Touhou Smash crowdfunding and ZUN's fancreation rules (discussion thread)

[Colticide]

I don't think you realize how much work that would be. The bulk content of fighting game development is around individual characters, rather than primary game mechanics. Animation work in particular is very heavy in comparison to everything else. I agree having completely different characters would be best, but that would be a stupendously difficult thing to do.

Sorry I had talk about this way way back when it was one thread, I do understand how difficult it is, I had mentioned the kickstarter for the new character for skullgirls and how they explained in detail how much work goes into it, trust me I don't think it's an easy task. Unless your talking about my silly character example then ignore that, I wasn't being serious of making that into an actual character, just for example purposes.

[Saijee]

A wii U game called "Doujin Spirit" with a story about doujin spirit.
Ironic? Sure. Weird? Sure. But I don't see anything wrong with that.
I know that that doujin spirit really seems to rival fight-club levels of inclusiveness, but to me that only seems to be a bigger part of the problem.

--I don't know if you guys get it--

The only practical way to make both games is if they are identical apart from iconography and visual/sound design. There is no other way to do it.

And I don't really get why people keep on calling it "skirting the rules" because that seems to suggest that things will be done sneakily, and we should all know by know, that when I do anything, I do it loud and clear.

[Reu]

A wii U game called "Doujin Spirit" with a story about doujin spirit.
Ironic? Sure. Weird? Sure. But I don't see anything wrong with that.
I know that that doujin spirit really seems to rival fight-club levels of inclusiveness, but to me that only seems to be a bigger part of the problem.

--I don't know if you guys get it--

The only practical way to make both games is if they are identical apart from iconography and visual/sound design. There is no other way to do it.

And I don't really get why people keep on calling it "skirting the rules" because that seems to suggest that things will be done sneakily, and we should all know by know, that when I do anything, I do it loud and clear.

But as I said before.
it seems pointless to release the same game if the only difference is some visual effects and icon and the fact that one is for free while using characters from Touhou and the other is OC only and sold.

[Saijee]

We already established the point of it is to get both a WiiU/Steam release and a seperate Doujin release.  And again, it's not like I'm hiding my intentions and being sneaky about it. I could have done that anyway if I wanted to. But I don't play that game.

[Reu]

Your intention isn't really what I'm talking about.

I do remember the reasoning for it being on steam being that it's easier to share with friends
I find that to be senseless as a free download on YOUR website would be far easier than downloading steam to then buy and download said game.
Why would anyone buy it on steam if they have access to the same game for free?

The only appeal I can see for it being on Wii-U is the fact that it may or may not be easier to move and play depending on the person.
Otherwise I don't see the reasoning why a person interested in smash won't just play the free game and/or actual smash brothers.



Right now it just seems to be planned to be done just to be done.
Because I don't see a reason for this to be done in that manner if the games aren't independent from each other.

[Omegahugger]

We already established the point of it is to get both a WiiU/Steam release and a seperate Doujin release.

It would be impossible for a commercial game to somehow branch out as a doujin game. If you really intended the project to go doujin, it would be changed to free to play... but that's still isn't really doujin per se, it's just a now-free indie work. Expanding on that, trying to paste someone else's doujin IP onto your work after the fact, even if you make your original work free, would be IP theft at worst and just look like a pathetic attempt to grab attention at best. You'd better have some sort of solid deal with the IP owner to pull off something like that.

I asked a question to that effect earlier. It has to be one or the other...... Unless you're going to make two separate games, you can't release a commercial indie game, change a few models/textures around, and then re-release that same game as a "doujin" game..... It doesn't work that way.

[Saijee]

I asked a question to that effect earlier. It has to be one or the other...... Unless you're going to make two separate games, you can't release a commercial indie game, change a few models/textures around, and then re-release that same game as a "doujin" game..... It doesn't work that way.

That's not exactly the case, they'd be co-developed and both be equally addressed on the FSS YT and FB pages.  I really don't see why "it doesn't work that way."

[Reu]

Saijee tell me a reason why this needs a non Touhou version to go on steam or even be on steam in the first place.

[ShinesBright]

Hmmm tell me if I'm wrong but isn't the issue of whether or not a Touhou game can be made is up to TSA and not FSS at the moment?
I thought you guys agreed that if FSS send an E-mail and get a "confirmation" from TSA that it is indeed fine, then FSS can make a Touhou game.

[Saijee]

Saijee tell me a reason why this needs a non Touhou version to go on steam or even be on steam in the first place.

Wii U version will allow the game to be played in a pragmatic way during actual Smash Scene tourny events without the need of extra equipment. I know that Touhou has been a big part of the appeal for a lot of people here. But there are also quite a lot of fans of the game for it's competitive smash design.

Steam: As I've said before, many people, even including people who aren't saucers, have expressed that they either want this on steam or would be more interested if it will be on steam.

It's that simple.

----
If there needs to be more reason, I could make it to where the Steam/Wii U version also includes some additional characters that are simply apart from touhou.

[Reu]

Wii U version will allow the game to be played in a pragmatic way during actual Smash Scene tourny events without the need of extra equipment. I know that Touhou has been a big part of the appeal for a lot of people here. But there are also quite a lot of fans of the game for it's competitive smash design.

Steam: As I've said before, many people, even including people who aren't saucers, have expressed that they either want this on steam or would be more interested if it will be on steam.

It's that simple.

----
If there needs to be more reason, I could make it to where the Steam/Wii U version also includes some additional characters that are simply apart from touhou.

You don't see what's wrong with that?
There's no point in having the game on steam if it's for free on PC in it's Touhou form. People who are only interested because it's on Steam is just plain silly when they can get it in a simple location for FREE
You're simply doing extra work at that point.

YES you NEED characters who are apart from Touhou or at least only inspired ones featured ingame for the other versions.
It is okay to have inspired characters similar to how sonic the fighters had Honey the Cat where she wasn't a carbon copy of the actual Honey and was rather a cute reference.
But re-skins is effectively the same as putting a H-game with censors on steam when you're selling it/providing it without censors elsewhere, it's really not worth it.

As for tournys as far as I can tell you had that Touhoucon thing done without much issues and it wasn't even close to how it is now, though if a game is destined for competitiveness it'd be done regardless of platform

[Saijee]

I don't think you understand the smash scene.

[Reu]

I don't think you understand the smash scene.

Do you? No offense but they won't come over here other than to play a bit for fun when they already have the established PM, melee and Smash4
Sakurai has NEVER tried to cater to that side of the game.
Even now he's trying to make the game MORE casual and people are still going for it.
Sakurai is making the game to be fun not to be competitive. Meanwhile you're focusing too much on the competitive side even to the point of scrapping the deal on items and now trying to push a Wii-U version because you think that will improve it. You do NOT make a game have a healthy competitive scene only the community does.
Do you think PC games don't have scenes themselves?

I'm quite interested in seeing what you think I don't know about the competitive scene of gaming.

[Saijee]

Do you? No offense but they won't come over here other than to play a bit for fun when they already have the established PM, melee and Smash4
Sakurai has NEVER tried to cater to that side of the game.
Even now he's trying to make the game MORE casual and people are still going for it.
Sakurai is making the game to be fun not to be competitive. Meanwhile you're focusing too much on the competitive side even to the point of scrapping the deal on items and now trying to push a Wii-U version because you think that will improve it. You do NOT make a game have a healthy competitive scene only the community does.
Do you think PC games don't have scenes themselves?

I'm quite interested in seeing what you think I don't know about the competitive scene of gaming.

Generally speaking: Competitive smash fans don't want to play a smasher on a computer. And having the game be exclusively on computer would definitely make it to where the possibility that the smash scene would want to incorporate it into the set up of smash tournaments next to 0. It's not practical to have everyone need to lug around extra equipment.

[Savory]

Sakurai has NEVER tried to cater to that side of the game.
Even now he's trying to make the game MORE casual and people are still going for it.
Sakurai is making the game to be fun not to be competitive. Meanwhile you're focusing too much on the competitive side even to the point of scrapping the deal on items and now trying to push a Wii-U version because you think that will improve it. You do NOT make a game have a healthy competitive scene only the community does.

All true.

[Firestorm29]

Generally speaking: Competitive smash fans don't want to play a smasher on a computer. And having the game be exclusively on computer would definitely make it to where the possibility that the smash scene would want to incorporate it into the set up of smash tournaments next to 0. It's not practical to have everyone need to lug around extra equipment.

A windows tablet or small netbook isn't that burdensome.

[Reu]

Generally speaking: Competitive smash fans don't want to play a smasher on a computer. And having the game be exclusively on computer would definitely make it to where the possibility that the smash scene would want to incorporate it into the set up of smash tournaments next to 0. It's not practical to have everyone need to lug around extra equipment.

For one thing you can't speak for competitive smash fans as I have friends who are into local tournys and actually liked the way the game was going even without the mention of any console.

For another this game isn't extensive enough to be purely desktop.

and the last point
How can they have a opinion on if they want to play a smasher on the computer when the closest they can get to it is emulating? But do you know why they don't use them over modded Wii consoles?
BECAUSE it's EMULATED
Emulators aren't reliable
but your game ISN'T emulated at all. It's a game made ON the PC for the PC as of right now.
Even the PM community acknowledges this. They would bring their gaming laptops but the Emulator has issues the Wii doesn't.

[pineyappled]

I feel like ripping off Touhou just enough to be both "lol it's original!!!" and actually touhou would be worse than going completely in either direction

you'd still be making money off touhou, with different names and a different color palette except this time you're not even giving credit

[Saijee]

I feel like ripping off Touhou just enough to be both "lol it's original!!!" and actually touhou would be worse than going completely in either direction

you'd still be making money off touhou, with different names and a different color palette except this time you're not even giving credit

Again, your making it sound like I'm sneaking at night when I'd be making every effort possible to make it clearly obvious what's getting done though FB, YT and possibly news articles. It's not going to be a secret. It's not "lol it's original" It's : hey this is a mod of a Touhou fan game.

[pineyappled]

The point still stands. You're copying Touhou characters and tweaking them so you can slip past the guidelines.

[Saijee]

The point falls.

If the whole world knows that FSS made both games and that the reason why one of them is different is because that was the only way it could be. I'm really not trying to fool anybody.

[pineyappled]

so you're deliberately ignoring that ZUN does not want a Touhou fangame on the Wii U then? cool

[Saijee]

Remember this is all under these assumptions:

1) When we were notified that TSA accused FSS of copyright infringment, they didn't really mean it.
2) TSA is informed and fine with the idea of the 2 versions, one touhou and one non-touhou.

If even one of those turns out to be false, the Touhou version won't happen, because as our priorities have shifted, that has become more auxiliary.

[Firestorm29]

If I may, for wii u, why not do something like...

Ijiyatsu Snashers.

Might have to check out a few freeze dried discussions, but it might be a direction to consider.

[nintendofreak768]

Saijee, why are you trying to cater to smash fans? They are already happy with what they got; Smash. The only people you are catering to are the people within the smash community who just so happen to know/like Touhou and general Touhou fans?

It's like giving someone a brand new tv that is the same brand and make of the one they already have. Why get a new one when the one they have works just fine?

[Reu]

Remember this is all under these assumptions:

1) When we were notified that TSA accused FSS of copyright infringment, they didn't really mean it.
2) TSA is informed and fine with the idea of the 2 versions, one touhou and one non-touhou.

If even one of those turns out to be false, the Touhou version won't happen, because as our priorities have shifted, that has become more auxiliary.

So much for the "crushed dream"
Right? You mean to tell me that if TSA tells you that you can't simply reskin the other game you won't make TSSB at all?

[Saijee]

@ nintendofreak768 Actually: originally I was hoping to make a game FOR competitive smashers that might introduce them to Touhou. Not the other way around.
@ Reu, it was a dream for a long time. But, I've moved on already. I'm already willing to accept that this may never be able to be a Touhou.

[monhan]

Remember this is all under these assumptions:

1) When we were notified that TSA accused FSS of copyright infringment, they didn't really mean it.
2) TSA is informed and fine with the idea of the 2 versions, one touhou and one non-touhou.

If even one of those turns out to be false, the Touhou version won't happen, because as our priorities have shifted, that has become more auxiliary.

Corrections:
1) TSA never meant anything against your game, just IGG.
2) TSA is not fine with the non-touhou game.

Hmmm tell me if I'm wrong but isn't the issue of whether or not a Touhou game can be made is up to TSA and not FSS at the moment?
I thought you guys agreed that if FSS send an E-mail and get a "confirmation" from TSA that it is indeed fine, then FSS can make a Touhou game.

Whether or not Touhou Smash game can be made at the moment is not up to TSA, but to FSS.

Carry on.

[Reu]

@ nintendofreak768 Actually: originally I was hoping to make a game FOR competitive smashers that might introduce them to Touhou. Not the other way around.
@ Reu, it was a dream for a long time. But, I've moved on already. I'm already willing to accept that this may never be able to be a Touhou.

It can be a Touhou.
If you seriously sit down and do the SAME exact thing you did before you even finished Reimu. Do progress and work in your free time.
Like we've been telling you since this incident started.
Go back and look at the other thread and see the difference between now and then.

I won't do a lot of talk about the competitive thing since my points still stand.

Though I will say one thing
if you want smash fans to enjoy it as a whole you're going to have to cater to more than just one side.

[Saijee]

The thing is I think that Monhon is incorrect. I am still firmly of the belief that FSS is essentially been banned from Touhou by TSA. And that's how I'm looking at it so far. Nothing that anyone says is going to be able to change that belief unless ZUN makes a tweet pardoning FSS, or TSA gives us an email that we are allowed to publish that states we can do it.