Magical Madness Mafia 2, The Horrible Finish (Mod and Scum lose)

[ActionDan]

##Unvote
##Vote Dormio

sheeping

[Dr Rawr]

k

[SirChaotick]

I shall be taking my leave now. If anyone wants to pounce me, the next eight hours are the time.

[Bardiche]

Raikaria's actions are null at worst considering how his/her play was as Reimu in the recent anonymafia,

This implies I've read the recent anonymafia and will use one game to excuse scummy behaviour. I don't care about who makes the argument, just that the argument is made and it is scummy. If you feel that Raikaria is a "try-hard newbie" you are entirely free to explain how it's a Town argument to state that since you're doing things scum would never do you can't be scum. And by free to I mean I want you to.

Bard's logic for voting both myself and part of the logic for Raikaria is that we're "making useless noise", yet that discussion was the springboard out of RVS.

Talk about game theory but no initiative-taking is scummy, scum like the game staying as it is.

Don't forget the second part. Just talking about how Serela should act x way or whatever you were talking about is just going around in circles without taking any initiative to push us forward. I'll vote that over jokevotes.

Springboard is because I voted you for it so criticising my vote while at the same time praising how it took us out of RVS seems contrary.

Indeed, it seems to me as if he has succeeded, since Bardiche pretty much jumped the gun and voted him on the ground of not taking initiative...

I voted Nameless for that and Raikaria pushed ahead with "I'm not scum cuz I do stuff scum wouldn't do!", which is just the sort of WIFOM reasoning scum would employ to guide their actions. I didn't vote them for not voting, I voted them for placing a jokevote and then discussing circles about Serela's play.

I frown at Conq voteparking on Dormio. Why do you do this, and why do you call people Town in your very first serious post of the Day when we've hardly had much to work with? Pretty premature to me.

Vote stays on Rai because I've seen no compelling reason to move it off him. Newbies are just as likely to roll scum, and arguments like:

I have been town every game I've played, and always stood out D1, and had an early bandwagon put upon me.

just further rustle my jimmies. "I am always Town" + "I have always been scummy D1" + "I have always had a bandwagon on me" = "I'm Town this game as well because everything else is happening as well"? This argument is terrible and I'm not sure why people excuse it.

[Shadoweh]

I can't believe you used 'rustle my jimmies' in a sentence naturally. 

I kind of agree that Raikaria is more passive then both his previous appearances actually. Maybe it's the effect of actually knowing who it is as opposed to mysterious person B, but even that beauticious Yuka avatar doesn't quell the suspiciousness that upends my gut at the defensive tone of his early posts.

IHNN: Come and do my laundry and I will post all day for your amusement. Also stop voting Bard, it's probably stupid and wrong.

Raitaki's logic is pretty sound, either throw in some blood for the blood god or keep lynches on check. I approve of his towny nature.

Zak: I don't -think- I'm third party this time. I'm also pretty sure I'm not a zombie recruitable ghoul. Zakky-chan if you were my Master would you hold me in your furry arms once more~?

[Conqueror]

This implies I've read the recent anonymafia and will use one game to excuse scummy behaviour. I don't care about who makes the argument, just that the argument is made and it is scummy. If you feel that Raikaria is a "try-hard newbie" you are entirely free to explain how it's a Town argument to state that since you're doing things scum would never do you can't be scum. And by free to I mean I want you to.

I voted Nameless for that and Raikaria pushed ahead with "I'm not scum cuz I do stuff scum wouldn't do!", which is just the sort of WIFOM reasoning scum would employ to guide their actions. I didn't vote them for not voting, I voted them for placing a jokevote and then discussing circles about Serela's play.

Vote stays on Rai because I've seen no compelling reason to move it off him. Newbies are just as likely to roll scum, and arguments like: just further rustle my jimmies. "I am always Town" + "I have always been scummy D1" + "I have always had a bandwagon on me" = "I'm Town this game as well because everything else is happening as well"? This argument is terrible and I'm not sure why people excuse it.

How is it pro-town to explain that you're town because you're doing things you wouldn't do as scum? Well, it's pro-town because if you're town, then your job is to Not Get Mislynched, and anything is fair game for your defense. Sure, scum can use the same defense, but it's all about the context, and it's silly to paint it as something only scum would do. I can see his making this argument from the PoV of an overdefensive townie who gets early wagoned every game and is aware of it. Hate on self-meta, call it a terrible argument or whatever, but I don't think he's scum for it; I'm more interested in seeing how his content evolves from here.

I frown at Conq voteparking on Dormio. Why do you do this, and why do you call people Town in your very first serious post of the Day when we've hardly had much to work with? Pretty premature to me.

:toot: I call things as I see them. I see town motivations in the posts of the people I called out, and therefore are less likely to inclined to want to lynch them. Also, I voted Dormio because SirChaotick's post was mildly satisfactory, and I don't particularly think you're scum.

##Unvote
##Vote: Shadoweh
First real suspect.

[Conqueror]

I kind of agree that Raikaria is more passive then both his previous appearances actually. Maybe it's the effect of actually knowing who it is as opposed to mysterious person B, but even that beauticious Yuka avatar doesn't quell the suspiciousness that upends my gut at the defensive tone of his early posts.

Would like you to explain how he's more passive than both his previous appearances.

[PX]

The Third Votecount - Full Steam Ahead!

Bardiche (3) - IHNN, Serela, SirChaotick
Shadoweh (2) - Dormio, Conq
Dormio (2) - Hero999, ActionDan
Serela (1) - Raikaria
Raikaria (1) - Bardiche
Hero999 (2) - Zakeri, DrRawr

Not Voting - Raitaki, Shadoweh

13 alive takes 7 to lynch

|||||||||||||||||||||||| 48%

[Raikaria]

Would like you to explain how he's more passive than both his previous appearances.

*Yawn* Awake again, and I have to go to Uni in about an hour, so this post may not cover everything I want it to cover. I'll post again when I'm back in about 2 and a half hours. However, I wish to address some points.

Would like you to explain how he's more passive than both his previous appearances.

I know in TD Mafia, I was actually pushing on Yuyuko, although it was more to counterwagon because I was being wagoned.

I didn't start pushing anyone really by this point in Kamen Rider. Still, 1/2 games, yes, maybe I am a little more passive this game. Which is ironic, seeing as I wanted to be less passive.

Conqueror, can I also ask why you call Shadoweh the first real suspect, yet do not address anything anyone has said about him, or anything he has said, in your post?

@ Bard votes: I still think Bard is town. Mainly for the same reasons as before, besides, he seems to be actively scumhunting... albeit with a little tunnel vision. I mean, he's looking for the flaws in my posts and pressing them. At worst that's helping a newbie to prevent making these same mistakes in the future, at best, it scumhunting.

Right now; my reads are:

Town: Bardiche [Scumhunting]
Null: Everyone not listed. Some less null than others, but still in the null range
Scum: Hero999 [Lurkscum], ActionDan [Lurkscum]
Shadoweh: Shadoweh

The way I see Day 1, there is far from enough information in most cases to lynch someone who's actually doing something, unless they really, really look scummy. Day 1 is the day to cut off some of the useless weight that isn't contributing, or at the very least make it come to life. If enough people take the opinion of lurkscum then we cut it off. The best way to deal with lurkers is democratically, after all.

For this reason:

##Vote: Hero999


Will look deeper into things after my lecture.

[WHMZakeri]

@Shadoweh: I'm sticking with Third Party, because it's obvious you don't have an agenda that involves lynching people.
Also, Sorry, but I don't need a Shikigami. You're only one letter off, though. Maybe next time~.

@Rai: Do you have any other reason for going after Hero999 than Lurkscum? While answering this question, so you have anything you think is suspicious abut ActionDan?

[WHMZakeri]

Edit: Do you have anything besides lurkscum you think is suspicious about ActionDan?

[Raikaria]

Edit: Do you have anything besides lurkscum you think is suspicious about ActionDan?

##Unvote
##Vote Dormio

sheeping

I have no other reason to go after Hero999 than lurkscum. As I said before, I was in a hurry. As for ActionDan:

##Unvote
##Vote Dormio

sheeping

I take by sheeping he means he is sheeping, because Dormio was the only one voting Shadoweh, so he can't be accusing Dormio of sheeping.

What I find particularly interesting is he's saying he's sheeping, yet the one he's sheeping... is a lurker. The only other one voting Dormio is Hero.

Needless to say, this behavior and vote is strange, and the fact he's been largely lurking doesn't help.

Thinking about it, I put my vote on Hero in a rush to get to my lecture, but ActionDan actually has a flaky reason for his vote which also doesn't even make sense and has been lurking, albeit slightly less than Hero999:

##Unvote
##Vote: ActionDan

[Raikaria]

Please ignore the derpy quotes that seem to be haunting my posts. Dunno why the quotes like to duplicate.

[WHMZakeri]

Thank you.
That helped to  solidify my town read on you.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Every word stated in red is almost certainly true!
Every word stated in red is almost certainly false!

##Unvote
##Vote Raitaki

It feels like he's basically cheerleading Bardiche at this point.

[Hero999]

I have no Idea whatfux is going on at the moment. Everything feels so jumbleddd ahhhhh.
@Zakeri: That was merely telling Serela to stop cluttering the thread. Then more people come and clutter thread, although I can see how you can read that as you did.

And like, why the hell did Dan essentially claim his role already?
And like, why the hell did IHNN essentially claim his role already?
And like, why the hell did-- fuck this.
This game hurts my head :\
All things considered IHNN's role seems scummier than townie if I'm reading it right.
ActionDan's ...role? seems townier than scummier if I'm reading it right. But his ACTIONS... do not seems to reflect it, and what Sheep already?
##Unvote
##Vote ActionDan
Go Die :<
Why are you two so cooperative anyways? Its like "I want to do this-Person A", "Oh oh I want to do that too -Person B"

This also feels like the first time Bard is seriously enforcing he sometimes says with his actions.
@Bard: Attacking with logical reasoning about "noobie" defenses - Looks right.
@Raikaria: Using Meta, negative points~
If it ever came down to a Bard v Raikaria Bard is the one getting support.
go on poke holes in this post

@Shadoweh If you are going to call someone out on something of that level, could you have atleast given an example of how so? That is a huge accustion on Raikaria. It doesn't hold much on its own. Derp Conq already called it out.
@Raikaria: That question wasn't directed to you so why did you feel the urge to answer it?

[Raikaria]

@Raikaria: That question wasn't directed to you so why did you feel the urge to answer it?

Who's the best at saying if one's playing passive or not? The one doing the playing.

Besides, looking back on my previous play and comparing it to now is always a good way to improve.

[SirChaotick]

I have been called mildly satisfactory! 

Ahem. Sir Bardiche, I indeed misremembered your vote. It makes little difference though, seeing as you would have voted Raikaria for exactly the same reason if IHNN weren't there.
Still, I guess the minor logical fallacies I'm seeing could be put down to my newbness. And by now I can see there are more preferable targets indeed. At least you're trying to do things.

Raikaria... I'm not sure. I'm slightly confused by both his and Bard's arguments, but to me they're pretty much on even ground.

The two lurkers are indeed suspicious. I'm more inclined to vote Dan for his shaky vote on me (it being on me is irrelevant). Hero has posted very little, and it's not really late enough to vote him for inactivity.
Thus:
##Vote ActionDan

[SirChaotick]

Oh wait, he changed his vote?...

Well, the reasoning still stands, I guess.

[WHMZakeri]

Rolemadness is always going to trip people up. I think the way it's gone so far isn't as aggravating as your making it out to be.
If we assume Nameless is telling the truth, I can't say with confidence the way he roleclaimed is wrong, even if it's Day one.
If we assume Action Dan is telling the truth as well, then he has every right to be concerned about Nameless's Roleclaim.
More importantly, if we assume Action Dan is lying, or mafia, I don't think he'd have considered the issue of a Hated/Miller claim the way he did at the time.

Even if you think it's wrong for them both to have roleclaimed in retrospect, you can't really say that it was wrong for them to do so at the time it happened.

[I have no name]

And like, why the hell did Dan essentially claim his role already?
And like, why the hell did IHNN essentially claim his role already?

Negative Utility roles should be claimed early so it's not a nasty surprise later (i.e., someone votes me to L-1 then end of day, or we lose a day on ActionDan's lynch).

IHNN: Come and do my laundry and I will post all day for your amusement. Also stop voting Bard, it's probably stupid and wrong.

k
##Unvote
##Vote Shadowmeh
There's very little in that post of yours that is actually useful.  Would also be fine with lynching ActionDan or still Bard if it came down to it.  I see no problem with Hero's latest post.

I would elaborate further but instead I have class soon so I'll be back whenever school isn't in progress.

[Dr Rawr]

And like, why the hell did Dan essentially claim his role already?
And like, why the hell did IHNN essentially claim his role already?
And like, why the hell did-- fuck this.
This game hurts my head :\
All things considered IHNN's role seems scummier than townie if I'm reading it right.
ActionDan's ...role? seems townier than scummier if I'm reading it right. But his ACTIONS... do not seems to reflect it, and what Sheep already?
##Unvote
##Vote ActionDan
Go Die :<
Why are you two so cooperative anyways? Its like "I want to do this-Person A", "Oh oh I want to do that too -Person B"

Could you explain why IHNN claim is scummier then dans? Also could you point out where theyre cooperative?

[Serela]

Uuuugh I guess in retrospect if Bard hasn't actually read Ten Desires mafia then he wouldn't know Raikaria acts the same damn way as town, so whatever. :C

If you feel that Raikaria is a "try-hard newbie" you are entirely free to explain how it's a Town argument to state that since you're doing things scum would never do you can't be scum. And by free to I mean I want you to.

This is still a horrible trap question though.

It's not a town argument, but it's not a scum argument either. It's a silly argument. It might be a little more likely to come from sillyscum I guess? But still completely realistic from sillytown.

which is just the sort of WIFOM reasoning scum would employ to guide their actions

lolwat

If any scum seriously did this, they don't know what the hell they're doing

This all being said, I have no idea what my actual read on Raikaria is, but all this stuff Bard is saying just looks absurd to me.

This argument is terrible and I'm not sure why people excuse it.

Probably shouldn't be excused (it's definitely terrible) but more in the "Okay so that sort of stuff is just kind of ridiculous so don't do it again" rather then scummy terrible.

Raikaria using flawed logic and going too far into something then is possible isn't anything new, he did it a whole ton last game, I know you didn't read it but skimming over some of the stuff about Reimu might at least make you stop thinking "Rakaria is probably scum and must die", although from how you're talking you'd likely just go "This play is horrible and must die even if the player would totally do this as town, it needs to stop", which isn't explicitly a bad thing although it's kind of a scummy reason to vote for someone

but anyway I should probably move onto other things this is getting kind of ranty, also Conq discussed the other side of the argument (aka why a townie would realistically do it)

Dunno what to make of Zakeri, ActionDan's play is so far unimpressive but the claim stuff makes me uninterested in him as a D1 lynch, Shadoweh/Dormoe are kind of horribleuseless so far and I would vote++, Conq is kind of skirting the line IMO but I like him more then those two and I can totally see myself thinking he's fine after more posting in the future. Raitaki is kind of eh but he also hasn't posted since like, RVS, so that's not surprising. Everyone else I am currently Not Interested In Lynching Today, like at all.

[PX]

The Fourth Votecount - Granberry Edition

Bardiche (1) - Serela
Shadoweh (2) - Conq, IHNN
Dormio (1) - ActionDan
Raikaria (1) - Bardiche
Hero999 (2) - Zakeri, DrRawr
ActionDan (3) - Raikaria, Hero999, SirChaotick
Raitaki (1) - Dormio

Not Voting - Raitaki, Shadoweh

13 alive takes 7 to lynch

|||||||||||||||||||36%

[Hero999]

Rolemadness is always going to trip people up. I think the way it's gone so far isn't as aggravating as your making it out to be.
If we assume Nameless is telling the truth, I can't say with confidence the way he roleclaimed is wrong, even if it's Day one.
If we assume Action Dan is telling the truth as well, then he has every right to be concerned about Nameless's Roleclaim.
More importantly, if we assume Action Dan is lying, or mafia, I don't think he'd have considered the issue of a Hated/Miller claim the way he did at the time.

Even if you think it's wrong for them both to have roleclaimed in retrospect, you can't really say that it was wrong for them to do so at the time it happened.

1) I suppose so, Its just last game was less cluttered and things were more.."focused..?". The thread feels...everywhere.
2) Reasonable enough.

Could you explain why IHNN claim is scummier then dans? Also could you point out where theyre cooperative?

@DrRawr: 1) I read it again, and I take my words back on IHNN assuming he did not lie about his role.
2) The timing of them felt like a cooperation.

Ugh...reading both their roles again...moving on!

@Conq: In post #95 You basically talk all about Bardiche, yet you vote Shadoweh. I was wondering why you required a separate post for a quote and what is basically asking for reason from Shadoweh.

[Raitaki]

Mmm, it looks like once RVS is actually over C.C.'s battery lasts a lot longer than I expected.

@Zakeri: Why did Raikaria (and his response) look town to you? And excuse me if I missed it or misunderstood you, but how was ActionDan concerned about IHNN's claim? I only saw him asking for IHNN's flavor, then nod at said flavor. Also, you're having a conspicuous lack of examining people other than Shadoweh, Raikaria and ActionDan. ##FoS

Agree that Shadoweh isn't doing much this time around. Might FoS if she doesn't start spewing more meaningful posts.

Despite ActionDan's roleclaim, his activity and contributory are still pretty bad. Would lynch had he not dangle one Day's punishment of no lynching in front of me. Also, that rawr FoS, was it a joke or something, I can't see any plausible explanation for it D:

[Conqueror]

Conqueror, can I also ask why you call Shadoweh the first real suspect, yet do not address anything anyone has said about him, or anything he has said, in your post?

? No one's said anything about Shadoweh that I can remember.

Also, that question wasn't aimed at you, I was asking Shadoweh. I picked out that quote because it's a completely noncommittal stance that lets Shadoweh go either way on the slot without actually giving an opinion on it while surrounding it with fluff. Appeal to meta is fine if you can back it up; I want to see what meta Shadoweh is using because I think it's more likely she's just throwing together words without thinking about them. There's nothing else to comment about in the rest of her post because the rest of her post is mostly fluff.

@Conq: In post #95 You basically talk all about Bardiche, yet you vote Shadoweh. I was wondering why you required a separate post for a quote and what is basically asking for reason from Shadoweh.

That should answer your question. Bard is null for me right now; I don't particularly think what he's doing is scummy.

Dan, why did you decide to claim Beloved Princess when you did?

Negative Utility roles should be claimed early so it's not a nasty surprise later (i.e., someone votes me to L-1 then end of day, or we lose a day on ActionDan's lynch).

Not always true. Sometimes it's better to hold off on a claim; claiming beloved princess for instance when you're not under threat of lynch pretty much guarantees you're never getting NK'd unless you're super town.

[Serela]

claiming beloved princess for instance when you're not under threat of lynch pretty much guarantees you're never getting NK'd unless you're super town.

I was under the impression it was arguably beneficial for scum because they get another NK without town getting a lynch. Now, if there's a cop around, or something similar, it -does- give scum another chance to get caught, or clears, etc, but. Okay so it's sort of hard to gauge whether scum would want to kill it or not. But.

I forgot where I was going with this.

[Conqueror]

@Serela

I'm a beloved princess.  not in name but in ability.  If I get lynched people will be so happy that they'll dance and celebrate the next day and night will start immediately.

Looks like he's claiming a beloved princess that only activates upon lynch.

[Hero999]

@Conq: I think you misunderstood the main focus of my question against you. I apologize if it wasn't clear, what It means to say is, "Why is Shadoweh your primary suspect when the way you mentioned her was more of an afterthought?"