Author Topic: Touhou 15 「東方紺珠伝 ~ Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom」 Patch 1.00b released  (Read 218195 times)

BB

  • Typewriter Youkai
Haha wow, since Extra is played like Legacy and therefore like any other Extra, it almost feels underwhelming next to the madness of Pointdevice Clownpiece and Junko...
Touhou fan since 2008.

Faves quicklist:
Yukari - Byakuren - Lily White - PCB - UFO - Necrofantasia - Cosmic Mind - Shining Needle - not into the fighters - not into score play - enjoy storytelling and theorycraft

Spoiler:
Am I the only one who feels Sagume really didn't think out her grand invasion plan? I mean seriously, with a power like that, she could have just beaten up Junko, Hecatia and Clownpiece. Did it really needed to take the four heroines for her to think of that?

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Haha wow, since Extra is played like Legacy and therefore like any other Extra, it almost feels underwhelming next to the madness of Pointdevice Clownpiece and Junko...

Yeah Clownpiece in Pointdevice was photog game levels of nerve-wracking for me.

On a purely cosmetic note, I think the costumes in this game are a step above, especially in the later game.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

The lore in this game cuts really deep this time. It's a complex gambit pileup of several powerful factions, to an extent not seen before in the games. A lot of loose ends from the previous canon are brought up in the process, IN+Bougetsushou and ULiL most importantly.

Another random thought: I love the minimalism of the final boss's attacks. Every bullet is lethal with little decoration or gimmicks. It's really zen, like "essence of danmaku" stuff. The fight feels to me like a celebration of 20 years of Touhou.
check http://vsoft.life/ for runs & creations
latest stream: Hollow Song of Birds Hard 1cc (OrangeReimu) @ https://youtu.be/eDFd4FHEjXg

Nolegs the Cat

  • >Sʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴘᴇɴᴅs ᴏɴ ʏᴏᴜ. >Sʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴘᴇɴᴅs ᴏɴ ʏᴏᴜ.
Wait...

Does the existence of Clownpiece mean Cirno's no longer the strongest fairy?

Also how does legacy on hard/lunatic compare to SA and UFO?

Komeiji11

  • The Gloomy Power of Love
Any tips on handling Junko's snake show-esque attack? I understand the general how-to for all the others but that one for me is just killer...

In between the purple lasers, you have to be on the right of the nearest laser, so the upward one doesn't catch you. With the red ones is the same process, but in the opposite side. Maybe that's the best tip I can give you, I dunno? I only have played on Normal mode.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 01:39:21 AM by Lightmaster »

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
But wow... 
Spoiler:
Junko got royally screwed over in the past...  Poor lady, when I was watching a play through without knowing her story she had the most interesting design to me so I started digging and found that she has probably the saddest backstory of any of the Touhou characters, including Yuyuko.
Do elaborate if you don't mind, because Junko's morality (or lack thereof) is exactly what I'm heavily pondering at the moment.

It might be me just having wonky sources due to inability to rely on the translated dialougie itself, but doesn't her motive involve
Spoiler:
Hou Yi, Chang'e's husband, accidentally killing her family in the process of removing excess suns from the sky that spread calamity upon the land
? I still find it pretty hard to justify her going for
Spoiler:
revenge against Chang'e herself  (who is imprisoned *and* hourai immortal) and driving the Lunarians out of their home by poisoning it with impurity  (indirectly putting Sagume's backup "genocide-and-take over Gensokyo with Lunar Capital Occult Ball" plan into motion in the process), then going to harrass the Lunarians that took shelter in the Dream World further with Hecatia for some reason once the heroine stopped her initial plan
with a sob story that shouldn't even put any blame on Chang'e herself. That seems like going to insane lengths for some badly misplaced, undeserved and pointless vengeance.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 01:54:13 AM by Critz »

PK

  • Border of Whatever
Wait...

Does the existence of Clownpiece mean Cirno's no longer the strongest fairy?

Depends if Clownpiece is really meant to be that strong or
Spoiler:
just a rapresentation of the whole infinite mass of fairies on the Moon (and the whole "stage level not equaling power level" thing), if she still counts as a fairy after Junko purified her, and if those hell fairies are actually the same as normal fairies (since they might come from a different mythology).
However, this is interesting because Cirno was strong enough to be dangerously close to become something different from a fairy, so assuming Clownpiece is actually that powerful and still considered a fairy, she probably would have gone beyond that level, becoming a youkai or some other thing.

Spoiler:
Am I the only one who feels Sagume really didn't think out her grand invasion plan? I mean seriously, with a power like that, she could have just beaten up Junko, Hecatia and Clownpiece. Did it really needed to take the four heroines for her to think of that?

I think her power is way more subtle and situational than the broad description in her profile.

Plubio

  • 宇宙少年
    • Suzunaan
Does anyone have a scorefile with Practice Stage 6 for Reisen and Marisa unlocked (any difficulty will do)?

Here my own score. Normal Pointdevice cleared with all the girls ? Have fun!

Spoiler:
Then going to harrass the Lunarians that took shelter in the Dream World further with Hecatia for some reason once the heroine stopped her initial plan with a sob story that shouldn't even put any blame on Chang'e herself.

Spoiler:
Isn't really "for some reason". If I'm not mistaken, Lunarians kept living on a dreamy version of Lunar Capital, so Chang'e was -still- imprisoned. Using Hecatia's fairies to harass Lunarians even on the Dream World would make them move to Earth ? while on "real" transit Junko could be able to attack Chang'e.

Kaizaki

  • Pillager
  • I'm feeling lucky
    • GitHub
Junko's omake profile has been translated on the wiki, and it sheds light on certain things about Chang'e. It confirms that she is one of the Moon's people, a goddess, and a criminal for drinking the Hourai Elixir. Coupled with the fact that she is extremely powerful, the latter bit implies that she is also immortal. (lol sorry, Junko---it's a lost cause.)

I'm led to think that Chang'e was exiled to Earth as punishment, where she then married Hou Yi. (Reisen ending spoilers)
Spoiler:
Junko's tragedy followed after, and I believe this explains why she is in the Earth region in Eirin's diagram.

This brings up a question, namely, why would the People of the Moon want someone tainted with kegare back? I've always thought their retrieval attempt of Kaguya was a mild inconsistency in favour of narrative faithfulness, but now it's clear that that is certainly not the case. (ZUN, you are amazing.) This also brings up the somewhat awkward question of why they even tried executing the princess... It might have to do with their status (goddess vs princess). Either that, or they did it for the lulz.

This then leads me to the question of what kind of goddess Chang'e is. Her profile states that she is a 月の女神 "goddess of the moon," and that she "rules over the moon rabbits." Does this mean she's a goddess of THE moon itself (making her very important), of the moon rabbits (also important because the Capital needs slav-- workers), or does it simply indicate that she's one of the many gods living there?

For someone rarely mentioned and never seen, Chang'e has certainly caused quite a stir.



I posted this in the previous thread, but I feel like pointing it out again:
Junko vs Chang'e seems like a rehash of Mokou vs Kaguya, i.e., ordinary being turns extraordinary due to loss of family and extenuating circumstances (in)directly caused by the other, becomes pure and a force aligned with fire (sun), and seeks unbridled vengeance on a lunar maiden, who is tainted with kegare due to consuming the Elixir of Immortality, and is imprisoned in a cage of purity, shunned by her people.

It feels like Imperishable Night and Bougetushou all over again!

Edit: Got ninja'd in some parts. :V
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 02:08:13 AM by Kaizaki »

Sagus

  • Spin, Hina, spin
  • Spin like there's no tomorrow
Spoiler:
Am I the only one who feels Sagume really didn't think out her grand invasion plan? I mean seriously, with a power like that, she could have just beaten up Junko, Hecatia and Clownpiece. Did it really needed to take the four heroines for her to think of that?
As Clastre said, her power is subtle; if I understood it right, if she, for instance, says "the sky is red", it won't just magically turn the sky red, but not too long after a weird weather phenomenon will happen and the sky will turn red.

For all we know, she did use it, and the result was the chain of events that led to the player character going up to the moon to defeat Junko.

This also brings up the somewhat awkward question of why they even tried executing the princess... It might have to do with their status (goddess vs princess). Either that, or they did it for the lulz.
Kaguya was the very first person to drink it, right? Maybe they were just trying to make absolute sure that she couldn't be killed. If Chang'e took the Elixir after Kaguya's banishment, they'd already know that executing her was impossible and just skipped to the banishing part.

As for why they would want her back... if she is the goddess of the rabbits, maybe the rabbits refused to work with her gone?
Peketo's Drawing Stuffs
Despite the name, it's mostly 3D models.

My fanfics.

Marron

  • Ordinary crow
Lonemaestro: Hey, thank you for the translation man, I don't understand japanese so it help. : )

Nuclearfalcon:
Spoiler:
I won't say that she's more tragic than Yuyuko, but that's right, she have one of a sad story in gensokyo ! It's strange, you know, how she suppressed her anger ? It somehow feel like she still have it. She kind of make me think of an Ex-Parsee, because of the face and because of the fact that she seems alright at the first sight, then you see something is really wrong with her..

By the way, the extra crash just after the boss spellcard. Someone's having the same problem . . . ?

Kaizaki

  • Pillager
  • I'm feeling lucky
    • GitHub
Kaguya was the very first person to drink it, right? Maybe they were just trying to make absolute sure that she couldn't be killed. If Chang'e took the Elixir after Kaguya's banishment, they'd already know that executing her was impossible and just skipped to the banishing part.
I was under the impression that Chang'e drank it first. Kaguya is said to have lived for at least 1300 years, whereas Rei'sen (Reisen II) stated in CiLR Chapter 6 that they've been "pounding away [for Chang'e] for thousands of years." If we go by their actual legends, Taketori Monogatari is from the 10th century. As for Chang'e's, I can't find a time range, but the Guizang text contains a story of her, and it is said to "had been lost for roughly two thousand years."

As for why they would want her back... if she is the goddess of the rabbits, maybe the rabbits refused to work with her gone?
Actually, I just found out that Chang'e really is the Chinese goddess of the Moon. But to answer your question, that could also be true. However, if Rei'sen's thoughts are to go by, they don't seem to give much thought to their mistress... They treat the pounding now as mere routine.

Edit: Typo.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 03:03:30 AM by Kaizaki »

Sagus

  • Spin, Hina, spin
  • Spin like there's no tomorrow
I was under the impression that Chang'e drank it first. Kaguya is said to have lived for at least 1300 years, whereas Rei'sen (Reisen II) stated in CiLR Chapter 6 that they've been "pounding away [for Chang'e] for thousands of years." If we go by their actual legends, Taketori Monogatari is from the 10th century. As for Chang'e's, I can't find a time range, but the Guizang text contains a story of her, and it is said to "had been lost for roughly two thousand years."
It might've been just hyperbole. After all, the Elixir wouldn't exist at all if not for Kaguya's whim. I don't think Eirin would've completed it and then given a sample to Chang'e before giving it to Kaguya.

Actually, I just found out that Chang'e really is the Chinese goddess of the Moon. But to answer your question, that could also be true. However, if Rei'sen's thoughts are to go by, they don't seem to give much thought to their mistress... They treat the pounding now as mere routine.
She's the Goddess of the Moon in chinese mythology, yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she's the same here. Also, Junko's profile does say "[Chang'e] rules over the moon rabbits", so I'd guess that this is her primary function here.
Maybe they just care that she's in the moon at all? Or maybe they become useless if she's away from them. Well, we don't really have much to go on here.

Now for something unrelated:

I've been trying to figure out why the Lunarians couldn't actually fight back against Junko's plan...

It seems, going by Toyohime's fan, that the Lunarian weapons are based around purifying impure things, which appears to completely destroy them. Since any other kind of death would invite impurity, I assume they don't actually have weapons that don't work this way. Therefore, since Junko purified the fairies to turn them into "pure lifeforce", the Lunarians weapons would be unable to do anything against them, since they aren't impure at all. And of course, killing fairies in general is impossible since they just respawn, so any other method of getting rid of them would be useless. And furthermore, since they are basically terraforming the moon, it's too risky for the Lunarians to even try to leave the capital.

Does this make any sense?

At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

where are your gods now, yorihime :V
Peketo's Drawing Stuffs
Despite the name, it's mostly 3D models.

My fanfics.

ChronaSE

  • Doremy-rekt
I actually couldn't imagine the Watatsukis sleeping in the Dream World given the situation  :V

I hope Yuke makes a fanmade phantasm with them on it.

At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

Reisen's reaction to this is mildly amusing.

Kaizaki

  • Pillager
  • I'm feeling lucky
    • GitHub
It might've been just hyperbole. After all, the Elixir wouldn't exist at all if not for Kaguya's whim. I don't think Eirin would've completed it and then given a sample to Chang'e before giving it to Kaguya.
Sorry, too many theories in my head, I don't know what's what anymore. :derp: So I'll just leave this here:

Wasn't Kaguya's power over eternity needed to make the elixir in the first place?
This was my argument, which I supported with the mistranslation explained in the first. With the mistranslation clarified, this is still a high possibility - I think the purpose of the IN spell card "Hourai Elixir" is to show us that Eirin needs Kaguya's power to make the elixir. But it's no longer guaranteed to be true.



Well, we don't really have much to go on here.
I agree. Let's leave it at that.

And thanks, Sagus!



It's amusing that the real incident is the opposite of it was thought to be, i.e., instead of "living place turning lifeless", it's actually "lifeless place given life."

And Junko should make friends with Yukari---they have certain interests in common.

Hey, I'm new posting here but...
I feel like I have some info regarding what
Spoiler:
Junko
is based on.

Spoiler:
http://baike.baidu.com/subview/3030763/18618636.htm
It appears there's a legend where she was married to Houyi before he became an archer.
(Oh, and Junko is a pun on the common Japanese name Junko (純子) and the Chinese pronunciation of 純狐 as Ch?n h? or something along those lines, I think.)

I've been wondering about this for a while, but why do we call 嫦娥 'Chang'e' instead of 'Jouga' (Japanese reading)? ZUN even spells her name in hiragana at some point during LoLK.

Probably momentum at this point. We often translate Buddhist terms into Sanskrit too. I guess the idea is that as translators we're not beholden to the Japanese names of things that don't originate in Japan. Chang'e is just more familiar.

Also, the Chinese Lunar Exploration Program (a.k.a. Chang'e Program) was mentioned in SSiB Chapter 2 along side Chang'e herself, so that probably influenced the translation.

Therefore, since Junko purified the fairies to turn them into "pure lifeforce", the Lunarians weapons would be unable to do anything against them, since they aren't impure at all. And of course, killing fairies in general is impossible since they just respawn, so any other method of getting rid of them would be useless. And furthermore, since they are basically terraforming the moon, it's too risky for the Lunarians to even try to leave the capital.

There's a bit of a conflict between our current translations here. The in-game dialogue spells out that the fairies are basically 100% kegare once Junko's done with them, so her "purification" actually has nothing to do with removing kegare at all. It just means she sort of intensifies whatever she's using her powers on. I guess it's still too much for the Lunarians to approach, even with kegare-destroying weapons?

At any rate, thinking about this made me realize just how hilarious the whole situation really is. The Lunarians, supposedly the strongest race in the Touhou-verse, were basically nearly completely defeated by a bunch of goddamn fairies.

where are your gods now, yorihime :V

This is true tho and it is the best thing

kevin1127

  • 古明地こいし is cute and beautiful!!
Can anyone confirms the following two things?
1. You got a special ending screen if you complete legacy mode without losing any life.
2. Based on your mode (legacy or pointdevice), not only the ending, but also the stage 6 dialogue differs.

Can anyone confirms the following two things?
1. You got a special ending screen if you complete legacy mode without losing any life.
2. Based on your mode (legacy or pointdevice), not only the ending, but also the stage 6 dialogue differs.

#2, at least, is definitely the case. (I would assume it's technically based on whether you get hit or not, but that's pretty much the same thing unless you do a no-miss Legacy run.)

There's a bit of a conflict between our current translations here. The in-game dialogue spells out that the fairies are basically 100% kegare once Junko's done with them, so her "purification" actually has nothing to do with removing kegare at all. It just means she sort of intensifies whatever she's using her powers on. I guess it's still too much for the Lunarians to approach, even with kegare-destroying weapons?

Lifeforce is impurity. Life is death is kegare. So fairies inherently represent kegare. As you note, Junko's power just intensifies things that already exist. Fairies are already threatening to the moon, and she made them more threatening.

The confusion stems only from using the word "impurity" for "kegare". The fairies on the moon are made of pure impurity, which just sounds silly.

Can anyone confirms the following two things?
1. You got a special ending screen if you complete legacy mode without losing any life.
2. Based on your mode (legacy or pointdevice), not only the ending, but also the stage 6 dialogue differs.

Based on how the dialog differs, I would assume the no-miss dialog and ending on Legacy is the same as the Pointdevice dialog and ending. Basically, Junko's attitude towards you changes depending on if you've ever died or not, and plot-wise it's impossible to die on Pointdevice mode. It's not a super-secret special ending, it's just that the Legacy endings assume you've died at some point.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 06:39:12 AM by Clarste »

ChronaSE

  • Doremy-rekt
Are there also bad endings? I had a terrible run today on legacy and wanted to test it out, but I ran out of continues during Junko's final spell  :(

game2011

  • magneiptVE
    • Unsurpassed ??asual Dating - Real Women
Do we know Sagume's stage 4 boss gimmick?  Or is she like Aya and Minamitsu, having no gimmicks?

Do we know Sagume's stage 4 boss gimmick?  Or is she like Aya and Minamitsu, having no gimmicks?

She uses familiars, in a similar way to Orin (though Kishin's don't revive). Not exactly unique, but she uses them so extensively that it's definitely a theme in her danmaku.
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra