Touhou RAGE Thread

[Naut]

See attached for lunatic Apollo 13 safespot abuse. Not me playing.

I think this is the correct replay, anyway.

[LHCling]

Before I went to 6A Practice for IN, I attempted another Lunatic Run. With Yuyuko solo.

BAD things happened with Mystia, and hence I failed at Keine (lack of lives/bombs). Try it yourself and see what I mean...  >_>

The horror. Wasted 2 lives (and bombs) on a single non-spell card.

---

And that safespot is far too small (at the higher difficulties). I knew that was the spot you're talking about. Interesting that the Border Team (as usual) has more leeway with the spot. Using any other will result in pixel perfect dodging or death (tried it just then).

I find it easier to actually dodge the spell card normally anyways.

[Vile Lasagna]

Playing Border team on IN is like playing with any other team on one difficulty lower...

[Naut]

I find it easier to actually dodge the spell card normally anyways.

It exists and is more than attainable on hard and lunatic, but it really not worth going for since the pattern only takes a few tries to read anyway. Plus you don't need that wussy safespot shit.

I do not advocate the safespot faggotry, I'm just saying that it is there, and possible.


On somewhat of a tangent:
Not to refute this "Reimu has a smaller hitbox and is thus easier" thing, but is there any proof that she does in any game except PCB? I don't notice it when I play IN, and I'm almost positive that it's the same size as Marisa's in SA and MoF, but I havent checked. I hear about it alot, and would like to know where it comes from.

I do know about that massive deathbomb time though, I don't even know what ZUN was thinking with that. Lunatic IN is a walk in the park compared to EoSD or even PCB, just for that reason alone. Didn't even need to have the ability to practice every card whenever you want...

[theshirn]

I know Reimu/Yukari do in IN, simply because with them you can stay at the very bottom of the screen on Xu Fu's Dimension, while with other teams you have to move up.  Don't know about the others.

[LHCling]

n somewhat of a tangent:
Not to refute this "Reimu has a smaller hitbox and is thus easier" thing, but is there any proof that she does in any game except PCB? I don't notice it when I play IN, and I'm almost positive that it's the same size as Marisa's in SA and MoF, but I havent checked. I hear about it alot, and would like to know where it comes from.

I do know about that massive deathbomb time though, I don't even know what ZUN was thinking with that. Lunatic IN is a walk in the park compared to EoSD or even PCB, just for that reason alone. Didn't even need to have the ability to practice every card whenever you want...

I can't show data proof of it, but its possible to demonstrate how close each person can get to the same bullet before "touching" it. It does say in the description (for PCB and IN) that Reimu does have a smaller hitbox.

And that deathbomb time... FAR too long.

---

Easiest spell card of 6A is now Game of Life. Its 100% hitbox-bullet confidence. You can get very close to the center of the bubble bullets (unlike in EoSD). Easier (and probably) better if I used TAS to micro-move myself to the position.

And Earth in a Pot is harder than Galaxy in a Pot? Why do I find this so?

I know Reimu/Yukari do in IN, simply because with them you can stay at the very bottom of the screen on Xu Fu's Dimension, while with other teams you have to move up.  Don't know about the others.

Not quite... I can move freely on the bottom as well with the others. Its just that the familiars collide on you. Reimu / Yukari / Other Youkai-types are immune to this. Until red amulets appear that is. But wait a moment... if the red ones appear, and Reimu / Yukari are unaffected... That means...

[Kefit]

Not to refute this "Reimu has a smaller hitbox and is thus easier" thing, but is there any proof that she does in any game except PCB? I don't notice it when I play IN, and I'm almost positive that it's the same size as Marisa's in SA and MoF, but I havent checked. I hear about it alot, and would like to know where it comes from.

Really, you should be able to conclusively tell that the hitbox sizes are different by simply playing the games a bunch with different types. For instance, I can tell almost immediately in MoF when I am using Marisa's clunkier hitbox. It's not a wonderful feeling. But if you need more solid evidence:

Reimu's hitbox graphic in MoF and SA is smaller than Marisa's. Use the width of the numbers in the Faith and Reception scores in the lower left corner of the screen as a static indicator to gauge the sizes of the hitbox graphics with each other.

If that doesn't convince you then go play Lunatic Satori with Reimu, then with Marisa. Go back and forth a few times.

If you still can't tell the difference then you don't have any business playing these games on a difficulty on which your hitbox size actually matters.

I do know about that massive deathbomb time though, I don't even know what ZUN was thinking with that. Lunatic IN is a walk in the park compared to EoSD or even PCB, just for that reason alone.

It makes surprisingly little difference on the lowest end of the Lunatic 1cc scale. At that level of play you can't afford to be deathbombing in IN, since doing so eats up twice as many bombs. Each and every bomb is important to cheesing your way to an early Lunatic 1cc, so nearly every bomb should be planned out in advance.

[Naut]

That's awesome.

I don't plan shit all, I don't play enough to notice a pixel in hitbox width difference in SA, and I certainly don't care if it did exist. I did know that Marisa has a slightly larger horizontal graze distance, but I didn't care since no, it doesn't affect my gameplay. I still rush into lunatic guns blazing. True, I probably won't get decent 1cc lunatic runs, but I have beaten IN lunatic several times with all the characters, and I still don't notice this hitbox shit (that is, until theshim mentioned that nifty Xu Fu hitbox trick, pretty convincing).

Like really. I have maybe 80 tries on my highest tried card on IN, that were mine anyway. I don't play that much. Ahh wait, I have 150 on Unseasonable Butterfly Storm because I fuckin' love it, and 140 on Flawless Nirvana because it's pretty beast too.

And I do have business playing on lunatic, because even with me not giving a rat's ass about minute hitbox size variations, I can still beat it. It matters to you, who is much more of a perfectionist than me, but no sir, it probably does not matter to lunatic runners in general.

Maybe Cave Ultra mode runners, but let's not go there.

[Vile Lasagna]

If that doesn't convince you then go play Lunatic Satori with Reimu, then with Marisa

This... Whenever I get to Satori non-spells it gets BLATANTLY OBVIOUS how smaller Reimu's hitbox is... especially on the first one with the bubbles.
It's like a   "Oh... oh yeah.. I'm playing Reimu today.... " kind of feeling

[SP]

The hitbox differences make it really hard for me to play anyone other than Reimu in some of the games.  I've got some of the hitbox stuff so memorized that I'll play some other character, predict a miss, get hit, then get pissed.  It doesn't really matter since Reimu is my favorite character to play, but meh.

[Naut]

I aparently need to play more if everybody and their mother notices this sfoolishness, and I don't. Bleh.

[Garlyle]

Don't worry, Naut, I don't play enough to notice it either.  Then again, I tend to find one shot type I like in each game and stick with it.  EoSD was Marisa B, PCB is Sakuya B, IN is Reimu/Yukari, MoF is MarisaBugged... SA's about the only one I'm changing up on, and I haven't played it enough in sequence to really be able to feel the difference.

Also, on the subject of Kanako: She's the one fight in MoF I actually like during the main game.  Mostly because MoF is not at all interesting to me - I don't like the first half of the cast (Aya onwards I enjoy), and very little of the Danmaku feels particularly interesting or challenging for some reason, excluding Suwako's spellcards.  Still, for the main game, Kanako at least seems impressive, intimidating, and important of a fight.

[Vile Lasagna]

Also, on the subject of Kanako: She's the one fight in MoF I actually like during the main game.  Mostly because MoF is not at all interesting to me - I don't like the first half of the cast (Aya onwards I enjoy), and very little of the Danmaku feels particularly interesting or challenging for some reason, excluding Suwako's spellcards.  Still, for the main game, Kanako at least seems impressive, intimidating, and important of a fight.

I sense a serious lack of love for Nitori in your comments... repent and go back to the path of righteousness

[Vile Lasagna]

Because I couldn't even look at Orin's face anymore I decided to go play some carefree PCB to relax a little. I did a practice of Stage 4 (can never practice that one enough, so many traps to fall into u.u) and went very well. Because of that I decided to try and play through the game. I go through the first 2 stages on perfect as I already expect of myself but lose 2 lives to Alice, one of them to her second mid-boss attack (LOLWUT?!?!?!) Then I once again play quite well on Stage 4, actually, but the curse descends, bombs don't happen, death fairy decides she's not dying today... Merlin's ghosts kill me TWICE (I fail once. Then as I come back, enraged, sleepy and depressed, invincibility wears out as a ghost is passing right through me). I manage to finish them off without dying again, but the damage is done... After Alice I didn't really have any faith anymore of finishing this but I go well against Youmu, my mortal enemy (BOMBS AWAY!!!) and manage to reach Stage 6 with 2 lives in stock. I decide I'll go until where I can, why the hell not. Again bombs and borders carry me gracefully through Youmu and JUST as Yuyuko is appears my sound decides to crash on me. CURSE YOU SRS SANDBOX!! I SHOULD **NOT** HAVE WAITED FOR THE TRIAL TO EXPIRE BEFORE BALLETING YOU!!!
I turn my speakers off and decide to wait until I die... Despite horrible failures and lies I actually managed to make it to...to..shit... I RAGE'D so much I forgot the card's name. I actually got to the card where she throws the ghosts on you that explode into shiny and hateful butterflies. I decided to break a border to gain some time but did not pay enough attention to the butterfly spawn, they escaped and raped the hell out of my last life with all four bombs...

It was not meant to be u.u

[theshirn]

Well, I for one am RAGING GODDAMN MAD.

Just tried IN Hard.  Stage 1, at least, let me through without trouble.  Stage 2 clipped me twice - both complete crap - and then Stage 3 and Keine had clipdeaths galore.  Marisa let loose a few good ones of her own, and I get to Stage 5 1/1.  I don't do abnormally horrifically on Reisen (meaning I played like utter crap), and I get to Stage 6 again 1/1.

First bomb to the fairies at the beginning.

Death to the first wave of fairies.

Another death on the fourth.  No, I didn't even make it to Eirin, much less Kaguya.  Two UTTER CRAP deaths on the GODDAMN FAIRIES.  Who, incidentally, picked the three farthest points from each other to appear.  I'd never seen anything like it.

So I gave Hourai Jewel a couple dozen practice runs, and screwed it up - laughably - every time.  I'm complete crap at that card anyway.

Mokou runs, at least, usually make me feel better.  Odd, but true.  IN Extra is the only one I can sit down and beat almost every time.  This is a perfectly normal run (screw up two out of three of Keine's cards), right up until the GODDAMN CLIPDEATH ON FLYING PHOENIX.  You know, the REALLY FREAKIN' EASY CARD THAT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO SCREW UP ONCE YOU KNOW HOW IT WORKS?  YEAH.  THAT ONE.  I didn't even clip the phoenix - which has happened before - I clipped on of the freakin' red bullets.

Then I went for Lunatic Kanako runs.  Mindless fun.  Even captured Yamato Torus and Source of Rains again.  But every time, every time, EVERY GODDAMN TIME, the blue/green wave of Virtue of Wind God walled me.  Not once.  Not twice.  Not even a whole bunch of times.  EVERY SINGLE ONE of the blue/green waves was a pair of greens plugged by a blue.

I.
AM.
RAGING.

[theshirn]

And to cap it all off, attempting a last run of IN crashed my computer!

[nintendonut888]

So I was playing EoSD lunatic through stage practice, and when it came to stage 6 I foolishly tried capturing Eternal Meek. I actually got close at points, but I kept dying. More than that though, I couldn't help but feel that Marisa was moving right even after I pressed left. So I did some experimenting, and discovered something to my horror:

My right arrow key lags. I tested it thoroughly, and at least on EoSD there's a noticeable lag for Marisa to stop moving right. All the other directions stopped on a dime, but not right.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

EDIT: Okay, it seems like it's only on EoSD. If it happens in PCB it's not noticeable.

I tested it on stage 5 BTW. Hell God Sword once again was all that ruined a perfect Youmu battle. ;_;

[Sodium]

So I was playing EoSD lunatic through stage practice, and when it came to stage 6 I foolishly tried capturing Eternal Meek. I actually got close at points, but I kept dying. More than that though, I couldn't help but feel that Marisa was moving right even after I pressed left. So I did some experimenting, and discovered something to my horror:

My right arrow key lags. I tested it thoroughly, and at least on EoSD there's a noticeable lag for Marisa to stop moving right. All the other directions stopped on a dime, but not right.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

EDIT: Okay, it seems like it's only on EoSD. If it happens in PCB it's not noticeable.

I tested it on stage 5 BTW. Hell God Sword once again was all that ruined a perfect Youmu battle. ;_;

New keyboard, you must get one.

SA Stage 5 doesn't want to be unlocked for stage practice D=

[theshirn]

DRGBLKAbjvfsjkaevfgsdjkavhkjasvfhgsjkafgsejkabvfgsej,bvfg

I tried IN Hard.  You have never seen such purified BS.  I didn't even make it past Marisa.

Then I tried PCB Hard.  Chen and Alice were their usual cheap selves, but I kept going.  Prismrivers cost me a single bomb, on Merlin's opener.  Youmu more than made up for that, though.  Seven bombs in stock from two WTF deaths.  I somehow also failed to hit the 800 life - which I've never done before - and then Yuyuko jumped on the BS wagon by making me bomb Lost Soul's Village, and eating a border AND TWO BOMBS on Mortality.  I game overed on her next normal attack.

[Sodium]

DRGBLKAbjvfsjkaevfgsdjkavhkjasvfhgsjkafgsejkabvfgsej,bvfg

I tried IN Hard.  You have never seen such purified BS.  I didn't even make it past Marisa.

IN hard is easy(well, easier then EoSD, and PCB). =|

[theshirn]

IN hard is easy(well, easier then EoSD, and PCB). =|

I know this.  Thus:

DRGBLKAbjvfsjkaevfgsdjkavhkjasvfhgsjkafgsejkabvfgsej,bvfg

[Azinth]

While we're on the subject of IN...

I always thought this game had really easy stage portions, almost as easy as EoSD's.  But now I'm playing with the Magic Team, and OH GOD THIS IS SOME BULLSHIT.  What the hell was ZUN thinking?  Did he take the Magic Team into any consideration at all when designing this game?  Wait, no need to ask that, we all know the answer.

I play through stage 3 and 4 with all those enemies that come from opposite ends of the screen, and no matter what order I try to kill them in, I just can't do it fast enough before they flood the screen with crap.  Even the usually pathetic stage 5 gets some turns punching me in the face(those purple-blue bullet shooting rabbits...).  And stage 6 can also be annoying when the fairies spawn in places you can't reach them.  Also, the inability to kill enemies can make it extremely hard to autocollect sometimes.  Ironic considering they're the ones with the instantaneous PoC ability. 

Luckily the Malice Cannon makes up for the horrible stages-Keine and Tewi basically get turned into speedbumps, and it does a good number on a lot of Kaguya's attacks too.  Reimu is complete hell though.  The more I play with them, the more I'm thinking that the Malice Cannon was intentional on ZUN's part.  It's the only thing that saves them from unplayability.  I'm still gonna 1cc Lunatic with them though. >_>

[nintendonut888]

Malice Cannon is cheating, you know that right?

[Azinth]

Malice Cannon is cheating, you know that right?

It's the only thing that saves them from unplayability.

The few parts that the Malice Cannon can cheese through are made up for by the parts where the Magic Team's horrible range completely screws them over.  It's a fair tradeoff if you ask me.

[Serp]

Malice Cannon is cheating, you know that right?

How exactly do you distinguish between a cheating technique and a legitimate one?

[theshirn]

Well, that SUCKED.  Tried Lunatic IN for kicks, got through Reisen with two continues.  Notable captures included Double Spark.

Then tried Mokou again.  LOLDOUBLEKILL POSSESSED BY PHOENIX LOLOLOL.  LOL DEATH AS FUJIYAMA VOLCANO CLEARED.  LOL NO KEINE CAPTURES.

Died on Hourai Doll.  Utter crap.

[nintendonut888]

How exactly do you distinguish between a cheating technique and a legitimate one?

Is it breaking abusing a programming oversight? If so, it's cheating. I don't consider loopholes in spell cards cheating, but stuff like Marisa B(ugged) is.

[Kefit]

Malice Cannon is not cheating. Nearly every Magic Team replay in existence, from both sides of the Pacific, uses it at some point. It may not have been an intended gameplay element, but it is sufficiently non-game-breaking that it has been accepted as a legitimate technique by the greater Touhou community.

Donut, you may have some highly pure view of how these games should be played, but that doesn't mean that your views are line with the greater community standards of what is and isn't acceptable in these games.

[nintendonut888]

My opinions have always been unpopular in everything ever, so that's not surprising. >_>

[Serp]

Is it breaking abusing a programming oversight? If so, it's cheating. I don't consider loopholes in spell cards cheating, but stuff like Marisa B(ugged) is.

That's a fine definition, but it ceases to be an oversight when it's brought to the programmer's attention and he's had a chance to fix it.  Neither the Malice cannon nor MarissaBugged have been fixed, despite plenty of time in which to do so.  At this point, you really have to blame the programmer rather than the players if you consider those strategies unbalanced.