Touhou Smash Bros Project (Development & info thread)

[Savory]

I would love it if the faces are more anime-like.  They look kind of creepy, especially the eyes...

No offense...

I second that...

[Saijee]

This is what a few of the faces actually look like up close in static:
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2uqg37c.jpg

You are correct in noticing that they are not done in an anime style.

Depending on how *something* about this project goes much later on, I may or may not make higher quality revamped graphics. But it is safe to say that this is what I have in order to work with for making the game right now.

If I may ask, would you elaborate upon this "creepyness" you speak of?

[Savory]

If I may ask, would you elaborate upon this "creepyness" you speak of?

It's just how realistic they look. It's a bit unsettling. Especially on younger characters like Cirno and Flandre where the faces don't really match them at all. Like game2011 said, it'd look better if a more cartoony anime style was used for them instead.

[Kyouma]

you could rather leave the models to me since I am a SSBB model importer and you can make an engine for the game that reads the .pac/.pcs files from brawl in order of having a closer experience to what the actual brawl is





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afvk5aMDiw8

[Saijee]

But aren't those models from MMD? I don't think that will be necessary.

As I recall the only concern is the style that the faces are drawn, keep on elaborating, I'm jotting down notes. I don't think it is anything beyond my abilities, but I would really appreciate very specific details over broad ones.

[Savory]

I'm probably speaking for myself, but I'm just more used to seeing the Touhou characters portrayed more in an brighter anime style than the contrary. Again, maybe that's just me.

[Saijee]

I was never really convinced that Touhou is meant to look like anime, at least not exclusively. Especially seeing as how the official game art doesn't seem to resemble anime art:


The tolerance and/or acceptance for variation that can be dealt with stylization of the Touhou characters has always been an aspect of it that fascinated me, especially when it comes to fan art like these:

[Prime32]

As I recall the only concern is the style that the faces are drawn, keep on elaborating, I'm jotting down notes. I don't think it is anything beyond my abilities, but I would really appreciate very specific details over broad ones.

I'm okay with the current style, and not really one to be giving artistic advice anyway, but... maybe the noses are too low, and their bridges too pronounced?

Also, another character writeup:

Youmu
Youmu is a light, fast character with a relatively small hitbox. Her jumps are fast and high and she can wall jump, but she also falls fast and is generally at her best on the ground anyway. She has an iaido theme running through her moveset - three of her specials can be charged (Ten Desires anyone?), and the last one is a parry.
In most Touhou games Youmu has odd mechanics that make her powerful but hard to master, which is worth bearing in mind.

Aerials

• Down - Slashing a Flower Upon One's Head: Meteor smash. Shoots almost straight downwards with her sword held out in front of her, and cannot be cancelled until it hits the ground.
  

Smash Attacks

• Side - Secret of Life and Death: Youmu pushes forward and slashes the target, dealing decent damage and knocking them back a fixed distance. Then her ghost half transforms into a transparent copy of her physical body, chases down the target and attacks them again with half the damage but much greater knockback. It's possible to dodge the second attack after being hit by the first.
  
• Down - Meditation Slash: Youmu charges her sword with green energy and swings it down as it extends to great length. At full charge it becomes Rise From Delusion, which is blue and has greater reach.
  

Specials

• Neutral - Lotus Stance Cut: A chargable sword slash that sends out a large, slow-moving projectile with decent damage but poor knockback. The blade itself also hits with a significant amount of force, possibly with shield-breaking properties.
  
• Side - Slash of Present: Similar to Ike's Quick Draw. Youmu crouches and sheathes her sword, then slashes with it while shooting forward.
  
• Up - Crescent Moon Slash: Sweeping upwards slash in a wide arc that sends Youmu upwards. On the ground Youmu strikes twice and it can be charged for greater power and reach. In the air Youmu makes a single, slower strike which cannot be charged but grants more super armor.
  
• Down - Insightful Sword: The most powerful parry move in the game. Similar to Marth/Ike/Roy's Counter, but can also reflect projectiles if timed well (albeit without a damage multiplier).
  

Throws

• Forward - Sword of Cycles: Repeatedly swings her sword in a wide arc, leaving circles of pink light, then finishes off with a horizontal slash that knocks enemies forward.
  
• Reverse - Intolerant Avici: It's one of the few canonical throw moves so it pretty much has to be in here. Has low power, but a long hitstun which makes it possible to chain grab.
  
• Up - Ascension to Nirvana: Slashes with both swords, creating a blast of pink light that knocks enemies upwards.
  
• Down:
  

I wanted to get in some version of Medium's Bind (the SWR move where she launches her ghost half at the opponent from long range), but I was worried it would dilute the theme (Youmu shouldn't have a lot of projectiles, and sword beams seem more iconic).

[Saijee]

I'm going to continue NOT confirming or denying any character yet.

But Prime32's post did make me remember about some things that I think would make for interesting Smash Touhou Parallels. That is, Youmu has Myon. She is a 2 part character. And I think there are a number of other examples in touhou that have the potential to deliver something of an Ice Climbers or Rosa-luma combination.

Again, not confirming or denying anything, but I'd really love to hear possible ideas for movesets of these partner, or group type characters (picmin and olimar?).

Also---- I was wondering if anyone wanted one of the unspeaking characters as a playable? I mean the likes of Greater Fairy, Little Devil, Momiji and the such.

Or maybe something confusingly uncanny. Like Solo-Myon or Ran Yakumo.... Rinnosuke?

Again nothing is decided yet. Just wanted to put this post out there to let you know that anything is possible.

[Prime32]

On the faces thing here's a quick edit I threw together, adjusting the nose upwards and also adding lines for eyelids. Dunno if it's better or worse.

EDIT:

I'm going to continue NOT confirming or denying any character yet.

But Prime32's post did make me remember about some things that I think would make for interesting Smash Touhou Parallels. That is, Youmu has Myon. She is a 2 part character. And I think there are a number of other examples in touhou that have the potential to deliver something of an Ice Climbers or Rosa-luma combination.

Again, not confirming or denying anything, but I'd really love to hear possible ideas for movesets of these partner, or group type characters (picmin and olimar?).

Hmmm... What about this? Seiga is a lightweight ranged type. Her Down Special summons Yoshika, who is powerful and incredibly resistant to knockback but has limited hp, and places her under player control. Seiga continues to float behind Yoshika (even passing through walls :]) and perform slower/weaker versions of her normal Specials, while Yoshika herself has a different set of physical attacks that sometimes involve Seiga's assistance. I guess it's less Ice Climbers/Rosalina, more of an elaborate version of Wario's Bike.

Though I figure the easiest Rosalina type to implement is probably Sekibanki. Her spell cards aren't that abstract compared to most of her competition, so there's not as much need to make stuff up. (Neutral special is eye beams! Recover by throwing her head and having it reel in her body!) She's maybe a dullahan, so maybe have her use a spine whip in some attacks. And in any case one of her attacks must be named Dark Matter Blaze. :V

Or maybe something confusingly uncanny. Like Solo-Myon or Ran Yakumo.... Rinnosuke?

There's the Sealing Club, though I imagine they'd have weird attack animations like falling over, pointing at things or dropping random objects from their stories. They could have a teleport move though I guess.

Rinnosuke at least has a gun, a magic katana, and random heavy merchandise he can bludgeon people with. (maybe a taser? :V)

[Savory]

I was never really convinced that Touhou is meant to look like anime, at least not exclusively. Especially seeing as how the official game art doesn't seem to resemble anime art.

Well okay, I stand corrected. As I said, I was just speaking for myself. I've gotten used to seeing a lot of Touhou fanart taking inspiration from various anime styles. And with Smash 4 having a sort of bright colorful style to it, I thought it might be fitting to do the same with this.

But Prime32's post did make me remember about some things that I think would make for interesting Smash Touhou Parallels. That is, Youmu has Myon. She is a 2 part character. And I think there are a number of other examples in touhou that have the potential to deliver something of an Ice Climbers or Rosa-luma combination.

Again, not confirming or denying anything, but I'd really love to hear possible ideas for movesets of these partner, or group type characters (picmin and olimar?).

I was thinking that Alice could work somewhat like Olimar, but I haven't fully planned how it'd work yet.

And all I have concerning Youmu is the Quick Draw idea. To explain again, Quick Draw was my idea for a unique gameplay style for Youmu which involved her making use of either Roukanken or Hakurouken. Roukanken is longer, slower and deals more damage. Hakurouken is shorter, faster, but deals less damage. Quick Draw is a down special move that lets Youmu exchange blades. It worked with a sword gauge above her damage percentage. If you used Quick Draw when this gauge is full, Youmu will perform a powerful slash as she unsheathes her sword, heavily damaging enemies nearby.

This idea was inspired by the Quick Draw mechanic in Muramasa the Demon Blade. You could equip a maximum of three swords each with different attributes. But the blades can break, forcing you to exchange them through Quick Draw. Not only did Quick Draw change swords, but if you did this when a sword broke, or when the sword you're switching to is fully powered, you'll perform a widescreen slash for huge damage on enemies.

Also---- I was wondering if anyone wanted one of the unspeaking characters as a playable? I mean the likes of Greater Fairy, Little Devil, Momiji and the such.

I did think that possibly Koakuma could be part of Patchouli's recovery special, sort of acting as how Tails does in the Sonic games when he carries Sonic.

Anyway, here's another possible character idea.

Young Reimu*
*basically PC-98 Reimu

Entrance: Runs in, but trips slightly. She stops herself, and pulls out her purification rod.
Icon: Yin-Yang Orb

Neutral Special: Search Shot
-Young Reimu fires a single white amulet that homes in slightly on nearby opponents. If you charge this move, she will shoot a much larger amulet.

Side Special: Power Slide
-Young Reimu performs a sliding kick that goes for a reasonable distance, knocking away any enemy in her path. This also reflects thrown items and projectiles.

Up Special: Spiritual Flight
-Young Reimu uses Spiritual Power to fly for a while. But, she's still training in the art of flying efficiently, so if she's hit while using this move, she'll lose her concentration and will fall, helpless.

Down Special: Descending Yin-Yang Orb
-Young Reimu points with her gohei, causing a Yin-Yang Orb to drop on the head of a nearby opponent. The yin-yang orb is usually black and white, but at certain intervals, a more powerful red and white orb will fall.

Final Word: Sealing Ritual Practice
-Young Reimu strikes an opponent with her purification rod, sealing them within a hokura shrine. Young Reimu will proceed to give a short prayer whilst waving around the rod. After a short while, the shrine will explode as the trapped character is launched away and Young Reimu bounces in celebration.

[Prime32]

Young Reimu*
*basically PC-98 Reimu

No Genji as a third jump? :V

[Savory]

No Genji as a third jump? :V

Isn't Genji kinda large? xD That's my only reason for excluding him from Young Reimu's moveset.

Also, if we're talking characters similar to the Ice Climbers/Rosalina & Luma, how about Ran and Chen?

[Kyouma]

I dont see whats the problem with using MMD models; theire pretty neat and IMO, they look better than the ones youre making.
But apart from the model stuff, have you planned the programming and the serious and tedious stuff about the game yet? We dont want it to stay as a dream-type project where the moveset and all are planned but no actual progress on the game on itself

[Colticide]

I think the faces get unsettling when you look at them up close (I can't really say as to how though), but with the images in the OP they look fine for a few reasons. 1. your not gonna see the faces as a focus anyway, you will still see them but with how SSB plays you won't be staring at it. 2. I'm sure the faces will be animated a bit as well. Like the Tenshi in the OP, she looks fine to me she has emotion to her and it takes away that "creepiness".

[Saijee]

@Kyouma, from what I understand about Touhou fangames: You are not supposed to (or at least, it is frowned upon when you) use resources that are not meant for the project. And if you do, people will not take the game as serious as they would had all of the resources been original creations specially for the game, or otherwise just resources that were created by the team from a previous game (like Touhouvania and Touhouvania 2). From Soy Sauce is an actual registered Doujin Circle at any rate.

IMO, they look better than the ones youre making

Thank you for your frankness but FSS does not use 3D models or animations that other people create, unless they are commissioned by us.
 
Rest assured, this is no phantasm of a project. This is indeed a real project that I am really going to program. It's going to be made using Anim8or to make the 3D models, Maya to animate, and Unity for the actual game. If I have not stated before, a playable build is planned to be all ready for the public at the end of this year. And I will devote more attention to this project then I will even to my own college education.

And yes, I AM SOOOO SERIOUS about this project. I am no slouch when it comes to making video games or animation. Just try out the last game I made and see for yourself, it was a game made for the 64 digits spring contest to make a game in just 30 days, I got 3rd place with my entree, a Zelda OoT inspired adventure that drives it's narrative experience from psychological horror, try it out right now if you will:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p3rg9WNCiY&feature=youtu.be


@ Colticide, yes they do look better when given expressions as can be seen here:

[Savory]

In that case, I'll be waiting to see how this turns out.  :3

I was a little unsure before because I'm more used to a cartoony anime style with the characters. Like in games such as Touhou Sky Arena  and Maihana Ao Makyou.

[Saijee]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But is your case similar to this: It's not exactly that the western appearance looked creepy to you, but rather it was a confusing surprise to see 3D renditions of Touhou characters NOT done in anime style?

Let me make something clear, I am not offended, and I don't mean to come off as a jerk, but as you may have noticed I do like to press. But I do not press in retaliation but in hopes of enlightenment, as I wish to understand things that I am having problems seeing the problems too.

The more western art style is something that is actually quite important to me. I do actually try to put an amount of attention to detail on specific things (like how Reimu's face is specifically designed to look more Japanese than the others, and similarly Meiling's looks more Chinese ). However, I am willing to be flexible to a point, so long as you all can elaborate on the details that leave you dumbfounded, disturbed or otherwise unaccepting.

@Savory, it is not too late for me to make the textures more vibrant in color, and I also intend to have them be a much higher resolution.
I'll do my best by putting out side-by-sides (like prime32) to gather your collective input on preferences for the direction of this style. Here is the first question I have for you:

What should the head proportion be?

[Savory]

I hope I don't come off as being rude, but it was moreso the style of faces for some of the characters that kinda unnerved me. Especially for the younger looking characters like Cirno and Flandre in the facial features and head shape. In general, I'm just more used to the anime style, like the ones I linked to before. I don't mean any offense, though. Please don't let that discourage you. It's just visual preference for the most part.

Also, to answer your question, I think 7 heads tall looks better. That's about average anyway.

[Saijee]

Not rude, it's a good amount of constructive criticism for now, gives me some idea of what direction to go from here.

There is a difference between saying that: "the circle should be smaller," and "I don't like circles, it should be a triangle."

I am under the opinion that Touhou can look good done in a western art style, and I'd like you all to help me with making that so with your individual input from your unique perspective, instead of ignoring the challenge and switching to an anime likeness.

But I do want to stress, again, that I am listening for comments that I can deduce instruction from to modify the style within a reasonable flexibility.

[Savory]

Ah, okay I'm relieved you're not upset.  If you still want to keep a western style, I still think going for something more animated and cartoony might be a thought. As I've said, Smash 4 seems to be going for that route after the realistic route Brawl took.

Oh, not to change the subject or anything, but I was brainstorming possible stages.

Hakurei Shrine
Misty Lake
Scarlet Devil Mansion
World 1-1 (New Super Marisa Land)
Netherworld
Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
Makai
Underground Geyser
Another Dimension
Twilight City (Uwabami Breakers)
Moriya Shrine
Military Base (Seihou)

Also, what do you think of adding a guest character? Like one from Seihou or Uwabami Breakers?

[Saijee]

I want this to be a prim and proper Touhou doujin fan game. So anything from the official games, PC98 games to the literature is fair game, but only what is actual Touhou.

[Savory]

Gotcha. I'll see what I can come up with then. Any comments on the movesets/ideas I've given thus far?

[Kyouma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N8BI8VhDwc
Do you think you can re-create this with that engine?

[Saijee]

@ Savory, well, like I keep on trying to point out. I'm just observing the discussions on the movesets and roster from a distance with my notebook and pen ready to take notes. I will say outright that I have the personal bias of liking the characters from EoSD and PCB more that the rest of the cast. And that is exactly why this topic exists in the first place, because I don't feel like I alone should be the one deciding who the Touhou fans want to appear in this game or how they should play like either. The actual discussion about it should be between you guys, which I noticed comes up occasionally, like a mention of Genji.

The final result of roster and moveset will be a combination of whatever I find to be popular opinion, and whatever I just imagine to be cool based on the way you guys describe it.

@Kyouma undoubtedly.

Look, if you want some kind of an evidence that I know what I'm doing and GW wasn't enough, at one point I was making a fighting game that had SSB ish controls, and you can see videos on how it worked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqQcBOK4Qw

While the game was not released, I did continue refining the concept quite a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X60ml3khsA&t=0m26s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmKxhbOGCdg

Now I'm not making Touhou Smash with the engine used in that video, I just wanted to put those out there so that you know that I know EXACTLY what I'm doing because I've been practicing making a platformer fighting game for years. And every time that I've practiced doing so I made a new fighting engine from scratch, and it always winded up looking and feeling better with every iteration.

The way I see it, Touhou Smash has been such a desired concept, that it is bedaffling that such a fan game has not faithfully exist yet. And I'm going to sound extremely arrogant when I say this, but if anybody can do it —and do it right— between my intense desire to see the concept become realized, my passion for the Touhou universe, my hope to make a major contribution to the fandom, and my years of practice making a platformer fighter game, I feel like I'm the kind of guy who can make it all happen.

[Savory]

@ Savory

Well okay. I was just hoping to get some feedback and suggestions. As usual, if anymore ideas come up, I'll be sure to post 'em. (Also, nice footage!)

On that note, I wanted to bring up stages again for a bit and describe them to some detail. However, based on the answer you gave me before, I have cut the Seihou stage, Military Base. But I kept Twilight City from Uwabami Breakers because I still feel it's fitting (the backstory involves Gensokyo). I wouldn't mind suggestions from everyone else concerning how these stages look and act, though!

Hakurei Shrine
*A normal stage with no stage hazards.

Misty Lake
*A giant lilypad will serve as the arena
*Some fairies will fly about in the background but will not disrupt the battle
*Wakasagihime will also surface and look upon the battle with curiosity. However, she will quickly flee if a character comes near her.
*A giant toad serves as the stage hazard, surfacing in the background to launch its tongue at the combatants. Being eaten results in an instant KO. If the toad misses, it will try again before giving up.

Scarlet Devil Mansion
*The SDM's roof will serve as the arena
*Flandre is the stage hazard and will appear in the background to attack the players with reckless abandon.

World 1-1 (New Super Marisa Land)
*A scrolling stage reminiscent of Mushroomy Kingdom from Brawl
*No stage hazards apart from bottomless pits and going off screen

Makai
*A Final Destination-type stage with combatants fighting on a massive chunk of earth floating through a strange realm.

Underground Geyser
*A shifting stage with the fighting taking place on a large elevating platform.
*First phase of the stage will start above ground as the platform begins to descend into a nuclear reactor.
*Once the platform reaches the bottom, a klaxon will blare after a while, sending the platform back to the surface.

Another Dimension
*An odd realm with creepy eyes in the background.
*A moving stage where fighters will have to jump on platforms in the midst of battle.
*Reaching the very top, a large gap will appear, sending the fighters back onto solid ground to repeat the climb again.

Twilight City (Uwabami Breakers)
*A stage set in a jazzy, mysterious city at night. A large skyscraper can be seem looming in the distance
*Similar to Smashville.
*Spectators watch in the back.

Genbu Ravine  (NEW)
*A stage set in a massive ravine sporting a waterfall in the background.
*Fighters duke it out whilst standing on a mass of land.
*Kappas will frolic about, but will not disrupt the fight.

I am not positive about what to do for Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum, the Netherworld or Moriya Shrine. Any ideas, guys?

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Sorry, I know it's kind of late to say that, but it's because I only read the topic again now.

It's on the faces thing. The models look great overall, as in: their bodies. But their faces are rather... weird and creepy, as it was mentioned previously. Even though the style looks fine on "adult" characters such as Sakuya or Meiling, I agree with Savory that it doesn't suit characters such as Rumia or Flandre.  It kinda makes me feel uncomfortable by looking at them, so I suggest changing those to an anime-esque "suave" style. It will suit them far more.

I'm aware that perhaps not everyone will agree with my opinion, but I'm pretty sure most of them would. At least it's what I could see from the majority here.

[Saijee]

This goes back to my analogy I posted a while back:

There is a difference between saying that: "the circle should be smaller," and "I don't like circles, it should be a triangle."

I don't think the style is the problem, but the execution of the style in application to the characters is. But It is really hard for me to make out your problems with said application when all I get as a "helpful" comment is "it looks creepy" I need to know "what" looks creepy about it. I need to be able to target the problem before making adjustments.

Let's try figure this out together 1 step at a time ok? I'm going to make a small mutation to the model every now and then, and you are going to tell me which version is a step in the right or wrong direction:

[Kimidori]

I will be blunt and honest here.

the face you are making here are fucking ugly and unpleasant to look at.

I'm not hating on it not being anime style, as I love u-joe russian style Touhou arts, but with your it's ugly and unpleasant to look at.

and I have already told you, there are no "mechanical" anime style art, just one style popular than another, right now the popular style is moe, but back in the 80s, it was not.

all the fanart you posted here are anime-styled in essence, they are slightly different because any artist worth their salt will have their distinct variant style to make them unique, that's also why anyone spent enough time collecting art will be able to tell the who drawn them,kozou, sayori, ke-ta, eho, amanojaku, an2a, banpai_akira are all famous artist, they all draw with their distinct style, they are all different enough that I can tell who draw which by glancing at them and guess what? in essence, they all draw in anime style, no one but possibly you would not call them anime-styled drawing.

[Saijee]

I'm getting pretty tired having to repeat myself:

It's not like I'm saying "If you don't like the art style, screw you"
I'm saying: "Tell me what it is about it that you don't like so I cam improve it."

And I think that you are wrong, the previously posted fan art isn't drawn in an anime style, nor is ZUN's art style anime. To suggest that an art style is dictated by the geographical location of the artist is far fetched.

Let Kimidori's post lay as a perfect example of what it means to be * not helping *