Author Topic: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread  (Read 317930 times)

Garlyle

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #840 on: December 31, 2009, 02:00:56 AM »
I'd like to think the same, but it looks like most people in this topic seem to disagree, since over the course of the whole thing people keep mentioning how person X makes person Y obsolete as they progress through the game and find various "upgrades" (such as one person pointing out that there's no legitimate reason to use Chen once you get Aya, for example).

I think there's only one case of that -
Spoiler:
Sanae beats out Minoriko overall, I think.  Minoriko has minimally higher HP and MND, if I remember right, but both are frail regardless.  Someone pointed out that Minoriko's healing did more than Sanae's and requires less recharge time after - this is actually true, but Sanae has a major MAG stat growth advantage over Minoriko that helps to even out the effectiveness.  I personally find that most stuff that you'd want healing for tends to throw status effects too @_@

But you can really use just about any team you want.  Just, not everyone's great for every situation and it'll be a heck of a lot harder if you take in, say,
Spoiler:
Yuugi to the Eientei fight, because Yuugi might be able to do lots of damage, but she'll be downed by their spells in like two attacks
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 02:09:26 AM by Garlyle »

Ghaleon

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #841 on: December 31, 2009, 02:16:46 AM »
Spoiler:
Sanae beats out Minoriko overall, I think.  Minoriko has minimally higher HP and MND, if I remember right, but both are frail regardless.  Someone pointed out that Minoriko's healing did more than Sanae's and requires less recharge time after - this is actually true, but Sanae has a major MAG stat growth advantage over Minoriko that helps to even out the effectiveness.  I personally find that most stuff that you'd want healing for tends to throw status effects too @_@

Not sure if I agree with status debuffs being an issue every time I heal someone. But Part of me wants to agree, however I made a post previously about that comparison right there. For me, "better character" frequently dies to stuff that doesn't hurt "worse character" as bad, despite having better mnd. And it's not because of it being a specific weaker element, it just happens. Like even physical attacks 1shot better character like it was hitting patchy or something. You all probably think it's just my imagination though >=P.

Anyway I use both though because they both provide something there is precious little of in this game.

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #842 on: December 31, 2009, 02:19:04 AM »
Not quite.  Nitori's ATK stat is... actually very average.  Her growth is 10; for comparison, she has the same ATK growth as Wriggle,
Spoiler:
Mystia
, and Ran, none of whom are known for their physical attack stat.  15 characters place above her and 21 below her.  The ONLY reason she's got decent damage is that her multipliers are huge.

It's worth noting that Illusionary Waterfall does have a 550% multiplier... but that's only AFTER defense is applied.  Given her low ATK, anything that has any notable defense will basically take nothing from it.  However, Megawatt Linear Gun is a multiplier to the attack, not the final value, so it's made to pierce defenses.

The thing is, while she's got a potential crapload of power, her other stats also are all at best average and at worst below-average, except for having good CLD and NTR stats in the game (But with that said it's only a 160-someodd, even though her CLD is one of the highest).  Even though she can self-buff her DEF and MND, they're still not going to be the kind of thing you'd really count on, but the SPD buff is at least decent because there's not a lot of characters that can SPD-buff that are good for actual offense.

it's called twinking

i have Nitori at 900k ATK

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Ghaleon

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #843 on: December 31, 2009, 02:22:53 AM »
it's called twinking

i have Nitori at 900k ATK

And you can twink anybody else an even greater amount provided their stat growth is greater to begin with (which we already established is the case for most physical characters).

Now, the question is does that greater amount out-weigh for the 8X multiplier on you know what?

Thing is I think Nitori looks like a really fun character due to how situational  but potentially over-powered her skills are.

Sigh.. stupid Valkarie sky, and stupid gensokyo tower defense. I want to finish this game so I can play it again with a new set of characters! >=P

Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #844 on: December 31, 2009, 02:52:43 AM »
I guess since we're discussing aquabitch I may as well ask... Whats the difference between her CLD and NTR multi-hit spells? I noticed the latter is slightly stronger, but there may be something I'm missing between the two...

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Serela

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #845 on: December 31, 2009, 02:59:38 AM »
I guess since we're discussing aquabitch I may as well ask... Whats the difference between her CLD and NTR multi-hit spells? I noticed the latter is slightly stronger, but there may be something I'm missing between the two...
If you look on the wiki, the damage formula's are drastically different.

5.5(ATK-(T.DEF/2))=Very high damage against low defense targets. If their defense is more then twice Nitori's attack, 0 damage.

Then the NTR one is like 2.5(ATKx2-(T.DEF/2)), which is a fairly strong damage formula as well, probably to make up for lower ATK stat. Most attacks are fairly close to this formula.

Her Megawatt Gun is like 1.25(ATKx8(T.DEF/2)).

This is basically the format of damage formulas in this game. There are differences, for example, Minoriko's attacks don't suck despite low MAG stat because Falling Leaves of Madness has the special advantage of having T.DEFx0.10. Thats why she still deals damage against mega-high-defense stuff.
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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #846 on: December 31, 2009, 03:37:48 AM »
If you look on the wiki, the damage formula's are drastically different.
The japanese one that has one of Google Translate's most rediculous results?

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Serela

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #847 on: December 31, 2009, 03:41:57 AM »
The japanese one that has one of Google Translate's most rediculous results?
The English wiki works too, of course! http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Characters

Almost all of the main game characters are completely filled in.

Some sub-par attack stat characters have good damage formulas to back up their worse stats. Minoriko's Falling Leaves of Madness almost completely ignoring Mind is a bit of an extreme example, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 03:45:39 AM by NeoSerela »
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MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #848 on: December 31, 2009, 03:50:04 AM »
I personally use whoever I want >_> My part consists of
Spoiler:
Remilia, Reimu, Marisa, Patchy, Sanae, Youmu, Meiling, Cirno, Chen, Wriggle, Ran and Alice
... Now say what you will, but I like this party and it likes me :3 I am more then willing to switch it up a bit, but thats what I use and I have little to no trouble on things :D

Touhou wikia is a great plave for info, on the series, on the games, ect :) I personally recommend it if you need a bit of help.

Milkyway64

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #849 on: December 31, 2009, 04:23:26 AM »
At level 340, I find both Chen and Aya to have lost their magic. For combat at least. (that speed makes it easy to explore by running from everything with no chance of something attacking) Both are way too frail and everything seems to keep up with them now. Their damage output is way outshined by my other members now (Chen hits for 200,000 while the other three hit in the 500,000~700,000 range, and it's not like Idaton spam can save her since I can only use it once before the enemy would have a chance to hit her.)

Speaking of, I once commented on Remilia losing effectiveness. BS I say. She is the first member not named Komachi to break 100,000 HP with nice defensive stats and excellent attack. Still great.

On a side note, how high should I aim for skill levels? What should the "cap" be before things can be considered going overboard and should instead be invested in other characters? And why are we mentioning 6-10 names as well?

Ghaleon

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #850 on: December 31, 2009, 04:49:05 AM »
Due to the cumulative costs of stacking skillpoints, it's actually not a good idea to stack them unless you're needing a stat in particular to beat a certain challenge that requires one thing (such as stacking attack so you can beat the dps race of killing some boss after casting focus and 1shotting your entire party, or stacking fire resist against trogdor).

Favoring some stats is definitely ideal since the costs for a character's stats depends on their base growth (for example each skillpoint in attack is cheaper for remilia than it is for patchy), combined with the fact that being % based means you get more actual numbers out of the deal. But I really think it's a bad idea to say, put 200 skillpoints in patchy's magic stat while your other casters magic stats, or patchy's mnd stat, or your other defensive stats in general are below 100. By doing that, Patchy's damage output may double yes, but chances are, your entire party's survivability also got cut in half, because it takes 2 million skillpoints to make her mag go from 200 to 210, and 2 million could give you like 20 mnd/def on your entire party when it's below 80.
Speed is also a factor. Hitting twice as hard isn't as good as hitting twice as fast (once sp becomes non-issue that is. I find it is for me, I mean, I can cast whatever I want as often as I want, and if I run out of sp, it's cuz someone casted djinn storm or destroy magic or something >=P), because if you hit faster, that means you can also switch faster, or focus faster as well. Speed is also more important on trash fights where being able to attack before the enemy is key.

Seriously though, I've said it before and I mean it, the balance of this game is jaw-droppingly impressive. I don't really think there's a "one" strategy or build.

Milkyway64

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #851 on: December 31, 2009, 11:21:42 AM »
Understood.

So, 350 now. I can handle a good few of the floor 30 encounters, but no luck on the other three ver.2 bloodstained seal bosses or, of course, Serpent of Chaos. I'm a bit concerned about the EXP now, though. It takes longer and longer to gain a level. At this rate, it'll be about 15 minutes to gain even one, I'm guessing? Oh boy. X_x

Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #852 on: December 31, 2009, 03:50:39 PM »
So I'm having trouble with the final bloodstained seal boss (the two Hibachis). Any tips? Reimu is level 160, so I'm about 20 levels below the minimum recommended by the wiki, but that wasn't a problem for the other bosses. Or should I move on to floor 21 (the only other postgame, pre-plus disk content remaining is final boss 2.0 and boss rush 2.0, neither of which I can do at the moment).

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #853 on: December 31, 2009, 04:17:32 PM »
I find that Chen and Aya serve somewhat different purposes. Chen is great for speed damaging while I use Aya for bosses to speed buff everyone and switch out.

I find that using a combination of Peerless Wind God and Sarutahiko's Guidance is a great way to have Aya quickly throw speed buffs around to the more important people and get out of the line of fire before she's hit. This strategy works swimmingly with
Spoiler:
Suika's Missing Power buff that ups her ATK and DEF by a large margin while halving her speed.


Just a GBZero

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #854 on: December 31, 2009, 04:31:46 PM »
I find that Chen and Aya serve somewhat different purposes. Chen is great for speed damaging while I use Aya for bosses to speed buff everyone and switch out.

I find that using a combination of Peerless Wind God and Sarutahiko's Guidance is a great way to have Aya quickly throw speed buffs around to the more important people and get out of the line of fire before she's hit. This strategy works swimmingly with
Spoiler:
Suika's Missing Power buff that ups her ATK and DEF by a large margin while halving her speed.
Which reminds me, is it just me or does it seem like
Spoiler:
Missing Power
sometimes not decrease speed.  I've noticed that on mine, and I think its a chance one, based off of stat debuff resistance.  Anyone else notice similar?

Serela

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #855 on: December 31, 2009, 04:39:13 PM »
Which reminds me, is it just me or does it seem like
Spoiler:
Missing Power
sometimes not decrease speed.  I've noticed that on mine, and I think its a chance one, based off of stat debuff resistance.  Anyone else notice similar?
Increasing your Debuff (or any status) resistance to at least 34 means you should never, ever be debuffed by anything. I hear there are some DTH attacks with over 100% chance of hitting, though. Yeah, this includes self-buffs that hurt you, very useful with Remilia,
Spoiler:
Suika, Tenshi
.

I have 10F gal outfitted with gear to increase her resistances and DEF/MND at the same time, it works wonders. She's incredible when she takes 0 damage from everything and can't get hit by status effects either; you can just switch nukers in and out while focusing/buffing. Although this doesn't work against bosses with DEF/MND piercing attacks that can deal too much damage to just switch in a healer.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #856 on: December 31, 2009, 09:56:30 PM »
Since I'm stuck with grinding for a good while, what do you guys suggest my main chars' SKP levels be at before I try tackling the floor 12 brigade again?

Right now the highest is aroud 35-40, which is for Chen, while most of the rest are around 30-35 in their best stats.

"What do you mean 'stop repeating everything you say'?"

Garlyle

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #857 on: January 01, 2010, 08:03:10 AM »
Since I'm stuck with grinding for a good while, what do you guys suggest my main chars' SKP levels be at before I try tackling the floor 12 brigade again?

Right now the highest is aroud 35-40, which is for Chen, while most of the rest are around 30-35 in their best stats.

That's about how mine were.  30-40 in the most important stats, ~20 in other stats that were worth the investment, 5-10 in affinities depending on need, and about 10-15 speed each.

Ghaleon

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #858 on: January 01, 2010, 09:28:55 AM »
Understood.

So, 350 now. I can handle a good few of the floor 30 encounters, but no luck on the other three ver.2 bloodstained seal bosses or, of course, Serpent of Chaos. I'm a bit concerned about the EXP now, though. It takes longer and longer to gain a level. At this rate, it'll be about 15 minutes to gain even one, I'm guessing? Oh boy. X_x

I was kinda wondering how on earth trance can be level 1000 without being a bot.... Now I guess this confirms he's a bot.

Just bear in mind that you get your exp faster as you can kill the trash faster at least. Probably one perk to stacking attack on one character an ungodly amount, just for leveling purposes.

Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #859 on: January 01, 2010, 10:01:34 AM »
That's about how mine were.  30-40 in the most important stats, ~20 in other stats that were worth the investment, 5-10 in affinities depending on need, and about 10-15 speed each.
So then why is the group owning me so much? =/

My strategy is to open with one of the two main tanks, the two defense buffers, then Patchy, and basically try to tank out. Only problem is the two defense buffers run out of SP at about the same time, and swapping in two new ones that aren't as protected usually = my death.

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Ghaleon

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #860 on: January 01, 2010, 10:10:48 AM »
Everyone says to stun right-bish. I found killing her was easier. I hope you tried the other strat if one isn't working for you? Just bear in mind that I found the fight much easier after that one was dead (as in, even if you have 4 dead dudes, don't panic). Of course, I have a ridiculously good instinct for knowing when a boss in pretty much any rpg is gonna die. So I'm pretty good at "kill them at the same time" schemes

Garlyle

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #861 on: January 01, 2010, 12:03:27 PM »
So then why is the group owning me so much? =/

My strategy is to open with one of the two main tanks, the two defense buffers, then Patchy, and basically try to tank out. Only problem is the two defense buffers run out of SP at about the same time, and swapping in two new ones that aren't as protected usually = my death.

That's what happened to me too.

But you gotta push.  MND-buffing is to guard while Patchy starts whittling em down; then start rotating characters around rapidly.  Among others, I used Wriggle, Suwako, and Marisa to deal damage out.  It's a bit tough to do the damage you want, but if Patchy has hit wall status and has good SP Recovery (Try the Holy Win on her which I -think- you should have by now?), it's mostly up to her Royal Flare to chip through stuff.

That's what happened for me anyway.

Milkyway64

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #862 on: January 01, 2010, 03:44:04 PM »
I was kinda wondering how on earth trance can be level 1000 without being a bot.... Now I guess this confirms he's a bot.

Just bear in mind that you get your exp faster as you can kill the trash faster at least. Probably one perk to stacking attack on one character an ungodly amount, just for leveling purposes.

Yeah. My Flandre is killing every floor 27 encounter in one move, and I made her my fastest character on the front four. I'm a bit higher now, but the "EXP until next level" grows startlingly fast. Floor 30 encounters better be very quick and easy later on, because while they give out 10x the EXP of previous floors they are also more or less superboss encounters and it'd be quicker anyway to fight 10 battles on the lower floors.

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #863 on: January 02, 2010, 04:01:41 AM »
Any tips for the 12F optional boss
Spoiler:
Mokou? She ripped me to pieces earlyer...
I also have trouble on the 13F and 14F trash, they are way fast, compared to me >_>

Ghaleon

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #864 on: January 02, 2010, 05:36:49 AM »
Any tips for the 12F optional boss
Spoiler:
Mokou? She ripped me to pieces earlyer...
I also have trouble on the 13F and 14F trash, they are way fast, compared to me >_>

If spoiler boss is owning you without chain casting
Spoiler:
fu-something volcano
over and over, don't bother fighting her without leveling up for now. Because no matter what you do, THAT *WILL* kill you.

As for trash, you're at the point in the game where every new floor of trash is extremely intimidating and overwhelming. Get used to it. Basically trash in this game is always ridiculously hard when it's new if you're level appropriate, and you'll be musing to yourself how damn easy it is in like 5 levels, it's funny like that. Floor 13 or 14 is the floor with those sword-beak flying fish thingies that move really fast and can 1-shot pretty much anybody right? I hate those things. Then the floor after feature (going by memory here) golems which seem to have as many hp as a boss, move slow as a truck, but when they DO move, someone dies...And always seem to come in pairs.

The game is alot like Ys, every new dungeon or floor or whatever has new enemies that make you crap your pants, and before long, you level up and it's easy, even if you don't go out of your way to level up elsewhere.

Milkyway64

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #865 on: January 02, 2010, 10:21:29 AM »
I swear to god Centura Beast ver.2's breakaway has more HP than it's normal form. I wail and wail and wail and it does not diiiiiieeeeee... @_@

Krimmydoodle

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #866 on: January 02, 2010, 04:15:15 PM »
Yeah, I found it to be the hardest of the 21F bosses.  Just keep wailing, and make sure you have tanks in both front and back rather than your first two slots (since Wave Blaaaaaast hits your front and back members), and that Reimu can keep up with Exorcising Borders.
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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #867 on: January 02, 2010, 08:44:28 PM »
Quote
If spoiler boss is owning you without chain casting
Spoiler:
fu-something volcano over and over
, don't bother fighting her without leveling up for now. Because no matter what you do, THAT *WILL* kill you.

Lol, I get owned by
Spoiler:
Curse of Iwakasa being spammed, or Wu spamage. Those 2 moves being used so much rips me up X_X

Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #868 on: January 03, 2010, 01:00:47 AM »
Since I've lowered myself to just plain grinding I must ask: What, exactly, causes TP to drop?

I know that one round of combat that ends before any enemies move takes 1 away from everyone and running from combat takes 3 from everyone, but what else drains TP?

"What do you mean 'stop repeating everything you say'?"

Ghaleon

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Re: Touhou Labyrinth discussion thread
« Reply #869 on: January 03, 2010, 01:28:25 AM »
Since I've lowered myself to just plain grinding I must ask: What, exactly, causes TP to drop?

I know that one round of combat that ends before any enemies move takes 1 away from everyone and running from combat takes 3 from everyone, but what else drains TP?

First rounds of combat have nothing to do with TP, nor enemies moving.

ending a battle with full health = 1 TP
ending a battle with 80-99%(% may be off, I'm just giving you the general idea) health = 2TP
60-80% health=3tp
40-60%=4tp
1-40%=5tp. Again, %s are random guesses, I really don't remember, but basically the amount of tp a battle cost depends on how much health you had at the end of the battle, where it's impossible to lose none at all (other than not being in the active party during the fight).

I know you need 2 tp to switch people, I don't know if it costs tp.
running costs 2 tp + whatever you would have lost anyway if you had won the battle. Since you always lose 1, 2+1 = 3tp.

Very specific moves cause you to lose TP, as far as I know, it's only Scarlet gold sword, and uhh, that aoe move that a certain stage 18 boss opens with. (and casts periodically thru the fight).