Or because they expected/prefers generic mo? drawings, and ZUN art is clearly the opposite of that.
I think it's actually kind of obvious that ZUN is attempting to make his characters look cute and "moe," but they come out as poorly-drawn blobs
(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9205/pcbtrialsakuyaditz.jpg)
What are you talking about? PCB Demo Sakuya is adorable.
I will never get tired of this screencap
I think it's actually kind of obvious that ZUN is attempting to make his characters look cute and "moe," but they come out as poorly-drawn blobs (although, to a degree, he is getting better), which is off-putting to less-tolerant folk. I would say, "Suck it up!" to such people who might complain about his artwork, though, since at least his drawings are so bad that they can be used for a good laugh rather than haunt your subconscious (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gWyqAjQ7Ug) with scream-yourself-wide-awake nightmares for eternity~ :V
I guess my main problem with his drawing is the lack of consistency. Some characters turn out well, while others just don't, and it doesn't seem to have much to do with how recent they are. His style has changed, yes, but the overall quality is the same to me, if not worse.
Her outfit is more than just a frilly dress, her haircut is epic (DOG EARS FTW :V) and she's well proportionned. Something not many portraits have :/
I think the main gripe comes from how most doujin groups have more than one member, and at least one good artist as well. ZUN's a one-man-team - it'd be kinda ludicrous to expect top-tier gameplay, top-tier graphics, and top-tier music all from the same person.
Makes me wonder how his work would differ if he was sober...not that the world is ready for such a thing.
Reimu: ...
Marisa: ...
Reimu: Hey wanna have some really kinky sex involving tentacles?
Marisa, suddenly dressed as a schoolgirl: I'M DEFENSELESS, SO I'LL WALK IN THIS RANDOM DARK ALLEY :D
So basically it would become like every other japanese thing ever :V
I lol'd heartily this day. Very, very heartily.
(http://i.imgur.com/cwp40.png)
lol, lolibugeyes; but that's not the point...
Reimu: Oh hi Marisa.
Marisa: Hey Reimu.
Reimu: ...
Marisa: ...
Reimu: Why isn't there some sort of weird incident happening?
Marisa: Dunno.
Reimu: ...
Marisa: ...
Reimu: Hey wanna have some really kinky sex involving tentacles?
Marisa, suddenly dressed as a schoolgirl: I'M DEFENSELESS, SO I'LL WALK IN THIS RANDOM DARK ALLEY :D
So basically it would become like every other japanese thing ever :V
This must not be allowed to happen!!
Who needs drawing skills when you can create Great Voice "Charged Yahoo!"? (I love the gimmick of Kyouko's spellcards...).
Yeah, ZUN is incredible, that's no surprise, but when you stop for a moment and think about it, he thought up and made all those spellcards and gimmicks that we see in the games. It's just incredible, at least to me. And the best part is that every game has a new gimmick.
EoSD: Time Stop (Though everything was remade, that's a unique thing no other game has)
PCB: Youmu's bullet time
MoF: Err...
SA: Satori's first spellcard that is affected by your movements, pretty much everything with Koishi in it.
UFO: Brofists, anchors, curvy lasers in great quantity.
TD: Kyouko's reflection, Yoshika's eating habit, Seiga's double-teaming, Miko's last spellcard.
I wouldn't have thought of half the things he did. ZUN is amazing. I seriously can't wait for Touhou 14 and see what other fancy things he did. (Plus awesome music :D)
What about IN?
For example, Toyosatomimi having two right hands (even though ZUN should know better by now, considering how much he had technically improved by UFO)~
(http://i.imgur.com/HfNuX.png)
Let's see...
-Main characters acting like morons and taking their sweet time to get anything done, even on a speedy run
-Equally bumbling or innocuous antagonists
-Frequently confusing plot that was confirmably made while ZUN was drunk
-A two-woman mini-Death Star fueled by bickering
-The world's longest-running and least-motivated immortal blood feud grudge match.
Imperishable Night is the Touhouest of Touhou games. :V
Bitch, get out the way!
Border team: Yukari acting weird
Magic team: They actually went foward.
Scarlet team: Remilia picking fights with everyone, Sakuya trying to stop her
Netherworld team: Yuyuko's special... condition.
I wouldn't say ''take their time'', it's more like they have an annoying team member.
But anyway, you forgot the NUMBER 1 MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER in IN.
Alice and Marisa's snarky dialogue. Oh sweet, sweet dialogue >u<
Magic team: They actually went foward.
But anyway, you forgot the NUMBER 1 MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER in IN.
Alice and Marisa's snarky dialogue. Oh sweet, sweet dialogue >u<
Honestly, I believe that there should be more Marisa/Alice team-ups in future core Touhou games--and not for some silly pairing reason or other such nonsense. I just can never get enough of those two; their chemistry is nearly unrivaled within the Touhou universe. Not to mention, they make for the perfect heroic duo: the witty boke powerhouse and the elegant tsukkomi brain, both being highly unorthodox personally, but justifiably good-willed~
I think that's a good point, if the subject here is ZUN's art. Do backgrounds and stage design concepts not also count as "art"? If so, ZUN has done some incredible things with the medium.
This video is my favorite example: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbJRMT0e2g&t=1m47s) Imperishable Night, 6A, Boss fight with Eirin. This stage is, from an artistic point of view, a thoroughly enjoyable experience. Leaving aside gameplay, it is aesthetically pleasing on any difficulty - the suddenly shifting backgrounds, which include the iconic moon landing photo, are jarring and also play to the game's theme of the moon. At the same time, the bullet patterns themselves represent elements of Eirin as a character - namely, chemistry in particular and science in general. Her spellcard concepts refer to and reflect things like genetics ("Genealogy of the Sky-Born"), the British mathematician John Horton Conway ("Game of Life"), and the Apollo 13 mission ("Apollo 13"), not just in their names and descriptions but in the patterns themselves.
This is an artistic choice on ZUN's part. It does not affect gameplay to design your bullet patterns after personality traits of the boss; it's something ZUN chose to do for purely aesthetic reasons, to better convey the concepts behind his character and the game itself - and that is a decision an artist makes.
I'm going to go ahead and quote myself here, to get us back onto the thread's actual subject. Not every thread on this board needs to derail, I don't think.
Why has no one mentioned Yuyuko's fan?
I think that's a good point, if the subject here is ZUN's art. Do backgrounds and stage design concepts not also count as "art"? If so, ZUN has done some incredible things with the medium.
This is an artistic choice on ZUN's part. It does not affect gameplay to design your bullet patterns after personality traits of the boss; it's something ZUN chose to do for purely aesthetic reasons, to better convey the concepts behind his character and the game itself - and that is a decision an artist makes.
Oh, absolutely~! From just about any of the Windows games, the backgrounds and designs are stunningly gorgeous; I don't think I can find it in me to say a single negative statement about them (in fact, half of the time while I'm playing, I'm wondering what methods and tools he used to create them)~
To be fair, ZUN has improved since EoSD and before. I think a lot of the criticism his artwork is getting is something that stuck from the earlier days. Even so, ZUN doesn't compare to a doujin artist who specializes in being an artist. Personally I'd love to see more artwork like in GFW; that looked on par with what you'd expect from a game like this. But ZUN's stuff works too; his sprites are damned good IMO and that's really the bulk of the game.
Someone mentioned this before: The art style for GFW makes the characters look a tad bit... chubby...
Also, what are people's opinions on the drawings from 1 to 5? As I said in the first post, I think they're pretty good, even if we don't get to see the full portraits for most of the characters. I think they look somewhat like manga/anime art style from the 80s.
What about IN?
Btw, EoSD Sakuya:
http://i.imgur.com/TFZ6s.jpg
These are the two of the funniest expressions in the series. I don't understand how someone can hate it :(
BUT I LOVE HIS ART UNIRONICALLYTouhou just isn't the same without aderpable ZUNart. The fighting game and GFW art just rub me the wrong way.
it is pretty unique o <o) his style has this character that fits with the carefree nature of the gam
why do people call andrew hussie a god when he has a team and everything[/sizees imo
]
These are the two of the funniest expressions in the series. I don't understand how someone can hate it :(
and the fighting game art isn't good get a pair of eyes people ;_;
Miko's...flower. (If anyone could tell me what it actually is, I'd really appreciate)
According to the wiki (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Toyosatomimi_no_Miko), it's a butterfly and a reference to "Zhuangzi's butterfly dream", a Taoist philosophy story.
And yes, it does look pretty cool. :)
I have mixed opinions about how the spellcards look. MoF and SA were great in that department, UFO was kind of hit and miss, and TD was really lacking imo, especially in the second half of the game. Utsuho and Byakuren had this thing going with really flashy and creative stuff, and Miko just didn't do it. Oddly, the nonspells in TD look much cooler than what you'd expect.
IN Marisa is third, because I love rainbows.
In my opinion he don't draw badly, it's his style of drawing, something more simple and I love the little details that he made in the character design like the snake at the Sanae's hair or the key at Nitori's chest. Also when you beat the bosses they appear with some part of the clothes torn or with that big tear at the eyes it's pretty comic.No, he's a bad artist. His anatomy, hands, and faces are generally fucked up beyond comprehension, and everyone is Chubbycheeks Sausagelimbs. These kinds of things aren't style; they're outright bad art. Character design has little to do with actual art skill.
More or less related, anyone else niticed hiw random his character designs are? Marisa's random wand just pops in like an unwanted child, and reappears and disappears randomly. The hell, ZUN?!Just like reimu's exorcising stick (gohei) got a hell of random length every single game people will think she stole it from goku :V
No, he's a bad artist. His anatomy, hands, and faces are generally fucked up beyond comprehension, and everyone is Chubbycheeks Sausagelimbs. These kinds of things aren't style; they're outright bad art. Character design has little to do with actual art skill.
That said, his drawings are adorable as fuck. Youmu's TD cut-in is just the cutest thing.
I also think IaMP/SWR artwork is lovely (Yukari's weird hair in her defeat portrait aside).
Did ZUN draw something at the fighting series? I thought that other guys helped him at these games.
Touhou just isn't the same without aderpable ZUNart. The fighting game and GFW art just rub me the wrong way.
and the fighting game art isn't good get a pair of eyes people ;_;
As far as I know, all the character portraits for the fighting games were done by other people. That quote was meant to be seperate from the ZUNart bit, responding to this sentiment:
I thought it was almost-universal fact that ZUN is not a very good artist.Things like these have no facts, only opinions.
I finds his portraits strange, but at least I enjoy his background and danmaku art.
Things like these have no facts, only opinions.
Saying you like his art is one thing, (a good number of people does) but nobody will go as far as saying ''ZUN's draws much better than he composes music!''
Unless someone who happens to hate Touhou for whatever reason is out to get a reaction out of fans...
Though, I would also love to see Iku (http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/8/82/MAGNet_20100502_3_Iku.jpg), Tenshi (http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/1/16/MAGNet_20100502_4_Tenshi.jpg), and Suika (http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/0/06/Suika_rough.jpg) in danmaku games with the art he's made for them. His eye for design has only improved over the years.
W-wow... they're really good... Who knew?
Er... I don't know about you, but they look just about exactly the same as his usual work to me. Solid, considering his common style, but not anything where I'm suddenly going to say, "Wow~! It's so different~!"
(Although, personally, I do think his Iku certainly looks the best of the three.)
He has no grasp of anatomy or value,
I guess I should add that while I think the dude's a bad illustrator, I also think he's a fairly-to-very skilled character designer, depending on the character in question.
What do you mean by "value" there?
he can sometimes achieve a decent skin colour, but the shading makes it look washed out and anaemic.
I completely agree; granted, I do find a few of his designs to be a bit clunky every so often, but then again, nobody's perfect, right? For example, although I'm well-aware that there are quite a few people on this forum who really, really love Utsuho, I would suggest that, while her overall design has plenty of worthwhile inspiration to it, I'm not the biggest fan of her schoolgirl motif or the unexplainable control rod attached to her arm that virtually came from out of thin air in canon, especially considering that her best friend, Rin, has a much more appropriate color scheme and style of dress for the area in which they live, in my honest opinion~
I believe that he's referring to color luminosity, such as with the gradual changes from light to dark and vice versa~
I think this is a fair point. Illustrations can cover all kinds of styles, though, not just realism with regards to proportion, values and skin tones. I'm sure the style is due in part, as you say, to not have the time to put into character art, but I think it's never been his intention to draw realistically. You can definitely see some major screw-ups in intent in the early Windows games, but I think these have for the most part smoothed out over time to a preferred style, aesthetically speaking, not just in regards to his time frame. The charm, for me, is less about the comedic value and more about ZUN's chosen style of illustration. The familiarity you bring up is also naturally a part of this.
I completely agree; granted, I do find a few of his designs to be a bit clunky every so often, but then again, nobody's perfect, right? For example, although I'm well-aware that there are quite a few people on this forum who really, really love Utsuho, I would suggest that, while her overall design has plenty of worthwhile inspiration to it, I'm not the biggest fan of her schoolgirl motif or the unexplainable control rod attached to her arm that virtually came from out of thin air in canon, especially considering that her best friend, Rin, has a much more appropriate color scheme and style of dress for the area in which they live, in my honest opinion~
e-
(http://i.imgur.com/TbmZH.jpg)
I also kind of dislike Utsuho's design. While individually the parts seem like they should be cool (the red eye on the chest, the giant wings, the starfield cape, etc), in practice they kind of get in each others' way rather than complementing each other. Throw in the rather uninspired generic clothing and giant ribbon for no reason and she just looks kind of weird.
This is what TD Seiga looks like under her clothes.You awful man, remove those immediately.
You awful man, remove those immediately.
You awful man, remove those immediately.If it makes you feel any better, I did my zombie waifu.
I also kind of dislike Utsuho's design. While individually the parts seem like they should be cool (the red eye on the chest, the giant wings, the starfield cape, etc), in practice they kind of get in each others' way rather than complementing each other. Throw in the rather uninspired generic clothing and giant ribbon for no reason and she just looks kind of weird.I pretty much agree. I always thought she was a very busy looking character. however I feel like everything could be fixed with a better color scheme.
The problem with saying it's just his style, though, is that it... isn't.
ZUN's arms, legs, to some degree torsos, and blatantly his faces aren't just that way because of his style - they're that way, and obviously so, because ZUN fundamentally does not understand how to realistically portray anatomical features. That's why instead of proper calves, all of his characters have anaemic sausages attached to their knees. It's why he can't draw a chin to save his life and there's no sense of how his characters' skulls actually sit inside their heads.
I'm not saying that the only right way to do art is to do it realistically, I'm just saying that until you have that fundamental knowledge of form, value and color (of which ZUN only has the latter, and only to a certain degree), you won't be able to stylize in a deliberate, informed way, and mistakes, poor choices and lack of study will be apparent.
Yeah, and what's up with Fred Flintstone? His head is the size of his torso! Homer Simpson's eyeballs are halfway out of their sockets, Ren's legs are way too short to support his torso, and don't even get me started on the Moomins.
You do not need "fundamental knowledge" of anything to produce good art.
... Except it's clear that ZUN isn't trying to make the next Fred Flintstone or Homer Simpson; he's clearly attempting an anime-esque style of illustration. Apples to oranges is all I'm saying.
Er... Yes, one does. "Fundamental knowledge" can account for simply an acute observation of one's surroundings and how they appear from their perspective; the person may not know the terms that apply to such observations, but there clearly needs to be some sort of awareness in one's brain in order to create any sort of art, regardless of others' opinions of the results~
And anime characters are all about proportion, right? This doesn't change what I'm saying - there are countless illustrative works that follow few if any rules of proportion and value.
I'm gonna cut you guys off there.Ah, now I see where you're coming from. This is the kind of artistic prescriptivism that people have been hammering on for centuries, with regards to illustration, music, writing and so forth, and it's just demonstrably false. You do not need "fundamental knowledge" of anything to produce good art. It helps, and it can certainly give you an enriching education on styles and techniques, but they are not prerequisites for "good" art.Er... Yes, one does. "Fundamental knowledge" can account for simply an acute observation of one's surroundings and how they appear from their perspective; the person may not know the terms that apply to such observations, but there clearly needs to be some sort of awareness in one's brain in order to create any sort of art, regardless of others' opinions of the results~
Second, by saying that ZUN shouldn't have to care about--or even be knowledgeable of--such proportions or values that he clearly is, in fact, already aware of and comparing himself to... actually comes across as demeaning his ability a bit, in my honest opinion. Just saying~ :wat:
What? No. This is either deliberately obtuse or just dishonest. Saying that a person does not need to know The Sacred Fundamentals Of Art to produce good art does not demean his drawings in any way, shape or form.I myself is not constituting what good art is. That's completely impossible to quite do.
My entire point is that I am a bit tired of folks who preach from their ivory tower about their being some objective standard for what constitutes "good" art. It's a pointless argument that has been going on for millenia, no matter how many new works come and go, no matter how forms change, no matter how, yes - shocker of shockers - you don't even actually need to know whatever these nebulous "fundamentals" are to end up producing something loved by many, many people. There's always going to be a group of people who treat art like math, insisting that X = X when X can equal toothpick.
ZUN does not need to learn all these, as this are already acquired by his mind already. As again, saying that knowledge is needed, as knowledge can be passed down from influence, and experience.
ZUN has everything of what makes an art. The same goes as what little kindergarten kids doodle, as it is still defined as art, as long as it has one of the fundamentals(again go back to what I said about "minimalists").
You cannot just make good art like that without having something known.
Thing is. There might be no direct "fundamental knowledge" to produce good art, but there is in fact a need of anything you will find knowledgeable to make good art.
Haiku answer
Btw, EoSD Sakuya:Why have I never noticed the ripped sleeves and, more importantly, the blood on her knives?
http://i.imgur.com/TFZ6s.jpg
These are the two of the funniest expressions in the series. I don't understand how someone can hate it :(
Why have I never noticed the ripped sleeves and, more importantly, the blood on her knives?