Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87

[TheTeff007]

I am excited to see Sukuna and Mokou in a Game, but slightly dissapointed that this game will only feature 4 new (well, 1 new character, 3 returning ones) characters...

Seems like too little, but then again, the graphics are quite bothersome to do, I guess.

If it indeed is Hanako-san, whatever her relationship could be with Marisa? Since her LW is an obvious reference to the Hanako-San myth. Heck, even the title of the spellcard is a blatant reference!

Here's a thought: there's a tradition in Touhou fighting games. There are always two boss characters (the Catfish is not a full character and doesn't count). The bosses are most notable in that they are not featured on the official sites. Before release, they are officially spoiler territory. Until Soku, they are also the last two characters you face in Arcade Mode.

7.5: Yukari and Suika
10.5: Iku and Tenshi (the only game with the luxury of two all new bosses)
12.3: Utsuho and Suwako
13.5: Mamizou and Kokoro

It'll be interesting to see if ULiL breaks from the tradition. Or perhaps there's a fifth new character, after all.

Counter Argumenting that Mamizou was indeed mentioned in the leak of that Facebook User, while she was not mentioned in the official site. Unless that neutral (?) spot belongs to that character, I doubt this game will do such a thing. Also, given that Kasen seems to know about the Occult Ball and all, what are the chances she herself is not the "Stage 5 Boss" of this game?

[Savory]

So Mokou's gonna have her big break in a fighter, eh? So like her and Nitori, I wonder if this means Wriggle will get a spot?

Also, as far as this Hanako character goes, I wonder if she'll just be a normal character as opposed to a boss character? If she's named after the toilet ghost, which is  involved in Marisa's Strange Last Word, would she just be a character birthed from this new incident?

I dunno, I'd just find it nice to have 2 new characters for the price of one in another fighter.

[FearNagae]

I'm still expecting the game to have 5, perhaps that "neutral" slot will get to be used.

[game2011]

If we are to follow the "pattern" in 10.5, then it's all the characters from 7.5 (barring the Meiling DLC) plus five new characters, three of which are existing characters and two are brand new.  I said 2 brand new characters because if Hanako is only the penultimate boss, then it's likely that the final boss's name isn't in the demo.  If I remember correctly, Kokoro's name isn't in 13.5's demo.

[FearNagae]

If we are to follow the "pattern" in 10.5, then it's all the characters from 7.5 (barring the Meiling DLC) plus five new characters, three of which are taken from existing medias and 2 are brand new.  I said 2 brand new because if Hanako is only the penultimate boss, then it's likely that the final boss's name isn't in the demo.  If I remember correctly, Kokoro's name isn't in 13.5's demo.

I'm betting for this.
Perhaps they intentionally hide the final boss character completely !!

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I'm also expecting the blank "neutral" pointer to be used, likely for the final boss. Having Hanako as the pre-final-boss could work, which further supports that idea.

[TresserT]

...I can't help but wonder is Tasofro is messing with everyone. Not that I'd be at all upset with the listed characters, but can you imagine doing Marisa's strange last word on Hanako? There are other reasons I'm doubtful but I'm not going to make a list of them.

[Aya Reiko]

What if they want to pull out a Hisoutensoku?

The full HM cast is programmed in the full game, however they lack a story mode and can only be used by linking the game folders or downloading a .dat. But if that were the case, it doesn't make sense they added Mokou, Shinmyomaru and Hanako to the code but not others.

I think that's exactly where they're going, minus the last bit due to the game mechanics being significantly changed.

My understanding is that ZUN has complete control, since he's the one who has to write the story modes. The only exception we've seen is Meiling in IaMP, but they took her out for SWR. That said, I'm sure they could, like, talk to him and convince him to add a character that they have a cool idea for or something, but they won't be working around him secretly or anything. Ultimately though, the fighting games are mostly a chance to show off a bunch of characters in a different format, so I'm sure ZUN and Tasofro's goals align in portraying a wide variety of characters.

When I say "serves no purpose in the story" I simply mean that ZUN wanted to show off this character, but didn't have any good story for them. Like, Ichirin is clearly designed for this sort of thing. Honestly I wouldn't be all that surprised if ZUN was half-heartedly thinking about putting her in a fighting game when he first designed her. The point being that thinking solely in terms of who's related to the story is meaningless, since that's not how these games are being written.

If true, part of me that dreads how this game will turn out will gain momentum.  IMHO, ZUN has not impressed me as a story writer.  The story in the danmaku games are really simple if you think about it, and most side materials usually has the story by someone else with ZUN overseeing it instead.

[farios]

I think that's exactly where they're going, minus the last bit due to the game mechanics being significantly changed.
If true, part of me that dreads how this game will turn out will gain momentum.  IMHO, ZUN has not impressed me as a story writer.  The story in the danmaku games are really simple if you think about it, and most side materials usually has the story by someone else with ZUN overseeing it instead.

Ehh, you do realize that the main games consists of under 200 re-used dialogues right? My point is, of course it is simple because it was meant to be simple, it almost always follow the pattern:
 
Stage 6(A) boss caused an incident > MCs beats the crap out of A plus other boss who is either involved with A or just passing by > A introspects and all is well > Extra Story

I said almost because UFO does not follow the pattern, besides didn't ZUN writes the story for the side materials?

[Romantique Tp]

most side materials usually has the story by someone else with ZUN overseeing it instead.

Where do people get this from? Writing the manga is ZUN's job.

[nyttyn]

ZUN is actually a pretty decent writer. I mean, he's good enough to get so many people to buy into his tidbits of lore that he tosses out here and there and turn them into a massive sprawling enterprise of fan canon and doujin  :V

At any rate, they've stated ULiL is a full sequel, while Hisoutensoku was advertised as an expansion pack, so odds are good that the HM cast will have full story roles, and that you will not have to own both (Much like how you don't need to own MiAP to play as its cast in SWR). As for why Hanako's mentioned in the coding - likely because her sprite's in the game, and they referred to her by her name in the coding because they figured nobody'd dig through it (those assumptions people). Having only one new touhou isn't exactly unheard of, either - SWR's the only one that's had two newhus. MaIP also lacked any real "semi-final boss," so it's not impossible we might just have different stories this time around. Right that was Yukari, my bad.

That being said, this isn't actually the first time Hanako-san has been referred to by the games. Double Spoiler 12-6 "Hanako-san in the toilet." A nue spell card, so makes you wonder if she'll be shipped with Nue. And as for the concerns about the strangeness of using Marisa's Strange Last Word, it's likely that, assuming this is true, ZUN is treating the Hanako-san that is the hand in the toilet and the Hanako-san that is the girl in the bathroom stall as separate people (Which would still be rather strange but its own brand of strangeness).

[Starxsword]

I see no real issues. If Sanae can use Suwako to beat down on Suwako, Marisa can use Hanako to beat down on Hanako. If assuming Hanako is a playable character.

[monhan]

I see no real issues. If Sanae can use Suwako to beat down on Suwako, Marisa can use Hanako to beat down on Hanako. If assuming Hanako is a playable character.

But there's a reason for that. Gods can make supposedly infinite copies of themselves(explained in SoPM article for either Suwako or Kanako). So the Suwako and Kanako that Sanae calls are copies.

And guys, honestly, she's just named Hanako. Doesn't mean she's the toilet ghost. Obviously, she's Yuuka in disguise.
I still hope for the sombrero wearing, El Mariachi

[game2011]

Or there are more than one Hanako.

[Clarste]

ZUN is actually a pretty decent writer. I mean, he's good enough to get so many people to buy into his tidbits of lore that he tosses out here and there and turn them into a massive sprawling enterprise of fan canon and doujin  :V

The manga aren't... the greatest thing ever or anything, but I really like his style in both PMiSS and SoPM. It's just fun reading those. And I needn't mention that CiLR is his masterpiece.

Anyway, fighting games tend to have bad storytelling because of the repetitiveness of giving each character a story mode. That's just... not good for storytelling. Pretty simple. So the storytelling will be bad unless they decide to depart from this model. That doesn't necessarily mean the story itself is bad, but eh. It's a fighting game.

[ToyoRai]

If I'm honest with you people, something tells me that this Hanako person might not be the Hanako we are thinking about. Well, not directly. I just feel like there has to be more to this than have some ghost in the WC to be the final boss.

Though is Marisa's Last Word be in line with the myth where if you try to sit on a traditional toilet, a hand comes out of the toilet to grab you? Or is it the same tale, I don't know. Okay, the Marisa's Last Word makes direct reference to it. But hey, maybe they will change it later.

I am probably looking out for Mokou the most, simply to see where they are going with her character.

[Gpop]

What if they want to pull out a Hisoutensoku?

The full HM cast is programmed in the full game, however they lack a story mode and can only be used by linking the game folders or downloading a .dat.

Highly unlikely considering ULIL is being treated as a full-fledged rather than an expansion, so expect every character to have a story like in SWR.

[Tiamat]

Where do people get this from? Writing the manga is ZUN's job.

Maybe he just got it from Inaba of the Moon and Earth and extended it to all Touhou side works.  In truth, only Inaba wasn't written by ZUN.  IIRC all the others were 100% written by him, and Clarste even got a source in the first "ZUN Status" thread where other manga writers felt ZUN didn't give the manga writes (Moe, IIRC) enough freedom (the implication being that ZUN dictated even minor details, like background appearance cameos)

[Fumi]

What if they want to pull out a Hisoutensoku?

The full HM cast is programmed in the full game, however they lack a story mode and can only be used by linking the game folders or downloading a .dat. But if that were the case, it doesn't make sense they added Mokou, Shinmyomaru and Hanako to the code but not others.

Actually it looks like it's gonna be a SWR here, considering the low amount of characters, probably the religious arc is not over...

Anyway, fighting games tend to have bad storytelling because of the repetitiveness of giving each character a story mode. That's just... not good for storytelling. Pretty simple. So the storytelling will be bad unless they decide to depart from this model. That doesn't necessarily mean the story itself is bad, but eh. It's a fighting game.

SWR pulled this off pretty well, yes there was a lot of fighting and dull dialogue but somehow it worked, it managed to include all 15 characters without any alternate story or anything, it even did better than HM (All of HM's story modes took place, even if it doesn't look like it) and not all characters participated into the incident, take Remilia for example who was at her mansion to interrogate suspicious people or Aya, who was working on her newspaper and ended up fighting a pissed off Reimu.

[Clarste]

SWR pulled this off pretty well, yes there was a lot of fighting and dull dialogue but somehow it worked, it managed to include all 15 characters without any alternate story or anything, it even did better than HM (All of HM's story modes took place, even if it doesn't look like it) and not all characters participated into the incident, take Remilia for example who was at her mansion to interrogate suspicious people or Aya, who was working on her newspaper and ended up fighting a pissed off Reimu.

Personally, I found SWR dreadfully dull because it was just a bunch of random people doing stuff. I guess it works as a sort of slice-of-life thing, but as a story I think it failed. I mean, yeah, it's cool to see Komachi telling fortunes or Remilia kidnapping people, but then I also had to sit through Reisen doing... I don't even know because I can't remember. And 12 other people doing... things? What I'm saying is that the disparate nature of it made it all totally unmemorable. It was like reading through BAiJR except I had to fight the same people over and over again. Repetitive fights can also bring a story down.

Also HM's story modes totally look like they all take place (except you Futo...!). You just have to do them in order and the story plays out in a pretty straightforward manner. The point being that no one actually managed to solve Kokoro's problem until Mamizou. You can also boil down each character's route to "what they did for Kokoro" which makes them easy to remember. I guess all the pre-Mamizou fights in each route being pointless is a flaw, although frankly fighting random people for no reason is what the first half of Touhou games is all about.

[game2011]

In truth, only Inaba wasn't written by ZUN.

He still came up with story ideas, but he let the author have his freedom with the contents of the chapters.

[Clarste]

He still came up with story ideas, but he let the author have his freedom with the contents of the chapters.

The explanation being that he chose the artist for their sense of humor, so telling them what jokes to make would defeat the point entirely.

[Tiamat]

The explanation being that he chose the artist for their sense of humor, so telling them what jokes to make would defeat the point entirely.

Yea, I should have mentioned that.  That doesn't have much relevance to ZUN's writing ability, but it actually kinda irks me when people brush off the entirety of Inaba as entirely "not canon" when the skeleton of the plot was at least made in part by ZUN.

[Phasm]

If Shinmyoumaru Sakuna is appearing as a playable character... the possibility that the Miracle Mallet is involved in the Urban Legends appearing in Gensokyo might not be farfetched.

[Doki-Doki]

I like this idea of the silhouette being a pre-final-boss instead of the main antagonist, it'd give them an excuse to add 2 characters, possibly new or returning. Either way though I don't think the Hanako character will literally be a Hanako, it seems more like a nickname or something for an unfinished character slot to me.

[game2011]

The explanation being that he chose the artist for their sense of humor, so telling them what jokes to make would defeat the point entirely.

What I mean is that he, like, says "Why not let this chapter be about this topic?" Then he lets the author do everything by himself after that.  Just coming up with a topic, that's all, no details or anything.

[Aba Matindesu!]

Mokou

aaaaand this is officially the best fighter game

[Starxsword]

Actually it looks like it's gonna be a SWR here, considering the low amount of characters, probably the religious arc is not over...

There is no religious arc... It was finalized during Symposium of Mysticism.

Personally, I found SWR dreadfully dull because it was just a bunch of random people doing stuff. I guess it works as a sort of slice-of-life thing, but as a story  I think it failed.

Yeah, different tastes. I enjoyed Scarlet Weather Rhapsody's story layout, more so than Immaterial and Missing Power and Hisoutensoku, but Hisoutensoku wasn't a full game.

[Phasm]

There is no religious arc... It was finalized during Symposium of Mysticism.

Yeah, different tastes. I enjoyed Scarlet Weather Rhapsody's story layout, more so than Immaterial and Missing Power and Hisoutensoku, but Hisoutensoku wasn't a full game.

Well since this is another fighting game, then that means the story, like the other games will have a timeline. I?m already going to say this, if Kokoro is playable, then maybe ? ? ? will be another enemy for her or maybe they know each other, since this is also a sequel for Hopeless Masquerade. I think Hanako will be a subordinate of the real final boss... i mean the translated dialogue implies the encounter with Reimu happens after stage 2 meaning it's stage 3 which means... it can't be the final boss.

[Colticide]

Well since this is another fighting game, then that means the story, like the other games will have a timeline. I?m already going to say this, if Kokoro is playable, then maybe ? ? ? will be another enemy for her or maybe they know each other, since this is also a sequel for Hopeless Masquerade. I think Hanako will be a subordinate of the real final boss... i mean the translated dialogue implies the encounter with Reimu happens after stage 2 meaning it's stage 3 which means... it can't be the final boss.

Don't look into that too hard, it is still just a demo. I may change once it's out.