marisa would be having different sets of the more well-known school mysteries in her arsenal that she could summon, or more powerful singular ones. Some of them could even have special effects, like a frightening mirror that could reflect attacks or even create an evil twin of her opponent that would attack them for a time, or a 13th stair step that could temporarily stop her challenger in place and interrupt them if they moved a certain distance. She could pelt her enemy with pencils and erasers, or use haunted art supplies to draw something scary to assist her. There?s a whole lot of possibility with her?

3. Kasen Iberaki
Legend: The Monkey?s Paw
Description: This legend, which is often associated with the short story of the same name by English author W. W. Jacobs, is the tale of a severed monkey?s paw that grants its owner three wishes. However, to teach them not to interfere with fate, any wish they make with it will have some horrible drawback to it. The paw will twist the wish in some way into a form that will only cause its finder pain and sorrow. The wish-giving aspect of the paw is where Kasen?s title in the game comes from. Another thing I find interesting is that this is an urban legend that originated in the west, meaning that it?s quite possible that urban legends from around the world might make an appearance in ULiL (which could also be hinted at by the mystery spots being occult locations from around the planet.)

As for alternate abilities for Kasen, I can definitely see this wish-granting power implementable in some way. Perhaps she could make a wish to the monkey?s paw to improve a certain skill of hers or grant her an impressive benefit or buff of some kind in battle, but at the cost of an ability being made temporarily unusable or having to endure a period of reduced attack power/movement speed/guarding efficiency/etc. to make up for it. The paw could also be used for different melee attacks like slapping or slashing the enemy from a distance, or inflict some kind of harmful curse on the opponent. (This curse could possibly also be a detriment to Kasen later, as the opponent could get something that benefits them as well because of the paw?s twisting of the curse. A skillful player would have to be careful when choosing the right time to make a wish.)

Like I said these are all just some thoughts I had. I love urban legends and folklore in general, and it?s always enjoyable to see how they could be used in a gaming setting. Whatever ZUN, Moe, and the great minds at Twilight Frontier think up for it, I?m 100% positive that Urban Legend in Limbo will be a wonderful game and a great entry into the saga of the Touhou Project.

You. I like you. It'd be amazing if those urban legend abilities could benefit the characters in other ways gameplay-wise, similar to the specific abilities characters in HM had.

I've been super out of the loop since Touhou 13.

How good is the gameplay style of HM? How does it compare to Hisoutensoku? (One of my favourite fighting games)

aListers

  • Vocaloid for the win!
  • Gensokyo forever!
    • Newgrounds
Man, Marisa's last word just seems fucked up (for lack of a better term) to me as a guy who's known of (and admittedly been scared of) these urban legends for a long time.
???-2004?=dark ages, 2005?=atomic betty era, 2006=red dwarf era, 2007-2009=newgrounds era, 2009-2014= anime era.

Been good talking to you all. Gensokyo gu braith!

Maiden Synnae ミ☆

  • Wizard Maiden
  • ★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆★☆
Man, Marisa's last word just seems fucked up (for lack of a better term) to me as a guy who's known of (and admittedly been scared of) these urban legends for a long time.

[nsfw]https://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/1904588[/nsfw]

Sorry. Had to post this.

Sweetness and love~ ♥

game2011

  • magneiptVE
    • Unsurpassed ??asual Dating - Real Women
I've been super out of the loop since Touhou 13.

How good is the gameplay style of HM? How does it compare to Hisoutensoku? (One of my favourite fighting games)
Personally, I like it, but it's generally agreed that it's probably the WORST Touhou game ever made, so expectations are currently low for this game.

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
I've been super out of the loop since Touhou 13.

How good is the gameplay style of HM? How does it compare to Hisoutensoku? (One of my favourite fighting games)
I enjoyed the game a lot, personally. Although the enemy AI was pretty bad for the most part, I probably like it more because of the art style and last word mechanics, although I would probably not get into it competitively like I did in soku. ULiL I'll most likely give a try comp-wise though, seeing how they're fixing some of those mechanics.

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
Not sure how good or bad it'll be as a game, but I'm more looking forward to the music and the new character : is she going to be a big addition like Kokoro was for Touhou fanworks ? Anyway, since there seems to be pre-battles themes, stages themes, and maybe the characters's actual themes, ULiL is likely going to have a lot of nice stuff to listen to. ZUN, why didn't you make Kasen's theme for the demo...

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
14.5 is a way better game than 13.5/HM IMO
14.5 is like all of the fighters combined, 7.5 + 12.3 + 13.5, however it hardly brought back anything that annoyed people during 13.5 so we can say it only took the positives of it.

I've made some videos about it in my YT channel, you can check it out if you're interested. ;) (I haven't uploaded any PvP replays though)

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
Not sure how good or bad it'll be as a game, but I'm more looking forward to the music and the new character : is she going to be a big addition like Kokoro was for Touhou fanworks ? Anyway, since there seems to be pre-battles themes, stages themes, and maybe the characters's actual themes, ULiL is likely going to have a lot of nice stuff to listen to. ZUN, why didn't you make Kasen's theme for the demo...
Is there any confirmation yet that the themes in the demo weren't Marisa and Kasen's actual themes respectively?

They're the stages' themes and neither is by ZUN.

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
They're the stages' themes and neither is by ZUN.
Neat, the themes did feel more fitting for stages rather than characters to me to begin with. I wonder if Marisa will recieve a new theme or have a re-arrange of one of her existing ones. Dance of the Witches arrange please ;~;

Wow I am just hearing about this haha. I enjoyed 13.5 but it did seem to be less of a normal fighter then the others. So this one will have some mechanics of the past fighters, combined with how 13.5 work? Like with a ground and faster gameplay.

I will miss the free flying, but this should make it a better fighter perhaps? Is there any word on returning characters? Will all the past ones show up?

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
Wow I am just hearing about this haha. I enjoyed 13.5 but it did seem to be less of a normal fighter then the others. So this one will have some mechanics of the past fighters, combined with how 13.5 work? Like with a ground and faster gameplay.

I will miss the free flying, but this should make it a better fighter perhaps? Is there any word on returning characters? Will all the past ones show up?
The whole HM cast are expected to come back

And as far as wether this game'll be good or bad goes, there are only opinions flying around, so I'll go with Fear Nagae over there and say it could be better than HM that and the fact that I'm fantastically horribad at fighting games I actually have to rely on the good players's judgment to give an opinion  :3

The whole HM cast are expected to come back

And as far as wether this game'll be good or bad goes, there are only opinions flying around, so I'll go with Fear Nagae over there and say it could be better than HM that and the fact that I'm fantastically horribad at fighting games I actually have to rely on the good players's judgment to give an opinion  :3

Haha, I kinda suck at traditional fighters, Smash and 3d fighters I do better at. Still, I hope its good and brings something new to the fight game genre.

And I hope Tewi is playable :p

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
I doubt (and hope) The old cast don't return, well, not FULLY at least. A roster with more room for newcomers would be perfect to me.

game2011

  • magneiptVE
    • Unsurpassed ??asual Dating - Real Women
And as far as wether this game'll be good or bad goes, there are only opinions flying around, so I'll go with Fear Nagae over there and say it could be better than HM
The general consensus seems to be that even though it's better than 13.5, it's still a bad game overall.

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
The general consensus seems to be that even though it's better than 13.5, it's still a bad game overall.

It's a consensus made by people who haven't tried it enough to notice that it is in no way similar to 13.5.
However unfortunately, that might really be the current "general" consensus.

anthonyshu01

  • Rin Kaenbyou
The general consensus seems to be that even though it's better than 13.5, it's still a bad game overall.

what makes it a bad game?

Flandre5carlet

  • Sister of the Devil
  • "So all I have to do is 'kyuu', and..."
    • flan.moe
Not particularly looking forward to it as far as I'm concerned; I'm not very fond of fighting games in the first place, and the Touhou ones don't really change that. Plus it's based on 13.5.
I'm rather waiting for whenever we get a 14.8 announcement, and I hope it'll be something unique kind of like 12.8 was.

Maybe my dream of a bullet-cancelling based game with Flan as the playable character-

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
what makes it a bad game?
Actually, it's about why some people call it bad.

From the way it LOOKS (sprites, flight, some moves), ULiL immediately got compared to HM, which received a lot of criticism, and the people who bashed on HM pretty much expect all of the not-well-received parts of HM to appear in ULiL and immediately started saying that it'll be a bad game too... For example, ULiL already receive criticism because it's also a flying fighter like HM, while in fact, it have a "ground" and it's pretty much a ground based fighter where you can jump down if I may say... It's not possible to grasp the game's mechanism from the way it looks alone so maybe the criticism come from the fact that 1/ it LOOKS like HM 2/ it's a fighting game (opinion are divided on these) 3/ Bandwagoning with the people who say it'll be a bad game 4/ Legit reasons (ie : the new "weather system").

If there is something that can get acceptable criticism in this game, then it should be its gimmick, the new weather-ish system (because RNG. And the pause. Oh god the pause) and maybe some other points that actual pros at fighting games might point out...
Else, It's usually said that it have a more solid gameplay compared to HM, and the AI is truly superior compared to the older Touhou fighting games.

Anyway, that was just my two cents  :V I don't believe Tasofro won't learn from their mistakes in HM. It's not sure wether this game'll be good or bad, but it's certain that it's only heavily criticized (because of questionnable reasons too) if anything else.

Maybe my dream of a bullet-cancelling based game with Flan as the playable character-
Sorry to break it to you, but Medicine getting in the top 10 30 in the popularity polls is more realistic than that  :V I wanna see something that's neither shooter nor fighter for 14.8 but that would be less realistic than the Watatsuki sisters getting in the top 50...
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 04:53:04 PM by Suspicious person »

Hawk

  • Babababa~
I wouldn't call it bad, but I would say certain things are concerning.

1. The weather/curse orbs system.

Obviously.  What is perhaps the worst part of this is that curse orbs are so intimately tied to gameplay that it would be problematic to just hack weather away.  I'll have to wait until whenever I can experience the game with other people in order to see what sort of effect it has on the game overall, but I can say right now I hate trying to get the Smash Ball.

2. Pressure/mixup.

The game has neither throws nor high/low mixup, which makes it hard to open people up.  I didn't play enough HM to understand how that really changed the game, but I imagine that I'll have to learn a good blockstring to even play the game at its most fundamental level.  I wish I knew why Tasafro was so against throws with regards to the Touhou fighting games, EFZ had them!

3. Removal of character abilities.

This one's pretty minor, but I thought the HM ones were cool, and I don't see much value in removing them (Reimu side-swapping, Marisa 3 star buildup, etc).  I do think all 3 characters in the demo feel good and complete, so I don't think they *need* them, but they would be nice.

-----

But there's also a lot of good things so far.  The game controls much better (partly due to the addition of a dedicated dash button) and is less floaty.  I'm one of those guys that actually prefers the lack of character customization over the previous game (Third Strike-style super picking is fine by me).  Perhaps the best thing is the removal of popularity and faith, both of which I hated.

So it's definitely got potential, but I do think weather/orbs as they exist now will prevent it from ever being a really good game, but it could be fun in doses.

I just feel the need to point this out.....

Quote
For example, ULiL already receive criticism because it's also a flying fighter like HM, while in fact, it have a "ground" and it's pretty much a ground based fighter where you can jump down if I may say...

TF did tighten the movement to make it less floaty than HM but that doesn't change the fact there's no "ground" contrary to what you're saying. You can't duck. You can't use motions (QCF, HCB....) to key in moves because of the role up and down play. The dynamics of air-to-ground or ground-to-air are different because your opponent can be below you even when you're "standing on the ground" (which... you aren't). Ground-travelling moves like some of the ones in Soku can't exist (they'd just be regular projectiles). Throws can't exist (not that they did, except maybe a few special "grab" moves). So on.

ULiL has clearly-defined corridors but there's no "standing on the ground" involved at all nor can the mechanics be compared. It's still an air-based fighter (but it is an improvement over HM.....) no matter how you cut it.

Maple

  • Mukyuu!
Sorry to break it to you, but Medicine getting in the top 10 30 in the popularity polls is more realistic than that  :V I wanna see something that's neither shooter nor fighter for 14.8 but that would be less realistic than the Watatsuki sisters getting in the top 50...

Pick your poison (no pun intended):
Quote
Which of the following is the most probable event?
a) The return of Mima
b) The, err, "return" of Rin Satsuki
c) Playable Watatsuki Sisters.
d) The death of one of the main humans (ie. Reimu, Marisa, maybe Sakuya/Youmu/Sanae if you want a bigger selection pool)

While each of those events are very, very unlikely, I'm going to go with (c) simply because that one looks like the most realistic of the four.

If (b), I'm going to the nearest gas station and buying a lottery ticket.

Spoiler:
and I'm going to win the jackpot

Suspicious person

  • Just a humble wanderer
  • How suspicious~
*Correction*
Ooops. I guess "ground" was a bad way to put it, I think I'll use "the place where you go back to" from now on  :V what do you mean, it sound shounen-ish ?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:02:17 PM by Suspicious person »

Doki-Doki

  • Oki-Dokie!
  • Ooh, scary, scary!
Pick your poison (no pun intended):
A or B. A man can dream.

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
I wish I knew why Tasafro was so against throws with regards to the Touhou fighting games, EFZ had them!
Throwing (as a pillar of the fighting system, not just a few spell cards) seems to be a bad fit for the Touhou universe. I can imagine ZUN and Tasofro deciding to forego throws during IaMP's early development.

Nonetheless, it seems possible to me to implement throws in the current ULiL system in a way that does not break the lore (they don't have to grab the opponent using their own hands), if not for their current design philosophy that's so focused on simplification.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 01:17:55 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Hawk

  • Babababa~
That could be.  I'm not saying you need the "Attack > Throw > Block > Attack" cycle that many games have employed.  However, right now it's mostly just "Block > Everything", forcing people to rely on stagger pressure and baiting counterhits.  While I think that's fine sometimes, for it to be the full spectrum of pressure is limiting and kind of bland.

But we'll see how it evolves when the full game comes out.  Maybe blockstring guardbreaks are really strong?

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
> 1. The weather/curse orbs system.
That's what I thought at first. And unlike the weathers in 12.3 these are completely random. However, I feel their effects are not as gamebreaking as weathers so I'll see how it works out later.

> 2. Pressure/mixup.
The game has BULLET/MELEE mixup, not high/low mixup for blockstrings. If you want of course there's more mixups opened like crossups (crossup protections has been removed in this game), and up/down movement mixup.

> 3. Removal of character abilities. / character customization
I admit this one is really annoying and limits creativity. If they want to remove skill customization at least make it so a skill has more than one version- similar to IaMP.
The way it is we have very limited skill/specials on our arsenal.

> "Block > Everything"
This is true for 13.5. However in 14.5 you have legit blockstring and pressure options. They probably aren't "really strong", but they certainly are dangerous.

> Throws
There's probably ways to implement throws without breaking the lore, but you need to understand that in 12.3/13.5/14.5 damage aren't free- they make it so people need to work to do damage and also possible to escape, throw would probably be hard to balance, as you can see in 12.3 throws are either really weak (Youmu's), really wacky (Utsuho's), or really difficult to land (spellcard throws like Suika's and Suwako's).

> but there's no "standing on the ground"
There is. This is where you do grounded move. This is where you highjump. This is where you landcancel. This is where you "fall" to after jumping. Okay you can't duck, or someone can go below you (which almost means the same as someone jumping above you anyway) but that doesn't mean there's no ground. You might even consider "jumping down" as some sort of mixture between jumping and crouching, as there's some moves that can only be done if you "jumped down". (Marisa 2b)

Overall I agree that these three are rather problematic but it's not as major as people think it is. If anything the one I disliked most were the 3rd, I hope they'd change something. Maybe assign a new button for specials aside from C.
Well, that's my opinions. Don't be too harsh on me  ::)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:05:52 AM by FearNagae »