Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: yorgje on May 27, 2013, 09:33:48 AM
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Congrats to our champion, chum!
Some closing comments, and an exit survey (http://stgrillz.appspot.com/pofv).
Bracket (http://challonge.com/PowerPofvGrillz).
Instructions
- READ ALL OF THE RULES.
- Look at the bracket here (http://"http://challonge.com/PowerPofvGrillz") and contact your opponent via the IRC channel, #pofvgrillz on irc.rizon.net. Their web client is broken, so make sure you are using some other IRC client.
- You must play three matches against your opponent (i.e. 2 winning replays, i.e. your opponent sees "Dead Parrot" 4 times). To report your result, you have three options:
- The preferred option is that you upload your replays to my ftp server, in a folder whose name includes both your nick and your opponent's nick:
| IP address: | 128.135.223.20 |
| username: | stgrillz |
| password: | eldesucks |
Note that you can't upload by just going to ftp://128.135.223.20, you need to use an FTP client like FileZilla. (http://"https://filezilla-project.org/")
- If you can't figure out ftp, you can just upload your replays to your favorite file sharing service (i.e. replays.gensokyo.org), and send me a private message on IRC with the link.
- If you forget to save a replay, it's fine as long as both you and your opponent agree on who won. The losing player needs to send me a private message on IRC indicating who won your match.
Finalized Rules, inspired by KB's recent tournament:
- Double elimination
- Rounds are best of three (two winning replays per round)
- Seeds will be skill-based (i.e. new players vs experienced players in the first round). Geographic location will also be taken into account when matchmaking.
- Lunatic difficulty
- All characters are allowed.
- Characters are not declared beforehand (counter-picking is allowed)
- You may change characters between matches against the same player
- Players may choose any stage (mutual agreement) or may opt to default to Cirno's
- players may choose left/right side of screen, or if agreement cannot be reached:
- Player on top of bracket may opt for left or right side for first two matches
- Player on bottom of bracket may opt for left or right side for third match
- Do not pause, quit, or alt-tab once a match is underway.
- if you made an incorrect character/stage selection, you may quit but only immediately at the start of the first match
- You are expected to play at least one round per day, starting on Sunday, June 9 (unless you have a bye). You are allowed to be a day late, but please try to catch up as soon as you can. Coordinate your matches through the irc.
Also, some links, again courtesy of KB:
Pastebin with info. Dead adonis link though. (http://pastebin.com/nTpD1kf8)
adonis1 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/h45xp2aa2tu5lnn/pofv-adonis1.zip)
adonis2 (http://www.mediafire.com/?h32i2k0fcyiyvo8).
vpatch (http://www.mediafire.com/download/mr60xzw417mx385/pofv-vpatch_adonis.zip)
hamachi (https://secure.logmein.com/products/hamachi/)
It's also worth noting that you'll need to copy/rename your game exe files if you want to have each adonis open the English-patched version of PoFV. Rename th09.exe (Japanese) to something else (like th09j.exe), and copy th09e.exe (English) to th09.exe. The reason for this is that adonise.exe opens th09e.exe and adonis2.exe opens th09.exe.
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Okay, so regarding difficulties:
The main advantage of forcing everyone to play Lunatic is that the matches will all be standardized, so in a sense the rankings feel more legitimate.
On the other hand, I want to make this tournament friendly to people of all skill levels, not just PoFV specializers, and I'm worried that on Lunatic difficulty, new players will be dying more to the game than to each other.
Well, on the other other hand, if you are new and can't chain well, you probably won't be sending much to your opponent's side, so, it might be fine to leave it on Lunatic only.
Your input would be appreciated!
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Be sure to join!
It'll be lots of fun!
:3
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Okay, so regarding difficulties:
The main advantage of forcing everyone to play Lunatic is that the matches will all be standardized, so in a sense the rankings feel more legitimate.
On the other hand, I want to make this tournament friendly to people of all skill levels, not just PoFV specializers, and I'm worried that on Lunatic difficulty, new players will be dying more to the game than to each other.
Well, on the other other hand, if you are new and can't chain well, you probably won't be sending much to your opponent's side, so, it might be fine to leave it on Lunatic only.
Your input would be appreciated!
With a tournament for all skill levels, I'd say set it to Hard.
It's enough that it's not a big round of yukkuri for more skilled players where Normal has this habit of getting boring very fast, but on Lunatic the art of chaining for Level 2 against an undodgeable wall of bullets is a lot harder than some people make it out to be, especially when you're a Normal player on other Touhou games.
I'll join, though I've never played PoFV in netplay.
Watch as I die from 5 frames of input lag! :derp:
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I want to join, but I'm not sure.
Hmm, gimme some time to think, and you may or may not have another combatant.
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With a tournament for all skill levels, I'd say set it to Hard.
This sounds like sound reasoning. I'll wait for a few more responses before making an ultimatum.
I'll join, though I've never played PoFV in netplay.
Watch as I die from 5 frames of input lag! :derp:
Nice to have you on board! Netplay is a lot of fun once you get used to the lag.
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I would recommend leaving it at lunatic because the difference is honestly fairly negligible. It's a big deal against the AI, yes, but not against humans. I'm pretty sure the only difference is that spell levels start at 8 instead of 4 (or 1 on normal/easy), so in effect it's just moving the game ahead about half a minute.
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Yes leave it at Lunatic. The lower the difficulty, the more the game tends toward endlessness.
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Not sure if I'll join, considering the lack of experience I have with netplay (and the fact that I don't know anything about PoFV strategy or chaining or anything like that), but I'll probably give it a go.
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I signed up. I'm not very good at this game but I've done a bunch of Normal 1ccs (if barely) and I play Touhou so much that I think playing against humans would be fun. :)
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I would recommend leaving it at lunatic because the difference is honestly fairly negligible. It's a big deal against the AI, yes, but not against humans. I'm pretty sure the only difference is that spell levels start at 8 instead of 4 (or 1 on normal/easy), so in effect it's just moving the game ahead about half a minute.
Thanks. I actually didn't know what the difference was except that spells seemed to be somewhat stronger on Lunatic than on Normal (I've n-never played hard...).
Not sure if I'll join, considering the lack of experience I have with netplay (and the fact that I don't know anything about PoFV strategy or chaining or anything like that), but I'll probably give it a go.
I signed up. I'm not very good at this game but I've done a bunch of Normal 1ccs (if barely) and I play Touhou so much that I think playing against humans would be fun. :)
I'd highly recommend practicing netplay a bit to get used to the lag, which can be quite noticeable depending on how far away you are from your opponent. If you're looking for matches, join the #pofvgrillz channel on the Rizon IRC network. This channel is also where I plan to have matches coordinated during the actual tournament, so getting there now can't hurt.
Regarding strategy, I'm not a pro, but at an amateurish level of play, this is what I would consider important:
- Chaining: this raises your spell points (upper corner). At certain values (100k, 300k, 500k), you automatically send a level 4 spell to your opponent's side. It's okay if you're bad at chaining, because if you hit 100k right after your opponent does, your level 4 will cancel theirs, which is a good thing. Just be aware of what it does. If you hit 500k spell points, you might want to consider pacifying for a bit to let your chain reset.
- Ex attacks: these are the character specific bullets. You send them to your opponents by destroying spirits (white birdy things), so kill a lot of spirits. Practice playing against a variety of characters to just get used to dodging all of them.
- Bullet reflecting: shooting fairies makes them explode, which also sends any white pellet bullets around them to your opponent's side. Furthermore, if you activate a spirit by making it run into your scope, those also reflect bullets. Thus, you don't always need a level 2 spell to dodge a dense cloud: if there's a spirit or fairy line nearby, you might be able to reflect them back without using your gauge.
- Using level 2s: Never use level 3/4 spells or bombs! Spamming level 2 spells is good for your spell points, which means you'll be sending level 4's for free over to your opponent. It's also smarter defensively, since you get more free passes out of sticky situations. If you're at level 4, shoot off a level 2. The only time you should bomb is if you see a G item (fills your whole gauge) or if you're going to die otherwise. Even then, maybe only if getting hit will put you at your last health (since that also gives you free full gauge).
I've left out some details, and maybe I'm being unclear on some points, but I think I've sort of summarized the important things.
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There's also a "General PoFV Strategy" thread that's still open and on the front page of HME.
Lunatic, please.
adonis2 (http://www.mediafire.com/?h32i2k0fcyiyvo8).
edit: adonis1 (http://www.mediafire.com/download/h45xp2aa2tu5lnn/pofv-adonis1.zip), vpatch (http://www.mediafire.com/download/mr60xzw417mx385/pofv-vpatch_adonis.zip). Uploaded these because the link to adonis1 is dead in both the pastebin and on the wiki, and kaei_adonis' link to the vpatch for adonis keeps timing out for me (not sure if it's different from the one with all the other vpatches, but it's the one I use for multiplayer). I reset the ini files to what I thought were the default values.
It's also worth noting that you'll need to copy/rename your game exe files if you want to have each adonis open the English-patched version of PoFV. Rename th09.exe (Japanese) to something else (like th09j.exe), and copy th09e.exe (English) to th09.exe. The reason for this is that adonise.exe opens th09e.exe and adonis2.exe opens th09.exe.
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Thanks KB. I've updated the OP
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OP has been updated with a few things:
- Difficulty has been fixed at Lunatic.
- I had the wrong date (next week Friday is the 7th, not the 8th. Oops)
- There's been some discussion about whether seeding should be random or skill-based. Please voice your opinion on this matter, if you have one. There's a little bit about this at the bottom of the OP
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you vote for banning medicine as a playable. this tournament is supposed to be fun, right? fighting medicine however is just frustrating and not fun. I know it's a bit unfair for those who main medicine (if there is any), but she is simply unfair for the opponent. it's up to you, though. I just thought I'd throw that in for good emasure.
and as I said on the channel. make it random based on geographical location. seeding zil vs a newcomer for the sake of having a strong vs weak player is unfair for the newcomer. it's a different if it's random because...it'd random. it's simply a matter of fairness, if you ask me.
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There's no need to ban Medicine. She's nowhere near her Lunatic story mode form. In match mode she's neither the most dangerous nor the most annoying (imo). Not with buttheads like Reimu running around.
I don't really have much of an opinion on the seeding. If there weren't a loser's bracket, I'd say the seeding should definitely be skill based. As it is though, you can probably get away with not doing that, and the early matches will be more interesting.
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Neither Medi nor ranked seeding is unfair. Unfun could be true in either case, but there's what Zil said about Medi and there's the fact that ranked seeding is done to ensure fairness. It's incorrect and demeaning to say either is unfair.
I think that whatever is decided in either case will be fine.
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...Is there really not that much of a difference in difficulties?
I notice a HUGE difference, especially in the semi-random semi-aimed tiny bullets that spawn all the time. Yes, it's that big.
Actually, the spell cards is what I didn't notice the difference in.
Buuut anyway, yeah, I'd say skill-based. It's as standard as standard can almost be, which is a good thing.
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No characters will be banned. If we ban medicine, then people will argue that we should ban reimu, marisa, youmu, etc, and then eventually we'll only be allowed to play Cirno. Okay, fallacious slippery slope argument aside, I think that players who are good enough to make medicine awful would also probably be playing other characters.
...Is there really not that much of a difference in difficulties?
I notice a HUGE difference, especially in the semi-random semi-aimed tiny bullets that spawn all the time. Yes, it's that big.
Actually, the spell cards is what I didn't notice the difference in.
I think that the number of tiny bullets has more to do with your opponent than the difficulty. If you're both pacifisting, there's hardly anything on the screen regardless of difficulty. This is an extreme example, but illustrative of the point.
People seem to prefer skill based seeding, so I'll go back to that if that seems to still be the popular consensus after another day or two. (Sorry Sakurei).
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you vote for banning medicine as a playable. this tournament is supposed to be fun, right? fighting medicine however is just frustrating and not fun. I know it's a bit unfair for those who main medicine (if there is any), but she is simply unfair for the opponent. it's up to you, though. I just thought I'd throw that in for good emasure.
and as I said on the channel. make it random based on geographical location. seeding zil vs a newcomer for the sake of having a strong vs weak player is unfair for the newcomer. it's a different if it's random because...it'd random. it's simply a matter of fairness, if you ask me.
IDK if you play any games competitively, but banning characters on a subjective criteria such as "fun" is not how it works.
If you ask me, Reimu is the most annoying. You see? Subjective.
Medicine isn't even close to a top character in Japanese PoFV tournaments, let alone broken.
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I wouldn't mind seeing Medicine banned since she's a horrifying abomination that has no place in a good game like this.
Similarly, I would love to see Ass Fairies removed. One can only dream.
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No need to get argumentative over it. I think Sakurei had a valid point, especially since this is being marketed towards players of all skill levels, not just superplayers. However, yeah I suppose the main thing is that, without sufficient proof of brokenness, I don't feel comfortable banning anyone. Since "brokenness" is hardly a well-defined word, this becomes an even more difficult task.
I wouldn't mind seeing Medicine banned since she's a horrifying abomination that has no place in a good game like this.
Similarly, I would love to see Ass Fairies removed. One can only dream.
b-b-but muh medicine ;_;
By ass fairies, are you referring to the girly creatures in the header? That can be arranged, although I will be a bit sad to see them go.
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By ass fairies, are you referring to the girly creatures in the header? That can be arranged, although I will be a bit sad to see them go.
The fairies that come up from the bottom corner. The number of rounds I've lost due to being rammed by one of them...
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The fairies that come up from the bottom corner. The number of rounds I've lost due to being rammed by one of them...
Oh. Just play lyrica, no big deal :)
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Okay, regarding the character banning discussion:
I've gotten suggestions from several people to allow each player to ban their opponent from playing one character each round. Thoughts? Sounds like a pretty fair compromise to me.
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sounds fair to me. obviously, this is an optinal thing, right? I don't feel the need to impose a ban on anyone when I am playing some people knowing they won't want to dick me over with a terrible choice.
though that pretty much makes riemu unplayable against most people, since I imagine they won't want to fight her :D
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Alright, I'm going for this even though I couldn't host before and I've played only one netplay match. ^^;
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we in there
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will the tournament is uploaded to a video site such as youtube?
my computer was very slow like my improvement in touhou
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Note: Today is the last day to sign up! I'll be making the bracket in about 15 hours or so, and whoever's signed up by then will be included.
Also, the rules have been finalized, so feel free to study them in earnest.
sounds fair to me. obviously, this is an optinal thing, right? I don't feel the need to impose a ban on anyone when I am playing some people knowing they won't want to dick me over with a terrible choice.
though that pretty much makes riemu unplayable against most people, since I imagine they won't want to fight her :D
Yes, it's optional.
Alright, I'm going for this even though I couldn't host before and I've played only one netplay match. ^^;
Good luck! Try to get some netplay practice before the tourney though, as it's very different from 1p.
will the tournament is uploaded to a video site such as youtube?
my computer was very slow like my improvement in touhou
With the permission of the players, some matches may end up on youtube.
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I'd join but I have no idea how PoFV netplay works XD
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I'd join but I have no idea how PoFV netplay works XD
It's pretty straightforward, although it can take some debugging to set up. If you join us on IRC, we'd be happy to help you get it set up.
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All characters are allowed. However, at the beginning of each game, each player can pick 1 character that their opponent may not use in that game.
I highly object to this. I think the only reasonably fair way to go about this is to make everyone lock in a pick at the start of the tournament. This would allow you to remove the character that you most dislike, but it wouldn't allow you to use this rule as a weapon against specific opponents. As it stands now, you can simply choose your opponent's main in every round, forcing him to use a character that he's less comfortable with, regardless of whether that specific character bothers you. This doesn't simply miss the point of the rule, it completely subverts it.
When I read the initial suggestion, I thought that a locked-in choice was what was meant. I would have spoken up sooner if I had known that the idea was to allow players to change their pick every round.
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I highly object to this. I think the only reasonably fair way to go about this is to make everyone lock in a pick at the start of the tournament. This would allow you to remove the character that you most dislike, but it wouldn't allow you to use this rule as a weapon against specific opponents. As it stands now, you can simply choose your opponent's main in every round, forcing him to use a character that he's less comfortable with, regardless of whether that specific character bothers you. This doesn't simply miss the point of the rule, it completely subverts it.
When I read the initial suggestion, I thought that a locked-in choice was what was meant. I would have spoken up sooner if I had known that the idea was to allow players to change their pick every round.
This sounds like a sound argument. I think I misunerstood the suggestion as initially posed to me. I'll change the rules to reflect this.
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Yeah that should definitely be changed.
I'll be watching from the sidelines occasionally.
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Actually, the whole ban issue is way too contentious, so let's just go with no bans.
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As a reminder, you are expected to have your first match today.
If you don't have your match by tomorrow (Monday), and your opponent has been around but you have not, you will be DISQUALIFIED.
If neither of you show up, it counts as a disqualification for both.
If you have both showed up but missed each other, we'll discuss this case by case.
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Reminder to pop over to the IRC channel at rizon (http://www.rizon.net/) to chat about the pofv tourny and arrange your fight with your opponent! :3
Head over to #pofvgrillz and check if your opponent is around, feel free to ask questions etc. too! :derp:
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posting from my workplace to say that, due to internet connection problems, I must abandon the tournament :( (spent this whole weekend and the night of friday without internet access, the ISP told me that they would send a technician on the saturday afternoon, then on the sunday morning, then on the sunday afternoon, then he didn't show up. Sorry for the inconvenience.. while I look for another ISP :( )
my apologies to the participants and organizers T__T
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No problem, tis a pity you need to drop out like this. I hope to see you around next time!
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congrats chum!!!!!!!!!
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Good job, chum!
Also, still a little peeved off about the latency thing, especially considering how well "the suckiest" did afterwards (you falsely advertise your skill level with your name, you're anything BUT the suckiest >.>), but there's nothing I can do about it, I suppose. ^^;
EDIT: Also, the Swiss pool system might be a good idea (I had no idea it existed until now, to be honest). I'd give it a shot, seeing as it allows players plenty of opportunities to play and they can play people closer to their skill level instead of lolderping into someone of a completely different skill level due to the original seeding (which, I admit, is hard to do correctly, so there's no real problems with the seeding when this has been a first-time thing anyways). At least that's how I see it.
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Damn, chummy.
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Good job, chum!
Also, still a little peeved off about the latency thing, especially considering how well "the suckiest" did afterwards (you falsely advertise your skill level with your name, you're anything BUT the suckiest >.>), but there's nothing I can do about it, I suppose. ^^;
EDIT: Also, the Swiss pool system might be a good idea (I had no idea it existed until now, to be honest). I'd give it a shot, seeing as it allows players plenty of opportunities to play and they can play people closer to their skill level instead of lolderping into someone of a completely different skill level due to the original seeding (which, I admit, is hard to do correctly, so there's no real problems with the seeding when this has been a first-time thing anyways). At least that's how I see it.
you should fly over to your opponents country next time and have a LAN match
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Also, still a little peeved off about the latency thing, especially considering how well "the suckiest" did afterwards (you falsely advertise your skill level with your name, you're anything BUT the suckiest >.>)
don't try to judge someone's skill level by anything they say about themselves. always ask a third person. (most would have told you I'm a "top-player", even though I strongly disagree with that assessment.objectively, I like to rate myself in midrange skill-wise) there were enough players in the channel that fought me before. things people say about themselves tend to be unreliable and outright wrong. and even if a third and fourth person tell you you're better, play with everything. don't be like "oh, I'm better, so I'll win anyway". I tell you this because it seemed like you were expecting to win based on a nickname I randomly chose. for example: I was told (way before our match) that I'd beat you if we were to fight each other, but I still didn't go into the fight with a mindset that I'd beat you anyway. I always think of my opponents as equal or they're better than me.
next is: latency is something you have to deal with in netplay. nobody is at a disadvantage if both players have 8 latency. one may be more used to it, but that'd probably be the case with any because he played more. blaming your loss on latency is silly and a bad excuse.
don't be hung up over losing. there can only be one winner, after all. with that in mind, congratulations, chum.
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I actually never expected to beat you based on your nickname, considering I had already figured you were good and I knew I had nowhere near enough experience with the game. It was that "shitplay" comment from you that did it a little (it was something like "expect shitplay from me" or something like that). And most of my anger wasn't at you, just the latency and not being used to it (plus it's hard to transition from playing at a low latency to a high latency). And I'm not "hung up" over it either. I already said I was only a little peeved off, not completely full-blown pissed at it like I was before. It sounds like you think I'm not over it or something, when in fact my anger is at a minimum. >.>
EDIT: Also, I did say "but there's nothing I can do about it, I suppose," which was meant to mean, "I'm over it," even if it doesn't sound that way.
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Congrats Chum! :D