Author Topic: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?  (Read 152000 times)

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2013, 03:45:29 AM »
Never discount the AI's ability to derp.  It can trap itself even against Chiyuri or Kana.

Additionally, every round is winnable by simply surviving long enough.  Yumemi has a timer in the first round; it's simply longer.  That is: this isn't like PoFV, where first-round Eiki will never kill herself.

By suiciding, you've lost an opportunity to win and you've removed an opportunity for the AI to lose.  Just be a badass and go balls out from the start.
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2013, 10:38:24 AM »
Thanks for the assistance with Hourai Doll, guys, I captured it on my first attempt after reading the advice :3
Now, I have another spell I need help with.
I used to be able to consistently capture Possessed by Phoenix, but now I can't seem to get the method for the second wave totally perfect, and I keep dying to it.
Can anyone give me some specifics, YouTube isn't really helping :/
(Also Nue's Green UFO spell, is it really as horrific as it seems, or am I missing something here?)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 12:47:08 PM by LeviLamprey »
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2013, 11:28:51 AM »
Does anyone have any advice regarding PoDD Reimu? She keeps killing me way more than the other bosses do. Like half the time even on stage 1. Normally I can survive decently well until stage 4 or so.

If anyone feels like watching my current best attempt (stage 7) and telling me any ways I could improve, that would be appreciated too.

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2013, 01:06:11 PM »
(Also Nue's Green UFO spell, is it really as horrific as it seems, or am I missing something here?)
Always stay around where the lasers don't bulge out (it's the same height every time) when the UFOs are shooting them and dodge the bullets mainly horizontally. When the lasers disappear, follow Nue (you'll want to stay under her for most of the card to kill it quickly). You don't even need to follow the UFOs around (although it could certainly help with a stronger shottype) because even with all of them intact, you have a fair amount of room to dodge the green shards. Don't be afraid of moving vertically if you must, even with the lasers around you.
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Oh

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2013, 04:20:09 PM »
I used to be able to consistently capture Possessed by Phoenix, but now I can't seem to get the method for the second wave totally perfect, and I keep dying to it.
Start at bottom. Tap up to the beat of the music~
Don't tap too fast though.

Zil

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2013, 01:23:32 AM »
Does anyone have any advice regarding PoDD Reimu? She keeps killing me way more than the other bosses do. Like half the time even on stage 1. Normally I can survive decently well until stage 4 or so.

If anyone feels like watching my current best attempt (stage 7) and telling me any ways I could improve, that would be appreciated too.
I'll comment on the run first, and then talk about Reimu in particular. (And remember, these are just my own opinions on everything. I don't want it to seem like my word is law just because I've played PoDD a lot.)

Anyway, I think you spend too much time in the middle of the screen, and too far from the bottom as well. You should generally move in a sort of U shape, and there are a number of reasons for that. First, it makes it easier to misdirect the bullets. In this game, you almost always want to go completely around things. Dodging through them is a last resort, even if it's just a few bullets. Second, being at the bottom of the screen in general is advantageous. Not only does it give you more time to react to the bullets, but it makes it easier to kill things quickly. When shooting the enemies, you usually want to rush right at them, to kind of "artificially" increase your rate of fire. You of course need room to do that, so if you're already midway up the screen, you aren't going to be able to advance any further. All of these is even more important to worry about when you're using someone slow like Reimu. If you're in a bad position when a wall of bullets comes at you, you just aren't fast enough to get out of the way. (So, for example, just in the first stage against Kana, you seemed to keep returning to the center of the screen. It would be better to fall back to the bottom.)

Another thing, probably more important than what I was just saying, is that you don't seem to be using your level 4 charge to repel boss attacks. Instead you try to just kill them with charge attacks. That can be a good idea in some situations. If you're playing as Mima, for example, your charge attack is so powerful, and your own boss attack so dangerous, that you may very well just want to kill the bosses rather than reverse them. That's not the case with Reimu though. Her charge attack is awful, she's not fast enough to rush in and shotgun with it, and her boss attack is actually very safe. She not only shoots yin-yang orbs (the bane of the AI), but only one of her four attacks can be reflected, and she moves while shooting it. So really, you should always counter the enemy's boss attacks with your own whenever you have enough energy to afford it. It's one of the few that's actually more likely to help than hurt you.

And a couple more specific things:
- If you're going to be hit within the first few seconds of a match, you may as well just take the hit instead of bombing, like what happened in the first round against Reimu. Getting hit that early would only take half of a heart, or maybe a full heart, but neither of those are a big deal. The most damage you can possibly take from a single hit, no matter how late in the match, is three hearts, so if you're only missing one heart, it'll still take at least three more hits to kill you. So basically, getting hit very early is kind of like not getting hit at all.
- Try to learn Kotohime's boss attacks. Most importantly, if the bombs orbiting around her stop spinning, you know she's going to use her aimed attack, so you should try to misdirect it. (Like at 6:40, for example. You probably should have guided that into the lower right corner.)
- I think Mima's spell attacks are easier to dodge directly underneath them, rather than the opposite corner.

Now... how to deal with Reimu. She can really be a nightmare, yes. First you should know that her spell attack is a combination of static and aimed bullets, so staying still while it's fired makes it much easier. I think dodging it in the corner is ideal as it reduces the likelihood that a yin-yang orb will fall on you and also gives you the opportunity to rush up through the waves, rather than waiting for them at the bottom. (Doing that in the middle of the screen is more dangerous.) Also keep using charge attacks while you're in it, to protect yourself from fireballs. Maybe I'm beating a dead horse by saying that over and over again, but it's important.

About her boss attack, it has four patterns it can use. For the one with reflectable bullets, I generally just run to the corner and dodge it from there. The way she drops down makes it hard to stay right under her. (Though I think you can dodge it with small left-right movements in that case, kind of like that one thing Chiyuri uses.) For the attack that shoots the big yin-yang orbs, I usually try not to be directly under her. And remember that the corners are usually the safest places from the orbs since they can only get so close to the wall. The other two attacks are seemingly similar to each other but work differently. Both are completely static, though she keeps moving while she fires them. (However, since the bosses always start in the same spot and move the same way, the attacks will always be the same if it's the first thing she does, so that's something you want to be especially familiar with.) One of them shoots some three-way shots to the sides, which you can basically ignore, then shoots two waves of of five bullets each. The center bullet of each is aimed straight down, with others at fixed distances apart from it, so you can view the two waves as making some wide "lanes" angled whichever way she was moving when she fired them. The other pattern shoots some denser waves to the sides, then two walls straight down, then some more walls to the sides again. For this one, you'll probably want to macro dodge the walls, so learn the distances and time between them. If it's the first pattern she uses after appearing, there's a fairly easy way through it that places you right back under her. Almost like what you did at 9:45, but then just slip through to the right and you have a clear path to the boss.

That, and any general thing I mentioned earlier should still apply. She's probably one of the most dangerous characters in the game. If she decides to just throw everything at you at once then there's not much you can do. Her spell/EX attacks are completely overwhelming when stacked on top of other things. On the other hand, her boss attacks are very memorizable and she can be dealt with pretty easily when there aren't any other distractions.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2013, 03:24:35 AM »
Start at bottom. Tap up to the beat of the music~
Don't tap too fast though.
Or you can circle around the familiars, I find it a lot more consistent than precise rhythmic micro-tapping.

ciddypoo

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2013, 06:07:02 AM »
Or you can circle around the familiars, I find it a lot more consistent than precise rhythmic micro-tapping.
Second this. If you circle around (or even moving in a loose square), you can avoid getting hit as long as you keep a steady tapping rhythm. At least doing it this way you won't feel any 'pressure' regarding running out of space to stream.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2013, 09:04:03 PM »
Or you can circle around the familiars, I find it a lot more consistent than precise rhythmic micro-tapping.

Can you please post a replay with this trick? I tried to do a circle but the familiars pwned me :V
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2013, 10:10:41 PM »
Can you please post a replay with this trick? I tried to do a circle but the familiars pwned me :V

Like this. If you're going to circle with a focused slow character, the circle is more like a diamond/hexagon, because you should be streaming using diagonals in order to make it safer.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2013, 11:34:24 PM »
Like this. If you're going to circle with a focused slow character, the circle is more like a diamond/hexagon, because you should be streaming using diagonals in order to make it safer.

Yaaayyy I captured for the first time this spellcard, thank you

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2013, 11:12:32 PM »
Some help with Ichirin's opener (boss fight) please ?
I can only read the lasers when at the bottom of the screen, and those green bullet walls prevent me from staying there. I've tried to dodge the walls by going up, but the timing seems wrong...

While we're at it, is there any way not to mark Kogasa's second spellcard (the one with blue bullets flying everywhere and popping right on you) as an autobomb ? Normal mode version was quite straightforward, but this one isn't.

(playing in Hard mode, btw)

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2013, 06:24:25 PM »
Some help with Ichirin's opener (boss fight) please ?
I can only read the lasers when at the bottom of the screen, and those green bullet walls prevent me from staying there. I've tried to dodge the walls by going up, but the timing seems wrong...

While we're at it, is there any way not to mark Kogasa's second spellcard (the one with blue bullets flying everywhere and popping right on you) as an autobomb ? Normal mode version was quite straightforward, but this one isn't.

(playing in Hard mode, btw)
For Ichirin's opener, you want to stay at the bottom, dodge up and over the green walls, move back down to the bottom in a gap that they create, and finally follow their movements as you dodge the lasers at the bottom (or near the bottom). I just tried it and the method does work in Hard mode. It does take a bit of practice to get used to though if you've been doing it differently for Normal.

I think Kogasa's second spell card is pretty much an auto-bomb on actual 1cc runs unless you get to it with no bombs (which I actually try to do on 1cc runs). It has a way of blindsiding you and clipping you, and I find that risk is far too high to actually attempt to capture it during real runs.

RNG

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2013, 09:21:11 PM »
The Kogasa safespot positioning is actually pretty easy to learn - as any type but SanaeB and possibly ReimuB it's easier than the "normal" method. Just get your hitbox below the seam of Kogasa's skirt at the start of the fight, move down after she fires a wave, then get back to the safespot. When she activates the spellcard, move down after every wave so she doesn't run into you. Now that we have the boss rush patch it's really easy to learn the positioning just by trial and error.

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2013, 11:06:49 PM »
For Ichirin's opener, you want to stay at the bottom, dodge up and over the green walls, move back down to the bottom in a gap that they create, and finally follow their movements as you dodge the lasers at the bottom (or near the bottom). I just tried it and the method does work in Hard mode. It does take a bit of practice to get used to though if you've been doing it differently for Normal.
I just tried, and it seems to work. Thanks !
Just needed to read the lasers a bit more quickly.

@RNG : Yeah, SanaeB makes the first spell so easy, there's no point in safespotting it.
I think I'll continue bombing the second one then, it doesn't really matter.

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2013, 06:43:52 PM »
Rin's Zombie Fairies and Rekindling of Dead Ashes make me want to cry.  :ohdear: I know when you kill the fairies they come back, but if you just ignore the fairies they fill the screen up with their nonsense and it's  just... And considering bombs arn't that good in SA I can't just bomb through it. More to the point I'd rather do this stuff without using a bomb if I have to.

*sigh*

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2013, 08:29:39 PM »
Rin's Zombie Fairies and Rekindling of Dead Ashes make me want to cry.  :ohdear: I know when you kill the fairies they come back, but if you just ignore the fairies they fill the screen up with their nonsense and it's  just... And considering bombs arn't that good in SA I can't just bomb through it. More to the point I'd rather do this stuff without using a bomb if I have to.

*sigh*

The first one is quite easy, given you have enough power : begin above Orin, lure the fairies up there, circle clockwise and shoot from the bottom.
The second one is more tricky, I'd bomb it in a 1cc attempt. The only "strategy" I have is : run in circles to avoid the bullets, shoot Orin when you can.
I gave it a try and captured both, just to illustrate : replay here
Ignore the stupid deaths at the other spells, I haven't played SA in a while...

Alternatively, play ReimuC and bomb everything  :derp:

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2013, 12:19:45 PM »
Anyone know how to consistently do the last stage pattern in Marine Benefit stage 5, with the "ring" of fairies moving toward the center?

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2013, 05:26:46 PM »
If you're using SanaeA you can probably just stay unfocused in to get rid of a lot of the fairies and just slowly stream to the side (preferably from left to right) while watching out for any horizontal bullets, since the red stuff is aimed at you. I find this section to be a lot easier than the green luckshit section honestly.

Maybe my perfect of it can help. Link currently dead because I remade my youtube account. Wait a bit while I reupload it. Link fixed.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 12:58:57 AM by PMW »

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2013, 01:36:06 AM »
The first one is quite easy, given you have enough power : begin above Orin, lure the fairies up there, circle clockwise and shoot from the bottom.
The second one is more tricky, I'd bomb it in a 1cc attempt. The only "strategy" I have is : run in circles to avoid the bullets, shoot Orin when you can.
I gave it a try and captured both, just to illustrate : replay here
Ignore the stupid deaths at the other spells, I haven't played SA in a while...

Alternatively, play ReimuC and bomb everything  :derp:

Thank you <3
I think I got it now... I think. I can do zombie fairies now, rekindling of dead ashes may take a bit of work but eh.


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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2013, 09:33:08 PM »
okay I guess now it's my turn :V what the fuck do I do against kotohime?

I had a really decent run just now in PoDD lunatic, managed to hit stage 7 only to get completely destroyed by kotohime. I have heard things about her before, so I knew I'd probably game over (also had a few match mode matches against her, but eh), but that was outside of my expectations. I can't seem to dodge anything that isn't her ex-attack. her spell lvl 2 and 3 attacks are really fucking dense and hit me easily 80% of the time. I know you can redirect her one boss attack (the one where the orb-things stop spinning), so I suppose I just have to get the timing down when exactly she stops looking for an aim and I can move out of the way. or something. the other boss attacks are just completely beyond me. the whole match was just a pingpong match with one level 4 spell being casted after another. I lost the exchange every time, so yeah, general advice would be very much appreciated.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2013, 11:48:16 PM »
Why are you playing Chiyuri O_O

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2013, 12:07:02 AM »
why are you not playing chiyuri?

I am not a person who plays with a lot of different character so in games where I have a lot of choices, I always try everyone and decide on the character who seemingly works best for me. so for the better or worse, I am playing chiyuri. her charge attack is very straightforward and seemed easy to use. this is also the reason why I am playing komachi in PoFV. so I dunno. I seem to have a hidden tendency to choose characters the game's hard to clear with on the phantasmagoria games. it doesn't particularly bother me, though. kind of just makes it all the more satisfying.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2013, 03:20:08 AM »
Thank you <3
I think I got it now... I think. I can do zombie fairies now, rekindling of dead ashes may take a bit of work but eh.

Ah yeah, Rekindling of dead ashes is probably one of the cooler and stranger spells in SA.   :3

Some tips which may or may not help; Fairies follow you in bursts, before stopping and shooting some bubbles, if you can learn the timing for when they decide to move+stop you can generally control things better in that spell. 
Also, Orin doesn't have a hitbox during that spell and stops shooting small blue things if you sit on her, so take advantage of that at the start of the spell if you can!  (it'll be hard to do so once things start going as the screen becomes too full of stuff!  :V)
Lure the fairies to the top left of the screen after they make their first move is what I generally do, after which you want to make large clockwise circles around the screen, mainly traveling from corner to corner (whilst briefly trying to deal damage to Orin as you pass by underneath her).  This will ensure that you are always at least a screen width away from the fairies when they start shooting bubbles and (if you keep moving from corner to corner) should give you enough time and room to read and dodge them.

If you're ReimuC, MarisaA or MarisaB, one bomb pointblank should do the trick.  Just sit on the bottom of the screen, then when the fairies start moving, run onto Orin's sprite and press the bomb button at the very last second before the fairies move to and reach you (bear in mind that MarisaA's bomb immunity is quite short!  Jump away quickly once Orin explodes to avoid a stray fairy colliding with you!).

If you're ReimuA, you may need an extra bomb, do remember that fairies can still get in the way of your shot whilst you're in bomb mode, and since your shot is a big chunk of your damage, trying to avoid fairies soaking up your shot (wriggle around them when you're in bomb mode to keep your shots on Orin!  It's not much more damage, but every little helps~).

ReimuB's bombs are poop for this spell, there just aren't too many bullets unless you position it very nicely to take in Orin's popcorn, the glowy bullets and bubbles.  Prepare to use a lot of bombs if you plan to bomb your way through it with her.

MarisaC has the worst time autobombing through this spell cause... yeah her bomb does a feather worth of damage, haha  :derp:
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2013, 04:14:28 AM »
okay I guess now it's my turn :V what the fuck do I do against kotohime?
You must be tranquil as a forest, but on fire within!

Also, you know how to recognize the aimed attack, which is good. You can also predict the other two, based on how far the spinning bombs are from her. If they're far away, she does the fast (static) attack. If they're close to her, she does the slower one. I don't think that one's static though. Also remember that those bombs orbiting around her don't hurt you, so you can still shotgun her while they're there.

That's all I got. :p (Though any of the generic things I said before should still apply, of course.) It's basically random crap everywhere. Just gotta dodge it.

Karisa

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2013, 06:34:08 AM »
I find that the bullets in Kotohime's level 2/3 attacks tend to line up in a way that's not hard to dodge through, unless in combination with something else. Not that I've ever played against stage 7 Kotohime. Right now I just hope to luck out and get both Reimu and Kotohime before stage 5-6.

Is there normally a major difficulty jump in how long the boss lasts on stage 7, by the way? I've reached stage 7 over 10 times now, and in at least 6 of those all 5 of my deaths were there (there was one that somehow defeated Mima on the first try then died 5 times to Chiyuri), even though Mima's attacks seem easier to dodge than Reimu's and Kotohime's are.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 06:39:06 AM by Karisa »

Zil

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2013, 07:33:53 AM »
Yeah, I'm pretty sure stage 7 lasts much longer than stage 6. Not that I've ever timed it or anything, but it feels that way. That's assuming you don't kill her prematurely with a yin-yang orb or something. And then it can kind of get harder after you die since spell levels don't reset.

And Kotohime in stage 7 is a big part of what makes Chiyuri so hard to clear with. She's literally the worst character you could possibly get.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2013, 07:10:23 PM »
Did somebody say "time"?  :V

Well, I honestly don't have a whole lot of times for 03, and nothing above Normal difficulty. But on Normal, the times do indeed jump up from ~93 seconds on stage 6 to ~135 seconds for the first life on stage 7. Drops to ~103 on life 2 and ~95 on life 3. On easy, stage 6 is ~67 seconds, while 7 is ~88/~83/~69

Zil

Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2013, 07:49:27 PM »
I went and checked some of my videos with weaker characters, and it seems stage 6 is usually 2:30, stage 7 is 3:00, and stage 8 is 4:00. And from some stuff I did earlier I'm pretty sure stage 1 is 1:40, so I'll go ahead and make a guess for the rest of them:

S1 = 1:40
S2 = 1:50
S3 = 2:00
S4 = 2:10
S5 = 2:20
S6 = 2:30
S7 = 3:00
S8 = 4:00

I know I've seen Yumemi last longer than 5 minutes. She takes forever even on Easy, so I don't what to say for her. I've never no-missed Lunatic as a character without broken EX attacks. (And then there's crap like this so I don't know what to think.)

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2013, 01:58:05 AM »
Doesn't PoFV Eiki never take any planned hits in the first round? It could be the same with Yumemi.

Or, if you've figured out a set amount of time for Yumemi on Easy, you could calculate the timing for the earlier stages on each difficulty, and try to extrapolate from there.