Author Topic: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)  (Read 209324 times)

ExPorygon

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #960 on: January 24, 2015, 07:54:40 AM »
I want to throw in my last two cents. I read that you said your fans were clamoring for a Wii U release of Touhou Smash, but NOWHERE did I ever see anyone asking for such a thing (I'm not implying that you're lying, I just haven't seen it myself). Even if they did, it's probably because you being a Wii U dev lead them to believe that you could do it and they didn't realize that it wasn't possible under ZUN's rules. I'll bet most of these fans will be just as satisfied with a PC game instead. I really don't see what advantages being on the Wii U bring to the table. Same with Steam, all it does is allow for more exposure which isn't really the point of a Doujin game. Unless you want to gain more notoriety, which is what I had suspected, being on Steam or Wii U shouldn't matter.

EDIT: Most of us are near positive that IGG sent what was essentially an automated email regarding the copyright takedown notice that WASNT directly from ZUN. It was filed to remove the campaign, nothing more. I don't know why you don't believe us.

Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #961 on: January 24, 2015, 08:07:47 AM »


EDIT: Most of us are near positive that IGG sent what was essentially an automated email regarding the copyright takedown notice that WASNT directly from ZUN. It was filed to remove the campaign, nothing more. I don't know why you don't believe us.

Saijee, if it's your legal advise that's talking you into this, if so not trust him! Believe me when I say you've gotten nothing but terrible advise, and I'm certain thus advisor of yours has no clue what he's talking about.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #962 on: January 24, 2015, 08:08:41 AM »
I actually believe I said that included non-fans too. You don't need to look any further than any comment thread under one of the many articles about TSSB that spun off of Nintendo Nuggets article.

Belief is a very strange thing, but we don't get to choose our own beliefs , those are things that we conclude based off our past experiences and accumulated knowledge of the world.

Reu

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #963 on: January 24, 2015, 08:16:08 AM »
I actually believe I said that included non-fans too. You don't need to look any further than any comment thread under one of the many articles about TSSB that spun off of Nintendo Nuggets article.

Belief is a very strange thing, but we don't get to choose our own beliefs , those are things that we conclude based off our past experiences and accumulated knowledge of the world.


And this is something you don't have much knowledge of in the first place.

Why WOULDN'T you believe the people who actually know about this culture?
Sometimes Streams at Hitbox.tv/Reu

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #964 on: January 24, 2015, 08:25:13 AM »
To Saijee,
Why don't you trust Ruw then?
He's even more of an expert in this thing than any of us. Give me an explanation, come on.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #965 on: January 24, 2015, 08:34:35 AM »
Simple: from what I've learned first hand with TSA: No means no, Silence means no.

So unless TSA does email us and/or otherwise make a public announcement pardoning FSS from copyright infringement I'm going to assume that it is a no, and I do not expect him to respond.

We had an agreement guys:
Fair enough, I told myself if one of you said you would listen then I'll send one more email.

I will make deal then. I'll send this email and relay the information on the forums exactly as they respond.

Regardless of whether FSS is clear of the copyright issue of the game though. We are not going to take the risk of continuing the smash game under the Touhou name for extra precautions.

However...if they say that FSS does indeed still have the ability to create a Touhou game then when the new game is finished, we will release a modded version of the game featuring the original roster and replace the character models. After the development of the new smash game is completed.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #966 on: January 24, 2015, 08:37:47 AM »
The point people are trying to make here is that if you do make two versions of the game, and you make them fully gameplay identical, one of the following two things is going to happen, and there will be absolutely no way to avoid it:

Scenario 1:

The "Touhou" version of the game released only through limited channels will be exactly what we expect, while the "non-Touhou" version of the game will actually just be a Touhou game with the serial numbers filed off.  Now, granted, this is not an unheard of thing to happen in doujin fangames in general, there are a very large number of Touhou fangames which are essentially "fan remake of X commercial game but we've changed everything to Touhou references."  Some of these do diverge from their source material a fair bit - Labyrinth of Touhou is clearly inspired by Etrian Odyssey, but actually plays much differently in practice, even once you get past the difference in dungeon perspective.  Puppet Dance Performance is clearly inspired by Pokemon but has some subtle, yet important, mechanical differences from the game it's referencing, and has its own unique maps and such.  For an example of the other way, Fushigi no Gensokyo, Touhou Soccer Moushuuden, or East Chemblem are all solid examples of Touhou fangames that are largely indistinguishable from the games they're based on in actual gameplay (Mystery Dungeon, Captain Tsubasa, and Fire Emblem, respectively).  East Chemblem's plot even largely hits most of the same notes as the canon Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon plot; it has unique maps and layouts, but the actual plot is mostly lifted from the canon game, only Marth is cosplaying as an adorable catgirl.  Honestly, I don't exactly see why this sword can't cut both ways, and I don't think it's as much of a potential problem as some others in this thread seem to.  (That said, it would possibly be very wise to still give ZUN/TSA a credit for the inspiration if you go this route, even if you end up making just one, non-Touhou version.  Something as simple as a nod in the Special Thanks section of the credits, although I'd probably ask for permission before doing it.  Better safe than sorry.) 

Scenario 2:

The "non-Touhou" version of the game will be its own thing with no real association with Touhou, and the "Touhou" version of the game won't play anything like the fandom would expect at all, because you'd be slapping Touhou skins on characters who don't have Touhou skillsets.  This is definitely the scenario where I feel it would be better to simply forgo making the "Touhou version" at all, because it wouldn't get the feel right.

I don't really see any middle ground between these possibilities so long as both versions of the game would have identical gameplay.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #967 on: January 24, 2015, 08:40:51 AM »
Speaking about the copyrights and responses from TSA: We actually still haven't seen anything of the e-mails you received from Fumio-san neither from IGG. Anything you say is fuzzy and shady and we see it as false information. I already suggested you a major solution to solve it very fast and easy, but you refused by posting some random html page about Privacy of Emails from some random author. Sorry, it isn't convincing for me and neither the community.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #968 on: January 24, 2015, 08:46:43 AM »
...is that so?

Okay, here's the thing. They won't email you back.

And did you forget what I said? Ruw is watching this thread as well. He knows what we're discussing here, and your problems.
Think about that for a minute.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #969 on: January 24, 2015, 08:50:33 AM »
I can't speak for Eastern culture here, but it's my impression re: Western culture that generally speaking, publishing private correspondence without the other party's express permission is at best generally considered very impolite, so I don't think what Saijee's saying here's especially weird.  (Also in my limited experience, public dissemination is often more strongly frowned upon when it concerns legal correspondence like C&D orders, threats to sue/offers of settlement, etc.

In short while it admittedly does damage Saijee's credibility to not publish or privately disseminate the e-mails, I do think he is in the right in choosing not to do so without receiving Oyamada-san's explicit permission to do so.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #970 on: January 24, 2015, 08:55:22 AM »
Nobody said to post the e-mail here in public (well before, but that was because FSS said: "We will not hold back information!!"). I told him to show it to one of the doujin experts and translators (Cuc/Forza/Monhan) in PM, to confirm whether they understood or not.

For example I am waiting for a reply from ZUN. Except my Japanese isn't proficient and thus I will privately show the e-mail to a person I know and trust so he can advice/direct me. This is pretty normal and in my opinion it is more impolite to misunderstand and make false assumption or twisting words in a e-mail than actually uncovering the truth.

But here, we are 200% certain Saijee is twisting the e-mail responses he received. He is every time shutting himself and back paddling when the e-mail comes up. It is just suspicious as hell and I am not the only one.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 08:57:06 AM by Helepolis »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #971 on: January 24, 2015, 09:07:34 AM »
Let me ask you this: Why don't you trust me? What's so hard to believe that TSA would accuse FSS of copyright infringement? Why would I lie about something like that?

Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #972 on: January 24, 2015, 09:17:13 AM »
It's Hele's last response, you're getting the meanings mixed up. Not to mention you still haven't came to terms you effectively git nothing but an automated email.

Ruw's close enough to zun's legal advisor and most likely sends legal notices for him, and he's as confused as anyone else.

The fact is between this and the poor legal advice you've been getting, I think it's clear you don't have a clear understanding of what's going on.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #973 on: January 24, 2015, 09:22:17 AM »
Let me ask you this: Why don't you trust me? What's so hard to believe that TSA would accuse FSS of copyright infringement? Why would I lie about something like that?

Because I believe TSA didn't accuse your game of copyright infringement, and I have said the reasons for that before. That's my judgement.
Let me ask you back.
Why don't you trust me?

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #974 on: January 24, 2015, 09:22:57 AM »
Because you're building on false assumption and arguing about irrelevant things. We've translated tweets for you, laid out scenarios, made big informative posts but if you after 32 pages still don't realise that you're only building on false assumptions then that is your problem to be honest.

You've decided to ditch the Touhou theme because you claim TSA forbid you. False. Wrong. Bad. You don't trust us.

Our core questions never got answered proper. The IGG page shutdown was expected and nothing surprising for us. It was eventually going to happen anyway.

But this isn't a finger pointing thread. We're way passed the actual purpose of this thread. I've PM'd you the skype offer to explain it to you over voice if you're having trouble understanding our community or the problems going around here. I am not going to force you into anything, but if you want to resolve an incident, you have to act mature on it. And not argue in circles.

Edit: Wow monhan, are you reading my mind or something? Similar thoughts.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:24:42 AM by Helepolis »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #975 on: January 24, 2015, 09:24:02 AM »
@ Firestorm29: Does this really sound like Helepolis thinks I'm simply misunderstanding something?
Quote
But here, we are 200% certain Saijee is twisting the e-mail responses he received. He is every time shutting himself and back paddling when the e-mail comes up. It is just suspicious as hell and I am not the only one.
Sounds to me like he believes I'm lying.

Edit- Mohon, trust? That's not particularly my issue right now.

You guys just won't get over the fact that TSSB is no longer a priority 1 thing for this project, but rather NDS is the main thing and, TSSB is simply an auxiliary option. It no longer needs to be Touhou for me.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:27:49 AM by Saijee »

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #976 on: January 24, 2015, 09:26:17 AM »
Well your own words back at you:

The thing is I think that Monhon is incorrect. I am still firmly of the belief that FSS is essentially been banned from Touhou by TSA. And that's how I'm looking at it so far.
Assumptions, assumptions and assumptions. And worst of all, they are all false.

Edit:
Nothing that anyone says is going to be able to change that belief unless ZUN makes a tweet pardoning FSS, or TSA gives us an email that we are allowed to publish that states we can do it.
See, you don't trust us. You still, until this moment, treat us like: "You're not ZUN, I don't listen to you." You don't even listen to Ruw-san, who seems a very close friend of ZUN and well informed about this all.

There is nothing to be pardoned. Because you're wrong to assume you're banned.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:36:49 AM by Helepolis »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #977 on: January 24, 2015, 09:29:47 AM »
Sounds to me like he believes I'm lying.

Hm? Actually, I don't.
Like Hele said, assumptions, yes. But not lying.

And to respond to your edit:
And? We're still going to question you either way, because you will still be dealing with the same matter.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:32:08 AM by monhan »

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #978 on: January 24, 2015, 09:30:53 AM »
The key word when I read it was "twisting."

Assumptions are not formed through twisting. Lies are.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #979 on: January 24, 2015, 09:32:08 AM »
Please...

This topic is turning into a trial against Saijee. I thought we reached a conclusion, even the admin said so.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #980 on: January 24, 2015, 09:33:02 AM »
The key word when I read it was "twisting."

Assumptions are not formed through twisting. Lies are.
Could you kindly shed your judgement on my answer? You asked a question, I answered it. What is your judgement of my post.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #981 on: January 24, 2015, 09:34:09 AM »
Which post, you post a lot.


Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #983 on: January 24, 2015, 09:37:28 AM »
The key word when I read it was "twisting."

Assumptions are not formed through twisting. Lies are.
So, what do you call taking words out of context or using the wrong meaning?

Either way, your viewpoint is wrong, hence misunderstandings.

Also, if you've really given up on the Touhou part if the game, just say so. No excuses, no legal maneuvers, no could/should/would of. Anything else gives the impression you still want Touhou smash to happen.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #984 on: January 24, 2015, 09:39:09 AM »
@ Firestorm29, I call it being mistaken.

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #985 on: January 24, 2015, 09:39:52 AM »
The key word when I read it was "twisting."

Assumptions are not formed through twisting. Lies are.
And "lies" are formed when someone purposely twist the truth, when they know what the truth is.
In your case, you definitely do not know it. So yours are "assumptions".

JxMarik.
Relax, we might as well do this while we wait. No problem, right?

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #986 on: January 24, 2015, 09:41:57 AM »
Could we please stop adding the noise about my posts? What I said is my opinion and mindset. I am pretty sure I can defend those posts myself. I want to hear the judgement of Saijee on my 2 posts I answered in his question: "Why don't you trust me". Because that is why I had said those words.


Firestorm29

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #987 on: January 24, 2015, 09:42:27 AM »
@ Firestorm29, I call it being mistaken.
And you're ok with pulling the plug on your dream blindly?

Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #988 on: January 24, 2015, 09:46:04 AM »
If you would have asked Saijee from 10 days ago, I would have said no. But I've been through so much since then, that now: I can say I am fine with doing that.

Like I keep saying: Touhou would only be an auxiliary thing for NSDS now, it's no longer and never will be a primary directive.

Helepolis

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Re: Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)
« Reply #989 on: January 24, 2015, 09:48:57 AM »
I feel iffy to press the point but I am going to do it anyway: I'll even repost it for you once more, cutting out the noise:

Your question on "Why don't you trust me"

Because you're building on false assumption and arguing about irrelevant things. We've translated tweets for you, laid out scenarios, made big informative posts but if you after 32 pages still don't realise that you're only building on false assumptions then that is your problem to be honest.

You've decided to ditch the Touhou theme because you claim TSA forbid you. False. Wrong. Bad. You don't trust us.

Well your own words back at you:

The thing is I think that Monhon is incorrect. I am still firmly of the belief that FSS is essentially been banned from Touhou by TSA. And that's how I'm looking at it so far.
Assumptions, assumptions and assumptions. And worst of all, they are all false.

Edit:
Nothing that anyone says is going to be able to change that belief unless ZUN makes a tweet pardoning FSS, or TSA gives us an email that we are allowed to publish that states we can do it.
See, you don't trust us. You still, until this moment, treat us like: "You're not ZUN, I don't listen to you." You don't even listen to Ruw-san, who seems a very close friend of ZUN and well informed about this all.

There is nothing to be pardoned. Because you're wrong to assume you're banned.


Your judgement now please?