Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 17F

[Libra]

IMO, adding an Extra Attacker instead would be better to allow you to reduce delays, other than that I would say you have enough attackers as it is, so adding some extra support options with characters like Akyuu or Aya may be a good idea.

Edit: sorry, I meant an Instant Attacker, not en extra attacker.

[elminster1372]

Even if Iku/Tenshi's damaging roles are kind of redundent, Iku is still an excellent buffer and Tenshi's buff removal is pretty useful in Plus Disk. Kogasa and Parsee can deal huge damage, but you've already got several people who deal huge PHY/DRK/CLD damage. Plus, unlike Iku/Tenshi, they don't really have any utility you don't already have covered.

Well, the fact is that Renko and Maribel already cover those roles pretty well on their own - Renko has one of the best buff spellcards in the game (Charge), and Maribel has one of the best anti-buff abilities in the game (Ability to See Boundaries). I've seen plenty of fights vs buffing bosses where my entire team died except Mari (who took, like, next to 0 damage from everything) and Renko (who has massive defenses + evasion and can tank just about everything the game can muster). Heck, there are times where Tenshi removing buffs is actually something I do NOT want to do (for example, vs Ame-no-Murakumo) because of Maribel.

You are right about the fact Kogasa/Parsee don't really bring anything other than damage to the table, but at this point, it becomes a matter of what I actually need in the first place. As far as elements go, I have pretty much every element covered except Fire, which in this game unfortunately doesn't have any really standalone strong nuke besides Flandre. And I have only 2 slots free I can really spare, since Reimu, Sanae, Miko + Futo, Renko + Maribel, Nitori and the oni family are kinda non-negotiable for me (at the very least, I can't think of better choices for boss battles in general, except for some minor niches).

One possibility could be of employing Kanako and Suwako to complete the Moriya family, but neither of the two are especially strong on their own without the kin boost, and with several lategame bosses having the "team scramble" ability, I'd prefer my synergies to be more versatile. For example, while Yuugi prefers being slotted with the other oni, her PHY damage boost synergizes with Futo as well. Similarly, Renko and Maribel (and, to a lesser extent, Reimu and Sanae) can support just about any two random characters. Both Nitori and Miko are fierce attackers on their own, as long as they're boosted, and the latter can debuff the opponent as well.

(Also, I fully get it that PD content is currently not all that difficult and I might be trying too hard for what it is, but what can I say? I like to experiment, and I'm an inveterate perfectionist)

Warrior on Kogasa is pretty good. Without it, she has exactly one good element: DRK. With Warrior, she becomes a good attacker for FIR and CLD as well. As for Murakumo's Blessing, there's really no bad choice. Just pick your favourite character and laugh as they destroy everything[Or laugh as they help everyone els destroy everything.

Well, there are some chars where it honestly would feel wasted (like, say, Reimu or Miko). As the description on site says, the best thing to do would be to give it to a char with naturally high stats (especially MAG) and a lack of good personal spellcards. Most of my current party members either are physical attackers (and have stronger attacks than Murakumo Slash) or have are magic attackers but have a SPI-based attack already (Sanae, Reimu, Miko) or better attacks to use (Maribel). Literally, the only realistic candidate I have as it is would be Iku, and she sounds far from the most exciting user of the subclass to me.

IMO, adding an Extra Attacker instead would be better to allow you to reduce delays, other than that I would say you have enough attackers as it is, so adding some extra support options with characters like Akyuu or Aya may be a good idea.

The only Extra Attacker I could consider as a standalone option is Yuuka Kazami (who, by the way, might also make some decent use of Murakumo's spellcards). But even with her high stats, she lacks %-based ability boosts of her own (such as kinship boosts, or stuff like Kogasa's TRR boost) besides Tormenting Nature, so I'm not sure her damage output would be as good as one can hope (it certainly wasn't in the main game, though that was largely because of Yuuka's poor defense piercing so I'm not 100% sure).

As for Aya, I've considered to use her - maybe alongside Momiji and Nitori to take advantage of their awakening. But that is basically incompatible with the original plan of an awakened Oni team, so I'd have to decide which of the two is better. In the main game, the Oni were definitely better (largely because Yuugi especially trounced nearly everything with Knockout in Three Steps), but maybe in the postgame Momiji and Aya could do more damage over time due to their immense speed and low delay attacks (combined with the fact defense piercing is not as crucial in the postgame as it is in the main game). Plus, while a Nitori with +30% physical damage (from Yuugi) is fun, a Nitori with +42% to all stats (courtesy of his awakening) could be really fun. But that brings up again the point of what happens when the team is scrambled by Second Sun and similar bosses (on their own, the Oni are much more powerful and useful than Aya, Momiji or Hina).

[Arcvasti]

I'd consider Pheonix Spread Wings to be a FIR nuke, at least in the plus disk. 312.5% ATK is simply an absurd multiplier, especially against the defense-light bosses of Plus Disk[And remember that this can be boosted by 30% by Warrior!]. And Chen's ATK isn't bad at all, even without her Yakumo Clan synergy. Plus, even if you're not going to be attacking with her, Chen makes everyone else quicker because of Instant Attack. I'd definitely add Chen to your party over Kogasa.

[Phen]

The only Extra Attacker I could consider as a standalone option is Yuuka Kazami (who, by the way, might also make some decent use of Murakumo's spellcards).

I think what he meant was an instant attacker. If you switch someone with an instant attacker, that instant attacker can then switch their self back out with the previous person to instantly bring their bar up.

As for Aya, I've considered to use her - maybe alongside Momiji and Nitori to take advantage of their awakening. But that is basically incompatible with the original plan of an awakened Oni team, so I'd have to decide which of the two is better. In the main game, the Oni were definitely better (largely because Yuugi especially trounced nearly everything with Knockout in Three Steps), but maybe in the postgame Momiji and Aya could do more damage over time due to their immense speed and low delay attacks (combined with the fact defense piercing is not as crucial in the postgame as it is in the main game). Plus, while a Nitori with +30% physical damage (from Yuugi) is fun, a Nitori with +42% to all stats (courtesy of his awakening) could be really fun. But that brings up again the point of what happens when the team is scrambled by Second Sun and similar bosses (on their own, the Oni are much more powerful and useful than Aya, Momiji or Hina).

Aya's support for turns is amazing since she's so ridiculously fast. Aya doesn't even need to be dealing damage to be effective since she can double or more someone's turns. Even when spamming advent, she'll likely get 2-3 turns more than anyone else other than the person she's supporting. And at the same time she's helping everyone else get steadily more turns from her passive party speed buff. If you're only using her for support, just build her as tanky and fast as possible and watch the turns come pouring in. Give her magician for mp longevity and I doubt she'll run out of mp before the enemy is dead. Alternatively, herbalist for applying herb of awakening to multiple people quickly and buff upkeep or strategist for constant damage and defense increase. Her first turn passive also helps a lot with random encounters, letting your slower sweepers instantly move.
Also, try not to get too hung up on taking advantage of family synergy bonuses. Many characters can do their job just as well alone as with their synergy partners, if not better due to support options from non synergy characters, like Akyuu or someone with a element damage increase skill.

Well, the fact is that Renko and Maribel already cover those roles pretty well on their own - Renko has one of the best buff spellcards in the game (Charge),

I prefer Iku's buff style since it's a massive attack buff, almost twice that of Renko's, and you don't need defense buff if the boss itself is dead. The delay on it is also much better than Renko's, unless you use Aya to negate it I suppose, and the downside on it is completely negate-able with paralysis resistance and Iku's own passive. However, since you seem to be set on using multiple attackers instead of just supporting one, I can see Renko possibly being better in that regard. Also, it's not exactly bad to have multiple characters that can deal the same element. It allows you to double up on attacking boss weaknesses or as insurance in case one or the other goes down unexpectedly. Iku's defense debuff and paralysis infliction can also be extremely helpful in some fights.

Well, there are some chars where it honestly would feel wasted (like, say, Reimu or Miko). As the description on site says, the best thing to do would be to give it to a char with naturally high stats (especially MAG) and a lack of good personal spellcards. Most of my current party members either are physical attackers (and have stronger attacks than Murakumo Slash) or have are magic attackers but have a SPI-based attack already (Sanae, Reimu, Miko) or better attacks to use (Maribel). Literally, the only realistic candidate I have as it is would be Iku, and she sounds far from the most exciting user of the subclass to me.

I'd put it on whoever has the best chance at hitting boss weakness to further multiply their damage against it. You might be forgetting that one of Murakumo's passives is a massive 48% damage increase(or more depending on how it calculates). This makes it useful for any attacker even if they already have overlapping elements or better spellcards.

You could also just treat a character slot or two as bonus slots that you switch out according to the boss you'll be fighting. Tomes of reincarnation are easy to get in plus disk and are infinite in supply.

[RegalStar]

Here's a survey question for you guys: how often do you do skill resets? I tend to milk the feature for all it's worth, switching from "for randoms" setup consisting of the two experience skills, drop boosters, "on defeat" skills and monks everywhere to setups that are more boss appropriate when I do an end-of-floor boss sweep, then switch back for the next floor, but I always felt that the switching are very irksome since the interface isn't too streamlined for that kind of frequent changes, and I'm not sure if I'm just going too much overboard about it.

[Arcvasti]

I don't do skill resets that often. If I'm saving up points for an expensive skill, then I'll put the skill points in other things and then reset once I'm high enough level for the skill I want. Sometimes I'll switch subclasses for a boss, like when I want Sakuya to have Iron Mountain Charge instead of Explosive Flame Sword, but I usually don't bother.

The experience skills I just don't touch, period. I hate everything about them.

[elminster1372]

I think what he meant was an instant attacker. If you switch someone with an instant attacker, that instant attacker can then switch their self back out with the previous person to instantly bring their bar up.

Aya's support for turns is amazing since she's so ridiculously fast. Aya doesn't even need to be dealing damage to be effective since she can double or more someone's turns. Even when spamming advent, she'll likely get 2-3 turns more than anyone else other than the person she's supporting. And at the same time she's helping everyone else get steadily more turns from her passive party speed buff. If you're only using her for support, just build her as tanky and fast as possible and watch the turns come pouring in. Give her magician for mp longevity and I doubt she'll run out of mp before the enemy is dead. Alternatively, herbalist for applying herb of awakening to multiple people quickly and buff upkeep or strategist for constant damage and defense increase. Her first turn passive also helps a lot with random encounters, letting your slower sweepers instantly move.
Also, try not to get too hung up on taking advantage of family synergy bonuses. Many characters can do their job just as well alone as with their synergy partners, if not better due to support options from non synergy characters, like Akyuu or someone with a element damage increase skill.

I'm personally not a fan of pure support/switching characters, because while they speed up the battle in ATB terms, they tend to slow it down in "real time" terms. Personally, I'd rather take a few hits from the enemy if it means I can finish it in 3 mins instead of 5, which is why my team is generally built for a "stay in" playstyle. Furthermore, that nearly every member is bulky and powerful enough to stay in and attack also means that whoever Second Sun (or other bosses) switches in with its ability can "do something".

As for the family synergy, I kinda agree that there're other kinds of synergy as well, though it doesn't change the fact that you should seek SOME kind of synergy when you can.

I prefer Iku's buff style since it's a massive attack buff, almost twice that of Renko's, and you don't need defense buff if the boss itself is dead. The delay on it is also much better than Renko's, unless you use Aya to negate it I suppose, and the downside on it is completely negate-able with paralysis resistance and Iku's own passive. However, since you seem to be set on using multiple attackers instead of just supporting one, I can see Renko possibly being better in that regard. Also, it's not exactly bad to have multiple characters that can deal the same element. It allows you to double up on attacking boss weaknesses or as insurance in case one or the other goes down unexpectedly. Iku's defense debuff and paralysis infliction can also be extremely helpful in some fights.

Actually, Renko's buff is 42% (vs Iku's 68%) at level 5, and if you consider that it buffs speed as well, the impact is quite noticeable. Also yes, the defensive buff DOES matter - on some bosses, at least. Also yeah, I honestly don't see much reason in going "all in" on just one attacker when you can easily support 2-3 depending on the situation (typically, 2 + Maribel as healer and "mini herbalist", but sometimes Mari can also go on the offense too). Again, being able to support two attackers so easily is one of the things which, in my eyes, make Renko the best buffer in the game.

I'd put it on whoever has the best chance at hitting boss weakness to further multiply their damage against it. You might be forgetting that one of Murakumo's passives is a massive 48% damage increase(or more depending on how it calculates). This makes it useful for any attacker even if they already have overlapping elements or better spellcards.

You could also just treat a character slot or two as bonus slots that you switch out according to the boss you'll be fighting. Tomes of reincarnation are easy to get in plus disk and are infinite in supply.

Three Swords of the Divine Era consumes massive amounts of MP, I'd personally not use it except maybe on a row specifically designed to support it. And even then, you should weigh whether it's a better option than just using multiple attackers.

To be honest, whenever I use Murakumo's Blessing, the only skills I take besides the attacking ones are the HP and MP regeneration ones. Power of the Supreme Ruler is generally not very productive if you can already keep the entire line fully buffed with Renko, and as discussed above Three Swords of the Divine Era is too MP intensive - both for the Infinite corridor and for random encounters in the main dungeon.

Here's a survey question for you guys: how often do you do skill resets? I tend to milk the feature for all it's worth, switching from "for randoms" setup consisting of the two experience skills, drop boosters, "on defeat" skills and monks everywhere to setups that are more boss appropriate when I do an end-of-floor boss sweep, then switch back for the next floor, but I always felt that the switching are very irksome since the interface isn't too streamlined for that kind of frequent changes, and I'm not sure if I'm just going too much overboard about it.

I do as little skill resets as I can, preferring to keep a set up (gear, character selection, skills, stat bonuses) which works in as many situations as possible, since as you hinted, resetting skills is annoying and a waste of time in most situations. I personally prefer "efficient" runs over "min-max" runs.

[LonelyGaruga]

Here's a survey question for you guys: how often do you do skill resets? I tend to milk the feature for all it's worth, switching from "for randoms" setup consisting of the two experience skills, drop boosters, "on defeat" skills and monks everywhere to setups that are more boss appropriate when I do an end-of-floor boss sweep, then switch back for the next floor, but I always felt that the switching are very irksome since the interface isn't too streamlined for that kind of frequent changes, and I'm not sure if I'm just going too much overboard about it.

I reset for every single boss and farming session, setting up all the characters I intend to use for that specific role. I also change gear and level up bonuses whenever I do this, and for bosses, I run damage calculations to determine the best setups to withstand and inflict damage (ideally, with Iku/Tenshi in the damage dealing role, as a personal preference).

It is a little time consuming, but repetition makes it easier to remember and run through it more quickly, and in late Plus Disk you have enough skill points to grab pretty much every skill for most characters, so it becomes a thoughtless process of grabbing all the skills save for unaffordable or worthless things. I'm personally far too much of a perfectionist to run the same build for everything, especially when it comes to recording gameplay. For most bosses (especially early on), I spend a few hours calculating all of the options to be certain of the best choices available, doing damage checks, experimenting with potential strategies, etc. This game provides an enormous level of experimentation and customization, using that to its fullest extent is just as much part of the fun.

That said, I try to stick with the same 12 characters as much as possible. Experimenting with other characters is something I do not do, outside of experimental damage calculations to learn more about how Iku/Tenshi are doing relative to the other cast members.

[RegalStar]

I just noticed that Orin's Blazing Wheel now has 3000 postuse instead of 0. Yay?

[mayukirin]

so, what is this?



I did this when I took Nitori's Ame-No-Murakumo class but didn't use a tome and gave her the same subclass again

I turned off the animations so there is no animation but Nitori indeed used Dragon God's Sigh and not Ame-no-Murakumo Slash


After closing the game, I couldn't do the same thing once more

[ZoomyTsugumi]

What's the recommended level for the Enhanced Murakumo fight? My party is averaging just above lvl 200 at the moment, with huge money dumps into Nitori, but every strat i've tried is just not working very well. Nitori can barely even put a large dent in Murakumo unless Genji Glove Proc's on a fully buffed Nitori with Herb of Awakening (at which point it seems to do just over 4mil which nearly 1 shotted it lol. Otherwise, I keep getting all my buffs removed and the boss keeps outhealing my damage so there's really not much leeway I'm able to make on it. Survival is not the biggest issue considering everyone I built to be relevant can take a hit here but I also do not know what to do with half my party since the usual damage dealers aren't able to do much.

I don't want to have to grind much more if I can avoid it, though if the level rec is much higher I will do it anyway. It's been a while since I played this hardcore so there's probably more I could be doing that I'm just not thinking of. Most of my party is fairly decently invested, though they could probably all be tankier. So far the heaviest invesments were Meiling, Byakuren, Kasen and Nitori. If anyone has any really great strats I can work into the fight I'd appreciate it

Probably not too coherent, but I'm also trying to refresh myself over this too while writing this lol. Any help would be appreciated.

For the record, my party for the last chunk of the game and postgame has basically been TankMeiling and Attackers Kasen, Sakuya, Kanako and Nitori, with Byakuren to do some buffing (supplemented by Sanae). That's kind of the only people I've hugely built on, as well as Reimu for general support/tankiness. Everyone else is pretty moldable, but I'm at a point now where with so much options to choose from I'm very overwhelmed with the idea that I'm missing something important in my strategy that will just blow everything wide open. So idk, suggestions would be appreciated. Momiji is also kind of important in my party at the moment, as she's essential for beefing up Nitori (who has the base ATK + ACC - main equip so Momi's acc increase skill is necessary for Nitori to hit her Super Scope most of the time) so I made Momi a Herbalist for the sole role of being on field to give Nitori a Herb of Awakening before a super scope.

[LonelyGaruga]

so, what is this?

Not 100% sure how you accessed it, but that's actually from a subclass that isn't normally accessible yet, and was found via datamining.

What's the recommended level for the Enhanced Murakumo fight? My party is averaging just above lvl 200 at the moment, with huge money dumps into Nitori, but every strat i've tried is just not working very well.

Ran it at average level 160 and library level 187/30 for every character, I took the easy way out and used Eiki's Last Judgement to ignore DEF/MND. You're destroying the Arms first right? They revive Murakumo if it's defeated before the Arms. The Right Arm will use Shredder randomly with an increasing likelihood the higher your overall buffs are, so if you're having trouble with that, defeat the Right Arm first. Most of its other actions are weakish MT attacks of every element though. As far as Murakumo's healing goes, since it's based on the victim's MP, keeping a character low on MP can help mitigate the healing. It always uses the healing attack every 6th turn (starting after it summons its Arms), and always on the leftmost slot. An easier way to remember it may be every 3 turns after Godly Scarlet Gold Slash.

[ZoomyTsugumi]

Ah yes, finally managed it thank you. Right arm proved to be the hardest to kill (why do all my MAG damage dealers suck so many eggs?) and I barely made the final stretch through sheer regen tanking by both Byakuren and Komachi (Byakuren actually died right before Murakumo did). Nitori took out the left arm in one fell swoop and did basically all the damage to Murakumo and even the right arm.

[Myosotis]

So, I was playing with the thought of replaying this once again with some custom changes with a custom-made cheat engine table to reduce the amount of exp and/or money received, the option to disable spell animations,  possibly a change to the battle-reward-bonus limits or skillpoints per level.

Now my questions, as I am a bit rusty with the whole reverse engineering stuff, would anyone be willing to help porting my already existing cheat engine scripts to the plus version of the game? Would anyone even be able to possibly make a patcher so you don't have to run cheat engine all the time and make it easy for people who can't cheat engine to use such modifications?

Lastly a question to majukirin, if you're seeing this, it appears you made your own spell-disabler thingy for plus disc, would you mind sharing and adding towards this?

[RegalStar]

so, what is this?

There's a bug in the game that lets you access the two normally hidden subclasses (after you learned Murakumo's Blessing).

Spoiler:

Let someone learn Murakumo's Blessing, then immediately go to the Character Status Up menu in the library, and without pressing anything (the cursor should be invisible), press Z once or twice to access Power of Dragon God and *WINNER* respectively (pressing thrice will freeze the game). You can even let multiple characters learn those two subclasses that way (they're meant to be for one character only like Murakumo Blessing).

The reason for this bug is that if you learn a subclass and go immediately to Character Status Up, the game for some reason carries over the location of the cursor. There are exactly 14 subclasses in main game so it worked out, but in plus disk starting from Archmage the cursor overflowed to values that should not be upgraded - if you do this trick with Archmage to Oracle, your character ends up getting free level-up bonus points in stats (and these free level-up points can even be redistributed however you like; they won't disappear unless you use Tome of Reincarnation), and if you do this with Murakumo's Blessing you end up "upgrading" their subclass instead.

[elminster1372]

Interesting... you know, part of me feels like trying it. But at the same time, the game is already kinda damn easy as it is (i.e. it lacks legit endgame bosses), I'd sorta feel bad about overpowering those poor bosses with three "epic" subclasses instead of one (let alone abusing the bug to get multiples lol).

On the other hand, there is a challenge left in the game, even in this incomplete form - even if the floor counter of the Infinite Corridor stays at 101F forever, the level of enemies keeps increasing, and by the time it gets to 900+ while you're still the same party which killed Serpent of Chaos, you WILL get thrashed. So... maybe we could make a challenge about how far we can get in the corridor as it is?^^

Though in that case, it would prolly be better to keep two saves, since the kind of party which would excel at this sort of challenge would be quite different from the one I'd use to finish the postgame bosses. Many characters, such as Renko & Maribel and the 3 oni, are quite great for boss fights but less so for random encounters. On the other hand, many "families" like Yakumo and Earth Palace Party are great for random encounters but a bit too frail/not powerful enough for bosses.

At the moment, I'm grinding the Eternal Corridor 1F after beating Futo (which, btw, was ridiculously easy with Renko/Maribel/Yuugi/Nitori, I literally finished her with just two Knockouts in Three Steps and two Super Scopes) to get 10 jewels for everybody + the main gears (basically, Flower Blade Kikiryousei and the occasional Tokugawa Statue/Scourge/Tupsimati/Medicine of Life). I don't really need awakenings before Kedama Goddess and Serpent of Chaos either, so I can just stock the jewels before then, maybe. And then, once I beat these bosses, reload to awaken different chars and go for the "infinite run"^^

Which party would you make for such a run?

[RegalStar]

I should remind you that you only get 7 jewels. 30F, 60F and 100F bosses drop equipment instead of jewels.

Anyways, here are some things I can think up of that would be more helpful in corridor than boss fights:

-DTH
-Sanae's TP restoration
-Things like Desire to Rest and Small MP Recovery
-Passives that reduce encounter rate (so Renko still has a use)

[Arcvasti]

Honestly, with a combination of Chen + Aya + Rumia, as well as the TP restoring orbs between floors, you can just run from every encounter and never have to fight anything ever. That actually seems more fun then fighting level 900 random encounters for hours, but not by much.

[elminster1372]

I should remind you that you only get 7 jewels. 30F, 60F and 100F bosses drop equipment instead of jewels.

Anyways, here are some things I can think up of that would be more helpful in corridor than boss fights:

-DTH
-Sanae's TP restoration
-Things like Desire to Rest and Small MP Recovery
-Passives that reduce encounter rate (so Renko still has a use)

Sanae's TP restoration is not actually as important at that level as you might think. By then, you should have 40+ TP on every character, and given that every time you complete a floor you get a % restore of your TP if you want, you rarely if ever get to finish your TP. The same is true of your MP as well, even moreso actually.

What you should be worried about, frankly, is not to finish TPs/MPs, but to be completely obliterated in a fight (which is what happened to me, eventually). DTH effects aren't bad, but most DTH inducing chars are quite slow (Yuyuko, Komachi, Eiki). If anything, I think something ultra-fast like Chen, Orin or Aya is much more useful.

Though you're still right about Renko's encounter reducing ability. In fact, it might be a good idea to bring Rumia and her T9 entourage as well for that (also, it helps that T9 makes for a kinda good random cleaner too with its powerful spread attacks, heals, and MP efficiency).

A possible proposal (with bolded chars as my choices for awakening) would be:

Row 1: Renko [Strategist] / Miko [WINNER] / Kokoro [Murakumo] / Maribel [Transcendent]
Row 2: Hina [Strategist] / Momiji [Transcendent] / Nitori [Trascendent] / Aya [Dragon God]
Row 3 Satori [Strategist] / Koishi [Transcendent] / Utsuho [Transcendent] / Orin [Warrior]

An alternative set up could be

Row 1: Renko [Strategist] / Reimu [Transcendent] / Tokiko [WINNER] / Maribel [Transcendent]
Row 2: Ran [Strategist] / Yukari [Transcendent] / Nitori [Transcendent] / Chen [Dragon God]
Row 3: Sanae [Strategist] / Miko [Transcendent] / Suwako [Murakumo] / Kanako [Transcendent]

thoughts?

Honestly, with a combination of Chen + Aya + Rumia, as well as the TP restoring orbs between floors, you can just run from every encounter and never have to fight anything ever. That actually seems more fun then fighting level 900 random encounters for hours, but not by much.

Well yes, you can - but I would do that only to farm Machine God Lucifer, I guess. I mean, if you're not battling to begin with, what's the point?^^

[IRUN]

WINNER Tokiko would be interesting to see, since she actually has decent stats, which can be bolstered with Reimu. Also, she can finally have good AoE attacks.

[IRUN]

Dragon God's Power:
-Fire Circle's Guard (1*25): When the skill holder takes a turn, if the skill holder's ATB is 10001 or more, recover 4% of all frontliners' HP.
-Wood Circle's Guard (1*25): When the skill holder takes a turn, if the skill holder's ATB is 10001 or more, grants all allies 4% buff on all stats.
-Water Circle's Guard (1*25): When the skill holder takes a turn, if the skill holder's ATB is 10001 or more, all frontliners will have a 20% chance of removing all ailments.
-Earth Circle's Guard (1*25): When the skill holder is in the front, reduce damage from enemies for all frontliners by 10%.
-Metal Circle's Guard (1*25): When the skill holder takes a turn, if the skill holder's ATB is 10001 or more, recover 1 of all frontliner's MP.

So dragon god Aya would be really broken.

[LonelyGaruga]

tbh I think DGP isn't that great, the only really strong effect is the passive damage reduction. I would rather use Enhancer or Elementalist for Aya. Enhancer for grinding, Elementalist for a low delay buff for bosses before switching her out. DGP doesn't appear to be anything I might find useful, unless the spell card is really strong.

[elminster1372]

A char I'm also considering for the Dragon God class is Kokoro. Fast Concentrates allows it to get multiple activations for the various DG abilities - and, since you'd Concentrate at least once or twice for the mask power, this gives you a nice bonus for something you'd have done anyway. Also, DG has a powerful composite spellcard, which is good for Kokoro's mixed offenses.

EDIT: Also, looked up the numbers RegalStar posted a while ago for subclass attacks... Damn 250 (ATK+MAG) for Dragon's Breath is absolutely insane (it's almost double what Kokoro would do with her own composite attack, and more than half of Flandre's Lavatein). WINNER's attacks don't look as crazy overpowered (though they're still good, mind you), but the subclass already comes with absurd stat buffs as it is, so the final damage output should be quite strong anyway.

[LonelyGaruga]

Ah, I was  not aware the spell stats were known for DGP/WINNER. Pity I'm only now finding out, in the process of moving and will be without internet for a week. Currently posting via 3DS. Can someone quote the spell formulas so I can check them later?

[IRUN]

Dragon's Breath (5*15): 12MP/All/FIR+CLD+WND+NTR/Straight Composite/Acc+50/Subclass Spell that inflicts composite damage of four elements to all enemies. As a composite attack, ATK, MAG, DEF and MND are all involved in the damage calculation.

Vorpal Blade (5*15): 7MP/Row/WND/Physical/Acc-15/Subclass Spell that inflicts WND damage to a row of enemies. Both its ATK multiplier and damage multiplier are high.
Magical Tempest (5*15): 12MP/All/Void/Magic/Acc+30/Subclass spell that inflicts non-elemental damage to all enemies.
Sword of Light (5*15): 8MP/Single/SPI/Composite Magic/Acc+128/Subclass spell that inflicts SPI damage to one enemy. A spell that calculates both the ATK and MAG of the user, and the MND of the target. It also ignores 50% of the target's MND.
Wand of *Destruction* (5*15): 16MP/All/DRK/Composite Physical/Acc-20/Subclass spell that uses the user's ATK and MAG, and the targets' DEF. The Damage multiplier is very high, but its power is low, and the MP consumption and delay are both terrifyingly high. It can inflict PSN, PAR, HVY, SHK, TRR, SIL and DTH.

[IRUN]

Dragon God: HP+12, MP+8, TP+8, All elements+64 (wtf), All status+20
Four Elements Protection: FIR/CLD/WND/NTR affinity+3 per level (max level 20)
Dragon Breath: 12MP, All Enemies, FIR+CLD+WND+NTR composite, 250(ATK+MAG)-40(DEF+MND), 2400 postuse

WINNER: All stats+6 (not including TP or MP), All elements+24, All ailments+8
Autoroller: All stats+1 per level (max level 10; same for the two below)
Elemental Immunity: All Elements+4 per level
Magic Armor: All Ailments+2 per level
Vorpal Blade: 7MP, Enemy Row, WND direct, ~237-77, 4500 postuse
Magical Tempest: 12MP, All Enemies, VOI magic (though it's actually MYS right now), 280-100, 600 postuse
Sword of Light: 8MP, One Enemy, SPI composite magic, ~195(ATK+MAG)-33(MND), 5750 postuse
Wand of Destruction: 16MP, All Enemies, DRK compoiste direct, ~192(ATK+MAG)-120(DEF), inflicts every status except debuffs (fairly reliably too from what I observed), 2400 postuse

[Libra]

I wonder if Rin could make good use of the Dragon God class with her low delay Cat's Walk and Speedy Formation Change, Dragon's Breath is stronger (though also twice as expensive) than her Blazing Wheel too. Btw does anyone know how do "Increase x elemental damage" skills interact with spellcards that have multiple elements?

[Serela]

Although I haven't tested, I'm pretty sure the attack will get the boost from any passive matching one of it's elements. If you can stack multiple, then you should get some big damage, but it'll be pretty demanding on your front line space.

Re:Speedy Formation change, I particularly like the idea of combining Dragon God with Awakened Kogasa, who gets a passive party heal to stack with dragon god's and Speedy Formation. Orin would do well offensively though, with Extra Attack dragon breath. Yuuka would love it too.

[elminster1372]

Doesn't Extra Attack put your ATB to 10000, instead of 10001? Because if so, I dunno if it'll activate DG abilities.

[RegalStar]

Extra Attack doesn't mess with ATB; it just repeats the action, so it won't trigger circles at all. Extra Step puts the user at 20000 ATB so it will trigger circles again, though of course its bossing relevance is... limited.