League of Legends Thread XIII: http://www.twitch.tv/saltyteemo

[Suikama]

Okay so the gold you get from Philo is actually pretty crazy. It gives 2GP10 + roughly 7 GP10 if you soak up every minion for a total of 9GP10, although for some reason when i tested it, its been giving 1 more gold than what's written per missed cs so it's more like 9GP10 for a total of 11GP10 . You won't always be in lane to soak up every cs, but late game you can just soak up the big cash when someone clears a humongous wave. Also you don't get the full brunt of the GP10 until you upgrade it once so for early early game you only get about 5GP10, which is still pretty good considering the old philo stone was 5GP10 at it's best.
With 3GP10 runes and 1.5GP10 masteries, you can upgrade your baby philo into a philo after the 4:30 mark, and that's not even including the other gold masteries or any potential cs or assist/kills you may get. So basically guaranteed on your first back unless you get shit on super hard.

Assuming you always get the cannon or melee minions with the targon passive, the item gives roughly 8-9GP10 and that increases as minion bounty increases. This is pretty easy to pull off since the 200 HP exceute is pretty strong so even if you suck at last hitting like me its still easy to get. Even if you only get casters it's still equal to 4.66GP10 and it rises as the game goes on an minions are worth more. This item also has the advantage of giving the most gold right away for early game since the other items need to be upgraded once to get the full gold generation power.

Kages give 4GP10 + anywhere from 0-16GP10 :V, but its likely to be on the lower end in a real game. from lolbots testing i've gotten roughly 3-5GP10 from poking. If you're really aggressive early game though you can grab a fair amount of gold and then quickly start buying real items to stomp with. Funny enough you will get more gold if the jungler comes and tries to push your tower down 3v2 :V Also if your aas are weaker so you dont force the enemy out of lane :V


Now all these extra gold and new build paths opens up the possibility of more unconventional supports. AP supports that people loved to spam before like Lux and Annie can grab Kages and can potentially pull in enough gold to have a decent build if they can play well even without kill stealing everything. Weird comps like lee sin panth botlane dunk combo can try both getting targons so they can share cs between the two inbetween dunks and they also enjoy the hp regen a lot. And even Teemo can get kages and... uh... er actually no nevermind forget that >_>

[Mr. Sacchi]

Question: Are we actually getting new items aside from support stuff? Or are supports getting all the love?

Because I seriously havewn't seen a single change that wasn't directed at supports or junglers, aside from masteries and generic stuff like that.

[Keychain]

Question: Are we actually getting new items aside from support stuff? Or are supports getting all the love?

Because I seriously havewn't seen a single change that wasn't directed at supports or junglers, aside from masteries and generic stuff like that.

Other than a lot of new item icons for various items, I think that's it.

[Garlyle]

I think the majority is aimed at Supports and Junglers this time, yes.

There's some tweaks to other items though that may be used by other lanes or roles (Last Whisper and Void Staff are supposed to become penetration only applicable to bonus Armor/MR so they're more of an actual counter) but nothing too huge?

[Raikaria]

Other than a lot of new item icons for various items, I think that's it.

This was basically true of S3 as well; and it kinda failed at it's goal. A few items got reworked and became usable [See: Black Cleaver] but there wasn't really anything NEW; except Twin Shadows for someone like TF.

Anyway; I've been thinking a bit about the new jungle. Both the effects of the increased gold flow; the smite changes; and the visibility changes.

Aside from the obvious; like: 'Evelynn will be the goddess of ganks' and 'Shyvana is going to get nerfed pretty quickly'; I've been thinking about champions you don't really think of as junglers now; who could be good in the jungle with the S3 changes.

===
Akali - Her clear isn't slow. She has both AoE [E] and single target [Q]; although I'm not an Akali expert, or even a player, so idk if it's better to level Q or E first. [I know you go Q-E-?-W; and W is debatable on jungle Akali]

The increased gold/XP already helps Akali a lot; because she is an assassin who needs to snowball. She also has sustain from her passive; and not needing mana helps too.

However; Akali doesn't care too much about visibility when she is Level 6. In fact; if she knows where wards are; she can use her W to make them give less early warning as well. This is the case because while most junglers have 1 dash; if any; thus making it very difficult to gank characters with mobility; especially if they see you coming; Akali at Level 6 can have up to THREE dashes; and Flash.

In fact; if Akali gets a kill/assist with her gank; she can then roam and gank another lane quite easily; or return to farming until she has three charges again. The threat of a roaming; always MiA Akali is comparable to the difference in threat a midlane Evelynn would have. If Eve is mid you know where she is; if she vanishes you have to put your guard up; but if she is JUNGLE; then she's always MiA; which puts huge map pressure. The same is true of Akali.

Basically:
More gold = Yay for Akali
3 800 range dashes = she dosen't really care about you perma-warding
More gold + Being one of the better gankers under warded conditions due to 3 dashes = more snowball
More snowball = This is why you play Akali anyway

Fiora - OK; so she's not great in lane; and she needs a load of gold. Oh wait the jungle actually gives gold now and Fiora can clear pretty fast with her sheer AA damage and Wriggles is literally a godsend for her.

And her Lv 6 ganks are actually a threat; since Blade Waltz Rank 1's single-target damage before the ratio is 320; but since you'll have at least 15 bonus AD from your W; that makes it really 356 base damage; and that's before runes; masteries and items as well as the damage from Lunge [0.6 Bonus AD per hit] or autoattacks.

Seriously; people who claim Fiora has no burst; you're wrong. Fiora's Lv 6 is one of the highest damage Lv 6's in the entire game.

In fact Fiora's pre-6 ganks are not bad either. She can gap close from up to 1,200 range away with Q [Minion -> Champion] and then use Burst of Speed + Red Buff to stick pretty well. Certainly better than Shyvana, Warwick, or Udyr.

Kayle - OK; I play this a bit already. Kayle needs items; and mainly clears through AA's, and scales with attack speed, so Wriggles is a great item on her with the changes.

Combine this with three things:
1: Kayle is a ranged ganker; something which is very rare
2: Intervention makes Kayle the best towediver in the game bar Tryndamere; and it's only better since she can give it to whoever she's helping instead [Which; ironically; could be a Tryndamere]
3: Kayle has a ranged slow and a haste+heal.

And her ganks are actually pretty decent. Her clear is fast too after she has a couple of levels.

Jinx - As it is Jinx is completely broken right now; including in the jungle. And she's gonna get even more stupid.

Wriggles + Pow-Pow = AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 100 damage per hit; stupid AS; and 40% extra gold? Ladies and Gentlemen; meet THE powerfarmer of the jungle. And it's a CARRY. I fully expect Jinx to be able to surpass the gold she gets in a solo lane in the jungle.

But wait; it gets worse. Jinx can apply a 30~70% slow which also reveals you [So you can't brush juke] from 1,500 range. She can literally gank you from off the screen. 30% is all she really needs because of her E; freeing her up to max Q for speedfarming with 130% bonus AS + Wriggles. Wards don't help when Jinx can C.C you almost as soon as they see her.

Speaking of E; did I mention she can then follow up this 1,500 range 30% slow by laying down a 1.5 second AoE snare in your escape path; so you either have to walk around and get shot; or get snared and die?

And did I mention she has a gobal ult which is an execute? She doesn't even have to leave the jungle to gank you!

Jinx jungle is going to be completely obnoxious.

In fact; if they do not change Jinx before the S4 patch; I will be maining Jinx jungle.

Speaking of ADC's in the jungle:

Twitch:

Farms slower than Jinx but still worships the Wriggle's. But can bypass wards completely with Ambush. And being able to bypass wards when everyone has free wards? Kinda a big deal.

[Mr. Sacchi]

Wriggle's isn't really all that good as it is right now though. It gives almost zero combat stats and is only really good for the jungle itself, which means that you'll need a second item to do SOMETHING in midgame teamfights while everyone else at that point should have 2 items while you just have one.

Wriggle's would only start being really good after it pays for itself, but you would need to farm up 4500 gold to have the 40% bonus pay for the entirety of wriggle's. And that's purely from jungle monsters. Even now the jungle doesn't exactly give an astronomical amount of gold either so it would take a pretty long time of pure farming to justify a wriggle's. Once you consider the fact that during that time:

-Your team will have no ganks.
-Your teammates will be ganked.
-You can be very easily invaded.
-And after midgame starts the jungle is of the entire team and not just the jungler's. (This combined with the fact that you actually have to farm up and buy wriggle's and stuff.)

Combine every single factor and suddenly wriggle's just doesn't sound all that good anymore. Even if the game somehow becomes a farmfest after the clusterfuck of everythinghappeningatonce that Season 3 was, it will still take a pretty long time to justify a wriggle's.

Also, they changed Youmu's icon and it now no longer looks like Hakurouken nor Roukanken, and doesn't even really look like a Katana so RIP most of the touhou reference ;_;

[Cadmas]

My brother is jungling poppy in gold 3.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/22190108#history

[Raikaria]

Wriggle's isn't really all that good as it is right now though. It gives almost zero combat stats and is only really good for the jungle itself, which means that you'll need a second item to do SOMETHING in midgame teamfights while everyone else at that point should have 2 items while you just have one.

Wriggle's would only start being really good after it pays for itself, but you would need to farm up 4500 gold to have the 40% bonus pay for the entirety of wriggle's. And that's purely from jungle monsters. Even now the jungle doesn't exactly give an astronomical amount of gold either so it would take a pretty long time of pure farming to justify a wriggle's. Once you consider the fact that during that time:

-Your team will have no ganks.
-Your teammates will be ganked.
-You can be very easily invaded.
-And after midgame starts the jungle is of the entire team and not just the jungler's. (This combined with the fact that you actually have to farm up and buy wriggle's and stuff.)

Combine every single factor and suddenly wriggle's just doesn't sound all that good anymore. Even if the game somehow becomes a farmfest after the clusterfuck of everythinghappeningatonce that Season 3 was, it will still take a pretty long time to justify a wriggle's.

Firstly; you sell Wriggles later. You only actually need to farm up 1/4 of Wriggle's cost to break even.  Bear in mind it gives an exponential increase in goldflow. More AS amplified the passive extra damage. The extra damage speeds up the clear. The sped-up clear is enhanced by the 40% extra gold flow. So don't just look at the 40% extra gold from the passive; but also the increased GPM from the simple fact that you're clearing BUTTLOADS faster.

Secondly; armor + AS is hardly 'no combat stats'; especially with the combat stats of other jungle items reduced.

Thirdly; ganking is going to be a lot harder with everyone having Trinket Wards. Combined with the increased goldflow from the jungle and mobility creep in general; and farming the jungle is going to be a lot more feasable. Ganking junglers; unless they are Rammus/Shaco/Eve/Twitch/Nocturne; won't have anywhere near the same impact as before; simply because you can always see them coming! [Yes there's a 1 min downtime but you place the ward when your side is pushing; you can go back during the 1 min downtime; and that's 1 min out of 3; and the jungler can't be everywhere in that 1 min]

Fourthly; the jungle isn't supposed to belong to everyone else; especially if you get more gold than the rest of your team for farming it. It's better resource allocation to give the gold to the guy who gets 40% extra than the guy who doesn't. Hell; even Blue Buff is being changed to be less attractive to midlaners. [Athenes gives 20% CDR; Blue is only 10].

Finally; let's compare this to lane gold:

Large camps usually give ~50 gold on average; especially when you count the Wright. So that's just over the average 2 minions will give you. Maybe 2.5; depending on how early the game is.

There are 4 large camps every 50 seconds; so that's ~200 gold; a little more counting the small camps.

With perfect CS'ing; there are 12 creeps a minuite; which will give not too much more than 200 gold.

With Wriggle's 40% boost to gold from monsters it is perfectly possible for junglers gold flows to actually be greater than that of laners if they are doing full clears. You argue about invasions; but the thing is; many invade junglers will be per-ocupided... farming their own jungles.

[gammaraptor]

Been a while since I last posted here, managed to get to Silver I at end of season, I hit my promo series 5 times but lost, so I ran out of time to hit Gold, still pretty satisfied with myself considering that I was sitting in Silver V  3 weeks ago. Never thought I'd do this but I'm probably going to main support now, I had 99 games played as leona out of around 300, around 57% winrate.

Anyways, pretty excited for next season support, face of the mountain or whatever it's called looks like it was seriously made for leona, Health, CDR, and gold income. Dare I say it's almost as good as HoG?

[Garlyle]

This was basically true of S3 as well; and it kinda failed at it's goal. A few items got reworked and became usable [See: Black Cleaver] but there wasn't really anything NEW; except Twin Shadows for someone like TF.

Sightstones, Liandry's Torment, Muramana & Seraph's Embrace, Statikk Shiv, Ravenous Hydra, Blade of the Ruined King, Boots Enchantments, Machete & Spirit Stones - just to name the ones that we do see with some level of common; Twin Shadows, Runaan's Hurricane, Shard of True Ice, Mikhael's Crucible, Ohmwrecker, Runic Bulwark (now gone again), Banner of Command, Mercurial Scimitar, Zephyr for less-frequently seen ones.  Nevermind items that barely resembled their original existance like Sword of the Divine or Eleisa's Miracle, or items removed such as Force of Nature, Regrowth Pendant, and Heart of Gold.

I'm not pretending all of the item changes or new items were all fantastic/successful, but the s3 preseason was like running a wrecking ball through the game's inventory that left extremely little without at least noticable changes.  S4's item changes, though significant in three specific areas (Gold gen items revamped, Trinkets, and Jungling items), are definitely very much more focused in their targetting instead of wider scope changes.


On another note: I watched a 70 minute game on Salty Teemos this morning while at work, in which an Ezreal built, in order - Trinity Force, Boots, Rabaddon's, another Rabaddon's, Zeke's, Archangel's Staff, sold Zeke's for Lich Bane, sold boots for Bloodthirster, and then sold the Lich Bane for another Rabaddon's.

Bronze V is a special kind of what.

[gammaraptor]

Sightstones, Liandry's Torment, Muramana & Seraph's Embrace, Statikk Shiv, Ravenous Hydra, Blade of the Ruined King, Boots Enchantments, Machete & Spirit Stones - just to name the ones that we do see with some level of common; Twin Shadows, Runaan's Hurricane, Shard of True Ice, Mikhael's Crucible, Ohmwrecker, Runic Bulwark (now gone again), Banner of Command, Mercurial Scimitar, Zephyr for less-frequently seen ones.  Nevermind items that barely resembled their original existance like Sword of the Divine or Eleisa's Miracle, or items removed such as Force of Nature, Regrowth Pendant, and Heart of Gold.

I'm not pretending all of the item changes or new items were all fantastic/successful, but the s3 preseason was like running a wrecking ball through the game's inventory that left extremely little without at least noticable changes.  S4's item changes, though significant in three specific areas (Gold gen items revamped, Trinkets, and Jungling items), are definitely very much more focused in their targetting instead of wider scope changes.

Yeah, S3 changed a lot about the game, gp5 meta in general died, tear items created blue build, and the new black cleaver (league of cleaversssss) along botrk created the monster known as Zed and hence the assassin meta. Homeguard created a bunch of hilarity around rammus, and made defending and map mobility a lot easier. Bulwark (RIP) and cdr items created CDR junglers.

I'm kinda excited as to how they're trying to make supports not have to be overburdened with wards and near zero income, but I will for sure miss dropping tons of wards, and now low elo and ranked in general will be plagued with lack of vision because I bet people will still not buy wards and blame the support

[theshirn]

The best part about saltyteemo is that there are almost always at least two hurricanes per game and at least three people without boots.

e: even better when they're on the same person

[Suikama]

>3 hurricane poppy
>still has 7 kills

[Raikaria]

I'm addicted to SaltyTeemo. It's like drugs watching people this bad and how they win/throw/fail to achieve anything for 30 mins.

Also I saw the 3 Hurricane Poppy too.

Also something I've noticed at this level:

You're lucky to see more than 2 durability items per team.

[theshirn]

now yi and this guy can duel honorably with their hanzo steel

[Cadmas]

Finally another Samurai.

[Raikaria]

now yi and this guy can duel honorably with their hanzo steel

I find it interesting that everyone is expecting it to be the guy that the brother is talking about the not the narrator himself.

But yeah would you look at that ANOTHER EVIL IONIAN MAYBE.

We only had the last three Ionians being evil [Varus; Syndra; Zed] to show the dark side of Ionia. Can't we have another... Ionian Ionian?

At this rate we're gonna have more Evil Ionians than Evil Zaunites.

[hyorinryu]

I dunno if I would count Varus as evil. He seems more "tragic hero" to me.

[Raikaria]

I dunno if I would count Varus as evil. He seems more "tragic hero" to me.

Well it's only a mater of time until he is... whatever the evil in the pit is.

[Cadmas]

Maybe then he'll be cool.

[Suikama]

but until then he's lulu's son

[Raikaria]

Fiddlesticks:

'SCREW THE RULES I'M 262 ELO'

[Garlyle]

Fiddlesticks:

'SCREW THE RULES I'M 262 ELO'

One boot per foot

[theshirn]

so I just killed an annie after losing an ARAM

um

[Widermelonz]

I totally forgot Zeke's Herald exists, I'm such a scrub.

[Cadmas]

You lost cause all didn't take teleport >: 3

[Suikama]

I totally forgot Zeke's Herald exists, I'm such a scrub.

imo support ashe should just max CDR and mana regen to spam arrows and slows because there's no way you'll ever be doing damage. Normal Ashe with farm's damage sucks so without farm you won't be hurting shit with your autos.

but yeah zekes would have been good for that teamcomp :V

[Garlyle]

Literally just won my team an ARAM game by being Udyr because I pushed right through the enemy team and they were like "eh it's just udyr" and while a big 5v4 erupted in midlane I trashed their nexus

 :3

[Cadmas]

Normal Ashe with farm's damage sucks so without farm you won't be hurting shit with your autos.

I think you're thinking of ezeal. Ashe's aa's tend to 3-shot people late game.

[Suikama]

every champ in the game can deal a ton of damage with IE+PD+BT+LW

ashe's base damage though sucks because she has no passive buffs at all aside from one free crit

maybe if you rush IE with support ashe you can hurt things but its kiiinda expensive :V