Author Topic: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)  (Read 430726 times)

cuc

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #630 on: July 23, 2013, 07:18:47 AM »
Another person's attempt (source):


The Japanese internet is buzzing with speculation about One Inch Boy (see previous post), Snowhite, Hachi-kazuki-hime, the Princess who wore a bowl (a story in the Cinderella mode), Thumbelina, and more.

Meanwhile, here's a post from May, by a fan who managed to guess Prince Shoutoku before TD's release:
http://sorane880.blog47.fc2.com/blog-entry-576.html

He speculated the DDC boss is Onra/Ura, an oni bandit lord who claimed to be a prince of Silla. The story of his vanquishment at the hand of Prince Kibitsu is said to be the basis of the Momotaro legend.
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #631 on: July 23, 2013, 07:58:41 AM »
Barely part of final boss outline visible.
Fan response: "Underwhelming, sad, where's mah oni."

Some things never change...

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

MaStErSpArK94

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #632 on: July 23, 2013, 08:25:15 AM »
oh shit its the game cover

midget loli confirmed

Oh hi there game cover. I have a feeling this is the Extra boss, not the Final, like EoSD and PCB's covers (IN started the "Final boss on the cover" trend, even though there was also a small Mokou silhouette on it).

Since ZUN aimed for a "retro theme" for this game, maybe he wanted the cover to have the same feel.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #633 on: July 23, 2013, 08:26:00 AM »
When I first looked at it I thought it was a sort-of Mirror Monster, as it looked like the boss was coming out of a mirror (the curved orange part of the box art)

I think I was thinking too much about that reflection on the title screen

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #634 on: July 23, 2013, 09:26:41 AM »
For those concerned that possible-Issun-boshi would disrupt a Western monsters theme, Sekibanki already did that. Cuc's speculation, as always, is very plausible.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

ToyoRai

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #635 on: July 23, 2013, 09:41:32 AM »
Keep in mind that Sekibanki has few reference to Dullahan, which comes from an Irish folklore tale. So where Sekibanki is base on a youkai, it still has a western counterpart. And I wish similar thing with any other boss int his game, if they are not directly base on western myth.

The Noodles Guy

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #636 on: July 23, 2013, 09:47:19 AM »
ZUN has watched LoTR, the girl at the cover's silhouette is a hobbit.

Extra Boss IMO
Easy Modo? That's for kids, and for me.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #637 on: July 23, 2013, 10:17:39 AM »
Keep in mind that Sekibanki has few reference to Dullahan, which comes from an Irish folklore tale. So where Sekibanki is base on a youkai, it still has a western counterpart.
Parallels are not uncommon when it comes to supernatural creatures across cultures. But Sekibanki is still very much a Japanese monster, even if you can find parallels in the west.

The "western monster theme" is something fans came up with on their own, ignoring this, so ZUN wouldn't actually be disrupting anything by putting, you know, Japanese monsters in a game that takes place in Japan.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 10:40:08 AM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

ToyoRai

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #638 on: July 23, 2013, 10:38:40 AM »
Still still, it is not like she has nothing what ties into something in western myths. And if anything, that's all I need.
P.S: I know what Sekibanki is base on, there was no need to tell that.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #639 on: July 23, 2013, 10:46:30 AM »
P.S: I know what Sekibanki is base on, there was no need to tell that.
Well good, I was wondering if everyone forgot she's a Japanese monster, given the outcry over ZUN possibly breaking the non-existent Western monster theme.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Darkness1

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #640 on: July 23, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »
Another person's attempt (source):


Meanwhile, here's a post from May, by a fan who managed to guess Prince Shoutoku before TD's release:
http://sorane880.blog47.fc2.com/blog-entry-576.html

He speculated the DDC boss is Onra/Ura, an oni bandit lord who claimed to be a prince of Silla. The story of his vanquishment at the hand of Prince Kibitsu is said to be the basis of the Momotaro legend.
Well this makes the boss seem alot cooler imo c:
Sounds plausible too.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #641 on: July 23, 2013, 12:15:45 PM »
Keep in mind that Sekibanki has few reference to Dullahan, which comes from an Irish folklore tale. So where Sekibanki is base on a youkai, it still has a western counterpart. And I wish similar thing with any other boss int his game, if they are not directly base on western myth.
Irish and Japanese mythology are uncannily similar anyway. I'd say it's just a coincidence.

My guess is that the new boss is the Youkai of Recycling, based on that symbol at the bottom.

The Noodles Guy

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #642 on: July 23, 2013, 12:24:07 PM »
Satori confirmed for Touhou 14.
Easy Modo? That's for kids, and for me.

Sagus

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #643 on: July 23, 2013, 12:50:36 PM »
Irish and Japanese mythology are uncannily similar anyway. I'd say it's just a coincidence.
Her theme is called "Dullahan Under the Willows", so there's at least a deliberate shout out to the Irish monster, if nothing else.
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #644 on: July 23, 2013, 12:55:15 PM »
Ok, guys, sure. Have it your way and stick with this hilarious "ZUN goes western" theme . Final boss is Pyramidhead.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Sagus

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #645 on: July 23, 2013, 01:05:00 PM »
... I just mentioned that there is a shout-out, not that it somehow proves the theory.
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Mayson

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #646 on: July 23, 2013, 01:07:40 PM »
Final boss is Pyramidhead.
That's not even a western folkslore creature...

Kingault

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #647 on: July 23, 2013, 01:43:28 PM »
EX Boss is Tom Bombadil.
Of course, Tom likes being merry and stuff.
Aka Oni Bombadill.





Anyway, I hope we get Last Words again.

Zakari

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Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #648 on: July 23, 2013, 02:19:32 PM »
Final boss is Pyramidhead.

i think a youkai with eye of providence confirmed!


If this thing appears then a new mysterious conspiracy appears and it is a preview of TH15.

TheTeff007

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #649 on: July 23, 2013, 02:20:10 PM »
Anyway, I hope we get Last Words again.

Calling Sekibanki for Hydra-like spellcard
Small Teaser of my upcoming project~

No need to call me Teff007. Teff will do just as well~

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #650 on: July 23, 2013, 02:23:04 PM »
... I just mentioned that there is a shout-out, not that it somehow proves the theory.
Oh, I don't mean anything by it. I have noticed though that there's a subset in the WTC who hope and expect that a Japanese dude making games that take place in Japan for a Japanese audience will somehow start producing Christian Touhous and leprechauns bosses or whatever, and are disappointed when this does not happen. That's a really weird thing to hope or expect, but I'm just having a laugh (hence Pyramidhead).

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

game2011

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #651 on: July 23, 2013, 02:25:31 PM »
No, it was confusing. Its not even so important that the character be related to the story. What bothers me is the number of characters that seem to sink into obscurity, when instead ZUN could focus on existing characters and make them more interesting.
At the same time I don't mind seeing new characters. After all, there's not telling if a new character might be more popular, and if we're going to get a new character we might as well get one with western influence because, that's something new.
I remember you saying that you want ZUN reusing characters when TD was still in production, right?

In this series, fleshing out characters is reserved for spin-offs and literary materials.  Touhou is known for its large amount of characters and constant introduction of new ones, so it has become the series's tradition and is something that people look forward to with each new installment.

Not letting a new mainstream Touhou game introduce new characters would be like a new Mega Man game with very little or no new Robot Masters or a new generation of Pokemon with very little new Pokemon.

I'm sure there will be an uproar if a new mainstream traditional SHMUP in the series introduces very few new characters...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 07:15:49 AM by game2011 »

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #652 on: July 23, 2013, 02:38:44 PM »
Her theme is called "Dullahan Under the Willows", so there's at least a deliberate shout out to the Irish monster, if nothing else.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. :V
And all joking aside, I'm kind of expecting Zun to go for something pretty obscure for the final boss, rather than simply some sort of dwarf or hobgoblin.

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #653 on: July 23, 2013, 03:28:59 PM »
Judging by the image, it seems like the sixth boss/extra stage boss is a little girl. She could look or be about 12-18 years old.
I know that most Touhou characters do kind of look that young, but I think she might be childish.
Also, that braided hair/tail looks childish to me. Don't take this the wrong way but don't you think so?
I don't really approve of the Western mythical creatures theory because ZUN, a Japanese guy, lives in Japan, and makes games for the Japanese audience. It just doesn't seem likely.
I do approve of the mirror theory though. Especially since the title screen displays a mirror.
Currently a normal player

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #654 on: July 23, 2013, 03:47:15 PM »
I don't really approve of the Western mythical creatures theory because ZUN, a Japanese guy, lives in Japan, and makes games for the Japanese audience.
That doesn't mean anything. ZUN knows his shit about western mythology and isn't afraid of incorporating western creatures into his works. See Remilia and Flandre, Hobgoblins and Chupacabras, or, well, the DDC characters. I really have a feeling the western/eastern duality is going to be part of the double dealing motif, and it makes me curious how the rest of the cast pans out. Also, don't forget that ZUN is coming to the USA this year. This might be his way of acknowledging and catering to the western fanbase without alienating his native one (not that he really needs to fear that as the Scarlet sisters and eastern characters like Reimu and Aya are popular alike).
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Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #655 on: July 23, 2013, 03:51:57 PM »
That doesn't mean anything.
Are you serious? ZUN's games are rife with Japanese mythology. The dude hangs out with historians of ancient Japan for fun. He's even talked in interviews about the Japanese-ness of his games. It's odd at best to hope or expect more Westernization in Touhou based on a few characters and the fact that he's flying to the US.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

MaStErSpArK94

Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #656 on: July 23, 2013, 04:05:12 PM »
Are you serious? ZUN's games are rife with Japanese mythology. The dude hangs out with historians of ancient Japan for fun. He's even talked in interviews about the Japanese-ness of his games. It's odd at best to hope or expect more Westernization in Touhou based on a few characters and the fact that he's flying to the US.

I agree. I can see him putting a few western references here and there, but nothing more than that.

Heck, the name of the franchise is "Touhou" (東方) which means "Eastern".

Re: Touhou 14 - Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #657 on: July 23, 2013, 04:24:21 PM »
For those concerned that possible-Issun-boshi would disrupt a Western monsters theme, Sekibanki already did that. Cuc's speculation, as always, is very plausible.

^This should probably be emphasized more, and agreeing with you that no matter the western mythological references thrown around here and there, the likelihood that a purely western final boss (such as a Gnome) is to appear sort of holds no ground at all. The Issun Boshi theory at least does in that A. ZUN almost always uses a Shinto/Japanese Myth for the rest of the story (excluding EoSD), so that probably won't change here and B. considering Issun Boshi is gnome-like, I wouldn't be surprised if he throws a western parallel reference for the hell of it.

Anyhow like I said before, I'm fine with any outcome but I'm still holding my ground to the Issun Theory.

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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #658 on: July 23, 2013, 04:37:44 PM »
Sir Amat, you seem incredulous at the idea that the Western Touhou Fanbase has unrealistic expectations founded in unwarranted self-importance and reacts in a strong negative manner when those expectatiions are not met. How long have you been posting on this forum again?
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Re: Touhou 14 - 東方輝針城 ~ Double Dealing Character (Demo)
« Reply #659 on: July 23, 2013, 05:27:25 PM »
Are you serious? ZUN's games are rife with Japanese mythology. The dude hangs out with historians of ancient Japan for fun. He's even talked in interviews about the Japanese-ness of his games. It's odd at best to hope or expect more Westernization in Touhou based on a few characters and the fact that he's flying to the US.
Oh, I didn't say "ZUN being Japanese doesn't necessarily indicate the presence of eastern creatures"; of course it does and eastern mythology has dominated the series by a longshot. What I inferred from Lavalake's remark is that ZUN being Japanese means that there is no place for western creatures in Touhou, and I think that's simply wrong. Maybe I was a bit rash there because upon rereading, s/he seems to be referring to the "all-western DDC" approach. If I misunderstood something here, sorry 'bout that.

Anyway, Sekibanki isn't a western character - she's a rokurokubi according to her profile -, but she's definitely a reference to western (and of course, eastern) mythology considering both her theme song and one of her spellcards have "dullahan" in her title. Likewise, the cover girl could very well be an eastern creature (as in, an issun-boshi), but she could also be a reference to western stories (gnomes, Thumbelina, you name them). I'm not saying ZUN is going to make all characters western, oh no, but based on this (perceived) pattern, it's very possible he's going to sneak in western references for each character. And it fits in very nicely with the Double Dealing theme. Also, ZUN's visit to the USA being related was just a small theory of mine, and hey, the timing is rather nice for that, but I'm not going to place any bets on that.
(on a side note, blurring the line between rokurokubi, nukekubi and dullahan for Sekibanki seems very much intentional and typical of ZUN because he loooves leaving things open-ended)

Sir Amat, you seem incredulous at the idea that the Western Touhou Fanbase has unrealistic expectations founded in unwarranted self-importance and reacts in a strong negative manner when those expectatiions are not met. How long have you been posting on this forum again?
Was this remark referring to me? I'm not expecting anything, I'm just speculating based on the title of the game and a pattern 3/3 newcomers in the game fit into (and now a fourth one that has potential to fit in as well). At the very least, this speculation is not completely unfounded, and it's definitely possible ZUN will pull something like that.
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