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14th Annual Touhou Project Popularity Contest
(https://i.imgur.com/qS1B0oM.png) (http://toho-vote.info/)
(おいもと (http://oimoto.mimoza.jp/))
http://toho-vote.info/
The Touhou Project Popularity Contest, held by the Japanese Touhou Wiki (http://thwiki.info) for over a decade, is a poll open to fans around the globe to vote on their favorite characters and music throughout the Touhou series. Voting is open!
Voting
Voting Period: Sunday, January 14th 00:00 JST ~ Saturday, January 20th 23:59 JST
Voting is done similarly to the previous years. You will need to obtain a voting ID by submitting your email address to the site; you will receive an email with your voting ID included, and when completing any poll you will need to enter this voting ID. There is only one voting ID allowed per person.
Voting ID requests can be made half a day in advance of the polls opening. As such, they are already available as of this thread posting.
Please request your ID before the poll starts if possible, to help take some load off of the server during the voting period. Additionally, as you can vote anytime during the voting period, perhaps take care to save your votes until later during the week.
Please refer to this site for the clock / time by which the contest is operating. (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/asia/japan/time/)
Four categories are available for voting :
In the same order as on the site :
Character Poll - Vote for your (maximum of) 7 favourite characters. Your top vote will receive 2 points as opposed to 1.
Music Poll - Vote for your (maximum of) 10 favourite songs. Your top vote will receive 2 points as opposed to 1.
Works Poll - Vote for your (maximum of) 5 favourite works. Your top vote will receive 2 points as opposed to 1.
Voter Questionnaire - A questionnaire collecting voter data on demographics, game clear rates, game and manga ownership, etc.
Here (http://toho-vote.info/List.php) is a list of the candidates that you can vote for in each poll. The top four links send respectively to the list of characters, the list of songs, the list of works, and a list of arranges that will count as the same at their original.
With your votes, you can submit comments about your vote. These will be published on the website once the poll is over. Both your vote and comments can be edited until voting closes.
Translation
http://drakeirving.github.io/touhoudict (http://drakeirving.github.io/touhoudict)
Touhoudict is a tool that automatically translates names (currently the characters and works) directly on the voting and results pages. Please try it out!
Here is a translation of the questionnaire. (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21238.msg1378675.html#msg1378675)
FAQ
General
Q. Can I vote from my cell phone?
A. You can vote, but support for phones is not guaranteed. If errors occur such that you cannot vote, please vote from a different location, such as a net cafe or a friend's PC, instead.
Q. Do I need to fill out the comment field?
A. Filling out the comment field isn't necessary.
Q. I don't want to fill out all the spots for votes.
A. Vote for as many as you would like, then leave the others unselected.
Q. Can people outside Japan vote?
A. Yes.
Q. Will it be okay if I vote from the same computer as my siblings, etc.?
A. While it's impossible to say with 100% certainty that your votes won't be mistakenly judged to be duplicate votes, if you include the voting reason in the comment, it should be fine.
Q. I have no choice but to vote using a free e-mail address; will it be all right if I fill out the comment field properly?
A. As long as it's not a duplicate vote, there won't be any problem.
Note: Recently there has been a surge in votes from one-time-use emails. In case using one is unavoidable they will not be prohibited, but please be aware that there is a higher likelihood that these may be marked as duplicates or invalid votes.
Q. What is the maximum number of characters allowed for comments at voting time?
A. 200 full-width characters. [or 400 ASCII characters.]
Q. My Voter ID email never arrived.
A. It can sometimes take time for the ID to reach the listed email. Also, if you do any mail filtering (even if done automatically through your email service), it may fail to arrive. Please whitelist the domains "@thwiki.info" (for ID requests) and "gmail.com" (for inquiries) so all such emails can go through (if gmail is not whitelisted, even if you make an inquiry, replies may not arrive).
If more than a day has passed, you can resubmit the Voter ID Form using the same email. If you've done all these steps and still don't receive the email, please contact us using the Contact Form (http://toho-vote.info/contact.php) or through Twitter (https://twitter.com/toho_wiki).
Character
Q. Can I vote for Lily Black?
A. She is included in the "Lily White" option. (Note: In the "Kare Radio" broadcast on Aug 21, 2010, ZUN commented that Lily White and Lily Black are the same character.)
Q. Can I vote for Rin Satsuki?
A. As a character which does not officially exist, she will not be included.
Q. There's no option for the character I want to vote for...
A. As Seihou/Uwabami Breakers characters/ZUN are not characters that have appeared in the Touhou series, they will not be included.
In addition, inanimate objects (Yin-Yang orbs, gameplay items, etc) except for the Shanghai Doll and UFOs will not be included.
Q. Story of Eastern Wonderland's Stage 1 midboss and Stage 3 boss are inanimate objects, so I can understand why they're not included, but can't I vote for other PC-98 midbosses?
A. As of the 14th contest they can be voted for.
Q. Regarding the fairy mooks, will there be separate options for fairy maids, etc?
A. Characters without proper names will be included in the options named after their race.
Q. Can I vote for the girl on the Dolls in Pseudo Paradise cover/label?
A. As of the 13th contest they can be voted for, as "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise CD Jacket Girl" and "Dolls in Pseudo Paradise CD Label Girl".
Music
Q. How will votes for arrangements of original songs appearing on the music CDs be handled?
A. Arrangements will be displayed as separate items on the voting screen, but votes for the arrangements and their original songs will be counted together during vote totaling. Please vote for the arrangement you like the most. You cannot vote for both the original song and the arrangement, but the counts of which songs were voted for will be included in the results.
Q. How will "Love-Colored Magic" and "Love-Colored Master Spark" be handled?
A. Please refer to the table of arrangements with different names which will be counted together with their original songs (http://toho-vote.info/List.php#COMMENT).
Q. Aren't "Bloom Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms ~ Border of Life" and "Border of Life" different arrangements of the same song?
A. In this poll, they are treated as different songs.
Questionnaire
Q. Regarding the voter survey questions on game clear status, aren't frame drop rates going to be included?
A. We're not being that hardcore in having such strict policies on counting clears.
Other
Q. Are there any plans to include the spell card poll?
A. It will not be implemented this time.
Q. Can I use pictures I've drawn on Pixiv, etc. as publicity images?
A. Publicity is welcome. In addition, including the hashtag "#toho_vote14" and "第14回東方Project人気投票" is recommended. Registered participants can put links to these works here (http://toho-vote.info/Shien.php).
Previous Threads
7th Contest - Voting (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4966.0.html) - Results (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5052.0.html)
8th Contest - Voting & Results (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8445.0.html)
9th Contest - Voting & Results (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12072.0.html)
10th Contest - Voting & Results (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16317.0.html)
11th Contest - Voting & Results (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,18477.0.html)
12th Contest - Voting & Results (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,19185.0.html)
13th Contest - Voting & Results (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,20546.0.html)
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Oh boy, can't wait to be disappointed by the fan bases tastes again.
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Oh boy, can't wait to laugh at entitled fools giving the whole fandom shit for having diverse tastes.
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Oh boy, can't wait to see if Kisume beats out the Tsukumo sisters.
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Oh boy, can't wait to see what heights the meme teller is gonna reach this time.
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Nvm.
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I am running a campaign to have people spare a vote for Shizuha, in order to break the Aki Sandwich. This is mostly a test of the influence of non-Japanese voters on the results. For example, we'd be able to measure how influential we are by seeing how many places we can boost Shizuha above Minoriko. Feel free to participate if that interests you. Or, you know, vote for Shizuha because she's cool.
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Although I put it in the OP, I'm going to continue to push the touhoudict tool for translating the voting options on the page:
https://drakeirving.github.io/touhoudict
pls feedback
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The email can possibly get triggered by spam filters. If you don't get the voter ID within like a couple minutes something probably happened to it or you put in the wrong address, because it should basically just automatically email you. Just try again or use a different address.
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Oh hey I can participate in this and vote for insignificant characters that happen to be my favourites even though I know they will get incredibly low scores in the poll lol.
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>Diverse tastes
>Reimu has only ever been anything other than #1 two times over 14 years
>EOSD was voted as the most popular touhou game twice in a row
>literally the only characters who were from games/media after MOF and in the top 10 the last few years were the Satoris, but literally almost all of top 15 have been mostly early windows.
>that greater fairy who literally has never spoken ever, yet is more popular than Mamizou, Yuugi, Tewi, Kanako and probably some other characters who actually have fucking personality.
>kek
Diverse tastes my ass. It's been largely the same early windows (Before MOF) bias it's always been since it started. Sometimes we'll get someone like Sagume or Sejia who'll be forgotten in a few years. The only exceptions so far are the Komeijis, that's it. Everyone else gets safted by the dumb green haired fairy.
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I am running a campaign to have people spare a vote for Shizuha, in order to break the Aki Sandwich. This is mostly a test of the influence of non-Japanese voters on the results. For example, we'd be able to measure how influential we are by seeing how many places we can boost Shizuha above Minoriko. Feel free to participate if that interests you. Or, you know, vote for Shizuha because she's cool.
Sorry clarste, i had to use my last vote on Aunn. She forced my hand. There was nothing I can do since she's been watching me, all this time.
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I am running a campaign to have people spare a vote for Shizuha, in order to break the Aki Sandwich. This is mostly a test of the influence of non-Japanese voters on the results. For example, we'd be able to measure how influential we are by seeing how many places we can boost Shizuha above Minoriko. Feel free to participate if that interests you. Or, you know, vote for Shizuha because she's cool.
Please avoid hijacking characters votes for random reasons.
Personally, Aki sisters are really nice characters and it would be sad for me knowing they got a distorted score because someone said "we'd be able to measure how influential we are",
even if their mean score is pretty low; obviously, this can be said for any other major or minor character of the series.
The vote's meaning is to probe people's preferences, introducing external factors on the score just makes it devoid of reasons to exist.
If you are willing to see how many non-Japanese people are voting you can:
- make a post here and ask people to write down if they voted on this contest.
- do it for other communities;
or
- make a poll using external services and invite the most people possible to vote.
Just vote responsibly and have fun.
Or, you know, vote for Shizuha because she's cool.
Despite everything said she will be voted for this reason.
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Diverse tastes my ass. It's been largely the same early windows (Before MOF) bias it's always been since it started. Sometimes we'll get someone like Sagume or Sejia who'll be forgotten in a few years. The only exceptions so far are the Komeijis, that's it. Everyone else gets safted by the dumb green haired fairy.
Man, how dare people like popular things. Especially when they don't affect your own tastes, what senseless monsters.
Already voted, my top 7 didn't change since last year, with Yuuka still on top.
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The email can possibly get triggered by spam filters. If you don't get the voter ID within like a couple minutes something probably happened to it or you put in the wrong address, because it should basically just automatically email you. Just try again or use a different address.
Did you try with an hotmail address? Neither the spam folder or the main folder got it.
I'll retry though...
EDIT
I did enter my email correctly. So... it might just be that sending ID email to Hotmail addresses just send an email to the void.
I'll try a totally different hotmail address then, if nothing, I'll try my gmail.
EDIT 2
Yup, received it instantly on a GMail address. Hotmail just means emails in the void. Somebody fluent in Japanese might just want to contact the webmaster about it (admin＠thwiki.info). I would but my Japanese is non-existent.
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Diverse tastes my ass. It's been largely the same early windows (Before MOF) bias it's always been since it started. Sometimes we'll get someone like Sagume or Sejia who'll be forgotten in a few years. The only exceptions so far are the Komeijis, that's it. Everyone else gets safted by the dumb green haired fairy.
As disappointed as I am too by the transient popularity (or the lack thereof) the more recent releases receive, I'd not go as far as to criticize people for liking the things they like, even more so if it's all pretty much just fantasy and hardly affects real life.
Anyways:
(anything besides the #1 choice is in no particular order)
Top 7 Characters
- Okina Matara
- Jo'on Yorigami
- Junko
- Shinmyoumaru Sukuna
- Satori Komeiji
- Aya Shameimaru
- Aunn Komano
Top 10 Themes
- Pure Furies ~ Whereabouts of the Heart
- Tonight Stars an Easygoing Egoist (Live ver) ~ Egoistic Flowers
- The Concealed Four Seasons
- The Yorimashi Sits Between Dream and Reality ~ Necro-Fantasia
- The Sea Where One's Home Planet Reflects
- Kobito of the Shining Needle ~ Little Princess (DDC ver)
- Illusionary White Traveler
- Satori Maiden ~ 3rd eye
- Gensokyo Millenium ~ History of the Moon
- Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind (UFO ver)
Top 5 Works
- Hidden Star in Four Seasons
- Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom
- Double Dealing Character
- Subterranean Animism
- Mountain of Faith
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EDIT 2
Yup, received it instantly on a GMail address. Hotmail just means emails in the void. Somebody fluent in Japanese might just want to contact the webmaster about it (admin＠thwiki.info). I would but my Japanese is non-existent.
I've had this problem too and I'm trying to write an email. Unfortunately all of my usual contacts who know Japanese are offline. Minus PMing Clarste (who I don't really want to bother as I assume they're a busy person) there aren't much people I know anymore who are fluent in Japanese. All I've done is preface the the email with "I don't understand Japanese but I understand English." That's about all the Japanese I know and I'm not entirely sure I've got it grammatically correct.
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I don't know how predictive this is, but apparently the exit polls (ie: twitter posts) are showing the final boss of AoCF (Blue) breaking into the top 10. Also Koishi is #1 again. The second highest newcomer is Aunn at 34. Doremy jumped from #70 to top 20.
https://twitter.com/ShioSyakeYakiNi/status/952349906622021633
Edit: Yukari and Tenshi have also been boosted into the top 10, ejecting Alice, Remilia, and Aya.
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I think it's still pretty early to have exit polls, and I'm pretty sure they weren't very accurate last time because the posts don't include first place and one to three names at best.
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Yeah, I didn't think it would be especially accurate. It's fun though.
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Although I put it in the OP, I'm going to continue to push the touhoudict tool for translating the voting options on the page:
https://drakeirving.github.io/touhoudict
pls feedback
It works... on the intended pages. You know, you could totally just wrote a script (Tampermonkey, violentmonkey, etc) that could do that and for the entire site too. For exemple, When I chose my songs, I was on my own. Luckily, I always refer to the songs by their original names; so I knew where to go from there. But somebody else? Hmm, not sure. Also, I also completed the survey which you did not touch and had to rely on Google TL and the page Source Code to get to copy & paste into Google TL to get it done.
In other words, it works but far from convenient and also incomplete.
----------As for my voting...
Characters (in order of course)
1. Momiji
2. Aunn
3. Ran
4. Reimu
5. Sanae
6. Aya
Sincerely hope you're not surprised for the first choice. Originally, I voted for Aya in 3rd and Kyouko in 7th. However, I remembered I love Ran (I have a weakness for fox/cat ears girls) and to drop Aya from 3rd to 7th. Also considered Rin, Chen, Mamizou and Kagerou but I like them less. Reimu and Sanae are just where they need to be, imo.
Songs:
1. さくらさくら ～ Japanize Dream...
2. 廃獄ララバイ
3. 霊知の太陽信仰 ～ Nuclear Fusion
4. 永遠の巫女 (Original)
5. ネクロファンタジア
6. ラストリモート
7. 死体旅行 ～ Be Of Good Cheer!
8. 博麗 ～ Eastern Wind
9. Bad Apple!!
10. 夢幻遊戯 ～ Dream War
Shout-out to Subterranean Animism soundtrack and PC-98 chiptunes. If I could've voted for entire soundtracks, I would have voted for SA, Dim.Dream and Story Of Eastern Wonderland by a landslide lol.
Works:
I never played any of the games so, my choices were basically the mangas.
1. Forbidden Scrollery
2. Wild And Horned Hermit
3. Sangetsusei
4. Dateless Bar "Old Adam"
5. Dr. Latency's Freak Report
The CD choices are... just to fill the void. Bougetsushou is very "heh" and I haven't seen the physical magazines so I can't say I love them.
So, that's it.
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It works... on the intended pages. You know, you could totally just wrote a script (Tampermonkey, violentmonkey, etc) that could do that and for the entire site too. For exemple, When I chose my songs, I was on my own. Luckily, I always refer to the songs by their original names; so I knew where to go from there. But somebody else? Hmm, not sure. Also, I also completed the survey which you did not touch and had to rely on Google TL and the page Source Code to get to copy & paste into Google TL to get it done.
In other words, it works but far from convenient and also incomplete.
Of course I could. But asking people to go download something like tampermonkey and then install the script is going to be more cumbersome to the average user that has probably never even opened the browser console before; giving instructions to just copypaste code was the first solution and should be easy enough for anyone. After tweaking things around I just added the bookmarklet and finished this thread (from my phone) while already busy yesterday. If you really need a userscript despite being able to work the other options I can do that.
Also, have you considered the possibility that I know it's incomplete right now? :/ The main object literally has an empty `music` key. I've just not organized the data for music titles yet because it's a decent amount of work. If you want to do that yourself then go right ahead dude, it would be appreciated, but I might be able to do it tonight.
Second also, the survey is only posted at the time of the contest, not in advance, so there is no possible way I could have that ready, and going beyond term-term matching isn't what the tool is for. I've provided the questionnaire translations for the past two contests already and fully intend to do this one; if you didn't know that then ok, but it really feels like you're accusing me of just not putting in the effort or something which is frankly insulting and wrong. I care about the questionnaire results more than anything else.
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Edit: Yukari and Tenshi have also been boosted into the top 10, ejecting Alice, Remilia, and Aya.
For obvious reasons I can't just let this happen without doing somthing to fight it. I have sent an email with help from my Japanese teacher telling them that I didn't get an ID and that Hotmail may have been causing problems for us non-Japanese users.
That being said, I've gone and voted for Alice in order to at least try to maintain her position. She once got more first place votes than Reimu - even if I didn't love her it'd be a shame to let that only be a tale of long ago.
Characters:
1. Alice
2. Yukari
3. Nitori
4. Doremy Sweet
5. Yuuka Kazami
6. Mima
7. Shizuha Aki (Sorry Marisa and Aki sandwich but for the pride of the west I must)
The flip from valuing friendship more than respect has flipped again as the 3rd peak of my life is well and truly over. I prayed to Hina Kagiyama and I believe that she at least tried to answer that prayer as the result I asked for ended up being true. Not to mention this year we had the return of Yukari Yakumo (reminding me why I respect her) and more involvement from Doremy Sweet (Proving what I believed about her and only strengthening my faith in her). The biggest fall has been Mima. I still long for the days that we will see Mima again and I still have to hold myself back from fighting all who believe those days weren't canon but I do respect Doremy quite a bit and even the nostalgic fire in my heart can grow weary. I also replaced Marisa with Shizuha by Clarste's demand. I actually like the Aki sandwich but if it means I get to represent us then I must do what I can. Marisa wouldn't have come 8th either, She would have come 5th probably.
Titles:
1. Phantasmagoria of dim dream
2. Antimony of Common Flowers
3. Forbidden Scrollery
4. Symposium of post mysticism and perfect memento in strict sense
5. Imperishable night
Phantasmagoria of dim dream feels most like danmaku battles to me - having an overall feel that I just prefer over PoFV. I rarely give unfinished games any leeway whatsoever. I know that I have bias due to 2 characters I literally worship being in the game but on the games own merits it managed to recapture the mystery and adventure I haven't felt from a game in ages. The progression of the Main Menu theme really added to that feeling of uncovering more and unlocking my way through the game. Having some respect beaten into me by Shion was a really memorable experience too. I get a lot of "I know that feel" from Shion's fan art but in that speech she made, I felt a feel that months earlier made me want to kill myself. In fighting her and the great fight she put up I gained a lot of respect for the poverty god. I can only hope that my friends felt the same way when they fought me under similar circumstances. Forbidden Scrollery was a great story itself but also holds a special place in my heart as a few weeks before it was revealved, I had a dream that I saw Kosuzu in a storm and asked Aya to help her out of it. By this point, the even had already happened - it just hadn't been published yet. I still think that maybe I saw the vision that Reimu saw when she asked the spirits where Kosuzu was. I also like lore so SoPM and PMiSS were a given. IN is so far my favourite of the games in the main series that I've completed.
Not sure if I'll post the musics. I don't rank my music favourites. Do we have a touhousort for music?
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1) Aya Shameimaru
2) Reisen Udongein Inaba
3) Toyosatomimi no Miko
4) Iku Nagae
5) Eiki Shiki, San Andreas at Law
6) Kasen Ibaraki
7) Great Komachi Onozuka
1) Wind God Girl (BAiJR ver.)
2) Lunatic Eyes ~ Invisible Full Moon (IN ver.)
3) Doll Judgment ~ The Girl Who Played with People?s Shapes (PCB ver.)
4) The Capital City of Flowers in the Sky
5) Fires of Hokkai
6) Shoutoku Legend ~ True Administrator (TD ver.)
7) Eastern Judgement in the Sixtieth Year ~ Fate of Sixty Years
8) Cemetery of Onbashira ~ Grave of Being
9) Fall of Fall ~ Autumnal Waterfall
10) Heartfelt Fancy
1) StB
2) PoFV
3) IN
4) TD
5) WaHH
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Characters
Eirin Yagokoro
Komachi Onozuka
Reisen Udongein Inaba
Kasen Ibaraki
Yorihime no Watatsuki
Minamitsu Murasa
Nitori Kawashiro
The more flawed I realize Eirin is, the more I end up liking the character. She's also more fun and easy to write than I expected. Komachi is a cool gal and her short appearance in VFiS reminded me of a certain comic where she also takes Reimu to Higan but obviously for different reasons. Reisen is that character that I find very likeable even though she has her less pleasant moments but she often gets her comeuppance which I think is nice. Kasen is that character I really like but remain "cautious" about because WaHH is still not finished. I still maintain that Yorihime and her sister are misunderstood characters and after reading SSiB again a while ago, I found the writing and presentation did not help at all. Murasa is that weird character I somehow grew to like a lot because I feel there's some interesting elements about her because they could be interpreted in different ways and then there's that loveable jerkass Nitori. Kappa mechanics/inventor/etc.? Sold.
Music
Akutagawa Ryuunosuke's "Kappa" ~ Candid Friend (ULiL)
The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum (TD)
At the End of Spring (UFO)
The Gensokyo the Gods Loved (MoF)
Desire Drive (TD)
Gensokyo Millenium ~ History of the Moon (IN)
A Tiny, Tiny Clever Commander (UFO)
Illusionary White Traveler (HSiFS)
Secret God Matara ~ Hidden Star in All Seasons (HSiFS)
No More Going Through Doors (HSiFS)
I assume the poll site counts remixes/arranges as votes for the original version? I also was surprised by how much I liked the music in HSiFS. I can't help but feel the game has some of the best compositions in the series while finding some of the piano bits in it to be downright beautiful.
Works
Touhou 15.5: Antimony of Common Flowers
Touhou 10.5: Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
Bougetsushou (Primarily CiLR & IotM&IotE)
Wild & Horned Hermit
Touhou 15: Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom
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Before anyone else comments on the hotmail/live thing, they added a section for dropped emails in this year's FAQ that I missed because I made the thread from my phone. It's been added to the OP.
Q. My Voter ID email never arrived.
A. It can sometimes take time for the ID to reach the listed email. Also, if you do any mail filtering (even if done automatically through your email service), it may fail to arrive. Please whitelist the domains "@thwiki.info" (for ID requests) and "gmail.com" (for inquiries) so all such emails can go through (if gmail is not whitelisted, even if you make an inquiry, replies may not arrive).
If more than a day has passed, you can resubmit the Voter ID Form using the same email. If you've done all these steps and still don't receive the email, please contact us using the Contact Form (http://toho-vote.info/contact.php) or through Twitter (https://twitter.com/toho_wiki).
I've done a test run with a live.com address and resubmitted after adding thwiki.info to safe senders. It will tell you the email was already used and resubmit the voter ID. I haven't received it after a few minutes yet.
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Second also, the survey is only posted at the time of the contest, not in advance, so there is no possible way I could have that ready, and going beyond term-term matching isn't what the tool is for. I've provided the questionnaire translations for the past two contests already and fully intend to do this one; if you didn't know that then ok, but it really feels like you're accusing me of just not putting in the effort or something which is frankly insulting and wrong. I care about the questionnaire results more than anything else.
No, I didn't know it was not posted in advance nor knew that the main pages disappeared after the contest and appeared just for the contest...
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So thats why I never got any mail on my live account. I knew that I still had my information from the 13th voting and it worked there last time. This time I just another address.
My character and music votings shouldn't be viewed as a top 10 as the order is kinda random (Except for Marisa on first place). For the characters, the placers after number one change around whenever I make such a list so I just took the ones I like the most currently. For music I just took the ones that came to my mind the fastest. In retrospective, there are a lot of other songs I really love so that might even change when I have the time. The games are pretty much in the correct order though.
Characters
- Marisa Kirisame
- Aya Shameimar
- Kogasa Tatara
- Alice Margatroi
- Remilia Scarlet
- Flandre Scarlet
- Komano Aunn
Music
- Crimson Tower ～ Eastern Dream...
- Necrofantasia
- Retrospective Kyoto
- Satori Maiden ～ 3rd eye
- Bad Apple!!
- Alice in Wonderland
- Voyage 1970
Works
- Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
- Subterranean Animism
- Imperishable Night
- Perfect Cherry Blossom
- Hidden Star in Four Seasons
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In case anyone's curious, I voted for (in no particular order):
1) Sagume
2) Shizuha
3) Seiga
4) Kasen
5) Yukari
6) Shion
7) Doremy
I didn't vote for the song category at all, and I don't care enough to repeat what I voted for the works category here.
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Voter questionnaire
1. Age
2. Gender
3. Residence- [Various regions of Japan]
- Outside Japan: East Asia (China, Taiwan, South Korea, etc)
- Outside Japan: Southeast Asia
- Outside Japan: South/Central/West Asia
- Outside Japan: Europe
- Outside Japan: Africa
- Outside Japan: North America
- Outside Japan: South America
- Outside Japan: Oceania
4. On what difficulty can you 1cc each game? (Clear with no continues)- EoSD (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- PCB (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- IN (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- PoFV (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- MoF (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- SA (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- UFO (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- TD (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- DDC (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- LoLK Pointdevice (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- LoLK Legacy (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
- HSiFS (No answer, Not played, No Easy Clear, Easy Clear, Normal Clear, Hard Clear, Lunatic Clear)
5. Currently-subscribed publications:- Wild and Horned Hermit (No answer, Don't buy, Buy the tankobon volumes, Buy the serialization (Febri))
- Touhou Sangetsusei (No answer, Don't buy, Buy the tankobon volumes, Buy the serialization (Comp Ace))
- Curiosities of Lotus Asia (No answer, Don't buy, Bought the serialization (Strange Creators of Outer World))
6. What draws you into the Touhou Series? (multiple answer)- Music
- Games
- Characters
- Story
- Universe/Setting
- Derivative Works
- Social interaction
7. When did you get into Touhou?- No answer
- PC-98 ~ Shuusou Gyoku (2000/12)
- SSG ~ EoSD (2002/08)
- EoSD ~ PCB (2003/08)
- PCB ~ IN (2004/08)
- IN ~ IaMP (2004/12)
- IaMP ~ PoFV (2005/08)
- PoFV ~ StB (2005/12)
- StB ~ PMiSS (2006/12)
- PMiSS ~ MoF (2007/08)
- MoF ~ SA (2008/08)
- SA ~ UFO (2009/08)
- UFO ~ FW (2010/08)
- FW ~ TD (2011/08)
- TD ~ SoPM (2012/04)
- SoPM ~ DDC (2013/08)
- DDC ~ ISC (2014/05)
- ISC ~ LoLK (2015/08)
- LoLK ~ Old Adam (2016/08)
- Old Adam ~ HSiFS (2017/08)
- HSiFS ~ Current
8. How did you first discover Touhou?- School, Clubs, Family, or other offline connection
- Online game, Chat (IRC), or otherwise through online friends
- Personal site, Blogs, News sites, etc
- Pixiv, Nijie, TINAMI, etc illustration sites
- 2ch, Futaba, Shitaraba etc online anonymous BBS
- Nico Nico Douga (including live broadcasts)
- Youtube or other video sharing sites
- Twitter
- Magazines, TV
- Doujinshi events (Comiket etc) or doujin circle announcements
- Doujin shops or other stores
- Rhythm games that have Touhou music in them
- Found while looking for interesting games
9. If you attend doujin events like Comiket and Reitaisai, what are your main activities there? (multiple answer)- Do not participate (invalidates other options)
- Buy official works
- Buy doujinshi
- Buy doujin music
- Buy doujin games
- Buy doujin goods
- Buy corporate works
- Distribute works (as a circle)
- Staff
- Interaction with circles and friends
- Performing cosplay
- Watching/photographing cosplay
- Corporate collab events (for rhythm games, etc)
- Live concerts (when applicable)
10. Have you voted in the Touhou Series Popularity Contest before?- No answer
- First time
- Voted past 1~3 years
- Voted past 4+ years
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This is mostly a test of the influence of non-Japanese voters on the results.
They're asking for your region in the survey, can't you just ask for that data?
I'd be surprised if the poll wasn't dominated by the Japanese, if only because the website is in Japanese and thus a pain in the ass for most foreigners to vote (I'm not even sure if I'm going to bother myself).
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I've discovered that narrowing my favourite songs into a list of 10 is nearly impossible.
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So much favorites, so few voting spots. I always try to include some of the newer things inside of my votes to show that I care about the newer stuff, but even that turns out to be incrementally difficult, with each new interesting addition to this series. There are may be a few votes that won't change tho, but it'd be pretty convenient if some new spots for new votes get opened in the future. Also I'm kinda curious as to why the pairing votes stopped being a thing. I guess it might've been a one-time only AoCF celebration kind of thing, but it could've been interesting to see how some of the characters whose schtick is mainly about them being with others (Maribel & Renko or Satono & Mai for instance) would have fared in there.
Anwyway, with that out of the way :
Character votes :
-Hinanawi Tenshi (first vote)
-Moriya Suwako
-Kochiya Sanae
-Kishin Sagume
-Toyosatomimi no Miko - smart girl, very very talented. The best!
-Yorigami Shion
-Eternity Larva. Don't judge.
Music votes
-Reach for the Moon, Immortal Smoke (first vote)
-Secret God Matara ~ Hidden Star in All Seasons
-Illusionary White Traveler
-Retrospective Kyoto
-Japanese Saga
-Ame-no-torifune Shrine
-Gathering the Mysterious from All Around Japan
-Dr. Latency's Sleepless Eyes
-The Instant is Shorter Than Planck Time
-The Darkness Brought In by Swallowstone Naturalis Historia
Works votes
-Hidden Star in Four Seasons (first vote)
-Double Dealing Character
-Symposium of Post-mysticism
-Forbidden Scrollery
-Magical Astronomy
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I am quite curious what is going to happen to the position of the new characters from Th16 and Th15.5. Going purely by the fan-art on Twitter/Pixiv, I am expecting majority of them ranking quite high.
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Characters
1. Imaizumi Kagerou
2. Sekibanki
3. Wakasagihime
4. Doremy Sweet
5. Hecatia Lapislazuli
6. Mystia Lorelei
7. Ibuki Suika
Music
1. Bamboo Forest of the Full Moon
2. Shoutoku Legend ~ True Administrator (HM)
3. Primordial Beat ~ Pristine Beat
4. Romantic Escape Flight
5. Romantic Children
6. Illusionary White Traveler
7. A Midsummer Fairy's Dream
8. Bamboo Forest in Flame
9. Bell of the Antipodes
10. A Pair of Divine Beasts
Works
1. DDC
2. HSiFS
3. IN
4. EoSD
5. MoF
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Characters:
Futo (top vote)
Miko
Sumireko
Renko
Sagume
Doremy
Tenshi
Music:
Old Yuanshen (top vote)
Magus Night
Magical Storm
Last Occultism
Battlefield of Hanahazama
Love-Coloured Master Spark
Dr. Latency's Sleepless Eyes
Midnight Spell Card
The Lake Reflects the Cleansed Moonlight
Green Sanatorium
Works
Antinomy of Common Flowers (top)
Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom
Ten Desires
Impossible Spell Card
Dr. Latency's Freak Report
I am quite curious what is going to happen to the position of the new characters from Th16 and Th15.5. Going purely by the fan-art on Twitter/Pixiv, I am expecting majority of them ranking quite high.
Shion maybe, but others, and especially the TH16 characters, didn't seem to impress many people, purely going by the art.
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Characters: I'm sitting out this one. There's only one I dislike (Junko), and the rest float somewhere between "she's all right, I guess" and "she's cool, I guess". Yeah... I don't play for the characters, and I'm too lazy to vote for random high-tier non-Junkos just to hurt Junko's chances. (Ninja edit: On second thought, I might give a vote to Tewi.)
Music:
1. Vanishing Dream ~ Lost Dream (top vote)
2. Illusionary Night ~ Ghostly Eyes
3. Romantic Children
4. Alice in Wonderland
5. Doll of Misery
6. Now, Until the Moment You Die
7. Last Remote
8. Bad Apple!!
9. Fall of Fall ~ Autumnal Waterfall
10. The Gensokyo the Gods Loved
Works:
1. IN (top vote)
2. SA
3. UFO
4. HSiFS
5. MS
(Seriously, why is Pure Furies #1 in this preliminary poll (https://twitter.com/ShioSyakeYakiNi/status/952451981028634624)? What do people see in it? The opening [0:05~0:15] is grating. The part at [0:15~0:20] gets annoying after a few repetitions. The tune starting at [0.38] is decent, but kind of bland by Touhou standards and repeated too much.)
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I hashed out all the near-1000 lines of music title translations but there are still bugs and it's 9AM so I'm going to bed
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(http://i68.tinypic.com/1z1s7qr.jpg)
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(Seriously, why is Pure Furies #1 in this preliminary poll (https://twitter.com/ShioSyakeYakiNi/status/952451981028634624)? What do people see in it? The opening [0:05~0:15] is grating. The part at [0:15~0:20] gets annoying after a few repetitions. The tune starting at [0.38] is decent, but kind of bland by Touhou standards and repeated too much.)
I actually jumped off my chair when seeing Pure Furies taking #1 in this early exit poll, but it's prolly gonna fall down a lot so I'm being more cautious with my anticipation now :V
But I'm not losing hope just yet
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Well time for my yearly comeback to the forum and to cast my vote~
Character
1. Kagerou
2. Wakasagihime
3. Youmu
4. Flandre
5. Benben
6. Alice
7. Doremy
Some different ones from last year but I hope to see them change~ I'm all for Kagerou getting higher~
I'd vote for Shizuha Clarste, especially since she's my touhou girl of the week on twitter but 7 is so hard to choose from T^T
I'm looking forward to the results~
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Hey Drake, thanks for the translation thinger. I appreciate it, made voting way easier!
Gimme a kick in IRC if you get it to include the other things so I can do them easily.
ALSO FOR THE REST OF YOU: here is a barometer of good taste.
1. Kisume (Most buckets means most better)
2. The Shiz (She gets there even without Clarste's well thought out planning.)
3. Hina (She is a good egg)
4. Ran (I've been in a Ran mood lately. No real reason for it)
5. Ringo (Also a good egg)
6. Aunn (I refuse to explain myself)
7. Hatate (Wildcard choice)
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I actually jumped off my chair when seeing Pure Furies taking #1 in this early exit poll, but it's prolly gonna fall down a lot so I'm being more cautious with my anticipation now :V
But I'm not losing hope just yet
Thanks for the info. I'm sick of Septette for a Dead Princess and U.N. Owen was Her? winning, but I'd rather have one of those than the only final boss theme I dislike.
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I may as well do what everyone else is doing.
Characters:
- Hina Kagiyama
- Doremy Sweet
- Momiji Inubashiri
- Minamitsu Murasa
- Meiling Hong
- Raiko Horikawa
- Eiki Shiki
Hina is just Hina so she gets two points. Doremy's appearance in AoCF solidified her as a glorious meme. My thoughts on Momiji are very different from most people so it's hard to explain (for starters, I would never draw her with wolf ears or a tail, similar to Aya not having crow wings). Murasa is just Murasa so she's on this list. Meiling is the only pre-PoFV character I felt the urge to put on this list. Even though I don't like DDC at all, Raiko is definitely my favourite of the music-based characters (most of them aren't very memorable anyway lol). Eiki is just Eiki so she's also on this list.
Really most of my choices have to do with personality and design aesthetics because that's most of what I care about.
Music:
- Akutagawa Ryuunosuke's Kappa ~ Candid Friend (ULiL)
- Road of the Apotropaic God ~ Dark Road
- Shanghai Teahouse ~ Chinese Tea (UNL)
- Our Hisoutensoku
- Cinderella Cage ~ Kagome Kagome
- Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~ Nuclear Fusion
- The Traditional Old Man and the Stylish Girl (ULiL)
- Old Yuanxian
- Eternal Spring Dream
- Bamboo Forest in Flames
AAAAAAGGHH DECISIONS. I struggled so hard trying to condense this, because I really wanted to also have Crazy Backdoor Dancers, Charming Domination ~ Who Done It? and various others. I tried to be fair with games but uh... ULiL has a mix of meh and top-tier music.
Works:
- Mountain of Faith
- Subterranean Animism
- Imperishable Night
- Undefined Fantastic Object
Didn't bother with 5 because I honestly couldn't decide after this. I just really like MoF and SA, and UFO barely made the list.
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(Seriously, why is Pure Furies #1 in this preliminary poll (https://twitter.com/ShioSyakeYakiNi/status/952451981028634624)? What do people see in it? The opening [0:05~0:15] is grating. The part at [0:15~0:20] gets annoying after a few repetitions. The tune starting at [0.38] is decent, but kind of bland by Touhou standards and repeated too much.)
It's not one of my favourites, but I quite like the 1:22-2:05 and 3:33-3:55 parts.
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They're all good songs, Bront.
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Thanks for the info. I'm sick of Septette for a Dead Princess and U.N. Owen was Her? winning, but I'd rather have one of those than the only final boss theme I dislike.
Nostalgia effect. EoSD is basically the root of modern Touhou. It irked me a bit too when I first started participating in the THPP back after when DDC was released, but then I revisited some digital games that I played in my childhood and compared those to their contemporary versions. I must say that I understand the feelings of those people. It's a mostly psychological thing, and psychology goes pretty darn deep.
The one and only? Welp, bad luck I guess. Pure Furies is friggin' grand, and a lot of people certainly seem to agree with me on that. Has been my top fave for two years straight, almost lost the throne to The Concealed Four Seasons but nope :V
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It isn't just bias seeing the past as better or something. As can be seen from the questionnaire data from previous contests, the ownership of games in the series decreases pretty linearly, EoSD having the most and going down from there. This is obviously attributable to people going through the series chronologically. More people own older games than newer ones, so there's naturally going to be more fans.
Also, the fact that they're older means there's been more time for fans to create works and have them become established within the fandom. With the boom of fans around 2007, MoF was the newest work with SWR around the corner, so basically everything made and being made in that period was going to be focused mostly on characters from 6~9 and such. They just benefited a lot from how things played out.
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Updated touhoudict with music titles. Touhou has a lot of music guys.
As a side-note it temporarily no longer works with the list page having "New!!" text nor the best pairings results page because I opted to simplify some stuff, but I'll be working that back in as I restructure it a bit.
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Thanks Drake! You're a prince.
Edit: I am glad that's at the top of the page in 50 view.
As for Musics
1. Rural Makai City Esoterica, because yalls forgot.
2. The Pierrot of the Stare Spangled Banner, because fuck yeah.
3. Bloomy Nobly, Ink-Black Cherry Blossoms ~ Border of Life, because it's still good
4. Hellfire Mantle, because few people remember how hella this one is.
5. The Venerable Ancient Battlefield ~ Suwa Foughten Field, because it is special to me.
6. Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~ Nuclear Fusion, because it goes hard in good ways
7. Primordial Beat ~ Pristine Beat, because see #6
8. The Concealed Four Seasons, because this is probably my favorite endboss fight since Yuyuko, and thus favoritism.
9. September Pumkin, because I don't need to explain myself
10. Voyage 1969, so Kilga can rest assured I voted for one IN thing (also it hella good)
This is random as fuck and based on my feelings right now. Give it a day or two and it'd probably change totally.
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Second exit poll, by the same person as the previous one posted here.
https://twitter.com/ShioSyakeYakiNi/status/953602180589563905
I can imagine that those who liked Kokoro are now voting for Shion (as well).
Yukari (11) and Tenshi(6) got a boost, but voting for them could mean other characters get less... Like Yuyuko! Though, I doubt she'll actually drop to that place.
Also, those who like the Sealing Club tend to be on twitter more often (afaik), so the three members are higher than their previous result.
Last, Keine is now on the 82nd spot.
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Preliminary Top 25 v2 (found here: https://twitter.com/ShioSyakeYakiNi/status/953602180589563905)
1. Koishi
2. Reimu
3. Marisa
4. Youmu
5. Sakuya
6. Tenshi
7. Flandre
8. Remilia
9. Aya
10. Alice
11. Yukari
12. Shion
13. Satori
14. Sanae
15. Mokou
16. Sumireko
17. Udonge
18. Kogasa
19. Doremy
20. Kokoro
21. Yuuka
22. Momiji (<3)
23. Seija
24. Rumia
25. Sagume
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Wow I'm not the only one who thinks Pure Furies is massively overrated. Even beyond it's mostly bland feel, I've been telling people this whole time that the drums are slightly out of sync with the rest of the instruments and it drives me crazy. The curse of having a good ear for rhythm, I guess. :V
Characters
1. Konpaku Youmu
2. Reiuji Utsuho
3. Hakurei Reimu
4. Tatara Kogasa
5. Kirisame Marisa
6. Yakumo Yukari
7. Kijin Seija
Nothing's changed here for a while. Haven't really spent enough time being exposed to some of the newest characters for them to jump up the list, but even then they probably won't break this top 7.
Music (in no particular order beyond the first three)
1. Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~ Nuclear Fusion
2. A Maiden's Illusionary Funeral ~ Necro-Fantasy
3. Beware the Umbrella Left There Forever
4. Lullaby of the Deserted Hell
5. Absorbed in Curiosity Year-Round
6. Faraway Voyage of 380,000 Kilometers
7. Sky of Scarlet Perception
8. Magical Storm
9. Midnight Spell Card
10. Illusionary White Traveler
Also barely changed from recent years except for one HSiFS song getting in. HSiFS's OST is great overall so it's no surprise. I'm afraid as more music is made I'm legit gonna run outta room here lol.
Works
1. Touhou Chireiden (Subterranean Animism)
2. Touhou Fuujinroku (Mountain of Faith)
3. Touhou Kishinjou (Double Dealing Character)
4. Yousei Daisensou (Great Fairy Wars)
5. Touhou Youyoumu (Perfect Cherry Blossom)
Also the same as before. If HSiFS's release system wasn't so horrendously broken it'd probably be a real contender for spot #4.
Questionnaire
1. 29
2. Male
3. Outside Japan: North America
4. "Lunatic Clear" for all except PoFV (not played)
5. "Don't buy" for each
6. Music, Games, and Universe/Setting
7. UFO ~ GFW (specifically, November 2009)
8. Youtube
9. Do not participate
10. Voted past 4+ years
I'm a real veteran at this point, what can I say? Notably I hadn't gotten a Lunatic Legacy clear for LoLK by this time last year, but I ended up fixing that in the spring.
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Took me a bit to realize which one is Jo'on and Shion
Characters (no order after first):
1. Kokoro
Alice
Kogasa
Shion
Tenshi
Aunn
Koishi
Music (same as last time):
1. No More Going Through Doors
UNL the Grimoire of Alice
LoLK Eternal Spring Dream
AoCF Necro-Fantasia
EoSD Chinese Tea
DDC Little Princess
AoCF Battlefield of Flower Threshold
Fires of Hokkai
Crazy Backup Dancers
The Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
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Maaan, it's true. Using a hotmail address means your ID just plain never comes. Then I tried one of those free temporary email addresses and I got the ID in less than a minute, it almost felt like a prank.
I hope having included my 13th poll ID when requesting an ID be sent to the temporary email lowers the chance that my vote is thrown away...
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-Yukari (+2)
-Sagume
-Seija
-Okina
-Jo'on
-Rumia
-Toyohime
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I can confirm that hotmail/live/outlook stuff will go through if you whitelist specifically admin@thwiki.info, if anyone having problems actually never bothered to use a different address.
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Worked fine for me on with Gmail.
Characters:
1-Reimu
2-Satori
3-Keine
4-Marisa
5-Kosuzu
6-Mokou
7-Nitori
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Wow I'm not the only one who thinks Pure Furies is massively overrated. Even beyond it's mostly bland feel, I've been telling people this whole time that the drums are slightly out of sync with the rest of the instruments and it drives me crazy. The curse of having a good ear for rhythm, I guess. :V
Pure Furies is the best boss theme and one of the best themes in the series. Deal with it.
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Pure Furies is the best boss theme and one of the best themes in the series. Deal with it.
Oh please. Here's an accurate viewpoint of what I've seen the fans have been saying is the best boss theme in the series throughout the years: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/List_by_Song
I'm half-kidding but it's not THAT far from the truth now that I think of it.
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Oh please. Here's an accurate viewpoint of what I've seen the fans have been saying is the best boss theme in the series throughout the years: https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/List_by_Song
I'm half-kidding but it's not THAT far from the truth now that I think of it.
What's that link trying to prove?
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What's that link trying to prove?
I've seen sooo many people say "X is the best theme" so many times by now which is why I showed that link. By now I think I saw most of those music themes mentioned as best by different people. Pure Furies is great yeah and the polls shows it's popular but everyone has their definition of best music. This isn't a poll about what is the best theme but about which one is the most popular so the whole "deal with it" attitude is rather obnoxious when everyone has so many different tastes (in a series that also has so many music themes with different styles) and there's so many reasons to like or dislike a specific theme more than the others.
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Reimu is the best character in the series.
U.N. Owen was her/Septette for the Dead Princess is the best theme in the series.
EoSD is the best thing ZUN has done EVAR.
Deal with it. /s
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Folks, please let's not devolve this thread into a subjective debate about which musical theme is "the best" musical theme. Due to the subjectivity of this whole topic, I don't think that there even a "best" or "worst" theme by definition. Everyone likes what they like. Same goes for the characters here.
Pure Furies is the best boss theme and one of the best themes in the series. Deal with it.
While Pure Furies is certainly my favorite in the entire franchise, I wouldn't argue with "the best" or "the worst" because of aforementioned reasons. Everyone has different tastes, and if someone declares a certain theme/character to be "the best", which sounds like an established fact, which it is not, risks to set off an unnecessary clash.
Wow I'm not the only one who thinks Pure Furies is massively overrated. Even beyond it's mostly bland feel, I've been telling people this whole time that the drums are slightly out of sync with the rest of the instruments and it drives me crazy. The curse of having a good ear for rhythm, I guess. :V
Damnit, you almost made me consider swapping places between Pure Furies and The Concealed Four Seasons
I'm not quite sure what other people think about this, but in my ears, "overrated" is such an impure word to use here. It almost sounds like looking down on people who like this theme, same actually goes for saying that any of the, say, Top 20 themes, is "overrated", especially Septette and U.N. Owen, which have been holding the throne for God knows how long. They are not my favorites by a long shot, but even then I firmly refrain from using this word, because it sounds kinda provoking to me and thus it could provoke other people as well.
I guess everyone takes that word differently, huh.
Also, I think that the drum rhythm in Pure Furies is near perfection with the overall melody, considering what this theme is supposed to convey. It evokes such a great deal of emotions for me to the extend that "bland" almost sounds like an insult, but then again, you do you, I do me.
With all that's been said, please at least let's not judge other people's tastes. Sharing one's tastes is perfectly fine, as long as those are respected by everybody involved.
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I've seen sooo many people say "X is the best theme" so many times by now which is why I showed that link. By now I think I saw most of those music themes mentioned as best by different people. Pure Furies is great yeah and the polls shows it's popular but everyone has their definition of best music. This isn't a poll about what is the best theme but about which one is the most popular so the whole "deal with it" attitude is rather obnoxious when everyone has so many different tastes (in a series that also has so many music themes with different styles) and there's so many reasons to like or dislike a specific theme more than the others.
Still don't get why you showed me that link.
if someone declares a certain theme/character to be "the best", which sounds like an established fact, which it is not, risks to set off an unnecessary clash.
You make it sound like someone declaring what they think is the best thing ever is offensive and plain wrong. Can't a guy like Hawaiian pizza and say that this is the best pizza ever?
And on the side note, I never got the hate for Hawaiian pizza. Not my favorite, but I find nothing wrong combining pineapples with pizza.
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You make it sound like someone declaring what they think is the best thing ever is offensive and plain wrong. Can't a guy like Hawaiian pizza and say that this is the best pizza ever?
I never said that doing this is absolutely wrong, but merely implied that tastes are generally not facts and that declaring the own taste as the "best thing ever" might create unpleasant and highly subjective quarrels with people who view the same thing differently, which is the last thing we would want to happen here.
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"Hawaiian pizza is my favorite!" - personal opinion, subjective, okay.
"Hawaiian pizza is the best ever!" - stating a fact, objective, Inquisition is already on its way.
An excuse that you said the latter but "obviously" meant the former doesn't work. Because guess what, some things CAN be objectively better than others. And it doesn't matter what you really meant to people who heard you. They only know what you say, not what you think. So be prepared that everyone will take what you say at face value and learn to word your thoughts better.
Anyway, everyone's wrong, Gensokyo Millennium is obviously the best theme ever :)
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I hear people say "this the best ever" or "this is the greatest thing ever" often, so I wouldn't think too much about whether or not it would offend others.
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Some of yall being dumb as hell.
They're all good characters, Brant. People can like what they like.
Except Mima.
Edit: Also revised my vote. Dropped Aunn, she doens't need my help. Moved Ringo to #6, made Kanako #5
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Night of Nights is objectively the best song in the series, and the Five Magical Stones >>>> your garbage waifu. Deal with it.
More seriously, I still haven't decided my entire list, but after AoCF my opinion of Byakuren's no longer my #1 and in fact has gone waaaay down (I can like asshole characters, but when the thing I love about someone is their heroicness, learning that they're in fact an asshole deep down is pretty soul crushing). On the flip side, my opinion of Tenshi has gone way up. Though more in how much I like her as a character, not so much my opinion of her as a person, if that makes sense.
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If it helps any, the impression I get of
the dream world selves
is that you shouldn't really take them at face value, but as an exaggeration of one's hidden traits. Kind of like shadows in Persona.
Besides, part of what makes Touhou charming for me is how human and non-idealized the characters are in canon.
Anyway, I should leave my votes here for posterity as well. I voted as soon as I could to make up for missing last year's vote:
Characters
1. Gengetsu
2. Yukari
3. Youmu
4. Sanae
5. Tenshi
6. Kurumi
7. Hatate
Having only seven characters made it hard to decide, but I dropped Reimu and Yuka because I felt others needed the votes more. I'm hoping AoCF gives Tenshi a big boost this year!
Music
1. Eternal Shrine Maiden
2. The Gensokyo the Gods Loved
3. Dream Land
4. Illusionary White Traveler
5. Hidden Star in All Seasons
6. Egoistic Flowers
7. The Primal View of Japan The Girl Saw (have been listening to this one a lot recently so I can't really not vote for it)
8. The Barrier at Ame No Torifune Shrine (to give my complimentary vote to a CD song)
9. Infinite Nightmare
10. Faraway Voyage of 380 000 Kilometers (In honor of being attached to one of my all-time favorite stages)
Rather than make a comprehensive list of favorites, I decided to mix my all-time favorites along with songs I wanted to show support for, with an emphasis on more recent games. But there's far too many treasured themes to narrow it down to just ten. D:
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Drake, if you are reading this: Just telling you that Meira and Elis are in the opposite positions in your translation.
Votes - no particular order after 1st:
Character-Votes:
1. Yukari
2. Kokoro
3. Raiko
4. Medicine
5. Utsuho
6. Koishi
7. Meira
Music-Votes:
1. Izanagi Object
2. Evening Star
3. Sylphid Dream
4. Neo Super-Express
5. Little Princess
6. Hartmann
7. Pure Furies
8. The Village in the Dead of Night
9. Peaceful Romancer
10. Necro-Fantasia (AoCF)
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Nice catch. I don't even know how that could have happened.
Also the whole "don't state opinions as fact" thing is dumb. It should be clear enough that anyone talking about their tastes as though it were fact is just exaggeration, but even with topics that have more meaningful measures of quality behind them, reading comments that sound like statements of fact should just be pushed towards the next level of opinion, where the person is saying that the thing has measurable qualities that in their opinion make it good or better than other things. It's all subjective relative to some frame of reference in the end.
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Also the whole "don't state opinions as fact" thing is dumb. It should be clear enough that anyone talking about their tastes as though it were fact is just exaggeration, but even with topics that have more meaningful measures of quality behind them, reading comments that sound like statements of fact should just be pushed towards the next level of opinion, where it's that person's view that the thing has qualities that in their opinion make it good or better than other things. It's all subjective relative to some frame of reference in the end.
Alright, got it.
Sorry for the ruckus that happened earlier because of that, I suppose I shouldn't be too stingy about such things... :ohdear:
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More seriously, I still haven't decided my entire list, but after AoCF my opinion of Byakuren's no longer my #1 and in fact has gone waaaay down (I can like asshole characters, but when the thing I love about someone is their heroicness, learning that they're in fact an asshole deep down is pretty soul crushing). On the flip side, my opinion of Tenshi has gone way up. Though more in how much I like her as a character, not so much my opinion of her as a person, if that makes sense.
I think someone who has a deep desire to do bad things but never acts on it is fundamentally a good person. I mean, otherwise "good" would be almost meaningless. Blaming someone for their thoughts that they never act on seems a little wrong to me too.
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On top of that, I don't think AoCF's depiction of Dream Byakuren is surprising to begin with. Having that kind of hidden self-serving nature is a core part of Byakuren's character imo, being hinted at a little even in her debut but gradually becoming more distinct the more works she appears in. We've been having conversations about her negative parts for ages.
In other news, I just realized that despite spending so much time on the contest, I haven't voted myself yet
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On top of that, I don't think AoCF's depiction of Dream Byakuren is surprising to begin with. Having that kind of hidden self-serving nature is a core part of Byakuren's character imo, being hinted at a little even in her debut but gradually becoming more distinct the more works she appears in. We've been having conversations about her negative parts for ages.
I do agree with this, there've been hints and shades of this side of her since her appearance, it's just never been as blatant or as extreme before (which I guess makes sense given the nature of the Dream selves). My opinion of her dropped a bit after HM and ULiL, but this was kind of the tipping point.
I think someone who has a deep desire to do bad things but never acts on it is fundamentally a good person. I mean, otherwise "good" would be almost meaningless. Blaming someone for their thoughts that they never act on seems a little wrong to me too.
When you put it like that I can agree, but like, that's not really the case here. She says things like "having disciples do all the chores and calling it training makes my life so much easier". Even in the most favorable light, that's less "not acting on bad impulses" and more "selfishly benefitting from good intentions."
Not that I totally hate her character now or anything.
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Personally, I think that characterization of her dream self is because of how she was to begin with. She began helping the youkai completely out of selfishness at first, and only after a good while in helping their plight that she eventually became legitimately empathetic of their cause. Before that? Egocentric b mode.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dream Byakuren is a reflection of that past Byakuren. Perhaps some really, really buried-deep fragment of her that's still in Hijiri's mind? iirc dream selves are a lot more about subconscious than proper conscious, so maybe her behavior is more of that older, repressed side instead of what she truly feels regarding others.
That being said, my only disappointment with the Yorigamis' scenario is that it isn't any longer, because checking other character's dream selves out is really funny.
Aaand for my ranking so this post gets (a little bit!) on topic:
1) Seiga (+2)
2) Hecatia
3) Satono
4) Doremy
5) Futo
6) Joon
7) Shion
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Oh damn it, what i feared the most has literally just happened, people taking the damn dream selfs at face value and not realizing they are exaggerated versions of their original selves, not how they actually feel.
Dream Miko wants to kill all Youkai. Dream Tenshi wants to take over the world. Dream Mamizou wants to take over Japan. We see none of those characters act that way in canon, so there's no reason to assume that they are normally like that
But when it's Byakuren, OF COURSE she has to be the only one who is absolutely 100% like what her dream self is. People seem to have it out for her.
It should be clear enough that anyone talking about their tastes as though it were fact is just exaggeration, but even with topics that have more meaningful measures of quality behind them, reading comments that sound like statements of fact should just be pushed towards the next level of opinion, where the person is saying that the thing has measurable qualities that in their opinion make it good or better than other things.
You underestimate the internet, where people DO state their opinions as facts, and quite often (If not on this community), this isn't real life when we have things like tone of voice to judge what someones true feelings really are, you can't really know completely for sure on the web.
So no, it is bad to state your opinions without terms like "in my opinion", it just creates unnecessary confusion. Don't do it.
Having that kind of hidden self-serving nature is a core part of Byakuren's character imo, being hinted at a little even in her debut
I don't recall anything about Byakuren being self-serving in UFO, that stuff wasn't a thing until her later appearances.
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I missed out on voting last year, so I wanted to make sure I didn't miss it this year.
Characters:
- Mononobe no Futo (1st)
- Koakuma
- Satori Komeiji
- Reimu Hakurei
- Remilia Scarlet
- Nue Houjuu
- Suwako Moriya
Music:
- Cinderella Cage ~ Kagome-Kagome (1st)
- Youkai Domination ~ Who done it?
- Last Remote
- Alice in Wonderland
- Doll Judgement
- Native Faith
- Loose Rain
- Interdimensional Passage of a Ghostly Passenger Ship
- The Gensokyo the Gods Loved
- Septette for a Dead Princess
Works:
- Embodiment of Scarlet Devil (1st)
- Undefined Fantastic Object
- Imperishable Night
- Lotus Land Story
- Ten Desires
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You underestimate the internet, where people DO state their opinions as facts, and quite often (If not on this community), this isn't real life when we have things like tone of voice to judge what someones true feelings really are, you can't really know completely for sure on the web.
The point is that it doesn't really matter what their intention is. Whether they have plenty of well thought-out justifications or none at all, and whether their conviction is strong or not, it's still just their viewpoint. How you read the statement should be the same regardless. If they actually think their opinion has some kind of measurable basis above personal taste they can argue for it, and it only stands as well as they can defend it.
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I don't recall anything about Byakuren being self-serving in UFO, that stuff wasn't a thing until her later appearances.
This part:
[...] She began helping the youkai completely out of selfishness at first, and only after a good while in helping their plight that she eventually became legitimately empathetic of their cause. [...]
...is outright stated in her UFO profile.
As for everything else, there IS a huge distinction. Miko, Tenshi and Mamizou were/are showing those sides of them from the start while Byakuren hides it like it's never been a thing. I guess that looks too much like hypocrisy, no matter whether she just tries to overcome it and fails or is legitimately still feeding her selfish side.
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These are my preferences:
Characters:
- 上白沢 慧音 - Kamishirasawa Keine
- 秋 静葉 - Aki Shizuha
- 秋 穣子 - Aki Minoriko
- 八坂 神奈子 - Yasaka Kanako
- 博麗 霊夢 - Hakurei Reimu
- 矢田寺 成美 - Yatadera Narumi
- リリーホワイト - Lily White
Music:
- ハートフェルトファンシー (SA)
- 廃獄ララバイ (SA)
- 業火マントル (SA)
- 地霊達の起床 (SA)
- 神さびた古戦場 ～ Suwa Foughten Field (MoF)
- 魔法の笠地蔵 (HSiFS)
- 魔法少女達の百年祭 (EoSD)
- 桜色の海を泳いで (HSiFS)
- 明日ハレの日、ケの昨日 (MoF)
- さくらさくら ～ Japanize Dream... (PCB)
Works:
- 東方永夜抄 ～ Imperishable Night
- 東方風神録 ～ Mountain of Faith
- 東方地霊殿 ～ Subterranean Animism
- 東方紅魔郷 ～ the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
- The Grimoire of Marisa
While voting for characters was tough, selecting music and casting votes for it was really really painful; it's emotionally hard labelling some of them as "Best" and set hierachy for them while leaving many others out; maybe the fact you only have to divide songs in three groups (first preference, other nine without sorting and others) could help, but when you have to choice which will get the last empty position and which won't then things become problematic. I have the feeling that choosing 10 possibilities among 300+ (more?) songs (100+ in my case) is not enough... Plus the variety of songs is just enough to say that comparing them is stuff that will make your times hard.
Besides that, while listening each of them in Music Room I appreciated that even minor songs (like IaMP dialog songs, PCB post game song, MoF post game song, MoF/SA Player's Score, others...) are well done in terms of quality; music creates atmosfere while playing danmaku, but it's worthy notice that it's really good by itself.
About characters, well, partly popular, partly not popular, partly new. Fair enough.
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Results are up!
Characters (http://toho-vote.info/result_list_character.php)
Music (http://toho-vote.info/result_list_music.php)
Works (http://toho-vote.info/result_list_title.php)
Friend made this list. I also added it to the wiki (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/THWiki_Popularity_Poll#14th_.282018.29).
1. Reimu
2. Marisa
3. Koishi
4. Youmu
5. Sakuya
6. Flandre
7. Remilia
8. Satori
9. Alice
10. Mokou
11. Aya
12. Tenshi
13. Yukari
14. Sanae
15. Shion
16. Reisen
17. Kokoro
18. Yuyuko
19. Momiji
20. Kogasa
45. Okina
47. Aunn
54. Joon
76. Narumi
83. Mai
87. Satono
95. Eternity
109. Nemuno
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> Pure Furies 3rd
:getdown: :getdown: :getdown:
> Concealed Four Seasons 32nd
:flamingv:
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Miko, Tenshi and Mamizou were/are showing those sides of them from the start while Byakuren hides it like it's never been a thing.
Since when has Mamizou tried to take over japan? Since when has Miko ever tried to kill all Youkai?
Don't try to excuse this, this misunderstanding is just because of the fandom's weird hate/love relationship with Byakuren. No other character gets this much mixed reactions but her IMHO.
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Mamizou has been shown as a schemer who's eager to get power and influence in Gensokyo. Miko has been shown as pro-human and anti-youkai. What their dream selves say are reasonable exaggeration of what have been shown of them.
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(https://78.media.tumblr.com/26643b285c6379e8e0daed1384af1901/tumblr_p2vco6Kg1o1suo2hio1_1280.png)
o /o/
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Wow HSiFS sure is unpopular.
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Anyway, it's interesting how Shion has tons of votes but relatively little first place votes.
Doremy made a huge jump, though it's understandable. She's awesome in AoCF.
How the hell is Momiji that high, though?? She barely appears and the only time she talks is in a SoPM article. Is it that terrible 'awoo' meme?
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Momizi consistently lands around 20. She was #21 for three years in a row IIRC. It's likely a combination of wolf girl + silver hair + sword + Aya love interest (a lot of people either didn't play DS or just straight up 86ed it). She's like Mokou in that she gets a boost from the Inuyasha factor.
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How the hell is Momiji that high, though?? She barely appears and the only time she talks is in a SoPM article. Is it that terrible 'awoo' meme?
I suppose this time she is excused because of her talk and appearance in AFiEU? That was a really cute pic :q
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Wait, Shion jumped over Yuyuko in less than a month? :wat:
And I'm kinda annoyed at Tenko's jump after her AoCF dialogues, but years of fans will do that to you, I guess.
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People all surprised at Shion's placement forget that Sagume was #14 in her debut.
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Some girls escaped the sandwiches, bah. :V
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Kisume slipped down five places you have all fucked up and I will take appropriate actions in the future.
Also Okina beat out Aunn. Did not expect that.
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Miko has been shown as pro-human and anti-youkai.
To the extend of wanting to kill all Youkai? No. She just believes humans need a good leader.
Mamizou has been shown as a schemer who's eager to get power and influence in Gensokyo.
But none of her schemes have portended to taking over all of japan, if anything her goals seem to just be helping young Youkai become better and wiser.
What their dream selves say are reasonable exaggeration of what have been shown of them.
I'm not denying this, i'm just pointing out that people are really quick to accuse Byakuren of being an lazy bum because of her dream self, but they are ignoring that the dream selfs are clearly not how the characters would normally act.
A part of Byakuren might be lazy, that doesn't mean she always goes out of her way to avoid work all day.
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It's not so much that I take Byakuren's dream self to actually represent her. It's definitely and clearly exaggerated. But with characters like Mamizou or Miko they make it very clear upfront what you're getting. No, Mamizou isn't trying to take over Japan. But she's definitely a very ambitious person. This is just the traits that we already see taken to the next level.
On the flip side, Byakuren very much tries to hide this side of herself. Deep down she's still the woman who's terrified of death, who uses magic to make herself look pretty, and uses her disciples so that she doesn't have to do chores. While Miko's dream self is an exaggeration of her upfront traits, Byakuren's internal thoughts contradict the way she tries to present herself. It makes her seem hypocritical, she's pretending to be something she's not.
As Drake said, this has always been the case with her. It's that, for me, AoCF really hammered it home. And it's not like I think she's a horrible person or anything. It's just that the reason I've always liked her so much is because I've always seen her as an incredibly selfless, "paragon of virtue", youkai Jesus type character. While it was my mistake in the first place for not reading the signs, now that I understand how she is she's just no longer as awesome as I once thought. It's kind of like learning that santa claus is just your dad in a costume. There's really no one to hate or blame, you're not going to hold it against your dad, but you're not going to listen for reigndeer or leave out cookies anymore.
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On the flip side, Byakuren very much tries to hide this side of herself. Deep down she's still the woman who's terrified of death, who uses magic to make herself look pretty, and uses her disciples so that she doesn't have to do chores. While Miko's dream self is an exaggeration of her upfront traits, Byakuren's internal thoughts contradict the way she tries to present herself. It makes her seem hypocritical, she's pretending to be something she's not.
Doesn't everyone have a part of them like that, though? The fact that Byakuren has some selfish tendencies buried deep down doesn't change the fact that she genuinely wishes for the wellbeing of youkai and humans. Nor do them occasionally leaking out into things like delegating chores out of laziness take away from all of her good qualities. If anything, I'd say it paints Byakuren as a flawed individual who's trying her best to live a good life on the path she has chosen, shouldering her past and the parts of it that linger with her.
As for the results, I for one am fairly happy with how the poll turned out. Seeing Tenshi get 12th place was exciting, as was seeing a good mix of characters in the top 30. I'm a little surprised at the relatively low showings for the HSiFS cast though. I had thought at least Aunn would get a strong placing - though one certainly can't complain with where she landed.
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the reason I've always liked her so much is because I've always seen her as an incredibly selfless, "paragon of virtue", youkai Jesus type character
This is, I would say, the reason Byakuren is such a polarizing character, as was mentioned earlier; this had been a rather obviously untrue description of Byakuren for quite a while now. The MarisaB route of UFO even hinted at it, but after that, it really came through in SoPM and has been not unclear in almost every appearance she's made since. But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.
Frankly, I think Byakuren is far more interesting as the flawed character she is. A large part of my Miko fanness stems from how much of a rude, arrogant asshole she is even in her altruism. I can understand that people may want/need pure innocent oneesan characters in their lives (as much as I don't really see the appeal myself), but Touhou is probably the last place to look for that archetype, and it's uninformed at best and intellectually dishonest at worst to project that archetype onto Byakuren.
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So I uh... kinda expected every result that appeared.
I was also trying to not bash my skull in while reading through the music list because there are some pretty terrible strange opinions there (Luna Dial in 16th? Above Flowering Night in 30th? Ack).
Also Hina got 50th! It's not spectacular, but I approve anyway.
How the hell is Momiji that high, though?? She barely appears and the only time she talks is in a SoPM article. Is it that terrible 'awoo' meme?
Because people either don't read up on their canon or do but don't actually stick to it lmao. Plus what Kilgamayan said about Inuyasha.
Even though it's not confirmed whether or not she actually has wolf ears or a tail, she probably has some of the most furry appeal of all Touhou characters, so she likely gets a lot of votes from that demographic too.
Kisume slipped down five places you have all fucked up and I will take appropriate actions in the future.
You'll have my vote next year. :V
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This is, I would say, the reason Byakuren is such a polarizing character, as was mentioned earlier; this had been a rather obviously untrue description of Byakuren for quite a while now. The MarisaB route of UFO even hinted at it, but after that, it really came through in SoPM and has been not unclear in almost every appearance she's made since. But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.
Frankly, I think Byakuren is far more interesting as the flawed character she is. A large part of my Miko fanness stems from how much of a rude, arrogant asshole she is even in her altruism. I can understand that people may want/need pure innocent oneesan characters in their lives (as much as I don't really see the appeal myself), but Touhou is probably the last place to look for that archetype, and it's uninformed at best and intellectually dishonest at worst to project that archetype onto Byakuren.
But see, this is part of what I was saying. It was my own fault for projecting that onto Byakuren, I should have acknowledged the signs and hints before it got to this point. I don't dislike her because "she did a 180", I don't even dislike her at all. I like characters that are extremely passionate about their ideals, who'll do anything to reach those ideals. Byakuren is not that character, so it's only natural that I wouldn't be as intesely into her now that I can see this. That said, while she's not my single favorite character, she still easily makes my top 7 because I do like the character that she actually is (or at least the way she seems now to me, maybe aspects of her are still going over my head, who knows.)
That said, I can enjoy more complex characters too. I like Tenshi and Miko a whole lot more after their AoCF portrayals, I've always loved Reimu for her straigthforwardness, and while she's less complex and more straight up an asshole, Seija's consistently been one of my favorites. It's just that that wasn't what I was seeing in Byakuren before. I've reevaluated my opinion, and I don't like her complexities as much as, say, Reimu or Miko.
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Kisume had to go down, because new characters were added. It's not that she was less popular, she's just not more popular than she was last year.
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I voted for Shizuha as my favorite, glad to see she moved up a tad.
Star Voyage 2008 came in 273rd, I'm a little sad but its a bit too obscure :/ No result surprised me, except maybe Shion.
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Kisume had to go down, because new characters were added. It's not that she was less popular, she's just not more popular than she was last year.
I will fight you. I will fight you on the beaches, I will fight you on the landing grounds, I will fight you in the fields and in the streets, I will fight you in the hills.
Honestly I'm surprised she didn't slip further.
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Very happy about Junko being top 30, about people actually liking LoLK (I thought everyone was silly "wow but rng it's sooo unfair junko patterns are soooo ugly lol" crowd), about Pure Furies in 3rd place and about most new themes getting good positions. Crazy Backup Dancers in particular.
I'm unhappy about people not really liking PoFV, about SA not beating MoF and about The Sea One's Home Planet is Reflected and Fires of Hokkai, two of my favorite themes, getting meh positions. I guess people like energetic final stage themes more.
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it really came through in SoPM and has been not unclear in almost every appearance she's made since. But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.
Why is it that every popularity discussion thread would devolve into Byakuren bashing, just because a few veteran fans on the board are on the opposition side?
"It really came through in SoPM"? "People that knew the truth"? Oh please, don't speak like your stance is the objective 1 truth, whereas there have already been threads arguing about this on ends without a conclusion...
...but oh, how convenient it is to still be able to declare that anyone who disagree with the alleged narrative, and choose to defend her are ignorant and "willfully discarded", whereas those on your opposition sides are the only one who is allowed to be considered the enlightened one who knows the truth.
It was my own fault for projecting that onto Byakuren, I should have acknowledged the signs and hints before it got to this point.
All the "signs" and "hints" so far have been cherry pickings, context warping, exaggerations and mountain out of molehill
There has hardly been any silver bullet pointing out "Oh she was really ____ afterall!". Her personality has been quite consistent, but it's convenient to cherrypick and exaggerate minor points here and there to fit a certain narrative
The Byakuren Derangement Syndrome has really gone far round here
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Look, I'm not saying she's a monster. I'm saying she's not "our perfect and pure Youkai Jesus who'll stop at nothing to reach her dreams". Since that's what I liked about her, learning that she actually isn't that way has made me reevaluate my opinion.
All I was trying to say was "Byakuren's not my favorite anymore after AoCF, but I like Tenshi a bit more than I did before" and somehow it turned into this >_>
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Look, I'm not saying she's a monster. I'm saying she's not "our perfect and pure Youkai Jesus who'll stop at nothing to reach her dreams". Since that's what I liked about her, learning that she actually isn't that way has made me reevaluate my opinion.
All I was trying to say was "Byakuren's not my favorite anymore after AoCF, but I like Tenshi a bit more than I did before" and somehow it turned into this >_>
Yeah, but all of this "AoCF revelation" is based on what? A dreamworld version of herself, in a scene that clearly went for a humorous gag tone?
The dreamworld versions of characters are already specifically stated to be greatly exaggerated and magnified of their actual self; and most dreamworld version scenes are largely over the top ridiculous played-for-laugh, clearly meant to be taken with great grains of salt
...if all the dreamworld versions are to be taken at actual face value, then almost everyone would be legit considered either a raging loony... or outright *sshole
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...if all the dreamworld versions are to be taken at actual face value, then almost everyone would be legit considered either a raging loony... or outright *sshole
Well, a good proportion of characters are assholes already, even without their ids being manifest. But there are certainly ones that I wouldn't like nearly as much if they didn't have that side to them. Satori, Marisa, Yuuka, and so on.
More specifically, to me this actually reflects well on Byakuren. Like so many, she does have that side to her that she doesn't want to outright admit. But Donut has the right of it - she's attempting to step away from her sins and walk a straight path, even if she's not perfect about it. She was never a flawless "Youkai Jesus" like the meme has it. But for me, it's more compelling to see her fighting against this selfish aspect of herself, rather than not having it in the first place.
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More specifically, to me this actually reflects well on Byakuren. Like so many, she does have that side to her that she doesn't want to outright admit. But Donut has the right of it - she's attempting to step away from her sins and walk a straight path, even if she's not perfect about it. She was never a flawless "Youkai Jesus" like the meme has it. But for me, it's more compelling to see her fighting against this selfish aspect of herself, rather than not having it in the first place.
I guess the more base breaking question would be "is she really though?" Whether she's a hypocrite pretending to be a saint or a good person with "bad" thoughts but still trying to overcome them is pretty much up to individual interpretation at this point, I think.
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Why is it that every popularity discussion thread would devolve into Byakuren bashing, just because a few veteran fans on the board are on the opposition side
Not just Byakuren. Every popularity contest people try to justify and argue why the vote of perhaps thousands of fans is right or wrong. Joking around and having fun, because character or music theme is ranked Nth, is no longer allowed. Nope. Everything has to be exactly and precisely explained and every aspect is magnified to study whether the voting matches official sources.
Imagine if nobody was allowed to vote for their favourite character because they wanted.
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I'm a bit ashamed I forgot to vote for Byakuren now. If anything, my opinion on her has improved since AOCF. Instead of seeing her as sombody purely above me and respecting her as a hero, I now see her as sombody at the same level as me - trying to become a better person. She's trying to be the youkai jesus saint - she's trying her best. Nobody's perfect though. She has a bit of laziness to her but she's trying not to be lazy. If anything, enlightenment comes with it's own form of laziness. It's somthing to be overcome and you'd be hard pressed to find sombody who doesn't have somthing to overcome.
If any dream version has lowered my opinion of anybody it would be Toyosatomimi. She still wants to kill youkai like she tried in Hopeless Masquerade and she's also quite classist it seems. While she's clearly not as genocidal as her dream version, she's still not a likeable person to me and it seems that she hasn't improved.
I seem to take into account character development and potential quite a bit into how much I like a character. I prefer Joon over Shion because of how likely they are to improve - however it seems that activating people's "instict to protect" is much stronger than how much they're willing to improve. That being said, maybe I'm not taking into account the kind of love that Seija gets - where people love her because she isn't nice. I do prefer my nicer characters (even if I do have a different kind of love for Seija and Shion). To be fair though, Shion is more memorable.
I also don't know how much hype has played into this. Shion is a genuinely popular character but I half feel that coming out of AOCF hype has damaged the chances of the HSoFS characters. Okina will probably get her spot though - that's somthing I'm looking forward to.
Theorising why people got so high in the popularity contest is fun - even if I might be wrong.
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Except Marisa, I voted those that came to my mind first. Normally, Reimu would have made my list, too but she is gonna get first place either way, so might as well give someone else the spotlight.
Again, its pretty close between Marisa and Koishi. I fear the day where Marisa might lose her second place. (Yes, I am aware that Koishi got first in 2015 with Marisa on third place once)
Its also sad to see Aya kicked from the top ten. Seems like HSiFS didn't had the impact as I anticipated. Then again, it was released in the middle of the year and the human attention span isn't that long. At least Cirno did rise 4 spots. :V
Can't say much about the music. "U.N. Owen was her?", like Reimu, is a save first place with Spetette on second. But I wonder why Pure Furies did see a rise in popularity. I love the song, don't get me wrong, but it "only" made place 10 last year. I wonder if some of the doujin circles are responsible with covers of the song.
Also, Youmu has still a pretty strong fanbase with so many first votes.
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But a substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.
I must thank the audience for immediately providing perfect examples of both of these. :V
snip
Yeah, like, there's no problem at all if one re-evaluates their opinion based on new information. That's just being human. No need to worry. I was using your post as a convenient springboard to a clarifying point rather than trying to put you down or anything like that. The only thing worth being ashamed of in this sort of situation is being intellectually dishonest, which is an active, informed decision one makes.
rant rant rave
Who is "bashing" Byakuren? Pointing out that a flawed character has flaws is not putting that character down. In fact, in that very same post, I point out that I enjoy Miko largely precisely because of her flaws, and also say that being flawed makes Byakuren more interesting! Please do not employ misrepresentation and hyperbole if you wish to honestly discuss this.
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It's bashing because yalls (not you in particular, Kilga) blow it out of proportion and try to go all "SEE! SEE! SHE WAS ALWAYS THE WORST!" It's weird purity testing that only gets applied to Byakuren.
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It's weird purity testing that only gets applied to Byakuren.
She's the only one who tries to look better than she is without acknowledging her negative side at all. That's called hypocrisy and nobody likes it. Why is that so hard to understand?
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Yeah, see, this is that bullshit right there.
Yalls acting like Byakuren is some unique awful thing because she has flaws and, gasp, tries to overcome them and be a better person rather than jsut wallowing in crapulence, as if it were somehow being deceptive rather than...how people are. No one else gets put up to this standard. You don't see people going "Well ACTUALLY! Reimu is super lazy and she's being a hypocrit by solving incidents!"
Like, this is some odd parallel to when people are like, "X person used gay as a slur ten years ago, so they are all terrible and 100% bad forever!" and completely ignore that maybe a person can grow and change and be better over time?
That was a very helpful example of my point, thank you.
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You don't see people going "Well ACTUALLY! Reimu is super lazy and she's being a hypocrit by solving incidents!"
As a matter of fact, I do.
Also, I'm surprised you're completely unaware of Streisand effect. Because that's exactly why Byaku's dream self caused such a ruckus in fandom. For others they're an exaggeration of what we see and know of. For her it's an exaggeration of what everyone tries to ignore or wave off as if it's nothing.
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It's bashing because yalls (not you in particular, Kilga) blow it out of proportion and try to go all "SEE! SEE! SHE WAS ALWAYS THE WORST!" It's weird purity testing that only gets applied to Byakuren.
I would argue Byakuren is not generally unique in this regard and point to the Fortune Teller's somehow-increasing popularity as a fandom-indictment of the idea that Reimu is a good girl/hero/whatever. Though, perhaps Reimu and the Fortune Teller really only applies to the Eastern fandom while the Byakuren issue really only applies to the Western fandom.
Regardless, I believe Byakuren is the only 2hu to get this "purity test" because Byakuren more than any other 2hu has a fanbase that tries to apply purity to her in the first place. It's been long enough since her debut and the title "Youkai Jesus" has been used jokingly often enough that people have likely forgotten (or never realized in the first place) that the term was originally coined and used completely unironically. That is, if you see folks trying to knock Byakuren off her pedestal, it may very likely be because of how she was (at least somewhat dishonestly) put on that pedestal in the first place. Had Byakuren's flaws been generally acknowledged, accepted, and appreciated since the beginning, there wouldn't be a tenth of the people holding her feet to the fire.
It is true that Byakuren is not the literal worst. (It is not possible for her to be the literal worst as long as she is in the same franchise as Remilia. :colbert:)
It is also true that she is not a flawless saint. Both of these sentiments are worthy of scorn, especially if they come about as a result of intellectual dishonesty.
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^Seconded everything Purvis said
Please do not employ misrepresentation and hyperbole if you wish to honestly discuss this.
...and calling everyone who has a different argument from you as ignorant or willfully ignoring, then comparing them to polarizing politicians... is totally fair, just, sensible and not hyperbolic at all?
Reminder: substantial portion of her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth
You can?t throw an ignorant insulting dismissive statement at the fanbase, then get back on your virtuous high horse when being challenged
She?s the only one who tries to look better than she is without acknowledging her negative side at all. That's called hypocrisy and nobody likes it. Why is that so hard to understand?
See? I can also use the exact same quote of ?thank for immediately providing perfect examples? of just how severe the Byakuren Witchhunt Syndrome is at this board.
Tries to look better? Base on what? Since when? She?s never went further than saying she is a monk trying to help people... she?s never claimed to be a second-coming-super-ultra-holy-deluxe-saviour; and yet everyone treating any instance she even show a slightest of flaws as ?See? She was a lying hypocrite all along!?
It?s a witchhunt base on the strawman you project onto herself, that?s what it is
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I would argue Byakuren is not generally unique in this regard and point to the Fortune Teller's somehow-increasing popularity as a fandom-indictment of the idea that Reimu is a good girl/hero/whatever. Though, perhaps Reimu and the Fortune Teller really only applies to the Eastern fandom while the Byakuren issue really only applies to the Western fandom.
Regardless, I believe Byakuren is the only 2hu to get this "purity test" because Byakuren more than any other 2hu has a fanbase that tries to apply purity to her in the first place. It's been long enough since her debut and the title "Youkai Jesus" has been used jokingly often enough that people have likely forgotten (or never realized in the first place) that the term was originally coined and used completely unironically. That is, if you see folks trying to knock Byakuren off her pedestal, it may very likely be because of how she was (at least somewhat dishonestly) put on that pedestal in the first place. Had Byakuren's flaws been generally acknowledged, accepted, and appreciated since the beginning, there wouldn't be a tenth of the people holding her feet to the fire.
It is true that Byakuren is not the literal worst. (It is not possible for her to be the literal worst as long as she is in the same franchise as Remilia. :colbert:)
It is also true that she is not a flawless saint. Both of these sentiments are worthy of scorn, especially if they come about as a result of intellectual dishonesty.
Well, when Byakuren came out and Youkai Jesus hit, there wasn't much contrary information? Like, it happened on day zero, before like anything other than the ingame text was translated. So it's not really a dishonest basis so much as a consequence of linear time causing fandom to happen?
And even then, it's hardly the first time background in the manual and stuff has gone ignored for long periods of time. Yet...there's some weird things where some folks just make it a point to hurl themselves at trying to tear down Byakuren because it's "inaccurate", yet never said a word against, say, mischaracterizations of Meiling or Ran or Chen? (Not you, of course, because I know you've spoken out on a few of those at least). So it's probably not correcting the record in most cases?
Really it just comes off as people real mad that Byakuren is more popular than their favorite, and have a go at her because it's easier than building up their favorite instead. Not every case, obviously, but there's sure enough of them.
Point of Fortuneman, though. He never made a huge splash in the west, and seems to in the east?
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Also, I'm surprised you're completely unaware of Streisand effect. Because that's exactly why Byaku's dream self caused such a ruckus in fandom. For others they're an exaggeration of what we see and know of. For her it's an exaggeration of what everyone tries to ignore or wave off as if it's nothing.
You are not even using applying the Streisand Effect in the correct context. No one is even trying to hide anything, except for your own paranoia projection of people doing so.
There has been absolutely little to no so-claimed ?ruckus? (except maybe in this witchhuntint circle), because people actually are sensible enouh to know the dreamworld portrayal of everyone is an absolute joke. The only people who would actually try to find the silverbullet in these dreamworld portrayals, are only those with the agenda of character assassination in the first place
EDIT: Also, I?ve just realised this whole thread?s entire argument hinges on the idea that people actually takes the ?Youkai Jesus?meme at 100% literal values
That would be an entirely gross mischaracterization and strawman of the entire fan group. Since, c?mon, you are actually trying to argue that people takes meme as absolute truth. Considering the majority of people on the internet do not even believe in the idea of a ?virtuous Jesus? in the first place, any reference of the meme is almost always tongue-in-cheek
...because that?s what a ?meme? is about
And yet you guys try to take this as absolute face value, and went on a crusade to try tearing down this perfect saint virtuous image that no-one seriously believe in the first place; to the point of pointing out any instance of her misdeeds as ?hypocritical?, for failing to meet up with the standards that she never once did impose on herself; nor do people actually try to argue for.
In short, the thing you are trying to disprove doesn?t even exist... and yet to take it even one step further, everyone here use any instance of people trying to disprove some of the more malicious mischaracterization and accusation as ?See? You guys do believe she is perfect afterall!?
No, just because we believe some of the accusations are grossly unfair, and misrepresentative... that doesn?t mean we would have to adhere to the idea that she is a pure virtuous Holy being, in order to argue otherwise
Because that would just be a false dichotomy
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I agree with Purvis that, at least at first, there wasn't much going against her portrayal as Youkai-Jesus during her initial appearance, so it's understandable why someone would have viewed her that way back then. Saying no one takes the "meme" seriously is a bit unfair when people (not just me) really do. This (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4A6suaAH8) PV actually influenced my opinion of her a lot (call me whatever for letting the fandom influence me, I guess).
I also agree that, post SoPM, the fact that she isn't Youkai Jesus became more and more apparent. However, for me and only me (I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their opinion and I'm not arrogant enough to assume it was this way for anyone else) AoCF was the tipping point. It wasn't the "silver bullet" that killed the witch, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. As I said, my opinion of her dropped a bit after HM and a bit after ULiL. Seeing her dream self, for me, just really drove home the point the previous games had been making.
You guys are really blowing this out of proportion tbh. Things don't have to be as black and white as "intellectual dishonesty vs a witchhunt against a a waifu".
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Well, when Byakuren came out and Youkai Jesus hit, there wasn't much contrary information? Like, it happened on day zero, before like anything other than the ingame text was translated. So it's not really a dishonest basis so much as a consequence of linear time causing fandom to happen?
And even then, it's hardly the first time background in the manual and stuff has gone ignored for long periods of time. Yet...there's some weird things where some folks just make it a point to hurl themselves at trying to tear down Byakuren because it's "inaccurate", yet never said a word against, say, mischaracterizations of Meiling or Ran or Chen? (Not you, of course, because I know you've spoken out on a few of those at least). So it's probably not correcting the record in most cases?
Really it just comes off as people real mad that Byakuren is more popular than their favorite, and have a go at her because it's easier than building up their favorite instead. Not every case, obviously, but there's sure enough of them.
I've had Byakuren fans tell me directly, in no uncertain terms, that they were taking canon information and knowingly discarding it because it did not fit their do-no-wrong characterization of her. So...I don't really know what you want me to do here. I will certainly do my best to not directly accuse someone of discussing Byakuren in bad faith if I don't know for sure that they are, but I also cannot and will not pretend all Byakuren fans act in good faith, because I know for sure at least some do not.
Perhaps the Byakuren supporters in this thread were genuinely not aware that such people existed, and have existed for quite a while? (SoPM was my first experience with them, but it's possible they existed before that.) I wouldn't hold it against any of you if you didn't. But this is where I am, and presumably at least some other people are, coming from.
Paz: You need to calm the fuck down before you post in this thread again. This is your one warning.
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So while y'all are still talking about Byakuren's polarizing popularity, I'm actually very curious (yet also very happy still) as to why Koishi still top 3?
Like, I'm legitimately curious. I know when she got 1st place in 2015 (and made a very sudden jump to top 3 for the 10th popularity poll), I thought it was gonna be just a short-lived popularity jump due to a few factors (HM just came out which made her randomness/silliness actually canonical, and the whole popularity poll reset). But now she's just been consistently hovering in top 3 and I'm curious as to why. Remember that in 9th popularity poll, she was only ranked 14th, lower than her older sister. (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/THWiki_Popularity_Poll/2008-2012#9th_.282012.29)
I mean, I'm not complaining but just surprised that her extremely high popularity is still this consistent.
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Well, she still shows up in fighting games and her appearances are still quite memorable.
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I've had Byakuren fans tell me directly, in no uncertain terms, that they were taking canon information and knowingly discarding it because it did not fit their do-no-wrong characterization of her. So...I don't really know what you want me to do here. I will certainly do my best to not directly accuse someone of discussing Byakuren in bad faith if I don't know for sure that they are, but I also cannot and will not pretend all Byakuren fans act in good faith, because I know for sure at least some do not.
Perhaps the Byakuren supporters in this thread were genuinely not aware that such people existed, and have existed for quite a while? (SoPM was my first experience with them, but it's possible they existed before that.) I wouldn't hold it against any of you if you didn't. But this is where I am, and presumably at least some other people are, coming from.
I mean. We had a dude famously flame out because Mystia wasn't the pure idol he thought she was, and had another flame out because Hatate existed and this convinced him that Touhou wasn't tightly plotted and ZUN was "just making stuff up". Maybe it's just because I never really encountered them, but those seem like edge cases?
Also: Koishi's been a meme for a long time. Getting an official appearance just solidified people behind her, I think.
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So while y'all are still talking about Byakuren's polarizing popularity, I'm actually very curious (yet also very happy still) as to why Koishi still top 3?
Like, I'm legitimately curious. I know when she got 1st place in 2015 (and made a very sudden jump to top 3 for the 10th popularity poll), I thought it was gonna be just a short-lived popularity jump due to a few factors (HM just came out which made her randomness/silliness actually canonical, and the whole popularity poll reset). But now she's just been consistently hovering in top 3 and I'm curious as to why. Remember that in 9th popularity poll, she was only ranked 14th, lower than her older sister. (https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/THWiki_Popularity_Poll/2008-2012#9th_.282012.29)
I mean, I'm not complaining but just surprised that her extremely high popularity is still this consistent.
I think I read somewhere back then that her psychopathic and murderous nature (due to the urban legend) in ULiL gained a lot of attention from the fans. I guess since then, people just stuck with her.
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I mean. We had a dude famously flame out because Mystia wasn't the pure idol he thought she was, and had another flame out because Hatate existed and this convinced him that Touhou wasn't tightly plotted and ZUN was "just making stuff up". Maybe it's just because I never really encountered them, but those seem like edge cases?
No, at least a couple were people I respected (and still respect) and are at least somewhat within the overall Touhou fandom.
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We're talking about Touhou Project, a series where everyone gets enjoyment out of the series in so many ways that has so many elements set in an open-ended manner that causes the fanbase to come up with all sorts of ideas, theories and all that good stuff. It is rather likely... no, a guarantee that everyone will take their own interpretation of a character regardless of how canon works even if it guarantees that they're "wrong" in the sense that canon elements brought certain things that contradicts how they feel about a character. If someone wants to think Byakuren is some pure lady or think she's the opposite then it's going to happen regardless because they might interpret how she behaves in different ways. Byakuren may be polarizing in some ways but then we could bring up how some characters may have done or actually did things that could be considered horrible by some people but it's set aside for all sorts of reasons. An example in my case is Minamitsu who's detailed in a pretty grim way in SoPM but I still found her very sympathetic in some ways. I know some people who considers her a horrible monster instead.
It just can't be helped and one can say one can joke, argue and all that as they want but this is Touhou Project, a series that, again is enjoyed for so many different reasons with people who don't care about the lore and might like some characters just for their looks, only cares about the music or is just interested in playing the Danmaku games for the challenge. For every single person who votes for Reimu, one might vote because she's the first character that comes to mind, because they like how she acts, how she look, nostalgia or all sorts of other reasons. Also yeah, I got the context of what was written earlier too seriously and I should've known better. :3
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(It is not possible for her to be the literal worst as long as she is in the same franchise as Remilia. :colbert:)
Hey man, leave ojousama alone :ohdear:
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Since, c?mon, you are actually trying to argue that people takes meme as absolute truth.
People latching on to a first impression is a very natural human thing to do. And when it comes to Touhou, 90% of first impressions come via memes.
Also, there is always the subgroup of humanity that will take even the most obvious jokes as serious matters.
If you need any more evidence, just look at the state US politics is in.
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To nip that particular line of thinking in the bud, "Youkai Jesus" was indeed created and originally used unironically, as I stated before. It has become a silly meme since, but it has not always been one. People who did not have a proper finger on the pulse of the fandom when UFO was new should probably refrain from commentary on the origins of that phrase.
Hey man, leave ojousama alone :ohdear:
It's not my fault you have shit taste :V
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Hey man, leave ojousama alone :ohdear:
Besides, that's a funny say of saying that Flandre
is the worst. :^)
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Paz: You need to calm the fuck down before you post in this thread again. This is your one warning.
Yeah sure, flaunt and abuse your power because it?s much more convenient to do so when people call you out; since you are the only one here allowed to be dismissive of people and throwing outrageous blanket statement. I will gladly take my banhammer as a badge of honor because that would just show for the amount of echo-chambering going on here.
But to not digress, I am sure those unsavory fan members exist, as that is the nature of fan; but they would only consist of a few vocal minority and is not at all representative of the Byakuren fandom as a whole. Yet, the amount of organised effort in calling them out, proving them wrong, is completely disproportionate to just how little of a concern they are; in comparison to the majority of the fanbase who get grouped together and got blanket statements thrown at just because a few individual exist.
And it?s not like these ?debunking attempts? are actually fair and just either, where something as ludicrous as ?Dreamworld? is considered legit evidence just so people in the thread can go ?See? She was a hypocrite all along. The fans are ignorant if they don?t agree with my truth?. Of course provocative statements like that would cause people like I showing up just to challenge for how unfair and one-sided those narratives are.
And despite the tough combatative stance, I believe I?ve still latgely remained respectful without hurling direct insults or foul language. If your only ground for banning is tone-policing, because people get upset with you for the thing that you said about them, then so be it.
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Aye, seems a bit misguided to judge a character based on speech and behavior that they would NOT normaly adopt tbh. The dream selves are pretty much the expression of whatever their real selves suppress or try to suppress irl. While these are actual part of what some characters truly feel about some things, there is a divide between the way the dream and real selves act and speak. See Reisen for example : while understandably frustrated from being thrown around quite a bit, she is too timid and indecisive to properly respond. Dream!Reisen, however, was pretty gangsta about things and went ahead to beat the sources of her frustrations (and in a twist of irony, somehow screw the real Reisen over). Is it fair to consider the real Reisen to be a brutish, barbaric manatee ? Definitely not, since that's not how she would act in the first place.
Even so, I wouldn't necessarily dismiss entirely the dream selves completely when it comes to how indicative they are when it comes to anyone's most intimate thoughts and feelings. There is a reason why Doremy pretty much say they're "honest". Those dream versions don't put any pretenses nor do they rationalize their behavior. They're only expressing whatever their real selves might've already been inclined to feel. Byakuren might live the rigorous life of a vegan ascetic who tries to change the world and maybe try for enlightenment along the way : by any means, feeling a bit tired with all of that and possibly wanting to take a few shortcuts, really really deep down, should be pretty reasonable.
Byakuren just so happen to get the short end of the stick cuz the indolent, sleazy laissez-faire attitude of her dream self and her admissions when it comes to some of the tasks at Myouren temple kinda go against the hard-at-work serious reliable head priest image of hers. It's a bit less problematic for Miko, Mamizou and Tenshi cuz their dream versions don't particularly make their real selves come off as sleazy, nor does it hurt any particular image of theirs, be it in universe or in the fandom.
I guess it's a bit like when seeing that a superior who you'd look up to turns out to be watching p*rn or something, or that the girlfriend so happens to need to poop gets discovered : while not damning, it's not exactly something that's good for their image. I guess being inclined to laziness might be not exactly something that anyone would want to see from someone who is supposedly mainly about priesthood, ascetism and discipline. Dream!Byakuren just sends the thought police to real Byakuren's door or something.
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Yet, the amount of organised effort in calling them out, proving them wrong, is completely disproportionate to just how little of a concern they are
See, here's the thing it appears a lot of people apparently completely missed: The start of this current thread tangent had nothing to do with Byakuren haters, it started with a Byakuren fan lowering his(?) opinion of her due to her characterization in AoCF (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21238.msg1379008.html#msg1379008). This person doesn't hate her or anything and had still been a fan while acknowledging her flaws shown in previous games (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21238.msg1379025.html#msg1379025). No one else had really done any more than point out that Byakuren's character has been discussed in the Touhou fandom for ages (which is a factually true statement) before the over-emotional defensive takes started and the thread became an argument over how the fandom perceives the 41st-most popular Touhou.
Like, please, please point me to a post in this thread where a hater comes in and says Byakuren sucks. With how, ah, passionate you've been about this topic in this thread in particular, surely a single post shouldn't be hard to find?
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Sure, just conveniently ignore everything I have pointed out about people misrepresenting. Sure, wouldn?t be hard at all to find any of those instances
This part: ...is outright stated in her UFO profile.
As for everything else, there IS a huge distinction. Miko, Tenshi and Mamizou were/are showing those sides of them from the start while Byakuren hides it like it's never been a thing. I guess that looks too much like hypocrisy, no matter whether she just tries to overcome it and fails or is legitimately still feeding her selfish side.
Yeah, because bringing her back story from 1000 years ago to interpret her current action, is totally not cherry-nitpicking at all
Like, how dare she changes after 1000 years? Since she acts different from how she acts 1000 years ago, she is clearly being a hypocrite.
She's the only one who tries to look better than she is without acknowledging her negative side at all. That's called hypocrisy and nobody likes it. Why is that so hard to understand?
I say she?s bad, and if she dares to act in good manner, then that?s deceptive and hypocritical since she is only allowed to act accodingly to my horrible interpretation of her.
...like, that?s not even how hypocrisy works, You tell me how any of this is not accusatory.
Again,just have to bring this quote up, since it?s such a good example of ?people disagree with my interpretation are all ignorant or dishonest?
her fanbase either completely missed it or willfully discarded it and went full Sarah Huckabee Sanders when talking about her with people that knew the truth.
The fact is, all this ?truths? are completely flimsy allegations that so far has held so little ground. There?s more canon evidence of her being good-natured (even in AoCF), than all of this accusatory based on the most recent revelation of ?Gasp, her exaggerated dreamworld version exhibits laziness!?
If anything, considering it being the least malicious version of everybody?s other Dreamworld versions, thiswould be an evidence for her more positive nature, not less.
Yet all of these accusation still sticks, don?t you see just how this doesn?t somewhat suggest that there is somewhat of an intense purity testing with the utmost scrutiny aimed unfairly specifically toward Byakuren going on here?
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Look, at this point everyone can agree that Byakuren isn't "the pure and pristine Youkai Jesus". A lot of people thought she was, with different people abandoning that view at different points. Some never saw her that way in the first place. Some realized she isn't that way around SoPM or HM. For some, AoCF was the last nail in the coffin.
My point was that, since I thought of her that way, I really really liked the character. Now that I realize that she isn't Youkai Jesus, and I can see how she actually is (a flawed individual, whether good or bad), I no longer like the character as much. It's not that I think Byakuren is a shit character. It's that I no longer see her as the most awesome character in the series.
I don't think ANYONE here is saying that Byakuren is a horrible terrible person. Your argument stems around the idea that people are talking trash about her, but nobody was. They were basically saying (in a more polite way) "it took you this long to realize she's not Youkai Jesus? She's done XYZ i games ABC to show that she isn't, and really has never been". Even now nobody's saying that she's a terrible person, in fact several people have said they appreciate her more because she's not an idol, she's imperfect but she's trying to overcome her flaws.
This whole Byakuren bashing argument is silly, because nobody was saying she's bad in the first place. While the question of "is she a presenting herself as a saint but deep down she's feeding her selfishness, or does she feel selfish impulses and still tries to overcome them" is still kind of up in the air, at this point there's really no way of saying for certain.
I guess I should have prefaced by saying I've voted for Byakuren as my #1 since I started voting and now she's, like, #4. And using that statement about assholes might have given people the wrong idea. But still.
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Frankly, I was more surprised by Doremy's vs. mode comment implying that Byakuren had successfully abandoned most of her desires through her Buddhist training. She's been more successful than I had thought.
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I don't think ANYONE here is saying that Byakuren is a horrible terrible person... Even now nobody's saying that she's a terrible person
All the dialogues I?ve quoted, CyberAngel constantly calling her hypocrite base on a profile of her 1000 years ago, isn?t bashing?
Some realized she isn't that way around SoPM or HM. For some, AoCF was the last nail in the coffin.
Yeah except this train of thouht in itself, is again, one of slinging allegations and searching for negatives out of thin air
Like I already said in the dialoguw, if anything, AoCF was positive for her, not negative.
Also Everyone is wholly focus on a gag dialogue in a dreamworld scenario, yet convienently ignore a genuine instance, where Miko her long rival who constantly talk trash of her, and someone wih the ability of deep inspection on an individual?s desires, actually sticks up for her and recognise defending her genuine character when Futo tries badmouthing her.
Of these 2 instances, the fact that a gag dialogue is taken with more serious consideration, than an actual genuine character growth moment, shows just how skewed the prioritzation is when people still actually think AoCF somehow negatively impact her character.
(And even in SoPM, most of the new allegations people were slinging at her were also already hotly debated in past threads.Thus, it would abe misrepresentative to conclusively consider SoPM as a definitive black mark on her character
While the question of "is she a presenting herself as a saint but deep down she's feeding her selfishness, or does she feel selfish impulses and still tries to overcome them" is still kind of up in the air, at this point there's really no way of saying for certain.
Yeah, and the issue here is that the notion of such a question that so contradicts canon, can even be entertained seriously, base on evidences that are mostly speculative... already show just how misrepresentative this clique of ?Byakuren interpretations? could be.
Sure, Byakuren is not a perfect saint, nor has she ever claimed to be so... but the issue here is that all the evidences everyone here use to bring-about that fact, is deeply fallacious
EDIT: And yeah like Clarste said.
So many instances of dialogue in AoCF adds a positive implication to her character, and yet it?s the gag dialogue from an exaggerated dream scenario is what people choose to focus on, just goes to show just how skewed the prioritization of ?debunking her characters? are
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I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. You said Byakuren isn't 100% pure and perfect, but then when someone said "I finally realized Byakuren isn't 100% pure and perfect" you flipped out at him?
What even is your interpretation of Byakuren anyway?
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Let's ask this then; what are people alleging? That Byakuren isn't Youkai Jesus? (I'm using that term rather than "perfect, incorruptable, etc etc etc" for brevity's sake). You yourself have already admitted that she's not.
Look at it from my perspective. I'm not focusing on her negative traits and ignoring her positive ones. I'm acknowledging that she HAS negative traits that I hadn't acknowledged before. You've already accepted that she's not youkai jesus, but I hadn't, and now I am. I'm not trying to debunk her character, I'm acknowledging that my interpretation of her character (as a Youkai Jesus) was wrong, and that your interpretation (as a flawed, but still possibly good, individual) is right.
You seem more upset by the fact that it was AoCF that got me to say "she's not perfect" than the fact that I'm saying "she's not perfect". You seem to think that everyone suddenly wants to call Byakuren a witch, when in fact most of us have only been saying she's not an angel.
Sure, Byakuren is not a perfect saint, nor has she ever claimed to be so... but the issue here is that all the evidences everyone here use to bring-about that fact, is deeply fallacious
While I hate to use this as an argument as it feels kind of cheap, I have to say. Even if in hindsight we can see "oh, Byakuren never really tried to present herself that way", she kind of was set up that way during her introduction. As was pointed out, "Youkai Jesus" was taken pretty seriously pre-SoPM. It didn't become a meme until ZUN made it obvious that she wasn't that way. A lot of people, myself included, really did think she was a perfect saint for a loooong time. The reason I hate to say this is because... "if you weren't around back then, it makes sense you wouldn't know that" sounds a bit derogatory.
It's kind of like the whole Nitori thing. Pre HM, fans treated her as the super shy and cutesy type, because her MoF debut was misinterpreted that way, and the only contradiction we had was Akyuu calling her a bad person. However, after HM and the mangas made her very clearly not that kind of person, everyone laughed at themselves for thinking that way in the first place. Likewise, Byakuren was heavily misinterpreted as a "perfect saint youkai jesus" type character for a long time, and it's only in hindsight after lots of additional works that we can see the fandom misinterpreted her. For some of us it just took longer than others.
As for Cyberangel, again, you're taking things very out of context. Byakuren wasn't a perfect saint 1000 years ago. She still isn't a perfect saint. Nobody's "judging" her or calling her satan because of that. On top of that, even in their first post, they said "whether Byakuren's still feeding her selfish side or trying to overcome it, the fact that she hides that side of her seems a bit hypocritical".
But even if you weren't taking things out of context, there's no reason to get so upset at me or kilga or half the people here about it.
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It's kind of like the whole Nitori thing. Pre HM, fans treated her as the super shy and cutesy type, because her MoF debut was misinterpreted that way, and the only contradiction we had was Akyuu calling her a bad person. However, after HM and the mangas made her very clearly not that kind of person, everyone laughed at themselves for thinking that way in the first place.
For what it's worth, Nitori also acted like a jerk in SA, although maybe it was a little subtle.
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For what it's worth, Nitori also acted like a jerk in SA, although maybe it was a little subtle.
Yeah, but until ZUN beat us over the head with it in HM and WaHH, a lot of people still didn't accept it. Subtelty doesn't work hahahaha. SA and SoPM were easy to find excuses for.
Likewise, the hints about Byakuren not being Jesus in her debut were practically nonexistent. As we go further along the timeline they become more and more apparent and harder to deny.
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I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. You said Byakuren isn't 100% pure and perfect, but then when someone said "I finally realized Byakuren isn't 100% pure and perfect" you flipped out at him?
Yeah, she isn?t pure and perfect because it is within her official character, a practitioning monk who still strive for monk-hood daily. It shouldn?t even be a fact that needs to be debated
But the people here argues that ?she isn?t perfect? because ?she did this and that that can be somewhat interpreted negatively, so I am going to conclusively decide that this is the canon evidence why she is flawed?.
Just because the premise of what you are getting at is correct, that doesn?t mean the path you use to arrive there is guaranteed to be sound
You seem more upset by the fact that it was AoCF that got me to say "she's not perfect" than the fact that I'm saying "she's not perfect". You seem to think that everyone suddenly wants to call Byakuren a witch, when in fact most of us have only been saying she's not an angel.
Yeah, I wouldn?t mind so much if SoPM was the ?mind changing revelation?, since let?s face it, a lot of the allegation in there can certainly be suspicious even when they are not conclusive
But for AoCF, the game that actually positively reinforce her positive traits, is the game that you actually get negative interpretation out of, due to a gag scene, is just completely unjust.
If anything, HM was more defaming to her characters than AoCF ever was, and I wouldn?t even bat an eye if people were to say ?HM is the game that makes me find Byakuren questionable?
While I hate to use this as an argument as it feels kind of cheap, I have to say. Even if in hindsight we can see "oh, Byakuren never really tried to present herself that way", she kind of was set up that way during her introduction. As was pointed out, "Youkai Jesus" was taken pretty seriously pre-SoPM. It didn't become a meme until ZUN made it obvious that she wasn't that way. A lot of people, myself included, really did think she was a perfect saint for a loooong time. The reason I hate to say this is because... "if you weren't around back then, it makes sense you wouldn't know that" sounds a bit derogatory.
I was around back then, and my stance still remains: It?s a meme
She was never set up for more than anything but a striving practitioner monk who is close to sainthood (though depends on which objective definition of Saint, she kinda fits). But even so the fact is that all the ?evidence? people have used to debunk her supposed ?virtues?, is groundless
I don?t have issue with people saying she is flawed, I have issue with the evidences that are used to arrive at that conclusion
And as you are saying, if this is really was the fan interpretaion problem alone, then what?s with the person specifically calling her a hypocrite and lying, when she was never the one making those grand claims?
As for Cyberangel, again, you're taking things very out of context. Byakuren wasn't a perfect saint 1000 years ago. She still isn't a perfect saint. Nobody's "judging" her or calling her satan because of that. On top of that, even in their first post, they said "whether Byakuren's still feeding her selfish side or trying to overcome it, the fact that she hides that side of her seems a bit hypocritical".
Yeah, that?s wrong.
Firstly, the claim of ?Hypocritical? would only be applicable if she claims to be lacking of such flaws, which she never claim so, making the claim entirely flawed by definition
Second, all the evidences for this supposed ?selfish side? of her is either farfetched, or ain?t there in the first place.
It is CANONICALLY stated base on the official ZUN title given to her ?The Nun who overcame 8 Suffering?. Base on the title alone, by definition, this supposed ?selfish side? claim directly contradict a canon source, since part of the definition of overcoming the 8 sufferings, is overcoming desires, personal wants and needs.
This is why I said these claims completely fall apart when paired with Canon material.
Thirdly, for any claim that she could be deeply selfish inside with ulterior motive and is trying to hide it, this once agains contradict with the VERY Canon premise of her being: and feats
-A being who communicates with Buddhist saint, and receives blessing, by definition, needs to be a wholly virtuous individual
-She can communicates with Buddha saints, and receive their direct aids in form of blessing and summonings in battle, The claim that ?she could be secretly malicious? fals appart under such feats.
-Her virtues hasve also been recognised by fellow gods and saint figure of different religions (Kanako from Touhou 12 ending, and more recently Miko recognising her characters in Miko ending)
All these canon reasons alone cause a lot of allegations regarding her ?purity test? to completely falls apart. Yet it would still indeed be reasonabke to still make the claim that she still has flaws, and is imperfect. Yes, that is still a reasonable claim since she is still on the practitioner path.
But to use flaw evidences, speculations, and sheerfalsehood, that falls apart when analyse against pre*established canon, to prove that point instead, is what I have issue with.
TL;DR:
+She is stiill imperfect and flaw: Yeah, that?s reasonable
-She is so because this evidence here of dubious quality: I take issue with that
But even if you weren't taking things out of context, there's no reason to get so upset at me or kilga or half the people here about it.
Despite the tone, I am no upset. I am merely pointing out the arguments here that are simply wrong.
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Now, now, get a cup of coffee and relax, Paz.
Calm down, take your fingers off the keyboard and let others reply to your comments before typing out more.
To be honest, I think you're being too judgmental on the people in this thread.
From their point of few, you're a fan that suddenly came in to defend Byakuren's character because some people in this thread said something bad about her, even though it isn't as severe as what you claimed they said. And that strays from the topic of this popularity poll
Reading through your posts, it comes off like you were pent up with people from 'other' social media(like FB, Tumblr, or 4chan, where shitposting happens 24/7) talking trash about Byakuren and then exploded when you read another comment that skirted on that topic in this thread
Now, I don't blame you for it, but you're directing it to the wrong people
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This is... really getting out of hand.
I just thought that what dream Byakuren said was funny and that's about it.
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It's not my fault you have shit taste :V
Joke's on you, I am lately all about the 193.
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The real tragedy here is the fact that 4chan Teller fell 6 places. And only 4 of those places went to new characters.
Then again, after his characterization in AoCF it's understandable.
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oops i wrote a lot
The whole reason why the dream world selves exist as a thing is to bring out the most impulsive and extreme versions of those characters. Obviously it's hyperbole, that is the point. But it's hyperbole based on parts of those characters that already exist; you can't have a hyperbole without a baseline. With high consistency, the strategy of defending Byakuren tends to come down to misdirecting or downplaying the text and subtext that exists in the works. The act of making Byakuren's dream self what she is, and not something else, is very good quality evidence that what people have been reading for the past several years has not been coincidence or unintentional. The dream selves of every character are not very surprising as extreme extensions of themselves. I don't think much new information is being given precisely because I see these things as having already been established in one way or another. Claiming the dream world selves mean nothing just because it's funny hyperbole would be incredibly foolish and smells more like trying to ignore information because it doesn't align with preconceived notions, especially since it supports the readings of past works that also conveniently tend to be downplayed or dismissed.
It's not like I have any stock in Byakuren having some of these flaws and "need" her to be flawed because I want to keep that interpretation of her; that makes no sense, I gain nothing from that. I like Byakuren, I think she's complex and a very interesting character. Talking about character assassination seems to make the accusation that people are invested in bringing the character down or making others dislike her or something, when first of all I see no reason to want to bring her down, but secondly I don't think having certain flaws that make her a bit sketchy means that she's a bad character or that people should dislike her. That's a big difference to when people are defending a character they like, because that can look a lot more like they're actually defending their personal image of the character and their investment in that interpretation, especially if why they like the character is closely tied to the subject of criticism. Suggesting that other people are criticizing a character because they're somehow invested in that "negative" idea of the character, rather than it just being their neutral reading of the works, feels like projection. Meanwhile someone consistently dismissing what other people find worth criticizing and saying that's just their reading of the works, feels more like wanting to paint their vision of the character they like on the original work as though that's the true author intent, because they want their image to match the author's.
Relatedly, I don't think people disliking a character (or not being able to like a character) should be dependent on whether or not you dislike them "as a person". Particularly in Touhou, but kind of generally in media. It's part of writing narrative-driven fiction that you set up things so that the audience gets certain emotional reactions to characters that prime and cue them to how they're supposed to view the character. You're primed that the bad guy is the bad guy because they do bad things, as the most simplistic example, which is also why if the real bad guy wasn't someone you were primed to see as the bad guy, it's considered a plot twist. In these cases, especially in video games, the work benefits from you disliking the character "as a person" because the narrative is structured around those points, such as the resulting catharsis when a villain is defeated. But disliking the character "as a character" because you dislike them "as a person" is pretty much the most basic of reasons for dislike because all that happened is that you were manipulated by the writer to react how they intended. This is why disliking bad guys because they're bad guys is dumb and instead you hear people talking about how a character is or isn't "a good villain".
I think this is especially true in a series like Touhou; not only because everyone is kind of a flawed dick in various ways, but also because Touhou isn't even really driven by plot and doesn't largely depend on how the audience reacts to create its depth. It definitely does this on small scales, and in some cases when works have larger narratives like FS and Bougetsushou, but not to the extent that like, ZUN would be priming the audience for Kogasa to get her revenge on Reimu for beating her up after smithing her needles, for example. Instead we get things like Reimu gets her comeuppance for forming a get rich quick scheme and failing, because these are character points. So when I see people for example saying they dislike Reimu because she's a jerk, all that says to me is that they have only a surface-level appreciation of characters and the series.
Meanwhile, people can like a character for whatever the heck reasons they want. That can be based on liking them as a person or relating to them, but it doesn't have to; your like of a character can be as arbitrary as anything, and it doesn't have to be tied to the original work at all. Headcanon and interpretations in fanworks are perfectly valid justifications for liking a character and it doesn't even matter because you're allowed to like what you like for whatever reasons you want. This is why it doesn't make sense to me to dislike characters or not be able to like them based on their flaws or negative traits. It's all just a part of building well-written and complex characters, and the reasons you like a character shouldn't be negatively affected by other people pointing out their flaws in the original work, because tightly coupling your like of a character to how they are presented in the original work (especially an ongoing work) seems unhealthy and unstable.
Small essay? I'm also not accusing Paz of anything here, some of it might be on the mark or not, but I think he has fine intentions that I just happen to disagree with (you can reply privately to me if you want). I'm mostly 1) defending the dream world selves as meaningful, 2) defending my own criticism of Byakuren as neutral and not ill-intended, 3) arguing that presenting criticism of a character and trying to defend a character you like from criticism tends to have different levels of bias, and 4) miscellaneous commentary on liking/disliking characters in media and how it applies to Touhou because it's relevant to the immediate discussion and character popularity as a whole.
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I will confess I missed CyberAngel's post in my review because I stopped reviewing at this post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21238.msg1379030.html#msg1379030), which contains an impassioned defense against an attack that had not yet happened to that point in the thread. I don't necessarily agree that CyberAngel's post is "bashing" Byakuren but I can see how the second half of it would be taken that way.
That being said, this is the official end of all current nonsense surrounding the 41st-most popular Touhou in this thread. We are all moving on to other things.
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What I want to know is why Cirno is least popular EoSD character, other than the ones that don't even have official names.
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Yeah, thats odd. With how "meme"-y the character is and the amount of portayal she got, you could think that she would at least be on the top ten. As much hype as tanned Cirno got, the attention was short lived.
Then again, she didn't get a vote from me either so I can't be bothered. :V
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What I think is interesting is how this is the first Works poll that has another fighter (Antinomy of Common Flowers) above Touhou Hisoutensoku.
Yeah, thats odd. With how "meme"-y the character is and the amount of portayal she got, you could think that she would at least be on the top ten. As much hype as tanned Cirno got, the attention was short lived.
Then again, she didn't get a vote from me either so I can't be bothered. :V
Maybe she's one of those character many people like, but not that many really bother voting for.
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What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is how all of the new characters from HSFS pretty much crashed and burned, while Shion debuted at 15th.
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I'm not well versed enough in the nature of these polls to say for sure, but could the fact that HSiFS came out 6 months ago while AoCF came out a few weeks ago have anything to do with that?
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The polls are usually half a year after game releases. AoCF is an exception, which may be why it's overshadowing HSiFS.
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I predicted that Shion would do well in the poll (mainly because of Japanese voters), but it's kinda sad that there's this huge gap between Jo'on and Shion. It's obvious why Shion got so many votes, but personally I don't find her as any kind of a memorable character at all (not even based on design!). At the end of the day, people are still going to make
poverty jokes
with Reimu.
Also I agree with the Cirno discussion, because although she's my second-favourite EoSD character, there's no chance of me voting for her in the polls.
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That and the fact that Shion is a poor starving moe blob (or at least gets depicted as that from the fanbase), and we all know how popular those are. :derp:
HSiFS needs some time to get established as a main part of the series. It feels new, but not sparkling new and doesn't have this (kinda) nostalgic feel to it yet. Whereas AoCF was just released and despite the many flaws, was well recieved. Also, AoCF didn't bring to much to the table with two new characters. The older ones had their fans already.
Another thing: It's sad to see that the number of votes are going down significantly each year.
2016
Points: 320015
Number of 1st Place Votes: 42419
2017
Points: 264779
Number of 1st Place Votes: 35443
2018
Points: 227872
Number of 1st Place Votes: 30493
Can't be helped but it still pains me.
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Cirno's been at that spot for the past five years, having dropped off rather precipitously after her minor appearance in DDC. Don't know why, but that seems to have been a break point for some reason. As has been said, her recent appearances in Fairies last year and Hidden Star this year didn't budge her at all, so there's something that isn't clicking on the JP side.
What I want to know is, how Rumia got to this point. Sure she dropped a spot to Shion's new appearance this year, but she's been slowly crawling up the rankings year after year. If it was just Little Reimu hype or something, I'd imagine it to be a sharper jump. Heck, I haven't even seen an increase of Rumia arts or stories to associate with this. But there she is.
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I was a little disappointed to see the HSiFS cast not break the top 40 too, but I agree that it may simply take time for them to click with the fanbase. It's worth saying that fighting game debut characters get more initial characterization due to the amount of dialogue and story modes than almost any other character, so you could say Jo'on and Shion have a head start on the HSiFS cast despite being much newer. I think it's safe to say that we have not seen the last of a lot of the HSiFS cast, so I say we should give them until their next major appearance to judge how they fall with the fandom - after all, just look at Doremy's boost after AoCF.
Another thing: It's sad to see that the number of votes are going down significantly each year.
2016
Points: 320015
Number of 1st Place Votes: 42419
2017
Points: 264779
Number of 1st Place Votes: 35443
2018
Points: 227872
Number of 1st Place Votes: 30493
Can't be helped but it still pains me.
It is a little sad to see the voting turnout decrease, but I don't think that means Touhou is losing its edge by any means. There's just a lot of other works that divide attention, like the ever-present KanColle and F/GO. In terms of quality and production, I'd argue Touhou is as strong as it has been in years, and the fanbase still quite vibrant. And really, we should follow ZUN's example. Just as he has said he'll continue making Touhou no matter how popular it is, so long as we all continue to enjoy Touhou and all it's done, I think that's what is important.
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HSiFS needs some time to get established as a main part of the series. It feels new, but not sparkling new and doesn't have this (kinda) nostalgic feel to it yet. Whereas AoCF was just released and despite the many flaws, was well recieved. Also, AoCF didn't bring to much to the table with two new characters. The older ones had their fans already.
I don't see that happening. What I think happened with the HSFS crew is this:
1) No character is memorable. None of them seemed to have clicked with the fanbase, nor did they generate any fan-memes either.
2) No one is really connected to each other. There aren't any significant cast herds in HSFS, nor did they connect to any previously established ones either.
Another thing: It's sad to see that the number of votes are going down significantly each year.
2016
Points: 320015
Number of 1st Place Votes: 42419
2017
Points: 264779
Number of 1st Place Votes: 35443
2018
Points: 227872
Number of 1st Place Votes: 30493
Can't be helped but it still pains me.
I think the Touhou fandom has drifted into what can be called a Generational state. There's still the core fans, but they prefer things that were popular when they became fans, and that seems to be what was popular when MoF and/or SA was new.
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I don't see that happening. What I think happened with the HSFS crew is this:
1) No character is memorable. None of them seemed to have clicked with the fanbase, nor did they generate any fan-memes either.
2) No one is really connected to each other. There aren't any significant cast herds in HSFS, nor did they connect to any previously established ones either.
The first sentence sounds very much like your personal opinion, which doesn't necessarily reflect how the HSiFS cast was received by the fanbase as a whole.
Some like them, others don't, and that's no problem, to each their own.
Okina has the best final boss fight in all of 2hu what're u talkin about
One point though: the amount of fanart for the HSiFS cast is only crawling up slowly and fanart for both Jo'on and Shion are quite literally skyrocketing, suggesting a better reception among the fans. While this can be used as a vague indicator of how popular a character is, it's worth noting that everyone can/does appreciate a character they like in different ways, not only in producing fanart.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean with "cast herds", but going by the context, I guess that they're sort of significant groups of characters that have visible connections to each other and the established lore.
There are certainly games with large distinctive groups of characters that share visible connections between each other (like in EoSD (Scarlet Devil Mansion), SA (Palace of Earth Spirits), UFO (Myouren Temple Crew) and TD (The Taoists, with some additional Myouren Temple members)) and there are games where characters are either loose individuals or scattered in smaller groups/pairs (most notably MoF (different inhabitants of the Youkai Mountain and the Moriya Shrine), DDC (Grassroots, the Tsukumos and Raiko, Shinmyoumaru and Seija), LoLK (the moon rabbits and Sagume, Doremy, and the invader trio) and actually also HSiFS).
However, while the HSiFS characters don't have any particular connections between each other (except Okina-Mai-Satono), they actually do connect pretty well with established lore, with each character having a certain degree of familiarity to the protagonists or other existing characters (Eternity-Cirno, Nemuno-Aya, Aunn-Reimu (with Aunn having been a komainu statue's divine spirit before Okina gave her an animated physical appearance through the magical energy through her portal doors), Narumi-Marisa (Marisa mentioned once in IN that she put "funny hats on stone statues" in the Forest of Magic, which happens to be the place where Narumi is encountered and that Narumi is an animated stone statue (Jizo)), and Okina-Yukari/Okina-Kasen (all are sages, among other things)), which actually evokes an atmosphere of familiarity instead of alienation.
Speaking of which, I'd argue that the LoLK cast is the most detached from the established lore and characters, literally none of them are living in Gensokyo, much less originating from there. They only came into the spotlight for one game because a couple of them have caused trouble that prompted the heroines to go investigate, and that's about it (except for Seiran, Ringo and Clownpiece), thus potentially eliminating chances of possible future interactions between them and existing characters (and thus also preventing additional canon expansion), which I think can't be said at all about the HSiFS cast.
We'll have to wait and see.
The polls are usually half a year after game releases. AoCF is an exception, which may be why it's overshadowing HSiFS.
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Tried to post from my phone and the message got eaten. Jimmy basically said what I was going to say.
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HSiFS is one of the better games in terms of how characters were introduced and their relationship with the game's overall themes, story and heroines. ZUN has been getting better at it as of late. It's much better in that regard than, say, IN or MoF.
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The problem with HFiFS is, as someone else in the internet said, that the only plot relevant character is Okina. Stage 1 to 4 are just random people you meet while you're wandering aimlessly. They're all the stage 1-2 bosses of other games. Satono and Mai are technically relevant, but they're basically just Okina's servants, and they don't have enough personality to stand out from their master.
And then, like said above, they lack a notable cast herd (character groups, basically). Aunn has the luck to be involved in Hakurei Shrine both in canon and fanon, and she's one of the more popular. The rest? Nemuno is explicitly a loner and doesn't associate with anyone. Eternity is grouped with the fairies, who are pretty unpopular themselves outside Cirno, and Cirno is usually paired with Daiyousei. Narumi's only notable association is with Marisa, and her role (fellow magician living in the same forest) is pretty much filled by Alice already.
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Eternity could easily join Team 9 if people bothered. Nemuno is part of the Youkai Mountain ecosystem, which is pretty interesting in its own right. Narumi can join Alice and have a trio. None of these are insurmountable obstacles to anyone interested in them, the problem is getting the fans interested when they're already set in their ways. Daiyousei is perhaps the most egregious example: fans essentially made her up from whole cloth in order to provide a countrbalance to Cirno. And now that Eternity fills that same role, they see no need for her, despite the fact that it was clearly a niche they wanted filled.
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Is there anything already known about the rest of the voting? Such as location, age, difficulty etc.
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Questionnaire results aren't up yet. I'll be right on them when they do (if I'm awake).
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Eternity could easily join Team 9 if people bothered. Nemuno is part of the Youkai Mountain ecosystem, which is pretty interesting in its own right. Narumi can join Alice and have a trio. None of these are insurmountable obstacles to anyone interested in them, the problem is getting the fans interested when they're already set in their ways. Daiyousei is perhaps the most egregious example: fans essentially made her up from whole cloth in order to provide a countrbalance to Cirno. And now that Eternity fills that same role, they see no need for her, despite the fact that it was clearly a niche they wanted filled.
Yeah, they could join those groups, but those groups are already well-established for a long time. So using these new characters feel like using them for the sake of using them.
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Questionnaire results aren't up yet. I'll be right on them when they do (if I'm awake).
Aight. (And you're almost always awake. God knows how you maintain sanity (if there is any left :V))
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The problem with HFiFS is, as someone else in the internet said, that the only plot relevant character is Okina. Stage 1 to 4 are just random people you meet while you're wandering aimlessly. They're all the stage 1-2 bosses of other games. Satono and Mai are technically relevant, but they're basically just Okina's servants, and they don't have enough personality to stand out from their master.
And then, like said above, they lack a notable cast herd (character groups, basically). Aunn has the luck to be involved in Hakurei Shrine both in canon and fanon, and she's one of the more popular. The rest? Nemuno is explicitly a loner and doesn't associate with anyone. Eternity is grouped with the fairies, who are pretty unpopular themselves outside Cirno, and Cirno is usually paired with Daiyousei. Narumi's only notable association is with Marisa, and her role (fellow magician living in the same forest) is pretty much filled by Alice already.
I disagree on the fairy bit slightly. Mainly because we recently got a new "fairy" that did prove relatively popular; Clownpiece. Clownpi also has the benefit of also being associated with Junko and Heca. Either way, it kinda makes Eternity's problem similar to Narumi, she's filling a role that someone else has already filled.
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Eternity could easily join Team 9 if people bothered. Nemuno is part of the Youkai Mountain ecosystem, which is pretty interesting in its own right. Narumi can join Alice and have a trio. None of these are insurmountable obstacles to anyone interested in them, the problem is getting the fans interested when they're already set in their ways. Daiyousei is perhaps the most egregious example: fans essentially made her up from whole cloth in order to provide a countrbalance to Cirno. And now that Eternity fills that same role, they see no need for her, despite the fact that it was clearly a niche they wanted filled.
This is why most of the fan works this fanbase makes suck. Memes over logical worldbuilding.
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This is why most of the fan works this fanbase makes suck. Memes over logical worldbuilding.
That's willingfully ignoring most works that don't use memes as their base.
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Yeah, they could join those groups, but those groups are already well-established for a long time. So using these new characters feel like using them for the sake of using them.
Not really. The three faeries were established for a long time and Clownpiece fit with the trio perfectly well. The fact she's from a different world and thus ignorant to a lot of things outside of it blends well with how ZUN brings up folklore, myths and legends. The fact she has a personality enough distinct from the other faeries also allows her addition to not be pointless either. Eternity popped up later in that series too and she could easily fit with either them or Team 9.
The only limit out there is fan creativity and good writing (although I suppose one can make some ideas work regardless of the quality of the writing). From what we can see, I think it's fair to say these things aren't issues. On the other hand, yeah, the idea of just doing that just for the sake of bringing together these characters would defeat the purpose of having fun writing those story, making drawings about it and all that. That's why we get a lot of stuff that covers familiar characters and settings because they're popular and thus people focuses on what they like which is perfectly fine. Still, there's nothing to prevent new team-ups, combination, etc. to work well if a person feels decides to do it.
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I'd say the popularity of the th16 characters isn't that much different from th14 characters' results in their debut poll. The highest-placing character from th14 was Shinmyoumaru at 34, and she was similarly overshadowed by the boss of the fighting game that also came out at the time (with Kokoro placing at 15). I think both th14 and th16 suffer from the same problems where most of the characters are plot-irrelevant and thus not really all that interesting initially, compared to, say, Sagume or Junko where we got loads of backstory up front due to being tied to the plot. At least the th16 characters are better off by the fact that they're still on track to make appearances in future works and get more characterization then. (RIP smartphone-neck Sekibanki)
The "fans liking older characters over newer characters" is probably a factor, too, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing?
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I disagree on the fairy bit slightly. Mainly because we recently got a new "fairy" that did prove relatively popular; Clownpiece. Clownpi also has the benefit of also being associated with Junko and Heca. Either way, it kinda makes Eternity's problem similar to Narumi, she's filling a role that someone else has already filled.
I just want to say that Piece is a way cooler nickname for Clownpiece and it makes me sad that it doesn't seem to have stuck in the fandom despite being canon.
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I'd say the popularity of the th16 characters isn't that much different from th14 characters' results in their debut poll. The highest-placing character from th14 was Shinmyoumaru at 34, and she was similarly overshadowed by the boss of the fighting game that also came out at the time (with Kokoro placing at 15). I think both th14 and th16 suffer from the same problems where most of the characters are plot-irrelevant and thus not really all that interesting initially, compared to, say, Sagume or Junko where we got loads of backstory up front due to being tied to the plot. At least the th16 characters are better off by the fact that they're still on track to make appearances in future works and get more characterization then. (RIP smartphone-neck Sekibanki)
The "fans liking older characters over newer characters" is probably a factor, too, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing?
Exactly. The older characters were once "new" in their lifetime but the fans knew them much longer so of course, they would go to them. Of course, I imagine in all due to time, some of the newer characters will be able to get their time to shine and people will warm up to them. It's usually a transitional thing for characters. They eventually become popular over time when they appear more or people warm up to them.
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I just want to say that Piece is a way cooler nickname for Clownpiece and it makes me sad that it doesn't seem to have stuck in the fandom despite being canon.
I'd like to add on that Larva is the canon nickname for Eternity Larva but I imagine people care even less about that :v
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That's willingfully ignoring most works that don't use memes as their base.
Even those ones tend to be overshadowed by endless memes, and are almost always about characters that are already popular as hell.
Where's a serious doujin/fan fic where Shou doesn't lose the Pagoda and isn't a god damned joke? Or for that matter, one where Eiki is actually portrayed as being tall and the threatening force like she is in canon? Politics in Gensokyo involving the Taoists and the Buddhists? Shou interacting with Jo'on, being an avatar of a deity of generosity?
But instead we, at best, get some boring grimdark SDM stuff or some wangsty "Oh noez yuyu stabbed herself" Yukayuyu backstory.
Sturgeons Law. It's a bitch.
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For one, DYNAMO's works (kinuk) have pretty solid depictions of Shou and Nazrin and range from serious to romantic depending on the book. Not for everyone, and some interpretations are taken, but solid enough.
Really though the works that get spotlight overseas are rather extremely focused because most works go through several layers of selection: getting noticed in Japan, being cosigned / sold in shops, getting imported, getting noticed overseas, getting translated, etc. And 99.9% of sold doujinshi read by foreigners are going to have been scanned. With all the filtering that happens along with the inherent tendency for doujin circles to be niche, tight-knit, and cliquey, of course you're mostly going to find the stuff that makes it through all that; especially so if you don't yourself delve into very specific artists and circles and the people around them. Even if something has the characterization and writing, also having good enough art for the work to get anywhere is another pretty big hurdle that is greatly underestimated. It's one thing to disparage how ubiquitous some kinds of works are and how popular they get, but really all this seems to amount to is "people don't like the things I like" applied to a very small subset of all works.
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This is why most of the fan works this fanbase makes suck. Memes over logical worldbuilding.
I think where it comes to worldbuilding, it's got to start with ZUN himself. Otherwise we'd get a spaghetti-like mess of conflicting fanon and who's interpretation is better.
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Pretty sure they just mean using already-established parts of the setting and bringing them together in creative and interesting ways that make sense. Not so much literally doing the worldbuilding.
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One of the many reasons it's hard to come across good fan work is because if the very nature of Touhou. Touhou is folklore, not a series. Thus, stories aren't about things characters did but things characters do and that means everything must always return to the status quo.
The most consistent works are those that try and mimic this kind of storytelling, but it's also something that doesn't really go forward with the same characters - it's hard for them to develop and be characterized in the dramatic way we are used to. When people try to descend them into dramatic characters and have them share romantic feelings or whatever it is that we love to instill in them, it's always weird, like watching an electrified puppet.
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Just realized there was no option to vote for Mysterious Shrine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUtUB6gV0E).
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Technically, it's not a Touhou music, so it doesn't count into the vote (Like to hear it in game though :) )
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Yeah, they could join those groups, but those groups are already well-established for a long time. So using these new characters feel like using them for the sake of using them.
I blame nostalgia for people not wanting to use new characters more often.
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http://toho-vote.info/result_list_questionnaire.php
Voter Questionnaire
1. Age (13060 respondents)
| < 10 | 14 | 0.11% |
| 10 ~ 14 | 761 | 5.83% |
| 15 ~ 19 | 4560 | 34.92% |
| 20 ~ 24 | 3850 | 29.48% |
| 25 ~ 29 | 2024 | 15.5% |
| 30 ~ 34 | 1077 | 8.25% |
| 35 ~ 39 | 480 | 3.68% |
| 40 ~ 49 | 188 | 1.44% |
| 50 ~ 59 | 67 | 0.51% |
| > 60 | 39 | 0.3% |
2. Gender (13353 respondents)
| Male | 11442 | 85.69% |
| Female | 1911 | 14.31% |
3. Region (12763 respondents)
| Hokkaido | 491 | 3.85% |
| North Tohoku (Aomori/Iwate/Akita) | 272 | 2.13% |
| South Tohoku (Miyagi/Yamagata/Fukushima) | 444 | 3.48% |
| North Kanto (Ibaraki/Tochigi/Gunma) | 634 | 4.97% |
| South Kanto (Saitama/Chiba/Tokyo/Kanagawa) | 3813 | 29.88% |
| Hokuriku (Toyama/Ishikawa/Fukui) | 255 | 2% |
| Koshin'etsu (Niigata/Yamanashi/Nagano) | 471 | 3.69% |
| Tokai (Aichi/Mie/Gifu/Shizuoka) | 1285 | 10.07% |
| Kansai (Osaka/Kyoto/Hyogo/Nara/Shiga/Wakayama) | 1675 | 13.12% |
| Chugoku (Tottori/Shimane/Okayama/Hiroshima/Yamaguchi) | 558 | 4.37% |
| Shikoku (Tokushima/Ehime/Kagawa/Kochi) | 242 | 1.9% |
| North Kyushu (Fukuoka/Saga/Nagasaki/Oita) | 502 | 3.93% |
| South Kyushu (Kumamoto/Miyazaki/Kagoshima/Okinawa) | 313 | 2.45% |
| Outside Japan: East Asia (China, Taiwan, South Korea, etc) | 1258 | 9.86% |
| Outside Japan: Southeast Asia | 91 | 0.71% |
| Outside Japan: South/Central/West Asia | 11 | 0.09% |
| Outside Japan: Europe | 147 | 1.15% |
| Outside Japan: Africa | 10 | 0.08% |
| Outside Japan: North America | 204 | 1.6% |
| Outside Japan: South America | 58 | 0.45% |
| Outside Japan: Oceania | 29 | 0.23% |
4. On what difficulty can you 1cc each game? (Clear with no continues)
| | Voters | Not Played | No Easy Clear | Easy Clear | Normal Clear | Hard Clear | Lunatic Clear |
| EoSD | 11440 | 2502 | 1077 | 1956 | 3900 | 1199 | 806 |
| | － | 12.05% | 21.88% | 43.63% | 13.41% | 9.02% |
| | 21.87 | | | 78.13% | | |
| PCB | 11197 | 2769 | 1010 | 1676 | 3656 | 1187 | 899 |
| | － | 11.98% | 19.89% | 43.38% | 14.08% | 10.67% |
| | 24.73 | | | 75.27% | | |
| IN | 11173 | 2716 | 688 | 1751 | 3760 | 1269 | 989 |
| | － | 8.14% | 20.7% | 44.46% | 15.01% | 11.69% |
| | 24.31 | | | 75.69% | | |
| PoFV | 10767 | 4292 | 747 | 1589 | 2796 | 571 | 772 |
| | － | 11.54% | 24.54% | 43.18% | 8.82% | 11.92% |
| | 39.86 | | | 60.14% | | |
| MoF | 10977 | 3033 | 982 | 1388 | 3620 | 1102 | 852 |
| | － | 12.36% | 17.47% | 45.57% | 13.87% | 10.73% |
| | 27.63 | | | 72.37% | | |
| SA | 10820 | 3354 | 1345 | 1906 | 2819 | 779 | 617 |
| | － | 18.02% | 25.53% | 37.76% | 10.43% | 8.26% |
| | 31 | | | 69% | | |
| UFO | 10725 | 3845 | 1365 | 1584 | 2884 | 598 | 449 |
| | － | 19.84% | 23.02% | 41.92% | 8.69% | 6.53% |
| | 35.85 | | | 64.15% | | |
| TD | 10750 | 3888 | 955 | 1381 | 3050 | 840 | 636 |
| | － | 13.92% | 20.13% | 44.45% | 12.24% | 9.27% |
| | 36.17 | | | 63.83% | | |
| DDC | 10734 | 3983 | 993 | 1531 | 2900 | 723 | 604 |
| | － | 14.71% | 22.68% | 42.96% | 10.71% | 8.95% |
| | 37.11 | | | 62.89% | | |
| LoLK PD | 10728 | 4080 | 1168 | 1544 | 2695 | 524 | 717 |
| | － | 17.57% | 23.23% | 40.54% | 7.88% | 10.79% |
| | 38.03 | | | 61.97% | | |
| LoLK Legacy | 10318 | 4149 | 2991 | 1077 | 1304 | 332 | 465 |
| | － | 48.48% | 17.46% | 21.14% | 5.38% | 7.54% |
| | 40.21 | | | 59.79% | | |
| HSiFS | 10732 | 4445 | 1252 | 1554 | 2431 | 441 | 609 |
| | － | 19.91% | 24.72% | 38.67% | 7.01% | 9.69% |
| | 41.42 | | | 58.58% | | |
5. Currently-subscribed publications:
| Wild and Horned Hermit | 11097 voters | |
| Don't buy | 4141 | 37.32% |
| Buy the tankobon volumes | 6623 | 59.68% |
| Buy the serialization (Febri) | 333 | 3% |
| Forbidden Scrollery | 10748 voters | |
| Don't buy | 5332 | 49.61% |
| Buy the tankobon volumes | 4979 | 46.32% |
| Buy the serialization (Comp Ace) | 437 | 4.07% |
| Strange Creators of Outer World | 10590 voters | |
| Don't buy | 6221 | 58.74% |
| Buy the serialization | 4369 | 41.26% |
6. What draws you into the Touhou Series? (14094 respondents)
(multiple answer)
| Music | 13483 | 95.66% |
| Games | 8251 | 58.54% |
| Characters | 13018 | 92.37% |
| Story | 8920 | 63.29% |
| Universe/Setting | 11630 | 82.52% |
| Derivative Works | 10521 | 74.65% |
| Social interaction | 5550 | 39.38% |
7. When did you get into Touhou? (13710 respondents)
| PC-98 ~ Shuusou Gyoku (2000/12) | 73 | 0.53% |
| SSG ~ EoSD (2002/08) | 155 | 1.13% |
| EoSD ~ PCB (2003/08) | 489 | 3.57% |
| PCB ~ IN (2004/08) | 354 | 2.58% |
| IN ~ IaMP (2004/12) | 292 | 2.13% |
| IaMP ~ PoFV (2005/08) | 161 | 1.17% |
| PoFV ~ StB (2005/12) | 174 | 1.27% |
| StB ~ PMiSS (2006/12) | 242 | 1.77% |
| PMiSS ~ MoF (2007/08) | 797 | 5.81% |
| MoF ~ SA (2008/08) | 1600 | 11.67% |
| SA ~ UFO (2009/08) | 1139 | 8.31% |
| UFO ~ FW (2010/08) | 989 | 7.21% |
| FW ~ TD (2011/08) | 910 | 6.64% |
| TD ~ SoPM (2012/04) | 1204 | 8.78% |
| SoPM ~ DDC (2013/08) | 1164 | 8.49% |
| DDC ~ ISC (2014/05) | 1398 | 10.2% |
| ISC ~ LoLK (2015/08) | 1259 | 9.18% |
| LoLK ~ Old Adam (2016/08) | 915 | 6.67% |
| Old Adam ~ HSiFS (2017/08) | 297 | 2.17% |
| HSiFS ~ Current | 98 | 0.71% |
7. When did you discover Touhou? (Age breakdown)
[...]
8. How did you first discover Touhou? (12996 respondents)
| School, Clubs, Family, or other offline connection | 3401 | 26.17% |
| Online game, Chat (IRC), or otherwise through online friends | 525 | 4.04% |
| Personal site, Blogs, News sites, etc | 470 | 3.62% |
| Pixiv, Nijie, TINAMI, etc illustration sites | 409 | 3.15% |
| 2ch, Futaba, Shitaraba etc online anonymous BBS | 292 | 2.25% |
| Nico Nico Douga (including live broadcasts) | 3176 | 24.44% |
| Youtube or other video sharing sites | 3196 | 24.59% |
| Twitter | 53 | 0.41% |
| Magazines, TV | 58 | 0.45% |
| Doujinshi events (Comiket etc) or doujin circle announcements | 123 | 0.95% |
| Doujin shops or other stores | 221 | 1.7% |
| Rhythm games that have Touhou music in them | 636 | 4.89% |
| Found while looking for interesting games | 436 | 3.35% |
8. How did you first discover Touhou? (Age breakdown)
[...]
9. If you attend doujin events like Comiket and Reitaisai, what are your main activities there? (13550 respondents)
(multiple answer)
| Do not participate | － | － | 6268 | 46.26% |
| Buy official works | 3753 | 27.7% | | |
| Buy doujinshi | 5941 | 43.85% | | |
| Buy doujin music | 4663 | 34.41% | | |
| Buy doujin games | 2828 | 20.87% | | |
| Buy doujin goods | 4080 | 30.11% | | |
| Buy corporate works | 1046 | 7.72% | | |
| Distribute works (as a circle) | 1290 | 9.52% | 7282 | 53.74% |
| Staff | 174 | 1.28% | | |
| Interaction with circles and friends | 2129 | 15.71% | | |
| Performing cosplay | 456 | 3.37% | | |
| Watching/photographing cosplay | 1103 | 8.14% | | |
| Corporate collab events (for rhythm games, etc) | 663 | 4.89% | | |
| Live concerts (when applicable) | 732 | 5.4% | | |
9. Have you voted in the Touhou Series Popularity Contest before? (13975 respondents)
| First time | 4084 | 29.22% |
| Voted past 1~3 years | 6445 | 46.12% |
| Voted past 4+ years | 3446 | 24.66% |
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The results for #6 make me legitimately upset.
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More than half the people play the games, so "hordes of secondaries ruining fandom" thing some people claim is moot. How is that bad, again?
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And just because some people don't enjoy shmups or aren't good at them shouldn't be a barrier to them enjoying everything else about the series.
I am more surprised that the story is as low of a point of interest, but I guess it's quite thinly spread by now between games, mangas, cds etc. that it might not be that easy to keep up with as in a time when the games were the only source of story.
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LoLK Legacy is BRUTAL.
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LoLK Legacy is BRUTAL.
Use Reisen
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And just because some people don't enjoy shmups or aren't good at them shouldn't be a barrier to them enjoying everything else about the series.
Yup. And I'm the perfect exemple of that. I don't like shmups. Or fighting games. But I fell in love with the characters and the setting. All because of a Let's Play of Touhou Mother long ago on Youtube.
Why shouldn't I be a fan? Why should a fan determined by if he or she have or have not played the main thing the series was born from?
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The results for #6 make me legitimately upset.
Quite curious, why exactly?
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2. Gender (13353 respondents)
| Male | 11442 | 85.69% |
| Female | 1911 | 14.31% |
Woah holy shit I didn't know it was that much of a sausagefest.
3. Region (12763 respondents)
| Outside Japan: Oceania | 29 | 0.23% |
yeeeeeaaaahh oceania represent
I can proudly say I am one of those 29 people.
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What I find interesting is that the Music, Characters, and Setting are seen as the series' strengths, while the Games and the Story are the series' weaknesses. And let's be honest here, the social aspect isn't something the series naturally promotes.
Also interesting, with the exception of PoFV, fewer people bother to play the game with each new release.
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Again, by what outlandish logic does something that a clear majority (way over 50%) of the people in fandom like count as a WEAKNESS?
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Also interesting, with the exception of PoFV, fewer people bother to play the game with each new release.
This isn't really the case. The most influential factor here is just that people tend to play the series sequentially, but the point at which people stop getting more games is essentially random. It's incredibly linear and is the same every year.
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Again, by what outlandish logic does something that a clear majority (way over 50%) of the people in fandom like count as a WEAKNESS?
They're also two of the lowest rated traits with only "Social Interaction" getting less votes. Getting less than 70% of the vote when anyone who voted could have picked all options is not a good thing.
Here's one simple truth: A lot of the fans don't really care about the games, just the characters and music.
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This is a silly train of thought. Why the arbitrary number? Let's say top 3 were 99% and bottom 3 were 80%-ish. Would you complain as well because they're lower? Well guess what, some things would be lower than others anyway. And for those categories it's understandable. Bullet hell and fighters aren't the easiest genres to pick up, and all those lore sources ARE pretty complicated to make sense of at first glance. If anything, I'm pleasantly surprised those categories got as high as they did.
tl;dr ITT entitled fans complain about non-existent problems again
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Angel, the only whiner here is you. Literally only one person showed annoyance at the stats. ONE. But here you are, being offended by the idea of people not agreeing with the fanbase's general opinions. You should learn how to type words without sounding like a asshole, is that too hard for you?
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How about everyone stop making assumptions about Kilga's comment and let him explain it? Sure, his overly vague bitterness was uncalled for but there's no need to lambaste him like this.
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I imagine I am upset for the same reasons that anyone else would be upset if the category they considered to be the most important one was so far behind so many other categories. :V It's not like I don't enjoy basically everything that was an option. (Honestly, I have a sneaking suspicious ZUN appreciates and agrees with the top result.)
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Angel, the only whiner here is you. Literally only one person showed annoyance at the stats. ONE. But here you are, being offended by the idea of people not agreeing with the fanbase's general opinions. You should learn how to type words without sounding like a asshole, is that too hard for you?
I'm okay with people having opinions, but in this case it's too outrageous to ignore. A lot of people in the fandom don't care much for games or story? Sure. Except the poll results show that WAY MORE people do care about them. Complaining that it's not one of the highest category is essentially saying "I'm upset because not everyone loves the same things that I do". Entitlement in its purest form. Not to mention a complete failure at interpreting statistical data.
Look, I'm not saying someone shouldn't post their opinions if they disagree with the results. But you know, I'm reserving the right to point out how unreasonable they are. Or is making people self-reflect a crime now?
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I think people would be more inclined to give you the time of day in that regard if you didn't produce the alleged justification for my post out of thin air.
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Not being so needlessly vague would help in the future, thank you.
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Gotcha! I will be sure to write all future posts with the mindset of making sure you in particular will be able to understand them completely.
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I actually agree with him, at least in regards that one post of yours. It's understandably frustrating to be told by many "esteemed members" you shouldn't complain about the fandom at large and then one of them does just that. A bit more elaboration would've been nice just so it didn't come off as pure dislike.
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That's letting the response to what I said color what I said. Setting aside the fact that I am known to not really mince words when I don't like things, if there is ambiguity in something someone says, it's very poor form to take that ambiguity and assume the worst possible interpretation is the correct one.
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I'm okay with people having opinions, but in this case it's too outrageous to ignore.
"I'm okay with people having opinions unless their ones i don't like and made up completely on the spot"
You just can't help but assume the worse from everything.
Just admit it, you were wrong this time, kid.
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There is seriously a fight going on about filthy casuals right now. Y'all should prooooobably calm down. Maybe switch to talking about something else. I find it interesting that HSiFS has such a high rate of Lunatic clears compared to other games. Personally I thought it was actually pretty difficult even with releases (relative to the others of course- pretty much all touhou games are difficult). Same with PoFV, though that one makes a bit more sense given how clearing with any character would count as a clear.
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[...]it's very poor form to take that ambiguity and assume the worst possible interpretation is the correct one.
[...]You just can't help but assume the worse from everything.[...]
...How was my assumption "the worst possible interpretation", again? And if it's wrong, why is there STILL no post to clear up the ambiguity and prove it?
But whatever. If you people don't want to learn from your own mistakes and choose to see my arguments in a strictly negative light then fine, be that way. I'll see myself out.
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I imagine I am upset for the same reasons that anyone else would be upset if the category they considered to be the most important one was so far behind so many other categories. :V It's not like I don't enjoy basically everything that was an option. (Honestly, I have a sneaking suspicious ZUN appreciates and agrees with the top result.)
Which category are you even pointing at? The way currently this post is, it is extremely subject to multiple assumptions. Plus, you're making assumptions yourself by saying "for the same reasons". How do you know that, for example if I would've been upset, it would've been the same reason? Neither you and I expressed this yet so wouldn't this make it an assumption on your end? Hence, to avoid such cases, I even asked you why (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21238.msg1384294.html#msg1384294), because I was genuinely interested and curious without making false assumptions myself.
Also, did you miss this question or just didn't want to answer it? What ever the reason might be, I'll respect it.
On topic generally: To me it feels people are taking both themselves and the results way too serious. Majority of the votes come from the Japanese fanbase, followed up by East Asia. The results speak clearly that there is a high attraction to the Music, Character, Setting and then obviously the derivative works. The votes from Europe and Americas are hardly significant which makes me wonder what you're all trying to prove or point out? I honestly cannot see the added value nor I can understand the silly personal attacks.
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...How was my assumption "the worst possible interpretation", again?
Because you not only assumed my intention was "ugh fucking secondaries", you were so sure of it you actually replied to my post by arguing against the idea of "ugh fucking secondaries" instead of asking me to clarify without attaching any sort of assumptions to your post (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21238.msg1384175.html#msg1384175) (like Helecopter did (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,21238.msg1384294.html#msg1384294)). Why would you so immediately and so strongly assume that my intention was "ugh fucking secondaries", and not, just as one of many possible examples, a Touhou social forum administrator expressing distress that "Social Interaction" came in dead last by a pretty wide margin? (Yes, I'm aware the demographics are different.)
Helecopter: I didn't miss your post, I figured my response was clear and good enough. Honestly, I don't really know how to reword it to be clearer. :(
I have mostly intentionally kept the category I am talking about ambiguous since it seemed more important in the aftermath of my post to demonstrate against the dangers of bad faith assumptions. A teachable moment, if you will. Anyway, my reasons for not elaborating initially were twofold:
* I genuinely did not think my post would be such a lightning rod of discussion and incorrect assumptions; I had figured it innocuous enough that people would read it, either nod or shrug, and move on to more important things. It was blowing off distress steam more than making any sort of attempt to start a discussion.
* That post was made at 7 AM on a Sunday while I was at KatsuCon and was facing ~12 hours of driving to head home later that day, so independent of the above, I was not exactly 100% conscious and focused on making a big deal out of things. :V
I can give a much more elaborate explanation of where I was coming from with that post, but I don't honestly know when I'll have the time to do so. I shouldn't have even written this much right now.
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Q. Can I vote for Rin Satsuki?
A. As a character which does not officially exist, she will not be included.
So that's why i couldn't find her..
then again she's nothing but a line of code in Eosd
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Because you not only assumed my intention was "ugh fucking secondaries"[...]
...That bit was not targeted at you at all. If you took that as an attack, well, then you're the one making groundless assumptions here. I mentioned that mostly just because that was a thing that stood out to me the most, and I figured you'd just correct me if my assumption was wrong.
But hey, good job ignoring that it's not all about you and that my post did spark a discussion with more people on both sides.
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Sure, Jan.
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I find it interesting that HSiFS has such a high rate of Lunatic clears compared to other games. Personally I thought it was actually pretty difficult even with releases (relative to the others of course- pretty much all touhou games are difficult). Same with PoFV, though that one makes a bit more sense given how clearing with any character would count as a clear.
Releases are OP as all hell, so it wasn't surprising to me in the least. Even though some are still obviously better than others, having one or two shots be so good is bound to skew the results somewhat, like a lesser version of PoFV.
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Releases are OP as all hell, so it wasn't surprising to me in the least. Even though some are still obviously better than others, having one or two shots be so good is bound to skew the results somewhat, like a lesser version of PoFV.
That's fair I guess. It's effectively a game with 16 shot types so you have a lot of options to choose from, like PoFV. I think my problem is that I suck with Autumn release and all the others, while definitely strong, don't have nearly as much cheesing potential. Autumn has kind of a high learning curve I think- it's tough to not ram into enemies, but once you learn how it becomes ridiculously good. Except secretly it's just that I suck lol.
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Autumn has kind of a high learning curve I think- it's tough to not ram into enemies, but once you learn how it becomes ridiculously good.
But how do you even keep track of where you are with autumn? It's so speedy... :ohdear:
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I have not really followed these polls over the years, just taken a peek or two sometimes.
It is funny that I was shocked realizing how much Cirno has come down during the last ten years. I am not a Cirno fan, but she?s, like, always been there, belonged to the super-favorites in those circles whose activities I follow. Even last year?s tanned Cirno hype appeared huge to me. Now I am forced to check back and see that less than five hundred tanned Cirno images have reached Danbooru.
Any learned soul care to give me a lecture on the Cirno fandoms of Japan and different western countries?
As for the rest of the results, especially Kokoro?s relatively good ranking warms my heart. ♡
I am also happy for Meiling, Patchouli, Kogasa and Marisa?s rankings.
Yōmu might be overrated at present, but heck, why did they not realize her cuteness level back in the days? And what was it that marked her breakthrough?
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But how do you even keep track of where you are with autumn? It's so speedy... :ohdear:
I don't know about others, but I've played a loooot of ReimuC back in SA, so using Autumn became second nature for me, hahahah!
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But how do you even keep track of where you are with autumn? It's so speedy... :ohdear:
The Shift Key is your friend
hug it until the end