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Archive for older threads. They won't be deleted.
Miscellaneous Questions Thread #1 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,3947.0.html)
Miscellaneous Questions Thread #2 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8344.0.html)
※ Welcome to the Miscellaneous Questions thread! ※
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If those sites and links fail to give what you are looking for, then please post your query here. If you as a question at one point and it doesn't get answered in a significant span of time, please don't hesitate to ask again. We may not have been able to answer the question at that time, but our knowledge has likely changed since then. If you feel that your question is being ignored, rest assured that it is not; we simply do not have an answer for you.
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A helpful community is worth endless gold. Thank you for showing your time and effort and helping out each other.
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Okay first question.
What's the difference between bakeneko, sawarineko and nekomata?
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Searching for bakaneko's picture, I found a sentence on Wiki saying nekomata is a bakeneko with doubled tail. Good.
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Oh my. Already found an answer. There are three ways for a cat to become an youkai named "bakeneko".
1. To reach age of 13 years.
2. To reach weight of 1 kan (=3,75kg).
3. To have a long tail. In this case, this tail is doubled, and result has additional name "nekomata".
So, and "Sawarineko" is the special name for Tsubasa Hanekawa (http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4137/4932193354_5cd117eb57_b.jpg)'s youkai form, literally meaning "bad cat".
I'll left it there for your general education. :3
<Tengukami> Hey there, if you have something new to add, just edit your post; we don't do double-posting 'round there here parts. Thanks!
Okay.
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Yes, Chen's title is Black Cat of Bad Omens. So, you can derive that Chen is a cat youkai.
I am aware that title does not mean species, but you can derive from their title what type of youkai they may be.
Titles may be misleading.
"The Girl of Knowledge and Shade". "The Unmoving Great Library". Those titles don't say that Patchy is a magician specializing on elementary magic.
No one of Sakuya's titles (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Character_Titles#Perfect_Cherry_Blossom) mentions her time/space abilities.
I can suggest that Kurenai China Meiling is a warrior who had gained control of Chi that was enough to be turned into a youkai. So, she's a "warrior". ninja lol
There actually is a difference between おう and おお, as well as えい and ええ, just to mention.
Okay, if you say this. I see your Japanese knowledge is better than "first ten of lessons" that is mine. :3
And I sincerely thought Japanese don't catch difference between them. Stop.
And actually there's difference between を and お, じ and ぢ etc? Oh my.
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Yuuka has a title, her title is Flower Master of the Four Seasons. So, we can assume she is a flower youkai.
Same deal with Yukari, her title is Youkai of Boundaries, among other titles. So, we can assume she is a boundary youkai.
Meiling has a sad title, Chinese Girl. So, unless chinese youkai is a type of youkai, yeah, she is an unknown youkai type.
But Yuuka isn't a flower youkai and Yukari isn't a boundary youkai. They're both just youkai. Saying that Yuuka is a flower youkai is like saying that Reimu is an armpit miko.
Their titles may give clues to their powers, but their powers don't necessarily make them a "type" of youkai.
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OOPS
I have a question, I heard that once that the PC-98 series and the Windows were on different timelines and where not in the 'same' Gensokyo. But this proves false when in PCB stage 3, Alice easks either Marisa or Raymoo if they remember her. Are they on the same Gensokyo?
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I don't believe there's a solid answer one way or the other. That's one piece of evidence supporting same-universe, though it could equally be explained away if you tried. The main reason (I think) some people believe they aren't is simply how many PC-98 characters are missing. But again, that's equally explainable as "they're busy elsewhere now."
Personally I go with same-universe. There are some inconsistencies, but overall it works well enough - even the humans' (apparent) ages seem to carry over properly, (with the exception of HRtP, where Reimu looks about 15 years older than in SoEW).
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I don't believe there's a solid answer one way or the other. That's one piece of evidence supporting same-universe, though it could equally be explained away if you tried. The main reason (I think) some people believe they aren't is simply how many PC-98 characters are missing.
Which is itself explained by ZUN, who in an interview said that these characters were now "elsewhere". And since he never said the PC-98 world is in a totally different timeline, I think the default explanation is that they are on the same timeline; it's just that most of the cast from PC-98 aren't coming back.
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Strange. I had read on touhouwiki that ZUN said there are two different Gensokyos.
with the exception of HRtP, where Reimu looks about 15 years older than in SoEW
Maybe HRtP happened far after other events? Or it is old Hakurei Miko.
But this proves false when in PCB stage 3, Alice easks either Marisa or Raymoo if they remember her. Are they on the same Gensokyo?
We can say that there was events in new Gensokyo that are similar to PC-98 ones.
Could it be Yukari's/Keine's powers?
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But Yuuka isn't a flower youkai and Yukari isn't a boundary youkai. They're both just youkai.
Their titles may give clues to their powers, but their powers don't necessarily make them a "type" of youkai.
Exactly. There's been many theories about Yuuka and Yukari, a few of them being that Yuuka may have been a flower in the past who slowly turned into a humanoid youkai and that Yukari is the humanoid version of a gap. (...It sounds kinda weird, I know) In the end, they're youkais with flower/gap related abilities, the same way Meiling is a youkai with chi related abilities.
Saying that Yuuka is a flower youkai is like saying that Reimu is an armpit miko.
I would've said ''Flying Miko'', but yeah, the point still stands.
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Titles may be misleading.
"The Girl of Knowledge and Shade". "The Unmoving Great Library". Those titles don't say that Patchy is a magician specializing on elementary magic.
No one of Sakuya's titles mentions her time/space abilities.
Titles are a description of the character in question. The title describes the character. The "great unmoving library" describes that Patchouli does not move often and this is verified in games. Sakuya's title does the same, it describes her.
Titles may tell us what the character's abilities are, but it doesn't have to, that is not what it is for. Their abilities is what tells us what abilities a character has.
But Yuuka isn't a flower youkai and Yukari isn't a boundary youkai. They're both just youkai. Saying that Yuuka is a flower youkai is like saying that Reimu is an armpit miko.
Their titles may give clues to their powers, but their powers don't necessarily make them a "type" of youkai.
No, their abilities tell you what powers they have.
Their title give you a description of who they are. As you can tell from all the titles in Touhou, it gives you a brief description of whoever has that title.
That said, youkai, unlike humans are descriptions of things, often times things that people want an explanation on. Youkai also come in a very vast category, including, but not limited to flowers, dolls, gaps, fire, etc. Any title that describes a youkai would imply that the youkai is of that type, unless already stated otherwise, as this would be a judgement call. This is because as already mentioned, a youkai is a description of a phenomenon or a thing.
Now, Yuuka and Yukari have titles that describe who they are and therefore you can conclude that they are that type of youkai. This is because, as I already said, a youkai is a description of a phenomenon or thing.
Strange. I had read on touhouwiki that ZUN said there are two different Gensokyos.
Nope. You most likely read wrong. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN/ZUN%27s_E-mails. Zun explains about PC-98. The characters are around, but they may not be the same.
We can say that there was events in new Gensokyo that are similar to PC-98 ones.
As far as PC-98 events, you should just ignore it.
Could it be Yukari's/Keine's powers?
Neither of them are that strong, you are overestimating them. Keine cannot even hide history for Yukari.
There's been many theories about Yuuka and Yukari
I am not talking about theories, I am talking about the nature of youkai.
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Titles are a description of the character in question. The title describes the character. The "great unmoving library" describes that Patchouli does not move often and this is verified in games. Sakuya's title does the same, it describes her.
Titles may tell us what the character's abilities are, but it doesn't have to, that is not what it is for. Their abilities is what tells us what abilities a character has.
Let's be serious, titles are meant to be pretty and give a nice presentation to the character. Seriously, if we're going to consider titles as pure proofs? Then Marisa simply doesn't exist because she's a being made of dreams and magic. RED dreams and magic.
That said, youkai, unlike humans are descriptions of things, often times things that people want an explanation on. Youkai also come in a very vast category, including, but not limited to flowers, dolls, gaps, fire, etc. Any title that describes a youkai would imply that the youkai is of that type, unless already stated otherwise, as this would be a judgement call. This is because as already mentioned, a youkai is a description of a phenomenon or a thing.
Now, Yuuka and Yukari have titles that describe who they are and therefore you can conclude that they are that type of youkai. This is because, as I already said, a youkai is a description of a phenomenon or thing.
''Youkai'' means supernatural creature. It's usually is a phenomenon or a thing, but it's also ''everything that isn't human'' in gensokyo. Hell, Yuuka can be Hulk who just happens to like flowers and has flower related abilities. Reimu can fly, yet she isn't a flying youkai miko human whatever. She's just a human with a special ability.
Rumia's official name is the Youkai of Twilight. Are her powers even remotely associated with the actual Twilight? Not really, she can make some places dark like nights, while twilight is more of a sunset; Thus, she can be considered both a twilight youkai and a night youkai. I know the twilight is the part of the day where darkness arrives, but it's not *night* yet, which is what Rumia's powers compare to.
Another example; Alice is a magician youkai that uses dolls; Every single of her titles pretty much talk about her abilities at puppetry. She's canonically a puppetry nut. That doesn't make her a puppeteer youkai, she's still a magician. Furthermore, I have yet to see Alice use non doll-related magic.
Sakuya! She's described as ''human that seems to have lived for a while now and has weird time stopping abilities''. Her race is still human, despite her straying ridiculously far from the term itself; She was scolded by Shikeiki for being cold toward humans, too. She can be called a time-stopping maid just like Yuuka can be a flower youkai; The true, official races are still human and youkai.
I am not talking about theories, I am talking about the nature of youkai.
There is no canonical proofs of anything we've even discussed so far other than titles, which are stated as being almost played for laughs. I don't see how random theories are that different from our current debate.
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Well, it would be a huge pain to try to bring in older characters all the time. They?d show up, and everyone would be, "Where have you been all this time?!" It?d be weird to fit them into the story. And, I?d rather make new characters. Of course, I won?t say they?ll never show up again ? Hm, Genjii? Well, Reimu can fly, so she doesn?t need him anymore. :beer: He?s kind of a Master Roshi character. But he?s a turtle, and turtles are long-lived. He?s probably peacefully living out his days in a pond behind the shrine.
Basically, [Yuki and Mai] are whatever-works types, so they might not be dead. I generally have no comment regarding
the PC-98 games. Please ignore them just as one can ignore derivative works. :-) (note this doesn't mean "pc-98 is not canon")
Q: With the new series (EoSD and on), has the whole setting been swept clean?
A: Consider that the newest work (PCB) is basically the most detailed and correct. Basically, with the stuff before EoSD, when considering the setting to be nonexistent even if the world's appearance is the same, you should still be able to enjoy the later works.
Of course, nothing in particular has changed.
There is no need to say that the setting doesn't exist just because it hasn't been mentioned. Instead, think of it as if only one part of it becomes an issue in the games.
there are more but idgaf, basically pc-98 exists but you might as well consider it nonexistent since it isn't relevant to anything in the newer games so please don't dig stuff up from it and pretend it holds water in the context of newer information because seriously it doesn't, so stop thinking so hard about it
SXS: Youkai are not necessarily descriptions of anything, they are simply beings that are not categorized as anything else. Fairies would be your manifestations of nature. I'm not sure why you keep arguing that youkai have to be described as a "type" of youkai when it's pretty clear that youkai isn't a descriptive label by any means. I mean seriously:
There are many types of youkai with extremely varied powers. Some races have a great number that are all categorized under a certain name, while others can be as few as a single member.
These unique youkai are not called by whatever individual species they may be, but simply "youkai."
Many of the youkai in Gensokyo fall into this "youkai" section.
It might be confusing, but youkai as a race is similar to the "Others" section of a graph. I suppose there are quite a few graphs where "Others" is the largest category.
"Flower youkai" just means Yuuka is a youkai that deals with flowers. "Gap youkai" just means Yukari is a youkai associated with gaps. "Nekomata" is actually a thing and therefore Chen is a youkai and a nekomata, but you might as well say she's a black cat youkai. Murasa is a funyuurei and you could say a "shipwreck youkai". Alice is a magician and you could say a "dollmaker youkai".
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@Ikari: I am assuming you have no idea what youkai are. Your replies don't make any sense.
A youkai, by its nature, is a description of a phenomenon or thing. Rumia is a darkness youkai, because she has something to do with the darkness. Yuuka is a flower youkai, because she has something to do with flowers, as already mentioned in her title. Yukari is a boundary youkai, because she has something to do with boundaries.
Reimu can fly, yet she isn't a flying youkai miko human whatever. She's just a human with a special ability.
Why are you comparing humans to youkai? They aren't the same. As I said and I will repeat this, a character's title is a description of the character.
Reimu being able to fly doesn't mean anything, she is not a youkai. Sakuya and Marisa are bad examples, they are not youkai.
That doesn't make her a puppeteer youkai, she's still a magician. Furthermore, I have yet to see Alice use non doll-related magic.
Quite the contrary, it does make her a puppeteer youkai or as Drakums says, dollmaster youkai.
There is no canonical proofs of anything we've even discussed so far other than titles
I repeat, this is not a theory. This is what youkai are.
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@Ikari: I am assuming you have no idea what youkai are. Your replies don't make any sense.
A youkai, by its nature, is a description of a phenomenon or thing. Rumia is a darkness youkai, because she has something to do with the darkness. Yuuka is a flower youkai, because she has something to do with flowers, as already mentioned in her title. Yukari is a boundary youkai, because she has something to do with boundaries.
Why are you comparing humans to youkai? They aren't the same. As I said and I will repeat this, a character's title is a description of the character.
Reimu being able to fly doesn't mean anything, she is not a youkai. Sakuya and Marisa are bad examples, they are not youkai.
Quite the contrary, it does make her a puppeteer youkai or as Drakums says, dollmaster youkai.
I repeat, this is not a theory. This is what youkai are.
Well geez, sorry for not being able to understand your point either. I mean, you just had proof from Drakums that Youkai shouldn't be classified in types, and you keep on insisting they can, should and are. I'm going to assume you have no idea what the term ''youkai'' is either. Looks like we're in the same boat, let's hope Murasa won't sink it!
And yeah, throwing humans in there weren't the best example. I'll give you that.
And... You missed my point about Alice, but I don't really care about that because the magician race in Touhou is pretty much the most ambiguous thing ever. It's a race, it's a job and it's a science. No point in arguing on that.
Yuuka's titles:
Oriental Demon (TH04) (*cough*Youkai*cough*)
Youkai (TH05)
Beauty of Everlasting Darkness (KOG)
Flower Master of the Four Seasons (TH09, PMiSS)
I see one reference to flowers and it's borderline a reference to how seasons don't affect Yuuka's love for flowers.
Yukari's titles:
Mastermind Behind the Spiriting Away (TH07)
Border of Phantasm (TH7.5, TH10.5, TH12.3)
Youkai of Boundaries (TH08, PMiSS, TH11)
Youkai that lurks in the Boundary (TH08 character intros)
Uncanny Smile (TH9.5)
Phantasmal Wedding of the Kitsune / Phantasmal Sunshower* (TH10.5)
Again, she's called a youkai of boundaries ONCE among her 6 titles. If you're going to use titles as proofs, then I can call her the embodiment of the border of phantasm.
Anyway, I'm personally done arguing about that because honestly, it could go on forever. I'll let Drakums take over, he pretty much said in a fantastic way what I've been trying to say but have been unable to due to my lack of vocabulary and ability to expand on my point of views.
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A youkai, by its nature, is a description of a phenomenon or thing. Rumia is a darkness youkai, because she has something to do with the darkness. Yuuka is a flower youkai, because she has something to do with flowers, as already mentioned in her title. Yukari is a boundary youkai, because she has something to do with boundaries.
The thing is that everything you've been saying is more or less correct until you take an extra step and assert youkai must have a type of which it is described by, outside of "youkai". As if said "type" is actually a label of race or species. In some cases it may be, but it is often not the case; the label stems from the actual identification of species, not the other way around. A youkai that actually is a defined species such as a vampire, nekomata, phantom, kappa, oni; these are all subspecies. What you are doing is taking arbitrary labels based on a character's traits and attempting to turn it into an equivalent of a subspecies, when this is patently not the case. I was saying Alice could be called a "dollmaker youkai" because she is a dollmaker and she is a youkai; not because "dollmaker youkai" is some sort of actual identifier that goes above "youkai", and so forth. If I have to say it again, a youkai by nature can be a description of a phenomenon or tradition or tale, but is not necessarily, and in many cases is not. You can call them *label* youkai, but you cannot assert that the label extends beyond simply being a label.
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<text>
This. Someone give this man a medal already and let's get over this argument.
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The thing is that everything you've been saying is more or less correct until you take an extra step and assert youkai must have a type of which it is described by, outside of "youkai". As if said "type" is actually a label of race or species. In some cases it may be, but it is often not the case; the label stems from the actual identification of species, not the other way around. A youkai that actually is a defined species such as a vampire, nekomata, phantom, kappa, oni; these are all subspecies. What you are doing is taking arbitrary labels based on a character's traits and attempting to turn it into an equivalent of a subspecies, when this is patently not the case. I was saying Alice could be called a "dollmaker youkai" because she is a dollmaker and she is a youkai; not because "dollmaker youkai" is some sort of actual identifier that goes above "youkai", and so forth. If I have to say it again, a youkai by nature can be a description of a phenomenon or tradition or tale, but is not necessarily, and in many cases is not. You can call them *label* youkai, but you cannot assert that the label extends beyond simply being a label.
Wait, what? Alice, human or Youkai?
I don't get it already... does it apply to Patchouli the same way?
And I thought they were human all along...
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Wait, what? Alice, human or Youkai?
I don't get it already... does it apply to Patchouli the same way?
And I thought they were human all along...
Alice&Patchy are youkai magicians.
Marisa is human magician.
They have different nature, like Sanae and Suwako, but their abilities are alike (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Magician). E. g. any of them can use any magic they have learnt.
A youkai, by its nature, is a description of a phenomenon or thing.
I'd say they are more likely to be embodiements of human's fear (see Yukari's talk with Kaguya), like gods are embodiements of faith, fairies are embodiements of nature aspects etc. Though, this theory is only one way the General Theory of Magic can be used in Gensokyo.
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edit: lol cut
They're both youkai. In Gensokyo there's a difference between a real magician and a human who uses magic like Marisa. Magicians are youkai, and there are two types: the first type is someone who's born a magician, such as Patchouli. Magicians who are born magicians grow as a human would, along with the limited lifespan, until they use magic that stops their aging, and then they're considered "complete". The second type is a human that has used enough magic or certain kinds of magic, that they can self-sustain by the use of magic. Then, they use similar magic to the natural magicians, and they turn into youkai (or maybe you could say they lose their humanity).
PMiSS describes magicians as "One who has become possessed by magic, such that the one's body itself is powered by magic; this type of youkai is known as a magician. "
Alice was once a human, and the magic that she used when opening her grimoire (or possibly) turned her into a youkai. (Well, she could have been a creation of Shinki, so she might not really have been human, but that's another matter)
Patchouli has no information on whether or not she used to be a human, or if she was somehow born a magician, so she's kind of out of the question.
Byakuren used to be a human, but in studying black magic to stop her from dying and to increase her strength, she became a youkai.
Marisa is just a human that uses magic; she hasn't done anything so extreme that she loses her humanity. Magician is basically her profession.
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You know I have a question regarding Rinnosuke. He is not often discussed though personally I think he is way more mysterious and unexplained than most other characters.
PMiSS mentions he is half-human half youkai. What am I suppose to make of this, is he like Keine? Although Keine is definitely a shape shifter when she enters Hakutaku mode. Additionally, how does one become a half youkai anyway? A wild toss: Could it be that Rinnosuke has obtained half of what Marisa is aiming for (the becoming a Youkai magician thing?)
And logically something unexplained and frequently asked, he worked in the Kirisame antique shop before starting his own. I wonder why?
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Keine was actually a normal human that later turned into a half-youkai according to her PMiSS profile (probably she was bitten by a true were-hakutaku or something), which is why her transformation on the full moon is only partial instead of complete (she only grow horns and a tail instead of becoming a full hakutaku).
I always thought that Rinnosuke was a legitimate hybrid; one parent was human and the other youkai. No clue if that's possible or not in the touhouverse, I don't think it has been discussed yet.
He probably worked in the Kirisame shop for the same reason he has his own now; he likes to interact with antiques and unique objects. He started his own probably so he could choose what to keep and what to sell.
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Keine was actually a normal human that later turned into a half-youkai according to her PMiSS profile (probably she was bitten by a true were-hakutaku or something), which is why her transformation on the full moon is only partial instead of complete (she only grow horns and a tail instead of becoming a full hakutaku).
Oh? Where did you read that exactly? Her PMiSS profile speaks of her as a therianthropy but not how she got it. The footnote mentions:
Incidentally, it's an acquired characteristic.
Although not quite sure whether this implies her transformation characteristic due to the full moon or her becoming a Hakutaku. Assuming it is footnoted behind her full moon mentioning, I would say the former.
I always thought that Rinnosuke was a legitimate hybrid; one parent was human and the other youkai. No clue if that's possible or not in the touhouverse, I don't think it has been discussed yet.
I could vaguely remember the old PMiSS description mentioned he was half-beast half-human before but later on got changed to youkai&human. But unsure, but surely doesn't take away the mysterious shroud around him. CoLA doesn't really make it any easier because it is more Rinnosuke telling his side of the story as citizen of Gensoukyo.
Curse you ZUN.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np1divim63I&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np1divim63I&feature=relmfu)
The first comment says Lily White was originally supposed to be the 4th (of 7) stage boss in PCB. I've never heard of that before, so I'm quite sceptical. Can anybody confirm this?
Also, since the video thread seems to be dead, I'll throw this question in here: Where is the music in this video from? It's incredibly catchy, and I'd assume it's somewhere from PC-98, but I don't know very much about those games or their music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LRstq65X4Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LRstq65X4Q)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np1divim63I&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np1divim63I&feature=relmfu)
The first comment says Lily White was originally supposed to be the 4th (of 7) stage boss in PCB. I've never heard of that before, so I'm quite sceptical. Can anybody confirm this?
No.
Also, since the video thread seems to be dead, I'll throw this question in here: Where is the music in this video from? It's incredibly catchy, and I'd assume it's somewhere from PC-98, but I don't know very much about those games or their music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LRstq65X4Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LRstq65X4Q)
That would be Greenwich in the Sky, from the music-album Magical Astronomy (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Magical_Astronomy). It is not used in any official game.
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7 bosses in itself sounds like total bologna, but granting a character who currently has no dialogue and no extraneous traits a boss position is pretty shifty itself. Mind the post-hoc, but if Lily was supposed to express herself with danmaku then having her as a stage boss doesn't make much sense. That being said, you being skeptical means you can basically ignore the claim until they present evidence, so while I can't confirm this, you can pretty much go along ignoring it.
ON THE OTHER HAND STAGE 4 IS SO LONG THAT YOU MIGHT AS WELL HAVE TWO STAGES DOHOHOHO
(also as you might see i've confronted the guy lol)
As for the video, I find it funny that you link Ghostly Field Club first and then not recognize a song from Magical Astronomy. It's Greenwich in the Sky.
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wait
Koishi's Heart-Punching Adventure updated?
When was this?
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http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/13478199
October 22nd.
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Ahhhh, that was the only one I missed, then. Thanks Drake!
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7 bosses in itself sounds like total bologna, but granting a character who currently has no dialogue and no extraneous traits a boss position is pretty shifty itself. Mind the post-hoc, but if Lily was supposed to express herself with danmaku then having her as a stage boss doesn't make much sense. That being said, you being skeptical means you can basically ignore the claim until they present evidence, so while I can't confirm this, you can pretty much go along ignoring it.
Alright, although there's always the possibility that those traits were added after she was reduced to be the midboss. But heh, Lily being higher than Alice is pretty suspicious in itself.
As for the video, I find it funny that you link Ghostly Field Club first and then not recognize a song from Magical Astronomy. It's Greenwich in the Sky.
Yesterday was the first time I listened to Ghostly Field Club (or any of ZUN's albums, for that matter), but now I know what to listen to next!
Thanks for the answers, guys.
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Lily being higher than Alice
Yeah. And Myoren's janitor is higher than Yuyu-sama. Alice too was a cool (even Extra) boss in MS.
And Alice is a youkai magician while Lily is just a fairy.
Yesterday was the first time I listened to Ghostly Field Club (or any of ZUN's albums, for that matter)
That was my first ZUN's music. Then was in-game EoSD soundtrack. :3
BTW, it isn't Greenwich in the Night Sky? Okay, will know.
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Lily being higher than Alice is pretty suspicious in itself.
ZUN already said that stages bosses appear in is not an indicator of their power level, but I'm sure you aren't serious about what you said.
Just felt like throwing that out...
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Exactly, Kogasa appeared in th12 EXstage as well as th12 stage 2 boss and th13 stage 3 mid boss.
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yeah that was a brainfart on my side
I've always found alice as a stage 3 boss too low anyway.
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I'll actually agree with you on that. She feels more like a Stage 4 Boss.
Even the Prismrivers, the de facto That One Boss for PCB, are easy compared to her. I dunno how that works, or if it's just me, but that's how it feels to me at least.
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That video reminded me of a question I meant to ask. Is there a reason Kana is sometimes drawn with Do Not Enter sings?
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Wow, that was a toughy. From ZUN's old music page (http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/html/music_old.html) which incidentally isn't even connected to the main site anymore, he has an original arrange of Lost Dream, as an archive file. Inside is the M music file and a comment file which reads
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|【 曲名 】| 【 夢消失 〜 Lost Dream 】（オリジナル）
|【 出典 】| 東方夢時空 カナ・アナベラルのテーマ
|【 作曲者名 】| ＺＵＮ（太田順也）
|【 日付 】| 2000/10/15
|【 ファイル名 】| th3_08pmd.lzh
|【必要ドライバ】| P.M.D (KAJAさん制作）
| | PMDWin.dll (C60 さん制作）
|【 転載の可否 】| 基本的に自由とします。但し、メールにて連絡ください。
| | その際、アーカイブ内はいじらないでください。
|【 著作権 】| ＺＵＮ (太田順也）
|【演奏上の注意】| PMDWin (C60さん作)を使用する場合、
| リズム音源の音がでない場合は、2608_*.wavを手に入れて
| 「 SSGドラムと同時にリズム音源を鳴らす」をチェックしてください
| そのほか、Windows で、98エミュレータ等をお使いの場合。
| 86 音源互換（FM６音＋SSG３音＋リズム音源）に設定してください
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
このたびは、ダウンロードしていただきありがとうございます。
東方夢時空より【 夢消失 〜 Lost Dream 】オリジナル版です。
完全に、東方ってことを無視した曲です（笑）
この曲からかなり吹っ切れたみたいで、以降ふぁんたすてぃかな曲調が増えたような
気がする(^^;;
カナのイメージイラストは（キャラを創る前にいつも書いていた(^^;;）、
「道路標識を破壊して後ろ手にもっている、西洋少女」だったりしました。
ではまた次の曲で逢いましょうか ＺＵＮ
曲の感想、リクエスト等はこちら
東方幻想空間 「博麗神社」 http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/
e-Mail zun@big.or.jp
Which says that before Kana was even a character he would draw her sometimes, as a "western girl who destroys things with a signpost held behind her back".
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Question: can Reimu canonically (or commonly among fans) gap/teleport independently? Her warping is only seen in three places I can recall, none of which really convince me one way or the other. SA ReimuA does it, but she's paired with Yukari. IN 4A Reimu does it, but she's hanging out with Yukari in that story as well... though Yukari doesn't seem present when you're fighting her.
The only other is that move in the fighting games, and I dunno if that's enough to go on - I mean, spellcard duels aren't supposed to involve punching each other in the face, but we see that happening there too.
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Wow, that was a toughy. From ZUN's old music page (http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/html/music_old.html) which incidentally isn't even connected to the main site anymore, he has an original arrange of Lost Dream, as an archive file. Inside is the M music file and a comment file which readsWhich says that before Kana was even a character he would draw her sometimes, as a "western girl who destroys things with a signpost held behind her back".
Well holy crap. Thanks, and nice job finding that. Glad to have that mystery solved.
Goldom: She does it in one DS scene as well. Fantasy Dimensional Hole, I think. Actually, according to the wiki, Aya's comment says "Despite being just a human, she can teleport without breaking a sweat."
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Ah, I've never made it that far in DS. Well, good for her. Just flying always seemed a bit weak as a power when every other person in the world can do it as an aside. (Glossing over the "intrinsically undefeatable" part of course).
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If you look at Marisa's Grimoire, you can see that Reimu can sort of teleport. But it isn't really teleport, she sort of warps the space around her.
Here is an excerpt of Divine Spirit ~ Fantasy Seal -Blink-:
Reimu says that "the boundary surrounded by the barrier can't be seen in and of itself, so it appears that there are countless enemies." Is it just looping around a small world? Or maybe it's something like two mirrors facing each other?
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Wow, that was a toughy. From ZUN's old music page (http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/html/music_old.html) which incidentally isn't even connected to the main site anymore, he has an original arrange of Lost Dream, as an archive file. Inside is the M music file and a comment file which readsWhich says that before Kana was even a character he would draw her sometimes, as a "western girl who destroys things with a signpost held behind her back".
So Kana never actually used a sign in PoDD? I thought it was because she used one in the game that fan arts draw her with them.
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Nope, and Zil would have caught it if she did, in the first place. The closest thing is her cutin, which has a big thick line through it (which of course means nothing).
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More discovery about the relation between Mononobe no Moriya and Suwako Moriya!
Summary of points I've more or less covered (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8344.msg909089.html#msg909089) in the previous thread:
-Mononobe no Moriya's name is written 物部守屋.
-In real life, the native god of Suwa and his shrine are both named 洩矢 (pronounced Moreya or Moriya; Moreya is the more ancient pronunciation).
-In real life, the priest family who claims descendancy to Moreya is named 守矢 (Moriya). The current head of the family is a woman named Sanae Moriya.
-The Mononobe clan originated from a completely different region. Their ancestry should have no relation to the Suwa region.
-Obviously, the Moriya clan and the god Moreya dates back to a time much earlier than the person Mononobe no Moriya.
-There was indeed a medieval rumour about Moriya clan being descendants of Mononobe no Moriya.
-In Touhou universe, the shrine is 守矢 and the priest family is called Kochiya (東風谷, "eastern wind valley"), to differentiate them from the real world.
-Suwako's last name is written 洩矢 and pronounced Moriya.
Then I found out:
-There is also a Mt. Moriya in Suwa. Its name is written 守屋.
-Mt. Moriya is the sacred mountain of Suwa. To put it as simply as possible, when we say Kanako and Suwako are goddesses of mountain, they are more specifically goddesses of Mt. Moriya.
-However, there is a shrine at the foot of Mt. Moriya: Shrine of Mononobe no Moriya.
-Not only that, this shrine appears to have some close relationship with Moreya Shrine. For example, its crest is 3 Kashiwa Oak leaves, while Moreya Shrine's crest is one Kashiwa Oak leaf. Some villages seem to treat Moreya Shrine as its branch shrine. (Source (http://yatsu-genjin.jp/suwataisya/sanpo/moreya.htm))
-Many of its relics and rituals are ancient remnants of Mishaguchi worship (Mishaguchi are those serpents controlled by Suwako). (Source (http://seirios2772.blog115.fc2.com/blog-entry-254.html))
-Given the above, the Shrine of Mononobe no Moriya is probably an ancient site of worship, somehow taken over by descendants of Mononobe no Moriya.
And the trail breaks here. Even the Japanese find this fact baffling, and they can't seem to find any further explanation. Did the Mononobe clan seriously take over someone else's sacred mountain, just because it has the same name as one of them?
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So, a question about copyrights, because I'm still a bit confused.
Say, I arranged Septette for the Dead Princess and U.N. Owen was Her? and put them together all nice-like, and I make into a strings piece. Is it legal to have a group perform it, if it's not for profit, and is there a legitimate source I could use to say "It's okay if we play these songs in public?"
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So, a question about copyrights, because I'm still a bit confused.
Say, I arranged Septette for the Dead Princess and U.N. Owen was Her? and put them together all nice-like, and I make into a strings piece. Is it legal to have a group perform it, if it's not for profit, and is there a legitimate source I could use to say "It's okay if we play these songs in public?"
Usually most non-profit uses are allowed, but mostly, Public Use is not allowed. If it was for non-profit use, you should have no problems asking permission from the creator of the music itself. However, if you completely redo the music, as long as it is not similar to the original more than 8% (Or was it 10%, I forgot), you should be fine.
I'd recommend passing it off as your own, since you'd have a HARD time trying to contact ZUN for permission (Even though his email is all in the Touhou games .txt files...)
But if you want to play safe, try to ask for the permission. If you get it, congrats. If you don't... well you'd better not use it.
Usually non-profit use is more lenient on the copyright infringement side.
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Another question about copyright infrigement.
Say I write a book, and it's based in the world of Touhou. It's more of a story full of OC and happens in Gensokyo save for the fact I use 0 Touhou characters in it. Would I have to right to sell it for profit?
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So, a question about copyrights, because I'm still a bit confused.
Say, I arranged Septette for the Dead Princess and U.N. Owen was Her? and put them together all nice-like, and I make into a strings piece. Is it legal to have a group perform it, if it's not for profit, and is there a legitimate source I could use to say "It's okay if we play these songs in public?"
According to his guidelines (http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Yoyo/1736/t-081.html), if your public performance is not for profit, you have no need to contact ZUN.
Preferrably, you should make it clear that "Touhou Project is the creation of Team Shanghai Alice, and this is a derivative work" etc.
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Ran-rii how would you even differentiate non-profit from public, it doesn't make any sense. Contacting ZUN is indeed pretty easy, and while passing it off as your own probably would have zero consequences, that's a pretty deplorable solution and is easily worse than just saying who the author is and that you're playing his songs.
Say I write a book, and it's based in the world of Touhou. It's more of a story full of OC and happens in Gensokyo save for the fact I use 0 Touhou characters in it. Would I have to right to sell it for profit?
Why would you even take advantage of the world of Gensokyo, in that case? I find it incredibly silly that you would avoid using the characters in order to supplement your own and then not bother just going the extra mile and using an original scenario. To directly answer the question, Gensokyo is official content. If you're publishing/selling for profit as mass circulation, you must contact ZUN.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights#Copyright_status.2FTerms_of_Use_of_the_Touhou_Project
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Why would you even take advantage of the world of Gensokyo, in that case? I find it incredibly silly that you would avoid using the characters in order to supplement your own and then not bother just going the extra mile and using an original scenario. To directly answer the question, Gensokyo is official content. If you're publishing/selling for profit as mass circulation, you must contact ZUN.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights#Copyright_status.2FTerms_of_Use_of_the_Touhou_Project
I was asking for the sake of an hypothetical question; it IS silly to use an universe if you re-create the characters. I was just wondering.
Edit: I just read his terms of use and my god, ZUN is a nice guy.
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Just a question...
You know the other sword Youmu has, you know, the Hakurouken, the one that can cause enlightenment...
What happens if you repeatedly slash a human with it? It is said to cause "Slight Discomfort", but it is still a sword, and thus can still kill, yes?
But it is said to slash the hesitation in the person, so if one is slashed by it, one has to be alive to have that effect, yes?
So... what happens?
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Just a question...
You know the other sword Youmu has, you know, the Hakurouken, the one that can cause enlightenment...
What happens if you repeatedly slash a human with it? It is said to cause "Slight Discomfort", but it is still a sword, and thus can still kill, yes?
But it is said to slash the hesitation in the person, so if one is slashed by it, one has to be alive to have that effect, yes?
So... what happens?
A human loses his hesitation and his arm. :V
________
Edit: I just read his terms of use and my god, ZUN is a nice guy.
"Do what you want, but don't empede me from drinking beer."
Something like that.
________
Who is "shikaisen"?
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The th075 profile for Youmu says '両方とも生身の人間を斬ることも出来る。', and was translated to 'both of them can also kill living humans.'
But the translation somehow doesn't seem so right. (I might be wrong about this)
Who is "shikaisen"?
Basically, Seiga, Tojiko, Futo, and Miko are all shikaisen.
Try reading Shikaisen from http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hermit , which comes from the wikipedia article.
For the Touhou version, read the Shikaisen part of http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Mononobe_no_Futo
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What happens if you repeatedly slash a human with it? It is said to cause "Slight Discomfort", but it is still a sword, and thus can still kill, yes?
But it is said to slash the hesitation in the person, so if one is slashed by it, one has to be alive to have that effect, yes?
Since both of Youmu's swords are still swords, it can kill.
As for cutting hesitation, it is more useful to cut a spirit's hesitation, as that will supposedly send them to Nirvana. This is one of the short cuts one can use to go to Nirvana.
I'm not sure if there are any useful effects when used on living humans. I guess cutting hesitation would be useful sometimes.
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Since both of Youmu's swords are still swords, it can kill.
As for cutting hesitation, it is more useful to cut a spirit's hesitation, as that will supposedly send them to Nirvana. This is one of the short cuts one can use to go to Nirvana.
I'm not sure if there are any useful effects when used on living humans. I guess cutting hesitation would be useful sometimes.
...And Youmu decides to stop hesitating whether to let Yuyuko eat Myon by cutting Myon with the Hakurouken...
Cutting both hesitation and also stopping the problem...
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What is Nirvava?
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What is Nirvava?
Here you go. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nirvana)
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Here you go. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nirvana)
Not the band... :V Lol I meant the Japanese one
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Holy crap how lazy are you? Scroll down the page! It's a Buddhist concept.
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Ehhhhh... I think that I read somewhere that Danmaku battles in gensokyo can't kill anyone? Is that true? If it is true so it can only hurt a little? How its "damage" system works?
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danmaku battles are nonlethal, yes
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules
Whether there's an actual sense of damage or not doesn't really ever matter. Generally it's assumed that danmaku play hurts in a mostly slapstick sort of way, at best.
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Here's one I've never been able to find an answer to (watch someone pull out a super-obvious wiki page with the solution in big letters, but I can't find it):
Given that spellcard rules exist, and that's how you're supposed to do all your fighting... what the heck are nonspells? I mean, they can't be "real" attacks since they still don't kill anyone, but they don't have names or whatnot. I've never heard an explanation, canon or otherwise, about what they are in-world, beyond just being a contrivance to pace the gameplay.
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Danmaku is danmaku. Spell cards are danmaku, but danmaku isn't necessarily in the form of a spell card. There's physical attacks and using gadgets and random objects as well; danmaku is basically just anything you can use as an attack.
Though, the rules are a bit conflicting throughout the series when you consider the games versus manga versus literature. In manga and literature, sometimes spell cards are explicitly declared while sometimes there aren't, but the actual spell card rules dictate that a danmaku game ends when you run out of predefined spells. If you really take everything at face value you could just say "why not use as many non-spell-cards as you want"?
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Well, in a way, it's not uncommon to see in many works the characters attack with magic and stuff (For example, Reimu throwing amulets) and then unleashing a spellcard later on. (Fantasy Seal!) I personally think of the spellcards as being especially powerful, so they limit them with nonspells; Kinda like the Yukari fight in PCB or Mamizou in TD; Imagine her battle with no breather nonspells.
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danmaku battles are nonlethal, yes
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules
Whether there's an actual sense of damage or not doesn't really ever matter. Generally it's assumed that danmaku play hurts in a mostly slapstick sort of way, at best.
Aahhh, in my mind Reimu always had her body cut in two when I die with her in Ran's Ultimate Buddhist :(
Anyway thanks for the answer :(
Well, in a way, it's not uncommon to see in many works the characters attack with magic and stuff (For example, Reimu throwing amulets) and then unleashing a spellcard later on. (Fantasy Seal!) I personally think of the spellcards as being especially powerful, so they limit them with nonspells; Kinda like the Yukari fight in PCB or Mamizou in TD; Imagine her battle with no breather nonspells.
I think that some of Ran's non-spell attacks are harder than her spellcards :V
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I think that some of Ran's non-spell attacks are harder than her spellcards :V
Ditto with Udongein.
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I think that some of Ran's non-spell attacks are harder than her spellcards :V
I think Marisa's spellcards in IN are a total joke yet I lose 2 lives per non-spells. You point is? :wat:
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Another question from the previous thread: What is Sanae's necklace?
Sanae is depicted with a necklace in two instances: UFO and SoPM.
UFO in-game portrait (ZUN) and promotional artwork (alphes) (Click to enlarge):
(http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/4/46/Th12Sanae.png)(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad70/cucuct/forum%20posts/ufo-telephone_card.jpg)
SoPM artwork (Masakichi) (Click to enlarge):
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad70/cucuct/forum%20posts/sanae-necklace.jpg)(http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/thumb/c/c6/ThGKSanae.png/419px-ThGKSanae.png)
Sanae's necklace is probably inspired by necklaces commonly worn by people of Kofun period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofun_period) (3th to 7th century CE).
Man and priestess of Kofun period:
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad70/cucuct/forum%20posts/p234231264-1.jpg)(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad70/cucuct/forum%20posts/p234231264-10.jpg)
Masakichi may have added elements of African and Hmong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_people) necklace design to his artwork.
A Hmong necklace:
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad70/cucuct/forum%20posts/hmong_necklace.jpg)
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Just gotta mention that nobody would really ever even ask that sort of question if ZUN actually drew it in a way that didn't look flimsy and awkward :'D
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No matter who drew it, people would ask "what the heck is that", because it's not something people expected to see on a shrine maiden, medieval or modern.
I've changed the Hmong necklace example to one that's closer to Masakichi's art.
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Okay I'm just full of questions.
I don't know if anyone here can really speak to this one unless one of you worked on the translation patches, but I'll try anyway:
Why do the patches use such abnormal romanization of character names? The in-game titles give us Momizi, Huziwara, Syameimaru, etc etc. I know there are multiple ways to romanize Japanese, so they're valid enough I guess, but why go with such a non-standard method in the first place?
Oh, one other A patch question: I just recently remembered that wayyyy back when I patched everything, one of them offered two different translations, a literal and a localized version. I have no memory which game it was nor which I picked. Anyone know which that's for, and what differences there are?
EDDItttt: I'm an idiot and solved question #1 on my own. I suddenly remembered reading that that other romanization style (I don't recall the names right now, but the one that likes zi over ji and _ya over _ha) is often preferred by native Japanese speakers, and that made me wonder and go check... and yeah, those names are in English text in the original game, it's not the patch that did it. It's just been so long since I ever ran the games unpatched that I forgot. (In other news, good lord even MoF plays hideously without the vpatch! When I first put it in I thought it only really helped 6-8, but since I was just running the Japanese exe directly I discovered that now that I'm so used to it, it's quite noticeable even that late).
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(EDIT: I see now you remembered.)
As a reference, the wiki has a list (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Spelling_discrepancies) of all character name spellings.
The two most prominent methods of romanization are Hepburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization) (e.g. ja, tsu, sha) and Kunrei-shiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunrei-shiki_romanization) (e.g. zya, tu, sya).
Generally speaking, the Hepburn system is easier for Westerners to understand, while Kunrei-shiki is much easier for the Japanese to memorize.
The Japanese government has long established Kunrei-shiki as the standard format of romanization in Japan, except the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which insisted to use Hepburn. That's why Japanese names are spelt with Hepburn on their passports. Despite the government's standardization effort, Hepburn is still very widely used in Japan even today.
In practice, this means Japanese people born post-war are first taught Kunrei-shiki in elementary school as part of compulsory education, and learn Hepburn later by themselves.
When it comes to Touhou, ZUN himself generally writes in Kunrei-shiki, but may slip into Hepburn from time to time.
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Where the heck is Mystia supposed to be from?
We can pin down where the other European-sounding characters are from but Mystia is an anomaly.
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Where the heck is Mystia supposed to be from?
We can pin down where the other European-sounding characters are from but Mystia is an anomaly.
No.
Greek siren turned into a sparrow.
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danmaku battles are nonlethal, yes
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Reimu_Hakurei
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules
Whether there's an actual sense of damage or not doesn't really ever matter. Generally it's assumed that danmaku play hurts in a mostly slapstick sort of way, at best.
At least strong enough to knock the ribbon out of Reimu's hair, or tear the dress sleeve of a mischievous fairy!
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No.
Greek siren turned into a sparrow.
...!
That's just plain gnarly. :]
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http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Koishi_Komeiji
And thats all? I thinked she's a bit more... existing. And now I'm wondered, how that transculent character can be an extra stage boss with more than 10 spellcards?
Didn't ZUN complicated it too much?
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But she does exist. People just don't perceive her.
How the heroines managed to fight her is perplexing though. Sure, they might have known she existed because of Satori, and even Koishi having a danmaku fight is imaginable, but how she was even seen and communicated with (and then being able to remember it, possibly) is sort of uhhhh? Not to skip straight to lolakyu, but how she even gets the information about Koishi is questionable. The only main source she would have is Satori, but Akyu is a racist scaredy-cat and doesn't want to go down and talk to her directly either.
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I find that trying to make sense of such things causes headaches.
Well, I would think that either Akyu is an unreliable narrator, or Koishi's article in SoPM was originally written before the events of SA...or both?
SA hinted at the possibility of Koishi's 3rd eye opening again though, if that even means anything.
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I'd guess that Koishi actually heard form her sister (either by talking or through her subconscious thoughts about them, perhaps) about the humans that went to the underground, got interested (as much as she can be interested in anything) and dropped her "subconscious altering" field when facing the protagonists.
Akyuu probably knows about Koishi because Marisa, who helped with this edition of the book, knows about her and told Akyuu about her.
Also, I'd think that even if Koishi's 3rd eye is opening again, it hasn't really opened yet and it's mostly something only she herself would be able to notice, so it makes sense that it isn't mentioned in her Symposium article.
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Akyuu probably knows about Koishi because Marisa, who helped with this edition of the book, knows about her and told Akyuu about her.
I just expressed how weird it is that nobody is supposed to perceive or communicate with her and/or remember an encounter with her, yet Akyu gets this information without talking to Satori. If Marisa was indeed the source, how she remembers this or suddenly knows all about Koishi is questionable. The only thing I can think of is that someone else learned of this information from Satori and then passed it to Akyu, or it came from someone else who knew Koishi before she shut herself off, or the information provided just isn't accurate (which is possible, but impractical and redundant as literature).
dropped her "subconscious altering" field when facing the protagonists.
If Koishi really has such a blank personality and just does whatever flows ("I saw you playing danmaku and I just had to join~!" etc), consciously dropping an ability that makes her unable to be consciously perceived sounds a bit odd. Not to try and shove the explanation off or anything, but it seems like it just answers a question with questions.
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Also, I'd think that even if Koishi's 3rd eye is opening again<...>
SoPM says that her eye isn't the thing being disabled. What is that is her soul, which is the core factor of youkai's existence.
So, youkai without soul is like human without body - barely existing.
That's what I've came to.
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Another question from the previous thread: What is Sanae's necklace?
All this time I've been in Touhou, I just noticed it right now. Wow, I feel like smashing my head through 5 walls.
By the way on the topic of necklaces or similar: what is the key on Nitori's chest? I think I had asked this in the previous thread but it was never answered (most likely completely unknown).
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Last time the question about Sanae's necklace was asked, I remember some digging turned up that it is mostly likely a rattle necklace - jewelry associated with those who work with the gods in many Asian cultures.
As for Nitori's key, the consensus seems to be that it goes to her workshop, but there's no evidence to support this; it's just a plausible explanation.
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As for Nitori's key, the consensus seems to be that it goes to her workshop, but there's no evidence to support this; it's just a plausible explanation.
I think there's also a theory it's an all-purpose skeleton key, and that Mitori's matching key can do the opposite and lock anything.
Or maybe it was vicey-versey, I can't remember.
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Uh, isn't Mitori a fan-made character?
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Uh, isn't Mitori a fan-made character?
O rite. :V
Note to self: Do not attempt to be helpful before breakfast, especially while still in the throes of last night's turkey coma.
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I just expressed how weird it is that nobody is supposed to perceive or communicate with her and/or remember an encounter with her, yet Akyu gets this information without talking to Satori. If Marisa was indeed the source, how she remembers this or suddenly knows all about Koishi is questionable. The only thing I can think of is that someone else learned of this information from Satori and then passed it to Akyu, or it came from someone else who knew Koishi before she shut herself off, or the information provided just isn't accurate (which is possible, but impractical and redundant as literature).
It could be that some point after her encounter with Koishi Marisa talked with Satori again (Marisa does visit the underground from time to time, it seems, to go drink with Yuugi, and I doubt she wouldn't want to go borrow stuff from Chireiden while there), so maybe that's where she got the info. Although this is purely conjecture, of course.
If Koishi really has such a blank personality and just does whatever flows ("I saw you playing danmaku and I just had to join~!" etc), consciously dropping an ability that makes her unable to be consciously perceived sounds a bit odd. Not to try and shove the explanation off or anything, but it seems like it just answers a question with questions.
But since she'd have to do it do go play with the heroines, maybe she dropped her ability unconsioucly as well.
...I'm unsure on how much sense that makes.
SoPM says that her eye isn't the thing being disabled. What is that is her soul, which is the core factor of youkai's existence.
So, youkai without soul is like human without body - barely existing.
That's what I've came to.
But since she became like she is now by closing her eye, it seems both things are connected. Her eye opening might either be the cause of her recovering her old personality, or just an indicator that she's getting it back. Either way, it's a thing only she herself would notice.
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But since she became like she is now by closing her eye, it seems both things are connected. Her eye opening might either be the cause of her recovering her old personality, or just an indicator that she's getting it back. Either way, it's a thing only she herself would notice.
You didn't catch. Koishi hadn't even touched her 3rd eye. What she had done is disabling her soul ~= closing her mind.
Soul and body in youkai are connected differently from human, so, instead of becoming a vegetable, she have turned into an "imaginary companion".
I'be remembered an episode from "Doctor Who", when the Doctor descripes the perception filter (or whatever it's named). This device forces people to not pay attention to its target.
I think, soulless youkai is something similar. You don't pay to her more attention than to a rock beside a road. Thus, you won't remember encountering her as your mind won't count it as something worthing memorization.
However, this "filter" isn't absolute. As in "Doctor", one can specially watch this youkai, and eventually notice and memorize her. This youkai can do something attracting attention, and this increases odds of noticing her.
So, even Akyu, if told that, can revise her memory and notice an unknown girl. After all, Akyu cannot forget anything she had seen, even when she hadn't noticed what she had seen.
Something like that.
P.S. Man, it's a third time when instead of "quote" I press "report to moderator". ._.'
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Hm... both her article in SoPM and her profile from SA simply mentioned that she closed her eye/closed her own mind:
Profile: "Koishi closed the third eye that gave her the ability to manipulate the subconscious. As a result, she lost her ability to read others' minds, but in return she gained the ability to take action unconsciously. [...] Closing off that ability because it's hated is just running away, and is no different from closing off one's own mind. It's effectively pushing away others' feelings and shutting down."
SoPM: "However, she is a satori who had closed off her own mind, making her unable to read others'"
Doing that is what killed both her ability to read minds and her conscious thoughts. They never mention anything regarding changes on her soul, which I'd guess is something the omniscient game profile would mention if it was relevant. I'd guess that the reason she's not a vegetable is because she's constantly acting on unconscious impulses, not because she became an "imaginary friend". (SoPM: "Instead of considering her own actions before carrying them out, she often performs them on-the-spot. Just like raising your right arm, without realizing that you're doing so, she performs all of her actions unconsciously.")
I'm also pretty sure she's not soulless, specially since it seems that the process that closed her mind can be reversed, and youkai that actually lose their souls (like by being possessed by a vengeful spirit) have their unique personalities utterly destroyed and can never recover.
The way she disappears from other people's minds seems to be pretty much what you described, though; she can only be noticed if someone looks directly at her, and even then it's like she's just a small rock in the road (not worthy of attention). As Akyuu puts it, "Her presence cannot be felt by anyone unless she has entered their field of vision. Even if one can see her with their eyes, she would still be thought of as non-existent. When she disappears from the field of vision, she is immediately forgotten."
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About Koishi: There is really no real contradiction with the protagonists being able to remember her and people not able to remember her. Koishi is a person who has no presence, so you cannot detect her. You can still see her, so it isn't like she is invisible. The explanation is that she is like a rock, you can see rocks, but you don't normally pay attention to them.
You can still remember her, but she would be a mundane memory, something that you would just forget afterwards. That said, if you were to fight her and there were some curious things she did, then remembering her is not difficult. I guess this can be similar to trying to remember what you did yesterday. Sure you did many things, but the ordinary events are all forgotten. Unless something special happens, meeting Koishi would not be memorable.
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Something that suddenly entered my mind and won't leave me alone...
Can Tojiko and Mima possess people? They are vengeful spirits after all...
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Something that suddenly entered my mind and won't leave me alone...
Can Tojiko and Mima possess people? They are vengeful spirits after all...
Vengeful spirits are only a subclass of ghosts that has little meaning other than having a grudge against something and being able to cause noises/thunder/lightning. Through the process of becoming a shikaisen, Tojiko could have invaded a corpse as her "container", although this would be impractical because the body would have quickly eroded, being dead. Clearly, invading something that's dead for the process of putting your soul in an object that doesn't "die" in order to escape death is completely redundant. I doubt that invading another person would work to begin with, as they already have a soul, but for the same reasons a shikaisen would never want to invade a person. Of course, Futo swapped her intended container with a crappy one that broke anyways, hence why she's a ghost, but to answer your question, "probably no". Ghosts haven't been shown to have the ability to possess people as of yet.
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But... then they are different from the vengeful spirits that the 3 big bosses (and Marisa) talked about in the Symposium? The ones that can possess people and youkai?
Perhaps because their grudge is mostly gone...
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Tojiko is essentially the same type of ghost as Yuyuko, and is definitely not a vengeful spirit. As for Mima, she came and went before any mention of vengeful spirits, so nobody can say for sure whether she actually is the type of vengeful spirit that was discussed at the symposium.
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Tojiko is essentially the same type of ghost as Yuyuko, and is definitely not a vengeful spirit.
SoPM: "[...] As she carries a grudge against humans, her nature is that of a vengeful spirit. [...] She seems to be a fairly high class vengeful spirit, as she is able to make thunder fall. [...]"
Though Akyuu also does say "Fortunately, her grudge has almost dissipated, and she is turning into an mere thunder-causing ghost." so it seems that Tojiko really isn't a vengeful spirit anymore.
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Curse you ZUN and your silly ghost taxonomy. :derp: If Tojiko wants to possess people then I guess she could, but there won't be any definite answer to that.
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Ghosts haven't been shown to have the ability to possess people as of yet.
While not explicitly shown, Touhou ghosts have been implied to have the ability to possess people. When Yuyuko was talking to Marisa in the SWR dialogue, Yuyuko talks of possessing Marisa. Also I believe there is talk of possession or maybe it was curse? in one of the 3 fairies' manga. I don't quite remember where though.
@Mima and Tojiko: They probably can't possess people.
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Attending to the stereotype of ghost possession through character banter is just as close to "they can possess people" as is just going "ghosts can usually possess people so these probably can too". Unless it's happened or is reliably said to be able to happen, you can't really say it's canonically validated.
I did earlier use some misleading wording though: Vengeful spirits are a subclass of ghosts, but they are usually closer to phantoms (as usually seen), and could probably be called a subclass of them as well, since most vengeful spirits mentioned are phantoms (well, humans) that have been sent to hell (SA, WaHH etc). While as mentioned, vengeful spirits have been at least said by Kanako to be able to possess bodies, they haven't been shown to as of yet. More importantly, Tojiko became a ghost rather than these usual vengeful spirits, and while she might have been able to possess people before she stayed a ghost, as I explained this would be a redundant solution for her and she'd be better off turning into a teakettle. Mima is also moot since she doesn't exist when regarding current canon details :^D
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I wasn't really thinking about Tojiko possessing people to complete her immortality process, it was more a "general capabilities of the character" question. I mean, if she still COULD possess people and youkai the way Kanako says vengeful spirits can, she'd be an enormous danger to youkai. Incidentally it seems that possessing youkai would kind of complete her immortality process, since, if Byakuren is right, that'd completely destroy the original mind of the youkai and replace it with hers (Byakuren: "It means they have died as that particular youkai. What's left is a completely different youkai. [...] The new youkai's core would be the mind of the spirit that possessed them... In other words, rather than being reborn, the spirit will take over their entire existence.")
I'd trust Kanako on this matter; there's no reason for her to just make this stuff up (unlike Yuyuko who is fond of trolling), Akyuu, Miko and Byakuren didn't disagree with her (one is a scholar and the other two are highly knowledgeable on spiritual matters, and Byakuren is the one that explains what would happen if a youkai got possessed), and although Kanako does say she never actually heard about youkai being possessed, the way she speaks about humans being possessed and the consequences of it imply she has seen or at least heard about this happening before (Kanako "The scary part is when they possess humans. They possess to humans and induce them to resent their own kind. [...] they would fall into paranoia, not being able to tell friend from enemy.")
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Are Aya's expressions in STB judging my score, or do they just vary card to card? For some reason I used to be sure they were, but when I was just playing the game again for the first time in ages I didn't see any evidence of that, nor do I remember why I thought so...
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Assuming you scored high enough to avoid the default disappointed response (she says something like "I took a lot of pictures, but none of them are any good,"and I think the text is blue) then her expression just depends on the scene. Your score doesn't effect it beyond that.
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Where the Hell does Alice pull all her dolls out from?
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Where the Hell does Alice pull all her dolls out from?
It's Gensokyo, nothing makes sense.
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Where the Hell does Alice pull all her dolls out from?
She's a magician. It wouldn't be hard to believe she has something like a bag of holding to carry them around.
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She's a magician. It wouldn't be hard to believe she has something like a bag of holding to carry them around.
Hm...
Grimoire! :V
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I figured it was her grimoire except presumably to summon the dolls she would need to OPEN the grimoire and when she does that shit gets real. As shit has not gotten real since her boss fight in the PC-98 games it stands to reason she hasn't opened her grimoire. I 'unno! /:V/
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I always figured she just had them premade, and just summoned them in via magic. That's how it seems to be when she uses skills like Doll Archers in the fighters at least.
Admittedly, she probably carries a few on hand, but that's just something practical to do. WOuldn't wanna be caught unarmed in a place like Gensokyo would ya?
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You don't need a grimoire to perform magic if you're a magician.
You don't even need somewhere to hold them if you're a magician.
Hell the doll strings are magical and she doesn't even use her hands to control them.
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Oh. Well then!
Next question:
Why the heck is a goddess of misfortune so low on the totem pole?
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Why the heck is a goddess of misfortune so low on the totem pole?
Why is she not? She's not the god of harvest, who brings you food, or the god of whatever.
She's a goddess of curses and misfortune. You don't want that around you, so people would logically avoid her. The fear slowly makes you forget that she collects curses for you, and you take it for granted.
But Hina's not the goddess in the proper sense anyway.
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Your new title/text. :V :V :V
Edit: changed again :(
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She's a goddess of curses and misfortune. You don't want that around you, so people would logically avoid her. The fear slowly makes you forget that she collects curses for you, and you take it for granted.
Speaking of which her purpose is to gather the misfortune from humans, it just so happens that if you get near her you'll get hit by some of what she has. She isn't affected by the human misfortune but being unable to speak with humans much is pretty unfortunate in itself
:P
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What's with the ridiculous amount of OC-centric Touhou fan fictions? And most of them have generic and uninspired plots too: random guy ends up in Gensokyo and interacts with the girls or gets into conflicts. The series has a tons of characters to write stories about, and most people choose to use OCs instead?!
Anyone who is familiar with the Touhou section of Fanfiction.net should be able to tell this. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of OC-centric stories, so maybe it's just my personal pet peeve, but what I said is still true, however.
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Anyone who is familiar with the Touhou section of Fanfiction.net should be able to tell this. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of OC-centric stories, so maybe it's just my personal pet peeve, but what I said is still true, however.
I made a small pen and paper Touhou rpg myself, and I admit that once you create a Touhou OC, the desire to write a self-insert is quite powerful.
Thing is, it seems people who write them have no idea how to write a self-insert. They aren't inserting themselves in Gensokyo, they're just changing the characters like they want and most of them ends up being completely unrelated to their canon depiction. I know that a lot if left to interpretation, but it often goes downright insane.
I think the main reason there is so many Touhou self-insert is because Gensokyo is a wonderful world full of characters that is basically a playground left for the ''author'' to exploit as he wish. Unlike most fandoms, you can just pick one of the many groups and push your self-insert into it. (The SDM, the Myouren temple, Team (9), etc).
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Just so you know, it's only OC protagonists that I don't like, but I have absolutely no problems with OC villains, so long as the protagonist is a canon character. In fact, quite a few of my FF.net stories have OC villains. I'm fine with good OCs as long they are side characters.
Anyway, thanks for the response!
And one more thing: we can all agree that Touhou 6 is the Street Fighter 2 of the series, right? Characters from that game, especially the SDM crew, are seen almost everywhere in fan stuff and are usually the first group of characters fans think of when talking about Touhou.
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And one more thing: we can all agree that Touhou 6 is the Street Fighter 2 of the series, right? Characters from that game, especially the SDM crew, are seen almost everywhere in fan stuff and are usually the first group of characters fans think of when talking about Touhou.
More or less. It also standardized the game mechanics for up until Mountain of Faith, which is like the Street Fighter III of the series.
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Thanks for the fast reply!
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Just so you know, it's only OC protagonists that I don't like, but I have absolutely no problems with OC villains, so long as the protagonist is a canon character. Quite few of my FF.net stories have OC villains after all. I'm fine with good OCs as long they are side characters.
Oh absolutely! OC villains are a good idea, since most Touhou characters aren't evil, mostly causing an incident once and then being rather peaceful. Besides, every Touhou game brings up new characters then never makes them cause an incident again. I think that in Touhou case, making a dramatic plot using canon Touhou characters is great, but not necessary, as a good OC villain is just as great.
Characters from that game, especially the SDM crew, are seen almost everywhere in fan stuff and are usually the first group of characters fans think of when talking about Touhou.
Yeah. I really wonder why, there's so many other casts now.
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Yeah. I really wonder why, there's so many other casts now.
Probably since it's the first in the series, so when people look up information on Touhou they wind up looking up TH06 first. I imagine the Imperishable Night cast is a decently close second since it's the easiest-to-get-into of the games, gameplay-wise, and attracts a sizable contingent for that reason.
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What's with the ridiculous amount of OC-centric Touhou fan fictions?
And most of them have generic and uninspired plots
Touhou section of Fanfiction.net
maybe because all three of these things are intrinsically linked somehow!!!!!
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There's a reason Fanfiction.net is nicknamed The Pit.
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There's a reason Fanfiction.net is nicknamed The Pit.
Obligatory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO3xam9dHSY
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Obligatory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO3xam9dHSY
This is so incredibly fitting, I'm just sitting there, speechless.
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This is so incredibly fitting, I'm just sitting there, speechless.
Now I'm imagining you channelling Ganonderp's voice while you and Hinacle tear into that bad fanfic.
...
I'm okay with this.
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Not trying to boast here, but sometimes I think I'm one of the few people in FF.net who takes fan fictions seriously and try to come up with original stuff. Admittedly, most of my stories are adapted from or inspired by existing medias and storyline, even other author/ess' stories...
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Not trying to boast here, but sometimes I think I'm one of the few people in FF.net who takes fan fictions seriously and try to come up with original stuff. Admittedly, most of my stories are adapted from or inspired by existing medias and storyline, even other author/ess' stories...
Well if it makes you feel better I eagerly await Yayifications' every update in Patchouli's Scarlet Library with bated breath. :3
Also, Dante's Inferno = Bible fanfic, the BEST Bible fanfic.
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Not trying to boast here, but sometimes I think I'm one of the few people in FF.net who takes fan fictions seriously and try to come up with original stuff. Admittedly, most of my stories are adapted from or inspired by existing medias and storyline, even other author/ess' stories...
Fanfiction.net's population:
50 % Mary Sues / Gary Stues who are like ''OMG IM SUCH A GEWD RITER LEWK''
25 % ''I was drunk /stoned while writing this / I wrote this crazy thing'' and it's hilarious as hell
25 % serious stories without pretention, and 50 % of that 25 % are good stories.
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Admittedly, most of my stories are adapted from or inspired by existing medias and storyline, even other author/ess' stories...
Still, I think is more original and creative than the aforementioned kinds of stories.
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Hey, I actually have a question.
Why does most Touhou videos end up getting a ''What anime is this?'' comment? I mean, it's fine thinking that it's an anime at first but, how come SO many people haven't heard of google?
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Perhaps it's the character design and the way the art style looks in most videos make it look like something you find in anime?
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maybe because all three of these things are intrinsically linked somehow!!!!!
Haha, wonderful answer, you may picture me clapping my hands.
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"What anime is this?" is an ancient troll comment most of the time. The art style of many fan works can also be anime-ish.
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If you cloned Kyouko and put both Kyoukos in a room and got one of them to echo, could you get some sweet Jimi Hendrix-style feedback loops going?
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Hey, I actually have a question.
Why does most Touhou videos end up getting a ''What anime is this?'' comment? I mean, it's fine thinking that it's an anime at first but, how come SO many people haven't heard of google?
There's a reason lmgtfy.com has to exist. Many people are rather... poor at looking up their own answers to things. Heck, most of what passes for my job wouldn't exist if people thought to just use Google themselves, so that's okay by me!
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Hmmm I am without time to read ZUN's books/manga about Touhou-universe for while, so if this question's answer is in some of these ones sorry :P
Are that snakes from Sanae's hair or Nue's arm alive? And that snakes are very similar, does exist some relationship between them?
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Sanae's hair, no. Nue's outfit, sorta---not sure if they're separate entities or just living pieces of herself or what. And no, no real connection, aside from Sanae naturally fighting Nue in that route of UFO's EX stage.
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Sanae's snake is probably alive. It hissed in Reimu's face in one early chapter of WaHH. However, you can also interpret that "hiss" as figurative rather than literal.
There's also ZUN's circle cut drawing for Comiket 82, in which Sanae mistook real animals for her accessories. On the other hand, we can argue that the snake has always been real, and only her hairpin got replaced by a real frog in that pic.
See? The ambiguity in Touhou is everywhere down to the smallest details.
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Thanks for the answers, I was reading some random page at "Character Musics and their personalities" and I found this :P
The snake isn't a Kanako reference. The mythical Nue does have a snake for a tail (not just a snake's tail) but having it coming from her butt would be a bit too indecent (see also Utsuho and her 'third leg').
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I was browsing the Touhou Hisoutensoku Wiki, namely the Hong Meiling article (Seriously, go read it, especially the skill and spell cards) and is there a reason Meiling has all those insanely manly poses?
No seriously, either it's a reference or the spriter had a lot of fun because all of her spellcards make her do some sort of powerful manly hero pose and face.
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First, many of Meiling's poses are simply real martial arts moves.
Second, Meiling in the fighting games is a joke character in the tradition of Dan Hibiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hibiki). She may make as many grand gestures and heroic faces as she wants, but she's still a goofy person with a fighting style not suited for Gensokyo. The two poses she often assumes in her Story Mode, "standing with wind blowing" and "uppercut", are both references to Dan and Ryu.
I'm not an expert in either martial arts or fighting game history. Someone more enlightened should be able to tell you more, such as the real world names and purposes of her moves.
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Aah, I didn't get the references of her poses. And I always thought she lost her joke character status in UNL, as she's much better now, but I guess there's still some left overs.
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Aah, I didn't get the references of her poses. And I always thought she lost her joke character status in UNL, as she's much better now, but I guess there's still some left overs.
Well, she's tougher than Cirno in that regard, but she's still not highest-tier.
But who cares about tiers when you can uppercut your buddy off the top of the screen? :V
EDIT: Some of Meiling's attacks are based off of Yun, for the curious.
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First, many of Meiling's poses are simply real martial arts moves.
Second, Meiling in the fighting games is a joke character in the tradition of Dan Hibiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hibiki). She may make as many grand gestures and heroic faces as she wants, but she's still a goofy person with a fighting style not suited for Gensokyo. The two poses she often assumes in her Story Mode, "standing with wind blowing" and "uppercut", are both references to Dan and Ryu.
I'm not an expert in either martial arts or fighting game history. Someone more enlightened should be able to tell you more, such as the real world names and purposes of her moves.
Someone hasn't played Soku (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0noT0XAXwlQ) yet have they? :P
And I wasn't sure where else to post this but I was thinking that, if the youkai in touhou took on there apperances as based on the mythology theyre based on, what would magician youkai look like, then I figured theyd probibly remain humanlike, since theyre suppose to be simmilar to humans, but just very proficciant with magic, yet physically weaker than humans, which got me thinking, "Since Youkai Magician's are generally weaker than humans physically, due to working with mercury if memory serves, would, say for example, if a stronger than average human punched Patchouli as hard as he could, would she actually get hurt due to having a physically weak body, or would she shrug it off like any other Youkai? Bit of a brain scratcher when you think about it. (or to me it is anyway :V)
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They might be more fragile but OTOH since they fueled by magic I imagine all they need to repair themselves is time and mana.
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"Since Youkai Magician's are generally weaker than humans physically, due to working with mercury if memory serves, would, say for example, if a stronger than average human punched Patchouli as hard as he could, would she actually get hurt due to having a physically weak body, or would she shrug it off like any other Youkai? Bit of a brain scratcher when you think about it. (or to me it is anyway :V)
Don't really think this question is definitively answerable or serious.
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My random, entirely baseless guess is that it's easier to physically harm them compared to other youkai, but they'd still be able to regenerate from the injuries quickly.
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If we're going all speculative I'd guess that any smart magician would have put up some effortless magical barrier than protects them from physical assault.
If you're able to ask these sorts of questions, chances are they've already thought of it. Magicians are probably smarter than you :P
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If we're going all speculative I'd guess that any smart magician would have put up some effortless magical barrier than protects them from physical assault.
Isn't this what basically everyone does in the fighting games when defending
I never really did understand what was that translucent wall Sakuya summons out of thin air, must be a magic barrier that Patchy taught her then :V
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Don't really think this question is definitively answerable or serious.
Actually, it was a serious question, although I was incredibly sleep deprived when I posed it, so I was probibly thinking WAY too much into it :V
I really need to stop letting my mind wander when I'm getting ready for bed one of these days :derp:
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I never really did understand what was that translucent wall Sakuya summons out of thin air, must be a magic barrier that Patchy taught her then
Could well be, it isn't like Sakuya doesn't know magic. Patchouli did teach Remilia a lot of "useless" information.
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I never really did understand what was that translucent wall Sakuya summons out of thin air, must be a magic barrier that Patchy taught her then :V
It has bothered me for a while, so I just figured she created a wall of condensed time-stopped air particles, hence the glow. (Like her knives have when they're affected by Sakuya's powers :derp:)
That's a (somewhat) silly theory though.
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hey guys danmaku is all done in a 2d plane because that's what all the games show
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hey guys danmaku is all done in a 2d plane because that's what all the games show
(http://i.imgur.com/UmpOi.gif)
It has bothered me for a while, so I just figured she created a wall of condensed time-stopped air particles, hence the glow. (Like her knives have when they're affected by Sakuya's powers :derp:)
That's a (somewhat) silly theory though.
That's actually an interesting explanation, though, a pretty creative use of time-stopping and space-warping powers.
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(http://i.imgur.com/UmpOi.gif)
I swear I stared for at least 5 minutes at this gif while laughing like a madman. I freaking love this thing xD
That's actually an interesting explanation, though, a pretty creative use of time-stopping and space-warping powers.
Thankies :D I guess that in the end, it's not like ZUN's going to give any explanation, so random guesses are as good as developed theories.
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Yeah that explanation was pretty interesting. I think that might be the answer...
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I was actually thinking that myself oddly enough. Weird how two largely unrelated people reached the same conclusion around potentially the same time.
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i hope you realize i was being facetious by taking the question and making another statement that is pointless for the exact same reason that your question is pointless
game visuals/mechanics/etc != something that actually happens
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I see no relation between Sakuya's unexplained magic guard and your statement. One is a specific visual effect that is asked what it's supposed to represent. The other is a vital part of the gameplay of most Touhou games.
Visuals =/= mechanics.
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i hope you realize i was being facetious by taking the question and making another statement that is pointless for the exact same reason that your question is pointless
game visuals/mechanics/etc != something that actually happens
I finished that statement with a :V. I was not being serious about it.
Although it did generate an interesting response, so whateves.
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One is a specific visual effect... The other is a vital part of the gameplay
But which one is which? D:
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That's all is interesting, but...
It has bothered me for a while, so I just figured she created a wall of condensed time-stopped air particles, hence the glow. (Like her knives have when they're affected by Sakuya's powers :derp:)
Why stopped particles would glow? :3
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That's all is interesting, but...Why stopped particles would glow? :3c
Not really sure. But Sakuya's 236B/C knives in Soku and SWR are sped up and they glow. So the glow could mean the objects are in displaced time. IDK TBH.
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Not really sure. But Sakuya's 236B/C knives in Soku and SWR are sped up and they glow. So the glow could mean the objects are in displaced time. IDK TBH.
I mean, an object with T~=0K wouldn't radiate any EM-waves.
About knives, well, their time is accelerated, and their molecules, when seen from outside, oscillate with higher frequency that is enough to resulting wave to be perceived by human's eye as light. Same with air around them.
However, why not just to take it easy? :3
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Bah, the next time I should say that Sunny Milk is messing with dielectric permittivities and changing the speed of light.
Anyways, a few questions about Extending Arm :
Is there any animal that CAN extend one arm by retracting the other arm? (No, not the Kipling Monkeys)
Nitori's Extending Arm is almost always shown as white gloved hands connected by a metal cord to her backpack.(or something like that).
Is this any reference to anything, or is it something too commonplace to nail a specific reference?
Was the mechanical hands in the backpack ever shown in official material?
That's three questions.
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@Delfi and Fondue:
WHY ARE YOU TWO ATTEMPTING TO APPLY PHYSICS TO GENSOKYO.
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Bah, the next time I should say that Sunny Milk is messing with dielectric permittivities and changing the speed of light.
Anyways, a few questions about Extending Arm :
Is there any animal that CAN extend one arm by retracting the other arm? (No, not the Kipling Monkeys)
Nitori's Extending Arm is almost always shown as white gloved hands connected by a metal cord to her backpack.(or something like that).
Is this any reference to anything, or is it something too commonplace to nail a specific reference?
Was the mechanical hands in the backpack ever shown in official material?
That's three questions.
I don't think Extending Arm has ever been shown in official materials. Everything related to extendible mechanical arms that she has is made up by fans.
And please, Pasuhead, shouting isn't nice.
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@Delfi and Fondue:
WHY ARE YOU TWO ATTEMPTING TO APPLY PHYSICS TO GENSOKYO.
And please, Pasuhead, shouting isn't nice.
N-not too loud...
I have another question. Since Rumia manipulates darkness, and darkness is the opposite of light, does that mean she has control over light to a certain degree? And vice versa with Sunny Milk?
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I have another question. Since Rumia manipulates darkness, and darkness is the opposite of light, does that mean she has control over light to a certain degree? And vice versa with Sunny Milk?
Actually, I've thought of that for a while.
Rumia doesn't really ''control darkness'' in the proper sense of the term; The most she can do is create an orb of darkness in which you can't see much, or make it like a summer night.
THUS! in conclusion, Rumia's ability is like Cirno, that is not to create/control what their power specify, but rather creating an absence of the opposite (Light/Heat), as neither cold nor darkness physically exist.
...In more simple terms, Rumia is a light-eater. So, unless you count that as ''controlling light'', then no.
Also Sunny controls light's refraction, not light itself.
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I thought Cirno just controlled ice rather than cold. There's a difference.
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Letty controls
cold absence of heat, Cirno controls ice.
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And please, Pasuhead, shouting isn't nice.
I was being facetious, but sorry anyway. :V
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Letty controls cold absence of heat, Cirno controls ice.
Right! Sorry.
I shouldn't call Cirno fat like that.
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Actually, both Letty and Cirno control cold. Letty controls '寒気' while Cirno controls '冷気', and both seem to translate to coldness in the same way. The important distinction is that Letty's version of cold is supposed to be lower in temperature (that is, colder) than Cirno's.
Edit:
Was the mechanical hands in the backpack ever shown in official material?
One of them appeared in Wild and Horned Hermit chapter 1.
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Also Sunny controls light's refraction, not light itself.
Light refracts because light travels in different speeds in different materials, in simpler terms.
Usually because the dielectric permittivity is different. (Sometimes the magnetic permeability also counts)
One of them appeared in Wild and Horned Hermit chapter 1.
Oops, I forgot to mention that that doesn't count. I want them to come out from backpacks, or something like that.
So I take it that there wasn't any other instance of mechanical Extending Arm?
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Right! Sorry.
I shouldn't call Cirno fat like that.
oh u
Actually, both Letty and Cirno control cold. Letty controls '寒気' while Cirno controls '冷気', and both seem to translate to coldness in the same way. The important distinction is that Letty's version of cold is supposed to be lower in temperature (that is, colder) than Cirno's.
So does that mean Letty should be stronger and a higher stage boss than Cirno? Or does powers have nothing in common with skill of Danmaku battles?
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So does that mean Letty should be stronger and a higher stage boss than Cirno? Or does powers have nothing in common with skill of Danmaku battles?
Letty is actually, canonically, an insanely powerful youkai. She was going very easy on you in PCB because she knows spring has to arrive anyway.
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Rumia doesn't really ''control darkness'' in the proper sense of the term; The most she can do is create an orb of darkness in which you can't see much, or make it like a summer night.
Rumia's darkness is magical. It blocks light in a stricter sense. An example that was used is that even if you have torchlight in the ball of darkness, there would be no light.
So does that mean Letty should be stronger and a higher stage boss than Cirno? Or does powers have nothing in common with skill of Danmaku battles?
Yeah, I think Letty was somewhat miffed that she was being compared to Cirno in I think Perfect Momento in Strict Sense.
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Rumia's darkness is magical. It blocks light in a stricter sense. An example that was used is that even if you have torchlight in the ball of darkness, there would be no light.
Wouldn't that just prove further the whole ''Rumia's actual power is to absorb light'', considering the torch's light has no effect instead of weakening?
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Perfect Momento
Huh.
________
I thought Rumiya, basically, represents human's fear of darkness. So, she cannot actually manipulate light, but she can worsen human's light perceiving on psychological level.
________
Alliterator, that's not just school phsycs, it is the Gensokyo Physics!
I wonder if magic power is measured in joules.
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So how about creating a "Explaining Gensokyo through physics and science" or something, eh
I don't think this is the best place to continue such discussions?
I could be wrong though
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oh uSo does that mean Letty should be stronger and a higher stage boss than Cirno? Or does powers have nothing in common with skill of Danmaku battles?
It has already been stated what stage a boss appears in is not a factor for determining power level.
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I thought Rumia, basically, represents human's fear of darkness. So, she cannot actually manipulate light, but she can worsen human's light perceiving on psychological level.
That seems weird when you consider you can see her big blob of darkness floating around, and how light doesn't pass through it. I think it's better off to assume it "absorbs" the light in whatever fashion, since that's what's been shown. She also mentions it's cooler while inside the blob.
But of course how her ability works shouldn't matter whatsoever.
So how about creating a "Explaining Gensokyo through physics and science" or something, eh
how about no and never please :c
EDIT: why
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how about no and never please :c
EDIT: why
Pick one:
- Magic
- Yukari's fooling around again
- It's a Moriya Shrine conspiracy
- Because your suffering strengthen us
- Because it doesn't matter that the explanation for how a character's power work doesn't matter; trying to guess it using real physics is fun in a ridiculous sort of way. You may not enjoy it, but don't be the "stop having fun" guy for the rest of us, mmmkay~
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- Because it doesn't matter that the explanation for how a character's power work doesn't matter; trying to guess it using real physics is fun in a ridiculous sort of way.
I actually have to agree. I mean, I answer things like ''Rumia absorbs light'' and ''Sakuya stops air particles'', but I'm in no way serious in the sense that I believe that "THIS IS THE EXPLANATION."
I mean, we all know the explanation to everything Touhou-related is pretty much "Because."
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Pff there are sillier threads than that on TARC. I think the major reason I'm opposed to it is that you're taking serious and complex principles that are very very likely going to be thrown around completely haphazardly with major errors everywhere just to strap them to something silly, which itself defeats the purpose of using that more serious and strict context to explain silly things. Regardless, I can express my disapproval of it all I want but as long as it's in some not-serious-thread that I can avoid there isn't any problem. Just stop having fun in this thread >:C
also templates like that are forbidden
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Now that that's settled, does anyone know the origin of that one particular depiction of Eirin, where she looks rather like a sausage painted to look like Eirin?
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It's called ヤゴコロ "Doctor Yagokoro", often seen with a leek in hand. Fan works generally treat it as a separate character from Eirin.
It's based on one of those the 2ch emoticon characters. This one stands for tsumari つまり "that is to say".
Source:
Nicovideo encyclopedia
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/%E3%83%A4%E3%82%B4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%AD
Pixiv encyclopedia
http://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E3%83%A4%E3%82%B4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%AD
Due to Touhou's prevalence in NicoNico and Pixiv, both encyclopedia are actually very good sources of Touhou reference, containing much info not found on THWiki.info and Touhou Moto-Neta wiki.
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I've never really found thwiki.info and moto-neta to contain much information that we don't already know, so pretty much they're good for double-checking.
dic.nico on the other hand is almost directly died with how the fandom has evolved, so in general it's a very good resource for finding out "what does thing I've seen in videos/in images/on 2ch mean and how did it come to be". It's in japanese of course (and so are the names of the character/phenomenon to search), so unfortunately it's sort of difficult for most people to check whenever they want.
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Where can I get a pasuhead?
???
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Where can I get a pasuhead?
???
Here http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12837.0.html
I am not at my home now, later I can send one .png with the heads if you want it.
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I didn't think about this till a friend brought it up today while looking at a wall scroll on my wall of most of the Touhou cast. He asked me where the design for what ZUN's characters wear came from and I was completely stumped.
Some of the characters clothes make perfect sense. Sakuya and Reimu's clothes are the typical uniform for what they do, maid and shrine maiden respectively. The characters that prompted the question were mainly Ran, Yuyuko, Yugi, and Patchouli. I think he was looking at the strange hats/horn.
Does ZUN look at loli fashion magazines for inspiration? Does he come up with it on his own (if this is the case I'm seriously impressed)? What do you guys think, why does ZUN have such impeccable style for his characters?
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I seriously think he just doodles whatever the heck he wants. Some are clearly inspired by some sort of style, but all of ZUN's designs clearly carry his own style, and I don't think many of his designs are really indicative of coming from anywhere else. To have so many characters following the same sort of overall style would take a lot of effort if most were looking through magazines or something. The items of clothing, however, vary between "this is a real piece of clothing that represents something about the character" and "this is a silly hat". Ran's clothes in particular likely are similar to some other real piece of clothing. Yuyuko does wear a kimono of sorts. Patchouli uh wears some pajamas or something. I'm fairly certain Yuugi had literally no inspiration or theme though, and I'm trying to remember if this was stated at the same time he talked about her transparent skirt.
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Here http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12837.0.html
I am not at my home now, later I can send one .png with the heads if you want it.
Oh yes please do.
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Check out the profile for "Suika Ibuki rough" here: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Suika_Ibuki#Official_Profiles (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Suika_Ibuki#Official_Profiles)
"She may not look very oni-like, but for me, chains are the mark of an oni (g)" - ZUN
Wikipedia adds a bit on that in the Kasen entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Touhou_Project_characters#Kasen_Ibara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Touhou_Project_characters#Kasen_Ibara):
"However, because she supposedly has horns and her left wrist has a shackle, it might also be safe to assume that she is an Oni (ZUN once stated that for him, horns and shackles are the mark of Oni)."
although this goes uncited.
Then have a look at the fifth bullet point in the Trivia section here: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Yuugi_Hoshiguma#Trivia (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Yuugi_Hoshiguma#Trivia)
Sadly uncited as well, but it seems viable.
Another site gives the same info, talking about the same interview as well: http://graysonanimeclub.grou.ps/blogs/item/touhou-character-update-subterranean-animism-kisume-yamame-kurodani-parsee-mizuhashi-yuugi-hoshiguma-and-koishi-komeiji (http://graysonanimeclub.grou.ps/blogs/item/touhou-character-update-subterranean-animism-kisume-yamame-kurodani-parsee-mizuhashi-yuugi-hoshiguma-and-koishi-komeiji) (scroll to the yuugi part)
Also states that the transparent skrit has no real point.
There was also a fansite that stated the geta she wears make her look even taller than she already is.
Hope this covers Yuugi a bit!
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On the subject of clothes, do the emblem on Shikieiki's hat actually mean anything, or is it there just to make it look
silly pretty?
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It's called ヤゴコロ "Doctor Yagokoro", often seen with a leek in hand. Fan works generally treat it as a separate character from Eirin.
You don't say.
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You don't say.
The part you highlighted may or may not be intended to be a joke.
On the subject of clothes, do the emblem on Shikieiki's hat actually mean anything, or is it there just to make it look silly pretty?
Eiki's hat is inspired by traditional Japanese depiction of King Yama (Enma-O), which is in turn based on some ancient Chinese hats for high-ranking officials, princes and emperors.
Note that in traditional depiction, the character written in the central plate of the hat is 王 "King", which is replaced by scales on Eiki's hat.
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Oh yes please do.
There are some white colored hairs that became transparent, just draw a white line to close the head and fill it if you want to use some of them.
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6458/pasuheads.png (http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6458/pasuheads.png)
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Wondering this for a quite a while, even if it isn't related to Touhou whatsoever.
What is the history of the YOU WA BAN usergroup?
How and when did it happen? What is its purpose? Those kind of things.
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Far as I can gather it's a playful/in-jest mark of shame for sufficiently amusing/minor acts of stupidity/cluelessness.
Like not knowing who Bob Dylan is. :V
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Far as I can gather it's a playful/in-jest mark of shame for sufficiently amusing/minor acts of stupidity/cluelessness.
Like not knowing who Bob Dylan is. :V
Nope.
YOU WA BAN was created along side some other user groups as an actual group for banned people. But as user groups can be joined, a few people thought it would be funny to join the "banned" group.
Using it the way you describe was done once in recent memory (and that was for not knowing what Bohemian Rhapsody was, actually; Dylan was mentioned in the same post).
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Far as I can gather it's a playful/in-jest mark of shame for sufficiently amusing/minor acts of stupidity/cluelessness.
Like not knowing who Bob Dylan is. :V
Nope.
YOU WA BAN was created along side some other user groups as an actual group for banned people. But as user groups can be joined, a few people thought it would be funny to join the "banned" group.
Using it the way you describe was done once in recent memory (and that was for not knowing what Bohemian Rhapsody was, actually; Dylan was mentioned in the same post).
S-stop. H-how was I s-s-supposed to know who he i-is? Noone told m-me before :qq:
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By not being an American, maybe? To be honest, I didn't know what Dead Parrot was until March 2012.
So that's it? Someone made a usergroup to put in banned people and a few people decided to invite themselves?
What's the merit of being in such usergroups?
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So that's it? Someone made a usergroup to put in banned people and a few people decided to invite themselves?
What's the merit of being in such usergroups?
These usergroups are for just fun and serve almost no purpose.
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These usergroups are for just fun and serve almost no purpose.
This is also wrong, very much so.
Guys, seriously, don't guess. If you don't know, just don't respond.
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By not being an American, maybe? To be honest, I didn't know what Dead Parrot was until March 2012.
What's a Dead Parrot? Beyond the obvious 'a deceased bird', which I assume isn't the correct usage here.
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What's a Dead Parrot? Beyond the obvious 'a deceased bird', which I assume isn't the correct usage here.
Something to do with either;
A: Monty Python.
Or B: PoFV.
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This is also wrong, very much so.
Guys, seriously, don't guess. If you don't know, just don't respond.
Someone told me that once though... and anyway I meant some of the groups.
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Someone told me that once though... and anyway I meant some of the groups.
Regardless, it doesn't really answer the question. I get that you're trying to be helpful, but vague or misleading answers just cause confusion. So let me try and amend this and actually answer the question:
Administrator is self-explanatory.
Gensokyo PD are mods.
Acolytes are in charge of a particular board, and serve to bring the voice of the users of that board to the staff.
Shrine Janitors deal with menial tasks like merging topics, approving posts, making edits when needed and so on.
Librarians mod PSL.
Resident Artist are noteworthy contributors to AAA.
Atelier Idol, Wordsmith, and Godmother are those who have gone above and beyond at AAA, PSL and RPG respectively.
Spechul Memba have gone above and beyond for the site as a whole.
Bunbunmaru Staff write up news.
The Idiots are a part of those competitions you see in the Colliseum.
That's pretty much it.
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What is the Yellow Member tag for?
Ditto with Mascot.
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Kilga.
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Regardless, it doesn't really answer the question. I get that you're trying to be helpful, but vague or misleading answers just cause confusion. So let me try and amend this and actually answer the question:
Administrator is self-explanatory.
Gensokyo PD are mods.
Acolytes are in charge of a particular board, and serve to bring the voice of the users of that board to the staff.
Shrine Janitors deal with menial tasks like merging topics, approving posts, making edits when needed and so on.
Librarians mod PSL.
Resident Artist are noteworthy contributors to AAA.
Atelier Idol, Wordsmith, and Godmother are those who have gone above and beyond at AAA, PSL and RPG respectively.
Spechul Memba have gone above and beyond for the site as a whole.
Bunbunmaru Staff write up news.
The Idiots are a part of those competitions you see in the Colliseum.
That's pretty much it.
So the "You Wa Ban" guys are the base of the food chain :V
And excluding the th1-5 enemies, the bosses and midbosses, all normal enemies from Touhou games are just fairies and yin-yang orbs?
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Well, there's also a bunch of rocks in SA, the divine spirits in TD, bird-like glowy things in the second stage of EoSD, rabbits (with and without fairy wings) in IN... there must be more but I'm not remembering right now.
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Don't forget the ice chunks in EoSD Stage 2 as well!
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Normal enemies, as far as I can remember:
More than one game:
All sorts of fairies
Fuzzballs (Kedama)
Two types, the one with a few hairs only appeared in ESoD and PCB; the common hairy type first appeared in PCB Stage 1, and then become the second most appearing enemy of Touhou.
Crows
Appeared in MoF and SA. Same sprite, different types of creatures.
Yin-Yang Orbs
Appeared in SA and subsequent games.
Spirits
Appeared in PoFV, SA and TD. The spirits in each game are of a different type.
ESoD:
Stage 2 ice/bird/cloth things: I think PoFV clearly indicated those are spirits, since spirits can also take a bird-like shape in that game, but probably not everyone thinks so.
Patchouli's magic books.
PCB:
It's debateable that all Stage 3 "fairies" are in fact Alice's dolls, or as someone said, "the whole stage is Alice!"
IN:
The sprite for stage 5-6 enemies are fairy sprites with rabbit ears added. Again it's debateable whether those are real rabbits, or fairies cosplaying as rabbits. Given that rabbits shouldn't have wings, and fairies also did cosplay in PoFV Eientei stage, I'm leaning towards the later.
SA:
Stage 2 boulders.
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I was with you up until:
The sprite for stage 5-6 enemies are fairy sprites with rabbit ears added. Again it's debateable whether those are real rabbits, or fairies cosplaying as rabbits. Given that rabbits shouldn't have wings, and fairies also did cosplay in PoFV Eientei stage, I'm leaning towards the later.
Given that we know, canonically, that there are in fact actual rabbits hopping all around Eientei, why does "fairies cosplaying as rabbits" - of which there is no evidence - make more sense to you? I wouldn't confuse game graphics with the story.
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Does Keine carry around a well-matched green dress in a handysack or something just so that her colors don't clash on a full moon? I mean, seriously, where does she keep it? :V
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Does Keine carry around a well-matched green dress in a handysack or something just so that her colors don't clash on a full moon? I mean, seriously, where does she keep it? :V
Isn't it just easy to wear a specific set of clothes for a particular day in the month? I mean, you can't possibly be surprised by the moon if you actually follow its evolution, right?
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O rite.
Hai I'm a moron. :V
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O rite.
Hai I'm a moron. :V
Hai c:
On another note, and I'm not sure if this was asked before, is there a point to the weird flashy effect at the start of stage 3 in PCB? Or is it just to look pretty?
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I was with you up until:
Given that we know, canonically, that there are in fact actual rabbits hopping all around Eientei, why does "fairies cosplaying as rabbits" - of which there is no evidence - make more sense to you? I wouldn't confuse game graphics with the story.
Fairies cosplay as nearby stage bosses. That's the canonical explanation for PoFV's rabbit-eared Eientei fairies and black-wearing fairies and Lily White.
For IN, those may really be rabbits, though.
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Ah, cosplay does have precedent. So maybe ... the rabbits are cosplaying as fairies?
It is a mystery.
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On another note, and I'm not sure if this was asked before, is there a point to the weird flashy effect at the start of stage 3 in PCB? Or is it just to look pretty?
This motion blur effect appeared in the first two stages of ESoD, too. I don't think anyone knows the answer to that.
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This motion blur effect
I always thought it is the effect seen when animated geometry is laid without background. Didn't yow saw similar in other 3D games?
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I always thought it is the effect seen when animated geometry is laid without background. Didn't yow saw similar in other 3D games?
And that effect is intended to simulate motion blur, and is also called "motion blur". We are talking about the same thing :D, it's just the difference between name and technical explanation.
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Didn't thought that ZUN was trying to do motion blur.
So, and what is it supposed to mean?
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Has ZUN ever said anything about his stance on videos of official games? I've only seen him talk about derivative works and snapshots (screenshots?) but I can't seem to find anything relating to video footage. I've been assuming it's pretty much the same as the snapshots' terms with the inclusion of no ads allowed but an assumption isn't exactly official.
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Has ZUN ever said anything about his stance on videos of official games? I've only seen him talk about derivative works and snapshots (screenshots?) but I can't seem to find anything relating to video footage. I've been assuming it's pretty much the same as the snapshots' terms with the inclusion of no ads allowed but an assumption isn't exactly official.
I'd like to second this question since I've been wondering about that as well.
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It would be pretty silly to think otherwise considering how many videos are out there uncontested, and there having been no known history of videos being recalled.
It's safe to assume that all language used for screenshots also applies to videos, which are essentially just lots of screenshots.
1. Don't post endings.
2. Rescaling is okay, but please preserve the images' aspect ratio.
3. Don't make image content edits that are indistinguishable from the original images. This includes things like changing the spell card names, recoloring the images, or add extra bullets that weren't originally there.
* However, this is okay if it's done as a joke and it's clearly stated that it's a joke.
4. Things like cropping the images or overlaying them with text are no problem.
That being said, even if he didn't allow videos on principle but never explicitly said so, the reasons for which would still be highlighted in other parts of the ToU. In which case, you should already be following it.
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It's safe to assume that all language used for screenshots also applies to videos, which are essentially just lots of screenshots.
Just wanted to be sure. Better safe than sorry.
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Well, as I said, the reason is mainly because there have been gameplay videos of every game being posted all over the place ever since Touhou achieved mass popularity, and there isn't a history of any being recalled. If there were rules against videos, 1. it would be common knowledge and 2. there would be uh very few videos.
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There's really no reason to stop people from posting gameplay videos on the Internet, unless it show spoilers before it is actually released, is there? If doing that really is wrong, then playthrough, speed run, and Let's Play videos wouldn't exist.
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Well, as I said, the reason is mainly because there have been gameplay videos of every game being posted all over the place ever since Touhou achieved mass popularity, and there isn't a history of any being recalled. If there were rules against videos, 1. it would be common knowledge and 2. there would be uh very few videos.
ZUN did intend one rule post to cover gameplay videos - the screenshot one above, I think.
Not related to gameplay videos, and those recent day-one new CD videos not counting, historically the only Touhou fanvideos being taken down by an official source were due to the three fairies - the manga publisher found those videos in violation of its copyright. Such things probably won't happen again.
I also heard that ZUN had to ask the publisher for permission to make Fairy Wars, but I'm not so sure about the truthfulness of that.
EDIT:
I asked around about it. What ZUN really said was (jokingly) "[I am so lazy] I didn't even go ask the publisher for permission." So there's no such thing as publisher permission.
The "publisher took down three fairies fan videos" story is something I saw on Nicovideo. My hunch is that it's true, but I hardly know anything about Nicovideo.
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Why is it called "Help Me, ERINNNNNN!!" if it's a remix of Kaguya's theme?
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And to that, I add a triple question!
First, what ARE sinsacks?
Secondly, where did they originate?
Thirdly, why are they associated to Yukari of all people?
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Personifications of sin, now commonly used to portray perverted Touhou fans. Originated here (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm477854), and the affiliation with Yukari is mainly due to that being the original instance of them. It's probably helped along by them being interpreted as people she gaps into Gensokyo and stuff.
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Aaah, that explains a lot. Thanks!
Why is it called "Help Me, ERINNNNNN!!" if it's a remix of Kaguya's theme?
Well, the title itself is based on the lyrics, which are sung by Kaguya, so it only makes sense that her theme is used.
The whole thing comes from the fact Kaguya is considered weaker than Eirin game-wise even though she's the "true boss" (Not by everyone, it's a very subjective thing!), and she officially IS weaker than Eirin according to their profiles. The whole Kaguya crying out for Eirin's help is based on this, and it's also purposely against the game itself where it's the other way around, as Kaguya helps Eirin.
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Well, it's not sung entirely by Kaguya (some of the lyrics are for Eirin, but that was close enough, anyways, it explains the name and such) but yeah gonna just stick this relevant link here:
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Lyrics:_Help_me,_ERINNNNNN!! (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Lyrics:_Help_me,_ERINNNNNN!!)
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This is somewhat of a "What can I post where?" sort of thing, but anyways, I want to LP a Touhou fangame (Devil of Decline, to be specific) here. So...
Can I do it on MoTK?
Which board do I post it on if I can?
How should I structure the screenshots (as in how many can I have in one post, etc.)?
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Ragnarok Online, it is a Korean MMORPG Touhou, yes? :/
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RO has nothing to do with Touhou.
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Can I do it on MoTK?
Yes.
Which board do I post it on if I can?
Akyu's Arcade (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/board,10.0.html). See the front page (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/) of the site for more information on what the boards are for.
How should I structure the screenshots (as in how many can I have in one post, etc.)?
Images, as per the Rules board (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/board,20.0.html), are to be 640x480. There's no specific limit for the number of images you can have in a post, but just don't go nuts with like 20 screenshots in a single post or something.
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Hmm this is something i've seen on the forum but don't understand. what is NSFW cause i suck with abbreviation.
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Hmm this is something i've seen on the forum but don't understand. what is NSFW cause i suck with abbreviation.
Not Safe for Work.
It is used to warn the recipient to not open the message at the office or near young children, because the message contains sexual or repulsive content. Commonly, NSFW is used when users like to forward lewd jokes or crude videos to their friends. Considering that millions of people read their personal email/browse the internet at work, the NSFW warning is helpful in saving people potential embarassment with their coworkers or supervisor.
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@Tengukami: Thanks for the info!
Please watch warmly for first post, then.
@Drakums: Happy now?
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[nforza]IT'S WATCH WARMLY YOU IGNORAMUSES[/nforza]
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Uuuh, to anyone who played Touhou Pocket Wars 2nd, what is Kasen's theme original song?
Here's the link to those who haven't played the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fds9SncZJAw
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Uuuh, to anyone who played Touhou Pocket Wars 2nd, what is Kasen's theme original song?
Here's the link to those who haven't played the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fds9SncZJAw
It sounds like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8gBqd3zFo)
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Sounds to me there might be elements from a bunch of different songs thrown in and an overlying melody. There are a few parts where it seems similar to things like Evening Star, and the saw wave part sounds like Dream Express. In any case, I don't think there's an original.
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Sounds to me there might be elements from a bunch of different songs thrown in and an overlying melody. There are a few parts where it seems similar to things like Evening Star, and the saw wave part sounds like Dream Express. In any case, I don't think there's an original.
Alright, that's kind of what I supposed. Thanks for the response.
It sounds like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8gBqd3zFo)
Eeeeeh, somewhat c:
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I thought Kasen's official unofficial theme song was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcixxFWR5Mk
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I thought Kasen's official unofficial theme song was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcixxFWR5Mk
There is a rather large resemblance. It's pretty radically different from the other remixes though (who usually sticks to the style of the original), so I guess they went crazy on this one and made a half-original theme.
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Oh hey, I loaded up IN to check on the rabbits again.
Stage 5 started with a bunch of high mobility enemies (always moving, 3 facings) who have rabbit ears and no wings. Every enemy after that is a low mobility enemy (always facing front, fixed movement, has a small magic circle) with wings.
At very least, we can now confirm the first wave of enemies as rabbits. And it's easy to conclude that the enemies after them are all intended to be rabbits. But why do those rabbits have wings?
All rabbit sprites are modified fairy sprites. Perhaps without wings, the animation cycle of those rabbit sprites would look very weird, a problem that doesn't exist for the first wave of rabbits, who moved constantly and may change their facings. So instead of drawing new rabbit sprites that look natural, ZUN kept the wings on them.
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Momiji's MoF profile states that she's able to see up to 1000 li/ri ahead, which would translate into anywhere from 400 to 2400 miles.
Is Gensokyo even big enough for that?
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Probably not. Although I cannot find any direct evidence, using Japanese li, 4000km is longer than Japan itself.
千里眼(lit. thousand li eyes) could mean clairvoyance, among other meanings.
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The Yatsugatake mountain range itself is about 30km north to south, which would be a rough rough rough rough estimate of Gensokyo's size (i.e. from around there to 100km, but probably less).
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Ok, so I have a Touhou OC, so I have two questions that are relevant to her.
1. First, my OC is a homunculous. Her personality is logical, emotionless (she'll 'learn' emotions later), and she's fairly ignorant in subjects that don't involve science or mathematics, including social skills.
Would my character be regarded as...
A) As if she were exactly human, although maybe as a bit weird.
B) As a sort of yokai race that would be considered 'human' and not viewed as suspicion (like the Lunarians, or theranthropes like Keine).
C) As a sort of midway point neither hated by humans nor hunted by yokai (such as yokai-human crossbreeds like Rinnosuke)
D) Considered to be your stock yokai, so far as the human-yokai dynamic is concerned.
2) If she's considered to be human, then quick question. My character only recently arrived in Gensokyo (she was created during a brief spike in belief in alchemy and homunculi, and ended up in Gensokyo when it wained). So she doesn't know much about the human-yokai dynamic. Therefore, she has concluded: "If some yokai see humans as being different enough from themselves to be food, then it is perfectly acceptable for me to kill and eat any yokai who tries to kill and eat me. Turnabout is fair play." I was wondering what the general opinion would probably be from humans, and possible consequences from her eating the yokai that try to hunt and kill her.
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I'm pretty sure she'd just be considered a youkai.
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Notably, very few (if any) youkai actually hunt, so the whole eating scenario is a bit implausible. They're supplied food in Gensokyo's current state.
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If you define homunculus as "human created artificially via alchemy", then it's pretty likely that most people (or rather, most non-people) will regard her as an artificially-created human. Something that seems human but isn't quite so. Probably not full-on youkai, though. Humans themselves are probably not quite as perceptive so they'll probably think she's just a rather strange human.
I'm not really sure if killing youkai is something you can do in the first place.
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even if you killed a youkai it wouldn't die
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Rough indeed, as Gensokyo's Yatsugatake is taller than Mt. Fuji...I don't know if that would affect that estimate at all though.
Also, is it ever stated as to how long youkai generally live?
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Also, is it ever stated as to how long youkai generally live?
Varies, just as other youkai characteristics. Don't know about younger youkai, elder ones are thousands of years. So, Yukari is 1,200 at least, Watatsukis are about 1500, Eirin is "hundred of millions"...
But generally, since youkai don't advance, there's not much difference in, say, Yuyuko's thousand and Remilia's 500.
Stronger youkai usually manage to live longer. Though, we probably can say, e.g. Cirno is elder than Suika, since she represents cold, and cold is oh so ancient thing, while oni cannot be older than the japaneze people.
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It's difficult to say whether or not fairies actually exist for as long as their natural phenomenon does. It wouldn't be very wise to take the extra step in asserting as such.
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Stronger youkai usually manage to live longer. Though, we probably can say, e.g. Cirno is elder than Suika, since she represents cold, and cold is oh so ancient thing, while oni cannot be older than the japaneze people.
So if someone kills Cirno all the cold from Gensokyo will end?
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So if someone kills Cirno all the cold from Gensokyo will end?
I'd like to see how Cirno will be killed. :3
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fairies don't die even when they're killed
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So, how fast is Aya exactly? I know for one that Youmu is very fast. Her spellcards "Blind Cut "Roukan's Bullet-Cutting Third Eye" and "200 Yojana in 1 Slash" seem to indicate that she can indeed move at very high speeds. Nevertheless, Aya is still 'the fastest in Gensokyo'. I take it that Aya moves at hypersonic (if not greater) speeds?
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Not sure if there's even an official source for her being "the fastest in Gensokyo". She is certainly considered fast among other tengu though (PMiSS article).
Something like that shouldn't be taken at face value, though. If such a moniker existed, Aya might only be the de facto "fastest in Gensokyo" just because she's fast in general.
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At some point you have to wonder how to compare speed when said maximum speed are basically impossible to capture in Gensokyo. More than that, you need to wonder how useful that extra speed even is, if it's useful at all. I'd focus more on related skills that compliment that speed, such as reaction time and reflex, acceleration, control, decision-making speed; stuff like that. Your speed is useless if you can't use it appropriately.
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Not sure if there's even an official source for her being "the fastest in Gensokyo". She is certainly considered fast among other tengu though (PMiSS article).
There's an official scene somewhere (I think Silent Sinner in Blue?) that goes something like this.
Remilia: I'm the fastest and strongest in Gensokyo!
Reimu: I don't know. I thought Aya was the fastest.
Marisa: And Suika's really really strong.
Remilia: Shut up!
I forget where else it was brought up, if it was.
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One of StB's hints says something like "Let's utilize the fastest speed in Gensokyo!"
However, along with what Drake said, speed isn't such a black and white thing anyway. You've got things like travel speed, how quickly you can dodge a bullet, how quickly you can tie your shoes, etc. Those are all different.
And by the way, Youmu having a spellcard called "200 Yojana in 1 Slash" doesn't necessarily mean she can actually do that, assuming that's the only source for the idea.
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Not sure if there's even an official source for her being "the fastest in Gensokyo". She is certainly considered fast among other tengu though (PMiSS article).
Something like that shouldn't be taken at face value, though. If such a moniker existed, Aya might only be the de facto "fastest in Gensokyo" just because she's fast in general.
Aya is most likely the fastest in Gensokyo. She, herself, claims such and other characters have used her as reference when it comes to speed. Youmu may travel fast, but Aya is able to take a picture of herself in a photo, which is mentioned in one of the articles.
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How much motivation % can you lose from lasers and still get a silver medal? It seems to be some, but not much.
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How much motivation % can you lose from lasers and still get a silver medal? It seems to be some, but not much.
If you mean the Fairy Wars flashlights, getting your motivation drained by the flashlights doesn't affect what medal you get at all. Here's an example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqw5uyvVGLY) of being drained to 0% and still getting a gold medal, since the only requirements are not using ice and not getting hit.
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Someone knows how the Game Progress Percentage count system works in the game? Today I beat Reisen in IN but the game over because of the time, when I went to the Game Stats screen I only got 56% of the game cleared.
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Huh, I could have sworn I was failing cards where I was being drained but never hit. Guess I somehow didn't notice...
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Someone knows how the Game Progress Percentage count system works in the game? Today I beat Reisen in IN but the game over because of the time, when I went to the Game Stats screen I only got 56% of the game cleared.
Seeing as it's only possible to game over by running out time if you already used a continue, I would guess that it just gave you the percentage for how far you got before the -first- game over.
I'm just guessing though.
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I'm curious how it gets that number too though, because it seems really off sometimes - I believe dying to Flandre at QED says something like 85%, which seems way too low by any measurement.
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Since Sunny can control refraction of light, Luna controls the propagation of sounds and Star can sense moving objects does that mean together they can make themselves completely invisible, silent and be able to not get detected by sensors or something?
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Since Sunny can control refraction of light, Luna controls the propagation of sounds and Star can sense moving objects does that mean together they can make themselves completely invisible, silent and be able to not get detected by sensors or something?
Sunny and Luna need the sun and the moon for their powers to work, respectively, so they probably wouldn't be able to use their powers at the same time. That aside, they're also not very smart and would probably get caught anyway even if they were somehow able to use all their powers at the same time. They can win at hide-and-seek, but not much else.
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Sunny and Luna need the sun and the moon for their powers to work, respectively, so they probably wouldn't be able to use their powers at the same time. That aside, they're also not very smart and would probably get caught anyway even if they were somehow able to use all their powers at the same time. They can win at hide-and-seek, but not much else.
They don't need the moon and the sun for their powers to work, but it does strengthen them, since technically, the sun and the moon still exist, but just aren't completely in view. In fact, they both almost never use their powers alone; always together. They do become 100 % invisible and mute, but they're fairies, don't expect any mastermind plans to come out of that anyway. As you said, it's either lame pranks or hide-and-seek.
Since Sunny can control refraction of light, Luna controls the propagation of sounds and Star can sense moving objects does that mean together they can make themselves completely invisible, silent and be able to not get detected by sensors or something?
Not detected by sensors depends, but not really. They become invisible because the light is refracted and they become mute because sound is erased; That doesn't stop things like heat sensors, for example.
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I apologize if this has already been asked, but it just popped into my head.
Is Sanae fully a goddess? She seems to be referred to as the inhuman type of god the more games she appears in.
In UFO and Mountain of Faith, she calls herself a god/living god but isn't really specific.
In Hisoutensoku, her win quote against herself is "I wonder how everyone trains~", which after seeing Suwako's quote in the same game ("Gods can split themselves infinitely~") gave me the indication that Sanae could split herself and trained this way.
Also in the same game, Suwako says she's a living god and also says she's not human in the same sentence ("But Sanaeee, you're not a human, you're a living god, a miracle-worker...") albeit after Sanae calls herself "only human".
In Ten Desires she calls herself "a god in Gensokyo, working as a shrine maiden on the side".
Kind of confusing to me. As far as I know, she's a half-god, but :wat:
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She's biologically human as far as I know - at least I get the impression she's aged as a human, (given that she didn't know she was a goddess for most of her life, right?) unlike Suwako who looks about 10 after 2+ millennia. But as a descendent of a goddess, she has super-human powers.
It's also worth noting that "living god" (現人神) is the term used to refer to the emperors of Japan, similar to how many kings are traditionally viewed as descending from divinity, despite still being human.
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Touhou wiki says she's a Arahitogami; a human that gained enough faith to become divine while still being alive. So she was human and became a god later at life. Maybe she feels more like a human than a god, hence her "I'm just a human" comments.
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She is simultaneously human and god. If she died she would continue to exist as a god, and if she lost worshippers she would continue to exist as a human.
If Kanako lost worshippers she'd be reduced to a divine spirit, while Suwako would cease to exist.
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Random question that's been buzzing in my head for a long time:
Would/could a youkai eat another youkai? And would that count as cannibalism or only if they're the same type of youkai?
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Uh.
One official case I know is vengeful spirit's ability to possess others, what in youkai's case would be complete absorbtion of victim.
Another one is Yuyuko's dinner with Mystia, if I've got IN's story right.
If Kanako lost worshippers she'd be reduced to a divine spirit, while Suwako would cease to exist.
Right.
Sanae has plain human body, equipped with human soul and worshippers' faith.
Kanako doesn't have human body (only youkai one), she is a divine spirit (which isn't exactly human, SoPM states it can belong to, e. g., a group of people too) powered with faith. As she herself states, if she lost her worshippers, she'd become just another youkai.
Suwako belongs to the Eight Million Gods, Shinto's pantheon, and consists of pure faith.
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Why is Kurodani Yamame sometimes described as an underground idol?
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Since spell duels are not allowed to guarantee a win, does that mean even Rumia has a chance against Yukari?
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Why is Kurodani Yamame sometimes described as an underground idol?
According to her profile, she's popular underground due to her cheerful personality.
Since spell duels are not allowed to guarantee a win, does that mean even Rumia has a chance against Yukari?
In pure theory, yes.
You can certainly beat several of the strongest characters into crying with Cirno in PoFV and Hisoutensoku's non-story modes, although I don't think these are supposed to be events that actually took place, just "what-if" scenarios that may theoretically happen (unlike Cirno's story modes, or the Fairy Wars extra stage, where "victory" against a strong opponent means barely surviving).
As an aside, Cirno says in her Hisoutensoku win quote vs. Yukari:
That's it, isn't it? You're just pretending to understand
those hard-to-understand things you say, aren't you?
She might have a point.
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It would explain why Ran can't understand her equations; they're just gibberish. :V
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Why is Kurodani Yamame sometimes described as an underground idol?
According to her profile, she's popular underground due to her cheerful personality.
Of course, you have to note that the quote is pretty well-corrupted; Yamame being an idol isn't even hinted at. Also, it's interesting that it's said she's hated by the people she meets due to her powers, even though she'd never inflict disease without a reason, but anyone who talks with her knows this. It's more of a don't-judge-the-book-by-its-ability situation.
As for the spell card rules: as cuc says, the answer is yes, but it's much more than that, because saying it like that equates it to, say, winning in Go Fish rather than Poker, or Snakes and Ladders rather than Go. Danmaku clearly doesn't require much effort or magic power to produce, but it's largely about dodging ability and thought. You might not be able to go all-out, or use an ability to cheat, but abilities are almost always seen implemented in spell cards, and without some degree of magical and physical ability you can't really do much. Intelligence in putting your danmaku together, using an ability, and dodging is the other primary part, because that's where the big guns lie once each combatant can output more danmaku than they need. So although Rumia may be able to win against Yukari, all that's done is evening the playing field so that raw power and ability hax is taken out of the fight. Yukari is still leagues over Rumia.
Using Yukari as an example is funny though because she often dumbs herself down to the opponent's level to have an amusing fight. Yukari might as well lose just by virtue of playing around.
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@Spellcard rules: In theory, yes, Rumia can beat Yukari. Kind of like how Marisa can beat Reimu, even if Reimu is much better than Marisa. But, for this latter example, the odds are more fairly balanced so that the win rate isn't abysmal.
There are also some in game events that could have possibly happen showing that in theory, these things can happen. Like Cirno against Marisa in Great Fairy Wars or Cirno's story mode in Hisoutensoku, where she beat some people who should be stronger than her.
This victory condition would likely depend on the opponent too. As mentioned in the Grimoire of Marisa. Patchouli is what Marisa believes to be the one that understands spell card rules well, as she makes allowances in her spell cards for her opponent to beat. Yukari and Suika, not so much. Yukari's spell cards are generally more like real combat. This could be because she came from back in the day where spell card rules do not exist. Suika, Marisa complains that her spell cards don't look much like spell cards and instead, it is just her beating you up.
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Cirno actually lost against Marisa in GFW. Marisa was also drunk and possibly using literal flashlights.
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Did she? I thought Cirno officially had the win, even if Cirno was more beat up than Marisa at the end.
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Marisa complains that her spell cards don't look much like spell cards...
As we remember, Marisa have a danmaku that is not exactly... danmaku (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8mpyyjiE5M).
One of fanfics states that Yukari's spellcards are harmless by itselves, but they mark the target on hit, and later Yukari can apply some border manipulation to the marked victim. Funny thing is that, formally, it doesn't violate spellcard rules, since a spell itself isn't lethal.
And the answer is (suddenly) no, just because Rumiya is dumb, her spellcards are dumb, and her dodging is dumb. :V
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Hatate watched the whole fight. Both her and Marisa had just come back from a flower-viewing party, and Cirno showed up going "I'm the strongest! Give me a new challenger!". Hatate led Cirno to Marisa, Marisa gladly accepted and basically made a game out of it, what with using harmless lights instead of lasers and actually saying "let's see how much fun I can have". Hatate thought to herself "it's alright if the human loses, it's all fun anyways" but she stresses that Marisa basically trounced her. The main point of the article is that humans aren't nearly as powerless as youkai think they are.
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From that article, I was under the impression that Cirno won, if only by luck. Or it could be that Cirno won, but Marisa let her win. It did not sound like Cirno lost that fight though.
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You're probably confused by what Hatate's thoughts were before they fought. Here's a slightly more verbatim translation than what's on the wiki, even though I'm pretty sure the wiki translation gets it across pretty well:
私は今回の決闘であわよくば人間がやられてもいいや、と思っていたがそんな危険性はまるで無く、人間の成長の目覚ましさが見て取れたわけである。
I was thinking that in this match, even if by chance the human lost, it would be fine, but that sort of risk was completely nonexistent; I got to witness the splendid growth (in strength) of a human.
And of course the last two paragraphs are entirely about how much stronger humans have become and how youkai shouldn't be underestimating them. Personally, I also take Hatate's wording of 今回の決闘で (in this/today's match) to imply something about her overall thoughts. "In this match in particular, because Marisa isn't being serious at all and treating it like a game with a kid, there's the possibility that she'll lose, and even if she loses it's fine with me because that's funny". In other words, she wasn't expecting Cirno to put up much of a fight to begin with, but given the handicaps Hatate thought Marisa could lose by some stroke of luck. However, even with those handicaps Cirno got nowhere close to beating Marisa.
The Tengu are a youkai race that have been alive to witness many generations of humans, and she notes that many youkai still think that humans are as weak as they used to be several hundreds of years ago. Hatate however witnessed first-hand that humans have grown such that some are able to play around with fairies without any fear of death, and by saying that youkai shouldn't underestimate them, ponders that the humans may at some point become strong enough to actually rival youkai.
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A friend of mine says that ZUN changed Yuuka's design in Touhou 9 because the latter found her original design too intimidating. Is this true?
Though I like short-hair girls more, I think Yuuka looks better with long hair. Pants also make her look better, and her wings in Kioh Gyoku are pure win.
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The only outfit change from MS to PoFV is pants to skirt, and I guess her red eyes. Not entirely sure how it was intimidating. In any case, I can't confirm it, so unless they can tell you where they heard it or if it was from an interview or profile notes or something that gives some more information, it's better off ignoring (not that it's really an important tidbit in the first place).
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Thanks for the quick reply!
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Well....... while reading Byakuren's article on Touhou Wiki (more specifically on her "relationships" part) I came across this:
Koishi Komeiji
Byakuren believes that Koishi's present "thoughtless" state is close to enlightenment, and wants her to join the temple.
And then on Myouren temple's article:
Residents
Byakuren Hijiri (Buddhist monk)
Shou Toramaru (Devotee to Bishamonten)
Nazrin (Shou's underling)
Ichirin Kumoi and Unzan (Guards)
Minamitsu Murasa (Captain of the ship)
Nue Houjuu (Currently living here)
Kyouko Kasodani (Priest in-training)
Mamizou Futatsuiwa (Currently living here)
Koishi Komeiji (Nonordained member)
So... when, where and how did Byakuren meet Koishi anyway...? Was it on a print work or something? Pretty sure it wasn't on a game... so, I really want someone to clarify how this event happened to me.
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Symposium of Post-mysticism Part 4 : The Present and Future of the Hated
The 12th footnote says that she was invited to the temple.
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Byakuren heard of Koishi's condition from Kanako during the symposium, and invited Koishi to the temple.
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So, does that mean Koishi abandoned her older sister and is now part of Byakuren's crew, just like Shou, Murasa and the others...?
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So, does that mean Koishi abandoned her older sister and is now part of Byakuren's crew, just like Shou, Murasa and the others...?
Koishi doesn't have a mind, so she has more or less no idea what she's doing, and knowing the way she behaves, she'll mindlessly wander away from the Myouren Temple and never return again.
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It's pretty much a joke on Byakuren and her all-welcoming nature versus Koishi acting randomly and whimsically.
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Um, I guess this is a misc question, and since you're in this thread all the time anyway-
Drake, is your current avatar from a larger picture? I tried reverse image searching but it just finds your posts.
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Interesting, this is the third time I've been asked for a source. It's funny because the artist's normal art style is completely different.
http://www.pixiv.net/member.php?id=133853
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No kidding, it sure is.
Thanks.
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It's Nazrin crossed over with Kaede Takagaki (http://www.project-imas.com/wiki/Kaede_Takagaki), a character from the Idolmasters mobile game, Cinderella Girls.
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Ah. (http://www.project-imas.com/wiki/File:Tumblr_m1hi5ojg1p1qbr6vwo1_500.jpg)
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How much spiritual power equals the faith of one human? You'd think the faith of one human or youkai wouldn't be much at all, yet Kanako and Suwako can allegedly pull off some very impressive feats despite getting faith from only one mountain of youkai. I'm asking this because it boggles the mind what more well-known gods would be capable of then, like Amaterasu. If such a 'small' religion could power such a significant deity (for Gensokyo standards) as Kanako it's frightening to think what that means for worldwide religions.
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It's entirely possible that the god's power is not even proportional to faith in it, particularly in Gensokyo. I would wager that the god is inherently powerful, and as long as they have some faith they can use their abilities. Instead, a need for a large base of faith is primarily for their influence on the population, allowing them to act for that population. A god you don't believe in can't really help you as that god. A god many people believe in grants the god influence over those people and allows for direct interaction. This is fairly obviously Kanako's goal, rather than accumulating sheer power. Having sheer power proportional to faith makes no sense. Rather, the mechanisms for faith in Touhou follow heuristics that are very similar to how they act in real life, but are applied in a world where said gods physically exist and exert influence. It's good stuff.
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How much spiritual power equals the faith of one human? You'd think the faith of one human or youkai wouldn't be much at all, yet Kanako and Suwako can allegedly pull off some very impressive feats despite getting faith from only one mountain of youkai. I'm asking this because it boggles the mind what more well-known gods would be capable of then, like Amaterasu. If such a 'small' religion could power such a significant deity (for Gensokyo standards) as Kanako it's frightening to think what that means for worldwide religions.
On our sos-dan.ru, there's a guy who call himself a god, he should be familiar with this mechanics then.
Once he stated three ways of becoming a god. There was said that the faith of human in himself theoretically may be enough to turn him into god (probably living one, like Sanae). I think, Kanako would be able to do it too, since she particulary is a youkai (divine spirit); but Suwako wouldn't - she belongs to Yaoyorozu no Kami who consist of pure faith.
ZUN himself had stated that a local god often has more power in his area that global ones. That mentioned guy explains it so "In fact, local gods have more visitors. Especially when we count amount of faith to a unit of area of divine barrier" (or like that, translation may suck (http://sos-dan.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=100849#post100849)).
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It's entirely possible that the god's power is not even proportional to faith in it, particularly in Gensokyo. I would wager that the god is inherently powerful, and as long as they have some faith they can use their abilities. Instead, a need for a large base of faith is primarily for their influence on the population, allowing them to act for that population. A god you don't believe in can't really help you as that god. A god many people believe in grants the god influence over those people and allows for direct interaction. This is fairly obviously Kanako's goal, rather than accumulating sheer power. Having sheer power proportional to faith makes no sense. Rather, the mechanisms for faith in Touhou follow heuristics that are very similar to how they act in real life, but are applied in a world where said gods physically exist and exert influence. It's good stuff.
Huh, I never looked it that way. In fact, this indeed makes more sense, and fits with Kanako's character and desires, and maybe even Suwako's slight lack of interest on the matter. If power really were proportionate to faith the scaling would get pretty ridiculous eventually.
It reminds me of the game Black & White, where you need more followers to increase your area of influence.
On our sos-dan.ru, there's a guy who call himself a god, he should be familiar with this mechanics then.
Once he stated three ways of becoming a god. There was said that the faith of human in himself theoretically may be enough to turn him into god (probably living one, like Sanae). I think, Kanako would be able to do it too, since she particulary is a youkai (divine spirit); but Suwako wouldn't - she belongs to Yaoyorozu no Kami who consist of pure faith.
ZUN himself had stated that a local god often has more power in his area that global ones. That mentioned guy explains it so "In fact, local gods have more visitors. Especially when we count amount of faith to a unit of area of divine barrier" (or like that, translation may suck (http://sos-dan.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=100849#post100849)).
At first I was unaware that there was such a difference between Kanako and Suwako, and would ask where you came across that information, but i just now stumbled upon it in Suwako's SoPM article. I'm going to give the whole thing a good read now. I've not given it too much attention beforehand. How exactly would one become a living god with one's own faith though? Is it Gurren Lagann style 'believing in yourself'? :V
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So far it seems like Sanae is a living goddess due to her divine blood inherited from Suwako, rather than anyone's faith. Perhaps faith alone can't turn any living human into a god.
Also, I suspect that Sanae's whole "she's a living goddess, but she's a very ordinary person" thing might be partially a jab at the Empire of Japan and State Shintoism, which worshipped the emperors as living gods. The word "arahitogami" itself seems coined specifically to refer to the divine status of the emperor. I've seen people who thought ZUN misused this word; I think it's probably intentional.
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As I remember, Sanae still has her own faith. We should read her MoF article, it was probably said there.
How exactly would one become a living god with one's own faith though? Is it Gurren Lagann style 'believing in yourself'? :V
I don't know, we should ask the guy himself. :V
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On the source of Kochiya priestesses' divinity, the MoF profile says their secret arts allow them to control weather, resulting in the populace worshipping them, but I seem to recall another canon source saying it's due to their divine ancestor. Then again, maybe their secret arts are effective in the first place because they are Suwako's descendants. Has this turned into a chicken-and-egg problem?
I've been going back and forth about how to explain it.
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Has this turned into a chicken-and-egg problem?
No, chicken-and-egg problem is Suwako's descendants. They are humans, who was born by a god, who consist of pure faith, which is gathered from humans.
Hmm... maybe, since Sanae is a living god, her faith costs a bit more that that of generic human and is enough to maintain her own goddess state?
God who believes in himself. That's the true Chicken-Egg. :3
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Alright, sorry to cut the discussion... and I'm not even sure if I'm supposed to post this here, but I thought it'd be unnecessary to resurrect The Last Comer's topic just to ask this. Anyway, does anyone know a way to prevent the lag on the game? Like.... for seriously, I've even tried th dnh vpatch on full screen and it made absolutely no difference, even after downloading this (http://www.mediafire.com/?jw3u6z1mroxdo6t) version of the executable.
Can someone help me?
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I think the vsync doesn't help with 'that' kind of lagging.
The manual says to try turning on フラットモード(Flat Mode, turns off the effect) and/or スーパーフラットモード(Superflat Mode, turns off the background) in the Options.
Or to try setting 描画間隔(Drawing Interval) to 可変(Variable) in the Danmakufu config.exe, but it might feel like playing in 80fps.
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Alrighty I've tried googling for this but I can't seem to find an English translation of the config file for Touhou Sky Arena...anyone here have one? Also is it possible to play the game at 1366x768? If so how can I do that? Sorry If these are questions that have easily found answers but I couldn't find em.
Also how huggable is Cirno :3
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I'm not sure where to post this, so I guess this place sounds suitable.
Does anyone have a completed Touhou Soccer 2 save? Not the game itself (Obviously), only a save with the characters and such unlocked.
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Hmm, Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if Patchouli has any frog books? :V
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Her library is huge. It can be assumed yes. Why is that even a question.
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Well, I'm a bit new here and I had nothing else to ask.
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Just want to check some facts:
Shikieiki's theme is the longest Touhou boss theme (Windows only)
Rikako's theme is the longest Touhou boss theme (PC-98 and Windows)
PCB Stage 4 theme is the longest Touhou stage theme (PC-98 and Windows)
Am I correct?
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Yep yep yep.
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Is there a patch that removes stage portions and midbosses in the games?
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No.
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When does ZUN usually announce a new installment in the series? I think TD was announced during February, right?
Thanks in advance!
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th13 : 2011-02-28 (2011-08-13)
th128 : 2010-07-23 (2010-08-14)
th125 : 2010-03-03 (2010-03-14)
th12 : 2009-02-26 (2009-08-15)
th11 : 2008-05-01 (2008-08-16)
th10 : 2007-05-18 (2007-08-17)
th095 : 2005-11-13 (2005-12-30)
The dates are based on ZUN's blog(http://kourindou.exblog.jp)
Usually... isn't a word that can be safely used here.
Although, I think that he would make an announcement around the end of February if he is planning a new game for summer Comiket.
In the Touhou games, is it possible to move in a direction that isn't the 8 directions by using a gamepad?
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In the Touhou games, is it possible to move in a direction that isn't the 8 directions by using a gamepad?
Nope.
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No.
Fine, is there a tool that allows you to remove stages and midbosses?
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No. That thing doesn't exist too.
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Where was it stated that Udonge has the same powers as any moon rabbit, and is just better at using them? How are these powers referred to - insanity powers, eye powers or what? Can all moon rabbits drive people mad with their powers, or is that just her signature technique?
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Can someone explain how doujin music circles work? As in, what do its members DO that makes an album "theirs"?
I mean, with some groups it's totally clear - you look up an album of theirs, and their members composed all the songs on it. Makes sense. But then you have some of these prolific groups like IOSYS where, if you check their individual albums, quite a few of them don't have a single song composed or performed by any one of their members as listed on the wiki. So... what did they do that makes it their album? Just being the ones to market it at the convention?
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There would be jobs like organisation, marketing, running websites, artwork, etc. I guess.
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Where was it stated that Udonge has the same powers as any moon rabbit, and is just better at using them? How are these powers referred to - insanity powers, eye powers or what? Can all moon rabbits drive people mad with their powers, or is that just her signature technique?
Her power is "manipulating waves", that includes brain waves. Don't know about rest of the Moon, though.
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Where was it stated that Udonge has the same powers as any moon rabbit, and is just better at using them? How are these powers referred to - insanity powers, eye powers or what? Can all moon rabbits drive people mad with their powers, or is that just her signature technique?
Adding to the above, Reisen is also implied to be able to manipulate other types of waves in PoFV, such as sound waves. [Giving her the same power as Luna Child]
She can likely manipulate light waves as well, giving her the same power as Sunny Milk.
'Wave manipulation' probobly extends to the entire electromagnetic spectrum, to be frank.
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Adding to the above, Reisen is also implied to be able to manipulate other types of waves in PoFV, such as sound waves. [Giving her the same power as Luna Child]
She can likely manipulate light waves as well, giving her the same power as Sunny Milk.
'Wave manipulation' probobly extends to the entire electromagnetic spectrum, to be frank.
Does that technically mean she can turn any electromagnetic wave radioactive by bringing it higher into the spectrum? (X Ray, Gamma ray) That would be pretty insane if she can radiate everyone.
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Yeah, what I'm asking is if other moon rabbits can manipulate waves, and if they can use it to drive people mad or just to communicate. (I assume their psychic link is based on wave manipulation, though maybe their brains are quantumly entangled or something I dunno)
If everyone where Reisen comes from can manipulate waves, but only she's good enough to drive people mad with it, then claiming to have madness powers would make more sense.
She can likely manipulate light waves as well, giving her the same power as Sunny Milk.
I'd say the eye lasers count as light manipulation. Though if she has radar powers, that would still explain how she saw Sunny while she was invisible.
I just want to see if it makes her better at surfing. :V
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Wild extrapolation is never a good idea. Reisen's ability in particular is really handwavy. It's best to only assume she has the abilities she's been shown to have, like the laserbeam, radar, madness inducing, etc. I would guess she has at least similar abilities to the three fairies.
Besides the TELEPATHY between moon rabbits though, I can't recall anything implying they have similar abilities.
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Sunny Milk and Luna Child's powers are both subsets of Udonge's power, and weaker by a huge margin (Shanghai Alice Correspondence of SaBND Chapter 3, never translated into English?). Detecting them is trivial for Udonge.
I don't think it's directly stated that all moon rabbits can manipulate waves. According to the IN backstory given in Kaguya's profile, (a more literal translation) "...Reisen received a transmission in the rabbit wave used by her fellow moon rabbits. This is moon rabbits' special ability, allowing them to communicate with their large ears, no matter the distance."
So it's only confirmed that other moon rabbits can use the "rabbit wave" communication. Udonge's power is probably an unusual development.
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telekinesis between moon rabbits
I think you mean "telepathy."
OK, I've got one: do we have any reason, other than secondhand sources which lead to "I heard ____", to think that ZUN changed stuff for the Windows games because Amusement Makers owns the copyright on the PC-98 games?
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Amusement Makers owns the copyright on the PC-98 games
(http://lurkmore.so/images/d/d0/Cirno_Slow.jpg)
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that reply doesn't make sense
In any case Muffin, I think that sort of question will lead up to trying to prove the null, since I couldn't reliably say that he absolutely didn't change things because of copyright. It doesn't make any sense to begin with though, and seems to really just be a "something that sort of sounds like it's true and it works for my point so I'll just pretend it is true" explanation people like to use when talking about the status of PC98 being canon or not. I don't think there's any real basis, but would welcome evidence to the contrary.
One point against AM "owning" the copyright is simply that their membership changes as students graduate. Even if others were involved in making the PC98 games, AM as a group shouldn't really hold any power, since it probably isn't really an entity that can claim copyrights, although the relevant members could.
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Reisen firing "ESP waves" from her eyes to communicate with moon rabbits (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Hisoutensoku/Spell_Cards/Reisen_Udongein_Inaba#Spell_Card_3)
Reisen's IN + PoFV profiles both say (with different phrasing) "A rabbit from the moon. In her red eyes dwell far greater power of insanity than the rabbits of the earth."
That vaguely implies that moon rabbits in general have insanity powers.
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OK, I've got one: do we have any reason, other than secondhand sources which lead to "I heard ____", to think that ZUN changed stuff for the Windows games because Amusement Makers owns the copyright on the PC-98 games?
No, but others continue to believe it. Personally, I think it's hogwash, and there is no copyright conflict, bad blood, or anything of the sort. There are admittedly some reasons to think that could be the case, but otherwise, just no.
First, AM is "just" a university hobby circle. Not an actual company, like I've seen some say when repeating the PC-98 copyright argument. Even if there was copyright, would anyone actually care to enforce or make an issue of it? Second, he used Mima on one of his album covers. So, it's not that he can't use her, he just doesn't want to. Third, he participated in Seihou, which if I have my timing right, he already graduated by that time, at least during the second game. It could always just be a senpai's favor, though. Fourth, he used some of AM's resources when making EoSD, which would be after Seihou 2. Still, neither of which would seem to say he was on the outs, or in conflict, or anything.
However, like I said, it doesn't mean a copyright doesn't exist. It could, and I've seen some say that this is why ZUN is so touchy about copyright these days. Because he possibly came upon copyright problems during the making of EoSD or PCB and it was since then that his stance changed. I've also seen the number of supposed expy characters around this time mentioned as an argument in favor. This theory says he couldn't use Shinki, Yumeko, or Yuuka, so he made Remilia, Sakuya, and Yukari, or changed Alice/Yuuka enough that they couldn't be called the same character. It's clearly all speculation and no fact, and some of it a stretch, but who knows.
In the end, though, I think ZUN is just the type that doesn't like to look back. He may think of PC-98 as being particularly unrefined and most of all, doesn't want to dredge up old creations and try to awkwardly fit them into current Touhou, when he'd much rather make new ones. Especially not 10-15+ years after the fact now, when the chance or any desire to has passed, or when there are some that clearly wouldn't fit. You know, the actual reason ZUN has said as to why he hasn't included many old characters.
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As for the last paragraph though, he's definitely acknowledged that he doesn't like to look back on things hes created and see that he hasn't tried his hardest to make it work, and that's why the current settings don't have this problem anymore. Having nearly all of the Windows characters be even a minimal part of a later story, or have cameos that actually fit the scenario, or have them turn into playable characters; this is a clear demonstration that he doesn't feel as if his earlier (Windows) characters aren't worth bringing back, since I think by the time EoSD came around, he started to put some real thought into the character dynamics because he realized the earlier (PC98) ones weren't well-thought-out. I would argue that Alice and Yuuka (and Reimu and Marisa, to an extent) were brought back precisely because he felt that those characters could belong in the "new" scenario that he created without any issues. Well, Alice not so much since she was changed a lot, but the fact that he at least brought one character back shows he wanted to keep some things. His email describing that "it would be hard to bring old characters back because it'd be awkward" seems to match my thoughts on ZUN's stance.
That being said, it's perplexing as to why Mima hasn't made a return, but if she hasn't by now it's likely she never will. Not that I've thought about it a lot, but the main reason I would see is that he wanted to give Marisa more freedom as a character, whereas if Mima was still in the picture it might be tough to work around her. You might see a similarity of that with Youmu and Yuyuko, except those two obviously share their dynamic and would be silly to separate.
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Marisa inherited a lot of Mima's personality anyways, really. Although Mima did reappear on the cover of one of ZUN's retro-music CDs at least.
Even Yuuka was changed, really.
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I've heard that thing about Marisa taking on Mima's personality a couple times, and I can't say I see it. I think Mima was pretty aloof in Mystic Square, and she boasted a lot and lied about being stronger than she actually is. Marisa was perhaps slightly similar at the time, but if anything she's actually been getting less similar to Mima over time.
Personally I don't think Mima would have clashed so much with the newer games either, as he had already softened her character quite a but by the end of Mystic Square. I might even go so far as to say that she would "fit right in." But, you know. I of course don't know ZUN's reasons for leaving her out, but I doubt it was because he couldn't. (He kept Reimu and Marisa, after all.) And that's what everyone's been saying anyway, so yeah.
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New question; What does Last Remote even mean?
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I wouldn't say that Mima's personality has been taken over, more her role. In the PC98 games, both Mima and Marisa had the role of "Person who hangs around the shrine a lot and
annoys is friends with Reimu". There's a reason there are far more comedy duos than trios, it's because it's much easier to keep a decent, even dynamic going between two people than three. It would likely have been a pain to keep a trio going, so he cut one out. At the same time, only the same two would be boring, hence Sakuya, Youmu and Sanae became player characters for a time too.
Or at least, that's how I view it. It's probably completely wrong.
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New question; What does Last Remote even mean?
It means that Satori really really wanted to watch Supernatural but Koishi really wanted to watch The Office and Satori was all KOISHI I AM GOING TO WATCH SUPERNATURAL AND THAT'S FINAL and Koishi was all SCREW THE POLICE I DO WHAT I WANT and Satori kicked Koishi out of the Palace but not before Koishi stole the last remote, knowing that Satori is too lazy to get up off her ass and change channels manually.
Or just this. (http://uriko777.deviantart.com/art/Koishi-has-the-Last-Remote-197936589)
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That was hilarious enough to be valid.
Note to self; Last Remote means Satori and Koishi have great television shows tastes.
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New question; What does Last Remote even mean?
According to Moto-Neta wiki (http://www.toho-motoneta.net/index.php?%C5%EC%CA%FD%C3%CF%CE%EE%C5%C2%2F%A2%F6%A5%E9%A5%B9%A5%C8%A5%EA%A5%E2%A1%BC%A5%C8), it means this is the last time you'll be under remote mission control and calling for Remote Spirit Strike (your bombs in SA come from your partner). The evidence it gives is Marisa/Nitori's Extra dialogue:
Koishi: Do you have multiple personalities? (Referring to your invisible partner, a common reaction throughout SA)
Marisa: From now on, the other personalities are out of business.
I find this explanation believable.
Also probably unrelated to the meaning of the title, in the music comment, ZUN says "the song title has no relation to a certain shooting game", which is referring to Last Resort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Resort_%28video_game%29).
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Wait, it might have an actual more-or-less valid answer? Dang, now I can't just repost that every time someone asks. :( Thanks, though!
Question of my own since I can't read it: is that site the Japanese answer t' our TouhouWiki, or something else?
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I think this (http://thwiki.info/) is a Japanese Touhou wiki, anyway.
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Most Japanese Touhou wikis are slightly older than the English Touhou Wiki. The THWiki.info one is sort of a central hub and hosts the Touhou popularity poll, which while unofficial, did attract ZUN himself to vote in it once (he voted Reimu, Youmu, Mokou and Yukari).
The Moto-Neta wiki specializes in researching the cultural references in Touhou.
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What was the reaction among fans when Mima appeared on the cover of Akyu's Untouched Score vol.4?
Thanks in advance!
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How Watatsuki and Houraisan are connected? They don't seem to be relatives, though, both families are leads of the Moon.
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I don't think all of the princesses are stated to be descendants of one particular figure, so I don't think they necessarily have to be directly related somehow. The Watatsuki are clearly in reference to the daughters of the dragon god Watatsumi, named Toyotama-hime and Tamayori-hime. Kaguya is said to have been a princess, but nothing is said about her lineage, and her family name is never stated in her backstory. Because of this, and because Mount Hourai is both unimportant to the Lunarians and the namesake of the Hourai Elixir, I think it's likely that the name Houraisan is one Kaguya took on herself.
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New question; What does Last Remote even mean?
This question isn't new, once I made this question here :V but @cuc's answer is the best that I've seen.
I have a question, is there some site or video showing a list of "defensive behaviors" from the Touhou bosses in the game? I don't know the correct word so I am calling it of "defensive behavior". It is the state that some bosses enter when you go to some place that can cheat the spellcard, some examples of this are:
* When you try to stay close of Kaguya in her "Buddhist Diamond" spellcard, she starts to shoot blue arrowheads;
* When you stay at the top of the screen on Marisa's "Love Storm - Starlight Typhoon" she starts to shoot very fast aimed stars;
* When you try to stay close of Keine in her "Three Sacred Treasures - Mirror "spellcard, she starts to shoot purple bullets;
* etc
If it does not exist I think that it could be interesting to create one list of these behaviors :P
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Tewi uses this attack as well. It mostly seems like something IN has; I can't think of any other game that has that sort of explicit safespot covering. Perhaps IN's pattern design was just lazy :V
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Yuyuko's first nonspell does it in PCB. I only know that from watching a tool assisted superplay. And maybe Remilia's second nonspell does it? Only by speeding up some bullets or something. It is mostly IN though, yeah. What's odd is that some of these really don't have safespots. There's no way you'd be able to stay up there anyway.
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I know a few of them. Mostly forgot them as I was typing, though.
Kogasa will ram you in if you get on top of her during the bubble like spellcard.
Futo will slowly glide upward if you try to get on top of her while she's on her nice bort.
If it does not exist I think that it could be interesting to create one list of these behaviors :P
I actually really like the idea.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think normal version of Yoshika has something like that. If you get to close to her during her first card, she'll shoot out that ring of big, red bullets at the very start of the card.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think normal version of Yoshika has something like that. If you get to close to her during her first card, she'll shoot out that ring of big, red bullets at the very start of the card.
Just fired up TD to try this out. She does indeed have personal space issues ...
Thirding the interest in a list of such bosses who flip out when you try to be slick, and what they do.
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UB: all bosses don't like close contact.
IN:
* When you try to stay close of Kaguya in her "Buddhist Diamond" spellcard, she starts to shoot blue arrowheads;
* When you stay at the top of the screen on Marisa's "Love Storm - Starlight Typhoon" she starts to shoot very fast aimed stars;
* When you try to stay close of Keine in her "Three Sacred Treasures - Mirror "spellcard, she starts to shoot purple bullets;
* Mystia. In her second spellcard she also likes to shot extra danmaku after destruction of her familiars.
* Yoshika, if you kill her during Seiga's first spell, will emit dense circle during her rivival.
* Seiga again, after killing the zombie in third non-spell, will throw more knives.
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What means UB? :V
Hmmm maybe it's a good idea to create a topic about this list to get some help to gather this information? What title would be good for it? "TARC" or "Help me Eirin"? We need an official word to define this behavior. After I could put this list on the wiki, make a video or something like.
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What means UB? :V
Hmmm maybe it's a good idea to create a topic about this list to get some help to gather this information? What title would be good for it? "TARC" or "Help me Eirin"? We need an official word to define this behavior. After I could put this list on the wiki, make a video or something like.
I recommend HME, as it relates to gameplay as opposed to fan stuff.
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What means UB (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/UB)? :V
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Is there a reason ZUN likes Alice so much?
There's Alice Maestra, Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17, or even Team Shanghai Alice, then Alice in Wonderland, the Grimoire of Alice, and of course Alice Margatroid herself. One of the few characters he deemed worthy of being brought back from PC-98, being "a little special", as he says in his comment for Doll Judgment, and apparently she was also playable in the IaMP and SWR demos, and also present in Soku. etc. etc. you know it
I have the creeping feeling the answer as simple as "he likes the name Alice and she was designed for him to like her" (aya much), but apparently he didn't vote for her in the one (confirmed) popularity poll he partook in.
But yeah, what is with ZUN and Alice?
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Any Pre-Alice Margatroid use of Alice was mostly him just using the name because he happens to find it pretty. It's not even related to the character.
Then, from the Alice Margatroid herself and onward, I have no idea. Are we even supposed to be surprised at the random characters' appearances? Sakuya and Sanae both randomly became playable, as did Youmu in TD, and PoFV's character roster was utter nonsense. I think it's safe to say ZUN doesn't actually plan ahead and just sticks who he wants in what he wants.
Aya was an exception, since she was made to allow him to make photography games instead of shooters, which is great in my opinion. (For I loved them.)
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Sakuya and Sanae both randomly became playable, as did Youmu in TD, and PoFV's character roster was utter nonsense.
I don't think it is all that random. If you look at the games, playable characters are stage 5 bosses and human. This includes Marisa as well. Well, I should say boss prior to the final boss.
Fighting games and Phantasmagoria games have a bigger roster, so you have non-human playable characters as well. I guess Imperishable Night would be an exception in that you have a human/youkai team.
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I know this is probably the wrong place to ask this, but are there any Free Downloadable Touhou Fangames? (I don't know if I should ask this here or Akyu's Arcade.)
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http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Fangames
There are a bunch in here, but you'll have to find out which are FTP by going to the author site. The browser games are all free, obviously.
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While I have checked a couple of pages, it's gonna take too long to read every page. all I need is just a short list of every free game.
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How does ZUN make sound effects?
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While I have checked a couple of pages, it's gonna take too long to read every page. all I need is just a short list of every free game.
You know, it'd take just as much effort for someone else to check the wiki and make a list as it would for you.
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How does ZUN make sound effects?
I wonder if he use Cubase for that as well.
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Is there any solid confirmation by Zun that Ichirin is a Wanyudo or Katawa-Guruma?
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I just did a quick check over Ichirin's material and found nothing, so I'm assuming whoever put that up there used her naming scheme or guesses as reference, which is not okay to put up on a wiki. I've removed it for the time being and put up a talk section in case there is a valid reason.
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I just did a quick check over Ichirin's material and found nothing, so I'm assuming whoever put that up there used her naming scheme or guesses as reference, which is not okay to put up on a wiki. I've removed it for the time being and put up a talk section in case there is a valid reason.
Thank you. And If you did that, then please do the same to Konngara's species. On the wiki, it says she is a "yaksha" which I found to be pretty stupid, because there's no official text about her at all saying such a thing (at least I could find nothing myself)
Whoever put that up was just basing on the "assumption" that she is a reference to Kongara Douji (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%9F%9C%E7%BE%AF%E7%BE%85%E7%AB%A5%E5%AD%90), Whose is one of Fudo Myo-o's eight great youths. But apart from her name showing up on the credits screen (Which isn't even on official kana), and the fact that she is an "Astral Knight", she is nothing more than just a random being in Jigoku with no Backstory or Dialogue whatsoever to work with. So, we can't confirm if she has any sort of connection with Fudo Myo-o or not (We don't even know if the latter exists in touhou universe to begin with). Besides, the only source saying that the original Kongara Douji is a Yaksha, is just a small passage of JAANUS (http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/k/kongaradouji.htm), So, there are no other available material confirming the same statement for that matter.
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Having [citation needed] is enough, since unlike Ichirin, people are less susceptible to running around claiming she's X type of youkai, and overall it's less important. What I did change was the reference, since it was directly implying Konngara (as in the character) is the yaksha, rather than the intended implication of Kongara Douji. Hopefully this would remove any confusion.
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http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_5 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_5)
Is Toyosatomimi no Miko actually the crown prince or the crown princess?
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http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_5 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_5)
Is Toyosatomimi no Miko actually the crown prince or the crown princess?
The original text is gender-neutral, so it really depends on whatever you decide Miko should be.
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http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_5 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_5)
Is Toyosatomimi no Miko actually the crown prince or the crown princess?
It all depends on whether Miko is based on Prince Shoutoku or not. If she isn't, then there's no issue.
If she is, (Which is extremely likely) then there may have been a tiiiiny mistake during resurrection. :derp:
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People had forgotten Miko's gender, as well as her mausoleum. As we know, Gensokyo contains not actual things and persons, but rather legends and myths. So, if people begin to think the prince was the princess, the legend located on the other side of the Hakurei barrier will be altered accordingly.
However, that seems to not work well with humans, since they themselves are the source of that legends.
So, hm, it's more likely that the prince had done genderswap during shikaisenization, since one can choose which body used object will turn into.
...like that.
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Persona 4 in Touhou. Aside from Inaba.
What about the tofu shop Marukyu? Because Maru means 'circle', and kyu means 'nine'. It hardly seems like a coincidence to me.
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People had forgotten Miko's gender, as well as her mausoleum. As we know, Gensokyo contains not actual things and persons, but rather legends and myths. So, if people begin to think the prince was the princess, the legend located on the other side of the Hakurei barrier will be altered accordingly.
However, that seems to not work well with humans, since they themselves are the source of that legends.
So, hm, it's more likely that the prince had done genderswap during shikaisenization, since one can choose which body used object will turn into.
...like that.
I don't think it's even an issue. ZUN directly notes this in Sanae's ending, and makes zero attempts to explain it or even hint at why Miko is a girl now. Until there's an explanation given, it's probably best to just say it's a tongue-in-cheek metajoke by ZUN.
Persona 4 in Touhou. Aside from Inaba.
What about the tofu shop Marukyu? Because Maru means 'circle', and kyu means 'nine'. It hardly seems like a coincidence to me.
Ammy: Way to be confusing, I was about to answer it and suddenly it didn't exist and it wasn't the latest post in any thread lol
It's 丸久, not 丸九. Note 久 is in her family name, 久慈川.
(http://i.imgur.com/3gIgphT.jpg)
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Unlike most other characters in Touhou, TD and SoPM leaves no doubt that Miko is Prince Shoutoku. As far as a possible official explanation goes, SoPM said shikasen can choose their appearance.
it's probably best to just say it's a tongue-in-cheek metajoke by ZUN
Touhou is permanently in tongue-in-cheek mode. Even when discussing the gravest issues.
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prince shotoku really just wanted to be the little girl
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When posts are merged with topics, they appear in the thread according to the time the post was made. I have no control over where in a thread they'll appear, sorry.
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I don't know, I'd think the fact that she was originally a male and then become female would be a quite major point in her story and would at least be hinted at in her omniscient profile. Isn't it more likely that her true gender was just lost to history? Occam's razor and all that. Or maybe she was always female and disguised herself as male to rule.
Or maybe the buddhist priests that sealed her changed her gender in every major record of her so people would forget even her real gender and make it even less likely that she'd be ressurected by the power of legends and oh my I'm making stupid theories again :V
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ZUN always writes no more than is necessary to convey the story, leaving the rest to your imagination.
Speaking of gender, in SSIB, the infamous Chapter 19 where Toyohime tied Yukari up and dumped exposition, Yukari all but spelt out that Kanako is Take-minakata, yet also unambiguously called Take-minakata "son of Ookuninushi". So is Kanako really Take-minakata? If she is, why is she female, and where's Yasakatome, wife of Take-minakata? ZUN would only say so much, the rest is up to you.
To sort the Shoutoku thing out ( I've written about it elsewhere):
Historian A concluded because the records about Shoutoku contradicted other records so much, they must be fabricated. He said Shoutoku is a fictional philosopher king invented by Fujiwara no Fuhito (father of Mokou), a powerful aristocrat who most likely had a hand in the writing of Japan's most important history books Kojiki and Nihon Shoki, so Japan could have a great ruler comparable to the emperors of China.
Historian B disagreed, saying the apparent contradictions are signs that Fuhito was trying to systematically erase Shoutoku from history. (BTW, he's also the guy who proposed that Fuhito is Hieda no Are.)
This 20th century academic debate is the premise of TD: now that whether Shoutoku has really lived is called into doubt, he has become another fantasy, in the same category as other myths and legends, and belongs in Gensokyo. ZUN is also playing with the idea, if we can't even be sure whether he truly existed, how can we know he's not in fact a woman?
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The thig is, this still is overcomplicating things for her origin. I mean, Kanako changing can actually be easily explained by how flexible gods are; going by SoPM, gods are shaped by their legends and myths, so if, say, a group of people started to think of Take-minakata as a female deity of the wind, he's eventually start to appear as that to them. Gods can appear in whatever form they want (Suwako is said to take the form of frogs when called on different shrines, for instance). They can't really be used as an example in this case.
See, Miko has full memories of the time she was emperor; furthermore, no one that was alive in the time she was supposed to have ruled (Futo, Tojiko, Siga... Kanako herself existed back then, and would've certainly heard of Miko) question her apperance or her existence as a ruler. If she was a fully fictional charater given life inside Gensoukyo because of the controversy over her existence, wouldn't at least Kanako note that?
Also, the profile clearly states that the mausoleum was moved to Gensoukyo, because of its nature of attracting things thought to be legends or that are fogotten. Look at this passage from the profile:
"Because Buddhist monks continued to place seals on Miko's mausoleum, she was unable to resurrect. Miko's plan had been foiled.
Miko judged she had no need to rush and could resurrect herself at any time, and so continued sleeping. Finally, the time of her resurrection came.
The trigger was a rumor that the legends regarding her were all fabricated. Since, in modern times, there were no more people with superhuman powers, it wasn't surprising that tales of her exploits were seen as simple lies.
As a result, her mausoleum ended up in Gensokyo. Since there weren't any temples in Gensokyo at that time, she prepared for her resurrection to proceed whenever she felt it was necessary.
By some stoke of timing, though, a new temple was built.
And, whether by plan or by chance, it was built directly over her mausoleum.
That was, of course, Myouren Temple."
In other words, the only reason she didn't come back to life in the outside world was because people kept putting new seals on her mausoleum. Maybe, if people continued to believe she wa real, and someone finally stopped sealing her, she'd have come back to life just fine in the outside world. I mean, magic's not entirely dead there (Maribel, Renko... heck, Mamizou lived there until recently).
tl;dr, I still think applying Occam's Razor is the safest bet here; she was always a real, female ruler of Japan, and her gender was simply lost to time. The reason people thought she was a legend is clearly stated in her profile ("(...) a rumor that the legends regarding her were all fabricated. Since, in modern times, there were no more people with superhuman powers, it wasn't surprising that tales of her exploits were seen as simple lies"). It seems more palpable considering what we have in terms of canon info than saying she's a construct that suddenly spawed in Gensoukyo because of people debating Shoutoku's existence. Well, at least I think so, anyway.
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I sure if she didn't exist as a human she'd be a youkai now.
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That actually reminds me, are hermits and fairies considered youkai? I mean, the Three Fairies of Light could touch the Hakurei Go-shintai with no problems, but once Kasen touched it, it destroyed her bandaged arm, and she commented that youkai extermination is the blessing of the Hakurei Shrine. But then again, if Kasen really is an oni like everyone assumes, she'd be an oni hermit, so who knows if the go-shintai was reacting to the fact that she is an oni instead of reacting to her being an hermit...
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Hermits are considered humans. Fairies are manifestations of nature, though they sometimes get grouped in with youkai out of convenience.
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The thig is, this still is overcomplicating things for her origin.
*WAY OVERCOMPLICATES THINGS*
:I
Cuc took the exact opposite path from overcomplicating things, he just explained a possible reasoning for ZUN poking fun at it.
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Hermits are considered humans.
But then why did Kasen's hand explode when she touched the Hakurei go-shintai? (http://mangafox.me/manga/touhou_sangetsusei_oriental_sacred_place/v03/c017/23.html)
:I
Cuc took the exact opposite path from overcomplicating things, he just explained a possible reasoning for ZUN poking fun at it.
I fail to see how I overcomplicated things considering that, if we go by cuc's reasoning for Miko's appearance in Gensoukyo, just more of questions would be raised (why hasn't anyone that was alive back when Miko ruled commented on her current form [and existence in general] and how did Futo and Tojiko end up there as well, for instance)
I'm probably overthinking this, or didn't really understand what cuc meant, but I don't see how "Miko is actually a manifestation of the contraditory accounts of history regarding Prince Shoutoku being debated in the real world" is somehow simpler then "she was a real historical figure that ended up in Gensokyo", which it's pretty much what her official profile says.
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Hermits are considered humans.
According to Byakuren in SoPM, there are probably a sizable number of tengu hermits, so youkai can become hermits.
I don't see how "Miko is actually a manifestation of the contraditory accounts of history regarding Prince Shoutoku being debated in the real world" is somehow simpler then "she was a real historical figure that ended up in Gensokyo", which it's pretty much what her official profile says.
Nothing in my post contradicts your view, and I definitely was not saying "Miko is a manifestation of contradictory accounts".
I was mostly providing background info on events that 1) from an in-universe PoV, contributed to the mausoleum's entry into Gensokyo; 2) from an outside PoV, inspired the author. And because Touhou is about the interface of myth, fiction and reality, those two PoVs are not too different from each other.
The point is, in Touhou, the world is not merely scientific facts, it's also humanity's shared perception of reality, which after all, is just as important. So "history" is constantly being created by people's beliefs, and we end up with a multitude of truths, believed by different people at different times.
As the part you quoted said (actually, thank you for bringing it into my attention), in the past, humanity's accepted "rules of reality" allowed superhuman heroes to exist, so the truth of Shoutoku was not doubted, and now his feats are deemed impossible. What can't be changed, is the fact that people once used to believed there was a Prince Shoutoku, and in this version of reality, Miko existed, and so are the gods and youkai. Gensokyo is a place for those things which "used to be true". The Touhou universe's laws of nature that sent Miko into Gensokyo are the same ones that caused gods to vanish.
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Nothing in my post contradicts your view, and I definitely was not saying "Miko is a manifestation of contradictory accounts".
I was mostly providing background info on events that 1) from an in-universe PoV, contributed to the mausoleum's entry into Gensokyo; 2) from an outside PoV, inspired the author. And because Touhou is about the interface of myth, fiction and reality, those two PoVs are not too different from each other.
Argh, I really did misinterpreted what you meant. Sorry for that!
The point is, in Touhou, the world is not merely scientific facts, it's also humanity's shared perception of reality, which after all, is just as important. As the part you quoted said (actually, thank you for bringing it into my attention), in the past, humanity's accepted "rules of reality" allowed superhuman heroes to exist, so the truth of Shoutoku was not doubted, and now his feats are deemed impossible. The Touhou universe's laws of nature that sent Miko into Gensokyo are the same ones that's causing gods to vanish.
Indeed...
I wonder when humans gained this "ability". I mean, evolution seems to be true in the Touhouverse (going by CiLR's Toyohime chapter, whichever one it was), so humanity had to first evolve, then gain it. Kaguya says that it was the Lunarians that created youkai and gave the Earth magic, so perhaps it was then that humanity's mind began to influence the world.
...I'm babbling again. Ignore me.
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Considering that Lunarians are Humans and Youkai are created out of Human beliefs, that is not an issue. However, did she say Lunarians gave the Earth magic?
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Kaguya's account is that magic comes from the Moon, and Lunarians created youkai on the earth. Yukari's account is that youkai were born out of human belief in order to explain unknown/feared phenomena and the like. These two accounts are definitely not exclusive and can probably be combined in several different ways to make some coherent explanation. But yes, Kaguya says Lunarians gave the earth magic. Somehow.
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Oh I see, I guess I forgot that part then. Wow, that is kind of weird, because from what I could tell. Lunarians are humans, but they left for the moon a long long time ago. Must be Eirin or someone else making up stories to Kaguya.
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Eirin Yagokoro
Age Hundred of millions
Hm... killing all living dinosaurs was her fisrt biological experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous)? :V
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Oh I see, I guess I forgot that part then. Wow, that is kind of weird, because from what I could tell. Lunarians are humans, but they left for the moon a long long time ago. Must be Eirin or someone else making up stories to Kaguya.
I think ZUN was playing with the tendency for the powerful to take the credit for pretty much everything under the sun. You know, like how Americans believe they invented airplanes, radio, combustion engines and so forth. Kaguya and Yukari are, in their own way, exercising the same kind of tactic.
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If we take ZUN's drunken interviews as canon, Kaguya and Eirin are hundreds of millions years old, which makes them older tham humanity itself (the modern human species appeareed between 400.00 and 200.000 years ago). In the third chapter of CiLR, theres this passage (it's from Toyohime's POV):
"Waves rippled in silence across the lifeless ocean. As I watched the ocean, memories of the distant past sprang to my mind."
And then she goes on to talk about when life first arose from the oceans. If the translation is correct, one can interpret this as she remembering seeing this herself, which would make her VERY old (life first appeared on land in the Devonian, 400 - 350 million years ago). Alternatively, it could be she remembers someone else telling her this, of course.
Also, in Reisen's SWR ending, Eirin said the creation of Heaven happened so long ago that not even she was born. The Touhou wiki speculates that this is the Permian-Triassic extinction (since Eirin says that the event killed almost everything on Earth, and the Permian-Triassic etinction was the one that did just that), but I dunno if there's any real proof for that. Could be other extinction events, too, either more recent or even older,
This all makes me wonder if there are fantastical elements in the Touhouverse that are not dependent on human belief... or maybe it's like one of those things "once something is believed to have always existed, it always existed", so humanity can create things that predate itself.
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Back up. Let's not overthink this. Maybe I'm exhausted from the fact that the Touhou Wiki has been slowly transforming into another version of TVTropes, but when the wiki "speculates" on something, you can pretty much ignore whatever's written. And when theories are built on these very speculations, well ...
This isn't rocket science. Powerful figures will make all kinds of audacious claims of having invented this and started that. Kaguya and Yukari do the same. It's comedy.
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Yeah yeah. I do find it fun to overthink things, heh
I wasn't really basing things on that speculation, though; it was more on the "Eirin and Kaguya are hundreds of million years old", Reisen's SWR ending, and CiLR third chapter.
Although for the first one I'd actually want to see the interview where ZUN said that. It's not linked in the wiki.
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Overthinking and speculation are great, just not for a thread made for concrete answers to concrete questions.
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...shit, that's true. I'll contain myself from now on.
So I'll actually make that a question, does anyone know where to find the interview where ZUN says Kaguya and Eirin's age?
Also, I have the impression I read somewhere that the Yatagarasu is one of Amaterasu's avatars... does anyone remember reading something like that?
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I don't know if I can find the interview, but I thought it only mentions that Eirin is ancient and not Kaguya.
I am not sure, but I believe the Yatagarasu is a god and so is Amaterasu. The latter being a stronger god than the former.
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IIRC, it's not from a proper interview. Rather, it's somebody (who must have been considered reliable) reporting him encountering ZUN in a pub, and hearing it there. The original quote is something like "the unit for counting Eirin's age is hundred million years". I may be wrong.
Yatagarasu is a separate sun god from Amaterasu.
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Oh, I see.
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To delve into Eirin's age from canon info:
Eirin is older than Tsukuyomi (source? SSiB or CiLR?).
Tsukuyomi is a son of Izanagi. The three noble children, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo, were born when Izanagi returned from his terrible quest to meet the dead Izanami, and cleansed himself. In other words, they were born quite some time after Izanagi and Izanami had created the islands of Japan.
According to Izanagi Object ~ Neo-traditionalism of Japan, Izanagi and Izanami created Japan 25 million years ago. So Eirin's age might be on a time scale comparable to that.
(If we consider the possibility that Eirin is Omoikane, according to some version of family tree of the gods, Omoikane is of the same generation as Izanagi and Izanami. Anyways, Omoikane is older than the three noble children.)
Kaguya, though, can be much younger than that, most likely born after the founding of Lunar Capital.
About whether the Lunarians are human - it's not as important as you may think. Japanese mythology, like many animist mythologies, don't differentiate much between humans and gods, or humans and objects, for that matter.
>Sagus
You have a point about whether humanity can determine things that existed prior to humanity's evolution, and I also find it troubling. But did you know that there really is a quantum physics theory that proposed the universe was in a Schrodinger's cat state, until humanity was evolved enough to observe it, thus retroactively making the entire history of the universe snap into focus?
What if the pre-human history of Touhou universe is inspired by this theory?
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Uhhhhh Eirin is so ooold :P
Someone knows from where they get the spellcards comments to put in the touhou wiki? Are those comments from ZUN itself? There are some spellcards lacking comments on wiki.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object/Spell_Cards/Stage_4
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IN is the only game to have official spell card comments. The rest are flavour made up by particular wiki contributors.
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*clip!*
Oh, I had forgotten about NToJ, that one has a good piece of info too~
That's an interesting theory, although to be honest I prefer to believe that there are supernatural elements in the touhou universe that exist regardless of humans; although, everything taken into account, I'd wager your theory seems to be closer to canon.
Anyway, we'd better continue this speculation in a proper topic before we get scolded for using this thread for it :P
Is the timeline in the Touhou wiki reliable in terms of when the events of the extra materials take place? Or are they guesses too?
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Some, such as the Bunbunmaru/Kakashi articles, are exact. Some are placed because they logically fit between two events and give other hints. It should be pretty clear which are more exact than others.
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They are technically all speculation, and the reliability varies. Sometimes the time of a story can be easily pinned down, such as a story set during monsoon season, or new year, other times not so easy - I've had debates about the order of the music CD stories. In general, ZUN would make sure there are "seasonal symbols" in a story, and fans extrapolate from them.
EDIT: hijacked by Drake :V
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Hey, sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but I searched around for a while and couldn't find it.
Anyways, what are the limitations on releasing Touhou fanworks on the Android Market and/or for Android in general?
I understand that you can't release commercial works, but what constitutes a 'commercial' work?
I'm asking because I'm thinking of making a Touhou danmaku game (aimed mostly at tablets/things with physical keyboards but also touch screens) similar to the Touhou Boss Medley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85bE4NlzrLE) for Android, but I'm not sure whether I should make it with Touhou characters (as I would prefer) or just the majority of mechanics from the Touhou games and original characters.
The second project I'm working on is a Visual Novel with Touhou characters (not Eastern Starlight Romance), which I would like to release for Android as well as Windows/Mac/Linux. If I were to release it as a $1.99 app or something, would that be against the rules? What if it was released for free?
Sorry again if this's been answered, but I haven't been able to find a definitive answer anyways.
A point in the right direction would be helpful as well, of course.
Thanks!
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ZUN has explicitly prohibited putting derivative works on outlets such as app markets, XBLA, Steam, etc. Sorry brah.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights
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ZUN has explicitly prohibited putting derivative works on outlets such as app markets, XBLA, Steam, etc. Sorry brah.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights
Dang, ok. Thanks for the heads up.
Just to double check, it should still be fine to make a game with near-identical mechanics and original characters for Android though, correct?
As well as releasing the VN for full PC platforms (Windows/Mac/Pc)?
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Yeah I would think so.
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You can release Touhou fan games on Android for absolutely free - no ads, no in-app purchase (2012 interview (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13241.0.html) about mobile development).
In general principle: ensure they contain nothing directly ripped from the official games, or anything similarly unwelcome. Make a clear copyright statement at startup and in your description that Touhou Project is (c) Team Shanghai Alice, and your work is deriative.
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You can release Touhou fan games on Android for absolutely free - no ads, no in-app purchase (2012 interview (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13241.0.html) about mobile development).
In general principle: ensure they contain nothing directly ripped from the official games, or anything similarly unwelcome. Make a clear copyright statement at startup and in your description that Touhou Project is (c) Team Shanghai Alice, and your work is deriative.
Cool, thanks for the help!
----- EDIT -----
Also, my partner pointed out that that doesn't say anything about, say, adding a 'donate' button or something - would that break the rules?
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Seriously doubt it, since the purpose is to support you personally rather than the work itself.
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I had one question.
why many touhou fanboys are always saying ''BRING MIMA BACK!!!'' it`s kinda annoying you know?
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What with the common, daytime, and nighttime endings in Touhou 3? I mean... why are there three ending? The same goes with Touhou 5 having two good endings.
Thanks in advance!
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PoDD has nine endings. One for each character. Likewise, MS has four, though there's also an ending for the Extra stage with each character. I'm guessing you just looked at the number of songs and that confused you. In MS, one song is used for the regular endings and the other for the Extra endings. In PoDD, each ending just uses one of the three songs.
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How long had Eirin and co. been in Gensokyo by the time of Imperishable Night? Were they new arrivals?
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This is probably the wrong place to ask it, but I have a question related to Applocale and Fangames.
I want to play a demo of a certain Fangame, Touhou Rhythm Carnival. Do I have to use Applocale to set my language to Japanese to play it? I don't want to do this all over again, so if the answer is yes, then I will avoid downloading the demo.
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How long had Eirin and co. been in Gensokyo by the time of Imperishable Night? Were they new arrivals?
They moved into Eientei before the Great Hakurei Barrier was created. Reisen moved in around the time of the Apollo missions. If you're counting Tewi, she's probably been there since rabbits first evolved.
I had one question.
why many touhou fanboys are always saying ''BRING MIMA BACK!!!'' it`s kinda annoying you know?
Because Touhou Soccer made up a cool attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkDT-OlkYTI) for her. :V
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Kaguya was banished from the moon around 1000 years ago, and Eirin followed her. Not long after, Kaguya broke Mokou's father's heart and that's how their rivalry began.
Actually, that's how Mokou even got hold of the Hourai Elixir, and seeing as she's about a millenium old as well, you can deduce it from that.
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There is a doujin about Reimu, who after living a long life died of old age. I won't say much because spoilers, but Nitori is at the end. Does anyone know the name of it?
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There is a doujin about Reimu, who after living a long life died of old age. I won't say much because spoilers, but Nitori is at the end. Does anyone know the name of it?
If I remember correctly, isn't it "End of Maiden's Illusion"?
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If I remember correctly, isn't it "End of Maiden's Illusion"?
Yep.
You can find it here (http://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/778)(warning, danbooru link)
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Umm... I don't even know if this place is the right one for a request. I suppose it doesn't harm to ask eh?
So I'm pretty much a sucker for any touhou danmaku fangame, and heard a bit of Mythical Mirror. It seems pretty interesting, but the only run I've ever found on the entire internet was of Normal mode, and it seems to be outdated (at least that's what I can presume from the fact most OSTs in the run sound unpolished when compared to, for example, the sample songs availiable at the game's site).
Anybody knows if there are videos of either an up-to-date run (if there is something such as a newer version of the game) or a hard/lunatic run of it? Thank you all in advance!
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This is probably the wrong place to ask it, but I have a question related to Applocale and Fangames.
I want to play a demo of a certain Fangame, Touhou Rhythm Carnival. Do I have to use Applocale to set my language to Japanese to play it? I don't want to do this all over again, so if the answer is yes, then I will avoid downloading the demo.
Just making sure that people see it. :derp:
<Tengukami> Please don't do this.
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PoDD has nine endings. One for each character. Likewise, MS has four, though there's also an ending for the Extra stage with each character. I'm guessing you just looked at the number of songs and that confused you. In MS, one song is used for the regular endings and the other for the Extra endings. In PoDD, each ending just uses one of the three songs.
I'm aware that 3 has nine different endings from each of the nine characters, but why are the ending themes divided into common, daytime, and nighttime? Are you saying that the endings have random themes every time? Also, the second good ending theme is Mystic Square's extra ending, right?
Just want to clarify things...
Thanks in advance!
They moved into Eientei before the Great Hakurei Barrier was created. Reisen moved in around the time of the Apollo missions. If you're counting Tewi, she's probably been there since rabbits first evolved.
Because Touhou Soccer made up a cool attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkDT-OlkYTI) for her. :V
And because of this, several people thought Mima actually knows this move in the official games. I'm one of those people... :blush:
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I'm aware that 3 has nine different endings from each of the nine characters, but why are the ending themes divided into common, daytime, and nighttime? Are you saying that the endings have random themes every time? Also, the second good ending theme is Mystic Square's extra ending, right?
Oh, what I said about PoDD is actually wrong. They all use two themes, the first one being Dream of Eternity. Then during the second half of the ending (after Yumemi gives the character whatever they asked for), one of the other two themes plays. For Mima and Kana, it's Eternal Full Moon. Everyone else gets Eastern Blue Sky. It's not random.
(And I guess if you want to be overly accurate, Love of Magical Chimes plays very briefly at the start of most of them, until Chiyuri hits Yumemi with a chair. Chiyuri and Yumemi's own endings are the only exceptions to that, I think.)
I don't remember which song is which in Mystic Square, and I don't have time to check now, but I'd assume the second is the Extra Ending, yeah.
This is probably the wrong place to ask it, but I have a question related to Applocale and Fangames.
I want to play a demo of a certain Fangame, Touhou Rhythm Carnival. Do I have to use Applocale to set my language to Japanese to play it? I don't want to do this all over again, so if the answer is yes, then I will avoid downloading the demo.
You should probably ask it in Tech Support in the Help Me Eirin section.
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Hmmm today I was watching one EoSD 90fps video and I noticed that Daiyousei can use teleport, so I wondered myself, "which abilities does she have"? Looking the wiki I didn't found anything about it so...
1- Which are her abilities?
2- Is there a rank of the strongest fairies? Like "Cirno - Daiyousei - Sunnny, etc".
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Cirno is the strongest (self-proclaimed). That's really all we know.
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1. none in particular
2. no
cirno sort of canonically won against the three fairies but it doesn't really mean anything
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cirno sort of canonically won against the three fairies but it doesn't really mean anything
I wouldn't exactly say "doesn't really mean anything". She did defeat all three at once, and they complimented her, saying she'd be a great addition to the group. I think we can safely say Cirno is the strongest from what we've seen so far, but as always, "Strongest Fairy" is far from a huge compliment.
At best, if you really don't want to do any speculation, we can say Cirno is at least equal at first place with those three.
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That's sort of what I mean. Sure she beat them, but squabbles amongst fairies is kind of a grey area on top of other grey areas concerning who can defeat who. I just assume she's strong for a fairy, but you still can't really class fairies (or most characters really) based on danmaku fights, never mind whatever the fairies thought was a danmaku fight.
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Part of the point of Spell Card rules is every Gensokyo girl, even a fairy or Rumia can understand it, so you certainly can't say their game is not a Spell Card duel. Other than this, I agree, a danmaku battle is just that.
Lily White demonstrated teleporting in PCB, too.
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Daiyousei noob
Thanks for the answers :)
Part of the point of Spell Card rules is every Gensokyo girl, even a fairy or Rumia can understand it, so you certainly can't say their game is not a Spell Card duel. Other than this, I agree, a danmaku battle is just that.
So Rinnosuke can't use spellcards?
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Yeah, no boys allowed.
And now I have a question of my own. What is the likelihood of ZUN creating another Phantasmagoria game? (i.e. one like PoDD and PoFV.) Has he ever mentioned anything about it, or given any hints about planning to do another some day, etc. I'd like to believe he will, but I've never really heard anything that would seem to hint one way or the other.
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>So Rinnosuke can't use spellcards?
To seriously answer the question, nothing stops men from using spell cards. Rinnosuke happens to be ineffiencient and uninterested in fighting. I said "girls", because it's kinda the PMiSS canonical excuse for why all game characters are female: women prefer the beauty of danmaku battles.
Then again, perhaps instead of being a handwave, it's more of an indication that everyone in Gensokyo that matters (the "target audience" spell card rules must cater to) really is female.
>Phantasmagoria game
I'm afraid there's no sign for that whatsoever at the moment.
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ZUN stated he can't imagine Rinnosuke using spell cards, but the context was because ZUN felt Rinnosuke was too much of a pansy... er, non-combattant. Even then, ZUN ended his statement with something like "well, maybe..." indicating that the possibility is still open.
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That's sort of what I mean. Sure she beat them, but squabbles amongst fairies is kind of a grey area on top of other grey areas concerning who can defeat who. I just assume she's strong for a fairy, but you still can't really class fairies (or most characters really) based on danmaku fights, never mind whatever the fairies thought was a danmaku fight.
The three fairies of light are the best at hide-and-seek, ergo they are the best fairies. This logic is flawless.
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as a fairy, i would place being good at hide-and-seek at a much higher priority than being strong
Really, if most fairies like to prank people, then being better at pranking people would be more admirable than anything else, right?
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If the three fairies ever manage to get a way of causing harm, they have almost perfect stealth capabilities at their disposal so they can potentially be dangerous. Until they do, I guess they're professional at Hide & Seek.
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You know, although it sounds like a joke, they ARE the best fairies. I'm sure, were they to be real, no other fairies would expect to win a game of hide and seek against them.
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Hi everybody. I just signed up, I hope this is the right place for this. I searched around and couldn't find anywhere better, but if there is someplace let me know.
Anyway, I'm going to be cosplaying Youki at ACen this May. I pretty much have the outfit done, based on a composite of a few fan pictures of him. I still need a sword and a Myon though. I know next to nothing about swords and that kind of thing, so I'm not clear on what kind of sword I should buy. If I understand the limited Youki information we have correctly, we can assume that he probably used Hakurouken since it's a Konpaku family weapon, but there's no information that suggests he ever handled Roukanken. Is that right? And what kind of sword is Hakurouken? What details should I be looking for in a prop sword? Is it likely that Youki would have two swords, or one?
Any help would be appreciated, and thanks for reading.
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Considering he taught Youmu and we already know at least Hakurouken is a family item, it would be a natural step to say Roukanken was also at least wielded by Youki.
Attached two pictures. The latter is probably the "clearest" "canonical" Hakurouken I've seen. Its design sort of changes depending on who draws it, but given its length and where it's worn, it's probably a wakizashi (or kodachi).
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So if I follow, Hakurouken is the short one and Roukanken is the long one, and I probably want both? Makes sense. In that case even without the assumption that Youki owned Hakurouken at some point I would want two swords because just the one short one would look weird.
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Okay... I remember reading somewhere (don't remember where, tho) saying that Patchouli is also an alchemist. It makes kind of a while... so I have lost the link. But at least on touhou wiki, it says her occupations are only "Intellectual, librarian, teacher, and scholar"
I think this "alchemist" thing comes from the fact that Patchy uses the elemental system (which was developed by them in the past), and this whole elemental combos thing (Fire + Wood Sign / Water + Earth Sign... etc) has to do with chemistry, since the science deals with combining stuff.
Can someone tell me if it's written anywhere on canon material that she, in fact, deals with alchemy?
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In the Grimoire of Marisa, she says the following:
A spell card that synthesizes jewels by hurling mudballs. Is this what they call alchemy?
This strongly suggests that she uses alchemy to form her gem based spells, by converting dirt and steels into gems. (Since this is found in the entry for her Emerald Megalith spellcard.)
A little aside; the philosopher's stone was originally thought to be a tool for alchemists, so that somewhat supports the above since one of her strongest spells is using the philosopher's stones themselves.
I unfortunately can't find any direct quotes that say, "Patchi is an alchemist" but this is the best I can find, sorry :P
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Marisa says in WaHH that magicians rely on mercury and sulphur, and that's why so many have frail bodies.
Magicians aren't just people with magical power; there's plenty of those. They're scientists. Heck, Marisa uses the mini-hakkero as a Bunsen burner more than she uses it to fight.
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This strongly suggests that she uses alchemy to form her gem based spells
No, it suggests Marisa is wondering if it's alchemy. Not the same thing.
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No, it suggests Marisa is wondering if it's alchemy. Not the same thing.
No, it CONFIRMS Marisa is wondering if it's alchemy. Not the same thing.
In addition to this, assuming Marisa can be taken at her word (because she states the way the spell card works as a matter of fact), it also confirms that Patchouli is capable of synthesizing jewels by hurling mudballs.
Webster.com defines alchemy as :
1: a medieval chemical science and speculative philosophy aiming to achieve the transmutation of the base metals into gold,
2:a power or process of transforming something common into something special
3: an inexplicable or mysterious transmuting
If, in fact, the spell card is indeed "synthesizing jewels by hurling mudballs", which is what Marisa claims it does (and I personally think it's difficult to imagine her screwing up that observation, given that Patchouli throwing mud balls that transform into gems right in front of your eyes would be a pretty difficult thing to miss), then it does indeed match the definition of alchemy.
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If "changes something ordinary into something special" is alchemy, then that's a pretty broad definition, but sure, why not.
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Is there a link to the English translated lyrics of "Amorous Attention"?
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http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Lyrics:_amorous_attention&action=edit&redlink=1
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Lyrics:_amorous_attention
i didn't translate it though sry
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Another quesiton!!! And thanks drake
Is there a link to Jynx's remake of Icemilk Magic? I've been trying to find it since forever...
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nice to meet you all :)
while I search on itune I find these album
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/game-collection-from-touhou/id583186027
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/anime-diamonds/id483259172
my question is
Are these albums receive copyright from ZUN ?
As far as I understand ZUN allow the rearrange song to sell on small market but these album are on itune which is worldwide ,so Is it against Zun's rule ?
sorry for my very bad english and thank you for your answer
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Welcome eyeeye!
We can refer here (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki:Copyrights#Copyright_status.2FTerms_of_Use_of_the_Touhou_Project) to ZUN's copyright terms. He does say "Selling doujin works in commercial channels is generally not allowed," and iTunes I think probably counts as a commercial channel. Unless the original Japanese of "commercial channel" means something completely different.
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If the three fairies ever manage to get a way of causing harm, they have almost perfect stealth capabilities at their disposal so they can potentially be dangerous. Until they do, I guess they're professional at Hide & Seek.
Star Sapphire used a bomb in the 3 Fairies Manga, so yes, they could be potentially be dangerous. Maybe not to Tohou characters, but definitely to normal people.
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Okay, so it looks like Manpuku Jinja has something new on the radar. Can anyone who can read moonrunes elaborate?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEFsPi2599w
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Nothing new. This was the preview they gave at Comic1. The new work is still planned to be released at Reitaisai, but it isn't finished yet.
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Wait a second.
If Gensokyo has populations of extinct creatures, does that mean somewhere in Gensokyo there's DINOSAURS? :]
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I think the criteria is more along the lines of being "forgotten/passed-into-legend" than just "not there anymore"; as a counter-example, Remilia, Kanako, and Mamizou were still in the Outside World until their respective games. (But this is how magazines on the moon landing made it to Kourindou.)
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Oh.
...
Well, uh, after Jurassic Park they found out that the *actual* velociraptor was a much smaller creature than the ones in Jurassic Park.
So that means we can have giant clever ninja lizards from Hell in Gensokyo, right? :getdown:
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I thought the scientific community knew, and the large size was just creative license.
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The Fighting Dinosaurs fossil is complete enough that it would be impossible not to know how large velociraptors were by the time they made JP.
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Ooooh, okay.
I learned something today!
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JP's raptors were based on Deinonychus, who at the time were tought to be a Velociraptor species.
Not that they look anything like Deinonychus, anyway.
...as for dinosaurs in Gensoukyo.... Yukari is there, isn't she :getdown:
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Renko's Wiki says that Yuyuko visited the outside world before. When did that happen?
Thanks in advance!
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Might be a reference to an SoPM illustration.
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To note, Yuyuko died well before Gensokyo was sealed away, so the statement is almost trivially true.
But yes, what's being talked about is the story nudged at by Kanako during SoPM. Kanako describes "mystery spots" in the outside world, where ghosts are likely to appear. Essentially, they are spots that humans find scary and think they might be haunted or whatever. Therefore, ghosts appear there. Kanako says a ghost told her this, and the footnote says it was perhaps Yuyuko or Youmu. I find it funny to have ZUN meta-pondering who it was because given the picture accompanied and Yuyuko's playful carefree personality, there's basically no question about it.
The picture itself is the only actual part showing that Yuyuko encountered Renko and Mary themselves, but that should really be enough to say this actually happened.
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Relating to a discussion in the ZUN Update thread, how far back does Akyu's collective memory go, anyway? Or alternatively how long has her bloodline been around?
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The first Child of Miare, who started compiling Gensokyo Chronicles, lived over a thousand years ago. Note that Akyuu admitted that only memories related to Gensokyo Chronicles carry over between her incarnations.
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I'm working my way through Curiosities of Lotus Asia and I've noticed that Rinnoske calls everyone a child, or a girl, even Yukari who is commonly depicted as being a woman (apart from the whole hag thing). Is this just a fault of my translation, or maybe I'm applying my own connotation of girl referring to a female who is not an adult. Alternatively does Rinnoske really just look down on everyone?
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As a half-youkai, I don't think Rinnosuke refers to women by their actual age, but by their appearance. When he ?first? meets Yukari he describes her as a girl (少女). From then on he continuously describes her as 少女, even after knowing she's lived much longer than he has. As an anecdote, when Rinnosuke attempts to smash the computer for being ~ominous~, Yukari's hand pops out and stops him. He doesn't know it's Yukari, but describes it as a slender girl's hand (か細い女の子の手).
It would make sense that if you lived a long time, you would just describe people as they seem. The difference between "girl" and "woman" might become pretty arbitrary and confusing otherwise. What's interesting to me here is how Rinnosuke's description might differ to someone else's, possibly more recent, description of Yukari.
It's hard to get a good reference frame because it isn't often we have actual first-person descriptions of other characters, besides in CoLA.
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I heard there was an interview or something where ZUN said he wanted people to forget about the PC-98 era, or something like that. I also heard there was a dispute about what this quote actually means, but I'm not interested in any of that. I just want a link to a transcript of that interview. Does anyone have that?
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I heard there was an interview or something where ZUN said he wanted people to forget about the PC-98 era, or something like that. I also heard there was a dispute about what this quote actually means, but I'm not interested in any of that. I just want a link to a transcript of that interview. Does anyone have that?
It's on the wiki, which for some reason isn't loading for me, but this (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_E-mails) should be the link.
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http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN%27s_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_3
Far as I can tell, ZUN in this link is (paraphrased) saying "The windows series hasn't stated PC-98 exists, but that doesn't necesarily mean PC-98 doesn't exist. But since WIndows is meant to be enjoyed without having played PC-98 first, you don't have to worry about PC98 at all unless it comes up in the Windows game (Tiamat's examples: Yuuka and Alice)"
.......yea.
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Just finished the last fitting for my Youki cosplay, and with ACen this weekend I'm trying to finish out as many of the details as I can. I ordered two cheap but decent-looking wooden swords, but I have another question regarding them. What kind of flower is the flower that Youmu has tied to Roukanken's sheath, and does it have any canon significance? I've been planning on putting a similar one on Youki's sword to create as many visual cues as possible to associate the two of them (since I probably won't have a solution for my hair worked out in time and I want to be as recognizable as possible and Youki is borderline apocryphal) as long as there isn't a particular reason not to. I couldn't find any specific reference to the flower anywhere, but I figured at least somebody might be able to identify the specific kind of flower it is.
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The flower on Youmu's sheath is a garden cosmos (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos_bipinnatus), the most common species of cosmos. It's native to Mexico, imported into Japan in 1887, and given the poetic name akizakura (autumn cherry blossom).
This has been clarified in SDV, the official fan comic anthology. While the comics themselves aren't canon, their topics - the flowers were specified by ZUN.
There's a lot more to discuss about Youmu's flower (most of the above I learnt from a Chinese aricle examining the topic), but that's out of the scope of your question.
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The flower on Youmu's sheath is a garden cosmos (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos_bipinnatus), the most common species of cosmos. It's native to Mexico, and imported into Japan in the 1950s, also known as akizakura (autumn cherry blossom).
This has been clarified in SDV, the official fan comic anthology. While the comics themselves aren't canon, their topics - the flowers were specified by ZUN.
There's a lot more to discuss about Youmu's flower (most of the above I learnt from a Chinese aricle examining the topic), but that's out of the scope of your question.
Hmm. Interesting. That helps. Have you read anything that suggests that the flower is exclusive to Youmu? I've always kind of assumed it was an emblem of employment by Yuyuko, so it stands to reason that Youki would have one as well, but if it's been explored at all in anything resembling canon that may not be the case.
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Sorry, my mind slipped when converting the Japanese year number from wikipedia. It was imported in 1887.
Yeah, the arrangement of SDV suggested the cosmos was exclusive to Youmu in canon, since there are two cosmos stories, one where Youmu attached it to her sheath, and another where she later found a plastic cosmos and attached this second flower. The only sensible explanation for this arrangement, is "ZUN asked them to do this".
You are going to use a plastic flower, right? I think it makes sense to use a bunch (like in that fanart) of sakura, the flower of samurai for Youki.
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Sorry, my mind slipped when converting the Japanese year number from wikipedia. It was imported in 1887.
Yeah, the arrangement of SDV suggested the cosmos was exclusive to Youmu in canon, since there are two cosmos stories, one where Youmu attached it to her sheath, and another where she later found a plastic cosmos and attached this second flower. The only sensible explanation for this arrangement, is "ZUN asked them to do this".
You are going to use a plastic flower, right? I think it makes sense to use a bunch (like in that fanart) of sakura, the flower of samurai for Youki.
I was planning to use a plastic flower, yes. I'll see what I can turn up as far as a plastic sakura goes. This kind of slipped my mind until the last minute so I may not be able to find one before the con, but I do live near a few craft stores so I'll pick over them tomorrow.
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Not important to the your enquiry, but to add to the previous discussion, at least according to Japanese sources, the most important part of garden cosmos' flower language is "maiden's true heart".
The English sources don't seem to mention it, but it's the Japanese point of view that counts.
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Sorry, my mind slipped when converting the Japanese year number from wikipedia. It was imported in 1887.
That's an interesting relevation. Just a random thought, is this an estimated date? The Hakurei Barrier is created around 1885, and this flower getting imported to Japan is fairly close to that date.
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The way Japanese wikipedia phrased it is exact. The closeness to Year 1 is more of an interesting coincidence. What matters is it was imported at a time when the Japanese still would give imported flowers poetic names like "akizakura".
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I wonder about that being a coincidence. Did you not mention that her second flower is fake and only the first one is real? Would that not imply the first one has to be retrieved either prior to isolation or that flower somehow made it through the barrier?
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I checked it again, the 1887 date is not exact. One generally accepted date is 1879. Even if it's 1879, judging from common sense, it's extremely unlikely a newly imported plant can reach the remote mountain valley of Gensokyo before 1885.
However, the flower, and the knowledge about it can still drift into Gensokyo like Rinnosuke's cokes. Further, according to the recent FS chapter, the border has no effect on normal animals. Normal plants must be the same.
We should also consider the case where ZUN just didn't know. The flower has another very misleading name: ooharushagiku "great Persian chrysanthmum", so many Japanese may thought it was imported earlier than that. However, given ZUN's love of research and knowledge, this is not very likely.
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I have a question that really has no place outside of a thread specifically for miscellaneous ones.
So ZUN is going to AWA in September and he's going to be showered with gifts, most of which will be designed to inhibit his mental processes and damage his liver. Good enough, but I'd prefer to do something a bit more original. Considering his love for Gatsy caps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatsby_cap)/flat caps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_cap) is as strong as it is for ethyl alcohol and frills, I'd like to make one for him. The problem is that hats are very finicky when it comes to sizing and that style doesn't lend itself well to being adjustable.
So... does anyone know what hat size ZUN takes? I don't even know if I'll go through with making one yet, but this is the first step and a large part of deciding whether I'll do so or not.
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@Youmu's flower:
Yeah, considering how detail oriented he is. It is kind of weird for Youmu to only have the first flower as the real one and not be able to find a second real flower.
The date of the flower being imported and the Hakurei Barrier being set up is too close for it to be a coincidence, but I am not ruling it out. It is just something to muse on.
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Garden cosmos has grown wild in Japan. In the SDV stories, the real cosmos was a wild flower, and Youmu took the plastic flower because she had never seen one before.
While the stories are nor canon, it makes sense that the plastic flower can be rarer than the real ones in Gensokyo. Still, your theory is interesting.
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I see, I read that before, but I forgot the details, as I read that a while ago. All I really remember is 1 real flower and 1 fake.
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My mind is going pretty crazy trying to think of a remix that I heard about a year ago. It was a silly little remix where the vast majority of the music were random sound effects like whistles, Vaccuums (I think), meows (?). Not quite sure. I'm pretty sure it was also a part of a compilation like the house sets, but I've already double checked all song in the house sets...
Help! :V
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My mind is going pretty crazy trying to think of a remix that I heard about a year ago. It was a silly little remix where the vast majority of the music were random sound effects like whistles, Vaccuums (I think), meows (?). Not quite sure. I'm pretty sure it was also a part of a compilation like the house sets, but I've already double checked all song in the house sets...
Help! :V
You're probably thinking of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjR0ip9cxY). I think a couple of other house set tracks use a similar sound (Phantom Ensemble and Futatsuiwa From Sado, I think?), so you could check those out as well.
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I love that arrange so much. I always do a double-take on the far-away-door-shutting sound.
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You're probably thinking of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjR0ip9cxY). I think a couple of other house set tracks use a similar sound (Phantom Ensemble and Futatsuiwa From Sado, I think?), so you could check those out as well.
No... That's not it. It's a lot more goofier and made up of more random sounds (Like 95% of it). I really appreciate you for helping though. :3 I'll search for it when I get back from work as well. I'll post it if I ever find it, too. :ohdear:
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Then it's almost certainly this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhiNSR-WTpw) remix of Phantom Ensemble, from the Perfect Cherry Blossom house set.
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Then it's almost certainly this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhiNSR-WTpw) remix of Phantom Ensemble, from the Perfect Cherry Blossom house set.
WE HAVE A WINNER! Thanks so much! :3
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Then it's almost certainly this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhiNSR-WTpw) remix of Phantom Ensemble, from the Perfect Cherry Blossom house set.
I did confirm earlier that Phantom Ensemble and Futatsuiwa From Sado were in fact the other two I was thinking of, although from half-listening to them at work it seemed like they were much lighter on sound effects than Lunate Elf. Wouldn't hurt to give both of them a listen, anyway.
On a related note, who should I be attributing those house sets to in my MP3 player? That's been an ongoing problem with my music library. They're not well labelled on Youtube unfortunately.
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クロネコラウンジ (Black Cat Lounge)
http://kuronekolounge.sakura.ne.jp/neko/KuronekoLounge.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/rinx2musixxx/
It's basically the main contributing artist (凛)'s circle.
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クロネコラウンジ (Black Cat Lounge)
http://kuronekolounge.sakura.ne.jp/neko/KuronekoLounge.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/rinx2musixxx/
It's basically the main contributing artist (凛)'s circle.
Neat, thank you.
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what is the best touhou music while playing dota?
ty
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what is the best touhou music while playing dota?
ty
Subjective choice of music remains subjective. Pick the one which you think makes you perform better.
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what is the best touhou music while playing dota?
ty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9AoReAqJyk
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東方三月精 Touhou Sangetsusei
Eastern and Little Nature Deity
画像及び本文中の記載間違いに関するお詫びと訂正
Apology and correction in regards to errors in portraits and text passages
2007年1月26日に発売致しました「東方三月精 Eastern and Little Nature Deity」の画像及び本文中の記載に間違いがありました。
修正箇所につきましては、原作者監修のもと正誤表を作成致しましたので、ホームページにて掲載させていただきます。
読者の皆様はじめ、関係各位にはご迷惑をおかけしましたことをお詫びすると共に、ここに訂正させていただきます。
In the 01/26/2007 release of Touhou Sangetsusei ~ Eastern and Little Nature Deity, there were errors in the portraits as well as the text.
In order to correct these passages, errata were written up with the supervision of the original author, and will be published on the home page.
To all of our readers, and to anyone else it may concern, we offer our sincerest apologies for the trouble we have caused, and humbly offer the corrections below.
コンプエース編集部
Comp-Ace Editorial
※この正誤表は原作者の監修の下、作成したものです。
※These errata have been written up under the supervision of the original author.
●キャラクター紹介画像の誤掲載
Character introduction portrait errors
誤 (Error) | | 正 (Correction) |
| [Youmu] | | [Yuyuko] |
| [Yuyuko] | | [Yukari] |
| [Keine] | | [Reisen] |
[Portraits from Imperishable Night are pictured]
●本文中の誤植箇所
In-text misprinted passages
誤 (Error) | | 正 (Correction) |
| ヴワル図書館 (Voile Library) | | 紅魔館内の図書館 (The Library in the Scarlet Devil Mansion) |
| （藤原妹紅の種族）月人 (Fujiwara no Mokou's species; Lunarian) | | 人間 (Human) |
| 幻想郷唯一の情報媒体 (Gensokyo's only news medium) | | 幻想郷の貴重な情報媒体 (Gensokyo's valuable news medium) |
| 冥界の裁判官 (The Judge of the Netherworld) | | 地獄の裁判官 (The Judge of Hell) |
| 麗夢 (Used "Rei" in "Hakurei" for "Reimu") | | 霊夢 |
| 全６タイトル (All 6 titles) | | 全５タイトル (All 5 titles) |
| 蓬莱の玉の輿 (The jeweled palanquin of Hourai) | | 蓬莱の玉の枝 (The jeweled branch of Hourai) |
| 森近霖之助（もりちかしんのすけ） ("Shinnosuke") | | 森近霖之助（もりちかりんのすけ） |
●キャラクター名英語表記の誤記
Character name romanization errors
誤 (Error) | | 正 (Correction) |
| Lumia | | Rumia |
| Chilno | | Cirno |
| Hong Meyling | | Hong Meirin |
| Pachery Knowledge | | Patchouli Knowledge |
| Frandoll Scarlet | | Frandre Scarlet |
| Rhetty Whiterock | | Letty Whiterock |
| Tcheng | | Chen |
| LillyWhite | | Lily White |
| Merlan Prismriver | | Merlin Prismriver |
| Rilica Prismriver | | Lyrica Prismriver |
| Onoduka Komachi | | Onozuka Komachi |
Source: http://www.comptiq.com/release/comic/55touhou_owabi.html (dead)
crosspost to use for later reference
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Can we all just agree to start calling Chen "Tcheng"? :derp:
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So, do kappa really kill people in the touhouverse? The print media seems to point at this but the manga make them seem so cute, and from what i have heard, the subject is brought up even in 13.5, so, i am really confused and concerned.
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Kappa in folklore are said to love eating shirikodamas, a mythical organ located inside a human's anus that is said to contain their soul. Removing it klls the person.
Nitori has danmaku that references shirikodamas in Double Spoiler, and SPOILER FOR 13.5 when encountering the whole village frozen with Kokoro's masks in 13.5
she comments on how easy it'd be to collect everyone's shirikodamas, but that's all there is to it.
Akyuu states in her monologue in PmISS that nobody really gets killed by youkai in Gensokyou nowadays; therefore I"d assume that kappa are not colecting this delicacy for consumption anymore... at least not from the Human Village. Yukari does makes some ominous comments about youkai getting their stomachs filled with a supply from somewhere in WaHH.
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True, but what do peaceful kappas need with a device said to extract them as said in SiPM? Granted Marisa and Akyu could be lying, but....
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Kappa invent a lot of useless things, like mist capturing nets and steam powered robot ballons that can achieve nirvana. Just because they made it doesn't really mean that they use it. 'Sides, it's part of their nature to crave for the balls; maybe it's a way to remember people what kappa will do to you. Youkai in general need to remind people that they should be feared, after all.
And who knows. Maybe they are using it. Just not on the Human Village humans.
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Granted Marisa and Akyu could be lying, but....
I am laughing so hard oh my god
I am sure if I point this out as a quote, you can see just what is wrong with it. Look veeeeeeeeery closely.
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Despite what fandom would make one believe, Marisa doesn't lie about everything all the time. Unless there's a specific reason to believe that she's lying (some canon source stating clearly that the shirikodama-extracting thingy doesn't exist, for example), there's no reason to not take the statement at face value.
'Sides, the Shiriko Device is described as "unnecessary" by Akyuu, which could mean that they don't really use it (or that they are naturally good enough at extracting them balls, so the device is redundant).
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In Wild And Horned Hermit Reimu seems to be desperately searching for an excuse to go ape on the Kappa, but she doesn't come up with anything and has to leave them alone
or not, based on Kasen's farcical web of lies
. If they were regularly ass-killing random humans she probably wouldn't have had to find another reason to exterminate them.
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Despite what fandom would make one believe, Marisa doesn't lie about everything all the time. Unless there's a specific reason to believe that she's lying (some canon source stating clearly that the shirikodama-extracting thingy doesn't exist, for example), there's no reason to not take the statement at face value.
Didn't Shikieiki call Marisa on her excessive lying back in PoFV?
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Didn't Shikieiki call Marisa on her excessive lying back in PoFV?
It's Shiki, she calls EVERYONE on something.
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It's Shiki, she calls EVERYONE on something.
Wasn't most of of what she called everyone out on spot on though..?
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Didn't Shikieiki call Marisa on her excessive lying back in PoFV?
Wasn't most of of what she called everyone out on spot on though..?
Agreed. If we're going to reason that we have no reason to assume Marisa is lying about any given thing she says that should count triple for Shikieki,
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I'll just return a bit to the kappa device to say, it's coul be that the Akyuu learned about it during on of the kappa bazars that she mentions. We don't really know the extent of Marisa's influence in the writting of the book, after all.
Back to Marisa's lying... like Akyuu's mistakes, misinformations and exaggerations, it's pretty much obvious when it happens. When I made my "Marisa doesn't lie all the time", it was more in response to Setsakura implying that SoPM is unreliable solely because of its authors; Marisa isn't really show to lie about descriptions of danmaku and spell cards, for instance, so why would she lie about a list of items that the kappa have? Doesn't make sense, and nothing points towards that.
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I'll just return a bit to the kappa device to say, it's coul be that the Akyuu learned about it during on of the kappa bazars that she mentions. We don't really know the extent of Marisa's influence in the writting of the book, after all.
Back to Marisa's lying... like Akyuu's mistakes, misinformations and exaggerations, it's pretty much obvious when it happens. When I made my "Marisa doesn't lie all the time", it was more in response to Setsakura implying that SoPM is unreliable solely because of its authors; Marisa isn't really show to lie about descriptions of danmaku and spell cards, for instance, so why would she lie about a list of items that the kappa have? Doesn't make sense, and nothing points towards that.
Sounds like standard embellishment to me. She potentially exaggerates the danger some of the tamer creatures pose so that they, and by extension she and her book, seem more exciting. There's nothing to suggest that she's definitely lying, but that doesn't seem terribly unlikely for a lie given that she is known to do so sometimes.
That isn't to say Kappa are totally harmless, given that they could have easily hurt someone with their landslide shenanigans in Wild And Horned Hermit unless they took some safety precautions we didn't hear about
, but I don't think modern Gensokyo Kappa seem to be so much malicious as sometimes careless.
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That isn't to say Kappa are totally harmless, given that they could have easily hurt someone with their landslide shenanigans in Wild And Horned Hermit unless they took some safety precautions we didn't hear about
, but I don't think modern Gensokyo Kappa seem to be so much malicious as sometimes careless.
Either that or Kanako is bossing them into rushing designs out without doing safety testing. :V
The kappa should form a worker's union. :getdown:
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Sounds like standard embellishment to me. She potentially exaggerates the danger some of the tamer creatures pose so that they, and by extension she and her book, seem more exciting. There's nothing to suggest that she's definitely lying, but that doesn't seem terribly unlikely for a lie given that she is known to do so sometimes.
I don't believe it is standard embellishment, as Kappa are known to do it. Hopeless Masquerade pretty much confirms this, if the other works and games wasn't enough proof.
There may be slight exaggerations, but I would not say by much. The threat chart is listed for normal humans. That book is not even publicly available until PMiSS, so it is not about making the book more exciting. It is about warning humans the dangers that they could face.
As for giving theories and the like, you know when she does it, since she pretty much tells you so.
That isn't to say Kappa are totally harmless, given that they could have easily hurt someone with their landslide shenanigans in Wild And Horned Hermit unless they took some safety precautions we didn't hear about, but I don't think modern Gensokyo Kappa seem to be so much malicious as sometimes careless.
Maliciousness and carelessness are no different when it comes to endangering humans. The end result is the same, threat to humans. That is mainly what the threat level chart is about. It isn't that some characters are malicious, if they were, the said human would be dead. It is that being around them poses danger.
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The main issue with the threat charts are that it's Akyuu's analysis from her knowledge. It seems mostly accurate for sure, but when you get to the Chireiden group in particular, Akyuu rates at least the Komeiji sisters a bit higher than she should, because nobody has been in contact with them for very long. Her descriptions of Satori and Koishi are based on previous knowledge of former hell, the satori, and how they were hated. It's the uninformed narrator thing going on, even if for the most part it's accurate.
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Satori, I am unsure why it is very high, but Koishi's threat is unknown. Satori's threat level may be related to her location.
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I might be wrong, but I think the threat level doesn't indicate how strong they are. It's a mix of how likely they'll attack you and how strong they are.
I know it's been said so many times but take a look at Eiki. She had a low threat level because she won't just sentence anyone she met, though she'll lecture those who need it. So she's not that dangerous. Another example is Byakuren, Akyuu know that she won't attack or kill humans but she still have doubt about her, thus giving her an unknown threat level because she's not sure about it(or Byakuren is actually hiding some awesome ability, who knows?).
For the Chireiden group, it's probably because Akyuu doesn't have enough information(Okuu), don't understand how they think(Koishi), and only rate it based on past knowledge rather than actual experience with them(Satori). It's already been said that Akyuu does travel and interview some of those Youkai, she probably never had the chance to go underground.
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Sort of correct. It isn't "how likely they'll attack you", but essentially a danger or threat level of that youkai passively being around humans. Human friendship level is more of an indicator of how likely a youkai might be antagonistic towards humans. For example, Yuyuko's human friendship level is high, but her danger level is very high, because humans simply being around her may lead them to death. Eiki poses little danger to humans because nothing about her causes a possibility of danger.
Byakuren is at an unknown threat level due to the shakiness of her claims that she wants human-youkai equality. Her whole character is about the inconsistencies between her words and actions, her lack of relevant knowledge on how Gensokyo works, how she will dubiously defend youkai who might have say, attacked a human village and is being retaliated upon. She has a bias for youkai, possibly against humans, and either doesn't think she does or doesn't want to admit it. It's that sort of uncertainty with her that causes the unknown threat level.
The part about Chireiden is what I was saying earlier, too.
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I might be wrong, but I think the threat level doesn't indicate how strong they are. It's a mix of how likely they'll attack you and how strong they are.
Yeah, I made no mention about it being how strong they are, but I may have mention the possible effects, because they are strong. I believe Threat Level has to do with how dangerous it is to be around them. Which is why I don't understand the Very High threat for Satori. I don't believe it is that dangerous to be around Satori.
So, I conclude that because Satori never actually leaves Chireiden, which is a very dangerous area, it may be why you see the Very High threat level. In this case, I think if you are around her, you are in Palace of the Earth Spirits, which is a very dangerous. Either that or the animals and spirits around her is dangerous and thus the very high threat level.
For the Chireiden group, it's probably because Akyuu doesn't have enough information(Okuu), don't understand how they think(Koishi), and only rate it based on past knowledge rather than actual experience with them(Satori). It's already been said that Akyuu does travel and interview some of those Youkai, she probably never had the chance to go underground.
I also do not think she has went underground. But I am unsure, since she does mention something specific about the Palace of Earth Spirits. Like saying it comes with equipped with heated floors. How does she know this? Has she been there before during her time serving the Yama(probably Eiki)?
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It would be possible that Akyuu has asked other people like Marisa how the Former Hell is like nowadays.
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How would Marisa know this? I assume she was flying when she went in Chireiden. At least that is what happens in the games.
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Marisa's very likely been down to Chireiden afterwards, as she does with basically everywhere she's gone before. The information Akyuu received is almost definitely Marisa's accounts. Even if it weren't true, I could easily see Marisa joking that Chireiden has heated floors. Seriously that's hilarious.
Reimu is also confirmed to have at least talked to Akyuu about them.
The very high threat level, as said before, is likely due to gaps in knowledge being filled by what Akyuu already figured satori were like, and their history with former hell. It's at odds with her countermeasures, where she says Satori is a terrifying youkai but won't attack you, and because she's alone so often she probably isn't very strong, but her strength is actually unknown. She's just being overly wary from the lack of information.
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Speaking of Akyuu, I've always wondered...
Her brain is well developed but her body is weak. She's unfortunate for having a short life even amongst the short-lived humans.
If Akyuu (or pretty much any Child of Miare) is frail, how does she document incidents in the Gensokyo Chronicle? Does she ask the heroines to retell what happened in vivid detail, and then purely imagining what it was like would stick in her memory? I mean, dude. Danmaku battles are some dangerous business. :V
EDIT should have read more carefully. She does travel, but the point about her being frail still stands.
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Speaking of Akyuu, I've always wondered...If Akyuu (or pretty much any Child of Miare) is frail, how does she document incidents in the Gensokyo Chronicle? Does she ask the heroines to retell what happened in vivid detail, and then purely imagining what it was like would stick in her memory? I mean, dude. Danmaku battles are some dangerous business. :V
Pretty much yeah. Like in SOPM, she got Marisa, Kanako, Byakuren and Miko to have a talk with eachother, so she must have asked about the events and the youkais involved in them.
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Akyuu and Hatate should hang out. Thoughtography would probably be pretty handy for a historian.
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Pretty much yeah. Like in SOPM, she got Marisa, Kanako,
Byakuren and Miko to have a talk with eachother, so she
must have asked about the events and the youkais involved in
them.
Ah. I thought so. SoPM is kind of different in terms of how, well, SPECIAL it was. I do imagine Akyuu calling over the person who resolved the incident. Unless the creature who caused the incident has become or is calm, it would be too dangerous for Akyuu to talk to them directly. In terms of "danger" its probably from lower tier bosses (in game terms, not in power. its already been established that stage is not a reliable measure of power) like Rumia, Yoshika, Okuu (pretty
much either stupid or are under a more capable master or even both) ect. These are just examples. For example, Rumia causes a shakeup by trying to lure away children from the Human Village in broad daylight. Reimu happens to be there and danmakus the bejeebus out of her. After all's swell, Akyuu would interview Reimu on the matter. If she interviews Rumia, she'll probably try to retaliate, because she's a total dunce. Okuu showed how truly stupid she is in SWR2.
Sanae: Wait, wait! I'm a shrine maiden of Lady Kanako!
Utsuho: Um. Who's Lady Kanako?
As for Yoshika it simply goes by saying she's a jiang shi. Basically, she should rot quickly, but Seiga put that charm on her which makes not only resistant to rot but makes her obey
her every command. Seiga doesn't like Akyuu snooping around too much? Snack for Yoshika.
Also, all of the people who caused incidents don't really fit into these catogories, nor do their allies/servants. Even if Yuyuko is a bit of an airhead, she would probably have no
problem talking to Akyuu.
Akyuu and Hatate should hang out. Thoughtography would
probably be pretty handy for a historian.
Mm, didn't Aya help edit some of PMiSS? Maybe she could introduce the two formally. A great contrast between modern (to an extent) and old fashioned. ;)
Ah, my internet wasn't working so I saved to my pen memo...totally messed up the format. I fixed the blaring html errors, but I'll come back for the work on the spacing. Welp, way to learn your lesson. :P
EDIT fixed!! hopefully no one saw that, it's super embarrassing.
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zun being amazing: issue 2136
(http://nazr.in/4Vs)
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zun being amazing: issue 2136
(http://nazr.in/4Vs)
Heh, I laughed when I was reading OSP and saw that. I was like, "Wait a minute..."
FS shows a scene of her waking up from the coffin too. Apparently she shoves the lid off to the side and just leaves it there the rest of the day. Charisma break.
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It must be noted, in FS Ch 6, Akyuu has been shown to be unusually strong, healthy and energetic. She carried a full jar of sake in one hand to Suzunaan, without breaking a sweat or panting, then immediately launched into a lecture about her plans.
I take it as a sign that she has found some way to extend her life, and her mortality will never be a problem again.
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Pretty much yeah. Like in SOPM, she got Marisa, Kanako, Byakuren and Miko to have a talk with eachother, so she must have asked about the events and the youkais involved in them.
Akyuu travels quite a bit, a lot more than any 10 year old(Approximate age when PMiSS is out) should be doing. She has been to Forest of Magic, Garden of the Sun, and Road of Reconsideration. The last area being quite dangerous.
I don't think a normal 10 year old can travel to those places, so Akyuu should be in better shape than the average human.
Marisa's very likely been down to Chireiden afterwards, as she does with basically everywhere she's gone before. The information Akyuu received is almost definitely Marisa's accounts. Even if it weren't true, I could easily see Marisa joking that Chireiden has heated floors. Seriously that's hilarious.
Reimu is also confirmed to have at least talked to Akyuu about them.
The reason why I guess that Akyuu could have been there is because there is another place she described, which I think no character, but Eiki, Komachi, or Yuyuko could have been to. And that area is Higan. The only way she would be able to describe that area is either to ask one of those 3 or to have been there herself.
And the way she talks about it, unlike Capitol of the Moon, seems to imply she has been there. In the latter, she mentions how Capitol of the Moon "is said blah blah blah". In the former, she just describes Higan, without hinting that she is getting it from another source.
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I actually wonder how much tine ends up passing before Akyuu gets resurrected each time.
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I actually wonder how much tine ends up passing before Akyuu gets resurrected each time.
It takes nearly a hundred years to prepare her body for the next reincarnation. She spends that time working for the Yama in Hell.
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It takes nearly a hundred years to prepare her body for the next reincarnation. She spends that time working for the Yama in Hell.
Aye, thanks. Though next question involving Akyuu is that is the twenty year age always been there or did Aichi (The original Akyuu) live longer but with each resurrection her time to live has been gradually decreased? In Foreword of PMISS, she says
We, the Hieda family, decided to collect information about Gensokyo's most prominent youkai every one hundred twenty to one hundred eighty years in order to ensure humans to live in safety.
So that made me wonder.
Also, does each incarnation of Akyuu born in the current Hieda falimy what might live during that time or does she born in some random family until she can regain all of her memories?
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I figured she didn't say "It is said" regarding Higan because she retained her memories of the place when she was dead and worked for the yama. Though that's rather speculative, of course.
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I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but can Hatate control wind? Is the manipulation of wind an innate ability of the tengu or does it vary from tengu to tengu?
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I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but can Hatate control wind? Is the manipulation of wind an innate ability of the tengu or does it vary from tengu to tengu?
Nothing about Hatate implies she uses wind manipulation, so either she isn't trained enough to use it or she just doesn't bother.
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Manipulating wind is said to be a natural trait for tengu. But Hatate was never seen using it, so there's no telling how good she is at it.
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Also, does each incarnation of Akyuu born in the current Hieda falimy what might live during that time or does she born in some random family until she can regain all of her memories?
I'm pretty sure it is not random. But it could well be.
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(This is primarily for cuc, but of course anyone else feel free to jump in.)
I seem to recall you drawing parallels between Kokoro and this goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto). I can definitely see some parallels there, but I was wondering if you could expand on your thoughts.
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(This is primarily for cuc, but of course anyone else feel free to jump in.)
I seem to recall you drawing parallels between Kokoro and this goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto). I can definitely see some parallels there, but I was wondering if you could expand on your thoughts.
That statue in the article looks just like Kokoro's "lady like" mask...
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I have a question, not sure if goes here...
Are there any models for MMD, or GTA:SA of the new girls?
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I have a question, not sure if goes here...
Are there any models for MMD, or GTA:SA of the new girls?
Not yet. Even if there are, they're probably low quality 12 year old on deviantart quality.
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Any idea why no one just cut down the Saigyouji tree in the first place if it's such a threat? :V
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Any idea why no one just cut down the Saigyouji tree in the first place if it's such a threat? :V
I believe it's Youmu's job to make sure that doesn't happen as the Netherworld's Gardner. Even if the Saigyou is a massive threat to everyone, Yuyuko likes it, therefore Youmu will cut YOU down before even getting close to the tree.
On a related note, does Yuyuko ever learn that it's her corpse sealing the tree?
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It's said that she doesn't know who she's trying to unseal, and she whimsically stops caring about it after PCB. Problem is you can never really tell with Yuyuko.
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TVTropes stated that Yuyuko got her memory back, but I can't really remember seeing that in any dialogues or endings or canon source. Maybe my memory is off.
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"tvtropes stated"
EDIT: I just mean that it isn't a great idea to take TVT as a really valid source of information, especially without citation.
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"tvtropes stated"
Normally we try to edit out clearly false stuff, but it's been a long time since I saw PCB's endings.
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Yea, that's what I'm saying. I'm trying to figure out where TVtropes got it from cause I don't recall seeing any of that in any endings or canon source.
....well, Yuyuko's body sealing the tree is in Perfect Memento (Gensokyo Chronicles) so I guess it's public information anyways, now. Question is whether or not Yuyuko reads that thing.
Yuyuko: My body is the one sealing it? GASP! Youmu, this is an amazing and shocking revelation!!!
Youmu: That's been public information for years, now. -_-
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EDIT: I just mean that it isn't a great idea to take TVT as a really valid source of information, especially without citation.
True of the wiki as well: both are secondary sources of information and, as both leave ample space for fan theory in the articles, being sure a claim cites a primary source is especially important.
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as can be seen from a certain thread and people just taking the wiki's word for everything cough cough
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How old is Patchouli, if there's any official word?
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@Yuyuko's memory: At the end of Cage in Lunatic Runagate, the way Yuyuko talks seems like an indication that her memory may have possibly return, but other than that, I'm not sure where that would come from.
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How old is Patchouli, if there's any official word?
About a 100 years old. So it says in her EoSD profile.
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How old is Patchouli, if there's any official word?
EoSD omake:
４面ボスです。お嬢様のお友達で大体１００年は魔女をしています。
The stage 4 boss. She's the mistress' friend and has lived for about 100 years as a magician.
PMiSS:
彼女は、生粋の魔法使いであり、既に百年以上生きているという。
She's a natural-born magician, and it's said she has already lived for more than 100 years.
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Among Byakuren's original followers in UFO, Shou and Nazrin were the only ones not sealed with the ship right? So where were they the whole time before the events of UFO? Did Shou hide and lay low in Gensokyo until her friends are freed, or did she stay in the outside world?
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From Shou's UFO profile:
When Byakuren was sealed away, she was completely focused on carrying out her duties as Bishamonten. She kept the fact that she was a youkai a secret from humans. She had her regrets about this, but it would have been self-destructive to reveal her true identity.
We can theorize she was performing her duties as an avatar of Bishamonten in front of people, whatever they may be. They saw her as nothing more than that, not realizing she's a youkai too, so she had no need to hide. But whether that was in Gensokyo or outside world is indeed an interesting question with no official answer.
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I think she would be in the Outside world. As far as we know, there weren't any temples devoted to Bishamonten in Gensokyo before UFO. And if there were, wouldn't it be weird that it has never been mentioned that an avatar of a major god has been serving there for 1000 years? (But then again we never knew Keine, effectively the village's guardian, existed before IN).
If she were really from the Outside World, people must have thought "Dude, where the heck did Shou go??" :V
Also, same question, but were Seiga, Yoshika, and Tojiko in Gensokyo before TD? Futo and Miko were sleeping in the mausoleum, but Tojiko was roaming free as a ghost, right?
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Also, same question, but were Seiga, Yoshika, and Tojiko in Gensokyo before TD? Futo and Miko were sleeping in the mausoleum, but Tojiko was roaming free as a ghost, right?
This actually brings up a question I have: How do some poeple get through Hakurei Barrier? I mean, Mamizou clearly was living in Human World before Nue asked for help. So how did she get pass the Hakurei Barrier?
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This actually brings up a question I have: How do some poeple get through Hakurei Barrier? I mean, Mamizou clearly was living in Human World before Nue asked for help. So how did she get pass the Hakurei Barrier?
Which also brings the question...how did Nue ask Mamizou for help, anyway?
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I'm curious about that too but I guess them keeping a low profile is the most likely answer to that. It might be more than that though.
Regarding Mamizou, the Hakurei shrine exist in both sides and you can enter from there. She probably knew about it and entered from there. As for Nue, I dunno. I remember I've read somewhere about Akyuu mentioning that some Youkai sometimes formed a group and went outside the border to hunt for humans but I believe they need permission from Reimu or Yukari. Maybe that's how Nue got out?
To be honest, I'm more curious about what Byakuren were doing during her time in Hokkai. It is already revealed in SoPM that her seal only prevents her from going out, she's not bounded or anything. I like to think that aside from reading sutras, she spend her time there traveling around Hokkai, bumped into some material that was later made into her scroll, maybe fight some beings there, or found some other interesting things if Devil's Recitation is any indication.
I got this idea after reading a doujin. While Byakuren is in Hokkai, Shinki got interested in gaming and created some monsters from MH and the demons from SMT(including Hitoshura) that Byakuren ended up fighting(read: befriending). Pretty much doing a training in hell.
I had hoped that maybe she'll talk about Hokkai a little in HM but unfortunately she didn't. That would've been interesting since it could shed some light about that place. Of course, she might actually just spent her whole time reading sutras. But man, 1000 years, she's got some patience.
Also, regarding her magic, she basically have two. Buddhist magic that was taught to her by Myouren, which she probably perfected after his death, and her so called 'evil' Dark magic, which is pretty vague other than it is said to come from youkai and is the key to her youth. I'm curious about what made hers particularly 'evil', I thought we'll see some of it in HM but I think they didn't mention anything about it. I think we don't have enough info about it so I won't go there.
What I'm wondering is, which one is her 'buffing' magic? If we go by HM, she should be using her Buddhist one, what with the names and such, implying it's her buffing magic. However, in the wiki or her profile, it's said that the magic that is demonic in nature is the buffing magic, or there might be some mistranslation here. For a human to turn into a magician youkai, they must keep training their magic, usually the one they specialize, until they become a youkai. That's why I figured that her buffing magic is her demonic one, but I'm not so sure now.
Is Byakuren using a combination of her Buddhist and Youkai magic? Or she's still hiding something more?
While I'm at it, how good do you think she is compared to Marisa, Alice, and Patchouli in general about magic?
I like to think that she's better than even Patchouli, she won't be called a Great Magician for nothing, right?
What do you guys think?
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Akyuu says Byakuren's evil magic is based on her Buddhist magic. It's one and the same. While surely Byakuren would disagree about what makes magic good and evil, the implication is that it's a corruption of the holy magic.
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Akyuu says Byakuren's evil magic is based on her Buddhist magic. It's one and the same. While surely Byakuren would disagree about what makes magic good and evil, the implication is that it's a corruption of the holy magic.
Does she use the words "based on"? Because that's not "one and the same".
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Does she use the words "based on"? Because that's not "one and the same".
She says "carried to the extremes of", which we have translated as "derived from". Well, even if it's not "one and the same" the point is simply that it doesn't come from some separate means. She just uses Buddhist art evilly.
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She says "carried to the extremes of", which we have translated as "derived from".
OK, I was just confused there, as you'd said "one and the same", which clearly isn't the case, but then "corruption of holy magic", which would make a lot more sense.
So Byakuren's particular magic is based on Buddhism, but is its own, corrupted, extreme of this faith then. If I understand you right.
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She says "carried to the extremes of", which we have translated as "derived from". Well, even if it's not "one and the same" the point is simply that it doesn't come from some separate means. She just uses Buddhist art evilly.
I get what you're saying, but her profile, especially the UFO one, suggest that it's a different thing entirely. Maybe I have to read it again...
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Her UFO profile barely goes over her magic. She obtained Buddhist magic with Myouren, trained in fear of death, and gained powers that were more like black magic. Even without explicitly saying so it suggests the black magic came from the Buddhist magic rather than it being something new. SoPM elaborates on this:
彼女の魔法は、仏法を極めた事で身に付けた物である。
Her magic was acquired by taking Buddhism to its extremes.
しかし、大乗仏教（＊３）の道からは外れ、魔に魅入られた力を持っている。
However, she has strayed from the path of Mahayana and possesses demon-influenced/possessed power.
(Mahayana is basically what Byakuren preaches: by helping/saving everyone, nobody will suffer. It's absurdly idealistic but fits as a path of Buddhism.)
EDIT: I want to write a bit more about your post above, when I have a bit more time.
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This actually brings up a question I have: How do some poeple get through Hakurei Barrier? I mean, Mamizou clearly was living in Human World before Nue asked for help. So how did she get pass the Hakurei Barrier?
Isn't there supposed to be like a Hakurei shrine in japan too? I assume you could travel to Gensokyo that way. It may also be other places that are sort of - entrances to Gensokyo. I'm not sure how it works, considering humans from the outside world can randomly end up in Gensokyo.
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It's implied that there a few paths in and out of Gensokyo, known only to youkai. I imagine the boundary is weak in certain remote caves, forests, fairy rings, etc.
Some of the humans who end up in Gensokyo were brought there by youkai, and others just got sucked through a random wormhole like the turtle guy (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Third_Chapter) (reality is fragile, just ask post-hospitalisation Maribel).
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The outside Hakurei barrier works similarly to the Road of Reconsideration (i.e. also a weak point for several boundaries incl. the outside, Muenzuka and the Netherworld), where people who get near become dazed and confused and wander off back whence they came. I presume that if you wanted to go to Gensokyo and knew where it was and what the area's effects are (and had some magical ability), you could dispel the illusion and move through the barrier.
i can't remember where this is stated though
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Which also brings the question...how did Nue ask Mamizou for help, anyway?
She's an Ex-Boss, she probably has a way to contact someone from the outside world. Same deal with how someone from the outside entering Gensokyo.
Just look at how the Scarlet Devil Mansion crew and the Mountain of Faith crew entered Gensokyo. They either magically forced their way in or something.
The outside Hakurei barrier works similarly to the Road of Reconsideration (i.e. also a weak point for several boundaries incl. the outside, Muenzuka and the Netherworld), where people who get near become dazed and confused and wander off back whence they came. I presume that if you wanted to go to Gensokyo and knew where it was and what the area's effects are (and had some magical ability), you could dispel the illusion and move through the barrier.
i can't remember where this is stated though
First part is mentioned in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense on the article about Road of Reconsideration (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Road_of_Reconsideration). I believe Curiosities of Lotus Asia also mentions that a few times.
It is kind of surprising that Akyuu, at the age of about 10 visited here, as this place is High on the threat level. What with youkai waiting to ambush people and all that.
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Quick question, where does Akyuu live? I know she has her family mansion where she lives, but is it in the Human Village or close to it?
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Quick question, where does Akyuu live? I know she has her family mansion where she lives, but is it in the Human Village or close to it?
Almost certainly in the Human Village, although I can't remembered if this was confirmed anywhere. Um... in the latest chapter of FS Marisa is walking down a street when she hears something from Akyuu's house, which leads to a little "this is Akyuu's house, isn't it?" Given that she was on a street and not intentionally visiting Akyuu's house, I'd say that makes it pretty obvious that Akyuu's house is just a part of the village. Not that I ever doubted it before. She seems to be treated as something of a village elder because of her expertise on youkai.
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(This is primarily for cuc, but of course anyone else feel free to jump in.)
I seem to recall you drawing parallels between Kokoro and this goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto). I can definitely see some parallels there, but I was wondering if you could expand on your thoughts.
That was pre-release speculation.
The logic was: the character is a kagura/noh dancer; the kashiwa leaf in the logo, being the symbol of priests, implies the new character is a dancing shaman, a messenger of the gods. Since Ame-no-uzume's dance is sometimes said to be the first kagura dance, she is kind of the iconic dancing shaman.
However, the logo turned out to be a red herring. Thematically, HM is a continuation of UFO, TD and SoPM, all about the sociology of religion, and does not at all deal with the religions' mythologies and metaphysics.
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We know how you can reach the Sanzu River on foot in Gensokyo, right? And we know souls are ferried across Sanzu River to Higan so that they can be judged, right?
So I wonder, is Gensokyo the only gateway to the Sanzu River in the world, or are there multiple gateways? Do all the souls in the world float off to Gensokyo to reach the Sanzu River and pass on, or do only the souls of Gensokyo take this gateway? And do only souls who believe in Shintoism/Buddhism go to Sanzu River, or all souls regardless of religion?
If all the souls in the world took this path, I can imagine you'd be drowning in souls and spirits every day in Gensokyo. :ohdear:
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I'm not sure, but I think that Komachi is specifically Gensokyo's ferryman (Shiki is explicitly said to be Gensokyo's Yama, so presumably she only judges the souls that come from there. If Komachi is her direct servant, it'd stand to reason that she only ferries souls from Gensokyo); therefore, that section of the Sanzu river is probably only visited by souls from Gensokyo.
I think that there are lots of places all over the world that one can (and, eventually, will) cross to reach different parts of the river (each with it's own ferryman), but I don't think there's anything in canon that can support this.
Maybe there are different destinies for people that belong to different faiths, but IIRC we don't really have any evidence for or against this.
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Although souls from the outside world can leak into Gensokyo and Komachi needs to ferry them, like what happened in PoFV.
As Touhou is based on the eastern mythologies, we don't know about the truth about other, western religions. Who knows, maybe River Styx is the same thing as Sanzu river, just called by a different name, and Charon is a Shinigami located in Greece. Or maybe there are multiple processes of the afterlife, and which one you go through depends on which one you believes. On a sidenote, according to Seiga, Jesus did exist and ressurected 3 days after his death, although it is debatable if Seiga actually know this or just happened to hear it somewhere.
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Since every of Kokoro's masks are supposed to represent an emotion, what does the fox mask represent?
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Since every of Kokoro's masks are supposed to represent an emotion, what does the fox mask represent?
Since she basically wears it when she decides to kill you, probably murderous intent or something.
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So I wonder, is Gensokyo the only gateway to the Sanzu River in the world, or are there multiple gateways? Do all the souls in the world float off to Gensokyo to reach the Sanzu River and pass on, or do only the souls of Gensokyo take this gateway? And do only souls who believe in Shintoism/Buddhism go to Sanzu River, or all souls regardless of religion?
I'm guessing there are multiple ways to cross the Sanzu River. But my assumption is all faiths will go to the Sanzu River and pass on to Higan where they receive judgement.
I'm not sure, but I think that Komachi is specifically Gensokyo's ferryman (Shiki is explicitly said to be Gensokyo's Yama, so presumably she only judges the souls that come from there. If Komachi is her direct servant, it'd stand to reason that she only ferries souls from Gensokyo)
Not sure if she is Gensokyo's Yama, but she is the highest judge of paradise.
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My impression was that "Xanadu" was a larger legal jurisdiction that happened to include Gensokyo. But not only Gensokyo. So she's the judge of Gensokyo, and no one else will ever judge souls coming from Gensokyo, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't judge anyone else.
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Also, didn't she say something like other Yamas except her getting a lot of souls to judge in PoFV? That probably implies that not all souls go through Gensokyo.
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...why would all souls go through Gensokyo? Was anyone thinking they did?
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Wasn't the incident of PoFV caused by souls from the outside world? That would suggest that some souls do go through Gensokyo after death. Or maybe it's just a special occasion every 60 years?
Although that I'm thinking more about it, it might be because those souls are part of Eiki/Komachi's area of charge (assuming those two covers an area larger than Gensokyo), so they went to the nearest entrance to the afterlife : Gensokyo.
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Not sure if she is Gensokyo's Yama, but she is the highest judge of paradise.
PMiSS: "As she is in charge of judging the dead of Gensokyo, she is the Yama with the closest ties to us", emphasis mine (also, reading the Yama entry (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Yama) shows that each Jizou statue that became a Yama is in charge of judging the souls of their place of origin). And if there's anyone Akyuu would certainly know much about, it's Eiki, seeing as how she spents 100 years working for her and all.
...makes me wonder why there isn't more Akyuu/Eiki stuff, now that I think about it.
Wasn't the incident of PoFV caused by souls from the outside world? That would suggest that some souls do go through Gensokyo after death. Or maybe it's just a special occasion every 60 years?
It's a special event that only happens every 60 years, yeah. Yukari explains the reason in this (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Seasonal_Dream_Vision/A_Beautiful_Flower_Blooming_Violet_Every_Sixty_Years) story from Seasonal Dream Vision (it's written by ZUN, so it can safely be considered canon).
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PMiSS: "As she is in charge of judging the dead of Gensokyo, she is the Yama with the closest ties to us", emphasis mine (also, reading the Yama entry shows that each Jizou statue that became a Yama is in charge of judging the souls of their place of origin). And if there's anyone Akyuu would certainly know much about, it's Eiki, seeing as how she spents 100 years working for her and all.
Yeah, I know. What I mean is it doesn't exclude her from judging other areas. Yes, Akyuu would definitely know quite a bit about the dead. She most likely worked with Eiki and Komachi and maybe Yuyuko and Youmu.
Although that I'm thinking more about it, it might be because those souls are part of Eiki/Komachi's area of charge (assuming those two covers an area larger than Gensokyo), so they went to the nearest entrance to the afterlife : Gensokyo.
Eiki is in Higan. That area is not in Gensokyo. I don't think there are any clues on where it is at, other than the fact that you need to cross the Sanzu River.
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Is there any particular reason why things from the outside world end up in Gensokyo. The Crested Ibis from Curiosities of Lotus Asia, for example. Did they just migrate into Gensokyo? A similar question is, does anything prevent new, non-forgotten items from entering Gensokyo?
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Is there any particular reason why things from the outside world end up in Gensokyo. The Crested Ibis from Curiosities of Lotus Asia, for example. Did they just migrate into Gensokyo? A similar question is, does anything prevent new, non-forgotten items from entering Gensokyo?
Forgotten or disbelieved things just teleport there on their own. This is what happened to Miko: her tomb entered Gensokyo once historians started questioning whether Prince Shoutoku actually existed (which they are questioning, in real life). Presumably this is how the Barrier was designed. The Crested Ibis are an interesting problem though, because a recent FS chapter claimed that the Barrier has no effect on animals. Endangered animals have been mentioned as appearing in Gensokyo several times though, so maybe that's an exception?
As for preventing new things from entering Gensokyo, the Barrier only seems to work on humans. Sunlight and animals and weather and whatnot can come in from outside, or so says Kanako (what about PCB?). It basically exists to keep humans out. So the only reason technology and whatnot haven't proliferated into Gensokyo is because no one can bring it in.
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In most BGMs in th135, someone's name is mentioned along with a certain instrument.
How should I interpret this? I thought the BGMs were digitally created?
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Yeah, I know. What I mean is it doesn't exclude her from judging other areas. Yes, Akyuu would definitely know quite a bit about the dead. She most likely worked with Eiki and Komachi and maybe Yuyuko and Youmu.
While she probably does so if needed (like every 60 years), I don't think it's the norm; otherwise a Yama's jurisdiction wouldn't need to be based on location.
In most BGMs in th135, someone's name is mentioned along with a certain instrument.
How should I interpret this? I thought the BGMs were digitally created?
I'm not sure, but I think that the music from the fighting games are all played on real instruments.
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Sunlight and animals and weather and whatnot can come in from outside, or so says Kanako (what about PCB?).
Where does Kanako say that? Also what about PCB?
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Where does Kanako say that?
SoPM.
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In the fighting games, some instruments that can't be emulated by synthesizers are played by real instruments, most notably the violins.
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While she probably does so if needed (like every 60 years), I don't think it's the norm; otherwise a Yama's jurisdiction wouldn't need to be based on location.
I think you're missing the point. It says she judges everything from Gensokyo, yes, but that just means Gensokyo is within her jurisdiction, not that it necessarily covers her entire jurisdiction. Her title is literally "Yama of Xanadu" so unless Xanadu is a synonym for Gensokyo it's actually implied that her jurisdiction is larger than that. Think of Gensokyo as a city within a larger country. Eiki is in charge of that country (Xanadu) which includes Gensokyo. The "Yama of Germany" judges all souls from Berlin, but Berlin isn't the only place in Germany.
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I'm... not sure that's the actual reasoning of her title, or where you're getting that from. Consider the fact that absolutely nowhere it's said that she judges anything other than Gensokyo souls. And considering that the real Xanadu was the capital of a Chinese dynasty, it doesn't make any sense to say that her jurisdiction involves an actual place called Xanadu; rather, like the wiki states, her title is better translated as "Yama of Paradise" (based on the use of "Xanadu" as "Pleasure Palace" in a poem [which was also refering to the real Xanadu]), which I'm pretty sure is just a rank title and not a literal description of what her jurisdiction is.
Alternatively, it could be exactly that, and "paradise" is just a way to refer to Gensokyo, and maybe other fantastic realms similar to it, if there's any at all.
But all that is pure speculation; going by the only info we have for sure, there's nothing suggesting that she regularly judges souls from outside of Gensokyo (except for every 60 years). Otherwise, Akyuu would at least write "judges all the souls of Gensokyo and more" or something like that on her profile.
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I'm... not sure that's the actual reasoning of her title, or where you're getting that from. Consider the fact that absolutely nowhere it's said that she judges anything other than Gensokyo souls. And considering that the real Xanadu was the capital of a Chinese dynasty, it doesn't make any sense to say that her jurisdiction involves an actual place called Xanadu; rather, like the wiki states, her title is better translated as "Yama of Paradise" (based on the use of "Xanadu" as "Pleasure Palace" in a poem [which was also refering to the real Xanadu]), which I'm pretty sure is just a rank title and not a literal description of what her jurisdiction is.
Alternatively, it could be exactly that, and "paradise" is just a way to refer to Gensokyo, and maybe other fantastic realms similar to it, if there's any at all.
But all that is pure speculation; going by the only info we have for sure, there's nothing suggesting that she regularly judges souls from outside of Gensokyo (except for every 60 years). Otherwise, Akyuu would at least write "judges all the souls of Gensokyo and more" or something like that on her profile.
I'm just talking about a natural language reading of her description. It's certainly possible that she only governs Gensokyo, but we have no evidence one way or the other. I was simply objecting to your use of "judges all the souls from Gensokyo" as evidence that she only works in Gensokyo, because that simply makes no sense, grammatically or logically.
The meaning of "she judges all the souls from Gensokyo" is simply that no one else judges any souls from Gensokyo, not that the only souls she judges are from Gensokyo. You're making a pretty straightforward logical fallacy.
Also, "other fantastic realms" is exactly what I would naturally assume. Like, say, the Lunar Capital if anyone actually died there.
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While it's not what the grammar says per se, it's perfectly logical to assume that she judges only from Gensokyo based solely on the fact that she's never stated or even implied to judge souls from other places.
But whatever, I'm splitting hairs here. 'Tis not like what you're saying is nonsensical.
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Forgotten or disbelieved things just teleport there on their own. This is what happened to Miko: her tomb entered Gensokyo once historians started questioning whether Prince Shoutoku actually existed (which they are questioning, in real life). Presumably this is how the Barrier was designed. The Crested Ibis are an interesting problem though, because a recent FS chapter claimed that the Barrier has no effect on animals. Endangered animals have been mentioned as appearing in Gensokyo several times though, so maybe that's an exception?
So one way of getting into Genoskyo would be to have everyone forget about you? Like if you were to raise a child in seclusion and then kill yourself, the child would now be able to enter Gensokyo?
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So one way of getting into Genoskyo would be to have everyone forget about you? Like if you were to raise a child in seclusion and then kill yourself, the child would now be able to enter Gensokyo?
I think that only applies to ideologies and myths/legends. As for how people get in there, they have to pretty much be born in there or brought in ie: Sanae
That, or I remember reading (I don't remember where) that some people get into Gensokyo by pure chance. Most of these unfortunate souls get eaten by Youkai mere moments after they cross in. Those that find their way to the Hakurei shrine either get brought out by Reimu or stay in the human village to live out their lives if they choose to stay.
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Reisen's conversation with Eiki before the final fight kiiinda implies she has other jurisdictions besides Gensokyo. ....maybe. (also, maybe things were lost in the translation)
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I figured she means the Yama coming to Gensokyo/Higan from Hell.
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The meaning of "she judges all the souls from Gensokyo" is simply that no one else judges any souls from Gensokyo, not that the only souls she judges are from Gensokyo. You're making a pretty straightforward logical fallacy.
And it's another logical fallacy to say "we have no evidence that her jurisdiction isn't beyond Gensokyo, therefore we can include the possibility that her jurisdiction extends beyond the border".
We know what we know; beyond that it's pure speculation without evidence.
EDIT: To elaborate, I contend that Eiki enjoys origami as a part of her daily routine. I have no evidence to support this, but then again, there's no evidence specifically stating that she doesn't enjoy origami, so I might continue to contend this evidence-free point. But I'd be wrong - in the absence of available evidence either way, the burden of proof is on me to provide evidence for my claim in order for it to be true; the claim does not remain true or possible until others provide evidence that the claim is untrue.
Having said that, the idea of Eiki acting as a judge beyond Gensokyo is an interesting one, and I'd love to see it fleshed out more.
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And it's another logical fallacy to say "we have no evidence that her jurisdiction isn't beyond Gensokyo, therefore we can include the possibility that her jurisdiction extends beyond the border".
We know what we know; beyond that it's pure speculation without evidence.
But it isn't pure speculation without evidence. The contention lies in Eiki's title. Her title, Highest Judge of Paradise, would include Gensokyo, but makes no limitation to other areas that fall under the category of paradise, examples like Valhalla, Nirvana, Avalon, the Moon, etc.
That said, Reimu in Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing has a similar title, Wonderful Shrine Maiden of Paradise. Given the similarities of their titles and how Reimu's jurisdiction is only Gensokyo, it is possible Eiki's title doesn't encompass other places which fall under the definition of paradise.
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The fact that the title is that specific actually works against that theory. The absence of evidence beyond what is expressly stated puts the burden of proof on whoever is contending otherwise.
e: Yes, that Reimu title is a good point.
Also, I know we're talking about Gensokyo here, but titles like "Mayor of Cincinnati" or "Governor of Delaware" or "Prime Minister of Sweden" have a tendency to mean that this person is [Title] of [Place] alone.
Anyway, the idea that Eiki has a judging jurisdiction that goes beyond Gensokyo is pretty fun, and I'd love to see like, actual evidence to support it.
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I think that only applies to ideologies and myths/legends. As for how people get in there, they have to pretty much be born in there or brought in ie: Sanae
That, or I remember reading (I don't remember where) that some people get into Gensokyo by pure chance. Most of these unfortunate souls get eaten by Youkai mere moments after they cross in. Those that find their way to the Hakurei shrine either get brought out by Reimu or stay in the human village to live out their lives if they choose to stay.
However, we only say that for lack of examples where an ordinary person has been forgotten and appeared in Gensokyo. Right? I mean, if Prince Sho[I don't know his name]'s tomb appeared in Gensokyo just because it's existence was questioned it seems like a natural extension would be that a person would experience the same effect if questioned, or as an extreme, denied entirely (btw, that's appealing to a sense of reason, not a suggestion that inference actually yields truth).
I just noticed that, with the nature of touhou, it seems nothing in Gensokyo has completely disappeared from this world, has it. It does remain in legend. Lets say ZUN were to make a new youkai appear that had no historical documentation what so ever. He could just say that its a youkai that has been forgotten so thoroughly that there is no documentation. However, if he did that it would seem out of place. Is there a creature in Gensokyo with no connection to any legend in real life. Medicine, although presumably she was born in Gensokyo?
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Yuka doesn't have any specific real world legends to her, either. And Yukari most certainly came from the future, so no specific legends about her either.
I don't think everything that is forgotten or believed to be a myth goes to Gensokyo, and consider that there are still youkai and other monsters living in the outside (Mamizou, Hobgoblins, Chupacabras). I don't think anything too far away from Japan can just accidentaly end up in Gensokyo, for example; otherwise there'd be a huge amount of non-japanese monsters there.
A forgotten person is not someone who's existence is actively denied, or someone who's existence is dependent on human belief/fear to sustain its existance. It's just a lost person. Needless to say that millions of such people exist. Gensokyo would be crawnling with street urchins if that was the case.
Also, consider that Prince Shotoku was a person of great power and importance; she wasn't a random Joe. She was also in the middle of a process that required magic to be completed; perhaps both that and the lack of certainty in her existance is what sent her to Gensokyo.
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And it's another logical fallacy to say "we have no evidence that her jurisdiction isn't beyond Gensokyo, therefore we can include the possibility that her jurisdiction extends beyond the border".
no, it isn't a logical fallacy to consider possibilities that no evidence speaks against. you can call it speculation (and it is, but I wouldn't discount it for that), but you can't call it illogical. a Gensokyo with an origami-enjoying, outside-world-soul-judging Eiki is just as possible as one with a Gensokyo purist Eiki who hates the living guts out of origami.
remember, including a possibility isn't the same as declaring it as fact.
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A completely forgotten youkai is a dead youkai, isn't it? That's part of the whole point of youkai doing things like the system of attacking humans and humans exterimating youkai, as well as putting themselves into books in FS so they'll never be completely forgotten.
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remember, including a possibility isn't the same as declaring it as fact.
I totally recognize that distinction; I'm saying that "there is nothing saying this isn't true" is not the same thing as "evidence for it being true". Not all speculations are created equal.
Although I am totally fine with Eiki playing origami.
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A completely forgotten youkai is a dead youkai, isn't it? That's part of the whole point of youkai doing things like the system of attacking humans and humans exterimating youkai, as well as putting themselves into books in FS so they'll never be completely forgotten.
I think the process is a little more nebulous than that... I mean, how can humanity completely forget a youkai or youkai type? Even if all records of it are destroyed, unless the creature was also already physically destroyed, it still should be able to go around showing itself, no? Even because, knowledge of it's existance should still exist in the minds of the people that tried to eliminate proofs of it existance in the first place.
Kyouko's entry says that since people began to understand echoes as just sound being reflected, lots of yamabikos started feeling that they were losing their purpose and were, therefore, becoming extinct; Kyouko entered the Myouren temple so that she could have a new purpose for her existance.
So, maybe belief/fear is what empowers the youkai, but once that is removed, they become just husks of their former self; not yet dead, but without any purpose, and since youkai, unlike humans, have already a set purpose in life, they either need to find another one, or languish and, eventually, die.
edit: ...maybe I should've placed this in the theory thread. ugh.
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Yuka doesn't have any specific real world legends to her, either. And Yukari most certainly came from the future, so no specific legends about her either.
I don't think everything that is forgotten or believed to be a myth goes to Gensokyo, and consider that there are still youkai and other monsters living in the outside (Mamizou, Hobgoblins, Chupacabras). I don't think anything too far away from Japan can just accidentaly end up in Gensokyo, for example; otherwise there'd be a huge amount of non-japanese monsters there.
A forgotten person is not someone who's existence is actively denied, or someone who's existence is dependent on human belief/fear to sustain its existance. It's just a lost person. Needless to say that millions of such people exist. Gensokyo would be crawnling with street urchins if that was the case.
Also, consider that Prince Shotoku was a person of great power and importance; she wasn't a random Joe. She was also in the middle of a process that required magic to be completed; perhaps both that and the lack of certainty in her existance is what sent her to Gensokyo.
Ugh, yeah, Yuuka's back story is a mess what with PC-98. Ok. As for Yukari... *shiver* there's already enough mystery surrounding her.
Those other monsters can only persist outside of Gensokyo because there is still belief in them. As for non-japanese monsters, sure, maybe it's a vicinity thing.
There is a good reason why Gensokyo isn't filled with street urchins though. People know street urchins exist, that's not a debated idea, so just being a street urchin isn't enough. I'm talking more along the lines of that family that was lost in Siberia (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/For-40-Years-This-Russian-Family-Was-Cut-Off-From-Human-Contact-Unaware-of-World-War-II-188843001.html). The existence of this family is much easier to dispute then Street Urchins because families don't generally survive like they did.
It is true that Prince Shotoku was dead (dead enough?) when she got moved but it wasn't just her, it was also her Mausoleum. Was that thing also magic?
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Ugh, yeah, Yuuka's back story is a mess what with PC-98. Ok.
Hell, Yuuka doesn't even have a backstory. She just is.
Maybe she's so strong she willed herself into existence :V
Those other monsters can only persist outside of Gensokyo because there is still belief in them.
But that's true regarding all kinds of monsters. There are 7 billion humans in the world; it's safe to say that there's still people workshipping the Egyptian gods with full fervor. The whole process on how monsters cease or begin to exist is really, really vague; how many humans need to believe in something before it begins to exist (I'd say one is enough, considering that Reimu creates a god inside a tree just by herself, but...)? How much can a story about a monster diverge before it spawns a new monster, or force that monster to mutate? How can people even forget that the thing exists, or begin to deny its existance, when it's still around causing trouble? And so on. Maybe it's best to not think too hard about it.
There is a good reason why Gensokyo isn't filled with street urchins though. People know street urchins exist, that's not a debated idea, so just being a street urchin isn't enough. I'm talking more along the lines of that family that was lost in Siberia (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/For-40-Years-This-Russian-Family-Was-Cut-Off-From-Human-Contact-Unaware-of-World-War-II-188843001.html). The existence of this family is much easier to dispute then Street Urchins because families don't generally survive like they did.
It is true that Prince Shotoku was dead (dead enough?) when she got moved but it wasn't just her, it was also her Mausoleum. Was that thing also magic?
Ah, I see.
Hmm... maybe it's because there's nothing magical or mystical associated with these people, their existance or their survival. Above all, Gensokyo is a refuge to things that depend on belief; humans in that universe don't need it to actually mantain a solid existance, as far as we know.
As for Miko's mausoleum, well, according to her official profile, it had it's seals continually replaced by buddhist monks ever since she began the process. Since the seals were there to stop her ressurection in the first place, maybe they stopped her from being ripped from there just by herself, and so forced the whole place to be transportated.
On a side note, I'd love to see the faces of the current generation of monks in charge of renovating the seals on Miko's mausoleum when they realized it had suddenly disappeared.
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So, I have a question about Imperishable Night.
I know this game - or rather, the English patch - is a bit infamous for some of its loltastic translations (e.g., "Let's get this youkai party started!", "Bitch, move out of the way" etc.). But while these translations take liberties while retaining a meaning sorta close to the Japanese, are there any English translations in Imperishable Night that are just straight-up wrong? How about in the other games?
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QUick question: I read that Kasen has some sort of magical drinking thing like Suika's gourd or Yuugi's sake plate What is it and what does it do?
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QUick question: I read that Kasen has some sort of magical drinking thing like Suika's gourd or Yuugi's sake plate What is it and what does it do?
It's featured in WaHH Chapter 16, called "Ibaraki Box of a Hundred Medicine" (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/165805/touhou-ibarakasen-wild-and-horned-hermit_v4_ch16_by_no-group/14). Any sake that's drunk from it gains miraculous healing capabilities, and if you're already healthy to begin with, you gain super strengh for a while instead. It has a catch, though...After drinking it, your personality becomes like an oni (that is, loudmouthed, boisterous, rude, and stuff), and if it actually heals you, you become an oni.
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So, I have a question about Imperishable Night.
I know this game - or rather, the English patch - is a bit infamous for some of its loltastic translations (e.g., "Let's get this youkai party started!", "Bitch, move out of the way" etc.). But while these translations take liberties while retaining a meaning sorta close to the Japanese, are there any English translations in Imperishable Night that are just straight-up wrong? How about in the other games?
I feel like your best bet for keeping up with stuff like this is to just use the Wiki translation.
It's featured in WaHH Chapter 16, called "Ibaraki Box of a Hundred Medicine" (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/165805/touhou-ibarakasen-wild-and-horned-hermit_v4_ch16_by_no-group/14). Any sake that's drunk from it gains miraculous healing capabilities, and if you're already healthy to begin with, you gain super strengh for a while instead. It has a catch, though...After drinking it, your personality becomes like an oni (that is, loudmouthed, boisterous, rude, and stuff), and if it actually heals you, you become an oni.
I'll add that it can't cure Kasen's arm, so since it can't actually heal her, she doesn't become an oni. Don't the personality changes only take effect if you are already healthy as well, explaining why Kasen doesn't gain the Oni personality.
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I feel like your best bet for keeping up with stuff like this is to just use the Wiki translation.
Eh? I'm asking Japanese speakers if there are any translations already in English patches which are just wrong. As a curiosity, to know. Rather ask the folks here who do read Japanese than do a line-by-line comparison between each translated game and their respective wiki pages.
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I'll add that it can't cure Kasen's arm, so since it can't actually heal her, she doesn't become an oni. Don't the personality changes only take effect if you are already healthy as well, explaining why Kasen doesn't gain the Oni personality.
Also to note that where the box cannot heal her arm, she still drinks from it or else her arm will completely rot away.
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Eh? I'm asking Japanese speakers if there are any translations already in English patches which are just wrong. As a curiosity, to know. Rather ask the folks here who do read Japanese than do a line-by-line comparison between each translated game and their respective wiki pages.
I should have said, "keep up with the wiki translation". It's just that, if someone comes on here right now, and tells you that a passage is wrong, he'll be contending with the generally accepted source of information, created by not just one, but a group of people. In fact, if this person were serious about his translation he'd skip you and go straight to the wiki so the idea gets more exposure. Plus, IN is 9 years old, the chances of a change in translation seem a bit steep. You'll want to verify such information with sources you already trust, and if you're like many other non-japanese speakers, that might be the wiki.
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I think you're overcomplicating the question maybe just a little bit.
I am just asking for examples of bad translations in the English patch of Imperishable Night or other games. Just examples, for fun, out of curiosity.
That's it. If you can't answer the question, that's totally cool.
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I'll add that it can't cure Kasen's arm, so since it can't actually heal her, she doesn't become an oni. Don't the personality changes only take effect if you are already healthy as well, explaining why Kasen doesn't gain the Oni personality.
Also to note that where the box cannot heal her arm, she still drinks from it or else her arm will completely rot away.
Both of these were just her excuses for not behaving like an oni, I wouldn't take her claims here as serious. Her arm might have something to do with her condition and masquerading, but considering she's basically confirmed to be an oni I would think that she doesn't become an oni simply because she already is one. She just had to think of something on the spot to convince Sanae.
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Could anyone identify the artist/album for these two songs? I got them from a Vs. Saxton Hale server in Team Fortress 2 where all of the bosses are Touhou characters, and these are the songs played in-game--they show up in my game folder with no MP3 tags or anything.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92386785/eirin2.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92386785/koishi.mp3
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Both of these were just her excuses for not behaving like an oni, I wouldn't take her claims here as serious. Her arm might have something to do with her condition and masquerading, but considering she's basically confirmed to be an oni I would think that she doesn't become an oni simply because she already is one. She just had to think of something on the spot to convince Sanae.
Thinking Kasen is an oni is one thing, but automatically assuming the things she says are false, is another. We have no reason to think she's lieing about these things. Plus, she might have had some actual reason for bringing that box in the first place.
Also she might be an oni but she doesn't have the same temperament and I don't see why the box can't make Oni more Oni-like.
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I wasn't saying that they were false, just that they were excuses and shouldn't be taken too seriously because of it.
But actually, upon rereading the chapter, I see that I mistook Sanae for Kasen. It's actually more interesting now, because if drinking from the box will turn you into an oni upon healing you, it's implied that her arm definitely has something to do with her condition. If I were to speculate, I'd say that Kasen has suppressed her oni self in some manner. If she stops drinking from her box of medicines, then the remainder of her oni self, embodied in her arm, will disappear. In that vein, this could be why she doesn't act very oni-like and her presumed horns are small enough to be hidden; she has turned herself into not-an-oni for her plans, but continues to keep her oni self hidden.
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Yuka doesn't have any specific real world legends to her, either. And Yukari most certainly came from the future, so no specific legends about her either.
I can't say about Yuuka, but Yukari is a Sukima (Gap Youkai), and there are legends about them. Are there any legends about flower youkai? I can only think of one off the top of my head, but that's from Chinese myth. And Yuuka's character definitely does not match that myth.
I don't think anything too far away from Japan can just accidentaly end up in Gensokyo, for example; otherwise there'd be a huge amount of non-japanese monsters there.
The Scarlet Devil Mansion crew most likely came in from Europe somewhere. But I don't think they accidentally ended up in Gensokyo though. They most likely did what the Moriya crew did and warped in.
A completely forgotten youkai is a dead youkai, isn't it? That's part of the whole point of youkai doing things like the system of attacking humans and humans exterimating youkai, as well as putting themselves into books in FS so they'll never be completely forgotten.
Yes, that is usually the case, but not always the case. Gensokyo's youkai seems to have changed beyond they are supposed to be.
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Maribel's life changed the day she was crushed under a bookshelf.
Perfect Memento states that Yuuka's main fighting ability has little to do with her powers. I wonder if this applies to her character as well, since you'd think a FLOWER youkai would be one of the more peaceful types. So if one is to find the source of Yuuka's myth (assuming it exists), it should probably ignore Yuuka's rather... antagonistic personality and just search for a youkai that just does simple things like revive wilted flowers or turn the direction flowers are facing (and the other abilities Akyuu lists).
She's also described as a force of nature like fairies, except far more dangerous. Hmm.
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Speaking of Yukari, here's my friend's newest research: in Mouryou no Hako (a supernatural mystery novel by Kyogoku Natsuhiko, also adapted into an anime), the youkai Mouryou is given a thorough examination.
The word 罔両/罔良 Mouryou (Wangliang in Mandarin), started as a word meaning "the fuzzy region around a shadow" (or as ancient people saw it, "the shadow of shadow"), eventually became 魑魅魍魉 Chimimouryou (Chimeiwangliang in Mandarin), a generalized term for all evil spirits lurking in nature, and can be used as a metaphor for "all manners of bad people". According to the novel (and this is the part that might be invented by the author), because it's such a generalized concept, Mouryou is an extremely powerful and seductive youkai, not unlike a fox, "a youkai who lives on the boundary; beyond the boundary lies fantasy (gensou)".
And Yukari has 3 spell cards named 罔両, followed by a spell card named 魍魎...
It's not exactly a new theory, since someone already proposed it on the MotoNeta wiki, but not enough people noticed. ZUN listed Kyogoku among his favorite writers in an early interview, and the influence of Kyogoku on Touhou is in fact quite apparent, so this is not a stretch at all.
I'd say Yukari is this, plus the legend of gap woman, the personality of fox (her temperament in SWR is sunshower, aka "fox wedding"), the concept of spiriting away, and (this is my speculation) the social reality of people losing everything and being forgotten in post-bubble Japan.
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I am just asking for examples of bad translations in the English patch of Imperishable Night or other games. Just examples, for fun, out of curiosity.
I still remember the time I laughed when I realized that the translations for Aya's final spellcard in th10 wasn't quite right.
The 塞 in 塞符 actually refers to 岐の神, which is the gods of crossroads, and is related to Sarutahiko. (I say related, but it's more like being an equivalent)
The spellcard names themselves are related to Sarutahiko.
Someone will have to have a profound knowledge of Japanese myth to even catch this reference.
There even might not be a good enough translation for 塞, but what I can say is 'Cork' is too distant to be a translation for 塞, and 塞 has absolutely no relation to cork oaks.
The reason I laughed was not because of the translation itself, but because of the comments from the wiki editors.
It is now fixed in the wiki, but Nue's first card in th12 was translated to "Peaceful Dark Clouds", because the Kanji for Heian(平安) means 'Peaceful'
In th07, 仙 was translated to 'Wizard', which isn't actually wrong. It is now translated to 'Hermit', because ZUN decided to use the word in 東方茨歌仙.
One example of a translation that isn't related to English Patches, completely wrong, but still quite insightful.
One of the music in ZUN's Strange Works, 夢幻回廊, was translated to 'Infinite Corridor', which actually should be translated to 'Fantasy Corridor' or 'Illusion Corridor' or something like that.
The 'insightful' part is that it is supposed to be a pun, 無限(Infinite) and 夢幻(Fantasy) having the same pronunciation in Japanese. Wouldn't have noticed it if the translation wasn't wrong.
I, personally, think that one of the most biggest things lost in English patches is that it can't really differentiate between Kanji and Katakana.
Nobody would say that ストレートとカーブの夢郷 and 直と曲の夢郷 really conveys the same thing. (Or maybe someone will, I don't know)
I think that the Music and spellcards sort of loses the 'ZUNness' in their names.
Many other things are lost in translation, but anyone knows what they are.
Ignoring all the small details, the English patches are quite well done, and there really isn't any completely wrong translations.
Translating between completely different languages is never a easy task, especially if it makes a bunch of references to folklore and Chinese idioms and the like.
I would say that the things lost in translation is quite a small price to pay compared to what someone will have to go through to understand most of the game.
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Thanks, Sagus, that was really interesting.
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I can't say about Yuuka, but Yukari is a Sukima (Gap Youkai)
Is there any place with info about this youkai? The only thing I find when I search about it is info about a jazz style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukima_Switch) or Yukari herself.
She's also described as a force of nature like fairies, except far more dangerous. Hmm.
She's the anthropomorphic personification of nature's brutality :getdown:
Thanks, Sagus, that was really interesting.
Hah, I think you mean "Sungho" :P
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Mistranslations? I'm not very familiar with English patches. Yes, "Cork Sign" is hilarious.
東方妖恋談 "Oriental Mystical Love Consultation", or whatever it is, is another memorable mistranslation. The 談 in this name means "tale", rather than "consult". I'd translate it as "Oriental Youkai Love Story". (see also: 怪奇談 "Strange Tales" and Touhou 5's main title: 東方怪綺談 "Strange and Splendid Tales of the East")
Oh, when we are talking about that, I'd translate most instances of a single 妖 you/ayakashi character as "youkai", since more often than not, it is used to refer to youkai. There might be places where it can be translated as something like "sorcery". The kanji 妖 should never, ever be translated as "mystical"; "charming", "bewitching", maybe, depending on context.
仙 is still a source of headache. Many examples of its usage in Touhou, such as 仙力, is just too weird if translated as "hermit" - "hermit power", what is that? The character 仙, in the East Asian context, automatically conjures the idea of a powerful mystic, and all the good magic that comes with it; "hermit" in English doesn't do that.
EDIT: Not a mistranslation, but for the most recent example of katakana being meaningful, in HM, all of Miko's skills and story mode spell cards are named using one English word, conveying a sense of chuunibyou teenager coming up with gratuitous English names. "INFLUENCE of the East!" "DESIRE-seeking Souls!"
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Hah, I think you mean "Sungho" :P
Derp. Pardon my fairy moment.
EDIT: Not a mistranslation, but for the most recent example of katakana being meaningful, in HM, all of Miko's skills and story mode spell cards are named using one English word, conveying a sense of chuunibyou teenager coming up with gratuitous English names. "INFLUENCE of the East!" "DESIRE-seeking Souls!"
Oh man that is hilarious. Thanks!
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EDIT: Not a mistranslation, but for the most recent example of katakana being meaningful, in HM, all of Miko's skills and story mode spell cards are named using one English word, conveying a sense of chuunibyou teenager coming up with gratuitous English names. "INFLUENCE of the East!" "DESIRE-seeking Souls!"
I figure that could be translated by putting exclamation marks in the names. Possibly multiple exclamation marks :V
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I think all-caps and exclamation-marks (i.e. exactly as cuc put it) does the job. :3
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I'd rather put in more deliberately awful/DEEP-sounding padding words, but the words she picked don't really afford that well.
仙 is still a source of headache. Many examples of its usage in Touhou, such as 仙力, is just too weird if translated as "hermit" - "hermit power", what is that? The character 仙, in the East Asian context, automatically conjures the idea of a powerful mystic, and all the good magic that comes with it; "hermit" in English doesn't do that.
IMMORTAL MAGICAL TAOIST WIZARD POWERRRRR
Personally I prefer "sage" since it evokes the sense of magic, a long life/age, and diligent training, which are all important parts of 仙人.
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"Transcendent" (used as a noun) could work for a translation of 仙人. It's what Wikipedia uses at least.
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Not gonna participate in translation since I'm a noob in Japanese, but, the image of Miko being a chuunibyou is hilarious XD
Regarding Yuuka, I think when she was created ZUN didn't really know what direction TOuhou is going. At that time, Yuuka wasn't even a flower youkai. She's just a 'youkai'. A creepy genocidal youkai. It wasn't until PoFV that she became the 'Flower Master of the Four Seasons'.
Same with Rumia and Meiling, who don't have any specific base.
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Yuuka's options in MS are two flowers. But other than that, from LLS all the way to Kioh-gyoku, there isn't any more flower motif to her.
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Rumia
Rumia was always a Youkai of darkness, now?
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While Yuuka does have a flower motif, she's never stated to actually be a flower youkai anywhere in canon (profiles, PMiSS, etc).
Although, of course, it's not a farfetched assumption to make.
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Rumia was always a Youkai of darkness, now?
I meant that Rumia is just a generic youkai that doesn't belong in any specific 'species'. Like Kogasa is a karakasa and Mamizou is a tanuki. Rumia is just a youkai.
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While Yuuka does have a flower motif, she's never stated to actually be a flower youkai anywhere in canon (profiles, PMiSS, etc).
Her title is Flower Master of the Four Seasons and she is a youkai. So, while not a certainty, this is one of the better assumptions you can make in Touhou lore.
Personally I prefer "sage" since it evokes the sense of magic, a long life/age, and diligent training, which are all important parts of 仙人.
If either Sage or Transcendent is used to translate "sennin", it would be more helpful than Hermit. Hermit doesn't have any mystical connotations and implications of being a special title.
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Yuuka stuff
Yuuka's Perfect Memento profile states that her flower power is more of an extra compared to her sheer magical and physical might. Yuuka has also exhibited other, very un-flowery abilities, such as invisibility in one of LLS's endings, and Mugenkan's connection to both the Dream World and it's location in the Lake of Blood seem to suggest a degree of power over dreams and blood too (that lake had to come from somewhere, and something has to prevent it from coagulating). The dimensions of Mugenkan get thoroughly messed up during the final battle in LLS too. Is it dimensional magic, dream magic, or illusion magic? Then there's Yuuka's clone technique, light orb form and the mysterious 'ultimate magic'. All of this could indicate that Yuuka's flower abilities aren't her true power and just a 'hobby ability' she manifested. Her sheer repertoire of skills makes Yuuka look a lot like a magician. Maybe she's a particularly ancient youkai magician?
Of course, all of these skills are from PC-98, before she got defined as a flower-loving youkai, but it could be something to muse on.
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IIRC, she's not very experienced with magic, which is why her endings in MS involve her stalking Marisa and Alice. There's probably a distinction between her innate magic abilities and Marisa and Alice's type of learned magic though. In any case I wouldn't call her a magician.
@cuc: She did use flowers in Kioh-gyoku. As far as I know, LLS was the only place where she didn't use them (though maybe you could say her final attack looks like a flower). Did she have any other appearances between LLS and PoFV?
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IIRC, she's not very experienced with magic, which is why her endings in MS involve her stalking Marisa and Alice. There's probably a distinction between her innate magic abilities and Marisa and Alice's type of learned magic though. In any case I wouldn't call her a magician.
@cuc: She did use flowers in Kioh-gyoku. As far as I know, LLS was the only place where she didn't use them (though maybe you could say her final attack looks like a flower). Did she have any other appearances between LLS and PoFV?
Huh, interesting. Guess she has a lot of natural abilities then, or just works things out through brute, unrefined magical power.
The pinwheels Yuuka uses in some of her LLS attacks could be interpreted as flowers too.
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Her title is Flower Master of the Four Seasons and she is a youkai. So, while not a certainty, this is one of the better assumptions you can make in Touhou lore.
Her title can also be said to be "Flower Master" simply because her power is making flowers bloom. It doesn't have to have anything to do with her youkai type.
PMiSS's "Youkai" entry says that there are many youkai that are unique (as in, do not belong to a species, like tengu or kappa), that many Gensokyo youkai are like that, and that they are simply referred to as "youkai" (she even compares this classification to the "others" section on a graph). After all, assigning a "youkai type" to them would be pretty meaningless, as it would imply that they're a part of a species when they are, in fact, entirely unique.
But again, if you want to call her a "flower youkai", there isn't anything inherently wrong with it. It just doesn't mean much when she's the only of her "kind" around,
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Recently ZUN hasn't introduced any kind of those unique youkai, though. So far we've only seen Rumia, Meiling, Yukari, and Yuuka, all introduced in the early Windows era (even earlier in Yuuka's case). Wonder if DDC will introduce any new 'unique' youkai. (Letty, Wriggle, Mystia, and Medicine don't count since we know what kind of youkai they are)
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Her title can also be said to be "Flower Master" simply because her power is making flowers bloom. It doesn't have to have anything to do with her youkai type.
But that is what it means. If her power is to make flowers bloom, then she is a flower youkai.
And yes, she is probably the only flower youkai around, so there is no comparison. That is unless Zun decides to create another youkai with flower motif. Then, we'll have 2 flower youkais.
PMiSS's "Youkai" entry says that there are many youkai that are unique (as in, do not belong to a species, like tengu or kappa)
Tengu and Kappa are more specific youkai types with known names.
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But that is what it means. If her power is to make flowers bloom, then she is a flower youkai.
Not at all. Yuyuko can bring death, even when she was alive, and she wasn't/isn't a "death youkai". Flandre and Remilia have widely different powers, yet are the same kind of monster.
A character's ability does not necessarily correlate to their species, or indicates it. Remember that Akyuu describes Yuuka's abilit as being a "bonus". It's just this curious thing she can do.
Tengu and Kappa are more specific youkai types with known names.
...yes? That's exactly what I meant. Youkai can belong to a specific species, which are still classified as youkai, or not really belong to any pre-defined type, in which case they are just called "youkai" because there is no need to create a specific word for them, because they are unique.
Yuuka is not called a "flower youkai" anywhere. Neither in the games nor in any anxiliary material. I mean, come on, if there was such a thing as "flower youkai", there'd be an entry on PMiSS about it. Or at least something in Yuuka's article mentioning that she's one of them, like how Letty being a yuki-onna is mentioned in her own article.
And I'm still waiting on info about that "sukima youkai" that you claimed that Yukari was. Anything man, an entry from a mythology book, a picture, a wikipedia page even, anything. I just can't find anything related to it.
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We've been over this. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13761.msg911463.html#msg911463)
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Not at all. Yuyuko can bring death, even when she was alive, and she wasn't/isn't a "death youkai". Flandre and Remilia have widely different powers, yet are the same kind of monster.
Yuyuko is not a youkai, so whatever her powers are, it doesn't matter. Just like Sakuya is not a "time youkai", because Sakuya is not a youkai. That said, if Yuyuko and Sakuya are youkais, they would be classified as death youkai and time youkai respectively.
The thing with Vampires, Tengu and Oni is that they are specific races of the really big youkai umbrella.
Yuuka is not called a "flower youkai" anywhere. Neither in the games nor in any anxiliary material. I mean, come on, if there was such a thing as "flower youkai", there'd be an entry on PMiSS about it. Or at least something in Yuuka's article mentioning that she's one of them, like how Letty being a yuki-onna is mentioned in her own article.
A youkai is a description of what they are, as much as what they are. If Yuuka controls flowers, she is a flower youkai. If Letty controls ice, she's an ice youkai. That said, she is also a yuki-onna, which is a known named youkai. The term "Sukima" means gap, and since Yukari controls boundaries, she is a gap youkai or boundary youkai.
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And I'm still waiting on info about that "sukima youkai" that you claimed that Yukari was. Anything man, an entry from a mythology book, a picture, a wikipedia page even, anything. I just can't find anything related to it.
Refer to this link and see if it sort of helps. It is just really terror stories about things, Sukima being one of these legends. http://www.weirdwildrealm.com/f-dark-tales-japan.html. If I can recall something I've seen about it, I'll try to mention it.
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Dude. Those labels are entirely meaningless.
Really, Drake's old post resolves this perfectly, so I'll just put it here again. Emphasis mine.
The thing is that everything you've been saying is more or less correct until you take an extra step and assert youkai must have a type of which it is described by, outside of "youkai". As if said "type" is actually a label of race or species. In some cases it may be, but it is often not the case; the label stems from the actual identification of species, not the other way around. A youkai that actually is a defined species such as a vampire, nekomata, phantom, kappa, oni; these are all subspecies. What you are doing is taking arbitrary labels based on a character's traits and attempting to turn it into an equivalent of a subspecies, when this is patently not the case. I was saying Alice could be called a "dollmaker youkai" because she is a dollmaker and she is a youkai; not because "dollmaker youkai" is some sort of actual identifier that goes above "youkai", and so forth. If I have to say it again, a youkai by nature can be a description of a phenomenon or tradition or tale, but is not necessarily, and in many cases is not. You can call them *label* youkai, but you cannot assert that the label extends beyond simply being a label.
Refer to this link and see if it sort of helps. It is just really terror stories about things, Sukima being one of these legends. http://www.weirdwildrealm.com/f-dark-tales-japan.html. If I can recall something I've seen about it, I'll try to mention it.
Thanks for the link! Although it seems that this "sukima" monster is a creation for the movie itself and not based on pre-existing folklore. It's a cool monster, anyway.
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Japanese wikipedia entry for "sukima onna" gap woman:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9A%99%E9%96%93%E5%A5%B3
Apparently it is an urban legend that may have originated in Edo era (18-19th century).
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Where in canon are the lines that make Yuyuko seem like a "hungry ghost"? I didn't get that impression at all from PCB. Is it just from her dialogue in Imperishable Night when she is talking about eating sparrows?
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Her IN lines were just the beginning. She finished a bowl of dumplings like they were nothing in SSIB; in Soku's vs. mode dialogue, Sakuya wonders what would happen if she die of hunger; most recently, Youmu's and her animation loop in HM consist of Youmu feeding her riceballs.
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needless to say that i agree with myself, thank you other people
I would like to point out that a few posts down from that I did something silly:
Magicians are youkai, and there are two types: the first type is someone who's born a magician, such as Patchouli.
[...]
Patchouli has no information on whether or not she used to be a human, or if she was somehow born a magician, so she's kind of out of the question.
:doop:
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Where in canon are the lines that make Yuyuko seem like a "hungry ghost"? I didn't get that impression at all from PCB. Is it just from her dialogue in Imperishable Night when she is talking about eating sparrows?
Her IN lines were just the beginning. She finished a bowl of dumplings like they were nothing in SSIB; in Soku's vs. mode dialogue, Sakuya wonders what would happen if she die of hunger; most recently, Youmu's and her animation loop in HM consist of Youmu feeding her riceballs.
That doesn't make her a hungry ghost, though...that just means she's a ghost that likes to eat. Hungry ghosts are creatures cursed to suffer from hunger due to their bad karma in their previous life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaki), which is so unlike Yuyuko.
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That doesn't make her a hungry ghost, though...that just means she's a ghost that likes to eat. Hungry ghosts are creatures cursed to suffer from hunger due to their bad karma in their previous life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaki), which is so unlike Yuyuko.
All that "hungry ghost" talk is just fandom taking things cuc named too far like they usually do. In canon it's just a running joke.
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Hey, this just crossed my mind, but isn't Shou kind of a living proof that a youkai need not to conform to its original purpose? Shou was a product of people's fear of this animal called a tiger, which they have never seen before. But Byakuren turned her into an avatar of Bishamonten instead. If she hadn't met Byakuren, Shou would've disappeared a long time ago, which isn't the case as she survived in (possibly, I'm not too sure) the Outside World for 1000 years.
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Parsee was just a "bridge princess" at first, and got her ability to manipulate jealousy with time. That's one example of that happening outside Myouren Temple group, so it's certainly possible.
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...But Parsee has nothing to do with it? She's still a hashihime, and hashihime is by nature a jealous youkai, which she still is. She just gained an ability, not changed her nature.
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Japanese wikipedia entry for "sukima onna" gap woman:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9A%99%E9%96%93%E5%A5%B3
Apparently it is an urban legend that may have originated in Edo era (18-19th century).
Even with google translate, the story's pretty creepy. Thanks for the link, cuc!
Hey, this just crossed my mind, but isn't Shou kind of a living proof that a youkai need not to conform to its original purpose? Shou was a product of people's fear of this animal called a tiger, which they have never seen before. But Byakuren turned her into an avatar of Bishamonten instead. If she hadn't met Byakuren, Shou would've disappeared a long time ago, which isn't the case as she survived in (possibly, I'm not too sure) the Outside World for 1000 years.
Yeah, it seems to me that Shou (and Nazrin?) was/were in the outside world before UFO, considering that there wasn't any temple in Gensokyo other than the Hakurei Shrine for a long time (as far as we know). Shou also changed to the point where she can't even turn into her originalo beast form, according to SoPM.
Kyouko's profile in SoPM also indicates that youkai that lost their original purpose can go find a new one: "Thinking she had no other purpose in this world, she entered the priesthood". She seems to be fine now. Even started a rock band, so she's certainly not languishing.
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Going to point out that there's a difference between a youkai losing its purpose and a youkai being forgotten and vanishing. A youkai that loses its purpose, and doesn't ever find a new purpose, ends up doing nothing. Because it does nothing, people forget about it, and in turn they disappear from existence. In reality, if a "youkai" stops doing what a "youkai" does (i.e. losing its purpose), then that "youkai" doesn't exist. But in Gensokyo they clearly have a physical body and all, so a youkai losing its purpose in itself is just a heavy hit to its being.
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I am Chinese
My English is not good
But seeing some mistakes
Japanese is very close with the Chinese
UFO Stage 6 Theme - Fires of Hokkai
Hokkai = Dharmadhatu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmadhatu
MOF Stage 1 Theme - Because Princess Inada Is Scolding Me
稻田=Inada=Paddy
Minoriko Aki is Paddy Princess
MOF Stage 4 Title - The Waterfall of Nine Heavens
Nine Heavens=九天=Another means by The Art of War
PCB Stage 1 Theme - Paradise ~ Deep Mountain
無何有=seeming to be and not to be
no "Paradise"
無何有の郷= from Zhuangzi - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease
http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/enjoyment-in-untroubled-ease
何不樹之於無何有之鄉=why do you not plant it in a tract where there is nothing else
Implied meaning is "dreamlike land;illusory land;unreal land"
Letty Whiterock
http://www.toho-motoneta.net/index.php?%A5%EC%A5%C6%A5%A3%A1%A6%A5%DB%A5%EF%A5%A4%A5%C8%A5%ED%A5%C3%A5%AF
From Huainanzi
青女=Blue lady=frost and snow Goddess of Chinese legend
SA Stage 1 Title - The Wind Blowing From the Thankless Land
忘恩=not benediction;Not blessed
no "Thankless"
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In th07, 仙 was translated to 'Wizard', which isn't actually wrong. It is now translated to 'Hermit', because ZUN decided to use the word in 東方茨歌仙.
Oh, is that why we use "hermit"? I was actually kind of wondering. For the record, I think that's a terrible reason. Should we start calling Reimu a "shaman" now that ZUN calls her that in FS? Although honestly "shaman" is a better translation of miko than "hermit" is of sennin. I also noticed a similar pattern where we overuse the word "administer" or "administrator" because of Miko's theme song.
Given that none of these words are explicitly translations, their juxtaposition to the Japanese words doesn't strike me as something we should care about in the slightest. I mean, "Wild and Horned Hermit" is not and never has been a translation of 茨歌仙, so why do we need to respect it as the "official" translation of 仙?
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I think it's less a translation/juxtaposition as it is the title very directly referencing Kasen. At least, that's what is assumed.
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What exactly about Reimu's Persuasion Needles makes them so effective?
I mean, sure, throwing FREAKING NEEDLES at someone is generally going to ruin their day, but some of the people you fight in the Touhou games probably would shrug off an ordinary, mundane needle.
Or two of them.
Or twenty of them. To the face.
So I imagine there's something I'm missing.
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The girl used her in Yang Orb as a weapon as it can harm youkais by just touching them. I am pretty sure her needles are blessed with holy energy to allow them to harm others. That, or she has some mad acupuncture skillz.
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>Needles
Did I talk about it somewhere? Needles are indeed not a common weapon in Japanese pop culture, which is why even the Japanese find it weird. They are however, a common projectile weapon in Chinese martial arts fiction, obviously inspired by acupuncture, so without evidence to the contrary, my guess is ZUN got this idea from something Chinese martial arts-related.
Yukari's weapons in IN and SA are needles too. The SA one's name is a pun on a Chinese idiom that's based on something from acupuncture.
Some unorganized rambling on 仙人:
When I was young, I was used to seeing it translated as "immortal". The Chinese scholar Qian Zhongshu, when trying to describe the quality of 仙 in Chinese poetry, used the word "aeromantic". "Transcendant" feels overblown to me.
Generally there are the heavenly 天仙 who have ascended to heaven, and the earthly 地仙 who live in mountains. "Hermit" is a really imappropriate word for the former, but since the former roughly correspond to celestials in Touhou (which are a synthesis of Taoist/Chinese sennin and gods, and the Hindu/Buddhist devas), while the latter correspond to sennin in Touhou, it's actually a somewhat fitting translation. Except when things like "hermit power" show up.
For Hindu/Buddhist concepts, 仙 was also used to translate "rishi", extremely powerful sages of Indian myths.
The problem with "sage" is that traditionally, "sage" has been used to translate 聖人 in all the Chinese classics. 聖人 in this context, are not "saints" in the Christian sense, but rather the ideal and perfect leaders of mankind. When people like Confucius and Lao Tzu wrote about 聖人, they were referring to rulers of an ideal pre-lapsarian world; later, people would worship Confucius himself and very few other deified heroes as 聖人, the persons of the greatest virtues. And that's what Miko's "saint" title actually refers to - a one-in-a-thousand-year great ruler of mankind.
"Administrator" is just a typical "corresponding word ZUN found by looking up a dictionary". Clearly the word he meant was the one from Miko's HM ability, 為政者 "statesman".
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>Needles
Did I talk about it somewhere? Needles are indeed not a common weapon in Japanese pop culture, which is why even the Japanese find it weird. They are however, a common projectile weapon in Chinese martial arts fiction, obviously inspired by acupuncture, so without evidence to the contrary, my guess is ZUN got this idea from something Chinese martial arts-related.
Yukari's weapons in IN and SA are needles too. The SA one's name is a pun on a Chinese idiom that's based on something from acupuncture.
Mind you, Reimu has always been a "Shinto shrine maiden that used Taoism for attacks", what with Ying-Yang orbs, so if you look at needles as a way of manipulating qi through acupuncture, that may be another Taoist element she uses.
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The only other thing that comes to mind when I think of needles is Quieting Needles from the Pathfinder tabletop RP. These needles are inserted into corpses so that when they are raised from the dead the newly reanimated corpse has to deal with needles puncturing their internals. I'm not sure if this is something that Pathfinder came up with or if that can somehow be traced back to some inspiration.
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There could be many cases in Japanese magic, pop culture or historical, where needles play a part. There's even a real festival in some regions of Japan, for properly enshrining and then discarding used needles, so they don't turn into tsukumogami. But needles as a major weapon type, as far as I knew, only happened in Chinese martial arts fiction. We still have no solid proof on where ZUN got this idea though.
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Maybe the needles are just, you know, a form of danmaku? Danmaku needn't be actual projectile weapons. Murasa sprays water at you and each drop is still as lethal as Shou's lasers. And Akyuu even suggested using cellphones as danmaku.
Or if you want to talk outside Spellcard rules, note that Reimu uses what are basically pieces of papers as her main projectile. The justification is that youkai are more susceptible to spiritual attacks, but they also work on other humans like Marisa. Surely they must also contain some magical power that also works on non-youkai. Her needles might be imbued with the same thing.
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Maybe the needles are just, you know, a form of danmaku?
NO YOU ARE WRONG
WE WILL OVERTHINK THIS THING AND ARGUE WITH EACH OTHER UNTIL THAT HAIR IS SPLIT TO THE SUBATOMIC LEVEL
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NO YOU ARE WRONG
WE WILL OVERTHINK THIS THING AND ARGUE WITH EACH OTHER UNTIL THAT HAIR IS SPLIT TO THE SUBATOMIC LEVEL
It is our true purpose here, after all :V
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Even if the needles are danmaku, that still brings the question as to why Reimu (and Yukari) chose to use them as danmaku. The majority of characters' danmaku is whatever it is for a reason.
(as an aside, I always thought that Yoshika's "kunai" was meant to represent zombie pus. That's what it looks like to me since it moves so slowly in such dense amounts, at least)
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I've always suspected Yukari's purple kunai bullets are her "needles". No one else has used kunai bullets in the fighting games. However this is unlikely, since canonically "needles" refer to the small bullet-shaped bullets, such as those in Hina's spell cards, or Orin's Needle Mountain spell card.
By the way, the bullet type commonly called "arrows" in the Western fandom should actually be "scales". That's why they are the main bullet type of Wakasagihime. The TD arrows are real arrows.
I refined my google search, and got some better results.
1. Flying needle are a real thing (http://baike.baidu.cn/albums/6972287/7113392/1/2497153.html) in China.
2. Accodring to the official website of Iga Ninja Museum (English (http://www.iganinja.jp/old/english/godou/karada/f_hari.html), Japanese (http://www.iganinja.jp/old/japanese/godou/karada/f_hari.html), Chinese (http://www.iganinja.jp/old/chinese/godou/karada/f_hari.html)) and another article (1 (http://www.rekishijin.jp/rekishijinblog/kuroi/%E7%AC%AC19%E5%9B%9E%E3%80%80%E5%BF%8D%E8%80%85%E3%81%AE%E9%87%9D%E3%81%AE%E8%A9%B1%E3%81%AE%E5%B7%BB/), 2 (http://www.rekishijin.jp/rekishijinblog/kuroi/%E5%BF%8D%E8%80%85%E3%81%AE%E9%87%9D%E3%81%AE%E8%A9%B1%E3%81%AE%E5%B7%BB%E3%80%80%E3%81%9D%E3%81%AE%EF%BC%92/)), ninjas are known to use needles that may function as sewing tools, acupuncture needles and weapons. As a weapon, needles are used in two ways: fired from a blowgun, or kept in the mouth and spit out at the opponent's eyes. There was also supposed to be a legendary needle art that can kill a row of enemies with one needle projectile, lol.
3. In modern Japanese pop culture, flying needle users seem to be generally associated with Chinese magic and acupuncture, such as "Juubei of Flying Needles" (http://getbackers.wikia.com/wiki/Juubei_Kakei), a character from the shounen manga Get Backers.
Specifically for Reimu, I think the main reason for using needles are the same as using ofuda seals, her other main weapon. I can vaguely remember in Japan, needles are often used in exorcism and youkai-sealing in conjunction with ofuda. After all, in MoF, the needle type is called "Demon-Sealing Needles".
However, researching this topic proves quite difficult. I can't find anything to confirm it yet.
Obviously, needles and nails are also used for curses. I'm not sure if there's any relationship between its purpose for curses, exorcism and acupuncture.
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By the way, the bullet type commonly called "arrows" in the Western fandom should actually be "scales". That's why they are the main bullet type of Wakasagihime.
Aren't they just Hibachi's bullets from DoDonPachi? Is there any reason to think that they're supposed to be scales aside from Wakasagihime using them?
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Indeed, they are just Hibachi's bullets. They are "scales", because that's how the Japanese shooting game community have always called them. Wakasagihime just sort of established the "scales" part as a thing that also exists in-universe for Touhou.
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By the way, the bullet type commonly called "arrows" in the Western fandom should actually be "scales". That's why they are the main bullet type of Wakasagihime. The TD arrows are real arrows.
Eh, I always called them "spear points" after TD introduced actual arrows danmaku, just because they vaguely look like that. Really, relation of character using different shaped danmaku doesn't always appy with some cases (like Yukari using kunais for no particular reason).
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Indeed, they are just Hibachi's bullets. They are "scales", because that's how the Japanese shooting game community have always called them. Wakasagihime just sort of established the "scales" part as a thing that also exists in-universe for Touhou.
Next you'll tell me they don't call those tiny white bullets "popcorn"!
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Scale (鱗) bullets are also often called wedge (楔) bullets. "Popcorn" are called bead/grain (粒) bullets.
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About Yukari, maybe she opened a gap in space to suck air out to create a sharp-shaped vacuum are and then send that vacuum area as needles?...That's needlessly complex, huh?
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Yukari, like Yuyuko learn some ninjitsu back in the day, so that is probably why she sometimes throws Kunai.
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You know, I have been wondering what those rune symbols (magic circles) are there for, story wise and gameplay wise. Especially with some of the "special" ones like Yuyuko's fan, Yukari's snowflake, BYakuren's and Miko's flower...
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Miko's flower...
I was actually told that Miko's glyph isn't a flower, but rather butterfly wings. It's meant as a reference to the butterfly dream thing, which is a taoist tale.
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1. Yuyuko's fan
Gameplay-wise, the fan gives her a huge extra hitbox that takes 1/3 damage compared to directly attacking Yuyuko, so you can keep damaging Yuyuko, even when slowly moving through her dense danmaku.
The symbology of this fan deserves another post.
2. Ran's Buddha
Ran's symbol looks like a typical small Buddhist portrait or icon, probably the kind drawn or carved onto a talisman.
3. Yukari's eight-pointed "snowflake"
It's the same symbol that rotates on PC when you focus. It's also the background of ESoD difficulty selection screen. Another special appearance of the symbol is in IN. When a bosss charges up for a special attack in IN, the special effect is many "snowflake" symbols gathering on the character.
SaBND also referenced Yukari's symbol, when she was getting into a battle position to test the fairies' strength.
My personal theory is, this is the symbol of spell card rules.
4. Byakuren's butterfly
It's a butterfly, since her spell cards Magic "Bewitching Fragrance of Makai Butterfly" / Magic "Magic Butterfly" referenced it. This one seems to have no meaning other than referencing Shinki... It will be a Taoist reference if appearing on a Taoist character.
5. Miko's halo
Contrary to popular belief in the Western fandom, this isn't a Taoist butterfly reference. Instead this is a reference to the fiery halo behind Buddhist statues. Prince Shoutoku was thought to be an avatar of the bodhisattva Kannon, and this is referenced by Miko's spell cards Light Sign "Halo of Guse Kannon / Light Sign "Guse Flash" ("guse" is Kannon's title, "world-saving").
Before delving into Yuyuko's fan, I want to post about the various boss charge-up and explosion effects since PCB, simply because I had recently thought about it. Skip to the next post if you are uninterested!
In PCB, the effect is snowflakes for Stage 1-4 (so even Lily White exploded into snowflakes), and sakura petals for Stage 5-Phantasm. Aside from relation to story, this also effectively makes PCB one half winter and one half spring in terms of stage numbers.
In IN, all bosses explode into maple leaves, the symbol of autumn. For charge-up, most bosses use the eight-pointed symbol, except for Wriggle who blinks.
In StB, the bosses' explosion effect is plain and quick.
In MoF, all bosses charge-up and explode with maple leaves. However, ZUN somehow didn't do anything to change this effect for the subsequent games set in different seasons, until TD, where it's at last replaced by sakura petals, in keeping with the spring season.
Since DDC is set in autumn, the effect is maple leaves again.
In summary, the symbols for each season (also see the "now loading" effects):
Spring - sakura
Summer - no idea, the summer games are ESoD and fighting games
Autumn - maple leaves
Winter - snowflakes
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I know you put effort searching the "special" signs for characters, but what about the normal one? You know, the magic circles what has hexagram inside it. It doesn't seem to just appear with the bosses, player characters, some enemies and even "familiars" (as in, those things what spawn bullets like in Esoterica "Astronomical Entombing" spellcard) have them. So I would argue that would be sort of official danmaku symbol.
Also, lol for summer having anything noticeable to it, neither with special effects or characters.
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Now, the image on Yuyuko's fan. First of all, to state the obvious, this image was not drawn by ZUN. Like all the traditional imagery and photos in Touhou, it is something ZUN found from his stock image libraries.
It is often said among fans that this image depicts hell. But this is inaccurate.
In fact, this image references the same topic as Kokoro's spell card, Melancholy Sign "The Melancholic World is a Melancholic Cart" (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hopeless_Masquerade/Spell_Cards/Hata_no_Kokoro#Spell_Card_Story_Mode_1).
Here's a more complete explanation for this reference than the current wiki footnote:
There is a Japanese proverb, 浮世は牛の小車 "the fleeting world is a small ox cart". Both 浮 "floating" uki and 牛 "ox" ushi are puns on 憂き/憂し "worry, melancholy". Kokoro's spell card name actually explained away the puns in the proverb outright.
It originated from "Aoi no Ue" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aoi_no_Ue), a classic noh play based on Genji Monogatari, so for Kokoro, there's a direct noh connection. To bad her other story mode spell cards don't seem to contain any good noh references...
"Aoi no Ue" actually provided more explanation of the sentence: according to Buddhism, a person's process of reincarnation in the universe's Six Realms is compared to the rotation of a wheel, always moving but with no end in sight. The kanji for cart 車 can mean both "land vehicle" and "wheel". So the sentence is saying, the fleeting world is an endlessly turning wheel of sorrow.
Now take a look at Yuyuko's fan. It depicts an ox cart often used by Japanese aristocrats. However, unlike a real ox cart, its wheel has only 6 spokes. In a standard depiction of Six Realms, they are shown as 6 partitions of a wheel, divided by 6 spokes. This is how we know this image also symbolizes the proverb. Before you confront Yuyuko, you have to go through Youmu's spell cards, which are themed after the Six Realms, so the use of this image here is no coincidence.
EDIT:
Is Melancholy Sign "The Melancholic World is a Melancholic Cart" a good way to translate it?
Melancholy Sign "The Sad World is a Cart of Sadness"
Worry Sign "The Sad World is a Cart of Sorrow"
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Ahem, there are two more "wheel of suffering" (the ox cart saying is a reference to that) references in spell cards: Yuugi's SA spell card, and Youmu's fighting game spell cards.
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I knew about the connection between the names and the proverb, but I never figured Yuyuko's fan was the same, and you definitely helped me flesh and connect these all together, even though I had nothing to do with the question. Thanks.
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Ah woah! I never knew the Youmu and Yuyuko proverb thing. That's pretty awesome. Thank you.
And now to what I wanted to ask. I remember reading (I think it was on this forum) that EoSD and PCB were just made so IN would have enough playable character.s Like IN was Zun's Magnum opus for the early Windows Era. Is there anything that can back this up?
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Ah woah! I never knew the Youmu and Yuyuko proverb thing. That's pretty awesome. Thank you.
And now to what I wanted to ask. I remember reading (I think it was on this forum) that EoSD and PCB were just made so IN would have enough playable character.s Like IN was Zun's Magnum opus for the early Windows Era. Is there anything that can back this up?
I'm not not entirely sure this is true, but I do know for certain that the reason he brought back Alice from the PC-98 era was so that Marisa would have a suitable partner in IN.
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And now to what I wanted to ask. I remember reading (I think it was on this forum) that EoSD and PCB were just made so IN would have enough playable character.s Like IN was Zun's Magnum opus for the early Windows Era. Is there anything that can back this up?
In the おまけ.txt of the trial version of Imperishable Night.
紅魔郷、妖々夢と勘のいい人は気が付いていたかも知れませんが、二つのゲ
ーム、人間と妖怪二人一組というキーワードを幾つか入れてたんですよね。人
間妖怪の二人一組のゲームを作りたい、でも突然新キャラで自キャラを用意さ
れても愛着がわかない。だからまず敵キャラとして登場させるゲームを創る、
っていう訳です。それで三部作予定、気の長い話だ。
咲夜と妖夢の相手役妖怪を違和感無く出すのは簡単でしたが、霊夢と魔理沙
の相手を出すのが難しい。妖怪版魔理沙と称するアリスはその為の布石だった
んですが、妖々夢の時はかなり唐突過ぎて不自然に感じられた人もいたかも。
あと紫は、霊夢と能力を被らせて、性格も浮世離れしている所を似させました。
霊夢と釣り合いが取れる様にこんな形に。胡散臭いのはその為。
It says something about that he wanted to make a game with a Human-Youkai team system, but suddenly popping in new characters will be weird, so he made games with those characters as enemies.
(The actual Japanese says something slightly different about 'weird', but I don't know how to express 愛着がわかない)
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Oooh, thanks for clarifying that up for me.
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In the おまけ.txt of the trial version of Imperishable Night.
It says something about that he wanted to make a game with a Human-Youkai team system, but suddenly popping in new characters will be weird, so he made games with those characters as enemies.
(The actual Japanese says something slightly different about 'weird', but I don't know how to express 愛着がわかない)
Thanks! I think I've read it, but can't find it now. Where is the full IN Trial omake.txt text on the wiki?
I'd translate that as "if new character are suddenly introduced as playable characters, players won't feel any attachment to them".
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Go download the trial version of th08 from http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/. It's a bit less than 400 lines.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Imperishable_Night_Demo:_Afterword
Had no idea it was already translated in the wiki.
I actually found out that it was in the th08tr omake.txt from Yakumo Yukari's article from http://www.toho-motoneta.net/. Nifty website.
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Thanks! You don't know how tremendously helpful this is to our Yukari research.
My own translation of the part about Yukari:After that it's Yukari. I made her ability overlap with Reimu's, and also, made her personality similar to Reimu in that they are removed from worldly matters*. This makes her a good foil to Reimu. Such were the shady measures I took.
* 浮世離れ: Literally "distant/removed from the fleeting world", meaning a person is unfamiliar/unconcerned with worldly matters. If understood negatively, implies a lack of common sense in dealing with them. If understood positively, means a person is above such matters.
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...I think both apply.
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I always wanted to know, if Satori is feared by almost all Youkai, what is the relationship between her Yuugi, Parsee, and Yamame? Wouldn't they fear her as well? Or are they apart of a small minority that doesn't fear her due to similarities in how other Youkai treat them?
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I'm pretty sure that like all oni, Yuugi would profess a complete lack of any fears whatsoever. Beyond that, there's nothing in canon (as far as I know) which states that Parsee and Yamame are exceptions, so they probably do.
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I think the question was partially brought up by Parsee and Yamame's presence in HM's Koishi stage?
All we know is Yuugi said this about the satori in the Yukari route:
そこには偉そうにしている奴らがいるんだよ
Wiki translation: "A bunch of stuck-up folks live there."
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Satori is described as hated even among the hated, so I think by default your average underground youkai would want to avoid her. And we have no reason to believe that Parsee etc are exceptions.
I'm also not sure that having her show up in the stage means much. The creators were clearly trying to cram in as many characters as possible. We also see Seiga sitting next to Eiki and Komachi, which seems a bit odd given WaHH chapter 12.
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I think the question was partially brought up by Parsee and Yamame's presence in HM's Koishi stage?
Not really but yeah that made me think more about the situation. But I have wondered if there were a connection between them seeing as all of them are described as being hated. Well maybe not Yuugi but still.
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I always wanted to know, if Satori is feared by almost all Youkai, what is the relationship between her Yuugi, Parsee, and Yamame? Wouldn't they fear her as well? Or are they apart of a small minority that doesn't fear her due to similarities in how other Youkai treat them?
Yuugi doesn't fear Satori, but Yuugi doesn't have a positive opinion on her.
I'm also not sure that having her show up in the stage means much. The creators were clearly trying to cram in as many characters as possible. We also see Seiga sitting next to Eiki and Komachi, which seems a bit odd given WaHH chapter 12.
I don't think that is too odd. Neither Eiki or Komachi have anything against Seiga. Eiki would most likely try to persuade Seiga to change her ways.
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I don't think that is too odd. Neither Eiki or Komachi have anything against Seiga. Eiki would most likely try to persuade Seiga to change her ways.
Last time we saw them Eiki had sent an assassin after her. And even if she wants to play nice, it's still odd to just ignore her entirely. At the very least she deserves a lecture.
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Last time we saw them Eiki had sent an assassin after her. And even if she wants to play nice, it's still odd to just ignore her entirely. At the very least she deserves a lecture.
Who sent it depends on the hierarchy structure of the Ministry. The assassin could have been sent by someone even higher up, someone responsible for dealing with special cases like Seiga, or the judge in charge of Seiga's home province.
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@cuc: I don't think anyone is higher up than Eiki as far as jurisdiction is concerned. But I do think it is possible for someone else to send an assassin. Any of the Yamas could do it, and not all of them are as merciful as Eiki as she implied in Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing.
@Clarste: Did Eiki send an assassin after her? An assassin from Hell was sent after her, but was it sent by Eiki?
Eiki's thing is mercy, but since they are spectators, I don't think they are going to expand on background characters doing stuff, that will just distract players.
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Who sent it depends on the hierarchy structure of the Ministry. The assassin could have been sent by someone even higher up, someone responsible for dealing with special cases like Seiga, or the judge in charge of Seiga's home province.
I had considered that, but I don't think it makes much difference as long as they're in the same organization.Eiki's thing is mercy, but since they are spectators, I don't think they are going to expand on background characters doing stuff, that will just distract players.
That much I can agree with, but that was kind of my point. Complex relationships are being ignored in favor of squeezing in more spectators. Therefore Parsee and Yamame's presence doesn't mean much.
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It's like saying Orin's dance is now a canonical dance rather than just a thing they did. It really just doesn't matter at all.
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Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)
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Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)
I think Kasen said something about the oni needing to come back to the surface at a rate of a very slow trickle somewhere in WAHH.
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Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)
This is actually answered in Marisa's ending (she talks to Yuugi). Apparently they're sneaking in because all the villagers are too excited by the fights to notice. This is just an explanation for why they're in the Human Village though, not on the Surface.
Regarding that matter, after SoPM I now get the impression that the Underground youkai never had any restrictions like that in the first place. The deal that Yukari mentioned is that the Surface won't interfere with the Underground as long as the vengeful spirits are being managed. And as clarified in SoPM the Underground is where youkai go when they don't want to deal with rules. So basically it's a one-sided deal. The Surface agreed to leave them alone so they can't go down (which is why none of the youkai partners go with you in Subterranean Animism), but the Underground doesn't have any restrictions like that. They can come and go as they like, it just happens to be the case that they like it down there. Which is why they moved there.
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I have no problem with Seiga sitting next to Eiki and Komachi. First of all Komachi doesn't have a thing to do with assassinations, even if she was doing her job. Eiki might have personally sent an assassin after Seiga but Eiki also follows rules. Seiga just beat her centennial assassin so she can take it easy for a while, because she knows that Eiki won't send another one. As for Eiki, yeah a lecture might be in order, to everyone present.
I agree, characters were just kinda squeezed into HM, so I don't pay attention to the backgrounds much. I don't know much about Eiki but why would she even come to see a fight?
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Regarding HM background characters, why is Yuugi in the human village? I thought the underground youkai weren't allowed to go out? (except Koishi, but I guess she's special)
I though that undergorund youkais can go in and out of Former Hell and that overworld youkais cannot enter Former Hell. I mean, Orin frequently visits burial ceremonies to snatch up corpses and some other stuff I forgot about other characters
On Satori, I am pretty sure the reason why satoris are hated because they read minds. Even if a person wouldn't fear satoris, talking with them is almost impossible because they just say the things you were going to say before you can say them. So them being around Satori is no problem, its just being with Satori can be irritating.
Also Imosa, Seiga didn't as much beat the kishin as much as she escaped its graps. Of course, if outsmarting the kishin means defeating it, that works too.
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I guess I can't say this with certainty, but I don't think Seiga's encounter in WaHH 12 was part of the standard "every hundred years" thing that the Ministry normally does. First of all, it's always been said that Shinigami do that, and indeed people like Tenshi have actually fought shinigami every hundred years. Komachi herself says that shinigami never reap souls, and that those who do are something scarier (kishin). What this all implies to me, assuming there's no lying or retconning involved, is that shinigami normally fight hermits and celestials as a non-lethal test every hundred years, while when the Ministry really wants someone dead they send a kishin. And they really want Seiga dead.
This gibes with the fact that everyone and their mother seems to hate Seiga or at least recognize her as an evil abomination. The series is light-hearted enough to make a joke out of it, but she's literally evil. Heaven rejected her, she's called a wicked hermit, Byakuren's "Detect Evil" sensors are blaring wildly, etc. She disrupts the divine providence of samsara, uses unholy magic, etc etc. Seriously bad news. I really don't see why Heaven would suffer such a person to live if they can help it, much less "play fair" the way they do with the good hermits and only send an assassin every hundred years. And no hard feelings between attempts? Eh, samsara wasn't that important anyway.
Furthermore, she was apparently caught off-guard. You really think she wouldn't be counting the years between assassinations? I mean, she's confident but in the end she doesn't want to die. And Hell wants her to die. She's not paying the Ministry off with good deeds like Kasen is, so why exactly does Kasen need to that if they have the same standing?
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Regarding that matter, after SoPM I now get the impression that the Underground youkai never had any restrictions like that in the first place. The deal that Yukari mentioned is that the Surface won't interfere with the Underground as long as the vengeful spirits are being managed. And as clarified in SoPM the Underground is where youkai go when they don't want to deal with rules. So basically it's a one-sided deal. The Surface agreed to leave them alone so they can't go down (which is why none of the youkai partners go with you in Subterranean Animism), but the Underground doesn't have any restrictions like that. They can come and go as they like, it just happens to be the case that they like it down there. Which is why they moved there.
That's what I figured as well. People were talking about how the underground works before and I came to the conclusion that the entrance to the underground has always been there, and the geysers appearing with vengeful spirits had nothing to do with the entrance you'd use; it's just that it was "never mentioned before", like much of Gensokyo's geography. The deal between the higher-up youkai and the underground youkai made it so that the youkai above ground wouldn't interfere with the youkai below, which is why Yukari has to send Reimu/Marisa, humans, to the underground in the stead of the youkai, who couldn't go down for unexplained reasons despite them noticing the problem in the first place. These two notions basically fixed both problems I previously had with SA's scenario. This is supported by Marisa going to and fro as she pleases, and the underground youkai going as they please, but the above-ground youkai not going underground even after the events of SA.
Re: above post:
I concur.
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I agree with the above posts. One thing to note is that the agreement might be considered broken now, since dangerous spirits were still leaking out of the geyser last time we saw it (WaHH), while Aya and Hatate has been going down all the way to the fiery hell in DS.
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I guess I can't say this with certainty, but I don't think Seiga's encounter in WaHH 12 was part of the standard "every hundred years" thing that the Ministry normally does. First of all, it's always been said that Shinigami do that, and indeed people like Tenshi have actually fought shinigami every hundred years. Komachi herself says that shinigami never reap souls, and that those who do are something scarier (kishin). What this all implies to me, assuming there's no lying or retconning involved, is that shinigami normally fight hermits and celestials as a non-lethal test every hundred years, while when the Ministry really wants someone dead they send a kishin. And they really want Seiga dead.
This gibes with the fact that everyone and their mother seems to hate Seiga or at least recognize her as an evil abomination. The series is light-hearted enough to make a joke out of it, but she's literally evil. Heaven rejected her, she's called a wicked hermit, Byakuren's "Detect Evil" sensors are blaring wildly, etc. She disrupts the divine providence of samsara, uses unholy magic, etc etc. Seriously bad news. I really don't see why Heaven would suffer such a person to live if they can help it, much less "play fair" the way they do with the good hermits and only send an assassin every hundred years. And no hard feelings between attempts? Eh, samsara wasn't that important anyway.
Furthermore, she was apparently caught off-guard. You really think she wouldn't be counting the years between assassinations? I mean, she's confident but in the end she doesn't want to die. And Hell wants her to die. She's not paying the Ministry off with good deeds like Kasen is, so why exactly does Kasen need to that if they have the same standing?
Hold on, Shinigami don't reap souls, Kishin do. As far as I can tell, Kishin are completely different from Shinigami, being a type if Oni. When has it ever been mentioned that shinigami attack anything? Also, the centennial fights between Kishin and Hermits/Celestials are far from non-lethal. They are, like, the most lethal fights in the series, seeing as the Kishin is meant to be an assassin.
Seems to me like people want the "good hermits" dead too. Everyone is extending their life and that's wrong. As for "playing fair", just because someone is evil doesn't mean they fall outside of expected parameters. If heaven has an organized and robust system in place, they can deal with a threat like... evil.
You really think the Kishin doesn't wait for an opportune moment to attack? It doesn't have to walk up an introduce itself. Besides, I never thought that the time between attacks was 100 years to the moment, it's just a rule of thumb, that a kishin will attack about once every hundred years.
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Hold on, Shinigami don't reap souls, Kishin do. As far as I can tell, Kishin are completely different from Shinigami, being a type if Oni. When has it ever been mentioned that shinigami attack anything? Also, the centennial fights between Kishin and Hermits/Celestials are far from non-lethal. They are, like, the most lethal fights in the series, seeing as the Kishin is meant to be an assassin.
When Tenshi fought Komachi in the latter's SWR storyline, she was talking about fights with shinigami. Kishin was a big reveal in that WaHH chapter, coming from Komachi herself (to Kasen, no less). What Clarste said is absolutely true.
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Apologies beforehand for quoting TvTropes, but I've read somewhere in there that due to a certain fan theory, Ten Desires may have been able to connect to every Windows game in one go. Any idea what is that theory?
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Apologies beforehand for quoting TvTropes, but I've read somewhere in there that due to a certain fan theory, Ten Desires may have been able to connect to every Windows game in one go. Any idea what is that theory?
This is actually by Word of ZUN. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ten_Desires_special_and_two-part_interview_with_ZUN#Summary)
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When Tenshi fought Komachi in the latter's SWR storyline, she was talking about fights with shinigami. Kishin was a big reveal in that WaHH chapter, coming from Komachi herself (to Kasen, no less). What Clarste said is absolutely true.
Maybe someone can restate what Clarste said because it's not very clear to me. Let me start with this question. So Shinigami hunt good hermits ever ~100 years, but not to kill them? If yes, and if that is supported by the time in WaHH when Komachi says Shinigami don't kill people (or something to that effect), and that Tenshi says she has fought Shinigami. How does that work with when Komachi tells Tenshi that she's not one of the Shinigami who claim souls?
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So Shinigami hunt good hermits ever ~100 years, but not to kill them?
Going by the main official source on the matter (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Hermits), hermits are hunted by assassins from Hell. From what we can see in other sources, those can be either shinigami or kishin. We can't say any better than that.
How does that work with when Komachi tells Tenshi that she's not one of the Shinigami who claim souls?
Her reaction is just "Oh wow, a different shinigami? This is fun, let's fight!" She gets defeated, but survives just fine.
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The way I understood it, shinigami specialized in collecting souls (which are different from shinigami ferryman) are the norm, while kishin are used in special cases. And Seiga's certainly a special case; not only is she eeeeeeeevil, but also far older than normal for a hermit (going by what Akyuu says in her profile), and therefore, probably more powerful.
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Going by the main official source on the matter (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Hermits), hermits are hunted by assassins from Hell. From what we can see in other sources, those can be either shinigami or kishin. We can't say any better than that.
Her reaction is just "Oh wow, a different shinigami? This is fun, let's fight!" She gets defeated, but survives just fine.
So PMiSS is interesting. On one hand Akyuu (unless stated otherwise) could be like a majority of people and think Shinigami do the actual killing; however, since I remember hearing that Akyuu actually works for Eiki between her reincarnations, she could be someone who knows the truth behind shinigami and kishin. If she uses the word "assassin", then she remains vague enough to not tell a lie while still keeping the nature of shinigami and kishin a secret.
Its true that Tenshi's reaction to the shinigami is suspicious; however, the fact that she is fine after being defeated is not. Komachi is not a reaper, ergo, she won't be killing Tenshi even if it was time for an assassin to come after her.
One idea, could a reaper shinigami be a reference to a kishin? Could we view shinigami as a job rather then a species, allowing for an oni to be both a kishin, and a shinigami.
Second idea, could hermits+celestials also be unaware that the things attacking them are not shinigami but, in fact, kishin? In reading WaHH 12, I found a bit of a problem with this idea. It seems Seiga was not surprised when she was asked if she was the one being attacked by Suiki (the kishin). While that pokes a bit of a hole in the idea, as I'd expect Seiga might be more curious to figure out that she wasn't actually fighting a shinigami, I'd like to hear other opinions.
On a tangential note, chapter 12 treats the kishin secret very strangely. Kasen is surprised when she finds out kishin are the ones that kill. However, when Kasen relays this information to Marisa, Reimu, and Nitori, none of then question why a kishin is attacking a hermit rather then a shinigami. The whole thing makes me question whats going on with this secret to begin with, and in turn question Seiga's reaction. Also, Kasen, way to casually reveal the secret of death.
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Why would you expect Seiga to be surprised in the first place? Presumably she's been fighting these things for centuries or more. This ain't her first rodeo.
Komachi's surprise at Kasen not knowing just tells me that most hermits are aware of this. It occupies the space between common knowledge and secret lore that you'd naturally expect an immortal mystic to know (but no one else). Other "sage" characters like Yukari and Eirin probably know too.
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Komachi's surprise at Kasen not knowing just tells me that most hermits are aware of this.
We can only guess as to why Kasen, as a hermit, doesn't know about this, right? :P
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We can only guess as to why Kasen, as a hermit, doesn't know about this, right? :P
Well, yeah, the chapter was basically about Komachi forgetting that Kasen is a "special case".
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Why would you expect Seiga to be surprised in the first place? Presumably she's been fighting these things for centuries or more. This ain't her first rodeo.
Komachi's surprise at Kasen not knowing just tells me that most hermits are aware of this. It occupies the space between common knowledge and secret lore that you'd naturally expect an immortal mystic to know (but no one else). Other "sage" characters like Yukari and Eirin probably know too.
I wouldn't, really. This is all stemming from me trying to understand what you were saying in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13761.msg989222.html#msg989222). Have you read what I posted since you made that post?
Also, I wouldn't call Komachi surprised, at Kasen's not knowing. I always figured that Kasen was fairly new to the whole Hermit thing, so she hasn't even fought an assassin yet.
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I wouldn't, really. This is all stemming from me trying to understand what you were saying in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13761.msg989222.html#msg989222). Have you read what I posted since you made that post?
I read it, but other people were explaining it so I hoped it had been cleared up. Starting from the top:
- Everyone thinks shinigami reap souls. Komachi says this is a lie.
- It's said that hermits and celestials have to fight shinigami every hundred years or so. This is an official policy that everyone is aware of. Tenshi confirms this as true. She has actually fought shinigami before, but never lost.
- Therefore these scheduled fights are not actually reaping souls. That was the lie. There are fights with shinigami, but they are not "reaped" if they lose. My personal interpretation is that it's a test of some sort. Maybe if they fail the test they get marked for death later, but the shinigami aren't in charge of that.
- Heaven doesn't like people living too long in general, but they approve of most hermits and celestials. Why? Because they're enlightened and do good deeds. Komachi sort of bullies Kasen into doing good deeds in some of the earlier chapters. Because Kasen is afraid of losing her approval. There's clearly some sort of "officially approved hermit" thing going on, even if Komachi forgets about Kasen's special situation.
- Seiga does not do good deeds and has been explicitly rejected by heaven, unlike every other hermit. She's special. I won't say unique, but we've never met another hermit like her.
- Kishin exist, separately from shinigami, to act as Hell's assassins. This is completely separate from the regular 100 year "test". They are only sent when Hell seriously wants someone dead. IE: Seiga.
- Therefore the kishin are probably sent after Seiga more often than one hundred years. They just want her to die, so she can properly judged at death. People dying is how the Ministry of Right and Wrong deals with evil, since they get sentenced to an appropriate afterlife by the Yama. If they never die, then the process doesn't work. So they need to kill her, by any means necessary. You talk about Hell having a system to deal with people who are evil and immortal. Well, this is that system. What other system could there be?
From what I can tell, the important part of what I wrote that you didn't understand is the part where Seiga is a special case. She is not an ordinary hermit from Hell's perspective, but you seem to be acting like she is. Heck, her species is listed as "Wicked Hermit". It's a different category of being.
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Its true that Tenshi's reaction to the shinigami is suspicious; however, the fact that she is fine after being defeated is not. Komachi is not a reaper, ergo, she won't be killing Tenshi even if it was time for an assassin to come after her.
Of course Tenshi would be fine. Komachi already stated that she doesn't reap souls, since she is just a humble ferry woman. In Komachi's ending, it mentions that she may want such a job, because of Tenshi.
Therefore these scheduled fights are not actually reaping souls. That was the lie. There are fights with shinigami, but they are not "reaped" if they lose. My personal interpretation is that it's a test of some sort. Maybe if they fail the test they get marked for death later, but the shinigami aren't in charge of that.
I disagree, Komachi's Scarlet Weather Rhapsody ending says otherwise. Unless, at the time of SWR, she does not know that Shinigami do not reap souls. I believe these tests are fatal if you fail.
I agree more or less with everything else.
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Her ending doesn't imply that they're killed in the fights, the point she mentions is to make them fear death. The fight itself doesn't have to be lethal for this to hold.
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Alright, it seems to me that this is all stemming from the fact that Tenshi says she has fought Shinigami in previous tests. I'm going to put that aside for a second.
- Heaven doesn't like people living too long in general, but they approve of most hermits and celestials. Why? Because they're enlightened and do good deeds. Komachi sort of bullies Kasen into doing good deeds in some of the earlier chapters. Because Kasen is afraid of losing her approval. There's clearly some sort of "officially approved hermit" thing going on, even if Komachi forgets about Kasen's special situation.
Just to be sure, what is Heaven? Is the Ministry of Right and Wrong (and by extension Eiki) part of it? This entire process of life death and reincarnation sounds like it could use a chart.
It appears that someone is judging the hermits/celestials (is there some kind of unified name for these two), but isn't judging the deeds of people Eiki's job, and isn't that job done when people actually die? Seiga is an "evil hermit" but who actually makes the distinction?
The way I remember this whole deal working out is that, the hermit/celestial is attacked every ~100 years, and if they have been dutiful in their training (like they are supposed to be) then they will survive and keep living and if not then they will be killed continue in the cycle of reincarnation.
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Just to be sure, what is Heaven? Is the Ministry of Right and Wrong (and by extension Eiki) part of it? This entire process of life death and reincarnation sounds like it could use a chart.
Honestly, I use Heaven, Hell and the Ministry of Right and Wrong interchangeably, which was probably more confusing than it needed to be. The way the series treats them, they're all part of one "government" and while I suppose it might be inaccurate to pin the deeds of one onto another, ZUN hasn't really made any attempt to distinguish them. Eiki works for the Ministry of Right and Wrong, which explicitly runs both Hell and the Netherworld, and I don't think there's any reason to believe they don't run Heaven too. Or at least work together closely.
"Heaven" is the one who judged Seiga in her backstory, and the Kishin sent to kill her in chapter 12 was from "Hell". According to Akyuu, most hermits have not been judged evil by Heaven, and in fact ascend bodily after sufficient time. "Hermit" is fundamentally a temporary position, because hermits move on to become celestials and divine spirits and whatnot. The fact that Seiga's existed in the "lower state" of hermitdom for so long is another sign of her evil.
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Can't we just say the place Eiki works as "the Afterlife" to avoid all these confusions?
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Honestly, I use Heaven, Hell and the Ministry of Right and Wrong interchangeably, which was probably more confusing than it needed to be. The way the series treats them, they're all part of one "government" and while I suppose it might be inaccurate to pin the deeds of one onto another, ZUN hasn't really made any attempt to distinguish them. Eiki works for the Ministry of Right and Wrong, which explicitly runs both Hell and the Netherworld, and I don't think there's any reason to believe they don't run Heaven too. Or at least work together closely.
I think this has more to do with the cultural differences between western and eastern cultures. I guess I see it like this, Hell and Heaven are one government, but I guess you can say different branches? Kind of like Senate, Judicial, and Presidential(my terms might be wrong here) branches. As far as I know, Heaven can sometimes have jurisdiction in Hell, and vice versa, but they generally don't overlap.
If we are to assume the Ministry of Right and Wrong is what Eiki works for, then the Ministry of Right and Wrong runs Hell. I believe Yuyuko runs the Netherworld. The Ministry of Right and Wrong is more or less off hands on the Netherworld. Though it may have the right to overrule Yuyuko's descision, but I am unsure.
Her ending doesn't imply that they're killed in the fights, the point she mentions is to make them fear death. The fight itself doesn't have to be lethal for this to hold.
The point is moot if knowledge of such an event cannot happen. How do you make them fear something that they know does not happen? You need to make that a possibility, so they can fear it.
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If we are to assume the Ministry of Right and Wrong is what Eiki works for, then the Ministry of Right and Wrong runs Hell. I believe Yuyuko runs the Netherworld. The Ministry of Right and Wrong is more or less off hands on the Netherworld. Though it may have the right to overrule Yuyuko's descision, but I am unsure.
Yuyuko was appointed by Eiki, and hears complaints about her subordinate through Eiki. "Appointing" doesn't necessarily mean that Eiki continues to have authority over her, but they're surely part of the same system. Co-workers.
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Just to be sure, what is Heaven? Is the Ministry of Right and Wrong (and by extension Eiki) part of it? This entire process of life death and reincarnation sounds like it could use a chart.
It appears that someone is judging the hermits/celestials (is there some kind of unified name for these two), but isn't judging the deeds of people Eiki's job, and isn't that job done when people actually die? Seiga is an "evil hermit" but who actually makes the distinction?
Here's some more useful information on those questions. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Yama) I know, I'm too link-happy lately, but seriously, that book is awesome and STILL RELEVANT (that page talks about kishin, by the way).
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The point is moot if knowledge of such an event cannot happen. How do you make them fear something that they know does not happen? You need to make that a possibility, so they can fear it.
I argue the opposite: They couldn't possibly fear death if they were simply killed outright. It isn't necessary that the shinigami actually kill them as long as they feel as though the threat is valid; that they acknowledge that they can indeed die. They aren't immortal in the sense that it is impossible for them to die (besides the ones who attain nirvana), so as long as the shinigami have some sort of influence, that's all that's necessary. The point is to get them to realize that they will die eventually, that they will be part of the cycle of reincarnation and will be judged, and as such they should get off their asses and continue to do the things they did to deserve heaven in the first place.
In any case, you're basing this on a one-off comment Komachi makes. It's entirely possible that the line is just a "yeah I'll show them" sort of line and not indicative of an actual intent at all.
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A question: We know that the standard spellcard name is "Something Sign: Spell Name", right? Does the word for 'sign' in the original Japanese have any kind of extra meaning? Or does it really just mean 'sign' and nothing else?
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One of the meanings for 符 is talisman, charm, amulet, etc.
It also could mean proof, evidence, certificate, etc.
It also could mean sign or symbol, etc.
Because ZUN used -の御札 in the earlier versions of th06, I'd say he probably meant the first meaning.
http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/img/th06/th6_04.jpg
http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/img/th06/th6_05.jpg
http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/img/th06/th6_06.jpg
http://www16.big.or.jp/~zun/img/th06/th6_07.jpg
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Specifically, ofuda, the kind of talisman created by drawing mystic symbols on paper.
The spell card history menu option is called Ofuda Battle Record in EoSD and PCB.
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Ahh, I see!
This brings me another question: what's the Japanese term for "Spellcard Rules"?
Since the spellcards rule seem to indicate that spells are to be written on a card, which makes me think that the 'cards' and ofuda might be similar after all. I was wondering if a more accurate translation would be like "Ice Spellcard ~ Icicle Fall" or something.
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スペルカードルール. It's just the English words "spell card rule" written phonetically.
"Ice Spellcard etc" - in a way, you are right, though it must be noted, the kanji 符's meaning of "paper talisman" is derived from "symbol", as in they are "paper with magic symbols".
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So it's just English words written in katakana, huh...? Figures.
What ZUN is intending is probably some thing like "This is a spellcard, its power is ice, and its name is Icicle Fall", so I guess "sign" isn't quite an accurate translation. But it sounds fine anyway. Thank you for the answer!
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I'm sure Sign gets the message across well. It isn't as if people actually think of the word as a literal signpost or something.
unless they do
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In any case, you're basing this on a one-off comment Komachi makes. It's entirely possible that the line is just a "yeah I'll show them" sort of line and not indicative of an actual intent at all.
In Scarlet Weather Rhapsody, there is a strong indication that shinigami can reap souls. Which in Wild and Horned Hermit suggests otherwise. The idea is that Komachi might be lying to Tenshi during that dialogue, since we have 2 conflicting pieces of information.
However, her ending indicates that she should not be lying to Tenshi, so her dialogue with Tenshi should be valid.
The point I am making here is that the fear can only happen if Celestials and Hermits can actually be killed. By that, I mean the possibility of a Shinigami killing a Celestial or Hermit is there.
If it was just a game, then there would be no such fear. Because the possibility of such a thing is not there. This is why I believe Shinigami can indeed reap souls.
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Well, like I said, they don't necessarily have to kill them as long as it's clear that they could kill them, or otherwise have some control over their mortality. Case in point, Tenshi even describes that the shinigami themselves aren't what they fear, but what they bring. The celestials fear the five signs of Decay, which are signs that the celestial will soon die:
1. Withering of flowered crown (with Tenshi's design, I would guess this to be her peaches)
2. Dirtied clothes
3. Bodily odor, body losing its light
4. Sweating armpits (really)
5. Being unhappy in their position, loss of self-awareness
These are referenced previously in Youmu's final card on Easy and Normal, and Marisa comments on it in GoM.
Shinigami, according to Tenshi, can bring the first sign of decay. I'm not saying that the fights with the shinigami are simply games, they just aren't necessarily lethal in and of themselves.
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In a minor game mod I've been working on, I was intending to include the Flower and boxy Shrine Tanks from SoEW as enemies and possibly controllable vehicles. The only problem is, I haven't the lick of sense on the size of either tank. Anybody have any ideas on how I could figure such a thing out?
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Then we are in agreement. The idea I am trying to convey here is that Shinigami can kill them.
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Hi there, I'm new to this site and to the vast Touhou Universe. I present myself, I am Biakmon a simple person who has just recently come across Touhou. Hope you take care of me.
I'm not sure if its really the appropriate place to post my questions concerning Touhou or even if they have already been addressed before. Also sorry if my poor English cause any inconvenient, English is not my first language but anyway.
"Canonically" speaking,
Q1) Does anyone know if it has ever been stated (by ZUN or in any official works) whether the gods in "Gensokyo" e.g Kanako, etc... (I'm not talking about gods in heaven) need to attend "Kamihakari" on the "Kannazuki" (also known as "the month there are no gods" in Japan?
Q2) Are youkai (excluding Ghost) in general considered as immortal in a sense - cannot die from age!?
Q3) How does "time" in Gensokyo function? - same as the Outside World or... Cause it seems that the inhabitants of Gensokyo (mainly human village) have almost remain stagnant in time without any major change?
Q4) Whom do you think personally amongst all the residents of Gensokyo can go out (am not talking breaking out by using force) of the Great Hakurei Barrier whenever they want by using their own power? (excluding Reimu/Yukari/dragon gods)
Q5) Does anyone know how large is the Gensokyo barrier (radius)?
Suppose someone continue to walk in one direction (let say North), will there be a pt where he/she could not travel any further as he/she come across the boundaries of the Gensokyo barrier or... dunno what?
If anyone could answer those questions (mainly Q1 & Q4) seriously without any fandom theory not to confuse me. Sorry if I sound rude in anyway by saying this.
I want to thank anyone in advance for there help your provide me by answering those questions.
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Don't worry, this is the right place for asking them. However, one basic feature of the Touhou canon is its intentional ambiguity, leaving most things to the readers' imagination. So only one question of yours has a definite answer.
Q: How does "time" in Gensokyo function?
The flow of time is the same in Gensokyo as in the outside world. Except for the Sealing Club stories in music CDs, which take place in near future, the majority of Touhou happens roughly in real time: the games often happen in the same year they are released, and the manga chapters are intentionally written to be in sync with real life seasons - this is why I strongly advise people to read them as they come out.
About the "stagnation" of the human village:
They are a small isolated population, and the only way they can obtain new technology is by learning from things drifted through the Border. For a village supposingly stuck in the 19th century, they are actually surprisingly advanced. ZUN said they had electricity, and an electrical lamp did appear in Forbidden Scrollery Chapter 1. More recently, the human village stage of Hopeless Masquerade showed villagers drinking from glass mugs, and a building with large glass windows. Those are all technologies the village couldn't possibly have when it became isolated.
Now, the other questions.
Q: Are youkai (excluding Ghost) in general considered as immortal in a sense - cannot die from age!?
A: Yes, generally youkai don't die from age; they only fade from existence when people no longer believe in them. In Symposium of Post-Mysticism, it is said that in the modern world, new youkai are still being born, because the world is still full of things unknown and uncomprehensible to humans (like "Murphy's law", or losing the TV remote control), but they will immediately disappear, because modern people are unable to affirm their belief in them, and shape them into legends that can be passed down.
Q: Whom do you think amongst all the residents of Gensokyo can go out?
A: The Border doesn't affect ordinary animals (Forbidden Scrollery Ch 6). It's also implied to not affect gods, since IIRC Kanako said she need to leave Gensokyo for certain businesses (I could be wrong about this one).
Q: Gensokyo barrier (radius)
A: A recent guess is 20 kilometers in radius. Gensokyo is a valley under Youkai Mountain, with a mythical peak higher than Mount Fuji.
Nothing is known about what happens when one go straight in one random direction.
Q: "Kamihakari" or "Kannazuki"
A: It's a good question, but the canon has said nothing about Kannazuki and Kamihakari (the meeting of gods) so far.
However, there happens to be a related tradition in real life...
In the whole Japan, only two places call October "Kamiarizuki" (the month where gods are present") instead of "Kannazuki". They are Izumo and Suwa. For Izumo, it's because the gods are gathering there; for Suwa, it's said because the Suwa god Take-minakata doesn't attend the meeting of gods. Local folklore says, this is because Take-minakata's body was too huge, so the gods asked him to not come.
Since Kanako is based on Take-minakata, perhaps she was not attending the meeting, even before moving into Gensokyo.
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1) What are the duties of Hakurei Reimu exactly?
Does she perverse a state of balance in Gensokyo and/or to protect human or what?
2) Why do you think youkai in Gensokyo can't kill in a sense the Hakurei shrine maiden (or if you prefer don't dare to kill one)?
3) Do you think youkai in general (mainly Ghost) need to eat in order to survive?
4) What do you think Reimu strongest attack Musou Tensei do exactly? (I'm not talking in spell card battle)
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In a minor game mod I've been working on, I was intending to include the Flower and boxy Shrine Tanks from SoEW as enemies and possibly controllable vehicles. The only problem is, I haven't the lick of sense on the size of either tank. Anybody have any ideas on how I could figure such a thing out?
In SoEW stage 1, Rika's sprite is shown before being replaced by the flower tank.
Of course, the sprites might be larger/smaller than they should be, but it might help.
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1) What are the duties of Hakurei Reimu exactly?
Does she perverse a state of balance in Gensokyo and/or to protect human or what?
She does youkai extermination and incident resolution. Those can be asked for by human villagers, but if something serious happens, she goes out on her own.
2) Why do you think youkai in Gensokyo can't kill in a sense the Hakurei shrine maiden (or if you prefer don't dare to kill one)?
Hakurei shrine maidens are connected to Great Boundary, so if she dies, Gensokyo stops existing. There is no official information whether it would become a part of the real world or just disappear in that case.
3) Do you think youkai in general (mainly Ghost) need to eat in order to survive?
Youkai - yes, though some eat your "spirit" (Kogasa does that by surprising you, for example). Ghosts - probably no.
4) What do you think Reimu strongest attack Musou Tensei do exactly? (I'm not talking in spell card battle)
"Reimu becomes completely impossible to touch. She's in an opaque invisible man state. This seems like Reimu's ultimate mysteries, but it looks like she just closes her eyes; then, the danmaku aims itself and fires towards the enemy automatically. By the way, at the beginning this wasn't a spell card at all, but I changed this into play by giving it the name of a spell card. Otherwise, there's no chance to win." Courtesy of Marisa. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Reimu_Hakurei%27s_Spell_Cards)
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A: Yes, generally youkai don't die from age; they only fade from existence when people no longer believe in them. In Symposium of Post-Mysticism, it is said that in the modern world, new youkai are still being born, because the world is still full of things unknown and uncomprehensible to humans (like "Murphy's law", or losing the TV remote control), but they will immediately disappear, because modern people are unable to affirm their belief in them, and shape them into legends that can be passed down.
You know, in SoPM, in that same chapter, Byakuren muses on how Gensokyo's youkai have actually become free from human's imagination and managed to create their own characteristics (the old ones, anyway, who already had legends about them and then were forgotten by the outside). Is their existence solid enough for them to go live on the outside world again, if they want? I don't remember if it's mentioned in the text and the wiki isn't loading for me since yesterday for some reason (btw extra question, is anyone else having difficulties acessing the wiki?)
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You know, in SoPM, in that same chapter, Byakuren muses on how Gensokyo's youkai have actually become free from human's imagination and managed to create their own characteristics (the old ones, anyway, who already had legends about them and then were forgotten by the outside). Is their existence solid enough for them to go live on the outside world again, if they want? I don't remember if it's mentioned in the text and the wiki isn't loading for me since yesterday for some reason (btw extra question, is anyone else having difficulties acessing the wiki?)
The Barrier itself is the thing that "freed them from the spell of human imagination" so it's doubtful that they'd still be free if they left it. Although it's certainly not impossible for them to live out there, since Sado is apparently home to a large population of Tanuki. Maybe Tanuki are special in some way though, since they achieve their "purpose" by blending in with humanity.
And the wiki works fine for me right now.
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1) What are the duties of Hakurei Reimu exactly?
That's partially right. I thought I once heard that this also extends to Youkai. In general, she just solves problems. I'm not sure if she is obligated to do this though. I assume she just wants to.
2) Why do you think youkai in Gensokyo can't kill in a sense the Hakurei shrine maiden (or if you prefer don't dare to kill one)?
Youkai can't (or rather, don't) kill because of the spell card system, if that's what you're asking. The spell card system doesn't seem to be as simple as something you agree to adhere by.
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Hakurei shrine maidens are connected to Great Boundary, so if she dies, Gensokyo stops existing. There is no official information whether it would become a part of the real world or just disappear in that case.
This is not confirmed in canon, and I personally don't think that's true.
Let me see... I wrote this one year ago.
"In a sense, the Hakurei shrine maiden is the only government of Gensokyo. Not in the sense of 'policy maker', but in the sense of possessing legitimacy, so everyone actually listens to what she says. If any real problems are to happen, humans will listen to her. Supressing youkai with youkai is politically problematic, so the youkai sages would not make such a bad choice unless absolutely necessary. They needs the Hakurei shrine maiden to defeat the troublemakers, too."
Basically, the way the shrine maiden can maintain the peace of Gensokyo is, humans know she can defeat any trouble making youkai, and for the smarter youkai who are actually concerned with the greater good of Gensokyo, it's also much better to let the human shrine maiden do it, rather than creating precedents for "youkai suppressing youkai". Since the youkai worship power, after being defeated, they will change their attitude to respecting the shrine maiden.
One thing has changed about my thinking since then, though: now I believe more likely than not, "youkai sages" are a lie propagated by Yukari.
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It's hard to believe there are many, if any, "youkai sages" given how much of Gensokyo has been fleshed out already. I find it silly that we would not get a glimpse of who they would be, or even just the results of their actions or decisions. It's the only context the term is referenced, so yeah, I'm on that train too.
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Or maybe the youkai "sages" consist of Yukari alone :V
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1) What are the duties of Hakurei Reimu exactly?
Does she perverse a state of balance in Gensokyo and/or to protect human or what?
Solve incidents and do violence/exterminate to youkai.
3) Do you think youkai in general (mainly Ghost) need to eat in order to survive?
Youkai, not sure. Ghosts, probably not. It probably depends on the type of youkai.
4) What do you think Reimu strongest attack Musou Tensei do exactly? (I'm not talking in spell card battle)
Its just an attack with her throwing lots of ofudas and stuff. I imagine it isn't too different from her other attacks, except, stronger and makes it extremely difficult to hurt her.
The Barrier itself is the thing that "freed them from the spell of human imagination" so it's doubtful that they'd still be free if they left it. Although it's certainly not impossible for them to live out there, since Sado is apparently home to a large population of Tanuki. Maybe Tanuki are special in some way though, since they achieve their "purpose" by blending in with humanity.
I don't think it was talking about the Barrier that was doing it. I think it is meant to be the youkai of Gensokyo that was free from that.
@Spell Card Rules:
Spell card system is a set of rules both parties agreed to adhere to. They do not necessarily have to follow it. Youkai can indeed kill Reimu if they decided not to adhere to it.
@Hakurei Barrier: If Reimu were to be defeated, the barrier would likely be in trouble, if not disappear. Here is the source, from Perfect Momento in Strict Sense, Reimu's profile:
The Hakurei shrine maidens control the Great Hakurei Boundary and protect Gensokyo.
If the Great Boundary were destroyed, either from inside or out, Gensokyo would likely not fare well.
Gensokyo relies on the Hakurei Shrine and its shrine maidens to continue to exist as it does today.
As a result, no youkai oppose them.
@Youkai sages: I don't think there are that many youkai sages, but I believe there are more than one. There are several people I can think of that can fall into the category of youkai sages. Tewi, Aya, Yuuka, and depending on your view, Keine.
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Aya
Just real quick on this one. Aya may be powerful but only by virtue of being a Crow Tengu, Hatate is also a Crow Tengu so shouldn't she be fit as well? What about the other crow Tengu that probably exist? Why not just the Tengu chief?
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Well, we don't know what the chief looks like. But yes, it is possible. Aya and not Hatate, because I feel like Hatate isn't old enough. Same deal with how Momiji is not old enough. Aya is at least 1000 years old, so she can fit the bill.
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I think you're defining "sage" too loosely if you only require them to be 1000 years old. I think at the very least they'd need to be a leader of sorts. Aya follows orders from her superior, so it doesn't make much sense to me to think of her as a sage. Tenma almost certainly would be, and maybe Tewi, but I think the main point is that unlike what Yukari seems to want people to think there is no grand youkai conspiracy that all the youkai elders are in on. There are no "youkai sages" who collectively make decisions concerning all of Gensokyo.
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What do you mean, "Yukari wants to think"? She was involved in the creation of the barrier, the pact between underground and aboveground youkai, the spellcard rules, and the vampire contract. These are all things said to have involved "youkai sages", so she knows if they exist or not. Considering that most references to sages comes from PmISS, in which Yukari was involved...
'Sides, like cuc said, youkai workship power. If a youkai wants to become a leader, it just needs to show enough of it. Remember that Yukari herself tried to invade the Moon, which means that, at least once, she managed to unite a number of youkai under a single cause.
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I said "wants people to think", ie: supporting cuc's claim that she's lying about them. She has things she wants, things she does, people she leads or whatever, but she speaks as if she's backed by a group that may not actually exist.
Well, personally I also think she's delusional, but I didn't mention that in the earlier post or in this thread, as far as I know.
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...sorry, I fail at reading comprehension :V
But I'd like to know why you think that, anyway.
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But I'd like to know why you think that, anyway.
Because she seems like the type to favor the "interesting" explanation over the "true" explanation. She also says some weird things like how she can't remember anything over 60 years ago because at that point it becomes "history" (and in this series history is very deliberately used in a "what's written down" sense rather than a "what actually happened" sense). In general, she thinks weird. Alien. Youkai. That doesn't mean she stupid, far from it, but she's also not what I'd call rational either. Irrational logic. I suppose that's the best way to put it. The other side of lacking common sense.
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Ahn, I see. Well, she's explicitly said to be a odd even by youkai standards so that makes sense :V
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Is "Sages" supposed to even be plural? I recall someone saying that the Japanese language sometimes uses the same word for Plural and Singular when this question arose about Vampire and Vampires in the vampire incident. My memory could be off.
If it's not supposed to be plural, then there's really no questions involved since that would mean that it's basically just referring to Yukari whenever it comes up (as Yukari has been referred to as the sage of youkai in Memorizable Gensokyo, and also confirmed to either be one, or THE one if it's not plural, in Subteranean Animism)
If it is supposed to be plural, one of my favorite pet theories is that the other sages included Tewi, Tenma, and maybe Yuuka, but most of them simply didn't care about those particular details and just said "Whatever." whenever Yukari had an idea. That's just one pet theory out of numerable possibilities I can think of though. (note that "favorite" does not mean "theory I think is most likely" in this case)
As for the spell card rules, it's implied (or outright stated. I forget which at the moment) they're under a devil's contract and thus can't be broken. I'm not sure how a contract can apply to an entire area rather than an individual, but it's confirmed (at least under some interpretations of the following statement) that this is possible since the "humans from the village are not for eating under the contract".
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As for the spell card rules, it's implied (or outright stated. I forget which at the moment) they're under a devil's contract and thus can't be broken. I'm not sure how a contract can apply to an entire area rather than an individual, but it's confirmed (at least under some interpretations of the following statement) that this is possible since the "humans from the village are not for eating under the contract".
Where does that statement come from.
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IS it the correct place to ask for "touhou song title" or do I have to go to another section of the site? :wat:
Also does anyone know why Oni (e.g Suika & Yuugi) have chains along there arm and feet? (or if you prefer what could be the significant of those chains)
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Where does that statement come from.
Cage in Lunatic Runagate
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Fifth_Chapter
"Humans from the town are generally not for their eating under the contract. "
...annoyingly perhaps the only other time besides Perfect Memento where the contract is actually brought up, if I recall correctly (well, better than it not being brought up anywhere else at all, I suppose).
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IS it the correct place to ask for "touhou song title" or do I have to go to another section of the site? :wat:
Also does anyone know why Oni (e.g Suika & Yuugi) have chains along there arm and feet? (or if you prefer what could be the significant of those chains)
I don't believe there's any particular canon significance to the chains, but it certainly seems to mark oni, since Kasen also has one on her good arm. The obvious implication to me is that they were all chained up at some point and broke free by tearing the chains, but for all I know it could just be considered fashionable among oni.
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The word that was translated to 'contract' in the Fifth Chapter in Cage of Lunatic is 約束.
It isn't the same word as used in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense.
Not very likely, but it might be two different things.
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It's more like "promised", but I don't think there's any reason to think it's anything different just because it doesn't use exactly the same language.
Is "Sages" supposed to even be plural?
It says 地上の賢者達 in Subterranean Animism and 妖怪の賢者達 in PMiSS' Dragon article; 達 being an explicit pluralizing suffix. It's just 妖怪の賢者 in Akyuu's monologue, and somewhere else, but Akyuu doesn't say anything that would be isolated to a single person. The fact that they don't actually talk about a specific entity in the first place (or saying something like "that sage", which ZUN likes to do) alludes to it being a group.
annoyingly perhaps the only other time besides Perfect Memento where the contract is actually brought up, if I recall correctly (well, better than it not being brought up anywhere else at all, I suppose).
Yukari's talk with Kasen in WaHH implicitly confirms that the youkai don't eat the humans one would expect them to eat.
Speaking of which, that talk does a funny thing with Yukari saying "Humans don't need to know the answer to that. Neither do hermits. ...But I'll tell you." Funny Yukari.
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But this "promise" isn't the spell card rules - it should be the Great Barrier's founding principle, in effect since Gensokyo Year 0.
PMiSS actually heavily implied, because a series of rules that forbid any real fighting, youkai began losing their willpower, and the spell card rules is a SOLUTION to this problem, by allowing non-lethal youkai vs. youkai and youkai vs. human fighting.
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As for the spell card rules, it's implied (or outright stated. I forget which at the moment) they're under a devil's contract and thus can't be broken. I'm not sure how a contract can apply to an entire area rather than an individual, but it's confirmed (at least under some interpretations of the following statement) that this is possible since the "humans from the village are not for eating under the contract".
I don't believe this is ever implied or stated. In fact, we know this is something youkai do not necessarily have to follow. Take Silent Sinner in Blue for instance, Marisa gave a brief description of spell card rules and Yorihime was playing with the rules. That is pretty much all.
This is also why Marisa is kind of iffy about some of Suika's cards, because Marisa doesn't believe they are spell cards.
This is mentioned here, http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Suika_Ibuki%27s_Spell_Cards.
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I'd expect Yorihime to be an exception to the spell card rules since the moon isn't part of Gensokyo. Although, I suppose Old Hell isn't either and Okuu seemed pretty convinced that the surface had to be invaded.
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The "Promise" is just an example of how a devil's contract can apply to an entire area, not individuals (under some interpretations of the statement). IE, everyone in Gensokyo would be bound by Gensokyo's contracts (of which there is the village contract, and of which there is maybe the spell card contract if that's a contract) whether they individually agreed to the contract or not (again, under only some interpretations of the statement). It is not the spell card rules themselves, which, if the spell card rules are hypothetically a contract, would possibly/probably be a separate contract..
The spell card rules could be taken as implied to be under a devil's contract because PMiSS points out the original draft was written on youkai contract paper.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules
"the original draft is written on the same paper used for youkai's contracts. "
Of course, this is just an implication rather than proof because it basically assumes "youkai contract" = "devil's contract". An assumption which IMHO is logical enough but definately not something that can be stated for sure.
And I wouldn't really take Yorihime as a good example. She's not from Gensokyo nor was the battle in Gensokyo.
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To be honest the leap from "paper used for youkai's contracts" to "devil's contract" seems a pretty big one to take. All the type of paper used "implies" is that someone used youkai contract-making paper to make the contract; we can't even be certain a youkai wrote it.
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To be honest the leap from "paper used for youkai's contracts" to "devil's contract" seems a pretty big one to take. All the type of paper used "implies" is that someone used youkai contract-making paper to make the contract; we can't even be certain a youkai wrote it.
It's the law of the conservation of detail. "Paper used to make youkai contracts" isn't something most authors would bother bringing up if youkai contracts weren't involved somehow.
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The details were given to show that some youkai could have proposed the rule to the shrine maiden.
The Stage 3 dialogue of th11 uses this word too, and it's quite sure nothing supernatural is forcing them to keep the promise.
I always thought any youkai who eats humans from the Human Village would be severely punished, and that's how the promise is kept.
(I currently have nothing to back this up.)
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It's the law of the conservation of detail. "Paper used to make youkai contracts" isn't something most authors would bother bringing up if youkai contracts weren't involved somehow.
Well yeah, I think it's easy to imply this was a contract written by a youkai (according to a most unreliable narrator, anyway; I think the Spell Card Rules benefit humans more than youkai, but that's totally off topic), but a devil's contract? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by this. I don't see the connection. Can you explain it more?
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Well yeah, I think it's easy to imply this was a contract written by a youkai (according to a most unreliable narrator, anyway; I think the Spell Card Rules benefit humans more than youkai, but that's totally off topic), but a devil's contract? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by this. I don't see the connection. Can you explain it more?
Ah, I see what you're asking now. Well, in this case, what I mean is that as far as I know, "youkai contract" (probably) = "devil contract" based on how there probably aren't many other types of youkai contracts (a "youkai contract" presumably being something mystical and fantastical in nature, not just some run of the mill paper legal document that any ol' human could produce on normal paper). Because all devils are youkai, one could simply use "youkai contract" interchangeably with "devil contract". Sure, all youkai aren't devils, but the amount of youkai that actually do have contracts (authentic mystical contracts that have their own type of presumably mystical paper) in their repertoire of things they do that aren't devils is low enough that one wouldn't always have to make the differentiation.
Not that I have much knowledge of Japanese myths and youkai. Maybe the concept of tanuki contracts exist and it's one of those. Or maybe there is an umbrella concept of youkai contracts different from devil contracts which... does.... something that makes it worthy as being a notably different thing than human contracts and having its own paper. *shrug*
The details were given to show that some youkai could have proposed the rule to the shrine maiden.
The Stage 3 dialogue of th11 uses this word too, and it's quite sure nothing supernatural is forcing them to keep the promise.
I always thought any youkai who eats humans from the Human Village would be severely punished, and that's how the promise is kept.
(I currently have nothing to back this up.)
Which stage 3 dialogue uses that word? And er.... which word? (honest questions. As shown slightly earlier in this thread, these things happen when one translates from one language to another, alas)
Personally I always thought that having spell card rules being under a magical contract that binds the entire area was a convenient way to explain how ridiculously independent or chaotic or just plain baka youkai and fairies, new completely destructive youkai like Medicine Melancholy, or newcomers who otherwise wouldn't be aware of the rules ((such as... well, almost every major antagonist and their relations from the past 6 games or so, unless they like... found out about the rules off-screen or something) instinctively or whatever-else know to follow them. Meanwhile someone outside of Gensokyo being fought outside of Gensokyo (such as Yorihime) wouldn't know and would have to voluntarily follow the rules.
The idea of a bunch of youkai enforcers going around giving the beatdown to anyone who doesn't follow the spell card rules is cool and hilarious, but not really very youkai-like. The only one I can really imagine agreeing to do such a thing is Yukari herself (also cool and hilarious to imagine), but she's too lazy for such a thing (maybe she sicks Ran on people? Release the hounds! ...also cool and hilarious but hard for me to swallow). Oh, and Tengu (wolf tengu, specifically. Release the hounds!) but I doubt they'd want to get involved with policing anything outside of their own society.
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The idea of a bunch of youkai enforcers going around giving the beatdown to anyone who doesn't follow the spell card rules is cool and hilarious, but not really very youkai-like. The only one I can really imagine agreeing to do such a thing is Yukari herself (also cool and hilarious to imagine), but she's too lazy for such a thing (maybe she sicks Ran on people? Release the hounds! ...also cool and hilarious but hard for me to swallow). Oh, and Tengu (wolf tengu, specifically. Release the hounds!) but I doubt they'd want to get involved with policing anything outside of their own society.
I'd say that in such cases that would be done by human youkai exterminators, be it Reimu, Marisa or a group from the village. Like in OSP chapter 16, when a wolf turning youkai killed a few humans, and Reimu was pretty intent on putting it down for good.
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I have troubles with "devil's contract" (悪魔の契約) because the PMiSS Vampire article is, as far as I can tell, literally the only time the term ever appears. The fact that there has to be the distinction between it and any other contract, that the "devil's contract" [alone] is absolute and can never be broken, is itself really odd. Is there something inherent about the case of vampires attacking humans that requires such a binding contract, whereas everything else talked about as a contract/deal/etc is not as important? It doesn't make sense to make a special note for Remilia simply because she's a vampire, either. Are the vampires for whatever reason not able to keep the "usual" sort of contract? I wouldn't assume so, so there doesn't seem to be a need for there to be anything special about this case.
Furthermore, the fact that they need to take the extra step in the first place is questionable. If the youkai in general weren't able to attack humans since the formation of the Barrier, and this is why "their willpower faded" and so on, we'd still have to assume that they got food "elsewhere" as they currently do. This being the case, why would Remilia have to agree to a contract that is basically the same as what all the other youkai adhere to, but is still something "different" because it's a "devil's contract"? It should be evident that even newcomers have to adhere to the general no-eating-humans rule, so why this is mentioned specifically in regard to the Vampire Incident is unclear.
The main solution I see here is that the "devil's contract" is just an over-explanation of the rules that were already in place and known about, and Remilia just had to explicitly agree to it. Whether this is a special case or that all youkai have to explicitly agree is another matter, but the conclusion here would be that this devil's contract isn't anything out of the ordinary, and this sort of all-binding contract is the same for everyone.
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There is one law in the spell card rule which I don't really understand.
1) "Relying on stamina" and repeating an attack is not allowed.
What does this mean "relying on stamina" is not allowed? (still confuse about that one)
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Which stage 3 dialogue uses that word? And er.... which word? (honest questions. As shown slightly earlier in this thread, these things happen when one translates from one language to another, alas)
Oops, my bad. In Reimu/Yukari's scenario.
Yukari uses the word 約束(which was translated to promise in the translations) when talking about the deal between the surface and the underground.
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Netherlands
lol
- "Relying on stamina" and repeating an attack is not allowed.
What does this mean "relying on stamina" is not allowed?
It isn't relying on stamina, it's relying on physical strength and simply wailing on the opponent. refer to below
It seems Aquamarine made massive edits to the translation of the wiki page, and I seriously do not agree with these changes.
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The "contract" topic:
Here's another translation omission. The original text is 妖怪同士の契約書, "contract between youkai".
I'd say it's explicitly got nothing to do with "devil's contract"; instead it's based on the idea of an imaginary youkai society.
lol
It isn't relying on stamina, it's relying on physical strength and simply wailing on the opponent.
Actually aquamarine is right, and you are wrong. The only problem is with the wording.
This is the second sentence of a clause about "announcing your number of rounds beforehand", i.e. the number of lifebars for bosses, and number of lives for players. Its real message is intended to be "you can only fight your pre-announced rounds; you can't keep attacking if the rounds run out, even if you still have physical strength left."
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I completely missed that it was part of the previous term. Reading through the passage in my copy makes it much clearer. I'm sure many others have made this mistake too; this should be made a bit clearer in the transcription, I think.
That being resolved, I also don't like the term "naming duel" and partially "duel" even though that's a more literally accurate translation of 命名決闘. We do use duel for 決闘 in all other cases I'm aware of, and I acknowledge using the term to introduce the concept of a spell card is a formality, but it still reads really awkwardly, what with things like "giving a name to the duel" and "if you are defeated in a naming duel".
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Yes, the phrase 命名決闘 is the temporary (and explanatory) name of the concept, later christened "spell card". It's a duel that has been given a name. I don't think the word "duel" here is used in the correct way, even in Japanese.
"Denominated duel"?
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"Named" would roll off the tongue better.
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It's the law of the conservation of detail. "Paper used to make youkai contracts" isn't something most authors would bother bringing up if youkai contracts weren't involved somehow.
How is that relevant though? Spell card rules is assumed to not be the original draft. I do not think the shrine maiden was involved in the original draft.
And I wouldn't really take Yorihime as a good example. She's not from Gensokyo nor was the battle in Gensokyo.
Then, lets use Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dolls_in_Pseudo_Paradise/Story#.2301_2) as an example, where a youkai, killed 7 honest men(thieves).
Or just generally, the Youkai Article (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Youkai) in PMiSS.
However, the reason most youkai attack humans is because they need prey.
That's why one should offer something else to eat in place of themselves.
Offering a cow will save you from being attacked for a while.
There are many that have a strong sense of duty, and will befriend those who do not turn against them.
Personally I always thought that having spell card rules being under a magical contract that binds the entire area was a convenient way to explain how ridiculously independent or chaotic or just plain baka youkai and fairies, new completely destructive youkai like Medicine Melancholy, or newcomers who otherwise wouldn't be aware of the rules ((such as... well, almost every major antagonist and their relations from the past 6 games or so, unless they like... found out about the rules off-screen or something) instinctively or whatever-else know to follow them. Meanwhile someone outside of Gensokyo being fought outside of Gensokyo (such as Yorihime) wouldn't know and would have to voluntarily follow the rules.
I don't see how that is the case, as youkai are able to not play by spell card rules. I have mentioned on my example from Marisa's Grimoire. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Suika_Ibuki%27s_Spell_Cards) What Suika does is not a spell card.
Oni Sign "Complete Massacre on Mt.Ooe"
She catches and throws you, usually when she's drunk at parties.
This isn't danmaku either, and it really hurts.
Is there something inherent about the case of vampires attacking humans that requires such a binding contract, whereas everything else talked about as a contract/deal/etc is not as important? It doesn't make sense to make a special note for Remilia simply because she's a vampire, either. Are the vampires for whatever reason not able to keep the "usual" sort of contract? I wouldn't assume so, so there doesn't seem to be a need for there to be anything special about this case.
This article here elaborates on it. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Vampire. Vampires are, by contract, forbidden to attack humans living in Gensokyo.
The article on Youkai mentions no such restriction.
The details of this contract are that the youkai will offer them humans from which to feed (*3); in return, the vampires will not attack humans living in Gensokyo.
3: It is said these are humans from the outside world or those whose deaths are of no consequence (suicidal, etc.).
It should be evident that even newcomers have to adhere to the general no-eating-humans rule, so why this is mentioned specifically in regard to the Vampire Incident is unclear.
The spell card rule is something that I do not think anyone has to adhere to. As mentioned in Akyuu's monologue (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Monologue), if youkai in Gensokyou are too weak, bad things will happen.
That flaw was that the youkai's inability to attack humans began to weaken their powers.
That meant that if a new and powerful youkai ever ceased to exist in the outside and passed into Gensokyo, the denizens would be unable to resist if it decided to subjugate them.
Overall, the way I see spell card rules is that it is a rule where youkai adhere to. However, it is not binding and they are not forced to adhere to it.
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Then, lets use Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dolls_in_Pseudo_Paradise/Story#.2301_2) as an example, where a youkai, killed 7 honest men(thieves).
Or just generally, the Youkai Article (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Youkai) in PMiSS.
However, the reason most youkai attack humans is because they need prey.
That's why one should offer something else to eat in place of themselves.
Offering a cow will save you from being attacked for a while.
There are many that have a strong sense of duty, and will befriend those who do not turn against them.
DiPP is usually considered "just a story" (as in, possibly not "just a story", but it's formulated as such and doesn't seem to be strongly connected to anything else), and that excerpt from the Youkai article is basically just what Akyuu recalls from all of her previous incarnations, which Akyuu admits herself isn't all that necessary anymore. It's correct, but actually attacking the humans is no longer relevant.
I don't see how that is the case, as youkai are able to not play by spell card rules. I have mentioned on my example from Marisa's Grimoire. (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/The_Grimoire_of_Marisa/Suika_Ibuki%27s_Spell_Cards) What Suika does is not a spell card.
Oni Sign "Complete Massacre on Mt.Ooe"
She catches and throws you, usually when she's drunk at parties.
This isn't danmaku either, and it really hurts.
While the attacks she used aren't very danmaku-like, they're still spell cards formed under the same rules. Marisa just doesn't find them very representative of what danmaku is supposed to mean. It gives valuable insight on what is in-universe actually considered an "unfair" attack.
This article here elaborates on it. http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Vampire. Vampires are, by contract, forbidden to attack humans living in Gensokyo.
The article on Youkai mentions no such restriction.
The details of this contract are that the youkai will offer them humans from which to feed (*3); in return, the vampires will not attack humans living in Gensokyo.
3: It is said these are humans from the outside world or those whose deaths are of no consequence (suicidal, etc.).
First of all, while it is obviously implied the vampires are the subject of the contract, it doesn't actually say "the vampires" will not attack humans; just that in exchange for proper humans as food, "they" (rather, whoever the implied subject of the contract is) will not attack the indigenous humans. I think you missed the point of what I'm saying, which is that this is exactly the same rule as all of the other youkai, and this has been going on since the Barrier was formed. The only difference is that it's explicitly mentioned as a contract in this case, which is what I find curious. It doesn't make much sense to establish that there is a devil's contract that is absolutely binding when it has no real bearing on the matter at all.
The spell card rule is something that I do not think anyone has to adhere to. As mentioned in Akyuu's monologue (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Monologue), if youkai in Gensokyou are too weak, bad things will happen.
That flaw was that the youkai's inability to attack humans began to weaken their powers.
That meant that if a new and powerful youkai ever ceased to exist in the outside and passed into Gensokyo, the denizens would be unable to resist if it decided to subjugate them.
It's that the current youkai, then weakened, wouldn't be able to stand up to the new oppressor, and Gensokyo could end up being dominated. Not humans. Since this is talking about battles among the youkai, it isn't really discussing the inability to eat Gensokyo's humans or following the spell card rules. The spell card rules being absolute or not has nothing to do with what the problem was before the spell card rules, anyway. It's because of the rules that said problem is now fixed.
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Hrm... well, this whole fiasco is what I meant when I said "It's annoying how the only time the contract was ever brought up anywhere else was in Cage in Lunatic Runagate". What I meant was that it was annoying because you'd think such a huge concept (devil contracts) could almost be as fundamental to Gensokyo as physics is only brought up/confirmed again in one source. But if even Cage in Lunatic Runagate doesn't use the same contractual word-age as PMiSS, that just.... makes it even more annoying, I suppose.
I guess at this point the only path one could take to figure out if the contract (....both of them, if the spell card one even exists) applies to all youkai is to gather regular examples/evidence, but even that probably won't confirm or unconfirm anything (I'm not sure that wolf turning into a youkai would apply, since we don't know if contract applies to animals that are on the brink of becoming a youkai). Bah.
I still think it makes more sense for it to apply to all youkai (...both of them) rather than youkai just voluntarily following the rules. Binding youkai to follow something through some magical source seems more plausible to me considering the sheer chaotic nature of youkai (and again would explain several other things rather conveniently). But that's an opinion rather than anything that can be factually proven (the exact nature of youkai could be exaggerated, for one thing).
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I have posted some questions above but after all those talk about whether the contract and spell card, it seems nobody have noticed them so I will re-post them here.
There is one law in the spell card rule which I don't really understand.
2) Does the spell card rule battle necessary applies also to the residents of "hell, heaven and/or even Netherworld" or only to the residents of Gensokyo?
Let suppose their a fight between the residents in either of those 3 places (hell, heaven, Netherworld), do you think they have to follow the spell card rule or can they fight normally?
- Suppose Marisa Kirisame was to have a fight with someone in hell (e.g Utsuho Reiuji) or in heaven (e.g, Tenshi Hinanawi). Would the spell card rule still apply or not?
3) Also from what I had understood you can only use one spell card once in a duel/fight, isn't?
4) From what I read, even before the creation of the Gensokyo, youkai already exist. But there something which I don't quite understand.
Since youkai are suppose to be immortal in a sense and thus cannot die from old age.
- Does that mean they don't have a lifespan to begin with?
Since I'm not too familiar with Japanese folktales I may have miss something but let say Vampire and other youkai are considered as some sort of immortal creatures (cannot die from aging).
- What about "European dragons" those lifespan generally range from let say 250 - 500 years and even more according to some sites?
- Can they also be consider as youkai?
- If they (European Dragons) can be classified as youkai, what about the lifespan thing?
- Does being a youkai make you immortal (cannot die from aging) or does becoming a youkai and residing in Gensokyo make you one??
- Finally do you think if an let say European dragon was to live in gensokyo, will he/she become immortal?
Can anyone help me with those questions, please.
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There is one law in the spell card rule which I don't really understand.
1) "Relying on stamina" and repeating an attack is not allowed.
What does this mean "relying on stamina" is not allowed? ( Am still confused about this one. Can anyone provide an example.)
Can anyone help me with those questions, please.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Draft_of_Spell_Card_Rules)
The spellcard rules say, that battles must not be completely based on power alone, so that weak humans/youkai could still win.
If everyone just tried to survive, the strong would be able to easily defeat the weak, which would be a somewhat unfair battle system i.e.:
Yukari fights with Rumia. While both are able to defend themselves, Yukari would always win because her stamina is higher.
2) Does the spell card rule battle necessary applies also to the residents of "hell, heaven and/or even Netherlands" or only to the residents of Gensokyo?
I don't really understand what you mean with hell, heaven and Netherlands.
Hell and heaven are for the dead; those that reside in there have yet to make an appearance so we don't now.
If with Netherlands you mean the underground, Palace of the Earth Spirits, etc. they do use spellcards, so the rules do seem to apply to them.
3) Also from what I had understood you can only use one spell card once in a duel/fight, isn't?
You said so yourself in the first question.
4) From what I read, even before the creation of the Gensokyo, youkai already exist. But there something which I don't quite understand.
Since youkai are suppose to be immortal in a sense and thus cannot die from old age.
- Does that mean they don't have a lifespan to begin with?
Since I'm not too familiar with Japanese folktales I may have miss something but let say Vampire and other youkai are considered as some sort of immortal creatures (cannot die from aging).
- What about "European dragons" those lifespan generally range from let say 250 - 500 years and even more according to some sites?
- Can they also be consider as youkai?
- If they (European Dragons) can be classified as youkai, what about the lifespan thing?
- Does being a youkai make you immortal (cannot die from aging) or does becoming a youkai and residing in Gensokyo make you one??
- Finally do you think if an let say European dragon was to live in gensokyo, will he/she become immortal?
Most youkai do seem to be biologically immortal, so they can die from injury, just not from old age.
These "European Dragons" are somewhat vague, since there are so many stories about them. In some stories they are immortal, and in some they are not.
Since youkai simply means something like supernatural creature, they would probably indeed be classified as youkai, and they might become immortal if they already weren't.
Youkai always existed, however, if humans forgot about them, they would disappear. This is one of the reasons Gensokyo was made. Because people in the outside world didn't believe in youkai anymore, they stopped existing everywhere except for Gensokyo.(Where there still were humans that believed in them.)
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Hmm...Didn't Eiki say to Yuuka in POFV about "You have lived a bit too long"? Wouldn't that imply that youkai do in fact have a lifespan? Maybe it's different for each youkai?
And somewhere (WaHH I think) Reimu said that Gensokyo youkai don't really need beliefs to exist.
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Hmm...Didn't Eiki say to Yuuka in POFV about "You have lived a bit too long"? Wouldn't that imply that youkai do in fact have a lifespan? Maybe it's different for each youkai?
Eh, dunno if Eiki is that trustworthy. She probably exaggerates her sermons so that people will listen to her. I think she probably meant that in the sense of "someone should've exterminated you already" or something.
And somewhere (WaHH I think) Reimu said that Gensokyo youkai don't really need beliefs to exist.
Going by what Byakuren said in SoPM, Gensokyo's youkai don't need belief to shape their existence anymore (for instance, regardless of what humans think the tengu should be [monks, ninjas, whatever], they won't change to fit that view), but at the end of the day, they still need to fullfill their purpose and make humans fear them, or else they'll become weak (and eventually die, I suppose).
Youkai always existed, however, if humans forgot about them, they would disappear. This is one of the reasons Gensokyo was made. Because people in the outside world didn't believe in youkai anymore, they stopped existing everywhere except for Gensokyo.(Where there still were humans that believed in them.)
Monsters aren't completely dead in the outside world (hobgoblins, chupacabras and tanukis, were all shown to still exist there), probably because there's always someone to believe in them.
I'm beggining to think that Gensokyo's true purpose is to eventually completely free youkai from humanity's imagination, turning them into real beings, while also being a good way to keep some of them safe just in case humans completely eradicate the belief in the supernatural in the outside world. But eh, I don't have much to back that other than Byakuren's lines on SoPM, which don't really imply that.
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On the topic of youkai sages, I'd say the Three Great Evil Youkai would be good candidates, two of whom would correspond to Suika and possibly Tenma.
I'm beggining to think that Gensokyo's true purpose is to eventually completely free youkai from humanity's imagination, turning them into real beings, while also being a good way to keep some of them safe just in case humans completely eradicate the belief in the supernatural in the outside world. But eh, I don't have much to back that other than Byakuren's lines on SoPM, which don't really imply that.
There are cases of younger youkai being noted as less "youkai-ish" than older ones. See Aya and Hatate.
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Isn't Aya... old? Or do you mean Aya compared to Hatate? (though I forget if it was stated if Hatate was younger/newer or not. My memory vaguely recalls something implying she was but...)
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On the topic of youkai sages, I'd say the Three Great Evil Youkai would be good candidates, two of whom would correspond to Suika and possibly Tenma.
The last one is Ran, isn't it?
Isn't Aya... old? Or do you mean Aya compared to Hatate? (though I forget if it was stated if Hatate was younger/newer or not. My memory vaguely recalls something implying she was but...)
Aya is over a thousand years old, but due to age inflation that's no longer particularly impressive. Every last one of Byakuren's and Miko's respective entourages is over a thousand years old, for example.
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The last one is Ran, isn't it?
If Ran is Tamame-no-Mae then that would be gross cheating on Yukari's part, effectively giving her twice as many votes and letting her dominate the council.
So... pretty in-character then. Honestly I kinda prefer Ran just being a random nine-tails though; it's not like that isn't impressive in itself.
I do like the idea of Yukari being granted audience with some giant shadowy figures when she's trying to build up her powerbase - two of them try to project an aura of mystique, while the third has visible Suika-horns and keeps goofing off.
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Hi everybody,
I have been wondering for a real long time.
But in every doujin work and also between touhou fans, Murasa Minamitsu (LastName, FirstName) is always called by her last name "Murasa".
I checked the wiki and also the name in-game, and it both says that Minamitsu is her first name.
So why is everyone calling her Murasa, instead of Minamitsu?
PS: I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum, but since there is no forum for general discussion of the touhou universe, I put it here in the doujin-sector.
Since we and the doujins all call her Murasa.
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Minamitsu is her first name, but as captain everyone calls her Captain Murasa, or ムラサ船長. In becoming a youkai, she was also called Murasa, based on her human name before she died. The music comments make note of this interesting bit too:
しかしみんなムラサって呼ぶけど、ムラサのは妖怪の名前なので 実は名前で呼ばれていないというオチが。
"Even though everyone calls her Murasa, 'murasa' is the name of a youkai, so surprise, they really aren't calling her by her name."
That is, "Murasa" (村紗) is her family name, but "murasa" (ムラサ) is the actual name of a ship phantom.
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In terms of the fandom, I think the strongest reason is simply that her theme song is titled "Captain Murasa". In-universe, everyone always calls Byakuren "Hijiri" but that seems to have made no difference whatsoever to the fandom.
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And somewhere (WaHH I think) Reimu said that Gensokyo youkai don't really need beliefs to exist.
Going by what Byakuren said in SoPM, Gensokyo's youkai don't need belief to shape their existence anymore (for instance, regardless of what humans think the tengu should be [monks, ninjas, whatever], they won't change to fit that view), but at the end of the day, they still need to fullfill their purpose and make humans fear them, or else they'll become weak (and eventually die, I suppose).
In the outside world, a youkai's existence is determined purely by humans believing in them. From a completely meta perspective, the youkai don't really exist, they're just the supernatural things that humans attribute weird happenings to, or make up stories about. In Gensokyo, they have crossed the boundary from fiction into reality, where they actually exist in a tangible form. So it would be apt to say they don't need belief from humans to shape or define their existence. However, the reason for that youkai being created in the first place is because the humans gave it some purpose, some void to fill. That youkai, to remain a youkai, needs to fill that purpose by keeping up its influence on its surroundings. Otherwise, they might as well not even exist, because their entire existence is literally that purpose. It's been shown that youkai don't necessarily need to adhere to their original purpose, because again, unlike the outside world they actually have a body and a sense of self, so they can go do whatever they feel gives them purpose in life. This whole principle is the basis of why youkai need to attack humans, why these youkai have a theoretically infinite lifespan, why they can survive massive physical damage but are harmed by "spiritual" damage, why they don't die and enter the cycle of reincarnation as other beings do, and so on.
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why they don't die and enter the cycle of reincarnation as other beings do, and so on.
I'm pretty sure they're still part of the cycle of reincarnation. Otherwise, why in the world would Eiki bother lecturing them at all? In most Biddhist beliefs, youkai are considered merely a lower rung on wheel.
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She might just lecture them about faltering in their purpose as a youkai, or otherwise that they aren't doing their job, whatever it may be.
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But her goal is to save souls by letting them take action top prevent themselves from ending up in Hell. What does it matter to her if a few youkai lose their purpose or disappear? There's nothing wrong with that, from a moral perspective.
Edit: Oh yeah, SoPM also contains a line about how most youkai don't mind the thought of becoming vengeful spirits in Hell.
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Also, Eiki says this to Cirno (emphasis mine):
"At this rate, you will not be able to return to your original power of nature and you may receive damage. In other words, that means death. If you die, then we will most definitely judge you. At that time, whether you will go to heaven or hell... Well, we don't know that yet."
I know that fairies aren't exatcly the same thing as youkai, but their existence is probably similar (as in, need human beleif to manifest). If a fairy that suffers a permanent death is judged by a Yama, as Eiki implies, then I don't see why a youkai wouldn't.
In the outside world, a youkai's existence is determined purely by humans believing in them. From a completely meta perspective, the youkai don't really exist, they're just the supernatural things that humans attribute weird happenings to, or make up stories about. In Gensokyo, they have crossed the boundary from fiction into reality, where they actually exist in a tangible form.
...would that mean then that Mamizou, the hobgoblins and the chupacabra only gained a definitive body upon entering Gensokyo?
What happens to youkai that leave Gensokyo, anyway? Yukari does it all the time and doesn't seem to be affected. Nue had to leave to go call Mamizou, and didn't seem worse to wear.
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According to Mamizou, there's a whole population of tanuki living in Sado by blending in with the humans (and their own part-human descendants). She didn't seem to be just a figment or anything.
The simplest answer is that the Outside World hasn't completely run out of belief yet. There's nothing so hard and fast about Gensokyo's barrier that's absolutely necessary to keep them all alive inside it. Outside, they'd be weakened and gradually disappear, but they can still live. They're endangered, not extinct.
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...would that mean then that Mamizou, the hobgoblins and the chupacabra only gained a definitive body upon entering Gensokyo?
What happens to youkai that leave Gensokyo, anyway? Yukari does it all the time and doesn't seem to be affected. Nue had to leave to go call Mamizou, and didn't seem worse to wear.
It's a tricky ambiguous thing to talk about so I tried to clarify, but guess it wasn't clear enough. How about this.
The youkai don't exist in the real world, as in actually our world in reality, not the "outside world" of the Touhou universe. The "outside world" in the Touhou universe is meant to model our real world, but with underlying extra bits that help form the context of the Touhou universe. Namely, that the youkai actually "exist" because we think them up. We would never be able to realistically prove that the youkai do "exist", since the youkai "exist" entirely because of phenomena we aren't able to explain, or because they're beings that we can't find or demonstrate. So in the context of the Touhou universe, Mamizou actually existed in the outside world (because people still might believe in tanuki) and was living among humans, but she had the excuse of being able to blend in or otherwise hide. Hobgoblins and the chupacabra "exist" in the outside world because people may still believe they exist despite them never being properly demonstrated to exist, and because of that, Yukari/Remilia were able to retrieve them by whatever means.
In-universe, they can continue to exist only because there are people believing in them. In reality, once people reject them as possibly existing, that's it: they have rejected the possibility of them existing. In-universe, this is why the Barrier was formed, so that youkai can move into Gensokyo to escape their dependency. When I say that they've crossed the boundary between fiction and reality, it means that they've moved from their existential dependency on humans, to a state where they actually, physically exist in a world. But in-universe, they still did "physically exist" on the outside, they just were in danger of being wiped out entirely "somehow" by the waning belief of humans. It also means that whatever form and purpose and other attributes that they were believed to have, by people in reality, would now at least somewhat dictate what they exist as, in Gensokyo. Like how stories of a certain youkai would change over time in reality; the youkai's form in the outside world would suit however people viewed it as. But in-universe, once they're in Gensokyo, you could say that they always had their current form, despite the fact that it almost definitely had changed previously throughout history. It's like the outside world is totally reality, but it really isn't if you look from reality, but if you look through the lens of Gensokyo it totally is. Derp.
It's all absurdly meta, and plays with and blurs the lines between reality and fiction. It pretends it is reality, by using models of reality that actually reflect reality, but fills in the blanks that the story requires just by the nature of how people think about the things you're writing the story about. This is why the meta-discussions of Touhou's inner workings are always so difficult to explain, but why I find them so unbelievably delicious.
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DiPP is usually considered "just a story" (as in, possibly not "just a story", but it's formulated as such and doesn't seem to be strongly connected to anything else)
Like all stories, it is assumed to be canon. What happens in it is assumed to have happened in the Touhou universe.
This would also include the first story, where you see excerpts of events.
and that excerpt from the Youkai article is basically just what Akyuu recalls from all of her previous incarnations, which Akyuu admits herself isn't all that necessary anymore. It's correct, but actually attacking the humans is no longer relevant.
There is no indication that it is something she recalls from previous incarnations. This is the most recent publication of PMiSS, so all information here is assumed to be up to date.
Unless you are to tell me that there is something in the Youkai article that somehow mentions it being outdated. I know, for instance, something that is dated, gets their date mentioned, like Maribel's paper, or Aya's newspaper.
First of all, while it is obviously implied the vampires are the subject of the contract, it doesn't actually say "the vampires" will not attack humans; just that in exchange for proper humans as food, "they" (rather, whoever the implied subject of the contract is) will not attack the indigenous humans.
You can't just assume "they" as a reference to anyone else but vampires. That doesn't make sense and seems to be out of context.
Those as powerful as vampires are usually forbidden to directly assault humans.
They are forbidden to assault humans.
I think you missed the point of what I'm saying, which is that this is exactly the same rule as all of the other youkai, and this has been going on since the Barrier was formed.
I understand your point, what I am trying to say is there is a difference. The vampires is contractually obligated to do this, under the devil's contract, which cannot be broken.
Youkai, on the other hand, just have a law that they follow. They are not contractually obligated to do this, there is nothing magically binding them to do this.
They follow it because if they do not, their livelihoods are directly affected. This is because if Youkai kill humans, the balance in Gensokyo will crumble and youkai will be endangered, which destroys the purpose of the barrier.
Because of this, Youkai lose their will to fight, since they cannot attack humans, what can they do, what is their purpose? This is why spell card rules are created.
However, like the law they have when Gensokyo is created, spell card rules is also not something that is magically binding. This is why in the rules themselves, it says to not kill humans after beating them. Nothing is magically binding them to do this, but since this is a law that youkai agreed to, they follow it.
It's that the current youkai, then weakened, wouldn't be able to stand up to the new oppressor, and Gensokyo could end up being dominated. Not humans.
Denizens imply it includes everyone in Gensokyo. I see no reason why the new youkai would feel the need to follow its rules.
I still think it makes more sense for it to apply to all youkai (...both of them) rather than youkai just voluntarily following the rules.
I disagree.
Eh, dunno if Eiki is that trustworthy. She probably exaggerates her sermons so that people will listen to her. I think she probably meant that in the sense of "someone should've exterminated you already" or something.
As far as I can tell, Youkai are not immortal. They have a life span, it is just that it is longer than a humans. Oni, Tengu, and the like all have a life span. I don't quite know if this applies to all youkai types, it may just be specific to some youkai types.
If Ran is Tamame-no-Mae then that would be gross cheating on Yukari's part, effectively giving her twice as many votes and letting her dominate the council.
Nothing wrong with cheating.
Ran is most likely Tamame-no-Mae.
@Youkai from outside world:
Yeah, Youkai from outside world are just endangered, not extinct.
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It's a tricky ambiguous thing to talk about so I tried to clarify, but guess it wasn't clear enough. How about this.
-snip-
Ah, now I understand what you meant. I was mostly confused because I hadn't distinguished the "meta" part from the "in-universe" part. Thanks for elaborating.
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Quote: As far as I can tell, Youkai are not immortal. They have a life span, it is just that it is longer than a humans. Oni, Tengu, and the like all have a life span. I don't quite know if this applies to all youkai types, it may just be specific to some youkai types.
- May I know what make you you think that Oni, Tengu and such have a life span?
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How many Oni are there in the Touhou Universe? Only 2 or 3? What about the rest do they still live underground?
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How many Oni are there in the Touhou Universe? Only 2 or 3? What about the rest do they still live underground?
Unknown, but probably more than 2 or 3. Obviously there's Suika and Yuugi, and Kasen almost certainly for at least three. However, multiple characters have said at various points that the oni from the surface moved Underground. It's doubtful that Yuugi is the only one there. However, there are few enough that they seem to meet fairly rarely.
Other than that, there's an implied large population of them living and working in Hell (not Former Hell, the New Hell which we've never seen). Most of the oni are supposedly in this population, and I would personally estimate at least dozens if not hundreds or thousands although that's just a random guess. The use of the word "most" though implies at least 4 I guess? Since it's more than the three we know don't live there.
Other than that, the only hint we sort of have is the Kishin from WaHH chapter 12. This is a bit speculative so take it with a grain of salt. "Kishin" is written with the characters for "oni god" and because of Suiki's employment in Hell it's kind of implied that he or she is literally an oni that is a god. Kishin chief implies the existence of subordinates, and the myth Suiki comes from includes three other oni with different elemental powers. If they're all chiefs, that implies at least 8 Kishin I guess? For them all to have at least one lesser Kishin under their command.
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Like all stories, it is assumed to be canon. What happens in it is assumed to have happened in the Touhou universe.
This would also include the first story, where you see excerpts of events.
I never said it didn't happen in Gensokyo; it pretty obviously says it does. But it's formulated as a story with no connection to anything else besides mentioning, like, voodoo dolls.
Additionally, even if this were able to be cleanly tied to the rest of canon, the 8 honest men were from the outside world, and as such weren't protected by the no-attacking rules. Moreover, it was one of the 8 honest men themselves that killed the rest, even if they became a youkai, and at the end of the story they left Gensokyo anyways. The culprit killed them all because they weren't actually honest men; they were liars and thieves and didn't care about each other at all. These are the sorts of people that would be spirited away in order to be eaten.
There is no indication that it is something she recalls from previous incarnations. This is the most recent publication of PMiSS, so all information here is assumed to be up to date.
But I even said it was still correct. What I said is that the part about humans being attacked isn't relevant in present Gensokyo. It says the reason most youkai attack humans is because they need prey, and hence you should offer something else. Given that youkai don't need prey in that they have food supplied, but still attack humans for the purpose of imposing themselves and causing conflict, it isn't necessary for current humans. That isn't to say that it never happens, particularly since outside humans are fair game, and possibly some specific villagers given what Yukari says in WaHH, but it seems pretty flimsy to use the quote as evidence. Additionally, the fact that the youkai would be attacking for prey and the offering saves them for the time being, does infer that this would be a common, or at least, reoccurring thing; clearly not the case in modern Gensokyo.
You can't just assume "they" as a reference to anyone else but vampires. That doesn't make sense and seems to be out of context.
I'm not saying that specific reference wasn't about the vampires, of course it was. I was saying that the wording of the contract just doesn't actually include the word vampire, and the translation only adds it to clarify. Because of that, I'm guessing that the contract isn't necessarily exclusive to the vampires.
Yes, youkai as strong as vampires are usually forbidden to attack humans, but it doesn't mean that lesser youkai aren't as well. Since vampires are a recent addition, it should follow that there are many more youkai like this as well. But it isn't necessarily just these youkai that are forbidden under an imposed rule, nor that this is the only sort of contract.
I understand your point, what I am trying to say is there is a difference. The vampires is contractually obligated to do this, under the devil's contract, which cannot be broken.
Youkai, on the other hand, just have a law that they follow. They are not contractually obligated to do this, there is nothing magically binding them to do this.
They follow it because if they do not, their livelihoods are directly affected. This is because if Youkai kill humans, the balance in Gensokyo will crumble and youkai will be endangered, which destroys the purpose of the barrier.
That is partially why I started mentioning it. If there is an inherent danger present by youkai attacking humans in Gensokyo (which I certainly believe), and all of the other youkai apparently not falling under this contract can get along fine without killing them, why is a contract explicitly forbidding it for these specific powerful youkai even necessary? Why even differentiate in the first place?
The other apparent majority of youkai surely vary wildly in intelligence and strength, and might not even care about the consequence, which is why I said I was skeptical of the other approach being just "please don't eat humans because X; if you eat humans we'll beat you up".
Denizens imply it includes everyone in Gensokyo. I see no reason why the new youkai would feel the need to follow its rules.
No no, I was giving you a more thorough translation.
これでは、何か新しい妖怪が外で死滅し幻想郷に流れ込んだ時に、現状の妖怪では歯が立たず幻想郷が支配されてしまうかも知れない。
"With this, if some new youkai was eliminated from the outside and flowed into Gensokyo, at that time if the present youkai did not stand up to them, it's possible Gensokyo could end up being conquered."
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Part of the life span issue is this: in East Asian culture, the youkai lore is very much about how so and so - animals, trees, corpses, manmade objects, you name it - turns into a youkai after too many years. Exactly how long they can live after becoming youkai is never the concern of storytellers.
In the classic Chinese novel "Journey to the West" (hugely influential in Japan), all youkai want to eat the monk Triptaka's meat, because a saint's meat grants them immortality (inspiration to Touhou's "hermit meat is tasty to youkai"), implying they are not immortal. The novel also says in an early chapter where the Monkey learnt of death, if something lives for too long, natural forces will attempt to destroy it at certain intervals, with the last time being impossible to survive unless one trains to become a sennin (possible inspiration to Touhou's shinigami trials), which might account for why the youkai all seek immortality. But as far as I know, in overall, the idea of youkai life span has never been a widespread one. Everyone knows youkai want to eat Triptaka, but few remembers this early chapter where Monkey learnt to fear death and became a Taoist's discipline.
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i bet it's why zun doesn't have any clear mentions about it either, the bum
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I never said it didn't happen in Gensokyo; it pretty obviously says it does. But it's formulated as a story with no connection to anything else besides mentioning, like, voodoo dolls.
I see, I misunderstood what you meant. I am not too sure if they are outsiders.
I was saying that the wording of the contract just doesn't actually include the word vampire, and the translation only adds it to clarify. Because of that, I'm guessing that the contract isn't necessarily exclusive to the vampires.
I see what you mean. I don't agree with the idea that it isn't exclusive to vampires. It doesn't make sense.
The other apparent majority of youkai surely vary wildly in intelligence and strength, and might not even care about the consequence, which is why I said I was skeptical of the other approach being just "please don't eat humans because X; if you eat humans we'll beat you up".
Gensokyo is safer, but it isn't completely safe. Most youkai are on board with this idea, but not every youkai. In her monologue, Akyuu mentions that youkai almost never eat humans, but not never. By eating humans, I assume she means humans from Gensokyo. Since it is pretty clear that outside world humans are fair game.
It makes more sense if spell card rules is a law and gets enforced by youkai or humans. Kind of like that group of humans in Wild and Horned Hermit that gathered up some kind of hunting party or some such after someone got injured by accident.
What I am arguing is that the Spell Card rules themselves aren't magically binding. Since there is no indication on how it could be so.
Everyone knows youkai want to eat Triptaka, but few remembers this early chapter where Monkey learnt to fear death and became a Taoist's discipline.
By Monkey, I assume you mean Son Goku? I only really know the story after he went to heaven and got a huge power boost from eating all those peaches. He did some studying with some monk prior to that, but I do not know that part of the story.
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The simplest answer is that the Outside World hasn't completely run out of belief yet. There's nothing so hard and fast about Gensokyo's barrier that's absolutely necessary to keep them all alive inside it. Outside, they'd be weakened and gradually disappear, but they can still live. They're endangered, not extinct.
This, right here, is one of those very simple and obvious points that can get lost in all the straw-grasping and hair-splitting when it comes to the life of youkai in Gensokyo. Most of us probably know at least one person who believes in supernatural forces. It wouldn't be surprising if, in a country as steeped in mythology and tradition as Japan, there would be enough of such people to keep a great number of Gensokyo's denizens alive and well.
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By Monkey, I assume you mean Son Goku? I only really know the story after he went to heaven and got a huge power boost from eating all those peaches. He did some studying with some monk prior to that, but I do not know that part of the story.
It's where he learned most of his powers. IIRC he also managed to bypass all their spiritual requirements ("go with the flow", etc.) through sheer ability, which should be impossible, and it kind of went to his head. So the hermit who trained him kicked him out, and made him swear to never tell anyone how he learned that stuff.
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Sorry to interrupt this awesome talk about about Touhou lore.
Can someone who can read Japanese tell me what this is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-bhzSV2YYk
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Guys, what will happen to Touhou after ZUN dies? Will he pass it on to someone else or will it simply die (like Mega Man in essence...)?
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Sorry to interrupt this awesome talk about about Touhou lore.
Can someone who can read Japanese tell me what this is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-bhzSV2YYk
Apparently it's a short R-18 visual novel with Kotohime and Yumemi as heroines, with the full version expected to be released on Comiket 84. The author's twitter (https://twitter.com/honnyarahalt) (no NSFW content on the page, but may link to NSFW material).
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Some questions
1) Is Shikieiki a yama or a kishin? Is a yama higher in rank than a kishin cheif?
2) What the difference between those 2 exactly?
3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.
4) What did they mean by "original youkai" in chapter 9 Pg. 11 of Wild And Horned Hermit?
- Could those "original youkai" be the same as the one in Touhou Suzunaan - Forbidden Scrollery chapter 3?
5) Why Youkai did not continue to attack human (make them feel fear, etc.) to preserve there existence? Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?
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1) Is Shikieiki a yama or a kishin? Is a yama higher in rank than a kishin cheif?
She's a yama. She's Shikieiki Yamaxanadu, remember? Kishin chiefs are lower in rank than yamas.
2) What the difference between those 2 exactly?
Yamas judge. Kishin chiefs punish.
3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.
That chapter is the only place where he appears or is mentioned.
4) What did they mean by "original youkai" in chapter 9 Pg. 11 of Wild And Horned Hermit?
I guess it refers to how youkai were before Gensokyo's existence. As to why there is such a difference, I think Reimu explains it nicely on the very same page. Many youkai are fine with humans not fearing them nowadays, there are even those that visit or even live in Human village. It's hard to be afraid of someone you can share a drink with, isn't it? "Original youkai" weren't like that at all.
5) Why Youkai did not continue to attack human (make them feel fear, etc.) to preserve there existence? Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?
Humans in Outside World stopped fearing (and pretty much believing in) youkai, so they grew weaker there. As for Gensokyo, it's the other way around - there are too few humans, but they believe in youkai, so they are preserved instead.
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Some questions
1) Is Shikieiki a yama or a kishin? Is a yama higher in rank than a kishin cheif?
She's a Yama.
They don't seem to belong to the same hierarchy.
2) What the difference between those 2 exactly?
Yamas judge people, Kishin supervise their punishment in Hell (and sometimes go hunting people that Hell wants dead, it seems)
3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.
Nah, he only appeared there.
5) Why Youkai did not continue to attack human (make them feel fear, etc.) to preserve there existence? Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?
I think that's probably the most reasonable explanation. They become too numerous and spread out, and with the advent of larger civilizations, there was less reasons to "fear the night". Although it's likely that some of the more powerful youkai wouldn't have problems attacking large concentration of people (like Yuuka or Suika), weaker youkai would probably hesitate to go hunt for humans in the middle of a city.
The fact that there are still monsters in the outside means that there are still people believing in them, though. Hm, the most superstitious people tend to be ones living in small, rural towns/villages (not exclusively, of course, I'm generalizing). Those are probably easier for youkai to infiltrate and keep the population's fear of them alive.
EDIT: Damnit, ninja'd :V
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She's a Yama.
They don't seem to belong to the same hierarchy.
Yamas are the rulers of Hell. Everything in Hell is under their jurisdiction. Yamas should be able to boss Kishin around.
Were the human starting to become too strong and numerous for them to handle in the long run?
What the others said.
Humans can't be stronger than youkai. That is not going to happen. What youkai is weak against is the spiritual and humans in the outside world stopped believing in youkai, so they disappear.
You can say that Gensokyo's youkai evolved and some no longer need belief to sustain then. However, I am guessing they still need a purpose.
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Humans can't be stronger than youkai. That is not going to happen. What youkai is weak against is the spiritual and humans in the outside world stopped believing in youkai, so they disappear.
- Well before the Gensokyo barrier was ever created!
Then why did they stop believing in youkai? Is it because the human spread out and as time pass human did not believe in their existence to the pt where they were significantly weaker (could not oppose the human anymore) and start to disappear.
I still can't see how people can't believe in the existence of a being who can shoot laser beam and eat an entire group of human in a blink of a eye if they (youkai) repeatably did those act in front of numerous human. Won't that cause enough commotion to make people (or at least the people across the area) to believe in them?
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Yamas are the rulers of Hell. Everything in Hell is under their jurisdiction. Yamas should be able to boss Kishin around.
Hm. Well, Akyuu's article does say that it was the Ten Kings that created the system in the first place, so maybe that's true. But the other Yama (like Eiki) are only explicitly stated to control shinigami.
I still can't see how people can't believe in the existence of a being who can shoot laser beam and eat an entire group of human in a blink of a eye if they (youkai) repeatably did those act in front of numerous human. Won't that cause enough commotion to make people (or at least the people across the area) to believe in them?
Well, youkai legends usually don't have them going to human settlements and burning everything down. They usually pick up single lost humans, or enchant people, or similar things. Stands to reason that, the more humans become organized (therefore exposing themselves less) and search for scientific explanations for phenomena previously explained as "youkai did it!", the more they'd start dismissing the singular deaths caused by youkai as "accidents" or "wild beasts" or something else. And even the ones that do raid human villages (like oni) could be explained as rival towns or something (in the oni's case, we also have to consider that they left the world on their own will; IIRC it's not stated exactly when this happened, so maybe it was before even the Hakurei Barrier's creation)
Older, more powerful youkai are described as not being particularly active, and to pretty much lose interest in normal humans (as Yuuka's article says), so it could also explain why people forget them as singular entities. The fact that they don't disappear could mean that they represent a deeply ingrained fear in humans. Maybe. Like, I dunno, fear of the wilderness or something.
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Well, youkai legends usually don't have them going to human settlements and burning everything down. They usually pick up single lost humans, or enchant people, or similar things. Stands to reason that, the more humans become organized (therefore exposing themselves less) and search for scientific explanations for phenomena previously explained as "youkai did it!", the more they'd start dismissing the singular deaths caused by youkai as "accidents" or "wild beasts" or something else. And even the ones that do raid human villages (like oni) could be explained as rival towns or something (in the oni's case, we also have to consider that they left the world on their own will; IIRC it's not stated exactly when this happened, so maybe it was before even the Hakurei Barrier's creation)
Older, more powerful youkai are described as not being particularly active, and to pretty much lose interest in normal humans (as Yuuka's article says), so it could also explain why people forget them as singular entities. The fact that they don't disappear could mean that they represent a deeply ingrained fear in humans. Maybe. Like, I dunno, fear of the wilderness or something.
- Thanks for the clarifications. :)
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Hm. Well, Akyuu's article does say that it was the Ten Kings that created the system in the first place, so maybe that's true. But the other Yama (like Eiki) are only explicitly stated to control shinigami.
While there is no proof, Eiki seems to be modelled after the 5th of the 10 kings (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/sai-no-kawara.html#10kings), as she is merciful and her judgement is final.
The wiki on Eiki's profile used to have information about that, since there is a connection. I wonder what happened to it?
As for Yama, they would also have control over Kishin, here is pretty much the order in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Eiki_Shiki,_Yamaxanadu):
At the top of this organization, there presides 10 Yamas.(*3)
Below them are lesser judges and kishin chiefs. Each and every judge also commands several shinigami, while each of the kishin chiefs similarly commands a number of lesser oni.
Within this place, all lower ranks including lesser judges may consult with the Yamas.
If you are a Yama and not just a judge, presumably, you can order Kishin chiefs around.
Now, the wiki article here is a bit confusing to me. From reading it, I'm lead to believe that the Ministry of Right and Wrong is Hell. If this is correct, then, at the top, there are 10 yamas. But that would also mean the 10 yamas here would be the same as the 10 kings.
But before that, it talks about having more yamas? So, is the Ministry of Right and Wrong not Hell?
Since Komachi seems to serve only Eiki, I would assume Komachi is pretty high in the ranks of Hell.
the more they'd start dismissing the singular deaths caused by youkai as "accidents" or "wild beasts" or something else. And even the ones that do raid human villages (like oni) could be explained as rival towns or something (in the oni's case, we also have to consider that they left the world on their own will; IIRC it's not stated exactly when this happened, so maybe it was before even the Hakurei Barrier's creation)
Hakurei Barrier was only created around 120+ years ago. Oni left more than a thousand years ago. Its been so long that people don't even remember what oni weaknesses are.
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And yet, mythology. It's demonstrable that not everyone has forgotten - historians, curators, academics, amateur archivists, families passing down oral traditions, folks who simply have an interest in the subject for whatever reason, etc. We should bear in mind that while Gensokyo is fiction, the Outside World mentioned is the one that you and I live in.
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Random question.
Are there any "official" names for the bullets in the games?
Just wondering.
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And yet, mythology. It's demonstrable that not everyone has forgotten - historians, curators, academics, amateur archivists, families passing down oral traditions, folks who simply have an interest in the subject for whatever reason, etc. We should bear in mind that while Gensokyo is fiction, the Outside World mentioned is the one that you and I live in.
Then again, just because youkais aren't forgotten, doesn't mean people believe in their existence. Kanako said it best:
"That's right. "It'd be fun if they existed. Wouldn't it be exciting? But it's too bad they aren't real." is the mindset of modern humans."
So youkais existence in Outside World isn't tied to what people know, but what people believe in.
Sorry if this isn't properly related. I have been off the curve of this thread
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No, that's a fair and valid point; "knowing about" is not the same thing as "believing in", you're right. But in this crazy ol' world, I think it's probably less likely that there is no one who believes in youkai than that there are enough genuine, sincere people who believe youkai exist. Enough to keep them alive? Apparently! And that's aside from exactly how much they need to be believed in to stay alive, which I think was covered earlier in this thread.
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I was thinking in the lines of "Why they still need to Gensokyo". There are some people to let them live, sure, but unless there is particular interest of tem or an outburst of believe on them (like what happened with zashiki-warashi in WaHH Chapter 14), they need to stay in Gensokyo to stay alive. And the few who exist in human world (I just call Outside World that because I like that name better) probably only can live there thanks to a group of people who still deeply believe they exist
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Well, we can also think of a lot of practical reasons for wanting to stay in an area that is their natural habitat, where they are safe from encroaching development, and likely won't be trapped, tagged, drugged and vivisected.
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While there is no proof, Eiki seems to be modelled after the 5th of the 10 kings (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/sai-no-kawara.html#10kings), as she is merciful and her judgement is final.
The wiki on Eiki's profile used to have information about that, since there is a connection. I wonder what happened to it?
As for Yama, they would also have control over Kishin, here is pretty much the order in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Eiki_Shiki,_Yamaxanadu):
At the top of this organization, there presides 10 Yamas.(*3)
Below them are lesser judges and kishin chiefs. Each and every judge also commands several shinigami, while each of the kishin chiefs similarly commands a number of lesser oni.
Within this place, all lower ranks including lesser judges may consult with the Yamas.
If you are a Yama and not just a judge, presumably, you can order Kishin chiefs around.
Now, the wiki article here is a bit confusing to me. From reading it, I'm lead to believe that the Ministry of Right and Wrong is Hell. If this is correct, then, at the top, there are 10 yamas. But that would also mean the 10 yamas here would be the same as the 10 kings.
But before that, it talks about having more yamas? So, is the Ministry of Right and Wrong not Hell?
Since Komachi seems to serve only Eiki, I would assume Komachi is pretty high in the ranks of Hell.
Hm. I always assumed that "lesser judges" was just another term for a Yama of lesser rank. It's stated that many of them were Jizou statues that applied to the job. I always considered Eiki one of these "lesser judges" because Komachi said she was once a Jizou statue (she says so in one of the Three Faeries manga); if she was one of the Ten Kings, she would predate these statues-turned-judges. And at any rate, the Ten Kings are explicitly named in the Yama article, and none of them have Eiki's name.
Regarding the Ministry of Right and Wrong, it seems reasonable to assume that they are, indeed, the ones that control Hell. I mean, they are the ones that made the move from Old Hell to New Hell; if they didn't control it, I don't see how they'd be able to make that change. It's certainly not the only thing that they do, but it's probably part of their job to control Hell's finances, the kinds of punishments people suffer, etc etc.
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I guess people assume/believe it's implied/stated Shiki's the 5th judge because Shiki's referred to as the Enma in PoFV? (which is the name of the 5th judge). Unless "Enma" can be used as a generic term (I dunno if it can or not).
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Hm. I always assumed that "lesser judges" was just another term for a Yama of lesser rank. It's stated that many of them were Jizou statues that applied to the job. I always considered Eiki one of these "lesser judges" because Komachi said she was once a Jizou statue (she says so in one of the Three Faeries manga)
The article uses 2 different terms. A Yama is a judge, but a judge is not necessarily a Yama. At least that's what I'm seeing, but I am unsure. The Japanese text uses these two terms. One is 閻魔 (Yama) and the other is 官 (Judge/Imperial Officer).
This is also where my confusion is at. The Jizou statue applied for the Yama position, which according to the Ministry of Right and Wrong, there are still only 10. Which I assume is the 10 Kings, if we are to assume the Ministry of Right and Wrong is Hell.
Well, one of the 10 Kings (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/sai-no-kawara.html#10kings), the 5th one, the Buddhist counterpart is Jizō Bosatsu.
This article (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/mandala-deities.html#13) talks about the 13 Buddhas and how they are a manifestation of the 10 Kings in a specific religious sect.
And at any rate, the Ten Kings are explicitly named in the Yama article, and none of them have Eiki's name.
Sort of. The Japanese words:
＊２ 秦広王・初江王・栄帝王・五官王・閻魔王・変成王・泰山王・等王・都市王・五道転輪王の十王。
The 5th one is the relevant one, 閻魔王, King Enma. Of which is written the same as Yama. The last Kanji just means King.
Eiki is referred to as Enma-sama. Or Yama-sama, however you want to call it. The Kanji's the same.
数多い閻魔様の内の一人。
One of the many Yamas.
Regarding the Ministry of Right and Wrong, it seems reasonable to assume that they are, indeed, the ones that control Hell. I mean, they are the ones that made the move from Old Hell to New Hell; if they didn't control it, I don't see how they'd be able to make that change. It's certainly not the only thing that they do, but it's probably part of their job to control Hell's finances, the kinds of punishments people suffer, etc etc.
I would also assume so. They were able to do that and expand the Netherworld, so that should be a safe assumption.
Unless "Enma" can be used as a generic term (I dunno if it can or not).
Enma can be used as a generic term. Yama and Enma should be interchangeable as they have the same Kanji.
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But the reason that the Jizou statues applied in the first place was because the Ten Kings weren't enough to judge all the souls that were coming to them. I'm thinking that Yama applies to everyone that judges dead souls, and there are higher ranking yamas and lower ranking yamas. Would also explain why every Jizou statue was given jurisdiction over only the area that they watched when they were statues; there's certainly more than 10 areas with Jizou statues.
Then again, I'm unsure. It really depends if the terms "yama" and "judge" can be used as synonyms or not, in this case.
数多い閻魔様の内の一人。
One of the many Yamas.
To me, the use of "many" here indicates that there are more Yamas than just the Ten Kings, otherwise it'd just state "One of the Ten Kings". But I'm grasping at straws here, I suppose.
If Enma can be used as a generic term for Yama, then one can't really say for sure she's the 5th King. 'Sides, I'd think that, if she really was one of them, Akyuu would've explicitly said so in her article... (then again zun hardly explicitly states anything)
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Then again, I'm unsure. It really depends if the terms "yama" and "judge" can be used as synonyms or not, in this case.
Well, a Yama is also a judge. But considering the article on Ministry of Right and Wrong, the article could have used lesser "yamas", but went with lesser judges and kishin chiefs instead, so I am on the side of it not being synonyms.
To me, the use of "many" here indicates that there are more Yamas than just the Ten Kings, otherwise it'd just state "One of the Ten Kings". But I'm grasping at straws here, I suppose.
That would be true. But this is also where I am confused. I am lead to believe there are only 10 Yamas in the Ministry of Right and Wrong section of the article. If that is true, then it can only mean the 10 Yamas are the 10 Kings.
If Enma can be used as a generic term for Yama, then one can't really say for sure she's the 5th King. 'Sides, I'd think that, if she really was one of them, Akyuu would've explicitly said so in her article... (then again zun hardly explicitly states anything)
Yeah, which is why I said up front there is no definite proof. But still, it should have been in Eiki's profile page for fandom trivia or something like that.
It is just that she seems to be modelled after the 5th King, her judgement can't be overturned, she is merciful, she is the one that decides where you go. That is all what the 5th king is. 5th King, being the one that looks at the judgements of the first 4 kings and making a "last judgement", so to speak.
On the 35th day following death, Enma-ō (Skt. = Yama, the 5th judge, often shown holding the Wheel-of-Life in Tibetan Tanka) makes his ruling after hearing the judgments passed down by the first four kings. Offerings by living relatives are especially important on the 35th day following death, as this is the day the defendant is sentenced by Enma to one of six realms of existence -- (1) Hell; (2) Hungry Ghosts; (3) Animals; (4) Asura; (5) Human Beings; (6) the heavenly Deva realm.
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It's just that the whole Jizou statue stuff makes no sense if we consider that there can only ever be 10 Yamas. What, were the old ones retiring or something? And how does just changing them solves the "too many souls to judge" problem?
Also, note that Akyuu writes: "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]". This pretty much confirms that there are Yamas other than the Ten Kings. The former Jizou statues are additional yamas, the extra force they need be able to judge everyone reliably. And also, Akyuu doesn't say that there are only 10 yamas in the Ministry; she only says that the leaders of the whole thing are 10 yamas.
It is just that she seems to be modelled after the 5th King, her judgement can't be overturned, she is merciful, she is the one that decides where you go.
Those two traits you listed that I underlined are universal for all judges (Akyuu sayz: "Each trial is presided by a single judge, who will pass judgement without heeding the testimony of the deceased, and thus divide the souls towards Heaven, Hell or the Netherworld as the outcome dictates"; so they all individually decide the fate of each soul they judge, and no one but them have a say in the matter). She being merciful could be indicative of that, but, again, she was a Jizou statue. We know from Akyuu that nearly all Yamas are former Jizou, but there are still some that weren't. The Ten Kings predate the employment of Jizou as Yamas. Therefore, she can't be one of them, as they predate her as a Yama.
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Akyuu that nearly all Yamas are former Jizou, but there are still some that weren't. The Ten Kings predate the employment of Jizou as Yamas. Therefore, she can't be one of them, as they predate her as a Yama.
I think you missed my point. One of the 10 Kings, the 5th one, is a Jizou statue. Yes, employment of Jizou statues happens after the 10 Kings, but that is something else.
I guess all I did was provide the link, but not the quote, here is the quote:
Thirteen Buddha are thought to have developed from the Chinese belief in ten kings of the underworld (Jū-ō 十王) who were regarded as manifestations of Ten Buddha (Jūbutsu 十仏), to whom three more Buddha were added.
This is specific to the Shingon sect of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism. The 5th one, Enma Ou, being the relevant one, correlates to Jizo Bosatsu (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/jizo1.shtml).
What you mentioned is also interesting:
Each trial is presided by a single judge, who will pass judgement without heeding the testimony of the deceased, and thus divide the souls towards Heaven, Hell or the Netherworld as the outcome dictates
This is kind of weird, because Eiki's profile implies the opposite.
The minimum requirement of lying to her, in order to appear as a good person, is not letting her discover that lie. If discovered it is a huge deduction.
From this, the assumption is that the testimony of the deceased is indeed heard.
Also, note that Akyuu writes: "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]". This pretty much confirms that there are Yamas other than the Ten Kings. The former Jizou statues are additional yamas, the extra force they need be able to judge everyone reliably.
See, but that would be a bit odd, don't you think?
That would imply there are already other Yamas other than the 10 Kings, prior to the recruitment of Jizou statues as Yamas.
Could we get someone who knows Japanese to translate that part? The meaning is kind of weird.
だが、徐々に人間の数も増え、裁判官の人手が足りなくなると、十王全てが当時最も力のあった閻魔王を名乗り、審判を一回だけに減らす事で。深刻だった人手不足を解消した。
What does this translate to? That is the Japanese equivalent text and putting it on Google translate gave me something weird.
Akyuu doesn't say that there are only 10 yamas in the Ministry; she only says that the leaders of the whole thing are 10 yamas.
No, she doesn't say there are only 10 Yamas. She simply states there are 10 Yamas. I take that as to imply that there are 10 Yamas. Anyway, looking at the text, she doesn't say 10 Yamas, she says 10 Yama Kings, the Kanji "Ou" is added to Yama.
I am unsure if that makes a difference or not, but it is there and not translated, so I wanted to clarify.
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It suddenly makes sense.
Not quite sure if this is correct, but it basically says that the Ten Kings impersonated Enma-o, which is the most powerful among them, to quickly pass judgments.
A confusion from not making a distinction between 閻魔王 and 閻魔様.
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I think Sungho is about right. It's saying the Ten Kings all began to use the name of Enma-o, who was the most powerful among them at that time.
A confusion from not making a distinction between 閻魔王 and 閻魔様.
I think here, ZUN is going backwards from this linguist/folklore phenomena, to explain (with Touhou's characteristic anti-logic) why "Enma" refers both to a specific god, and to all judges.
In real life:
First there was the Hindu god Yama, who eventually became the Buddhist judge of afterlife. The concept was expanded into Ten Kings in Chinese folk religion, and one of them is named Enma.
In Touhou logic:
First there were Ten Kings, and Enma was the most powerful of them. Then to make the process more efficient, they all took on the Enma name. Later, newly appointed judges are also Enma.
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I think you missed my point. One of the 10 Kings, the 5th one, is a Jizou statue. Yes, employment of Jizou statues happens after the 10 Kings, but that is something else.
Ah, ok, I understand what you meant now. Yeah, that could be more indicative of her being the 5th one. I don't particularly believe in it, but I can see now where one would get the idea.
The minimum requirement of lying to her, in order to appear as a good person, is not letting her discover that lie. If discovered it is a huge deduction.
From this, the assumption is that the testimony of the deceased is indeed heard.
Since that's from her game profile, which predates PMiSS, it could be considered that this bit was retconned. Alternatively, it meant that lying to her while she's preaching about your wrongdoings while you're still alive is a bad idea.
See, but that would be a bit odd, don't you think?
That would imply there are already other Yamas other than the 10 Kings, prior to the recruitment of Jizou statues as Yamas.
I don't see why that'd be odd. It'd just mean that there were already other Yamas assisting them in the judgements. Nothing really contradicts this. Humanity then grew to a point where their numbers weren't enough to get the job done, so they needed even more Yamas.
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Alternatively, it meant that lying to her while she's preaching about your wrongdoings while you're still alive is a bad idea.
From the gists of what I got, if you lie, do it right. Don't half lie.
My sense is that she will know that you are lying, because well, it is impossible to lie to her. Her ability goes beyond what Satori can do. But she is going to pretend to not know if you do it right.
Since that's from her game profile, which predates PMiSS, it could be considered that this bit was retconned.
It could, yes, but retcon is something that I don't tend to consider unless stated by the author or absolutely necessary. I would try to find another way to explain it.
I don't see why that'd be odd. It'd just mean that there were already other Yamas assisting them in the judgements. Nothing really contradicts this. Humanity then grew to a point where their numbers weren't enough to get the job done, so they needed even more Yamas.
No, I find that odd, because it meant that there were other Yamas prior to the part about employment, which doesn't make sense.
Anyway, that doesn't matter, they gave us another translation to it.
Not quite sure if this is correct, but it basically says that the Ten Kings impersonated Enma-o, which is the most powerful among them, to quickly pass judgments.
Following up on what cuc is trying to say; What is happening here is that all the judges are now doing the last judgement, instead of just Enma-o.
Normally, it would be the first 4 of the 10 kings doing some judgement, then, Enma-o goes over their judgements and makes a last judgement. So, what is happening now is that in order to speed up the process, each of the 10 kings are going to make the last judgement, instead of only Enma-o.
But even that wasn't enough, so they recruited Jizou statues to become Yamas. Each Jizou statue, I assume, would have the same authority as the 10 kings.
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Ok, I'm missing something here. Why do you think it doesn't make sense for there to have been Yamas other than the Ten Kings before the Jizou employment? Specially when the phrasing "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]" can't really be interpreted in any way other than "the Ten Kings talked to the rest of the Yama of the day". What is your reasoning behind "the Ten Kings were the only Yama that existed before the Jizou statues were employed"?
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What is your reasoning behind "the Ten Kings were the only Yama that existed before the Jizou statues were employed"?
Because in religion, not Touhou related, the 10 Yama kings are the only Yamas around. If you are a Yama, you are one of the 10 Yama kings.
Then, we have Touhou, where we get a section about more Yamas getting added. What I find odd is why have a part mentioning about adding more Yamas right after just talking about adding more Yamas?
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Touhou may take it's bases on myths, but just because something is true in the original legend doesn't mean it's true in the Touhou universe as well. I mean, Tsukuyomi isn't the leader of a lunarian civilization in the original myths, for example. Using them to determinate how things work in-universe isn't really a good idea.
Also, this line "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]" isn't talking about adding Yamas. They called a conference with other already existing Yamas of the time, to decide what to do.
What I'm not sure about is, considering that the Ten Kings are said to have been the only ones doing the judging back then, what exatcly was the job of these other Yamas? Assisting them or something?
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Can you list in order the characters that appear in the full Bad Apple!! PV?
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Also, this line "[...]the Ten Kings called upon the most powerful of Yamas of the day [...]" isn't talking about adding Yamas. They called a conference with other already existing Yamas of the time, to decide what to do.
What I'm not sure about is, considering that the Ten Kings are said to have been the only ones doing the judging back then, what exatcly was the job of these other Yamas? Assisting them or something?
I see what you are trying to say now. You are trying to say they were calling on existing Yamas, which did not cross my mind. But that makes even less sense.
A Yamas job is to judge the dead, so the 10 Kings can't really call on Yamas to do something they are already doing.
Touhou may take it's bases on myths, but just because something is true in the original legend doesn't mean it's true in the Touhou universe as well. I mean, Tsukuyomi isn't the leader of a lunarian civilization in the original myths, for example. Using them to determinate how things work in-universe isn't really a good idea.
Yes, if they tell you such and such has been changed, then you take whatever is mentioned. Kind of like how in Touhou, Yamas were recruited, but this doesn't happen in myths, but that is the Touhou universe. So, in Touhou universe, we know there are Yamas that were recruited and they were Jizou statues.
But if they don't tell you, then the myth it is based on is a good guide. For example, Remilia's weaknesses, if you weren't told, you assume crosses, sunlight, wooden stake, holy water, garlic, flowing water. Since she is based on a western vampire. However, they tell you that she isn't weak to crosses and she has an additional weakness to fried soy beans. They also warn you that those weaknesses only annoy her, so it won't be fatal unlike normal vampires. So, you take these new information and modify your knowledge of vampires for the touhou universe.
What they did not say is when describing the 10 kings how there were more Yamas. At least that did not cross my mind, since I would then have to assume the other Yamas are not judging the dead, which doesn't make any sense. When I read that, my assumption was that the 10 kings recruited more Yamas to help them. And then right afterwards they talked about recruitment again, which also doesn't make any sense.
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Can you list in order the characters that appear in the full Bad Apple!! PV?
Reimu, Marisa, Patchouli, Remilia, Sakuya, Flandre, Youmu, Yuyuko, Komachi, Eiki, Mokou, Keine + ex-Keine, Eirin, Kaguya
Lunasa + Merlin + Lyrica, Chen/Ran/Tewi/Reisen/Momiji, Sanae + Hina, Kanako + Suwako, Yukari + Tenshi, Aya, Suika, Alice, Nitori, Yuuka, Elly, Reimu + Marisa (PC-98 and Windows)
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Reimu, Marisa, Patchouli, Remilia, Sakuya, Flandre, Youmu, Yuyuko, Komachi, Eiki, Mokou, Keine + ex-Keine, Eirin, Kaguya
Lunasa + Merlin + Lyrica, Chen/Ran/Tewi/Reisen/Momiji, Sanae + Hina, Kanako + Suwako, Yukari + Tenshi, Aya, Suika, Alice, Nitori, Yuuka, Elly, Reimu + Marisa (PC-98 and Windows)
I'm talking about the one that plays when Nomico performs...
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I think you missed my point. One of the 10 Kings, the 5th one, is a Jizou statue. Yes, employment of Jizou statues happens after the 10 Kings, but that is something else.
Jizou statues are modeled after the Jizou. They are representations of the deity Jizou Bosatsu. The fifth King was not a Jizou statue. The lines in the religion get really wonky here, because Jizou Bosatsu itself is not actually Enmaou either; despite being the "same", the 10 Kings of Hell are slightly separate notions from the 13 buddhist deities.
The Jizou statues themselves have also essentially split apart from their original purpose, since originally they're put up to be signs of Jizou Bosatsu helping the living and dead in some manner. However, they sort of evolved into their own thing on their own, and are much more well-known than the 10 Kings, and even the buddhist deities themselves.
Anyways, I think it's apparent by now that there's an iffy wording in the text that misled the translation.
First, there were the Ten Kings; the fifth of which was 閻魔王 Enmaou. The others were not Enma/Yama, but they were all 裁判官 judges. When the number of humans to judge became too much to handle in so many steps of judgement, 十王全てが all of the Ten Kings [subject] looked to 当時最も力のあった the most powerful (i.e. in judgement) at the time [qualifier] 閻魔王 Enmaou [object], and を名乗る impersonated them, 審判を一回だけに減らす事で to reduce the judgements to only one.
This is why they all now have the name of 閻魔 Enma/Yama.
Then the Jizou statues were appointed as new 閻魔 Yama, which are now established to be the 裁判官 judges. Now, 殆どの閻魔様は、古いお地蔵さんである nearly all Yama are old Jizou statues.
The Ten Kings at the top of the Ministry are 十人の閻魔王 the ten "Enmaou", i.e. those who are now named Enmaou. Below them are other 裁判官 judges and the kishin chiefs.
Another mistranslation now caught: このうち、裁判官までが閻魔と呼ばれるのである Among these, all up to the judges can be referred to as Enma/Yama.
裁判官 also does not refer to "lesser" judges either, just the judges. All of which are called Yama. This clears up the fact that all judges are given a region to be in charge of.
意見 also does not mean testimony, it simply means their opinion. This alleviates the problem mentioned before, since it isn't their testimony that's unheard; simply their opinion on where they should go or what deed is considered righteous or a sin, which is obvious.
The mixing of all these religious premises is all acknowledged and is why the Jizou statues are the ones being upgraded into Yama; the Jizou statues are representations of the deity whose counterpart is the King whose name the rest took on. Therefore, they all are actually called Yama. Ha.
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3) Does anyone know anything (apart being a male) about this Kishin cheif "Suiki" they were talking about in Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit.
The other bits of this have already been answered, but it's worth noting that we don't know he's male either. That was just a translator decision (mine actually) since unlike Japanese, it's awkward to refer to people without mentioning their gender in English. Suiki's gender is unconfirmed one way or the other. For the record though, I'm pretty sure in my translation Komachi never mentions his gender and everyone else (mostly Kasen) could therefore just be making their own assumptions. Maybe.
Or I was just a bad translator for causing this much confusion.
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Okay, so I am very new and very lost right now.
Allow me to explain: I found out about Touhou on TV Tropes, and was attracted by the fact that the fandom is apparently full of yuri (which I quite like) or something. So I tried looking into it only to find Touhou has like 20-something games and a fanbase as easy to integrate into as trying to plug a USB into a disc drive.
Essentially, would someone give me/link me to a crash-course on the Touhou games and fandom? I know it's a series of bullet-hell sh'mups (which I also like), but that's it.
Could someone tell me if I should start with 6, seeing as I don't have Windows 98 for 1-5, or will the sequel skip hopelessly confuse me?
Any well-written fanfics/well-done anime, doujinshi (if I was dictating this, it'd be pronounced so wrong), etc. I should be aware of? I'll probably check it out eventually.
Thanks for your time, and your efforts in leading around a newcomer that is very, very lost.
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The fifth King was not a Jizou statue. The lines in the religion get really wonky here, because Jizou Bosatsu itself is not actually Enmaou either; despite being the "same", the 10 Kings of Hell are slightly separate notions from the 13 buddhist deities.
I am taking that from this article (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/mandala-deities.html#13). As I do not know the specifics of this religion (Shingon sect of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism). From the article, it looks like they are one and the same. By that, I mean for this specific sect, not for all. This is the relevant section:
Thirteen Buddha are thought to have developed from the Chinese belief in ten kings of the underworld (Jū-ō 十王) who were regarded as manifestations of Ten Buddha (Jūbutsu 十仏)
From my understanding, it meant that the 10 kings are manifestations of the 10 buddha.
But of course, this is just one sect and other sects would have it differently. The more common one is Enma-o is not Jizou Bosatsu, since Jizou Bosatsu is supposed to be the one making excuses for the judged.
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Reimu, Marisa, Patchouli, Remilia, Sakuya, Flandre, Youmu, Yuyuko, Komachi, Eiki, Mokou, Keine + ex-Keine, Eirin, Kaguya
Lunasa + Merlin + Lyrica, Chen/Ran/Tewi/Reisen/Momiji, Sanae + Hina, Kanako + Suwako, Yukari + Tenshi, Aya, Suika, Alice, Nitori, Satori, Rin, Utsuho, Yuuka, Elly, Reimu + Marisa (PC-98 and Windows)
Fixed.
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Okay, so I am very new and very lost right now.
Allow me to explain: I found out about Touhou on TV Tropes, and was attracted by the fact that the fandom is apparently full of yuri (which I quite like) or something. So I tried looking into it only to find Touhou has like 20-something games and a fanbase as easy to integrate into as trying to plug a USB into a disc drive.
Essentially, would someone give me/link me to a crash-course on the Touhou games and fandom? I know it's a series of bullet-hell sh'mups (which I also like), but that's it.
Could someone tell me if I should start with 6, seeing as I don't have Windows 98 for 1-5, or will the sequel skip hopelessly confuse me?
Any well-written fanfics/well-done anime, doujinshi (if I was dictating this, it'd be pronounced so wrong), etc. I should be aware of? I'll probably check it out eventually.
Thanks for your time, and your efforts in leading around a newcomer that is very, very lost.
1. Abandon TVTropes.
2. The main articles on the front page of the Touhou Wiki (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki) can sort you out in terms of the list of games and their requirements, the cast, official print works (including translated manga), and fanworks presented in a well-organized format.
3. Touhou 1-5 ran on PC-98; not Windows 98. They require an emulator to play.
4. I'm sure if you want some recommendations for exceptional fan works, you can make a recommendation thread on this board and folks will be happy to help.
Welcome to MotK!
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So anyone know a good place for Touhou doujins, english translated. Or at least some doujins. I am exhausting my resources here x(
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I am taking that from this article (http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/mandala-deities.html#13). As I do not know the specifics of this religion (Shingon sect of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism). From the article, it looks like they are one and the same. By that, I mean for this specific sect, not for all. This is the relevant section:
Thirteen Buddha are thought to have developed from the Chinese belief in ten kings of the underworld (Jū-ō 十王) who were regarded as manifestations of Ten Buddha (Jūbutsu 十仏)
From my understanding, it meant that the 10 kings are manifestations of the 10 buddha.
But of course, this is just one sect and other sects would have it differently. The more common one is Enma-o is not Jizou Bosatsu, since Jizou Bosatsu is supposed to be the one making excuses for the judged.
One myth was evolved from the other and they are similar in purpose, but the myths are different and are not literally meant to be the same entities. They aren't held in the same light, at least anymore; the thirteen buddha are what people commonly see and mention. The Jizou statues are a very common sight, and have even become its own sort of charm.
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One myth was evolved from the other and they are similar in purpose, but the myths are different and are not literally meant to be the same entities. They aren't held in the same light, at least anymore; the thirteen buddha are what people commonly see and mention. The Jizou statues are a very common sight, and have even become its own sort of charm.
Yeah, I understand that, but the context reference point here is the argument on whether Eiki is Enma-o or not.
The idea is Enma-o can't be a Jizou statue, because employment of such comes after. Which isn't entirely true, depending on the belief. And yes, I agree that the more common belief is that they are different.
The other point is that Enma-o is named, so therefore Eiki cannot be Enma-o.
The contention is that Eiki has everything that Enma-o is supposed to have, like mercy and authority. Her title in Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing is Highest Judge in Paradise, while this title doesn't mean anything. Her other title, the one in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense is Supreme Judge of Hell. All of these imply that she is the 5th judge, Enma-o.
The other question is whether Yamas can order Kishin chiefs around. Since in Ministry of Right and Wrong lists them at the same rank, some would rightfully assume that the judges cannot order Kishin chiefs around. This is weird, because if you have the authority of a Yama, you should be able order anyone outside of other Yamas around.
With the new translation, I am unsure if Yamas can order Kishin chiefs around. I would think so, but maybe not.
So anyone know a good place for Touhou doujins, english translated. Or at least some doujins. I am exhausting my resources here x(
The wiki (http://en.touhouwiki.net) should be a good place to find some doujins.
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I find it very difficult to believe that Enmaou used to be a statue that is meant to represent essentially themselves. Komachi does specify that the Jizou represents Jizou Bosatsu (and not Enmaou), but regardless I can't see that even being plausible. Why would ZUN even mention that Eiki used to be a Jizou statue when he'd already established that the Jizou statues were hired as new Yama, but hadn't stated that any of the Ten Kings were Jizou statues nor that Eiki was one of them, if it was indeed true.
The fact that the ten Enmaou are mentioned in one article and then Eiki's article immediately after makes no note of her being any of the Enmaou (or even any mention of Enmaou at all) makes an attempt to label her as the Enmaou pretty odd. Her having another name (i.e. Eiki Shiki) that they actually call her name makes it more odd, and her requiring the given job title of "the Yama of Xanadu" (in katakana, no less) rather than her just being called Yama or Enmaou because that's who they are, pretty much seals the deal even without all the other things. And why would this great figure handle a small magically-secluded place like Gensokyo anyways? Even if Eiki as Enmaou would judge more than just Gensokyo, surely there would be a more mention-worthy Yama that judges Gensokyo exclusively, as Eiki currently seems to.
If all of the Jizou statues are supposed to all represent Jizou Bosatsu, whose wish is to save everyone from Hell, then Eiki's traits in that regard are not special, either. It makes more sense that the Yama that used to be Jizou statues, representing Jizou Bosatsu, would all wish similarly, which would be why Eiki seems to also have a merciful nature.
Seriously everything just makes way more sense if Eiki is one of the Jizou statues mentioned.
The Yama would be able to order the Kishin because they are all Yama and hold the same authority. This is the reason why the other nine of the Ten Kings had to take the name Yama in the first place. By saying that all of the judges are called Yama, it gives them all the same authority in judgement (which is also why she can still be called the Supreme Judge of Hell). However, the Ten Kings may still be acknowledged as the top brass of the Ministry regardless of judging authority. That being said, I don't really think the Kishin chiefs are actually ordered as you seem to say, but rather they work together with the Yama in coordinating their jobs. You're making it sound like the Yama actually bosses around the Kishin chiefs, but I doubt it really works like that. I would put them at the same rank as the Yama; the main difference just being their actual job. I'm sure the Kishin are more than happy to punish those who deserve punishment and sometimes beat up some shmuck trying to cheat death.
In any case I guess I'll retranslate the appropriate articles when I have the time.
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Does anyone know if there was ever a Touhou Smash Bros. like game?
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Does anyone know if there was ever a Touhou Smash Bros. like game?
I might not be expert on Touhou fan games, but I say no. Though I did find a MDD video of Touhou parody of SSBM intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYWbnj0l0JE
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Does anyone know if there was ever a Touhou Smash Bros. like game?
There is a thread like that here on motk. It isn't exactly the same, but it covers some character mods for ssb with higher quality. Graphical mods for the stages probably exists, too.
Looking at the seihou games, is there some actual canon connection between touhou and seihou or is it just some cameos which makes no sense?
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Cameos which make no sense. They were added by request from ZUN, who worked on the music. Shuusou Gyoku and Kioh Gyoku were made in the gap between MS and EoSD, and as such even if they tried to make some sort of connection it would have dissolved going into EoSD anyways.
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Move as needed.
How big would a Touhou hitbox be in real life?
Just wondering.
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The size of your lungs.
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(http://i.imgur.com/Qr9tNer.jpg)
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You already have one. It's called your heart.
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Dammit, Wriggle beat me to it. :V
But yeah, I had imagined the real-life equivalent of a shooting game hitbox to be your heart, even if it is smaller in relation to your body. Size-wise would probably be closer to your lungs, as mentioned above.
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Her having another name (i.e. Eiki Shiki) that they actually call her name makes it more odd, and her requiring the given job title of "the Yama of Xanadu" (in katakana, no less) rather than her just being called Yama or Enmaou because that's who they are, pretty much seals the deal even without all the other things. And why would this great figure handle a small magically-secluded place like Gensokyo anyways?
If you look at the way title works, their title is usually relevant to the game/manga at hand. For example, Reimu's title, Representative of the Eight Million, in Hopeless Masquerade is much different from her title in other games. Her title, Freewheeling Human, in Wild and Horned Hermit represents a different look of her from this manga.
Eiki's title is from Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing and from that, what we get is that she is responsible for judging souls in Gensokyo, but from her dialogues, it is also implied she isn't the only one doing the judging of souls in Gensokyo.
Then, Perfect Momento in Strict Sense expands more about her. In PMiSS, they give her a different title. You view is different from mines in this. You find it odd why she isn't called Enma-o or Yama and I find it odd why she isn't just called Judge of Hell, since it really means the same thing, as far as judging authority is concerned.
If all of the Jizou statues are supposed to all represent Jizou Bosatsu, whose wish is to save everyone from Hell, then Eiki's traits in that regard are not special, either. It makes more sense that the Yama that used to be Jizou statues, representing Jizou Bosatsu, would all wish similarly, which would be why Eiki seems to also have a merciful nature.
Eiki's traits are special, because compared to other Yama, she is more lenient. This is an excerpt from Reisen's story dialogue:
Eiki: Even if I'm the one in charge of judging you, You will fall to hell.
Why would ZUN even mention that Eiki used to be a Jizou statue when he'd already established that the Jizou statues were hired as new Yama, but hadn't stated that any of the Ten Kings were Jizou statues nor that Eiki was one of them, if it was indeed true.
Zun is usually vague about lots of things.
I find it very difficult to believe that Enmaou used to be a statue that is meant to represent essentially themselves.
Yes, this would be something that doesn't make sense. Everything else makes sense. This is what would make me think Eiki as not Enma-o.
Looking at the seihou games, is there some actual canon connection between touhou and seihou or is it just some cameos which makes no sense?
What Drake said. There are no canon connection between Touhou and Seihou.
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Although since danmaku is nonlethal and all, I think in a RL spellcard duel it would be more like the fighters wearing a kind of plate around the stomach that would go "BEEPBEEPBEEP" when hit by a bullet, indicating the wearer has just lost a life.
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IRL your hitbox becomes your entire body. Imagine Gengetsu's Rape Time IRL.
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Although since danmaku is nonlethal and all, I think in a RL spellcard duel it would be more like the fighters wearing a kind of plate around the stomach that would go "BEEPBEEPBEEP" when hit by a bullet, indicating the wearer has just lost a life.
Or to make it more interesting, it would sound like "PICHUUUUUN"
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Move as needed.
How big would a Touhou hitbox be in real life?
Just wondering.
Hi, we have a stickied thread for asking random, miscellaneous questions. Please keep it in mind in the future.
Thread merged.
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Ehhh. I'm really not convinced at all. It sounds a lot like you're grasping a bit to support a pet theory, no offense.
but from her dialogues, it is also implied she isn't the only one doing the judging of souls in Gensokyo.
"Implied" is too strong of a wording, but this is really the only thing I think is worth considering. Either way I don't think that there being more than one judge for Gensokyo even pushes a bit at Eiki being Enmaou.
To note, there being multiple judges would also pretty much mean that any other judge would also be called Yamaxanadu, and that judge would also be exclusive to Gensokyo. As said before, I'm pretty skeptical of Gensokyo requiring any more than the one judge given how small it is. There's certainly a lot of space available where this could have been hinted at more than once, so the lack of evidence (unless I'm missing something) is telling, even though I'm open to the possibility.
Heck, the statement 担当は幻想郷の死者を裁く事で、我々に最も関係が深い閻魔様である "As the area she's in charge of is judging Gensokyo's dead, she is the most closely-related Yama to us" is some nice evidence against that, unless Akyuu is somehow unaware of there being another Yama judging Gensokyo or she just doesn't care to mention them because they don't get out often or something.
Then, Perfect Momento in Strict Sense expands more about her. In PMiSS, they give her a different title. You view is different from mines in this. You find it odd why she isn't called Enma-o or Yama and I find it odd why she isn't just called Judge of Hell, since it really means the same thing, as far as judging authority is concerned.
They aren't really equivalent quibbles. Having "Supreme" tacked on or not to her title just isn't that important, and is only even slightly relevant at all when assuming your conclusion. The claim that she's one of the Ten Kings, despite her never being called that at all, is quite important in comparison. Clearly we have different views on this, but the key difference is that you're working backwards from a conclusion.
Eiki's traits are special, because compared to other Yama, she is more lenient. This is an excerpt from Reisen's story dialogue:
Eiki: Even if I'm the one in charge of judging you, You will fall to hell.
Eiki's traits are special because she says "even if I'm the one judging you you'll go to Hell" in what's likely an exaggerated threat? I don't think so. I never said the Jizou were all the same either, just that the Jizou turned Yama might be naturally inclined to want people to avoid Hell. Your point was that Eiki is merciful just as Jizou Bosatsu and therefore they are the same; I offered an explanation of that characteristic that holds without assuming that Eiki is Enmaou and still fits with what we're sure of, even if there isn't enough information for me to actually say that these Yama want people to avoid Hell just because they were based on Jizou Bosatsu. My point is that "Eiki is especially merciful" isn't necessarily true and I don't think it's very well supported, and even if it was it doesn't stand as evidence on its own.
Zun is usually vague about lots of things.
It isn't vagueness, it's skipping an entire step in information, and an important one at that. If Eiki was Enmaou and was also a Jizou statue, saying "Jizou were hired to act as many new Yama" and then "Eiki used to be a Jizou statue" is not only confusing, it's deliberately misleading. It's looking at pieces of information that reach an obvious conclusion, and then supposing a new piece of information to that hasn't otherwise been alluded to and concluding something not only different, but conflicting the first obvious conclusion. Like saying P AND Q -> X but then saying P AND Q AND R -> Y, where we don't actually know if R is true, and X and Y are mutually exclusive. It isn't vague, it would just be plain dumb to write that way.
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Move as needed.
How big would a Touhou hitbox be in real life?
Just wondering.
It seems like this was kinda a joke but I still have a good answer. Just take the sprite of your choice to get an estimate for the hitbox size to character size ratio, then you'll find out exactly how big it is.
That being said I always thought the hitbox was pretty much the entire person. I figured the small hitbox was an abstraction for any convulsions that your character would do in obvious attempts not to get hit, i.e. rolling onto one's side to get into a tight space between two bullets. The reason arms aren't part of the hitbox is because if a bullet is about to hit a character, they just move their arm.
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What does Tewi's PoFV theme (Ousasama no Shiroi Hata) actually translate to? The most common ones are "Lord Usa's Elemental Flag" and "White Flag of Usa Shrine". But shouldn't it be "Lord Usa's White Flag"? Just wondering where does "elemental" and "shrine" comes from.
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It's two plays on words.
宇佐 refers to the Usa Jinguu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa_jing%C5%AB) (宇佐神宮), a shinto shrine dedicated to Hachiman. Of course, it's pronounced "usa" and so is a pun referring to Tewi. This is why it's called Usa Shrine.
素い幡 is pronounced "shiroi hata", as in a white flag. There's talk about it relating to Hachiman, but in any case it also changes kanji in order to match 幸運の素兎 因幡てゐ, or "White Rabbit of Good Fortune, Inaba Tewi". The 素 here also doubles its nonstandard meaning of "white" by using it in "white flag".
"Lord Usa's Elemental Flag" was some cheap translation done by who knows. "Lord Usa" is an easy mistake-that-isn't-really-a-mistake but translating 素 as "elemental" is ????
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Ehhh. I'm really not convinced at all. It sounds a lot like you're grasping a bit to support a pet theory, no offense.
It isn't my theory, it is the conclusion I got from seeing the theory and judging the pros and cons of such a theory.
"Implied" is too strong of a wording, but this is really the only thing I think is worth considering. Either way I don't think that there being more than one judge for Gensokyo even pushes a bit at Eiki being Enmaou.
So, what do you read when you see that? Why would Eiki say, "if I were to judge you", if there is no implication of there being other judges? And no, this has nothing to do with Eiki being Enma-o, this is a tangent.
They aren't really equivalent quibbles. Having "Supreme" tacked on or not to her title just isn't that important, and is only even slightly relevant at all when assuming your conclusion.
Why wouldn't it be important? My question here is Judge of Hell, like Shrine Maiden Paradise would have suffice. Why imply more with keywords like "highest/supreme"?
We already know what judges are, as the article right before Eiki's article talks in detail about Yamas.
I understand you can technically make the argument that any judge is the supreme judge, as they are assuming the position of the 5th Yama, but my argument is that it doesn't make sense. There is no reason to add extras like that to the title.
My point is that "Eiki is especially merciful" isn't necessarily true and I don't think it's very well supported, and even if it was it doesn't stand as evidence on its own.
No, it would not be supporting evidence on its own.
If Eiki was Enmaou and was also a Jizou statue, saying "Jizou were hired to act as many new Yama" and then "Eiki used to be a Jizou statue" is not only confusing, it's deliberately misleading.
At the time of PMiSS, we do not know that Eiki used to be a Jizou statue. This is mentioned in the Oriental Sacred Place.
But as I have mentioned on my previous post, it is good evidence against Eiki being Enma-o and would be the reason to discard such a theory.
The other evidence, like Enma-o having a name and Eiki being not named so is not too important and can be reconciled. For example, Omoikane has a name and there is evidence that supports Eirin being Omoikane. Same deal with Kanako and who she is supposed to be.
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When do Touhou Ibarakasen: Wild And Horned Hermit and Touhou Suzunaan - Forbidden Scrollery usually came out?
- Are they biweekly manga or monthly?
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WaHH is serialized in the bimonthly magazine "Febri", released on the 10th of even-numbered months.
FS is serialized in the monthly magazine "Comp Ace", released on the 25th. However, it may skip issues from time to time.
There is also a special "outgoing" version of WaHH, occasionally published in the Comic REX magazine. It has not been translated into English, and not collected into the single volume releases, but that's no a great loss: it reads like lighthearted comedy fanfiction about what happens around the WaHH main chapters. I suspect it's written by the artist herself.
Are they biweekly manga or monthly?
The only reason manga can come out weekly or biweekly is due to the studio system, where an artist employs an army of assistants. As far as I know, none of the official Touhou manga artists have assistants, so even a monthly serialization can be difficult to maintain.
Also considering that the FS artist is only 19 years old, and the WaHH artist might be still in college, too...
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3 pages of Shikieiki
So, what was the question again? Has it been answered or not?
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It really does sometimes feel like some questions bring bit of a long discussion. Just saying my opinion.
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It seems like this was kinda a joke but I still have a good answer. Just take the sprite of your choice to get an estimate for the hitbox size to character size ratio, then you'll find out exactly how big it is.
That being said I always thought the hitbox was pretty much the entire person. I figured the small hitbox was an abstraction for any convulsions that your character would do in obvious attempts not to get hit, i.e. rolling onto one's side to get into a tight space between two bullets. The reason arms aren't part of the hitbox is because if a bullet is about to hit a character, they just move their arm.
Adding on top of this, I would think that the hitbox is just a representation of the top-down version of the character. In the games, you see the heroine dodging bullets head first to make the sprite look better, but in reality, she's probably going to stand (or fly) perpendicular to the plane of bullets we see.
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So, what was the question again? Has it been answered or not?
The original question was about if Yamas could boss over Kishins. I said they couldn't since I thought they were on the same rank, Starxsword disagreed and then it eventually evolved into trying to determinate if there's any difference between the terms "Yama" and "Judge" (related to the original question considering the wording in the Yama article) and how many of them exist (tangentially related since Starx's original position was that Yama related only to the Ten Kings IIRC and since they created the whole thing they'd command the Kishin) and if Eiki is a specific King (I don't remember how this started) and here we are.
So, no actually, the original question wasn't answered, since we never really determinated if Yamas can boss Kishin around or not.
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So, no actually, the original question wasn't answered, since we never really determinated if Yamas can boss Kishin around or not.
Thanks. And from where I sit, it looks like we've reached a stalemate on this question, if we haven't been able to provide a clear, simple answer within the last few pages of discussion.
Personally, I'd recommend either letting this go with "No one knows for sure" or starting a whole new thread on this otherwise interesting discussion, because right now it just looks like wheels are spinning but going nowhere.
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...Okay, I had to laugh the fact that the original question pretty fell out of your conversation.
If you ask me, I think best way of approaching this question after your converstation would be if Yamas are not the ones to boss kishins around, then who are the ones who give them the commands? Unless that had been brought up before because didn't read, lol. Then again (in my opinion, don't take it personally), it might be best to drop the thing all together.
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The original question was about if Yamas could boss over Kishins. I said they couldn't since I thought they were on the same rank, Starxsword disagreed and then it eventually evolved into trying to determinate if there's any difference between the terms "Yama" and "Judge" (related to the original question considering the wording in the Yama article) and how many of them exist (tangentially related since Starx's original position was that Yama related only to the Ten Kings IIRC and since they created the whole thing they'd command the Kishin) and if Eiki is a specific King (I don't remember how this started) and here we are.
So, no actually, the original question wasn't answered, since we never really determinated if Yamas can boss Kishin around or not.
I thought I covered a lot of the corrections back here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13761.msg994434.html#msg994434).
While in the Ministry the Ten Kings may be considered the "top", the judgements of all of the other judges have the same authority. All of the judges are considered to be called Yama, so there is no difference between the terms. The kishin chiefs are not judges, but I don't think they're actually ordered around per se, they just do their jobs by communicating with the Yama and other who work in the Ministry. The whole concept of there being a "rank" as if it were a hierarchy seems unnecessary besides each Yama commanding some shinigami and kishin chiefs commanding some other oni.
The only thing that wasn't cleared up was whether or not Eiki is the original Enmaou, which currently doesn't even seem like a point of contention; just a theory that doesn't seem to have enough evidence to stand.
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So, no actually, the original question wasn't answered, since we never really determinated if Yamas can boss Kishin around or not.
The answer is yes, Yamas can order Kishin around. But not in the sense of it being a direct order. Think of it like this, Yamas are the judges, Kishin are the enforcers. The judge says, so and so is past their life span, so Kishin go after so and so. For example, Seiga.
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I'm not sure whether it is the appropriate place to ask those questions but anyway.
- Can anyone tell me what this video is about (what is she saying?) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvb3nPuEs6k
- Also what the English name of that comedy video and whether there is an eng sub. version of that video out there?
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First of all, the video is base on a certain meme (more info here (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/kyu-kyu-kyu-nya-dance-きゅっきゅっきゅっニャー) ). Second, most of the dialogue is spelling out the character names with other jokes in it. I unfortunaly have any translated version of this video but I swear I have seen something. But if you can somehow write kanjis, this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smKjCni1P4I) has bit of a "lyrics" to it (Warning, lots of random dissonant shouting, if you have headphones don't turn them up too loud)
[ruro]edited for clarity's sake[/ruro]
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Would real touhou fans see stuff like this as:
http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/230072?tags=kochiya_sanae+dead
A. Cool
B. Funny
C. Gross
D. Just plain fucking stupid
I just want to know.
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real touhou fans
I wonder what that's supposed to mean here.
To answer, probably a D from me.
(lol those tags.)
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Seriously, Reimu wouldn't stoop low to doing that so, this warrants a big fat D from me.
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Greetings Shrinemaideniers, I have a query for you.
<Tengukami> Hi, "queries", and other miscellaneous questions go in the Miscellaneous Questions thread. Please familiarize yourself with the site to understand where things are posted.
So like, we know that ZUN's the character designer when he's in charge of drawing in the games and such (Him being in charge of everything and stuff), but what about the characters who's debuts weren't drawn by him? like, were the Mischevious Fairies designed by Makoto Hirasaka? like-wise was Kasen designed by Aya Azuma? etc?
If I'm not mistaken ZUN designs the new characters for Alphes to draw in the Tasofro games, cause he did that character model dealie for Suika, but is this the case for the comic characters as well?
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There's ZUN art of Tenshi, though the wiki doesn't have it (I think) and I lost the link. She's also Tasofro, though. I don't recall ever seeing any ZUN art of the comic characters off the top of my head.
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There's Toyohime art too.
(http://i.imgur.com/j7Bxy3r.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/cBz3U5y.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/x1hRlyn.jpg)
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Short answer: yes, all characters are designed by ZUN.
Long answer: in those cases where a character will debut through another artist, he always had the new character's design concept already in mind, however, it would still take another artist to draw it, and the design often has to be simplified due to the practicality of the media (fighting games or manga), so he would spend a lot of time discussing with the artist, and the artist would iterate on their design until he was satisfied.
This is based on his discussion about the design process of Rinnosuke, the fighting game characters and Kosuzu. I'm sure he also said similar things about the fairies and Kasen somewhere.
So like, we know that ZUN's the character designer when he's in charge of drawing in the games and such (Him being in charge of everything and stuff), but what about the characters who's debuts weren't drawn by him? like, were the Mischevious Fairies designed by Makoto Hirasaka?
Actually the first three fairies manga was drawn by Matsukura Nemu.
For the fairies, the Fairy Wars endings are drawn by ZUN; at least two additional pieces of artwork can also be found on the web.
Sunny Milk, for second issue of Comp Ace - this was back in 2005, when the manga was still drawn by Matsukura:
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad70/cucuct/forum%20posts/7pCKLXIsY1xgh0jsBgAOpuEC_500_zps0a57834c.png)
Lunar Child, for 3rd anniversary of Comp Ace:
(http://abload.de/thumb/img1800gbl16.jpg) (http://abload.de/image.php?img=img1800gbl16.jpg)
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i unironically love zun's art, at least when it's like the toyohime and lunar child art here, and the various other hand-drawn works he's put out
even the marisa he spontaneously drew from nothing for the nhk interview was great
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Quick question on the artist topic: Who did the character portraits for Fairy Wars (and maybe any other art)?
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Makoto Hirasaka. The question seems loaded in that you don't seem to be aware that Fairy Wars was made as a game about the manga events. If you had seen the manga before at all it would be pretty easy to recognize this.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Strange_and_Bright_Nature_Deity
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Does anyone know approximately which time period (e.g. 2075 - 2100?) the outside world in Touhou live in, as from the 13.5th official game?
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Does anyone know approximately which time period (e.g. 2075 - 2100?) the outside world in Touhou live in, as from the 13.5th official game?
What do you mean? The setting of Touhou is set in the present day. HM takes place in spring 128, which is spring 2013 in the outside world. The stories revolving around Maribel and Renko take place "in the near future".
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According to Sekibanki's profile, HM takes place in summer (of 2013). The religious war is heating up just as we speak.
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Well, not that it matters much. HM was released on the 26th of May, which may or may not be considered summer.
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According to Sekibanki's profile, HM takes place in summer (of 2013). The religious war is heating up just as we speak.
Strictly speaking Sekibanki's profile only states that HM takes place in the summer preceding DDC. The 2013 comes from elsewhere (Tasofro's decision to hardcode in the 2013 in the right-hand side of the newspaper articles; I am not aware of any other evidence, unless you have some?).
Interesting bit of trivia: every Touhou fighter takes place during summer.
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Also, the only game in the Windows series that doesn't follow the chronological order so far is the Fairy Wars.
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Strictly speaking Sekibanki's profile only states that HM takes place in the summer preceding DDC.
True, that's why I put "2013" in parentheses.
The 2013 comes from elsewhere (Tasofro's decision to hardcode in the 2013 in the right-hand side of the newspaper articles; I am not aware of any other evidence, unless you have some?).
I don't think the newspaper's 2013 is hardcoded?
No, there's no hard evidence that HM is set in 2013. Although placing HM and DDC in 2012 or 2014 would make the game timeline severely out of step with the SoPM/manga timeline (SoPM took place in winter of 2011/2012; the manga has been in sync with the seasons). It just doesn't seem like a sensible decision.
There is also arguably foreshadowing for DDC in FS Ch 8 (Reimu's gohan hit on Marisa's forehead a little too accurately
).
Well, not that it matters much. HM was released on the 26th of May, which may or may not be considered summer.
It actually sort of matters. Japan's early summer is marked by the monsoon season, which generally falls in June. WaHH Ch 17 takes place in monsoon season, and FS Ch 8 takes place after it (Clarste suggested it may even be caused by WaHH 17 - Reimu may have caught her cold while standing in the rain
). Since there's no clear sign of the "festival" that caused the religious war, the war has either not begun, or at most is only getting started at the time of FS Ch 8.
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It actually sort of matters. In Japan's early summer, there is the monsoon season with continuous rainfall, generally in June. WaHH Ch 17 takes place in monsoon season, and FS Ch 8 takes place after it (Clarste suggested it may even be caused by WaHH 17 - Reimu may have caught her cold when standing in the rain). Since there's no clear sign of the "festival" that caused the religious war, the war has either not begun, or at most is only getting started at the time of FS Ch 8.
In terms of answering Biakmon's question, it doesn't matter at all. Touhou takes place synchronously with the present of the outside world. Not in the past, not in the future.
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My point is, only the slice-of-life stories can afford to sync up the real world time of their release and in-universe time to the season. Larger releases, i.e. the Bougetsushou project, artbooks and games, by necessity of their creative process, cannot sync up this closely.
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Now I've got one question for you. It involves Kaguya and a speculation whether or not it is her true name. As we know from the original folktale, Taketori Monogatari, it was the old bamboo cutter and his wife who have given her the name Kaguya after finding her and taking her in. But what of her real parents? What name had they given to her? It would be highly unlikely for the old couple of humans in the story to give her the same name as was given to her by her biological Lunarian parents. SSiB further elaborates that Eirin's real name is not Eirin, it's simply a substitute so that the impure tongues of Earthlings would even be able to pronounce it correctly. If that's the case with all Lunarians in the series, then it's quite probable that Kaguya is not Kaguya's real name.
Then we still have Sakuya and Yukari whose real names are left to our imagination. It wouldn't surprise me that much if Kaguya was in the same club.
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I guess one could go and check how often Eirin refers to Kaguya as Kaguya (and for curiosity, how often does Kaguya refer to Eirin as Eirin?). I wouldn't be too surprised if Eirin's only ever referred to her as "the princess", but it's been a long time since I've read through official works with Eirin and Kaguya.
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I was confused with the time setting of the outside world due to Maribel and Renko but thanks for the clarification.
I am reading Touhou SoPm for quite sometime but something bother me.
- What do they mean when they say that it is a official touhou "fanbook"?
- Just to make sure, is it an official book created/written by ZUN?
- Can normal youkai (not spiritual type like ghost) e.g Tengu, Kappa and etc. be kill by physical means (like beheading someone with a weapon...) "in Gensokyo"?
- If yes, what do you think about youkai still living in the outside world?
I understand basically when people stop believe in there existence they weaken and then eventual disappear but is that all.
What if a human of the outside world attack a youkai (human in appearance) still living in that world using physical means (e.g guns or knife...)?
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- What do they mean when they say that it is a official touhou "fanbook"?
I suppose it means "a book written for Touhou fans", not by the fans, but that's just my speculation. Yes, the book IS written by ZUN/Akyuu.
- What do they mean when they say that it is a official touhou "fanbook"?
It depends on the type of youkai. In ZUN's emails http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN/ZUN%27s_E-mails (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN/ZUN%27s_E-mails), he explains that they can recover even from severe injuries, but can be killed by a spiritual attack.
An entry in PMiSS about youkai says: "*Youkai have stronger bodies than humans, so even if they're split into five parts, they heal right away. "
Spiritual attacks can be fatal to them, but no source claims that a youkai can be killed by a physical attack. Perhaps they can, but it's definitely harder than by using magic/faith/charms etc.
As for youkai living in the outside world, well we only got hints that such youkai still exist. Mamizou was doing pretty well in the outside world until she got "an invite" from Nue. Whether she got stronger when she arrived in Gensokyo is unknown.
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I'm curious ???:
Am I the only one who thought Kosuzu was PC98 character?
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I'm curious ???:
Am I the only one who thought Kosuzu was PC98 character?
Where did you get the idea?
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Now I've got one question for you. It involves Kaguya and a speculation whether or not it is her true name.
It isn't just that, I've actually mentioned before that the name Houraisan is nonsensical for a Lunarian princess to have, and is likely a name she took on or was given to her.
Where did you get the idea?
by not being familiar with the pc98 games nor scrollery, i assume
I understand basically when people stop believe in there existence they weaken and then eventual disappear but is that all.
What if a human of the outside world attack a youkai (human in appearance) still living in that world using physical means (e.g guns or knife...)?
This is sort of a question that doesn't need to be posed, or rather can't be posed. While it's clear that some youkai do live in the outside world still, you have to consider that nobody really knows this. It's unfalsifiable and unconfirmable. If a "youkai" posing as human would get shot, they would die: and then obviously they weren't really a youkai in the first place. The youkai exist only where nobody can tell they exist. The tanuki get away with this very easily because they have the excuse of shapeshifting, so you could easily say that there are many tanuki living naturally among the humans. But you'd never be able to find one. So there is no question of "what if a youkai got shot"; if you could examine something to that extent, it wouldn't be a youkai.
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This is sort of a question that doesn't need to be posed, or rather can't be posed. While it's clear that some youkai do live in the outside world still, you have to consider that nobody really knows this. It's unfalsifiable and unconfirmable. If a "youkai" posing as human would get shot, they would die: and then obviously they weren't really a youkai in the first place. The youkai exist only where nobody can tell they exist. The tanuki get away with this very easily because they have the excuse of shapeshifting, so you could easily say that there are many tanuki living naturally among the humans. But you'd never be able to find one. So there is no question of "what if a youkai got shot"; if you could examine something to that extent, it wouldn't be a youkai.
That's a good general purpose answer, applicable to a lot of "close examination" questions.
However, regarding the original question, stories of youkai being hurt while in human guise already exist, and are still being written by modern writers.
To overgeneralize it, what may kill a human often won't kill a youkai. They may disappear in a flash, or expose themselves in some even more dramatic way; more tactful youkai may fake death, or drop a fake human shell. I can even imagine a particularly tough but insensitive youkai not realizing it has a bullet in its chest for some time.
Because the original question was asking about youkai in the modern world, the more dramatic kinds of exit that create many witnesses would be unlikely - they'll probably only have the power to escape in less flashy manners, enough to go down in record as unexplained mysteries, but not much else. Or they've already turned fully human, and die as humans.
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True, that's why I put "2013" in parentheses. I don't think the newspaper's 2013 is hardcoded?
The top one isn't but the right-hand one is. You can see clearly if you change the system time to a different year e.g. 1987, the 1987 is on top of a 2013.
Incidentally, you mentioned some time ago that DDC was set in autumn because ZUN put maple leaves in the charging animation. Were there any other reasons for this or is this the only hint as to what season DDC was set in?
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Re: Kaguya's name: There's a brief scene in SSiB where the new Reisen talks to Eirin and Eirin's "name" is written as a bunch of unintelligible scribbles. The impression I got from that was that she has a "true name" that they're hiding from us for whatever reason. Anyway, this makes it seem fairly likely to me that Kaguya is also using an alias.
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Of course, now I wonder why Reisen still kept her real name after she left the Moon. Is the name Reisen "earthling" enough to them so that Eirin just needed to give her a surname and people just think she might be an Earth Rabbit youkai.
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Can someone explain (summaries) what happen in chapter 5 of CoLA at the end?
Did Sakuya restore the broken cup to it's original state or what and if so how did she do it?
That cup was already broken, before her arrival in the store.
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Eirin gave Reisen the kanji (鈴仙) to write her name with, as well as a surname Udongein. That's how they made her name to appear more earth-like.
For the record, Eirin and Kaguya just call each other "Kaguya" and "Eirin".
Re: Kaguya's name: There's a brief scene in SSiB where the new Reisen talks to Eirin and Eirin's "name" is written as a bunch of unintelligible scribbles. The impression I got from that was that she has a "true name" that they're hiding from us for whatever reason. Anyway, this makes it seem fairly likely to me that Kaguya is also using an alias.
In the original text, it's written as 八意??. It... was an extremely clumsy reveal without proper setup.
Incidentally, you mentioned some time ago that DDC was set in autumn because ZUN put maple leaves in the charging animation. Were there any other reasons for this or is this the only hint as to what season DDC was set in?
DDC has plenty of seasonal symbols.
Falling maple leaves can be seen in several occasions during the story, from in-universe to "now loading" and music room.
The entire Stage 3 is a callback to IN; the full moon indicates that DDC, just as IN, took place during the harvest moon festival (the full moon of middle autumn).
Kagerou's dress is based on Hanafuda's "Pampas Grass and the Full Moon" card, an autumn card.
I'm now hijacking the topic to do an update of my "eight point star" symbol observation.
It's the same symbol that rotates on PC when you focus. It's also the background of ESoD difficulty selection screen. Another special appearance of the symbol is in IN. When a bosss charges up for a special attack in IN, the special effect is many "snowflake" symbols gathering on the character.
SaBND also referenced Yukari's symbol, when she was getting into a battle position to test the fairies' strength.
My personal theory is, this is the symbol of spell card rules.
In addition to the above, the symbol also appears:
In PCB, while the Stage 1-4 characters explode into snowflakes, their charge-up effects are not snowflakes, but this symbol, same as the IN characters.
(BTW, in IN, Mystia and Keine also share Wriggle's "blue blinking" effect, but only in their first boss spell cards.)
In PCB, when your bomb bullets hit an enemy, the symbol will "zoom in" on the enemy. This may indicate it's a crosshairs symbol. So when you focus, crosshairs appear on your hitbox?
In PoFV, the EX attacks are transported to the opponent's by this symbol.
In Fairy Wars, it's in the center of the difficulty selection screen.
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- Can normal youkai (not spiritual type like ghost) e.g Tengu, Kappa and etc. be kill by physical means (like beheading someone with a weapon...) "in Gensokyo"?
- If yes, what do you think about youkai still living in the outside world?
Presumably, no. It is probably possible, but you need some extreme forms of physical attacks.
I understand basically when people stop believe in there existence they weaken and then eventual disappear but is that all.
What if a human of the outside world attack a youkai (human in appearance) still living in that world using physical means (e.g guns or knife...)?
The physical attack probably would do little, if assuming that is a youkai.
If assuming that youkai is now a human, well, it will kill them.
Did Sakuya restore the broken cup to it's original state or what and if so how did she do it?
That cup was already broken, before her arrival in the store.
Restore the broken cup? I thought it was pretty clear that she swapped the broken cup with one that isn't broken. I assume you are referring to Curiousities of Lotus Asia.
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Restore the broken cup? I thought it was pretty clear that she swapped the broken cup with one that isn't broken. I assume you are referring to Curiousities of Lotus Asia.
Thanks for the clarification, I was not sure whether she exchange it with another one or not.
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Another question I'd like clarified. How long has the Youkai Mountain been in Gensokyo? According the wiki's timeline, the comparison of Mt.Fuji and Yatsugatake and the subsequent destruction of the latter took place circa 200k - 250k years ago. The Great Hakurei Boundary is just 128 years old, its first recorded layer being placed some 500 years ago by Yukari in the so-called Youkai Expansion Project. It therefore comes as a logical assumption that the Youkai Mountain in Gensokyo is not older than 128 or 500 years. I wonder why Iwanaga-hime has let another goddess set up shrine on her mountain. Then again, seeing as how she executed no retribution against her jealous younger sister, I guess she's not the type who goes looking for trouble.
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I've noticed the reoccurrence of this symbol too (I can't remember where off the top of my head).
[the symbol is] also the background of ESoD difficulty selection screen.
I don't see how this supports your theory.
I'd only think that if the symbol was the "symbol of spell card rules" it would appear even more so I"m not convinced. Has it appeared in more recent games?
EDIT
Yeah, in PCB, doesn't this symbol appear around Yukari during her entire battle? Also, around the character when you focus (I think you got that one).
DDC has plenty of seasonal symbols.
Falling maple leaves can be seen in several occasions during the story, from in-universe to "now loading" and music room.
The entire Stage 3 is a callback to IN; the full moon indicates that DDC, just as IN, took place during the harvest moon festival (the full moon of middle autumn).
Kagerou's dress is based on Hanafuda's "Pampas Grass and the Full Moon" card, an autumn card.
You talk about Stage 3 and how its a call back to IN, but isn't every stage so far a call back to a previous game? Do those all have residual seasonal symbols too?
How does the full moon indicate that it's during the harvest moon festival, aren't there plenty of full moons during the year?
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Can someone explain (summaries) what happen in chapter 5 of CoLA at the end?
Did Sakuya restore the broken cup to it's original state or what and if so how did she do it?
That cup was already broken, before her arrival in the store.
She swapped it with another cup hidden in a box somewhere. So she she froze time and then rummaged around the store to find a matching cup that wasn't broken. Nothing but sleight of hand.
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She swapped it with another cup hidden in a box somewhere. So she she froze time and then rummaged around the store to find a matching cup that wasn't broken. Nothing but sleight of hand.
... and fucking time magic. It confused me because she didn't just look around the store herself to begin with.
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Deceitless sleight of hand. In regards to her having looked around earlier, the impression I got was that she intentionally set up this little trick ahead of time. I don't think she's quite so stupid as to seriously believe that Remilia was asking for a broken cup. She was just playing a little prank.
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Deceitless sleight of hand (what's the point of that?). In regards to her having looked around earlier, the impression I got was that she intentionally set up this little trick ahead of time. I don't think she's quite so stupid as to seriously believe that Remilia was asking for a broken cup. She was just playing a little prank.
Seems like an awful lot of work but that may be the right answer. Personally I like the idea of a Dr. Manhattan-ish mind set but I see why that can't happen.
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If any one has noticed (which I ma sure you have), Utsuho's spellcard background has a nuclear symbol with three images in it. The first one is a galaxy, the second one is a cat and the third one is... something. What is it, metal? And why would it be in there?
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If any one has noticed (which I ma sure you have), Utsuho's spellcard background has a nuclear symbol with three images in it. The first one is a galaxy, the second one is a cat and the third one is... something. What is it, metal? And why would it be in there?
I got really curious so I took the symbol's sprite, removed everything but the weird part, and used it on google's image search. I think I found the same image that ZUN used.
It seems like it's a computer chip (http://getnews.jp/img/archives/key_spc.jpg), but I can't tell what the possible connection between it and Utsuho is, since all the pages that turned up are in japanese. As far as google translate could tell me, it has something to do with supercomputers.
This (https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZissorwmWGzrrtJzRD_1aAI7xHt7Uy9vmfNJPjP4DIbyWPEEFqExufIjZnnBuuQFcGg0yctgXw4SGxkZFqSAWQwPDBZD-z8mHDc3KuMzVjpFmNh9aENljEufj9jBJx-X6vSNC6iPEcTu4mv9xH7AuDUTTDOdwKlsiKRA529oZJhUTR5vQEoANdU-YByvmq3ypVgXTfuBTL7EqNEoQDwiXfcdj3g8x3B8fPS-raUBrevXFOyaiG7SFyU2IcPyuBPgDBfCOav5o5l-dc--qe2O9QMIrr1MeRRSvyFlWODIW9HUPcjm562Ou6Ua_1izLZHf14VZc4t6fStc093eqEdyCr4F-lDQ582KvJdkcT2WhAPMKeVgQLDPpKSCxUDrGcPQxpZrYxQsNb_1c9opBnyWzQivHwpxMLNhu9zfY7XyVCRYrLWrdQkGANNvyfhd9sibmCpd5cZ99xfJd4BKLa3lIjqb_1SQiRqPJhvgxmL684C7dvj4jqUY_16TYZ-2Hh9Hdy9I1qjVRX6NKDyOgzRenUbtA8lAFzXJV_1odL7dO0rYHeZZcZOQz9qxhXClSQH7iQjuS_1qJ_1V0xtvRKUmTCuxqarbwoEM33NSYLLeOWE9y8lGDcDefiwTUchzsNoxi6EoDaJveUGWi5Jh5xZ27tVct4ns7QUVeVU3J15s-Q5Bof5xlupnm_1sfX0Zt_1AiAIYi9xYz49rF0s6IXQKGnbshVbf4lYMmnbIIn2Yzvg0UPddx5R7CoiVDBIZTmFaXj3qSktCvFrNRQgpLkbwlxQVIdTiZoTLjA8LH5ePDlUqBFcSmuQHzWK2XbuvTGq525d3ZWg-FLi5eviE0fl9mJdgd9eS84d4az67YdieL17kojA6kdzUJczWW8FuntNsg47AoT3Du8-AlJCn9GS2j43Xtrk5hKNbiVLuyz7eT99hugaOXDoFFLqqHbkMszMgeND1ZodUf97tbBjjjrTShjZ_1FlSO_1OFDmPa6Ob9RHJPWbTP1qRis2oXwXGn19nS0GcCKpchs5tJMaXGrWisLP7ggp9FXa3zlOd6E9kOc0IamnJMGv-dxEPRKtyP8g135Sp5sAw5_1axHmvjnyl6V81ZigZG0blD29t66SU1qw8Eq-xyMjzecmC4NG02sWWGF0QjcxRPpSSgU9qLyyKxaRjnTjAmO1UZ7_1LksJ0PoE798jZDP5SmdC-v6zppKHmUrrbs1jrM2Sz0u_1u4fhPqeYd6zZTxPoEzqdoWp_17THsSzDUN9HsUf2uyczMyua5c&hl=pt-BR&bih=643&biw=1366) is the search that I made, by the way.
EDIT: Here, look at them side by side:
(http://s21.postimg.org/jcsvgp9h3/Untitled.png)
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Pretty sure it's a reference to Kanako.
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Pretty sure it's a reference to Kanako.
Or maybe you're just overthinking it. It might as well be reference to the development of an atomic bomb. The cat could be a reference to Orin and the Galaxy to Okuu herself (sky) and the inner side of her cape. Or maybe ZUN just put in some random images and we're seeing references when there might not be any.
And seems my last question about Youkai Mountain was unanswered/unnoticed.
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Or maybe you're just overthinking it.
Saying that we are over-thinking something is a non-starter. We tend to assume that ZUN is not just doing things at random.
For reference here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,13761.msg997487.html#msg997487) is Fonzi's question.
While we are on the subject of Youkai Mountain I had a question too. PMiSS said that Youkai Mountain might be hollow and contain a society of all manner of Youkai. Has this idea ever been explored more? I know it's not talking about Old Hell, because while the bounds of a mountain may be fuzzy, I don't think it extends out of Gensokyo.
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Or maybe you're just overthinking it. It might as well be reference to the development of an atomic bomb.
Maybe it's a reference to technology in general.
The cat could be a reference to Orin0
Could also, as the wiki says, be a reference to the irradiated wild cats that live in Prypat, the city where Chernobyl workers lived. Since Okuu's foot encasing is a reference to Chernobyl's "elephant foot", it's possible.
While we are on the subject of Youkai Mountain I had a question too. PMiSS said that Youkai Mountain might be hollow and contain a society of all manner of Youkai. Has this idea ever been explored more? I know it's not talking about Old Hell, because while the bounds of a mountain may be fuzzy, I don't think it extends out of Gensokyo.
It's probably just rumors that go around in the human village. Seeing as how those don't define youkai anymore (in Gensokyo, I mean), it's unlikely they're true; kappa were shown to be terrible at working together on large projects in WaHH, so I don't think they'd be able to build something like that. And the tengu live on the mountain, not inside it. Other youkai are mostly solitary, so unless there's another communitary species in there, I'd consider the whole thing to just be an overblown rumor.
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I know of two references to the fabled Youkai Mountain industrial zone.
MoF prologue: "sound of distant of machines... perhaps the tengu's factories have awoken".
Soku vs. dialog, Sakuya wins Aya: "Where do you do that movable type printing? That mountain isn't that big anyway."
> The chip image
When it comes to imagery used in Touhou games, there IS a risk of overthinking things. Every piece of art ZUN and his friends did not create is a stock image pulled from some image library. So is this chip image. I believe it's here to represent "technology", that's all.
I don't see how this supports your theory.
I'd only think that if the symbol was the "symbol of spell card rules" it would appear even more so I"m not convinced. Has it appeared in more recent games?
That's just a pet theory, not a serious opinion. It hasn't been used in other places since MoF.
It's probably meant to be crosshairs.
You talk about Stage 3 and how its a call back to IN, but isn't every stage so far a call back to a previous game? Do those all have residual seasonal symbols too?
In terms of DDC's own season, the maple leaves in interface and throughout the stages should be able to establish the season as autumn.
However, you are right about the non-autumn seasonal symbols in Stage 1 and 2. The lotus is a symbol of summer, and the willow is a symbol of spring. So, Stage 3 in itself is not evidence for the game to be set in autumn, since the stages seem to be partially themed around the seasons. (Stage 1 is definitely referencing EoSD, but I'm not certain Stage 2 is about PCB.)
How does the full moon indicate that it's during the harvest moon festival, aren't there plenty of full moons during the year?
In East Asian culture, the moon is a symbol of autumn. The harvest moon festival, and the viewing of harvest moon, is attached extremely important cultural values. There are 12 full moons a year, but this one is the one that matters.
Previously I used the term "middle autumn" (the festival's Chinese name), but the festival generally falls in September, early autumn. IN is established as taking place in early autumn. Since the lotuses are still in bloom, and the willow leaves are still green, so is DDC.
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Can anyone tell me what the english name of those 2 touhou doujinshi, please?
- Kokuu no Utsuho dai Ichi wa Itsuwari no Taiyou
- Kokuu no Utsuho dai san wa Aibetsuriku
Also can someone also explain to me more clearly how does Flandre power exactly works? (The one that she use to destroy a meteorite like in touhou BAiJR)
Did Suika Ibuki really blow up a part of the Moon?
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Also can someone also explain to me more clearly how does Flandre power exactly works? (The one that she use to destroy a meteorite like in touhou BAiJR)
The way her power works is first she finds the points on the objects which have the most tension built into it (referenced as "eyes) and pouring her power into them. Then she can move the "eyes" into her hand and crush the "eyes" by clenching her fist, destoying the object.
On Suika, she didn't actually shatter the Moon, as the Moon people in Gensokyo see int he sky is actually the reflection of the real Moon. What she did was she shattered the heaven to make it look like she broke the moon.
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Okay, so in Touhou we have Makai, Former Hell, Hell of Blazing Fires (located within formal Hell), and Hokkai (inside of Makai). So I have two questions. Are any of these the current and actual Hell? And do we know why they stopped using the old one?
Also, I know they have a reincarnation thing going on, but then why did they need a Hell in the first place? Gragh!
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New Hell has nothing to do with Makai (a realm created by Shinki that has nothing to do with the afterlife, at least during the PC-98 era; unknown if this info is still valid for the Windows era, but nothing revealed thus far contradicts it) or the Old Hell. We have yet to see New Hell in any of the games, unless you count the Hell route in HRtP as taking place in New Hell. Since it's the very first game in the series, and it lacks any meaningful dialogue whatsoever, there's no way to know for sure if that's the case.
Old Hell was going through financial issues (or overpopulation problems, or both, IIRC), so they had to transfer Hell to a new location.
I'm not sure what you mean by your third question. Plenty of religions that believe in a Hell also have reincarnation, including some branches of christianity. Hell punishes sinners, or, better, as Eiki says, exists to scare people into not sinning in the first place.
I remember reading somewhere that people that fall into Hell or are thrown from a shinigami's boat are permanently removed from the circle of reincarnation, but since I can't find where I read that, I must have dreamed it up or something.
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Oh, okay. With all the demons and Lucifer motif Shinki has going on, I guess I'd just assumed Makai was supposed to be a form of Hell.
And as for my other question, I could have sworn that someone had said something along the lines of "The Yama's love you enough that they'll keep reincarnating you until you get it right", in which case there would be no need for a Hell. But as you said, if it can't be found I must have dreamed it up. Anyways, thank you.
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IIRC the hell functions like this in canon: only extremely evil souls are condemned to hell. They can leave hell if they repent, but the majority of them does not. They ended up converting into heavy metals (WaHH Vol 1).
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I've seen someone mention that Toyosatomimi no Miko, who is based on Prince Shotoku, was never considered male in Touhou before she went to "sleep". I was just wondering... what proof is there that confirms this?
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Her TD profile, which talks about her backstory, refers to her as female. The only time Prince Shotoku is mentioned as male is
a textbook in Sanae's ending
.
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Eh... Not really convincing enough. For one, I'm not sure whether Japanese even differentiate gender when they talk about someone. Whether they have any "he" and "she". Might as well, be the translators of the profile trying to give her one definite gender and since Miko is a girl in Touhou, so they referred to her as "she" in all of her profile.
Then there's the case of Akyuu, whose prevoius incarnations are strongly implied to have been both male and female. So why couldn't the prince genderswap at some point?
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The Japanese language prefers to omit the subjects of a sentence as much as possible, and use pronouns as little as possible. However Miko's profile specifically used the female third person pronoun 彼女 "kanojo". In other words, ZUN could have avoided mentioning Miko's gender, but he chose to always refer to Miko as "she".
I don't consider this to be the definite evidence that Miko was always a woman, but it is a meaningful choice on the writer's part.
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Absolutely no one says anything regarding Miko once having being a man. There is no mention of gender-swapping occurring anywhere in canon. You'd think that something like that would at least have a comment on her profile, yet it's never mentioned. Kanako already existed back when Miko was born and never says anything, Akyuu doesn't mention anything about it in Miko's SoPM profile. The only one that ever notes the discrepancy is Sanae, and she's from the outside world, where Shoutoku is not even considered to have been real, so one shouldn't take the fact that her school textbook (which even under other circumstances would be very unreliable) says that Miko was male as good evidence.
Above all, I just don't see any in-story reason for why Shoutoku would change his gender, if he was once a man. It just... doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't be to hide who she is since she boasts about it all the time, and unless Shoutoku was secretly transexual, I have absolutely no clue why a nobleman from ancient Japan would want to become a woman.
I'd think that the people saying that "Miko was once a male" is canon are the ones that need to provide some solid evidence for it, not the other way around. Because nothing really points towards it other than "real world Shoutoku was a man", and we all know Zun isn't one to strictly adhere to what mythology says (the basis for the four devas weren't women either, for example)
Then there's the case of Akyuu, whose prevoius incarnations are strongly implied to have been both male and female.
Wait, where is this implied? Wait, nevermind, found it.
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Only thing what references Miko as he in some form would be Futo referencing her as "Crown Prince" during Youmu's story. However, I am not really going to buy that, as I am reading from wiki translation (so I am certain I can be wrong) and all the other routes has her calling Miko "Crown Princess"(again, wiki translation, so don't rage on me even if you are going to tell how it really is)
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Just because it isn't mentioned anywhere doesn't mean it cannot be that way. Was the fact that Eirin drank the Hourai Elixir mentioned in any of her profiles? No. Besides, waving SoPM around as an evidence that Akyuu doesn't mention anything about the matter is just as doubtful. I mean, it's Akyuu...
I'd think that the people saying that "Miko was once a male" is canon are the ones that need to provide some solid evidence for it, not the other way around.
Oh, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sh%C5%8Dtoku His face is on the 10 000 yen note. Not just in some unnamed textbook from Outside world that's in Sanae's possesion.
And while I am well aware that the girls like Kasen, Suika and Yuugi are based off on male legendary figures, Prince Shotoku cannot be absolutely dismissed as a figure of legends and not a historical person. The evidence provided is not enough to dismiss a theory completely, just as there isn't enough evidence to support it.
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Prince Shotoku cannot be absolutely dismissed as a figure of legends and not a historical person.
That's exactly what happened in Touhou canon. Otherwise she wouldn't be in Gensokyo. And that 10,000 yen bill was in Sanae's ending as well, so nothing new here.
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Your only evidence that Miko was a woman all the time is the lack of evidence to the contrary, so forgive me for doubting your theory, because it is a theory and nothing more. You stating that it is canon without anythng more to prove it is what's preventing me from shutting up.
I think it's just pitting one theory against another and that Miko's canonical gender in the past is questionable at best. Unless ZUN says otherwise, we are free to believe what we want if its nature is not explained well enough in canon.
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Just because it isn't mentioned anywhere doesn't mean it cannot be that way.
No, but it means that assuming otherwise is taking extra steps based on pretty much nothing.
Was the fact that Eirin drank the Hourai Elixir mentioned in any of her profiles? No.
It was mentioned in a IN ending. Miko once being male? Never mentioned anywhere outside Sanae's confusion. And again, she's from the outside, where Shoutoku is considered myth. The bill having his face, as C.Angel said, means nothing; Shoutoku is currently thought as male in the outside world, therefore it's obvious that the bill would have a man's face.
Besides, waving SoPM around as an evidence that Akyuu doesn't mention anything about the matter is just as doubtful. I mean, it's Akyuu...
I shouldn't bother with this "it's Akyuu, she's unreliable!" argument again, but... every single time she's wrong about something, it's glaringly obvious: Eirin and Kaguya are from the moon, Sakuya's past is just a bunch of theories, Mokou isn't the descendant of ninjas, Heaven's true reason for not allowing people in is their own selfshiness, etc. In other words, all the things that she get wrong are things that she has absolutely no way of really knowing (the only people that know the guys from Eientei are lunarians are the playable characters, and I don't think Mokou and Sakuya are too keen on discussing their past, for example). So, unless there's blatant evidence on her being wrong, there is no reason at all to consider her unreliable.
Furthermore, Shoutoku, in Touhou, is a historical figure, even though she's considered a legend nowadays. Akyuu is a historian. Are you really saying that she wouldn't even know the gender of that very famous emperor? Her first incarnation, all but stated to have been Hieda no Are, is from the 7/8th century. Shoutoku lived in the 5/6th century. Unless her gender was already lost merely one century after her "death", there's no way the person that wrote Japan's first historical record wouldn't know it. And since she has her ancestors memories, she'd remember that.
And while I am well aware that the girls like Kasen, Suika and Yuugi are based off on male legendary figures, Prince Shotoku cannot be absolutely dismissed as a figure of legends and not a historical person. The evidence provided is not enough to dismiss a theory completely, just as there isn't enough evidence to support it.
As C.Angel said, Shoutoku IS dismissed as a figure of legends in the Touhou universe. Which is basically what he is in our world as well. Also, bear in mind that, as far as we know, the legends of the outside world are the same as ours, so Ibaraki-douji, Shunten-doji and Hoshiguma-doji are probably thought as male too, which we know for sure isn't the case (unless they also changed genders).
The evidence you have, in-universe, is a bill that supposedly has the face of the dude, and a school textbook. Both from contemporany Japan (the yen note with Shoutoku was printed in 1957), that doesn't even believe Shoutoku existed. Add the fact that there is no good explanation as to why Shoutoku would even want to change his gender, and I hope you can understand why I find it very difficult to think of this as a valid theory.
I mean, if you want to believe that, it's fine. It's not explicitly contradicted in-universe. All I'm saying is that, at the same time, there is 0 canon evidence to support it at all, so I personally think it's overthinking it to claim that she was once male. It just raises too many questions that don't really need to be raised.
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I love it when people use Real World "evidence" to contradict something canonically true in Gensokyo.
Miko-in-Gensokyo is all girl, period. This is a non-controversy.
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I love it when people use Real World "evidence" to contradict something canonically true in Gensokyo.
Miko-in-Gensokyo is all girl, period. This is a non-controversy.
And I "love it" when people confuse "implied in canon" with "confirmed in canon". Just like you are now.
No, but it means that assuming otherwise is taking extra steps based on pretty much nothing.
I never said that Miko being male was canon. It's a theory, just as it is a theory that she might have always been female. I am not trying to prove that Miko has been male once upon a time. My only point in this argument is that you are presenting a theory as if it was a 100% undeniable fact. It is IMPLIED, yes, but that's about it.
It was mentioned in a IN ending.
Yes, but I said Eirin's PROFILE, not her IN's ending. Besides, it's only for one specific team. HM may be far from the last game where we see Miko, and who are we to declare that ZUN might not ever bring any "surprsies" in her future profiles/endings? So yes, I dare say it is still controversary.
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I personally don't think it's a controversy at all, but as I said,
if you want to believe that, it's fine. It's not explicitly contradicted in-universe.
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Fonz, the thing is, Miko is female in Gensokyo. Your theory is based on stuff not in Gensokyo. So while you can bang on this drum all day if you want, without evidence from Gensokyo of Miko's maleness, it's empty speculation and unhelpful as an answer.
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I'll add that some of us have been thru this a million times with Wriggle and the "female fireflies don't fly" thing. Having unprovable theories is fun. Trying to force them in a Q&A thread, not so much.
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Fonz, the thing is, Miko is female in Gensokyo. Your theory is based on stuff not in Gensokyo. So while you can bang on this drum all day if you want, without evidence from Gensokyo of Miko's maleness, it's empty speculation and unhelpful as an answer.
You must have skipped this part then.
I never said that Miko being male was canon. It's a theory, just as it is a theory that she might have always been female. I am not trying to prove that Miko has been male once upon a time. My only point in this argument is that you are presenting a theory as if it was a 100% undeniable fact. It is IMPLIED, yes, but that's about it.
It's not MY theory. It's a theory that's been floating around Touhou fandom since TD. i'm not vindicating or trying to deny neither. I just have this knee-jerk urge tot call out people when they present something as canon when it's just so vague. Miko is female in Touhou, that hasn't escaped me and frankly I'm comfortable whith both theories.
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And I think it'd make a fine topic for its own thread.
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There should be literally zero controversy.
The whole point of having Miko be female is to point at the very fact that the outside world is becoming skeptical of Prince Shotoku's existence. This is not an issue of "ZUN letting us think what we want"; Sagus is covering this well enough, but is missing that all of this is done very much on purpose. All of Sanae's interactions with Miko are very directly about the fact that Sanae, in the outside world, learned that Prince Shotoku was male from textbooks and having his face on the 10000 yen note. However, the outside world becoming skeptical of Shotoku's existence is why she ended up in Gensokyo; as something that "didn't exist" moving to the place where things that "don't exist" go to "exist". From Miko and party's point of view, she was always female, because she was female in "reality". The fact is that every instance of Shotoku's existence being recorded in history is considered flawed. This includes, very specifically, the recollection that Shotoku was male. As evidenced by Miko's entrance into Gensokyo, the history is wrong. Sanae's confusion is there to highlight the discrepancy between history and "reality". That's the joke. ZUN writes Shotoku as actually female to drill home the fact that the recorded history of Shotoku is starting to be considered a fabrication. This whole literary dynamic is essentially one of the main reasons Miko/Shotoku is even a character to begin with.
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I dunno, Drake, her arrival, or should I say revival in Gensokyo comes almost too conveniently just after Byakuren sets up temple right on top of her mausoleum. If your point was valid, it'd mean that the outside world stopped believing in Shotoku's existence just recently, which I don't see as much plausible. Sure, ZUN could be playing with that fact, but no matter what canon fact you point at, they are still too insufficient to silence the opposing theory for good.
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Actually, going by her profile, Miko was inside Gensokyo before Byakuren built her temple ("Since there weren't any temples in Gensokyo at that time (...)"); in fact, the whole reason Byakuren chose that spot was because she sensed something sealed down there, IIRC. Miko revived soon after because, as her profile says ("Would Miko let herself be held back by a Buddhist monk once more? Or would she fight that monk?"), she would not allow a buddhist to foil her again.
If I'm not mistaken, in one ending she says that she has known Reimu since before she was even born (no clue on how that works), which would mean that she entered Gensokyo quite a while ago. Why she didn't choose to awaken before? I dunno, but her profile says that "she prepared for her resurrection to proceed whenever she felt it was necessary", so maybe she simply wasn't in a hurry. Then a bunch of buddhists installed themselves on her roof and she got annoyed enough to get out of bed.
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I dunno, Drake, her arrival, or should I say revival in Gensokyo comes almost too conveniently just after Byakuren sets up temple right on top of her mausoleum.
This is actually addressed in SoPM and somewhat during 10D. Byakuren landing her temple on the mausoleum in order to keep the seal in check, was the direct cause of her awakening and the seal being broken, as Byakuren wasn't strong enough to keep up the seal, possibly because it wasn't very well-made to begin with. EDIT: Oh, misread. Yeah, she was in Gensokyo for a long while before her revival.
If your point was valid, it'd mean that the outside world stopped believing in Shotoku's existence just recently, which I don't see as much plausible.
We haven't stopped believing in his existence, first of all, even though yes it's a recent thing. This is just the reason why ZUN decided to write about it. Miko was "dead" long, long before historians started questioning Shotoku's existence. The period in which Miko transferred into Gensokyo was the period in which the actual history of her existence was lost and confused. The "actual" Miko was forgotten in the stead of Shotoku, who was written to be more of a godlike figure, even. Miko herself (the actual Shotoku) being forgotten would have happened a long time ago.
Sure, ZUN could be playing with that fact, but no matter what canon fact you point at, they are still too insufficient to silence the opposing theory for good.
That's not how theories and speculation work. There is no need to "silence" the opposing theory. That's like saying after making measurements of the earth's circumference through many different ways we still need photographic evidence to "silence" the flat earthers for good because the evidence we have against it and for another theory is insufficient. To ignore this very, very clear device is to ignore what's actually happening in Japan, ignore the way ZUN always writes and how he plays with stuff like this all the time, and instead replace the explanation that actually explains everything, including the very confusion that's the subject of conversation, with "yeah but he was a guy in real life so there!". It isn't even comparable.
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To ignore this very, very clear device is to ignore what's actually happening in Japan, ignore the way ZUN always writes and how he plays with stuff like this all the time, and instead replace the explanation that actually explains everything, including the very confusion that's the subject of conversation, with "yeah but he was a guy in real life so there!". It isn't even comparable.
Those are all just assumptions, hardly a clear undeniable evidence. Saying things like "but you know how ZUN always writes" is not going to mean much here. I will say it again, it's a plausible theory, but still only a theory. You have nothing at all to confirm your point or deny mine and your comparisons to unbelieving flat-earthers amuse me. What if the history of Miko's past was also forgotten in Gensokyo and now, witout any records of her past life, everyone readily accepts that the girl with headphones has always been a girl? And what if ZUN is keeping this little fact to himself just to make the fans speculate. I mean you know the way ZUN always writes and how he plays with stuff like this all the time
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Word of God in her profile calls her a girl, even in her past. That's about as solid as it gets. Anything else is wild speculation without basis.
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What bugs me about this whole thing is that you insist on saying that both "theories" have the same weight, when they simply don't.
Saying that Miko was once a male requires you to explain a ton of things: why does her profile always refers to her as female if she was once a he, why it doesn't mention the gender change, why nowhere in canon it's mentioned that she changed genders, why doesn't anyone else comments on it, why would she even change sex in the first place, etc etc etc.
On the other hand, Miko having always be female brings no issues at all; the discrepancy between how she's perceived in the outside world and who she really is is already explained by the fact that she became a mythological figure, which, as Drake said, ended up eclipsing her true history.
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I think there's also a weird false equivalence going on between the Miko-as-male "theory" and canonical evidence. They just don't have the same level of credibility.
What I like about the Q&A thread is they deal with questions often not immediately answerable in the official material. So people take different approaches to arriving at an answer, which I think often leads to this thread's characteristic of going into fan theories. That's a desirable result for coming up with fan theories, but then we're moving away from trying to arrive at as close to a canonical answer as we can, and towards other possible answers; i.e., fan theory. I think there's an important distinction there, between the two, not least of all in terms of levels of credibility. It's good to have in mind that the various and sundry possible answers we can come up with aren't exactly on a level playing field.
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Those are all just assumptions, hardly a clear undeniable evidence. Saying things like "but you know how ZUN always writes" is not going to mean much here. I will say it again, it's a plausible theory, but still only a theory. You have nothing at all to confirm your point or deny mine and your comparisons to unbelieving flat-earthers amuse me. What if the history of Miko's past was also forgotten in Gensokyo and now, witout any records of her past life, everyone readily accepts that the girl with headphones has always been a girl? And what if ZUN is keeping this little fact to himself just to make the fans speculate.
They really aren't assumptions. I'm guessing you're either not aware what I mean by "how ZUN always writes", or you're not aware of what's basically ZUN's whole setup of Gensokyo and the Touhou universe, and general aversion to not outright explaining literally everything to the audience. You're trying to compare "what-if"s you make up out of nowhere with what is very, very clearly the reason and motivation for its inclusion at all; the comparison to a flat earth is completely apt. You couldn't possibly even get closer to saying that Shotoku was "really" a woman besides doing something incredibly dumb like having Sanae go OH WELL I GUESS MY HISTORY BOOKS WERE WRONG AFTER ALL HA HA HA. Even for ZUN, what he gives us is almost as explicit as you can get. Why and how ZUN writes the things he does often explains a great deal more than the very actions of the characters (which are very very often deliberately shrouded), so I'm really confused what you could possibly mean by having "sufficient" evidence.
"What if the history of Miko's past was also forgotten in Gensokyo" isn't even a coherent reply. That isn't how Gensokyo works both in history and in how its residents are characterized. It's just throwing out nonsense pretending as if it holds as an objection. When you start saying things like "no matter what canon fact you point at", you have completely destroyed your own argument, since not only is there canon fact to support it, but its support goes beyond what's mentioned in canon.
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Oh, looks like we hit 1000 posts. Hold on to your seats while a new thread is made, please!