Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87

[Monkeypro257]

I keep thinking that the secret char's sprite has her body facing away from the screen/Reimu while her head is facing toward the front?     (I look at her feet, and her arms, but I can't make up for where her head is facing...) That hat still looks like a sombrero though...  :V

[Kirin no Sora]

And for the guy above: Rin is gone. It sucks, I know, but ZUN had had literally 10+ games to introduce her in. I'd love for the main character duo to become a trio but it ain't happenin'.

From my point of view, since Rin Satsuki is a kirin, and not a human, she can't become a incident resolver for the most part, as all main characters in the shooters are human to some degree. Things like IN's Human/Non-human team up is likely the only way that she'll show up in the shooters.

This does not mean that she can't appear, though. Fighters and other games with decimal points in them are more flexible, and unlike the PC-98 group, she won't be hit with the question of "Where have you been all this time?", because she technically has not officially shown up yet in-universe, so her history is nonexistent and therefore free to be filled in with anything, really... So the chance for her to show up is actually higher than most of the PC-98 cast because of this.

Personally though, I would prefer that she show up in a manga instead, if only as a cameo in the background at the very least. That would confirm that she exists without actually saying anything about her, leaving her open ended, like so much of the rest of the setting. It would be perfect, in my point of view.

Apologies if this is interrupting anything, but I did want to point that out at the very least.

[Tengukami]

This does not mean that she can't appear, though. Fighters and other games with decimal points in them are more flexible, and unlike the PC-98 group, she won't be hit with the question of "Where have you been all this time?", because she technically has not officially shown up yet in-universe, so her history is nonexistent and therefore free to be filled in with anything, really... So the chance for her to show up is actually higher than most of the PC-98 cast because of this.

Or, more likely, the chance is even lower than a PC-98 character showing up, because they at least existed at some point in the first place.

[FearNagae]

Hello, I made a review and comparison video between 14.5 and 13.5 mainly for people who disliked 13.5.

Link here

[Omegahugger]

From my point of view, since Rin Satsuki is a kirin, and not a human, she can't become a incident resolver for the most part, as all main characters in the shooters are human to some degree.

Hmm...... You sure about that? Mima and Yuuka in the PC-98 games weren't "human to some degree". Most of the cast in PoFV weren't "human to some degree". Nor the cast of previous fighting games (like you say, these games are more flexible, but they still take place in Gensokyo). Plus, fully non-human characters have often teamed up with human characters to resolve incident (IN, SA., often of their own volition.

I don't think "being human to some degree" is a requirement for this sort of thing. It's not like there's some invisible wall preventing a character from moving forward once they get near the cause of an incident, or something like that. Particularly if they're affected by the incident in question. It just seems like their motivation is more selfish than human and human-like characters's ('oh hey, this nonsense could be bad for me so I'd better beat up whoever's causing it!' or something like that).

That being said, I'd be surprised if ZUN planned on using Rin. Or even remembers her by this point. Sadly. =)

By the way, on the subject of PC-98 characters...... Wasn't there some licensing/copyright issue with Amusement Makers preventing him from reusing those characters? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere but I can't remember where.....

[Drake]

Rather than an in-universe explanation for why humans are generally incident-solvers, it's more than ZUN prefers to use humans to solve incidents, and for youkai to cause them (or at most to help the humans resolve them). PoFV and fighters are exceptions largely due to being versus games. Subterranean Animism was even given special plot conveniences in order to have Reimu and Marisa go underground rather than the various youkai (mainly Patchouli and Yukari) doing anything themselves.


The whole "pc-98 copyright amusement makers" deal is total crap made up in order for people upset by other pc-98 characters not returning to then say it's because ZUN is forced to not have them show up, instead of having to deal with the reality of him simply choosing not to bring them back. You've probably read it before, since many people seem happy to throw it around, but it has no credibility whatsoever.

EDIT: To maybe clarify, I'm not saying this myth was purposefully constructed, but rather that some people suggested it somewhere and it spread due to the above, and at some point started to be presented as fact.

[Omegahugger]

The whole "pc-98 copyright amusement makers" deal is total crap made up in order for people upset by other pc-98 characters not returning to then say it's because ZUN is forced to not have them show up, instead of having to deal with the reality of him simply choosing not to bring them back. You've probably read it before, since many people seem happy to throw it around, but it has no credibility whatsoever.

Aha! Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure what the story behind that one was.....

[Soul Devour]

Hmm...... You sure about that? Mima and Yuuka in the PC-98 games weren't "human to some degree". Most of the cast in PoFV weren't "human to some degree". Nor the cast of previous fighting games (like you say, these games are more flexible, but they still take place in Gensokyo). Plus, fully non-human characters have often teamed up with human characters to resolve incident (IN, SA., often of their own volition.

I don't think "being human to some degree" is a requirement for this sort of thing. It's not like there's some invisible wall preventing a character from moving forward once they get near the cause of an incident, or something like that. Particularly if they're affected by the incident in question. It just seems like their motivation is more selfish than human and human-like characters's ('oh hey, this nonsense could be bad for me so I'd better beat up whoever's causing it!' or something like that).

That being said, I'd be surprised if ZUN planned on using Rin. Or even remembers her by this point. Sadly. =)

By the way, on the subject of PC-98 characters...... Wasn't there some licensing/copyright issue with Amusement Makers preventing him from reusing those characters? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere but I can't remember where.....

I'd like to point out that your two examples of non-humans being main characters in an integer game include a PC-98 game and a game where having playable youkai/fairies/etc is pretty required to have a decent sized roster for the type of game. For every single Windows game beyond PoFV, which is a special case, all the main characters have a human element to them. Youkai may tag along in various ways (IN and SA), but a full fledged youkai or fairy has never been a sole main character for the normal integer games. Until I see otherwise, I cannot believe that a youkai could be a solo main character outside of a Phantasmagoria game.

[Tengukami]

Are we excluding photog games, for whatever reason? If so, I'd still point out that you can solo as non-human in IN. They don't just "tag along". I mean, we got a half-ghost maining in TD already. I don't think youkai as a main is as totally out of the question as you say it is.

[Suspicious person]

Are we excluding photog games, for whatever reason? If so, I'd still point out that you can solo as non-human in IN. They don't just "tag along". I mean, we got a half-ghost maining in TD already. I don't think youkai as a main is as totally out of the question as you say it is.

Things might go this way:

Main games: playable characters are more or less human (the youkai only assist them)
Decimal  shmup games: playable characters are NOT human
Decimal fighting games: playable characters are whoever ZUN wants to put in, the criteria followed by those who get in story mode vary

I think the PC 98 criteria for playable Touhou characters should be ignored as it is more or less irrelevant by now.

No idea how things goes for phantasmagoria games, though

[Tengukami]

No idea how things goes for phantasmagoria games, though

I think the phantasmagoria games are like, a Gensokyan free-for-all. The great anti-speciesist equalizers.

[Starxsword]

Spell Card Rules more or less says Humans are supposed to resolve incidents, while Youkai are supposed to cause incidents. This is likely why all main game Touhou have humans as incident resolvers. With the exception of PC-98, but I don't know the validity of using that as a pattern, since it was before Spell Card Rules.
Fighting games, side games, and Phantasmagoria games don't have this rule. So, really, anything goes when talking about a fighting game. Fighting games do tend higher stage bosses in them.

[Tengukami]

Wait, since when do photog and phantasmagoria games not abide the Spell Card Rules? StB and DS are like the essence of the Spell Card Rules.

I dunno, I'm starting to think there is no neat and tidy rule or system about what species can be playable, as much as we would like there to be one.

[Colticide]

If we remember that the spell cards rules act like a duel in most cases, the way you fight could be changed before the fight begins to what we see in pofv, stb, and fighting games.

[Starxsword]

Wait, since when do photog and phantasmagoria games not abide the Spell Card Rules? StB and DS are like the essence of the Spell Card Rules.

They aren't incidents.

[Tengukami]

If we remember that the spell cards rules act like a duel in most cases, the way you fight could be changed before the fight begins to what we see in pofv, stb, and fighting games.

Well with the fighting games, sure, as there is little danmaku involved, but is there any evidence the Spell Card Rules are disregarded in phantasmagoria or photog games? I mean, the whole premise of the photog games rests upon the beauty of the danmaku, which is sorta crucial to the Spell Card Rules in the first place, and the phantasmagoria games certainly have their share as well. Absent anything saying "nope, Spell Card Rules don't apply here", I'm not seeing it, to be honest.

They aren't incidents.

The fighting games certainly were. PoFV was an incident, too. For the photog games, it's debatable -  Aya asking random youkai and humans to do their best could be an incident, in a sense, not to mention the arrival of Hatate and her whole rivalry thing in DS. I'd say ISC was probably breaking the Spell Card Rules in the service of a major incident to be resolved, but it sure opened the door for humans and youkai alike to be able to break that rule (if it indeed did - if it didn't, well, add that to the list of youkai-as-PC games where the rules still applied).

Again, I think we might be squinting really hard at the games trying to find a Human v. Youkai as playable character pattern where there isn't one.

[Drake]

I don't think there's a real restriction on what characters can be playable, no. I was talking specifically about the use of "incident resolvers", which is mostly about ZUN's preference to use certain characters for certain kinds of "incidents". He tends towards humans as those who "solve incidents" as a sort of general role in Gensokyo, but there's no in-universe reason why this would be the case. Trying to find a hard rule seems silly.

[Omegahugger]

For every single Windows game beyond PoFV, which is a special case, all the main characters have a human element to them. Youkai may tag along in various ways (IN and SA), but a full fledged youkai or fairy has never been a sole main character for the normal integer games.

Sure, if you start imposing a whole bunch of conditions (must be after PoFV, must be the sole main character, must be fully youkai (ie, not-quite-human characters like Youmu (half-ghost) and Sanae (living god), and even Sakuya (whom Remilia says can no longer be considered human because of the time she's spent at the SDM) don't count), must be an integer game...) you can make any claim stick... That's kind of cheating though. =)

In IN, the devil team is led by Remilia with Sakuya merely tagging along ("Sakuya, I didn't really ask you to tag along." "What are you saying? I'm simply worried." etc..). Going out to punish those who stole away the moon (ie, resolving the Imperishable Night incident) is her initiative.

In SA, both human characters involved in SA pretty much ignore the incident at first ("Confused, the two girls wondered what to do about the geyser, so they decided to build a spa.", because... yeah. That sounds like a reasonable course of action. =) ) Then various youkai respond to the incident and take charge of the situation through the intermediate of Reimu or Marisa. Technically the latter two are the playable characters, but they're not the ones with the initiative to resolve the incident - youkai are.

In ISC, pretty much every youkai (of note) in Gensokyo heads out to deal with Seija. Only a small percentage of characters in that game are human. Not to mention the sole main character in the game is Seija. Sure, it's not an integer-game, but I really don't see why this matters - Gensokyo is Gensokyo. =P

Gonna have to agree with Tengukami on the whole "trying too hard to find a pattern where there's none" thing... ZUN will make a character playable if he wants to, not because past games unintentionally follow a trend or not.....

[Colticide]

Well with the fighting games, sure, as there is little danmaku involved, but is there any evidence the Spell Card Rules are disregarded in phantasmagoria or photog games? I mean, the whole premise of the photog games rests upon the beauty of the danmaku, which is sorta crucial to the Spell Card Rules in the first place, and the phantasmagoria games certainly have their share as well. Absent anything saying "nope, Spell Card Rules don't apply here", I'm not seeing it, to be honest.

Sorry I don't think I explained what I meant very well, I am saying the spell cards rules apply, but how they are acted out can change depending on the ones involved, like say limited flying or only certain amount of bombs used during the "match". PoFV has you being able to take multiple hit before you go down when normally it's OHKO (I know this is more gameplay mechanic but this can also translate into how the battle goes, and with the OHKO we already know that if Reimu looses in a incident she just try again till she wins.), and for StB and DS the "limits" of the battle are placed more on the player (Aya or Hatate).

I hope that makes sense, I'm seeing more and more my typing skills are poor when it comes to communication.

[Maple]

I read someone's headcanon (not mine) saying that if you bring outside items that affect the opponent's attacks (ie. Aya's and Hatate's cameras, Seija's items), Spell Card rules are void and everything you do is legal and accepted. This doesn't apply to items that aid your own attacks (ie. Marisa's hakkeko, Youmu's blades, Nitori's gadgets).

I don't know if this idea has any canon support.

[Colticide]

I read someone's headcanon (not mine) saying that if you bring outside items that affect the opponent's attacks (ie. Aya's and Hatate's cameras, Seija's items), Spell Card rules are void and everything you do is legal and accepted. This doesn't apply to items that aid your own attacks (ie. Marisa's hakkeko, Youmu's blades, Nitori's gadgets).

I don't know if this idea has any canon support.

By no means no. Aya's and Hatate's cameras are a special case, I can't find any good evidence but it can be assumed that the camera can act like a hakkero and the viewfinder is a form of danmaku or something. It's really hard to say cause nothing from what I've read has said definitively what it is. (Might be best to not think about it too hard.)

[Suspicious person]

Well with the fighting games, sure, as there is little danmaku involved

Fighting games respect spell card rules, they only feature more physical attacks

I'd say ISC was probably breaking the Spell Card Rules in the service of a major incident to be resolved, but it sure opened the door for humans and youkai alike to be able to break that rule

Dunno, spell cards rules were SUPPOSEDLY broken here, while in fact it's possible to clear all scenes without using any items, meaning that the spell cards rules is still technically respected, ISC just feature difficult spell cards

I read someone's headcanon (not mine) saying that if you bring outside items that affect the opponent's attacks (ie. Aya's and Hatate's cameras, Seija's items), Spell Card rules are void and everything you do is legal and accepted. This doesn't apply to items that aid your own attacks (ie. Marisa's hakkeko, Youmu's blades, Nitori's gadgets).

Now, that sound like cheating! Camera and bullet freeze are not spell cards but they can ruin the carefully elaborated pattern of spell cards and defeat the purpose of 50-50 chance of victory in spell card battles. Do STB, DS and GFW break more spell cards rules than ISC ever does :wat: ?(their ISCness is ISCer than how ISC is!)

[Clarste]

Gonna have to agree with Tengukami on the whole "trying too hard to find a pattern where there's none" thing... ZUN will make a character playable if he wants to, not because past games unintentionally follow a trend or not.....

I agree that in the end the only thing that controls who's playable and who's not is ZUN's whims, but I also think there's pretty strong evidence that he's not going to put a non-human lead in one of the mainline shooting games, unless it's another Phantasmagoria. From one perspective, yes, it looks like people have to keep adding all these disclaimers to make everything fit neatly, but it only looks that way because you're focusing on the details while ignoring the narrative themes of Gensokyo. Youkai cause incidents, humans resolve them. This is something they say over and over again in various side materials and manga, and plays out in the main games by always having humans involved in incident resolution. Is this a hard and fast unbreakable rule? Of course not, and in the end ZUN can do whatever he wants, but to me this is something that feels integral to the setting (from his perspective) and he's not going to change it on a whim.

Is PoFV an exception? Well, obviously, but given that it's an exception to pretty much every other "rule" of the main series Windows games (number of stages, number of bosses, basic gameplay mechanics, the stage/boss music division... just... everything), I don't think it's particularly meaningful to point out. You might as well say that because it's an exception (as well as StB and other non-main series games) we also have no reason to believe that the next main series game will probably have 6 stages and an extra stage. Which I personally would think is a pretty safe bet to make.

[Tengukami]

Is PoFV an exception? Well, obviously, but given that it's an exception to pretty much every other "rule" of the main series Windows games (number of stages, number of bosses, basic gameplay mechanics, the stage/boss music division... just... everything), I don't think it's particularly meaningful to point out. You might as well say that because it's an exception (as well as StB and other non-main series games) we also have no reason to believe that the next main series game will probably have 6 stages and an extra stage. Which I personally would think is a pretty safe bet to make.

But as has been pointed out, PoFV is not the only exception. We've seen youkai (or at least non-human/not-fully-human) people taking part in resolving incidents in a few Windows games, which is a bit more of an exception than which games have six stages.

I mean, I guess if you're saying human PCs are likely, well yeah - this is almost a truism. Non-humans involved in incident resolution is just not really super exceptional and far-fetched.

[Clarste]

But as has been pointed out, PoFV is not the only exception. We've seen youkai (or at least non-human/not-fully-human) people taking part in resolving incidents in a few Windows games, which is a bit more of an exception than which games have six stages.

I mean, I guess if you're saying human PCs are likely, well yeah - this is almost a truism. Non-humans involved in incident resolution is just not really super exceptional and far-fetched.

Non-humans have only participated in main integer windows games when they were part of a partner system (with a human). That's not a difficult thing to point out. Now, you could say that Remilia and Yuyuko were actually the ones leading Sakuya and Youmu around, but I don't think that really matters. Heck, the game included a human-youkai meter as a fundamental game mechanic. The fact that you could choose to play solo (after you beat the game, and the story acts like they're still there, and because of the meter system it ends up as sort of a challenge mode) doesn't strike me as at all meaningful.

When there have been no solo youkai protagonists in 6-14 (in a non spin-off, although I seriously don't see why I need to mention that the StB spin-off series is unlike the main series in many ways), I don't see why I can't say the idea is far-fetched. Throw in ZUN's "humans solve incidents" thing and the general philosophical tone of Gensokyo and all I have to say about it is that I'd happily bet you a hundred dollars that the next main series game won't have any solo youkai protagonists unless it's a phantasmagoria or otherwise different-from-usual thing. You can feel free to disagree with me in a discussion, but I'd still make that bet.

[Tengukami]

Non-humans have only participated in main integer windows games when they were part of a partner system (with a human). That's not a difficult thing to point out. Now, you could say that Remilia and Yuyuko were actually the ones leading Sakuya and Youmu around, but I don't think that really matters. Heck, the game included a human-youkai meter as a fundamental game mechanic. The fact that you could choose to play solo (after you beat the game, and the story acts like they're still there, and because of the meter system it ends up as sort of a challenge mode) doesn't strike me as at all meaningful.

So TD doesn't count then? Or the solo players in IN ("not meaningful" without a reason is by itself not very meaningful)?

Yeah, this sounds like "under conditions X, Y and Z, only humans have resolved incidents".

I'd happily bet you a hundred dollars that the next main series game won't have any solo youkai protagonists unless it's a phantasmagoria or otherwise different-from-usual thing. You can feel free to disagree with me in a discussion, but I'd still make that bet.

"Otherwise different-from-unusual" sounds too broad for me to make that bet with you, but I really appreciate your permission to disagree! :V

[Clarste]

So TD doesn't count then? Or the solo players in IN ("not meaningful" without a reason is by itself not very meaningful)?

TD had Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, and Youmu. Not sure how that's an exception, unless you're saying Youmu isn't human? That sort of thing might actually be the root of this disagreement, I suppose. Solo doesn't count in IN because the story acts as if it's not happening. So even when you play Solo Remilia, Sakuya's still hanging out somewhere offscreen, meaning that she's participating, even if Remilia does all the fighting herself. I mean,do we both agree that Yukari participates in SA, even if she never appears on-screen or fights?

"Otherwise different-from-unusual" sounds too broad for me to make that bet with you

Vertical scrolling shooting game with 6 stages and an Extra stage, with AI bosses that use spellcards at health intervals. Basically I kind of assume that ZUN actually means something when he numbers games with integers as opposed to decimals.

[Tengukami]

Hm. Well, I think the basis of our disagreement is only over the degree of unlikeliness; not whether or not it's unlikely. So I'm good with simply agree to disagree here rather than dig in my heels over this.

At the very least I'm sure we can agree TH15 will be sidescrolling and feature playable Maribel and Renko.

[Clarste]

At the very least I'm sure we can agree TH15 will be sidescrolling and feature playable Maribel and Renko.

Of course.

But just for reference, why do you consider TD an exception? I won't argue with it or anything, I just want to know.

[Tengukami]

Yeah, pretty much Youmu being half-ghost (I think including Sanae is a stretch; though a "living god" she is after all human). And I also think the solo peeps in IN being unlockable as opposed to there by default is iffy - plenty of youkai were unlockable in PoFV, too, and the individual non-humans in IN had their own personal stories in the game.

But, as I said, seems we only differ over a matter of degrees, so I won't be losing sleep over this. And though I don't have $100 to be throwing around over a wager, I'd be happy to make a friendly bet of some other form. Maybe a fanfic of reasonable, short length with the plot of the winner's choosing?