Author Topic: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)  (Read 430770 times)

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #360 on: June 07, 2013, 03:39:36 AM »
She'll also be returning as Extra boss.

And I shall fight her as Marisa.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #361 on: June 07, 2013, 04:36:33 AM »
The following is also a pattern, kind of, but it is interesting if you think about it.
Stage 1 takes place in the Misty Lake, which was shown in EoSD.
Stage 2 takes place in the Human Village, but it was shown in IN, which might not make it a pattern anymore.
Stage 3 takes place in the Bamboo Forest of the Lost, which also takes place in IN too.
PCB takes place in the Hakugyokurou, which is basically another world, so IN has to put another stage to replace it.
Following this pattern, which I doubt is going to happen, but as I said is interesting:
Stage 4 should be a place in MoF since PoFV didn't really feature a whole new area besides Higan. The stage might be on Youkai Mountain.
Stage 5 would take place in the Underworld, which is in SA.
Stage 6 could take place in the Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum‎ which is obviously TD.
UFO is skipped because Makai is another world.
But this is just for if I were making the game. I'm pretty sure this won't happen. It's just a coincidence to have all familiar stages.

Cirno might have been placed in to have a Misty Lake midboss, and maybe because Cirno is really popular. I am also creeped out of the second boss. All the species so far have been new too.
The music can be catchy after a while. I really like the stage themes and the boss theme of stage 1. Also, stage 3's stage theme has the main theme of Touhou in it. Which the original Bamboo Forest of the Lost stage theme in IN has too. They also sound alike, so there is a chance the stage 3 theme is just a remix. But now that I think about it, stage 1's theme also sounds like it was the Misty Lake theme in EoSD, but made more upbeat and mysterious.
Currently a normal player

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #362 on: June 07, 2013, 05:13:03 AM »
Stage 1 takes place over Misty Lake, Cirno's usual hangout. Pretty simple connection right there.
It really is a simple connection. One wonders then, why it needs to be said.
I was wondering how Cirno would fit in among the new characters if that western-eastern idea were to hold true. It could very easily be that Cirno's appearance holds no intrinsic value, yeah.

Zun's really rocking it out with this one. "Hey look, a cute little mermaid!" *cue bass-heavy distorted guitar riffs*


Helepolis

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #363 on: June 07, 2013, 08:12:12 AM »
PCB takes place in the Hakugyokurou, which is basically another world, so IN has to put another stage to replace it.
PCB takes at more locations than just the Netherworld you know, just saying.

Following this pattern, which I doubt is going to happen, but as I said is interesting:
Stage 4 should be a place in MoF since PoFV didn't really feature a whole new area besides Higan. The stage might be on Youkai Mountain.
Stage 5 would take place in the Underworld, which is in SA.
Stage 6 could take place in the Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum‎ which is obviously TD.
UFO is skipped because Makai is another world.
But this is just for if I were making the game. I'm pretty sure this won't happen. It's just a coincidence to have all familiar stages.
Has been mentioned before we're most likely revisiting previous locations. After all, this is Gensokyo and it is not like as if Makai hasn't been visited before. After three familiar locations I am not quite sure if we can call it a coincidence any more. Stage 2 can be somehow questionable but 1 and 3 are spot on previous locations. Also there is no such thing as Stage 5 being SA, it could be MoF or 10D or maybe even UFO location. Otherwise Bamboo Forest would've been stage 4 and not 3 in DDC.

Cirno might have been placed in to have a Misty Lake midboss, and maybe because Cirno is really popular.
Again, popularity and patterns have nothing to do with ZUN's mindset. Girls are fit into stories, not into patterns. Visiting Misty Lake is the only reason for Cirno popping up. Could've been Daiyousei even you know.

Also, stage 3's stage theme has the main theme of Touhou in it. Which the original Bamboo Forest of the Lost stage theme in IN has too. They also sound alike, so there is a chance the stage 3 theme is just a remix.
Forgot the exact name of the original song but yes, it is the famous Title song we have which has been remixed as a stage songs few times. In IN it was called Retribution for the Eternal Night, if I am not mistaking. Always personally love the tune returning in the title songs.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #364 on: June 07, 2013, 09:49:19 AM »
It's called "Theme of Eastern Story", if I'm not mistaken, it's the leitmotif of Touhou. In fact you can hear some traces of this theme in Gensokyo Millenium and the beginning of Candid Friend.
And then a sacked Sakuya told everyone that Flandre was one of her ex-bosses

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #365 on: June 07, 2013, 11:00:39 AM »
Good for Sakuya, but next in line to go from Stage 5 Boss to playable is Rin, so I'm kind of anxious so see if the trend continues.
There's really a much simpler explanation. Stage 5 bosses are much more likely to be human, and humans are much more likely to be protagonists in main-series shooting games. Because of a rather explicit "youkai cause incidents, humans resolve them" thing that forms the basic core of ZUN's storytelling (not that he can't deviate from it when he wants to). I wouldn't expect Rin or Shou to ever be playable in a shooter because they're not human. Futo... maybe, but it's not entirely clear to me if shikaisen are counted as human or not.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #366 on: June 07, 2013, 11:15:56 AM »
There's really a much simpler explanation. Stage 5 bosses are much more likely to be human, and humans are much more likely to be protagonists in main-series shooting games. Because of a rather explicit "youkai cause incidents, humans resolve them" thing that forms the basic core of ZUN's storytelling (not that he can't deviate from it when he wants to). I wouldn't expect Rin or Shou to ever be playable in a shooter because they're not human. Futo... maybe, but it's not entirely clear to me if shikaisen are counted as human or not.
I think it's one of the most plausible explanation for playable characters.
So, if we consider it to be true, what other human (and partially human) characters are possible to become playable at some point in the future?
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #367 on: June 07, 2013, 11:47:05 AM »
They're already balanced out. Or, rather, it's not like the corrupted shottypes are better than the others or anything.

Okay. So i guess being able to target the boss with powerful exploding daggers no matter where on the screen she's located and having a bomb, that in addition to saving your butt also grants you a lengthy moment of invincibility and restores 3 bomb pieces to you if you don't need it, in no ways make her less powerful than her uncorrupted counterpart who is weaker, doesn't have the same range and a bomb that isn't anywhere near as useful for survival. In fact, a bomb that is only good for gathering up lots of PiV which in itself doesn't really give her a benefit compared to the others since the shots don't compete against each other.

ReimuA is also easier to use than ReimuB due to her homing gohei thingy even though I don't particularly care for it. The only character I can see not having a way superior corrupted weapon counterpart is Marisa.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #368 on: June 07, 2013, 11:49:50 AM »
Again, popularity and patterns have nothing to do with ZUN's mindset. Girls are fit into stories, not into patterns.
The selection of playable characters in PCB/IN/PoFV is a pretty obvious pattern (add the previous stage 5 boss as a starting character), he just chose to abandon it because he wanted to reboot the series with MoF. And have a look at PoFV Youmu - the flower outbreak didn't affect the Netherworld, she just went out for the hell of it, which many other characters could have done as well. Why did Youmu make it into the game then over Keine or Patchouli or Suika or Ran? As a starting character with Sakuya and Reisen (a youkai, so it's not like he had to pick humans) no less?
Of course, this is the last instance of a clear pattern that I can detect (aside from simple stuff like Reimu/Marisa being the default playable characters), and it's been 8 years since then, but I still wouldn't discount some pattern building on ZUN's side.
I think it's one of the most plausible explanation for playable characters.
So, if we consider it to be true, what other human (and partially human) characters are possible to become playable at some point in the future?
always playable: Reimu, Marisa
stage 5 more-or-less humans: Sakuya, Youmu, Sanae, Futo
other in-game humans: Keine, Mokou, Miko (Eirin/Kaguya?)
printwork humans/half-humans: Rinnosuke, Akyuu, Kosuzu (I won't even begin to fathom that the Watatsukis are interested in incident resolution :derp:)
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Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #369 on: June 07, 2013, 12:28:32 PM »
Again, popularity and patterns have nothing to do with ZUN's mindset.
So I know about how ZUN loves the doujin mindset and not working for popularity, but is that really true? Why did ZUN make Fairy Wars? In a panel, I heard it was because ZUN saw Cirno as this really popular character, so he made Fairy Wars to be responsive to the fans. However, if he were making games for himself then he can't be making games because characters are popular.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #370 on: June 07, 2013, 12:43:11 PM »
So I know about how ZUN loves the doujin mindset and not working for popularity, but is that really true? Why did ZUN make Fairy Wars? In a panel, I heard it was because ZUN saw Cirno as this really popular character, so he made Fairy Wars to be responsive to the fans. However, if he were making games for himself then he can't be making games because characters are popular.
Long before he made Fairy Wars, he made Cirno come back for a cameo appearance in PCB and playable in PoFV. She was already one of the most commonly recurring secondary characters. I don't think it's a stretch to say that ZUN himself is a fan of Cirno.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #371 on: June 07, 2013, 12:47:48 PM »
Speculating what kind of youkai will appear next..
Ushi-oni <-> Minotaur
namahage <-> Ogre (although ogre is more commonly associated with oni)
Kirin <-> Unicorn (inb4 Satsuki Rin)
Hitotsume-nyuudo <-> Cyclops
Nure-onna <-> Medusa (quite a stretch, though...)

The selection of playable characters in PCB/IN/PoFV is a pretty obvious pattern (add the previous stage 5 boss as a starting character), he just chose to abandon it because he wanted to reboot the series with MoF. And have a look at PoFV Youmu - the flower outbreak didn't affect the Netherworld, she just went out for the hell of it, which many other characters could have done as well. Why did Youmu make it into the game then over Keine or Patchouli or Suika or Ran? As a starting character with Sakuya and Reisen (a youkai, so it's not like he had to pick humans) no less?

This. Wonder why you insist there's no pattern when there's an obvious one here? Same thing with Stage 4 bosses having different attacks depending on your character selection, or stage 5 bosses having bullet-affecting gimmicks. ZUN dropped the pattern after MoF, though.

Stage 1 takes place over Misty Lake, Cirno's usual hangout. Pretty simple connection right there.

Also Fridge Logic. The Misty Lake is the only plausible location in Gensokyo for a mermaid to live peacefully without being known.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 01:18:59 PM by TrueShadow »

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #372 on: June 07, 2013, 01:24:46 PM »
I can side with Limian's post about the mentioning of Human-ish players being playable due to the fact Touhou is mostly about kicking Youkai and other non-humans causing trouble. Since it is based on stories. If you're purely judging the appearance of girls / playable characters based on numbers and order of stages (like in some posts done), you haven't been paying attention to Touhou story lines/plots.

You're mentioning why Youmu is in PoFV. Well, who knows. Have you forgotten why Sakuya is in PCB? Even if those are silly plots (Sakuya going out to prevent SDM from starving) they remain ZUN-logic. A "reason" to go handle the unprecedented affair. Youmu had some reason according to ZUN to be in PoFV. And apparently Tewi as well. Why would Reisen, Shou or Rin be a playable character if it doesn't involve them in a "ZUN logical way". Patterns are fine, but they are not going to confirm a girl appearing in the next series. Why isn't Sanae in DDC? DDC so far sounds like a typical "Youkais causing trouble, need to kick their ass" which falls in the interest zone of Sanae (Youkai extermination is fun thing from UFO).


Besides, I just realise this: why are we discussing this? Shouldn't we be discussing the possible enemy Youkais for the full game? Or possible Ex stage? I think we already have dialogue translations and prologue.

Ah well I guess it makes things less boring on a friday afternoon :)

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #373 on: June 07, 2013, 01:34:57 PM »
I suppose the question becomes whether or not ZUN wants to give the final boss a human subordinate, like he used to be fond of doing. Although I believe the actual explanation for that was that he wanted to make a game with human-youkai partner pairs (IN) and used EoSD and PCB as a means of introducing enough characters for it. And naturally he needed humans for the human-halves of the partnerships. Since then he hasn't introduced very many human bosses at all, other than Sanae.

On the other hand, in terms of "going back to tradition" it might be possible.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #374 on: June 07, 2013, 01:45:13 PM »
Has anyone noticed this?


And the epileptic effect when you pchunn. Probably Stage 6 boss is related to that thing.
Easy Modo? That's for kids, and for me.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #375 on: June 07, 2013, 04:12:11 PM »
Has anyone noticed this?


And the epileptic effect when you pchunn. Probably Stage 6 boss is related to that thing.
I'm not sure what that arrow is pointing too. The spiral? I'm not sure. I think that might just be a stylistic choice by ZUN. I also don't think the death effect has any relation to the final boss either. The thing is that I'm not sure what the death effect is in the canon. Do Reimu and Marisa actually explode and appear back at the bottom of the screen? Probably not. "death" is just a mechanic in the game, and not actually indicative of anything happening in the canon. 

Besides, I just realise this: why are we discussing this? Shouldn't we be discussing the possible enemy Youkais for the full game? Or possible Ex stage? I think we already have dialogue translations and prologue.
This sounds like a very good use of our time, and I like True Shadow's list there. I'll read it over.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #376 on: June 07, 2013, 06:37:22 PM »
Well, again, I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this already, but what is everyones opinion about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_EGRwLQer8
Would bombing be broken with the current score system?

Zil

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #377 on: June 07, 2013, 10:10:41 PM »
As that is, yes.

I haven't played the game yet, but from what I've seen, ZUN has created another suicide-and-bomb centered scoring system, which is fairly disappointing. It's very possible that he'll nerf MarisaB's bomb, but I don't think he'll do more than that. Bombspamming will be the heart of this game's scoring system. I'm not really surprised, and I wasn't planning on playing the game anyway. It just bugs me to see ZUN making games like that for no apparent reason.

At least the characters and music seem pretty awesome so far.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #378 on: June 07, 2013, 10:48:59 PM »
I don't know if this is mentioned yet. but would it be possible to have a Mirror Youkai as the final boss?
Notice the big mirror on the Main screen. And in that mirror, that figure doesn't look like Reimu at the top. The figure in the mirror has a darker shade too.
And notice how in the mirror, only the rod part of the Gohei is showing. Is it a Shapeshifter? And would it mean that if you use Reimu A, the Shapeshifter will be Reimu , like a different boss for each player and their type.
And the name "Eastern Castle of Shining Needle" is kind of a spoiler.
Currently a normal player

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #379 on: June 07, 2013, 10:55:49 PM »
Suicide/bomb systems aren't strictly bad on their own. EoSD scoring (which is actually based on a glitch anyway) has no major issues. GFW was death central but still managed to create an enjoyable system too. But the reason for that is several factors saving it. First, finishing with max lives is very important, which prevents another 10+ suicides from entering the route (unknown if DDC will have this). Secondly, the bomb return for death is 25% of one bomb. In DDC, each death returns 3 bombs, which is equivalent to 12 GFW deaths. That's a problem given the game also has no known anti-bomb/suicide mechanics. MoF prevented a use for such things by reducing PIV (something that would probably be welcomed to make a return...), bosses point items became power when not at full and other games like SA had high clear bonus. But like seen previously, the current resource requirements are possible to change as I assume they are just estimates of what will be required. Changing at least that will help something.

Apart from that I think it also has a problem with the bomb autocollect. It seems counter-intuitive to make a system of risky PoCing, then give the player a means to say "nope I'll just stay down here thank you" and for some characters, give them enough invincibility to make a safe trip for another collection. Then again, DDC is basically built over TD which had the exact same issue (system of risky boss shotgunning, take it away by making player almost constantly invincible) so maybe the series will be cursed until ZUN makes a new engine.

In any case, I'm pretty satisfied as long as there will be one enjoyable shot... thankfully it seems like they play fairly differently to each other so I just might get that.

(Forgot to add, surely Marisa B will be fixed, if not I will lose faith entirely. Nobody in their right mind would think she's fine the way she is.)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:02:31 PM by Feenixtrite »

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #380 on: June 08, 2013, 02:47:49 AM »
I don't know if this is mentioned yet. but would it be possible to have a Mirror Youkai as the final boss?
Notice the big mirror on the Main screen. And in that mirror, that figure doesn't look like Reimu at the top. The figure in the mirror has a darker shade too.
And notice how in the mirror, only the rod part of the Gohei is showing. Is it a Shapeshifter? And would it mean that if you use Reimu A, the Shapeshifter will be Reimu , like a different boss for each player and their type.
And the name "Eastern Castle of Shining Needle" is kind of a spoiler.
I think a mirror youkai could be a pretty cool thing. I would be very fine if that became a theme here.
The mirror on the main page is pretty cool. I'm pretty sure that is Reimu's reflection but warped slightly. The reflection has also been flipped. Also, with the difficulties corresponding to gem stones, and gemstones being shiny... that's kinda like a reflection... which is something yous see in a mirror. It all kinda works.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #381 on: June 08, 2013, 04:36:12 AM »
Nobody in their right mind would think she's fine the way she is.
But... I... Think so...
Well, you can actually not use bombs at all if they are glitchy for you. I have no problem with MarisaB bomb because it's fun  :V

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #382 on: June 08, 2013, 08:52:04 AM »
Seeing as the game titles tend to relate to the final boss in some way...
Perhaps the final boss will be dual natured in some way?
Futakuchi-onna comes to mind, but there might be something that would fit better.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #383 on: June 08, 2013, 10:02:10 AM »
Seeing as the game titles tend to relate to the final boss in some way...
Perhaps the final boss will be dual natured in some way?
Futakuchi-onna comes to mind, but there might be something that would fit better.
This relationship is so forced to be called as such that I'd ignore it in final boss guessing.
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #384 on: June 08, 2013, 03:36:41 PM »
Suicide/bomb systems aren't strictly bad on their own. EoSD scoring (which is actually based on a glitch anyway) has no major issues. GFW was death central but still managed to create an enjoyable system too. But the reason for that is several factors saving it. First, finishing with max lives is very important, which prevents another 10+ suicides from entering the route (unknown if DDC will have this). Secondly, the bomb return for death is 25% of one bomb. In DDC, each death returns 3 bombs, which is equivalent to 12 GFW deaths. That's a problem given the game also has no known anti-bomb/suicide mechanics.

Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying here, but a death in DDC costs you two bombs, and gives you three bomb fragments. You don't gain bombs by dying in DDC.


"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #385 on: June 08, 2013, 04:51:32 PM »
Story being rebelling weapons and the mirror theme showing up, maybe the final boss (or ex-boss) could be something about natural spirits? Like how some believe about everything in the world having its own spirit (or god).

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #386 on: June 08, 2013, 05:00:03 PM »
Story being rebelling weapons and the mirror theme showing up, maybe the final boss (or ex-boss) could be something about natural spirits? Like how some believe about everything in the world having its own spirit (or god).
How does the mirror theme fit into that? Also doesn't Shinto say everything has it's own spirit?

Zil

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #387 on: June 08, 2013, 05:15:56 PM »
Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying here, but a death in DDC costs you two bombs, and gives you three bomb fragments. You don't gain bombs by dying in DDC.
Assuming you die with no bombs in stock, you don't lose any, and you get three when you respawn. I'm not sure what you mean by it costing two, unless that has something to do with dying with lots of bombs, as opposed to none, which is what Feenixtrite was talking about.

So say you have no bombs left, you commit suicide, now you have three.

But anyway, I agree, bombs being used for score aren't intrinsically a bad thing. Bombing for bullet cancel items for instance doesn't really hurt the gameplay, I don't think. It's when they usurp the primary system itself that they're stupid. In this case, they ruin the whole POC thing by letting you collect the items from anywhere, at any time, at the touch of a button. Then they reward you with more lives so can just suicide for bombs and do it again.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 05:33:04 PM by Super Saizou World »

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #388 on: June 08, 2013, 05:44:00 PM »
So say you have no bombs left, you commit suicide, now you have three.

Oh, OK, I totally misunderstood you. You mean when you're out of lives altogether; not when you pichun with more lives available. Which does in fact cost you two bombs. I hadn't noticed this part of the mechanic because I haven't run out of lives in this game.

Bombing for bullet cancel items for instance doesn't really hurt the gameplay, I don't think. It's when they usurp the primary system itself that they're stupid. In this case, they ruin the whole POC thing by letting you collect the items from anywhere, at any time, at the touch of a button. Then they reward you with more lives so can just suicide for bombs and do it again.

Doesn't bombing more or less always result in some massive autocollect? How do bombs even come close to "ruining" the PoC thing? You don't have to bombspam.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #389 on: June 08, 2013, 05:48:05 PM »
Doesn't bombing more or less always result in some massive autocollect? How do bombs even come close to "ruining" the PoC thing? You don't have to bombspam.
It didn't in SA, UFO and TD, so he had to program it back in

...which is pretty questionable, given the gimmick of the game.
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