Koakuma's Writer's Parlour ~ Have some tea and discuss fiction and writing here!

[Ryuu]

Basically what Rou said ahead of me.

I honestly don't think that being a writer means you have to completely sell yourself out to what's popular and all that mess. Writing should be done to have fun and to have creative freedom, not to adhere to how your audience sees you and your work. Writing for me in the touhou fanbase is my only safe haven from all the yuri and what not that I quite honestly can not stand. With my ability to write, I am able to create a place where I don't have to look at so much shit in one barrel alot of things I dislike and risk running my blood pressure up to areas that could literally lead to me tearing my computer apart piece by piece.

OCs are pretty much the same. Would you have been able to find a T-Rex loli running around in Gensokyo? Yeah, probably not. Would you like to see one? If yes, then a writer just might be willing to produce said T-Rex loli.

omg erebubbles u dont ship yuugixparsee ur an awful ritur

[trancehime]

Now, keep in mind that I consider good writing and popularity synonymous. Even the really awful ones are good in there own way, and that's why they're popular. I firmly beleive that if penguins make your story more popular, then adding penguins to your story makes you a better author, since you know that's what they want. That's because I'm an odd person with unusual views, and you should feel no obligation to take my advice.

It's definitely an odd view alright, not to mention it's a completely blatantly incorrect take on so many levels...

Of course, I won't force you to change your opinion on it, but I'm just saying.

Even as someone who desperately begs for attention in all creative pursuits, I still even have the decency to acknowledge this basic reality that popularity is not directly correlated with the quality of one's work.

[capt. h]

capt h:


you say popularity = good writing right

okay

this is the most popular fanfic ever written

it's spawned spinoffs, retellings, reposts, in depth analysis and is extremely famous across the internet


if this doesn't convince you that your stance might be incorrect, I don't think anything will

I've known about My Immortal forever.

It's popularity is the reason I don't think too much about the technical quality of the writing.

Let's get to the point - My Immortal is hilarious. It's a great read. Lots of people love reading it, including myself. It is completely successful, even though it was not a success in the way the author intended. I would love to write a fanfic as beloved as My Immortal, even if the fic is loved for all the wrong reasons. And at a technical level, it's a terrible story. However, it still manages to hit all the right notes such that it became both the best and worst fanfic of all time.

What you have to remember is that I didn't always think popularity = quality. I only grew into that opinion when I realized that each page view is +1 person that enjoyed my story. And as an author, I view each page view as an individual I entertained in some way. The technical side doesn't matter, because at the core, the terrible fanfic that gave more people a good time than any other fanfic ever, My Immortal, was the best at entertaining people. And I would rather entertain people than be a skilled author.

[Esifex]

I opened My Immortal to search for Penguins. I used Ctrl+F and couldn't find any Penguins. Didn't read it. :C

[capt. h]

I opened My Immortal to search for Penguins. I used Ctrl+F and couldn't find any Penguins. Didn't read it. :C

Can't argue with that logic.

You can't change the audience, nor is it your job. You can only try to entertain it. And you won't be able to entertain everyone. But you can aim high.

And I can't judge anyone for Ctrl+F. They're the audience. I have no right to complain about how they treat my work; they're the ones doing me the courtesy.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Question, Capt.

If you wrote something for yourself, with no audience to appeal to, what would you write? What could you write that would make you happy?

If you have an answer to that question, why the hell aren't you writing it?

[Suikama]

Why not just strive for both? :derp:

Hey just look at Shakesphere, he wrote well yet still appealed to the masses with plenty of comedy, romance and violence.

[Conqueror]

What you have to remember is that I didn't always think popularity = quality. I only grew into that opinion when I realized that each page view is +1 person that enjoyed my story. And as an author, I view each page view as an individual I entertained in some way. The technical side doesn't matter, because at the core, the terrible fanfic that gave more people a good time than any other fanfic ever, My Immortal, was the best at entertaining people. And I would rather entertain people than be a skilled author.

The technical side doesn't matter, because at the core, the terrible fanfic that gave more people a good time than any other fanfic ever, My Immortal, was the best at entertaining people.

Personally, I'd rather write a piece of fiction that I enjoy reading and writing for myself before selling out my personal work for viewership reasons. Sure, I want to entertain people. But I'm also entertaining myself and trying to get my messages through in my writing, and if the readers don't like that, there are plenty of other fics out there they can read.

Would you sacrifice your art for the transient tastes of others? Are you the type of person who would make a terrible summer blockbuster that rakes in a lot of money or a niche art film that touches the hearts of the few viewers who see it? Who are you trying to entertain, and why? Who are you doing it for? What's the purpose of it all?

Viewership is important, yes. But it almost sounds like you're suggesting sacrificing technical quality and personal story direction in favor of this idea of "viewership."

Why not just strive for both?

Best answer right here. Write well, pour your own heart and mind into your work, and manage to entertain people all at the same time! I feel that as long as you create your works with personal conviction and feeling (and good quality ofc), you'll always find an audience that enjoys it.

[capt. h]

Question, Capt.

If you wrote something for yourself, with no audience to appeal to, what would you write? What could you write that would make you happy?

If you have an answer to that question, why the hell aren't you writing it?

You know, that's a good question, and I had to think about that.

Well, I would probably write a first person account about despair.  The villain has the narrator and is psychologically torturing them. I would run into problems keeping myself from writing the narrator as having given in, where he starts laughing hysterically, or from overpowering the villain in some way, because I would want the narrator in a state of fear and hopelessness but I couldn't stand writing him/her fearful, hopeless, and powerless. It might even include quite a bit of inappropriateness, if you know what I mean. And then I would look back and be horrified at what I've done. There would be a mental conflict between what I consciously want to happen, the hero wins and get out of the situation or at least the story skips details; and what I subconsciously want, the hero falls into the deepest pits of despair, and that despair makes me feel alive (Yes, I've been reading White Rose). The only problem is that I couldn't stomach it. I would desperately want the hero to get out, just so that it ends. I love the strong emotions it evokes in me, and yet I have trouble handling them and watching the characters in those situations greatly bothers me.

(actually, it's utter desolation, despair, hopelessness, Sophie's choices, fear, basically any psychological torture you could imagine plus death.)

A lot of my writing decisions are devoted specifically to avoid falling into my own traps. If I didn't use Mokou, or even if I made it so that she could be contained, then I would have trouble stomaching my own work.

The opposite side of that coin might be Shoot the Moon, which I did write for myself, and actually contains many chapters I haven't posted yet because I don't think they're good enough, even though they're good enough for me. It's chaos, randomness, and frankly I wouldn't want to read the unedited version myself. That's the other side of me, the one that doesn't want anything to do with the so-dark-I-upset-myself stories, the side whose stories I wouldn't be scared to have a record of on my computer.

Personally, I'd rather write a piece of fiction that I enjoy reading and writing for myself before selling out my personal work for viewership reasons. Sure, I want to entertain people. But I'm also entertaining myself and trying to get my messages through in my writing, and if the readers don't like that, there are plenty of other fics out there they can read.

Would you sacrifice your art for the transient tastes of others? Are you the type of person who would make a terrible summer blockbuster that rakes in a lot of money or a niche art film that touches the hearts of the few viewers who see it? Who are you trying to entertain, and why? Who are you doing it for? What's the purpose of it all?

Viewership is important, yes. But it almost sounds like you're suggesting sacrificing technical quality and personal story direction in favor of this idea of "viewership."
Best answer right here. Write well, pour your own heart and mind into your work, and manage to entertain people all at the same time! I feel that as long as you create your works with personal conviction and feeling (and good quality ofc), you'll always find an audience that enjoys it.

Honestly? If I were being paid, it would be 100% for the audience. If it's a summer blockbuster, the fact that I think it's terrible doesn't change the opinions of the seven million other people who saw it. And the fact that I think the niche art film is great doesn't change the tastes of the people I'm trying to entertain. If it's for money, the job is to give people what they want to pay for. Heck, I don't even believe in art anymore. That is, I believe there are popular paintings, music, etc., classical music, liturature, etc., and that all has value. But the entire concept of a thing deriving value from something other than people is something I deeply detest.

And I have nothing against going for both viewership and making a work you can be proud of yourself for at once.

If it's for free, you can post it because you want people to appreciate your work, which is arrogance, or you can try to post something other people will enjoy, which is generous. Or you can keep it to yourself.

[Suikama]

I find it quite ironic that people bring up Twilight and My Immortal as examples of "writing written for popularity" when in both cases the authors wrote purely for themselves.


As Emouse would say, these things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Conqueror]

I find it quite ironic that people bring up Twilight and My Immortal as examples of "writing written for popularity" when in both cases the authors wrote purely for themselves.


As Emouse would say, these things aren't mutually exclusive.

I mean, there's also quality control involved (which is an entirely different beast altogether), but yes, people can write for themselves and somehow manage to be popular as well. But I think Twilight and My Immortal were being used more as examples of people writing badly (emphasis on badly) for themselves but still somehow becoming popular, though for vastly different reasons...

Edit: Unrelated to the topic, but I played your visual novel, the one with the table. I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry. (Don't get me wrong though, I liked it. )

[Alfred F. Jones]

Why not just strive for both? :derp:

The fact that we're all standing around here talking about this is a testament to this statement's value.

After all, ZUN made Touhou for himself, since he wanted to create a game that he himself would like to play. He didn't make it for anybody else. And it ended up appealing to the unwashed masses anyway.

[Suikama]

I mean, there's also quality control involved (which is an entirely different beast altogether), but yes, people can write for themselves and somehow manage to be popular as well. But I think Twilight and My Immortal were being used more as examples of people writing badly (emphasis on badly) for themselves but still somehow becoming popular, though for vastly different reasons...

Then I think the point is this. You guys can argue about whether or not you should strive for quality or quantity all you want, but keep in mind that it's a pointless endeavor. What is it that makes something 'good'? What is it that makes something 'popular'? There is no true definition. It's all subjective and situational. It's easy to look at something once it's done and say 'this is good' or 'this is popular', but that's only because you have other complete works to compare it with. When you're actually writing, who the hell knows?

If I make Flandre kill Marisa in a fight, does that make it good? Maybe it ties in with the whole theme of broken innocence that I'm trying to portray, so then is it good? Is it good writing to confine yourself to a single theme and write everything around it? It would give the story structure sure, but does that mean it's good? Are unstructued stories no good then?
A good story should be deep? What if I write about deep concepts that exist in everyone's lives? Does that automatically make it a good story? Do philosophy textbooks make good stories?
A good story should be well structured? Accurate? Make perfect sense? What if I write an extremely detailed and perfectly accurate with every single fact correct recount of a day in my life. Does that make it a good story? Do math and science textbook make good stories?

And then popularity, who can predict that anyways? Someone could, then I bet there are thousands of buisnesses out there willing to give them millions of dollars for thier answers. Sure it's easy to say "Oh romantic vampires sure are popular these days", but does that mean if I write a story about vampiric melodramas then I'll get more popularity then if I wrote about something supposedly unpopular like a story about mathematicians who use thier skills to help people? Do I have to confine myself to certain theme to make something popular? So does that mean something like a story about some toys thrown away by thier owner can't be popular?

The answer to all of the above is you dont know. No one really knows. That's why writing is an art, not a science.

Writing is about exploration. You write to learn. Learn about yourself, learn about others, learn about what exists, and learn about what doesn't. And then using what you learned you write more. Throw your prejudices out the window, kick reason to the curb, and just write. You'll never know what you'll figure out along the way.


Speaking of which I don't nearly write enough myself huh :ohdear:

Edit: Unrelated to the topic, but I played your visual novel, the one with the table. I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry. (Don't get me wrong though, I liked it. )

You can expect a lot more where that came from this summer BV

[Conqueror]

The answer to all of the above is you dont know. No one really knows. That's why writing is an art, not a science.

Writing is about exploration. You write to learn. Learn about yourself, learn about others, learn about what exists, and learn about what doesn't. And then using what you learned you write more. Throw your prejudices out the window, kick reason to the curb, and just write. You'll never know what you'll figure out along the way.

Basically what I was trying to say, but more elegantly and coherently.   

[Suikama]

Basically what I was trying to say, but more elegantly and coherently.   

It comes with experience BV BV BV

[capt. h]

Then I think the point is this. You guys can argue about whether or not you should strive for quality or quantity all you want, but keep in mind that it's a pointless endeavor. What is it that makes something 'good'? What is it that makes something 'popular'? There is no true definition. It's all subjective and situational. It's easy to look at something once it's done and say 'this is good' or 'this is popular', but that's only because you have other complete works to compare it with. When you're actually writing, who the hell knows?

If I make Flandre kill Marisa in a fight, does that make it good? Maybe it ties in with the whole theme of broken innocence that I'm trying to portray, so then is it good? Is it good writing to confine yourself to a single theme and write everything around it? It would give the story structure sure, but does that mean it's good? Are unstructued stories no good then?
A good story should be deep? What if I write about deep concepts that exist in everyone's lives? Does that automatically make it a good story? Do philosophy textbooks make good stories?
A good story should be well structured? Accurate? Make perfect sense? What if I write an extremely detailed and perfectly accurate with every single fact correct recount of a day in my life. Does that make it a good story? Do math and science textbook make good stories?

And then popularity, who can predict that anyways? Someone could, then I bet there are thousands of buisnesses out there willing to give them millions of dollars for thier answers. Sure it's easy to say "Oh romantic vampires sure are popular these days", but does that mean if I write a story about vampiric melodramas then I'll get more popularity then if I wrote about something supposedly unpopular like a story about mathematicians who use thier skills to help people? Do I have to confine myself to certain theme to make something popular? So does that mean something like a story about some toys thrown away by thier owner can't be popular?

The answer to all of the above is you dont know. No one really knows. That's why writing is an art, not a science.

Writing is about exploration. You write to learn. Learn about yourself, learn about others, learn about what exists, and learn about what doesn't. And then using what you learned you write more. Throw your prejudices out the window, kick reason to the curb, and just write. You'll never know what you'll figure out along the way.


Speaking of which I don't nearly write enough myself huh :ohdear:

You can expect a lot more where that came from this summer BV

You know, I'm not an artist. I can't write "art" at all. In fact, I think of the whole world simply running on a complex set of rules, and while you can't know all the rules, you can know enough of them to succeed. A lack of flexibility has caused me problems before, and I get science a lot better. So every once in a while the things I would get if I had an intuition escape my notice because they aren't within my ruleset yet. Writing is a new field for me, so I don't have many of the rules laid out yet.

I usually treat everything as being run on some type of ruleset. General norms of behavior, personality types, how people will act in a given situation, etc. I'd have trouble kicking reason to the curb, although my readers say otherwise. Though I probably need more experience.

I didn't know you wrote a visual novel. What's it about, what's it called, and where can I see it?

[Suikama]

You know, I'm not an artist. I can't write "art" at all. In fact, I think of the whole world simply running on a complex set of rules, and while you can't know all the rules, you can know enough of them to succeed. A lack of flexibility has caused me problems before, and I get science a lot better. So every once in a while the things I would get if I had an intuition escape my notice because they aren't within my ruleset yet. Writing is a new field for me, so I don't have many of the rules laid out yet.

I usually treat everything as being run on some type of ruleset. General norms of behavior, personality types, how people will act in a given situation, etc. I'd have trouble kicking reason to the curb, although my readers say otherwise. Though I probably need more experience.

Actually I agree for the most part. I also think that there a rule or set of rules, which could be either complex or simple, that govern this ever complex world of ours. The thing is looking from the outside, it's WAY too complex. Think about it like this. Ever seen a Mandlebrot set? The rules for making one is super easy; take a number, square it, add a constant, repeat, but the result is a graph so complex that we can't even figure out what happens if we tried zooming in infinitely. If you just looked at the graph itself and tried to logically deduce how it was made, can you image how difficult that would be? You can form a billion theories of how certain parts look similar to others and how you get specific shapes by zooming in a certain amounts but how do you get from there to that simple formula that actually makes the set?

It's the same with life. We know so many things about people and life but that's only information gathered looking from the outside. We know so much and yet we can't even figure out how living things came to be in the first place. We don't know the truth. We don't have a solid logical basis when it comes to people, like we do for math. So that's why we have to fill in the gaps ourselves. We try to deduce the basis on our own using our own experiences and ways of thinking. What we come up with may or may not be true, but what is true is that fact that we came up with it. And what is to say if that conclusion in and of itself has value or not?

Art isn't something different from science, it's just a different perspective. Art and science actually look at the same things, but from different angles, and that can make all the difference.

I didn't know you wrote a visual novel. What's it about, what's it called, and where can I see it?

Ironically enough I didn't write it. Tengukami/Amaterasu :V

You can find it in the Fanworks Listing but I'll link it here for you: http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5728.0.html

[Ryuu]

I find it quite ironic that people bring up Twilight and My Immortal as examples of "writing written for popularity" when in both cases the authors wrote purely for themselves.

actually I brought up my immortal because capt h said

Now, keep in mind that I consider good writing and popularity synonymous.

which has nothing to do whether or not my immortal was written for the author or the readers but the fact that it's a steaming pile of trash that happens to be entertaining

[チソウ タイゼン]

I wrote a story a while back

- It was for an english assignment
- It isn't touhou related
- It's very hammy
- it is 5.6k words long (31,000 ch) and takes 13 pages on a Word document

Would I be allowed to post it?

[capt. h]

@ Sukima - I started that visual novel.

It's... interesting to put it nicely. To put it not so nicely - there really needed to be a warning.

[Hanged Hourai]

Oi,

Down On The Corner - Visual Novel edition! NSFW!

Yeah.

[Suikama]

Oi,
Yeah.

This is why you read the label :derp:

[capt. h]

Didn't notice the label.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

It says "Please note that this story is NSFW" right below the download links. :V

[Iced Fairy]

<.< >.>

Alright this seems like a good place for it.

I'm going to mention one thing that appeared a lot in the New Writers contest.  And a lot in new fanfiction in general.  Unattended dialogue.

A lot of people moving into fiction writing, espcially those coming from comics, movies, tv or games, seem to write in a script format.  Dialogue is left ownerless.  The people speaking are mentioned once at the start and they talk back and forth.  This is especially common during a string of one liners or simple banter.  It's written out just like the scene in your head, with the two characters speaking to each other.

This is the exact opposite of what you should do.

Your readers will never have the same view of a scene as you do, and they need reference points, even if their mind glazes over them.  Otherwise things get jumbled up in their heads and they have to slow down to read the work instead of visualize your scene.

Sentences should almost always indicate who the speaker is.  Even if it just indicates things by context.  If the speaker ever changes, the fic should indicate that immediately.  And if the speakers change in rapid succession you NEED to tell the readers who is talking in each line.  Otherwise confusion will reign.

Now like all stylistic rules you can ignore this sometimes.  But it's usually only safe to do that with a long body of text, that allows you to emphasize who is speaking with unique dialogue.  And you should still be careful there.

Take a look at some fiction works you'd like to be able to write like.  See how they do it.  I'm reading through a book right now as I write this, and I see several time that the writer doesn't announce a switch, but it's always clear, because she only does it rarely and at well defined points.  Details like this can advance your writing a lot.

But if you just want a hard and fast rule?  Never give a line of dialogue without referencing a character.

[Suikama]

"Is it time yet?"

"Yeah it's almost ready"

"This is going to be big isn't it?"

"Haven't you heard?"

"What?"

"There's going to b*shot*

[capt. h]

You know, at the time I was doing that dialogue thing you said not to do deliberately. I thought it was a bad idea to announce the speakers after every. single. line.

Whoops.

[Ryuu]

You know, at the time I was doing that dialogue thing you said not to do deliberately. I thought it was a bad idea to announce the speakers after every. single. line.

Whoops.

doing he said she said he said she said over and over will get annoying

imo it's better to do things like

"blah blah blah" dude said as he stared intently out the window

"but nyah nyah nyah blah!" chick screamed in retort

"....blah." dude slammed his hand down in frustration.


you don't have to say said or screamed or whispered all the time, but you can use body language to add substance to the scene and make it easy to follow who is saying what

[Bias Bus]

you don't have to say said or screamed or whispered all the time, but you can use body language to add substance to the scene and make it easy to follow who is saying what

I do this sometimes, because I honestly get fed up with 'said' and all that shit.

But if I can't think of the right word I just leave if blank like above :V

[signe_chan]

I'd still rather see he said she said then not have any idea who's talking. I've seen writers do the speech with no context thing with more then two characters having a conversation too. It's bad enough when you can, if you have to, trace back to the start of the conversation and work out who is who. That said, I think there is something to be said for he said she said. Obviously incorporating physical cues etc. into your writing is preferable but if you want to produce a quickest dialogue with the focus being on what is being said then using he said/she said is a nice, easy to ignore contextual cue so the reader can keep track of who's saying what without it interfearing to much in the pace of the conversation.