Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87

[Hawk]

What is the input for Reimus Ying-Yang-toss? I assumed it's just holding B and any direction, but sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and sometimes she first uses the direction-B attack, followed by the Orb-toss without a pause in between.

That input is [B.] (hold B).  It doesn't matter what direction (though the direction will change how the orb is tossed once it's summoned).

If you simply hold B from the get-go, you will a B move (dictated by which direction you hold, just like normal) followed by the orb.  This is because the game will always do the first thing it can (this is pretty standard for fighting games).  If you don't want to use a B move, you can partition the charge in another move.  For example:

5A (hold B during the startup animation) > Orb (if you start holding B too late into the 5A, you will instead whiff cancel into 5B, and then into [B.])
Backdash (hold B during the backdash since you aren't allowed to attack during back dashes) > Orb

Note that you can quite literally hold the Orb infinitely (it shoots when you let go).  If you aren't seeing the Orb at all, it's likely you are not holding B long enough.  You need to be holding B after you finish your recovery frames from whatever move you've done before.  You need to be neutral while having held B for long enough.

I'm pretty certain skillful button charge partitioning will be pretty important for this game.

[Hawk]

Reimu full moveset with damage numbers.  Ignoring proration for now until we understand it better (though it looks at first glance to be a pretty standard "different values for proration and initial proration" system).
Spellcard individual damage counts may be slightly off.  Hard to test (though freezing proration to 100% in cheat engine suddenly popped into my mind).

My goal was to be comprehensive, not concise.  In most fighting games, there are pretty standard rules for "fallbacks".  That is, if your character doesn't have a 4A, pressing 4A will give you 5A, and things like that.  Until we fully understand how the fallback system of this game works, I've opted to test each of the 9 directions for each button input, just to be safe.  Once we do have that information, this could look much prettier (and therefore easier to comprehend).


=== Legend ===

"A": Melee attack
"B": Projectile attack
"C": Special attack
"D": Dash ("while dashing")
"4D": Backdash
"j.": While not on the middle plane ("grounded")
"t.": j., but only in the top half of the stage
"b.": j., but only in the bottom half of the stage
"c.": Must be close to the opponent
"f.": Must be far away from the opponent
{}: Optional
(*/*/*/...): Any of the delimited inputs are sufficient
() after damage: Total damage if all hits connect (prorated)
>: Followup input
x: Unknown number
[*.]: Button held
]*[: Button released

If not otherwise specified, any move may be done during a dash instantly (lagless cancelling of the dash).

Counterhits add damage.  It seems to mostly be a 20% increase across the board, though there are exceptions.  5C, for example, only gets a 10% increase, but Orb (another projectile), gets the full 20%.  More experimentation is needed.

All characters in the demo have 10000 health and take the same amount of damage.

Spellcards: Additional meter scales up to a 60% damage increase at 200% (100% meter = 100% damage, 150% meter = 130% damage, 200% meter = 160% damage).  Stacks multiplicatively with the counterhit bonus for 192% damage!

=== Reimu ===

Autocombo order: c.5A > c.5A > f.5A > 6A > (4/6)C (approx: 1396 out of corner, 1582 midscreen, 1879 into corner)

(4/c.5)A: 200
f.5A (also D5A, strangely): 400
6A: 650
{j.}(1/2/3)A: 600
{j.}(7/8/9)A: 600
j.(4/5)A: 400
j.6A: 600
D6A: 440

D5A lets you use f.5A up close!  Can easily be done by pianoing D~A as quick as you can.  It feels like even a 1 frame piano is sufficient to get the f.5A.

{j.}(4/5)B: 130 * 3 (321)
{j.}(1/2/3)B: Same as 5B, but angled down by 45 degrees
{j.}(7/8/9)B: Same as 5B, but angled up by 45 degrees
{j.}6B: 150 * 4 (501)
D6B: 660
[B.]: Summon orb
> ]B[: Release orb (800)
Holding directions will charge how the orb is fired.
4/5/6: Orb is shot straight forward
1/2/3: Orb is shot angled down by 60~ degrees
7/8/9: Orb is shot angled up by 60~ degrees

5C: 200 * 3 (510)
{j.}(4/6)C: (20 + 300) * 10 (998)
{j.}(1/2/3)C: 100 (places marker)
> {j.}(1/2/3)C: 400 * x (could personally only get 4 hits max for 1419)
{j.}(7/8/9)C: 700
t.5C: 400 + 600 (955)
b.5C: Same as t.5C, but mirrored across the ground plane
[C]: 150 * x (777 with max Occult Balls)
Occult attack.  Shots as many projectiles as Reimu has Occult Balls.  Cannot be used if you have 0 Occult Balls.

Spell Cards:

Fantasy Heaven: 350 * 7 (2079) (This math doesn't add up and I'm not sure why.  I'm getting an additional 3-4 points of damage near the end per ball.)

Pillar: 100 * 21 + 1200 (2838)

Orb: 100 * x (I've gotten up to 15 with the opponent jumping down into the corner)
> Any button (even declare and dash): 200 * x (Wide variety of hits)
THIS SPELLCARD IS BUGGED.  IF AT ANY POINT YOU PAUSE DURING THE MATCH, REIMU WILL ALWAYS AUTOMATICALLY RELEASE THE ORB THE FIRST FRAME SHE CAN.

I believe this is everything.  If I'm missing something, let me know!

[cuc]

Some post-demo speculation on roster:

a. This is a general observation about ZUN's attitude I already had before the demo: the non-protagonist characters from the IaMP to Soku era will not be playable again.

Creating fighting game sprites is the most costly part of the development. Each new playable character means an additional large chunk of development cost.

If the chance to make fighting game sprites for a Touhou character is that precious, it makes sense to not use it twice on the same non-protagonist character. ZUN would've preferred giving the opportunity to characters that have never been featured in a fighting game.

b. Several HM characters are unlikely to make the cut to ULiL, or at least will not have their own Story Mode routes.

The story premise as seen in the demo puts severe restrictions on what the characters can do: each character will borrow the power of an urban legend through the Occult Balls. In the Story Mode, it seems each opponent will bring forth an Occult Ball and cast at least one "Weird Spell Card". The Story Mode's emphasis on the "gather seven Occult Balls" rumor, seems to indicate that the general story flow will involve something like the player character defeating 6 other Occult Ball owners and taking their Balls, then the boss showing up.

I think there are a few issues with connecting the HM characters to this premise. The religious characters are time-displaced ancient ascetics who are disconnected from urban life; unlike Reimu and Marisa, who have adopted the legends as their playthings, or Kasen, who wishes to take back her arm, it's hard to imagine the Taoists and Buddhists taking an interest in the vulgar (see the WaHH spoilers) power of the urban legends.

Gameplay-wise, aside from the random effects, ULiL has taken a back-to--basic approach, scaling back on the experiments of HM, removing customization, freeform flight, popularity and character-exclusive systems. The exclusive system-heavy characters of HM will need extensive reworking.

Having more than a dozen characters, each with their own story, music theme and stage (some stages may even have its own theme separate from character themes) would also be a lot of work in terms of writing, music and art. I think one reason SWR could have that many story routes and new music themes might be that its development took a real long time, which is not the case with ULiL.

Mamizou has good reasons to be in ULiL: she told Reimu and friends about manipulating urban legends with rumors in the first place. The other HM characters, I'm not so sure.

However, I do think there will be another game - say, Touhou 15.5 - that further builds upon ULiL. The HM characters should have a chance of appearing in that game.

[Hawk]

The exclusive system-heavy characters of HM will need extensive reworking.

This is probably my biggest concern right now.  The character systems were one of the coolest parts about HM, and while some were just straight power (Reimu, Ichirin), some affected the gameplay significantly and felt like part of the character's identity (Futo, Byakuren).

I personally think we'll be getting every character from HM back, because the sprites are already there and ready to be used.  But I am worried that certain characters won't feel as cool, even though the base system appeals to me much more than HM's.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, crossup protection is still in place.

[FearNagae]

This is probably my biggest concern right now.  The character systems were one of the coolest parts about HM, and while some were just straight power (Reimu, Ichirin), some affected the gameplay significantly and felt like part of the character's identity (Futo, Byakuren).

I personally think we'll be getting every character from HM back, because the sprites are already there and ready to be used.  But I am worried that certain characters won't feel as cool, even though the base system appeals to me much more than HM's.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, crossup protection is still in place.

I believe it's not difficult to carry those abilities over for tasofro.

Though I wonder what "crossup protection" are you talking about?

[Gpop]

This is probably my biggest concern right now.  The character systems were one of the coolest parts about HM, and while some were just straight power (Reimu, Ichirin), some affected the gameplay significantly and felt like part of the character's identity (Futo, Byakuren).

While some character-specific systems were good, in the end some of them were too gimmicky that felt like they restricted a lot of the character's potential overall that prove to be more frustrating that good (ie. Byakuren, Koishi, Miko, etc).

Also, in case anyone was wondering, crossup protection is still in place.

This is not surprising. This isn't an HM/ULIL only thing. This is pretty common in anime fighters overall. Melty Blood has it as well and that's probably the most popular anime fighter out there (at least for it's time).

[FearNagae]

I don't get what this crossup protection are you guys talking about. Is it about bullets hitting from behind can be blocked as long as you walk away from your opponent?

[Sahgren]

More or less, yeah. Crossup protection tends to come in 2 different ways: The walking backwards animation makes you block everything, and you don't have to change which direction you're blocking in if you haven't fully recovered from blocking an attack. Both irregardless of what side of you your opponent is on. The first makes crossups in general harder to pull off, and the second prevents people from throwing out an attack that lasts a long time, then jumping back and forth over your head to force you to change which direction you're blocking while the attack is still going on.

Edit: And no offense, but you could've found the answer to this by Googling "crossup protection" and clicking on the non-Twitter results. There are a couple different entries that explain it.

[Aya Reiko]

Creating fighting game sprites is the most costly part of the development. Each new playable character means an additional large chunk of development cost.

And this is why next to no one does 2D anymore.  In this day and age, it is plain and simply cheaper and easier to go the 2.5D or 3D route.

[Gpop]

Well guys, I made a small combo video for Kasen after 2 days of experimenting with her

She's fun. If Koishi isn't in the game I might main her in the end, but again, I have to see what other characters are in the final game when in comes out.

[FearNagae]

Edit: And no offense, but you could've found the answer to this by Googling "crossup protection" and clicking on the non-Twitter results. There are a couple different entries that explain it.

Lol. I know what "crossup protection" is, but I need to double check it because I don't see a reason for people to complain about it.
Crossups are still very potent, though maybe less from Soku.

[Koog]

My mains in HM were Koishi, Mamizou and Nitori.
My main here is Marisa.
Here's hoping Mamizou to come back.

[Phasm]

I?ve noticed a patern here:

IAMP-HM
SWR-ULIL
UNL-

That would mean that ULIL will get an expansion like SWR had with UNL! HM had the begging of the flight battle system, ULIL will modify it like SWR did with IAMP so if Zun follows this pattern, then that would mean ULIL will get an expansion in the future!

[Colticide]

I?ve noticed a patern here:

IAMP-HM
SWR-ULIL
UNL-

That would mean that ULIL will get an expansion like SWR had with UNL! HM had the begging of the flight battle system, ULIL will modify it like SWR did with IAMP so if Zun follows this pattern, then that would mean ULIL will get an expansion in the future!

It might. Its hard to say that is a pattern as we only have the first gen fighter and starting on the second gen, once it happens at least twice or three times then yeah I'd say there is a pattern.

[Hawk]

So, uh, crossup protection may not be in the game.  I'm getting different results now that I was in my (admittedly sleep deprived) tests last night.

And by crossup protection, I want to be clear that I only mean the grace period where you can hold 6 to block if the enemy crosses you up.  I can't think of a game that requires you to block projectiles based on their position instead of the enemy character's, so to me that's not protection, that's just...blocking.

If this is true (it's remarkably hard to test without a second person to control blocking), then I'm pretty happy.

Tested with Reimu's 2C and 8C, both moves that have strong crossup potential.

[Phasm]

I?ve given it some thought and if HM characters other than the usual 2 are in the game... Zun would need to find or create Urban Legends for them. Honestly for characters like Kokoro it wouldn't be that hard, but for characters like Nitori... and like cuc said maybe the Buddists and Taoists probably woudn't be interested in Urban Legends. Characters like Sekibanki  and Orin might make it.

[Starxsword]

Well, its been done in Immaterial and Missing Power, it may be done here too. If it is really that tough to squeeze them in the story, why not just make it so that those character don't have a story arc and only appear in VS mode?

[Phasm]

Well, its been done in Immaterial and Missing Power, it may be done here too. If it is really that tough to squeeze them in the story, why not just make it so that those character don't have a story arc and only appear in VS mode?

With Meiling, and every character from UNL that isn't Sanae, Meiling and Cirno.

[Colticide]

Well, its been done in Immaterial and Missing Power, it may be done here too. If it is really that tough to squeeze them in the story, why not just make it so that those character don't have a story arc and only appear in VS mode?

Well the Issues I can see being that since the games movement and combat are different and if there are new characters (which Kasen is one), they most likely have to go through balancing and a whole bunch of stuff to get it to work. During the Skull girls kickstarter for a new character the devs explained how and why it's so difficult and expensive to make a new character to a roster.

[Fumi]

Well the Issues I can see being that since the games movement and combat are different and if there are new characters (which Kasen is one), they most likely have to go through balancing and a whole bunch of stuff to get it to work. During the Skull girls kickstarter for a new character the devs explained how and why it's so difficult and expensive to make a new character to a roster.

Safe bet is only 8 new characters. Actually I'm surprised they anounced a game so fast, asuming they begun development at least this year, since fighting games take a lot of time to be made. Skullgirls was an example, in Smash Sakurai explained it might take months to make a character, Mewtwo began development in Nov and probably will be finished on March, almost 5 months. Finally check out the guy here at the forums making Smash Touhou, it's been three months and Reimu is still in development.

Adding a character needs to meet various criteria namely 1-Being popular, 2-Being relevant to the story, 3-Being viable as a character. Adding a character by itself is important development for the game so it can't just be "we will add ie Rumia and other 15 characters", the character needs to be important because they are gonna be a few (Counting Reimu, Marisa, Kasen and new character leaves us with 6 free slots)

Now when it comes to HM characters I think it's mostly believed they will return, however maybe they are not. Well, even if they return they need to be tweaked to the new mechanics, need their own gimmicks, which special stays, remove their special gimmick from HM and new artwork (for dialog/char screen and last words, idk even if they are irrelevant to the story it will look weird to have half of the roster in alphes style) which will take a lot of work, it can be as time consuming as adding a new character. Besides I don't want HM characters to be forced into the plot, neither I want a mess of a story like PoFV was.

Most probably ZUN will focus on the plot rather on returning characters and since it's already going to be a lot of work to add new characters the best thing (At least for Tasofro) would be to leave them out instead of adding irrelevant characters.

[game2011]

Safe bet is only 8 new characters. Actually I'm surprised they anounced a game so fast, asuming they begun development at least this year, since fighting games take a lot of time to be made. Skullgirls was an example, in Smash Sakurai explained it might take months to make a character, Mewtwo began development in Nov and probably will be finished on March, almost 5 months. Finally check out the guy here at the forums making Smash Touhou, it's been three months and Reimu is still in development.

Not sure how reliable this is, but according to Ed Boon in an interview about Injustice, a character takes only 6 weeks to make.

[Colticide]

Not sure how reliable this is, but according to Ed Boon on an interview about Injustice, a character takes only 6 weeks to make.

Ed boon is also insane as well. But he also has a larger team then lab 0 or tasofro.

[nyttyn]

Adding a character needs to meet various criteria namely 1-Being popular, 2-Being relevant to the story, 3-Being viable as a character. Adding a character by itself is important development for the game so it can't just be "we will add ie Rumia and other 15 characters", the character needs to be important because they are gonna be a few (Counting Reimu, Marisa, Kasen and new character leaves us with 6 free slots)

1 and 3 are very important, 2 not so much so. ZUN can and has molded the plot around characters (how most of the SWR cast got involved, hisou as a whole, and even HM which was best about this had the mask of hope dropping into hell was basically an excuse for Koishi to make an appearance).

There also seems to be an additional criteria in which 'weaker' characters on the canon power scale don't get to make it into the fighters. Notice how the overwhelming majority of fighter characters are stage 4 or later - the only exceptions being Cirno, Nitori, and Meiling.

[Colticide]

There also seems to be an additional criteria in which 'weaker' characters on the canon power scale don't get to make it into the fighters. Notice how the overwhelming majority of fighter characters are stage 4 or later - the only exceptions being Cirno, Nitori, and Meiling.

I'd disagree, if we take the spell card rules from the shooters and look at how the fighting games are, they are nothing more then modified versions of the shooters. The rules can be made before the match on how it will go down and that's why even normal humans could technically win. If we look at some of the "weaker" ones all they would have to do is have the rules be you can only take so many hits, or some attacks can be considered two hits. It's all based on how you look at the rules, but even if we get say Rumia in a fighting game it could be done, but her personality and sheer laziness would discount her out of such games I feel.

[cuc]

I should have put this in the earlier post (and maybe into every new game announcement post), but fandom popularity means nothing to ZUN. Fandom popularity only matters when your goal is to please the fans, which is emphatically never what ZUN has wanted to do. He makes what was interesting to himself, as far as his resources can allow him.

Safe bet is only 8 new characters

During HM's development, Tasofro said due to the higher resolution, making one HM character is harder than previous games. So...

Oh, you mean "only 8 characters in total"? Yeah, I was wondering about such a possibility.

In any case, I'm setting my expectation about the number of playable characters low, so that I may be pleasantly surprised by the actual game.

[Colticide]

During HM's development, Tasofro said due to the higher resolution, making one HM character is harder than previous games. So...

The sprites in HM look amazing and I was really surprised on how smooth they looked, but the amount of time that must have been put into those... uhg...
You think there might be a possibility of working with 3d models? Getting the models made is the hard part but after that all that's left is to create the animations which is a lot easier then with sprites. Guilty Gear Xrd recently came out and I thought those where sprites at first but are actually 3d models, think Tasofro might hit that route one day?

[Romantique Tp]

Too many people in Japan have toasters for computers at home. To get that GGXrd look the models need to be quite high poly and the shader effects needs to be precise, or else it will look like low budget anime CGI. A Touhou fighter would also have plenty of particle effects.

That doesn't mean a 3D Touhou fighter can't possibly happen, just don't expect it to look anywhere as good as GGXrd.

[Starxsword]

I'd disagree, if we take the spell card rules from the shooters and look at how the fighting games are, they are nothing more then modified versions of the shooters. The rules can be made before the match on how it will go down and that's why even normal humans could technically win.

Yes, technically, they could win, but the odds are astronomically low. Kind of like what happens in Great Fairy Wars. Cirno is not going to beat Marisa.
Marisa has complained more than once in her Grimoire that Suika uses some shady attacks.
That said, none of this should have any relevance to if the character belongs in a story arc or not.

[Leon゠Helsing]

Too many people in Japan have toasters for computers at home. To get that GGXrd look the models need to be quite high poly and the shader effects needs to be precise, or else it will look like low budget anime CGI. A Touhou fighter would also have plenty of particle effects.

That doesn't mean a 3D Touhou fighter can't possibly happen, just don't expect it to look anywhere as good as GGXrd.

Let's not forget the crapload of trickery used to make it "look" 2D, including emulating 2D errors and stuff. Would be pretty taxing on the system, I'd imagine.

[Fumi]

1 and 3 are very important, 2 not so much so. ZUN can and has molded the plot around characters (how most of the SWR cast got involved, hisou as a whole, and even HM which was best about this had the mask of hope dropping into hell was basically an excuse for Koishi to make an appearance).

True indeed, however the difference here radicates that Tenshi's incident caused trouble to everyone both the earthquake affecting the shrine and gathering temperaments. This time it's more complicated, I mean, I do want the HM cast back (I loved every one of them) but characters like Futo or Ichirin had no motive to use the Urban Legends. Miko and Byakuren could probably do but with what purpose? HM taught the religious figures to not be too greedy when it comes to controlling the village's feelings.

There also seems to be an additional criteria in which 'weaker' characters on the canon power scale don't get to make it into the fighters. Notice how the overwhelming majority of fighter characters are stage 4 or later - the only exceptions being Cirno, Nitori, and Meiling.

That's because most relevant characters appear from stage 4 onwards. Meiling appeared in IaMP because the team at Tasofro liked her very much for the game. Soku's story mode is a joke lmao so it has no relevance.

I should have put this in the earlier post (and maybe into every new game announcement post), but fandom popularity means nothing to ZUN. Fandom popularity only matters when your goal is to please the fans, which is emphatically never what ZUN has wanted to do. He makes what was interesting to himself, as far as his resources can allow him.

When I refered to popularity it was more or less like the character being used a lot in canon works, ie Yuyuko, Yukari, Remilia, etc... all these are important characters when compared to ie: Kyouko, Sekibanki, Hina, etc... so these are more likely to get in.

Oh, you mean "only 8 characters in total"? Yeah, I was wondering about such a possibility.

In any case, I'm setting my expectation about the number of playable characters low, so that I may be pleasantly surprised by the actual game.

No, I was refering to 8 new characters not featured in HM (One of them is Kasen though):
-Reimu
-Marisa
-Kasen
-Free slot for old char
-Free slot for old char
-Free slot for old char
-Free slot for old char
-Free slot for old char
-Boss character (new)

However like you mentioned Tasofro had trouble with the engine and were beginng from scratch. Something is for sure, they already got Reimu, Marisa and Kasen done, the mechanics ready and might reuse backgrounds (Human village?) so they could use more of that free time to work on a larger roster. If that were the case I would love to see at least one rep from each shoting game.