Ethics of Acquiring End-of-life (product) Doujin Goods

[nightsparrow]

Hello!

I'm fairly new to the fandom, and this site as well, so I apologize if this has already been discussed with great depth in the past. However, from both Google searches and scavenging the forum for a bit, I could not find a thread that addressed this topic with enough substance for my taste.

As a new fan, I've been greatly impressed by the works of the numerous and exceptionally talented artists and creators found in the Touhou Project fandom. Still, I must say that navigating this franchise has been something of a learning experience for me?Touhou is both my first encounter and the closest I've ever come to anything like the Japanese doujin culture, and I must admit that it's sometimes difficult to explore a world where the difference between acceptable and not isn't as simple as what's ordinarily found in the mainstream.

I think we can all agree that with regards to purchasing an artist's works, it's most often best to do right by the original creators as much as we can. Generally, this means purchasing works legally without resorting to piracy, and it also means acquiring goods in a way that pays respect to the author's intentions and will. In the limited time I've spent observing this forum, I've found that such thoughts have come to define the philosophy of Maidens of the Kaleidoscope, and rightfully so in my eyes.

Because official works such as the main series games, their accompanying soundtracks, and print works either authored or authorized by ZUN appear to remain in print indefinitely due to their place in the canon, upholding such views with regards to these items poses no significant hardship for most buyers. Similarly, thanks to the efforts of N-Forza and the service he provides, there is also no issue with upholding these views with regards to newer fan works that can be bought either at live events or from select online vendors with full blessings from the original creators.

The first and only time that these thoughts are legitimately challenged in my mind are with regards to the purchasing of non-official fan works that have already reached the end of their product cycles and are otherwise considered out-of-print. At this point, it appears that the only way to acquire these things (apart from the Internet which would bring us straight back to our collective stance on piracy) is through purchasing from a re-seller.

However, the subject of purchasing from the second-hand market is something that I've come to find deeply troubling with regards to honoring the code I've outlined above, and especially so where it concerns the doujin scene. I don't think it should come as a surprise that many doujin creators think about as much of the unauthorized re-selling of their works as they do of illegally scanning and uploading those same works to the Internet?which is to say that they find it distressing at best and highly disrespectful at worst.

What really struck me about this in my research is the depths to which some follow these views in the community. I've seen it said on more than one occasion that some doujin artists would rather see their books burned or irreparably destroyed than to have them re-sold. And when I really think about it, all too frequently do I find myself sympathizing with their views: to say nothing of the value in maintaining an environment that plays to the nature of the doujin culture (keeping the artist in control, both for the sake of their rights as a creator and to prevent their works from drawing too much attention from the original work they're parodying), it is downright offensive to see a second-hand store charging such a heavy mark-up for not only a product that they do not own, but one that the original author likely made without expecting or even wanting to receive a monetary profit.

But then the second-hand market is the only way to find these things, lest they otherwise be lost to time. So, I'm curious to hear the opinions of this forum for the sake of my education on the subject: do you personally find that there are any ethical means of acquiring end-of-life doujin products? And if not, is there at the very least a 'most' ethical means that you might find morally permissible enough to use yourself?

If you're interested in my opinion, I've come to consider the answer to the first question a flat "No." I'm still thinking about the second question, but despite the fact that it will obviously affect how I move forward, I'm being fully honest when I say that I'm strongly considering whether or not the answer should be "No" there as well.

[pasu]

Since most artists sell their releases through shops like melonbooks/toranoana, I don't have any qualms about buying a second hand copy off mandarake.

No actually, pertaining to the whole issue, while it is rather morally wrong to some people to resell items at a marked price for a profit, it's something that just can't be stopped. Whatever you do, people are going to do it anyway. So I find worrying about it is, frankly, quite a waste of time as I, a consumer, can't really do anything about it.

Oh, and welcome to the forums!

[Helepolis]

I don't see personally issue in second hand sales, which creates a customer-to-customer relationship. One person ditches his product and the other buys. Whether the original owner sells this at a profit or not, is in my opinion not the concern of the author. The author originally received its value when the customer initially purchased the good. Of course this is strict in c2c cases.

Resellers, not being authorised to resell and whether they copy the work or not, remains an illegal activity. (White Canvas deal I believe is a good example?). Mandarake is a 2nd hand reseller which facilitates the process as a physical store. I don't see issues in this either because they aren't reselling unauthorized. I am not sure if you should approach this from an ethical point of view. I don't see the ethical problem here and couldn't elicit it clearly from your post either.

Also you're mentioning end-of-life doujin products. But what defines "The end of life" of a product? A book, comic or news paper article have a life cycle? Comics are well known to be sometimes even rare and kept around for generations, just to view back on the era of comics and similar. (Kyoto Manga Museum). Why would a doujin product have an end of life? The only ending they will have is when their owners ditch them. And that is where it either becomes recycled paper/trash or ends up at a second hand shop. Meaning it will get a new life if there is a new owner. None of this concerns the original author.

[hungrybookworm]

I'm guessing what you're asking is 'is it okay to buy a second hand copy of a doujin product that's out of print or no longer being sold by the original circle?' The general impression I get from the people I know on the Japanese side is, if you can buy it new, either at the event itself or from a doujin shop like melonbooks or toranoana, then you should. But no one's going to kill you if you buy it from mandarake or surugaya if it's out of print. The kind of reselling they really hate is when their products show up on Amazon at five times the price the instant melonbooks runs out of stock, and the circle hasn't had time to reprint anything yet. Really obvious money grabbing, basically.

(I saw one of the books I own retail at 15,000 yen on Mandarake once... it cost 3000 yen new. That was an experience.)

[nightsparrow]

Since most artists sell their releases through shops like melonbooks/toranoana, I don't have any qualms about buying a second hand copy off mandarake.

No actually, pertaining to the whole issue, while it is rather morally wrong to some people to resell items at a marked price for a profit, it's something that just can't be stopped. Whatever you do, people are going to do it anyway. So I find worrying about it is, frankly, quite a waste of time as I, a consumer, can't really do anything about it.

Oh, and welcome to the forums!

Thanks for the welcome!

Yeah, I certainly don't think there's any issue at play when an artist has purposefully chosen to distribute through a shop. So, buying new releases from places like Melonbooks or Toranoana, or buying second-hand through respectful and commonly accepted avenues shouldn't be concerning in most cases.

I guess you're right in that it's not worth worrying too much about genuine, malicious re-sellers since there's not much that we as indiivudals can do about it. I'd rather not do business with them, however, and I guess what I'm looking for is just clarification on where re-selling actually manages to cross that line with creators.

I don't see personally issue in second hand sales, which creates a customer-to-customer relationship. One person ditches his product and the other buys. Whether the original owner sells this at a profit or not, is in my opinion not the concern of the author. The author originally received its value when the customer initially purchased the good. Of course this is strict in c2c cases.

Resellers, not being authorised to resell and whether they copy the work or not, remains an illegal activity. (White Canvas deal I believe is a good example?). Mandarake is a 2nd hand reseller which facilitates the process as a physical store. I don't see issues in this either because they aren't reselling unauthorized. I am not sure if you should approach this from an ethical point of view. I don't see the ethical problem here and couldn't elicit it clearly from your post either.

Also you're mentioning end-of-life doujin products. But what defines "The end of life" of a product? A book, comic or news paper article have a life cycle? Comics are well known to be sometimes even rare and kept around for generations, just to view back on the era of comics and similar. (Kyoto Manga Museum). Why would a doujin product have an end of life? The only ending they will have is when their owners ditch them. And that is where it either becomes recycled paper/trash or ends up at a second hand shop. Meaning it will get a new life if there is a new owner. None of this concerns the original author.

I guess in this case, I'm defining the end of a doujin's life as the point where the original creator has stopped producing and selling it, which tends to happen rather quickly with all but the largest of circles (Shanghai Alice and Tasofro being two of them). Until that point is reached, there's zero moral ambiguity in acquiring something since you always have the most mutually preferable option available to you, which is buying directly from the artist or a store with which they're affiliated.

I suppose the core of my concern lies in how doujin creators perceive other avenues for the distribution of their work for when buying from them directly isn't an option, even as those avenues become successively further removed from themselves. What's their stance on customer-to-customer relationships? How do they feel about seeing their works being sold in places like Mandarake and Surugaya? And how do those avenues differ radically from re-selling that an author would consider unacceptable?

Basically, where do creators draw the line between what they genuinely like, what they merely tolerate, and what they would rather not see happen? I think the opinion you've shared on this so far is a fair take on that question for me.

I'm guessing what you're asking is 'is it okay to buy a second hand copy of a doujin product that's out of print or no longer being sold by the original circle?' The general impression I get from the people I know on the Japanese side is, if you can buy it new, either at the event itself or from a doujin shop like melonbooks or toranoana, then you should. But no one's going to kill you if you buy it from mandarake or surugaya if it's out of print. The kind of reselling they really hate is when their products show up on Amazon at five times the price the instant melonbooks runs out of stock, and the circle hasn't had time to reprint anything yet. Really obvious money grabbing, basically.

(I saw one of the books I own retail at 15,000 yen on Mandarake once... it cost 3000 yen new. That was an experience.)

That's pretty much what I'm asking, yes. My first instinct will always be to buy either from the artist directly or from an authorized doujin shop. Failing that, the options left from my perspective are basically to buy from a 'good' (in the views of the artist) re-seller or from a 'bad' re-seller.

I was concerned that what I might think is 'good' re-selling might in fact be bad as well since I don't have much knowledge of etiquette in the doujin community. But the Japanese side of things that you've shared here seems to be quite reasonable and not too far off from what I'd originally been hoping for.

And haha, yes, that must have been an experience. Not Touhou-related, but that's certainly happened to me with a few rare CDs and games I've purchased in the past and all I can think is that I'm glad that I bought them back then.